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- [00:01]
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- [00:29]
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- [00:54]
Political Commentator
And I'm afraid that the military right now is a little bit out of control. It seems to be feeding on its own successes of killing the enemy without losing too many troops. How long can this go on? My friends, listen to me. We all have to start pressuring this administration to call it a success and end this before it gets much worse. That's my opinion. I think we cannot afford a wider war. The world can't afford a wider war. And I will tell you right now, if the midterm elections were held today, it would be all over for the Republican Party.
- [01:35]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Hi again Everybody. It's now 5 o'. Clock. In New York this afternoon, the crack up deep inside the MAGA coalition is coming to resemble the movement itself. Crass, blunt, vindictive and notably, historically unprecedented since Donald Trump arrived on the scene. Never in the history of Donald Trump's political rule have the American people observed such public infighting among prominent media savvy card carrying MAGA figures quite like what's happening right now since Trump began the war with Iran. People who have been with him in lockstep since the release of the Access Hollywood tape, all the way through the botched release of the Epstein files and the millions of controversies and offenses in between. People who rallied to his side in the aftermath of the deadly insurrection at the US Capitol on January 6th. We noted in the last hour Joe Kent, Donald Trump's director of the National Counterterrorism center, whose resume includes defending January 6th insurrectionists as, quote, political prisoners and refusing to rescind claims that federal agents were responsible for instigating that attack. That fella resigned this morning from his post insisting that he could not, quote, in good conscience support the ongoing war with Iran. He wrote this, quote, iran posed no imminent threat to our nation and it is clear that we started this war due to pressure from Israel and its powerful American lobby. But that is only scratching the surface of a broader, more bitter conflict that is raging right now. The New York Times today detailed the now vulgar RX rated high profile feud between right wing personality Megyn Kelly and Fox News host Mark Levin. Kelly opposes the war. Levin supports it. Quote, Ms. Kelly herself, a former Fox News host, recently argued that the war was sold to the American people by Israel firsters like Mark Levin. He called her an emotionally unhinged, lewd and petulant wreck. It got uglier from there between these two. We'll spare you some of the granular details of their back and forth along with what parts of the human anatomy found their way into their online insults for one another. But again, the Maga war goes deeper. We started the hour with the most family friendly bit we could show you here of MAGA dissent from Newsmax host. That was Michael Savage who insists, quote, we should be screaming from the rooftops for peace, end quote. Then there's right wing podcaster Tim Dillon, whose opinions include this.
- [04:14]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Here's Pete Hegseth who is a drunk and a failure making a big mess of this war, killing children in Iran. A truly contemptible figure who should resign, war criminal Pete Hegseth, friend of the show. But he really should resign. They they are massacring children in Iran. It is disgusting.
- [04:37]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
They are massacring children in Iran. It is disgusting. Slash friend of the show. 18 days now into Donald Trump's war with Iran and the massive cracks and gaping holes in his coalition are deepening by the hour. It is where we start the hour. With me for the hour, political analyst, host of the Bull Work podcast, Tim Miller is back. Also joining us, president of Media Matters for America, Angelo Carazone. Here at the table, Puck News senior political columnist national affairs analyst John Heilman, who notably dissented. When I said R rated, maybe not R rated, I said X ray, not X, not X. I was thinking of something else that I'd seen online. But the Megyn Kelly, Mark Levin fight is probably like PG13.
- [05:19]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Listen, you on this show, I believe yesterday had a discussion of bull semen. And if you could have, Tim was here. If you could have, Tim was here. It wasn't his fault though.
- [05:28]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
So now I feel like everyone's gonna go to the Internet. Megyn Kelly, micropenis Micropenis.
- [05:34]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
She calls Mark Levin micropenis. Mark and I just, I just we should be, this is, you know, we
- [05:40]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
should pl their fight. We should not here, like at a serious level. We should not decide Nicole them. Right. Like, we didn't use the word they did about each other. This is a story about their hot war.
- [05:51]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Yes. I mean, the story is about much more than their, their hot war. And you know, this. There's a bunch of ways to analyze this, but there's no question. And again, to go back to something you were talking about on the show yesterday and that didn't have anything to do with bull ejaculate was this thing of the fact that there's this rise.
- [06:10]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Can we at least blame snl that word. That was their maha skit, if you wish. Tim.
- [06:16]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Tim wanted to dwell on it though yesterday for a little while. So I feel like I should dwell on it too. It's the, it's that there's in this. The thing that got raised yesterday was the fact that there is this rising tide among young people in MAGA about that is openly embracing Adolf Hitler. The strain of anti Semitism that runs through the right now and that dominates a portion of. Of the MAGA universe that Tucker Carlson gives very clear voice to when he brings Nick Fuentes, who is an open Hitler admirer, on the show. Nick Fuentes is as influential as anybody, maybe a little less influential than Tucker, but with younger MAGA people probably more influential. That piece of the MAGA world is on the rise. And what we are seeing here in this entire story and a lot of these fights, the undercurrent of it is about one of the most serious threats to not just to what used to be called conservatism, what used to be called the Republican Party and what is now Donald Trump's party is this virulent, hateful and increasingly prevalent and deeply entrenched part of that movement. And you cure it in the if you read the entirety of the resignation note, which I won't do, but if you read the entire resignation note, there's not more he goes on. He keeps going back to Israel and misinformation and the basically talking about essentially that there's that Donald Trump and part of his movement have been infiltrated by people with dual loyalties. These are calumnies and smears. We don't know exactly what led to the war in Iran yet. That reporting is yet to be done. But this is not a trivial fight. This is a thing that is about some of the most base hatreds that have animated national socialism, fascism, totalitarianism on the right for the past hundred years and maybe longer. And we're seeing them right now right at the surface of this debate over what's going on in Iran.
- [08:16]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
It also, I think, infuses the attacks on the press for their coverage of Iran with an interesting dimension, Angelo. I mean, the most vicious attacks are coming from the most high profile figures in MAGA world.
- [08:33]
Panelist (possibly Angelo Carusone)
Yeah, because as John noted, there's this incredible undercurrent. There is a cauldron of this sort of, you know, this sentiment that they're tapping into to grow their audiences. You know, Candace Owens is one of the fastest growing online personalities right now. And what she basically does time and again is take the latest news story and somehow connect it back to a thing that she purports to some kind of Jewish conspiracy, you know, and, and you're seeing that play out with the, as you know, to these talkers, I mean, they're, you know, they're, when they're tapping into this, this cauldron, one of the things they're pointing out, many of them are saying is that this is what Charlie Kirk died for. This is why Charlie Kirk got killed for his opposition to war with Iran on behalf of Israel. By saying that your audience grows because you're tapping into the same energy that Nick Fuentes taps into when he promotes griperism and that you see play out, you know, in that Joe Kent resignation. It's gorperism on fancy letterhead. I mean, he is repeating the very same smears and attacks that are that, that you see perpetuated by these figures. And what is actually happening underneath it is that this is where the fault lines are being drawn. So it has short term political relevance. So it has a lot of shadow for it. I love watching them fight. And I can enjoy, you know, two things can be true. I can enjoy them tearing each other apart and what that means in the short term, but also cognizant of what that means in the medium and long term. Yeah, it has some political consequences for Trump and you know, between now and the midterms, but this is actually going to shape the landscape. Well after 2026, this same fault line that blew up back in October between Tucker and Nick Fuentes and their Heritage foundation that JD Vance weighed in on on the side of non engagement, siding with the corporate, saying, sure, they can come to be a part of our movement because he recognized where the power not just is currently grow is, but where it's growing. And that's the key indicator here. That's where the power is growing. And so the twofer here is that by making these attacks, these figures not just get to grow their own appetite, but they get the simultaneous thing of saying, see, we told you not to trust those journalists, those media figures, because they're working on behalf of something else, some deeper, darker, cabal, shadowy network of who owns them or controls them or who they're operating on behalf of. And so that's why not only do you need to come to me to get more truth, but you need to actively reject them. And that's the same narrative that Trump is pushing every single day in his administration to undermine truth, to weaken the First Amendment and free speech in this country and journalism, because we're going to need a lot of that between now and the midterms as he sort of consolidates autocratic control. And that's the last thing I'll say is a bit of irony here is that they're weakening. The one check that will actually be necessary over the next year as Trump continues to get his control and consolidate his power. He doesn't care about their support anymore. Now he's speed running to the other end of that. And that's where it sort of has become sort of a cruel joke. They may be sowing the seeds of their own demise in all of ours.
- [11:31]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Well, let me. That's what I'm gonna follow up with you. I mean, Angela, Trump's not on that side where all the heat is and where all the energy is and where J. Trump. Trump's on the other side. Trump is against Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly on this. And he's standing with Mark Levin, who Megyn Kelly commented on the size of his anatomy. Quote, mark Levin, a truly great American patriot, is somewhat under. Somewhat. He's totally under siege by other people with far less intellect, capability capitalized and love also capitalized for our country. Those that speak ill of Mark will quickly fall by the wayside, as do the people whose ideas, policies, and footings are not sound. They are not maga. I am, I mean, Donald Trump leaning into making this the throwdown for who is MAGA and who isn't. And Angela, just, you know, the only thing that complicates what you're saying is that Trump is on the other side of what you just described on the other side.
- [12:29]
Panelist (possibly Angelo Carusone)
This is going to weaken his power and his influence. We just haven't seen the political consequence of that yet. Right. Because the Republicans, the ones that could hold him accountable and be a check haven't actually responded to that political reality yet. And, you know, we're still early days here. They're still playing it out. There's still choice choosing between this future threat that maybe they think they can manage or harness and the current threat, which that Trump has made it very clear that if you oppose him, he's going to make your life really difficult and miserable. He is on the other side of this, and that's in large part because he is not tapped into the zeitgeist in the way that he typically is. That's where one of Trump's, you know, people call it a superpower. It's not a superpower. It's just he's media savvy. And when he was connected to the zeitgeist, he could be a feedback loop for it. He can pull from it and respond to it, and he can feed it. There are parts that he is doing as a, as a backstop, and it's because of where he gets information from. And we've talked about this in the past. I thought it was very telling that one of the things that he did was push a video on his own account about this is the prophecy come to life. This is the exact thing that Christian Zionists and Christian nationalists are out there excited and engaged about. And, you know, in the media circles that he consumes, they're largely thinking, it's okay, newsmax begin to turn on him, and I think we'll have to see how this plays out. His power is going to be diminished, but that's what happens when you get high on your own supply. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's not more damaging because he is sort of making this calculus that he can brute force his way through and then it'll all work out. But part of the reason it all worked out for him is because all these storytellers that are turning on him would backfill the wild claim that he made and sort of help make it manifest our reality or prop it up, at least for the bastion of supporters. That helped continue to keep the vibes at least tolerable, if not good sometimes for his people.
- [14:12]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
The tragedy in all of this, Tim Miller, is that 13 men and women of the military have died, 200 have been injured, and thousands across the Middle east have died. And because Donald Trump has not seen fit to address the nation. And I'm not saying that that's a thing that makes war better. And I'm not saying that everyone believes them, and I'm not saying that what's been done in the past is what is right and this is wrong. But some of what he's experiencing that clearly agitates him. These are his words responding to his coalition. Civil war is the vacuum that is entirely of his own creation. What do you make of where this story stands today?
- [14:55]
Panelist (possibly John Heilman)
Yeah, look, I think it's head spinning. It's probably head spinning for a lot of viewers kind of listening to us dissect this, because it's like we basically have two factions fighting and it's one set of conspiracy theorists against another, right? Like, it's essentially pro war conspiracy theorists against anti war conspiracy theorists. And at various times, each faction will occasionally touch on something accurate or true. But for the most part, you know, this is, you know, this whole fight is performative, right? It's wwe. And there's like real life consequences that are being experienced, as you mentioned, by the folks that have died or been injured already by this war, but by everybody, the whole world. That's the craziest part about this. It is people in this country for whom prices are going up. That's true everywhere. Europe, Asia, gas prices, food prices, everything is going to be more expensive now. The economy globally is going to get worse because of this war that there's no clear rationale for. And so you have Joe Kent that quits today. And as has been laid out, he's a conspiracy theorist and he mentions in a statement that, like, Israel might have been responsible for the Iraq and Syria wars, which is not true. But with regards to this war, what he lays out in his statement is basically what the Secretary of State and the President have said at times, right? Which is that, you know, Israel took us into this war. And then you have the president responding to his resignation and his spokesperson talking about how Iran was an imminent threat to us. Trump said earlier today something about how if he hadn't done what he had done, we would have been nuked already by now. This is laughable and obviously ridiculous on its face. And so into that vacuum where you have the President of the United States offering nonsensical rationale for this war that's causing real harm, more conspiracy theories are going to proliferate. And so I think that is like we have this sort of fog of war and fog of information right now, and there's nobody that can be trusted because you have an administration that's lying, its most prominent opponents or people that have a history of advancing conspiracy theories. And the platforms where a lot of people are getting information are run by, by folks with an agenda. And there's increasingly a lot of disinformation on there. And so I think that's, you know, I think it's a confusing time for people to navigate like what is actually happening in this war.
- [17:35]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Yeah. And I mean, just to level set, it matters because Donald Trump wins because of these people we're talking about. So Donald Trump is propelled to the presidency for a second time for manipulating people like Joe Rogan, who has the top podcast in the country most weeks. Ben Kelly, who's one of the top news podcasts in the country. Except when Tim Beezer, Tucker Carlson, who is another one of the top podcast in the country. These people all throw in with Donald Trump and they are spooning this toxic mix of disinformation. Conspiracy theories is their daily fare. And so these people matter because gone are the days when endorsements or normal political things make a difference in an election or issues. Heaven forbid, these people we're talking about are why Trump wins the second time. And for Tim Pool, who's one of them, to call Hegseth a war criminal. Let's not breeze past that.
- [18:31]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
It's not nothing, but. It's not nothing. And it's important. But I just. It kind of goes back to a slightly earlier part of the conversation. We were talking about that with Angela, which is, like you said, this thing about how Trump's on the other side. Trump is always only on one side. Trump's on Trump's side. So he's done this thing in Iran for whatever reasons. One of the things we've learned about Donald Trump, he believes in almost nothing. So the notion that he's aligned with the anti Semite conspiracy theorists versus the neocon conspiracy theorists.
- [19:00]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
He said he issued a statement in support of the person accused of having a small penis.
- [19:04]
Panelist (possibly Angelo Carusone)
But.
- [19:04]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Well, yes, I mean, they're so close to saying something that would be offensive by my standards. But here's the thing. He is on the side of the people who are on his side. Mark Levin is defending him right now. He's under siege. He doesn't care if he has a micropenis or doesn't have a micropenis. He doesn't care where he stands on the ideological spectrum, on the right people who are with him right now, he's gonna be on their side because they are on his side. And I will say that the one thing to temper this entire discussion, you know, I think that the cultural influencers, the podcasters, that this is an incredibly important part of creating the kind of miasma, the political miasma that has given sustenance to and buoyancy to Trumpism for a long time. It is still the case that all the polling shows that he's 90% of MAGA Republicans are with him on this war. He is still the defining figure of what MAGA is for now. And it's part of why I think Angelo is right when he says the political consequences of this. In the short term, there will be some. The long term questions of what this does to the right is existential. But I think as long as Donald Trump is still able to basically say what I am for is maga, that will hold this thing together for him. And so far at least, he's losing independents in a really dramatic way. He's losing soft Republicans in a dramatic way. Still got 88 to 90% of MAGA Republicans are still on his side here. So he continues to these are all still satellites orbiting around Donald Trump's son in terms of defining what the MAGA movement is, at least in the short term, at least today and tomorrow, and probably through at least November to the midterms.
- [20:48]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Yeah, all right. No one's going anywhere. Also ahead for us, Donald Trump's vile attack on California Governor Gavin Newsom is raising some eyebrows, not just for how awful and heartless it was, but for the major blunder Trump made that is once again making people question Trump's mental fitness, one of his other favorite things to talk about, oddly. We'll have that for you later. Plus, how not to win an election. Donald Trump's top economic adviser saying the once quiet part out loud, that the pain consumers feel these days is, quote, the last of our concerns. End quote. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [21:28]
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- [21:38]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
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- [21:43]
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- [22:12]
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- [22:44]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
we're back with Tim Angelo and John. Tim, I mean, I guess my question for you is what happens now?
- [22:52]
Panelist (possibly John Heilman)
Well, a lot of it's going to depend on what happens with the war. And I think that some of the negative consequences of the war at this point are inevitable. It's going to take a long time for the price of goods to come back down. Who knows? Exactly. I don't want to pretend to be an expert on what it's going to take to keep the Strait of Hormuz open, but it seems like that's going to be a dicey prospect for a while to come, even if we are successful in that in the short or medium term and what happens internationally and how Trump deals with all that. Does Trump go back to doing silly stuff like focusing on the arc to Trump in D.C. or does he continue to create damage and create harms on people's lives? The reality of the world is going to matter. One political thing I think that has changed though is I felt like four months ago when Angela was talking about how J.D. vance was navigating like the early embers of this feud within maga, which I would call like the MAGA establishment versus America first type folks, which is a lot about Israel and foreign policy. But some other issues, including EPSTEIN, you know, J.D. vance navigated that pretty deftly. I hate to compliment J.D. vance, but like J.D. vance was the, was still the chosen person of both sides, right? Like the Trump loyalist side and the Tucker side.
- [24:10]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
But Trump never laid his hands on him. He was like, eh, we'll see, right?
- [24:14]
Panelist (possibly John Heilman)
But yes, there was a we'll see. There was a we'll see. I'm just saying he's in a challenging position and for a while at least the Tucker people and the more Trump people were both JD Pro. I think that's kind of over now. Look, Tucker had a thing on his show about how the CIA came after him. Joe Kent has already said he's gonna go on Tucker's show after he resigned today. There's going to be a, I think, robust anti war, anti Israel faction on the maga. Right. And so I think that what is certain now that has changed is that there will be a full on civil war going into 2028. I'm not sure which side JD is going to be on in the civil war, but there will be somebody challenging him from one side or the other. And I think that that's pretty clear at this point.
- [24:59]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
You know what's interesting to me, Angelo, is that for years now we've framed a lot of these conversations in terms of measuring Trump's strength or weakness, correlating it to his narrative dominance. He has no narrative control over the war within his own movement. That's why this is a story, right? That's why it's news. He's taken the country to war without talking to the country. He's taken the country to war without tending to his own political coalition. It's why he starts this war with the lowest approval rating in the history of war in the United States of America. 41. The political opportunities abound for any politician on the left, any politician in the center, any politician from a different coalition on the right. And you don't see a lot of activity. He still has a paralytic impact on our politics. Why do you think that is?
- [25:52]
Panelist (possibly Angelo Carusone)
So I think that, and I think we should sort of break this into a little part. So one of his dominance came from the fact that he took the traditional right wing media, the outlets that are always going to be what they are, they're not dynamic. The Fox News is, right, The Ben Shapiro's, you know, the daily wires, they're very fixed. They are on Trump, they're Team Trump. They're doing what they've always done for Trump. And so to John's earlier point when he gave that stat about, you know, Trump's poll numbers amongst MAGA Republicans, how they're so firm. It's because in that part of the ecosystem and that part of the information landscape, it's Trump all the way. He's doing great. But then what made Trump such a dominant figure and why he was able to shape the narrative for all the normies for people that really, you know, the what people consider swing voters. What felt like such an overwhelming shift was that he took all these others, this constellation of maha figures of broadcasts, of the manosphere of conspiracy theorists, and he brought them in, he gave them a good story and then he leveraged that and harnessed that for political power. And so, you know, what, what does that mean? That in practice? Well, one, it means that he that's why he's able to have this backstop. Two, he's lost control of he can't drive the narratives in the same way that he has historically. And inertia is keeping those outlets in Trump's focus. And let's not forget all the threats and attacks. They all want to get their mergers and other things, so they're going to keep things together. And then as you point out, though, there's an opportunity, though it's almost like a pinata burst and nobody's going for the candy. Why not? Why are people not out there? Well, some people are. Tucker is Marjorie Taylor Greene's are they're thinking about how to harness and channel this. And what I'm seeing play out in that landscape and that constellation is what we've been talking about is one of these major opportunities is to pick up that mantle of antisemitism and maybe dust to put a little shine on it, make it more socially acceptable. But to say, see, we told you there was something amiss. These great powers come along to me, and that's the irresistible temptation here that so many consumers have, is that they want to know why? Who's the bad guy doing this? Why is all this bad stuff happening? And somebody's going to come in and capture and harness that. I don't think it's going to be from the left or the center, though, right now, that fault line is where the energy is. And so in order to capture it is that you'd have to get in there and you'd have to jump into the breach. And if you're a Democratic primary potential hopeful, are you going to jump in there and say, no, it was not Israel. Do you want to say that? If you're would you want to make that part of the base, potential base, so, so angry, so upset, because there are a lot of liberals that are going to want to be bought into that or potential centrists that are going to be bought into that. All of the dynamics are shifting, and that's why I don't think you're seeing that play out yet, at least broadly. But it is playing out. Tucker is becoming an increasingly center of gravity for 2028. I don't think we should sleep on Marjorie Taylor Greene either. These are the figures that are beginning to stretch their wings a little bit and build a patchwork of a narrative storytelling engine in the same way that Trump did all the way back 2015 when he leapfrogged Fox for the first time.
- [28:48]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
I Just want to button with this one. Number 6535 we are still talking about only 35% of the country, so we're talking about a fracture amid the 35% who still support Donald Trump. 65% of the country up for grabs. And I forever wonder why more heat and energy isn't spent programming to the 65% of Americans. This next story fits in with that perfectly. How Donald Trump managed to insult millions of Americans and bring up a brand new round of questions about his own mental acuity. We'll bring you that story next. Next.
- [29:27]
Panelist (possibly Angelo Carusone)
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- [29:31]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
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Panelist (possibly Angelo Carusone)
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- [29:44]
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- [29:45]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
No problem.
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- [29:47]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
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- [29:56]
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- [30:05]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
This is very strange, Angie. The one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com
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- [30:45]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Donald Trump has never been known for his cogent linear communication style. He describes himself as engaging in something he calls the weave. But yesterday in the Oval Office, he managed to outdo himself, going from that weave to something more akin to who am I, where am I? And what day is this? All while managing to insult approximately 65 million Americans in the process. Take a look.
- [31:12]
Donald Trump (via clip)
I'm all for people with learning disabilities, but not for my president. I don't want. I think a president should not have Learning, Learning disabilities. Okay. And I know it's highly controversial to say such a horrible thing. The President of the United States, Gavin Newscomb, admitted that he has learning disabilities, dyslexia. Everything about him is dumb.
- [31:37]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
The President of the United States, Gavin Newsom. Okay, if you say so. Okay. It was rich coming from him while sitting at the Resolute desk and appearing to think that Gavin Newsom is the president. For his part, Gavin Newsom responded on social media with a bit of a parody posting quote, now that I, Gavin C. Newsom, am officially President of the United States. Thank you, Donald. I have many big announcements to make. Every American family now gets a tariff and gas spike refund to buy a cheap electric car. The country is now run by someone who can actually complete a sentence. America is now hot because you have a dyslexic president instead of a brain dead. One big upgrade, Governor. Gcn, we're back with our panel. I don't even know what to say.
- [32:24]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
I mean,
- [32:26]
Panelist (possibly John Heilman)
there's.
- [32:27]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
To get analyzed at so many levels. I just, it's worth saying there's like 40 million Americans who are dyslexic. And of course, when Trump says everything about Gavin News Gum is dumb, to equate dyslexia with stupidity is a, is a just, you know, patently false. But that streak of cruelty is a very familiar thing with Donald Trump. And it does seem to open a set of questions that are, I think, being asked more loudly than they've been asked for a long time, which is they've been building over these years. But we see Trump's cognitive decline on display, I think more vividly than ever. I'm surprised how little the press covers, again, the objective metrics of it. There's now been, in the world of linguistic science and people who do research on this, people who look at Trump's diminishing vocabulary, diminishing ability to form complete sentences and coherent thoughts, things that have shown in an empirical way how much they've declined since he first ran for president. Those stories have been written. I'm surprised, I'm persistently surprised that given the backing of real scientists who are looking at that and just saying, I mean, look at the evidence here. It's right here. It's plain in front of your face that he is like a lot of people in their 80s, that he's having some significant mental capacity declines. I'm surprised we don't get more coverage on it on a regular basis, especially given the kind of coverage we saw of Joe Biden when he Was president.
- [33:54]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Why do you think we don't.
- [33:56]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
I think that the. Well, I honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. I think there's a. I think traditionally in our business there's been a reticence, you know, to. Well, we don't want to psychoanalyze people. And I think that sometimes that gets confused between psychoanalysis versus what I'm talking about. When you're measuring someone's vocabulary, that is not psychoanalysis. And I think a lot of reporters don't kind of necessarily make that distinction very well. And it's always been the case that in Biden you could see the signs of his decline because Trump has a lot of energy, manic energy, crazy energy,
- [34:32]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
only when he's awake.
- [34:33]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Well, yes, but this has been part of the problem. Again, we mistake, you know, someone who has crazy persons energy, you know, or like lunatic energy, manic energy, whatever, but big energy. We mistake that as being someone who has their crap together. Right. And it, you know, they're. Whereas if you see someone who looks like they're sort of slowing down, that's easier to point to and say, well, look, you know, Joe Biden seems to be really failing here. He's slowing down. There are lots of ways that people, as they reach a certain point in their life, there are lots of ways in which they fail or they become diminished. And it's. That's kind of ridiculous that people can't understand that there's more than one manifestation of mental or cognitive decline.
- [35:13]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
I mean, Tim, yesterday Trump was sitting next to Mike Johnson and outed a very severe health condition of a Republican member of Congress that had never been made public before, said he was near death, almost dead, would have been dead by June. To John Heilman's point, if Joe Biden had said any of those things, I mean, the world would have stopped. We would have declared a holiday so everyone could stay home and watch Fox News. I mean, what explains the asymmetry in your view?
- [35:47]
Panelist (possibly John Heilman)
He's out there a lot more than Joe Biden is part of it. And so I think that he's in everybody's face all the time. And so that gives him a little bit more control over the narrative, I think. I think that is part of it. I think part of it is kind of one way of what Jon was saying. I asked Jake Tapper this question when he was on the pod a couple months ago, and he said, I think Trump's in a different part of the hospital from the memory ward and there's something to that even if you have critiques about the coverage, there is something to that. But look, I think it's particularly notable on Iran. I mean, you have to be on top of it when you're the commander in chief of a war. And he's given three press conferences, I think, in the last two days where he's been asked about this stuff. Not exactly hard hitting questions. I mean, Peter Doocy was the main questioner in one of the press conferences and he's just all over the place. Like I was saying earlier, he was talking about how we're imminently at risk and how they might have nuked us if we didn't sign that, if he didn't rip up the deal that Obama did. And in addition to the examples you guys gave, he's just very all over the map and doesn't seem to understand what the point is of the war or have the details down about what has happened. And so, I mean, I do think maybe this is a moment for people to check back in on this question given kind of the seriousness of the stakes.
- [37:13]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Well, Reuters, to their great credit, has checked back in with the American people on this question and here's what they said. 61% of respondents in the poll said they would describe Trump as having, quote, become erratic with age. 89% of Democrats, 30% of Republicans and 64% of independents described him this way. Just 32% of all respondents think he has not become erratic with age. When we come back, it's the kind of thing Democrats should be putting in campaign ads between now and November. What Donald Trump's top economic adviser really thinks about the high costs American consumers are paying right now for everything from groceries to gas and housing and just about everything in between. I'll have that for you next. As Americans watch prices soar at the gas station, when they pay for airline flights, pay for groceries, cost of everyday goods, which all continue to rise because of Donald Trump and lately because of the war of choice with Iran. Take a listen to what one of Trump's top economic advisors, Kevin Hassett, said to try to ease the concerns of American consumers and fail miserably while doing so.
- [38:27]
Kevin Hassett (Trump's economic adviser)
The fact is that the US Economy is fundamentally sound and that if it were to be extended, it wouldn't really disrupt the US Economy very much at all. It would hurt consumers. And we'd have to think about, you know, if that continued, what we would have to do about that. But that's like really the last of our concerns right now because we're very confident that this Thing is going ahead of schedule.
- [38:50]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
I mean, angelo, to the 65% of Americans who already don't support Donald Trump, an economic advisor describing economic anxiety and pain as, quote, the last of our concerns is your go sign. I mean, they have now said out loud that they don't give a bleep about economic despair, which is the animating purpose behind just about every political movement in our country's history.
- [39:16]
Panelist (possibly Angelo Carusone)
Yeah, I think that that is the one thing that sometimes Democrats as a whole miss when it comes to the storytelling part of it, is that because Trump is such a, you know, a lightning rod and a singular figure in storytelling, they feel like they always have to attack him. And sometimes the best way to get to Trump, to expose him to his own people is to actually make him responsible for all the things that the people around him are saying which are basically just on his behalf or reflections. And this is it. This guy's saying the explicit part. They truly don't care. You know, Trump may be hints at it sometimes, maybe his body language suggests it, but, but Kayfabe carries him quite a bit. People know he's a character, and so his own people give him a lot of leeway and a lot of, you know, fourth dimensional chess. And again, Kayfabe is real and he's a character to a lot of them, so it's okay. But when people like this guy get out there and do it, it changes the difference. And that's the Trump administration saying, we don't care. And those are the types of ads that they should be highlighting and emphasizing. I bet the overall majority of people that you cited those stats who, who are already feeling it and seeing the pain, they're definitely never going to see that because there's no Fox News on the left. Right. There's no analog to what happens on the right. Waiting for them to turn something like that into a massive echo that everybody then can repeat and reverberate and evangelize. They need to do it. They need to prime the pump. And that's the perfect example of something that they should be starting to spin up that storytelling engine so more people see it and they can connect the dots themselves.
- [40:44]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
And if they decide to do that, here's another dot to connect. Last week, Donald Trump told Speaker Mike Johnson in a private conversation that, quote, no one gives a bleep about housing. According to four sources who heard the speaker recount the conversation. I think polls show everybody cares about, like, everybody cares about housing.
- [41:03]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Yeah.
- [41:04]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
So much so that I think Donald Trump did something on housing. But he must have forgotten about it.
- [41:08]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Yes, he's forgotten about it already. To go back to our prior conversation, Donald Trump doesn't remember.
- [41:11]
Odoo Advertiser
He.
- [41:11]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Remember he went to one of the things he was supposed to when he went to Davos and did that speech about Greenland he was supposed to be unveiling. He did some stuff in the mortgage market. He was announcing these various policies. Of course, people care about housing. But again, you go back to. And I half agree with Angela about this in the sense that Kevin Hassett, that I hear him first, he starts like John McCain, the fundamentals of our economy are strong, which did John McCain no good in 2008 in the middle of the collapse of the American economy. And then you hear him say, you know, consumers should be. Basically said, consumers should be the least of our worries. Yes. And yet, because Trump is so big, because Trump is. And I mean big as in it's. Does anybody in the administration really register with voters besides Trump? And I think for a lot of Democrats, they say, we have had a hard time pinning the tail on Trump the donkey. We've run all kinds of negative ads. He says all kinds of crazy stuff. He says offensive stuff. He says obnoxious stuff. He says stuff that would have been unsayable at any time in our political career. Career. And yet we've run all those ads. And yet he has still been, at least in elections, when his name is on the ballot, not in others. But he's been a juggernaut. Right. We haven't been able to figure out a way to stop him. You think we're going to be able to stop him by putting a bunch of money behind a Kevin Hassett negative ad? No one in America even knows who Kevin Hassett is. I think it is callous. It runs throughout the administration. I do think it's indicative of how they really think about this. But the problem is that Trump is Trump is the. Is the. Is the totality of Trumpism is Trump. And so do we. I mean, nobody pays attention to Marco Rubio as a political mouth. Ordinary Americans couldn't pick Kevin Hassett out of a light, out of a lineup. And Democrats could spend tens of millions of dollars trying to make Kevin Hassett into a poster child for callousness. But Trump gives them 20 examples that are more vivid and more directly on Donald Trump than Kevin Hassett ever will. And so you gotta kind of figure out, where am I gonna spend my dough?
- [43:09]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Tim, I wanna bring you into this. I mean, I. You don't ignore it. I mean, I think this is the person making economic policy because no one, even if you love Trump to death, thinks that Trump is making economic policy. And two, it's not an outlier. The policies reflect this indifference to the consumers.
- [43:28]
Panelist (possibly John Heilman)
Yeah, look, Kevin Hassett also gives off not exactly MAGA American. All right? So having him not care about people I think is pretty vivid. But look, sometimes I think we overrate the political strategist element of this. Like, like the economic consequences of this are going to be disastrous. They're going to be disastrous for consumers. And I think that's going to make the case pretty easy for Democrats to make in the fall.
- [43:50]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Nothing more vivid than seeing those gas prices go up every day.
- [43:53]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Brutal.
- [43:53]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
Forget about Kevin Hazard or Donald Trump. You see that every day for the next six months.
- [43:58]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
Your own message. Tim Miller, Don Heilman, Angelo Caracson, what a pleasure to have all three of you for the hour. Thank you for spending it with me. Cricket Break for us. We'll be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People is essential viewing. He is a familiar face to viewers of this program. He is Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He shares his insight into the latest military developments on this program. But getting to sit down with him and dig into his new book and his career was a real privilege. Listen to what he had to say when I asked him about accusations from this administration that the military is woke by their theory. If you're curious about another perspective, you're what woke is the military woke?
- [44:47]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I am purposely because I want to know about other people when I'm working with them. I think you gain a whole lot of strength from that. Not only just your friends, but also your enemies. You better know what your enemies are thinking. Football coaches do that. They always scout out the other team game tape. Yeah, I mean, you know, it'd be like telling, I don't know, Tommy Tuberville not to have game tapes from, you know, Auburn when he's coaching at Alabama.
- [45:16]
Panelist (possibly Angela or another analyst)
It's ridiculous.
- [45:18]
Host (likely Ali Velshi)
You don't want to miss the entire conversation. We talk about his new book, the lessons on leadership that being in the military taught him and all the ways the current Trump administration fails to learn those lessons. To hear the conversation, scan the QR code on your screen or download wherever you get your podcast. Let me know what you think on Instagram or bluesky. One more break. We'll be right back. You're going to get used to saying this around here. If it's Tuesday, it's Election Day. Tonight, we'll be tracking the results from Illinois and that critical Democratic primary to pick the nominee to run for Dick Durbin's Senate seat. The polls close at 8pm Eastern, 7 Central, and Ali Velshi, of course, will be at the Big Board with all the returns. Don't miss that. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.
- [46:08]
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