Sarah Matthews (4:39)

Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that largely that it this is not anything new when it comes to this erratic posting and him posting unhinged things. I just think it's gotten even worse in the sense that it's a little bit more extreme. In the first administration, we didn't have him posting about wanting to annihilate an entire civilization. And so I think that there's something to be said that it seems like he's lost his fastball and that he's not beating Father Time. Look, you can't beat Father Time. And I think old age is catching up with him. And so he's not as on it and as sharp as he once was. And I think that is also just enhancing the craziness that was already kind of there and bringing it to a whole new level. And we're seeing that play out.

Nicole (5:23)

Sarah, do you think he's cognizant of the questions being asked about his faculties? 71% of all Americans don't believe he has the temperament to be president. 55% of Americans don't believe he has the mental fitness for the job that he has. He seemed to be so focused on those things when he'd constantly take the MOCA test, which is a dementia screen, not really the intellectual flex that he seems to think it is, but with Fox News interviewers and all manner of people. But do you think he's following these polls this time?

Sarah Matthews (6:02)

Yeah, I do. I think that's why he is constantly flexing this cognitive test and bragging about how he aced it, even though it's not really that much of an accomplishment. Anyone could ace it as long as you don't have dementia or onset early dementia. And I think he is following it. And I think he does feel insecure about how the public perceives him and his old age. Look, he was very critical of his predecessor and college him, sleepy Joe Biden and going after his mental acuity. And so I do think that he is following these polls, and that's why you see him out there trying to push back on this narrative. But when he's falling asleep in the Oval Office, in these meetings and posting these erratic, unhinged things on his true social, it's certainly not helping the public perception of him. And if he's mentally sound for the job. And I do think, too, that in the first Trump administration, the, that people were willing to give him a little bit longer of a leash and they tolerated the kind of craziness from him. But we're not seeing that so much in the second administration because I think so many people that voted for him this time around are unhappy with him, as reflected in the polling, where he's hitting record lows of disapproval because people feel like they have buyer's remorse, that they were not, they're not getting what they were promised on the campaign trail, whether that be him getting us into a new war in the Middle east, something he said he wouldn't do, or him not bringing down prices and actually making prices skyrocket even higher, whether that's grocery prices or the price of gas, you name it. And so I think that people aren't going to be as tolerant of this kind of crazy behavior from him when they feel like he isn't doing a good job.

Nicole (7:43)

Can I ask the control room just to put the picture back up one more time of him falling Asleep. I mean, if someone were sitting on the set and fell asleep, I would send a text and ask someone to come out and bring them a coffee. Whose job is it to either kick the press out, Sarah, or kick him under the table? I mean, is it the instructions for. And it looks like Lutnick, Oz, and Kennedy, I guess they pass for our health people these days. Is it one of their job to wake them up? Or what's the. Trump's so obsessed with his appearance. Like, we know from the Atlantic, he didn't go honor troops who lost their lives serving in World War I because he didn't want to mess up his hair. Like, the whole room can see him asleep. Whose job is it in this White House to wake him up or get the press out so we don't have all these images of Donald Trump asleep at his desk.

Sarah Matthews (8:44)

Yeah, it's horrible optics, like you mentioned, and something that he would obviously care about. And I think I feel like it's kind of surprising that, honestly, the press team wasn't there to wrangle the press. Like, they always have a press wrangler who's on site for these types of Oval Office events, and they're in charge of wrangling the media and getting them in and out of the room. And they're usually the person you hear cut the reporters off and they're yelling, okay, time. Time to get out, and pushing them out the door when they feel like the press conference has gone on too long or the president has to get to another engagement. And so you would think that someone on the press team would see. See him falling asleep and would have the thought to think, maybe we need to get the press wrangler in there to cut this short or have someone pass him a note, whatever it is. But obviously that isn't happening. So it's a little surprising that they wouldn't be more on top of it.

Nicole (9:36)

Did he fall asleep in the first term a lot in meetings, or does that appear to be happening more frequently?

Sarah Matthews (9:42)

I think it's happening more frequently. I don't think it's something that happened as often. I mean, if you look back on videos of Trump in 2016, and even throughout his first term, he had so much more vigor in life to him and was always like the Energizer Bunny, in my opinion. I mean, the guy just could run on very little sleep and just go, go, go and hit multiple campaign events in one day. But I don't think you're seeing that as much. And I do think that's Just his old age catching up to him. Look, he turns 80 next month and so it's definitely something that I, I don't think he wants to admit. Obviously, anyone struggles with realizing and accepting the fact that you're getting older and this is job and so I. When you're sleeping for four hours a night, he can't perform in the same way that he once was able to. And so him not sleeping through the night and posting on Twitter back in the day or truth Social now, that's not really anything new. It seems like it's happening more frequently. But then I think that that's contributing to him also falling asleep more frequently in these meetings now because he can't perform in the same way on that little sleep that he maybe once was able to in his younger age.

Nicole (10:57)

Angelo the last couple days I felt like I've had to speak really directly to our audience about why some of these stories matter. Yesterday it was about Joe Rogan's on again, off again relationship with Donald Trump. Megyn Kelly, F Bomb Megan turning on him. This is the same kind of story. So I think that the why this matters to the Democratic experiment and the MAGA moment and Trump's capacity to lay his hands on whatever happens next is because all Trump was really in its most sort of power, in his most powerful form was a brand that he brilliantly cultivated and marketed. And that brand had, I think, two central tenets. One, sort of screw the elites and the system, you know, I'm going to help you get back at all the people that screwed you. And two, vigor. And it was toxic masculine vigor. And that was sort of the synergy with the manosphere. It was tireless work on behalf of the people who signed up for the first thing, you know, to get back to the people that screwed him. It made the Twitter presidency successful, right to the degree that his people nominated him two more times. Without vigor, it all just looks like he's crazy. And poll after poll after poll bears that out. Reuters, Ipsos how has Trump's mental sharpness changed over the past year? 51% think it's gotten worse. 40 said it stayed the same. So no one thinks it got better. Americans who say Trump's mental sharpness has gotten worse. Among independents, 54%. Among all adults, 51%. Intellectual honesty isn't really a thing. We sort of live in a post intellectual honesty moment. But not for nothing, here's Harris Faulkner covering Joe Biden's age.

Chris Hayes (13:17)

He looks more like a disengaged retiree on this one.

Nicole (13:21)

Yeah, you and I are on the same page. Critics hitting Biden over this video, in

Sarah Matthews (13:26)

particular during the Maui Wildfire Memorial service

Nicole (13:29)

where the President bows his head, closes his eyes, many saying that he may

Sarah Matthews (13:35)

have nodded off yet another moment, highlighting the concerns over his age and mental fitness. Look, we're not with him at that

Chris Hayes (13:42)

moment, but we've seen this before.

Nicole (13:48)

I peeked over at Fox a little bit. I did not monitor it all day long, but I didn't see this story covered there.

Chris Hayes (13:55)

No, they're not really talking about it. Right, because exactly the point you made, which is that they're not going to talk about it. Not only because they don't want to upset him, of course, but because it's so deeply cut against the core narrative and the brand that he's built for himself that they've been a part of creating. And you know, there's sort of two dimensions of this story. It's not a cheap shot against the President. I know that's sort of like with online chatter will largely be. And it's really easy and I understand the irresistible temptation to say, oh, you made fun of Biden's age and so now we get to make fun of your sort of falling asleep. But it's actually, it's actually as you noted, significantly more serious than that for, for two components. One is, as you started with, what's going on here. It is different to some extent than his first presidency. He averaged about seven or eight posts a day during his first term. He's, you know, somewhere between 18 and 20 during his second term. He's doing this a lot more. And the substance of those posts are AI generated images and random sort of asides. So it's not only that he's doing more of these types of activities or well, throughout all hours of the night, but the content has gotten weirder. I mean, let's not forget that it was just a few months ago in December where in a span of 5 hours he did 160 posts in rapid succession. Like that's not normal. There's something off about that. So one is what's going on with him. And then the tie in which I think is the really big part of this is how is this being covered and talked about? Because there actually is a problem. You know, it's not just Fox News and the right wing media that's not dealing with this well, the rest of the news media isn't. You know, the New York Times and Upenn did a study on this covered Biden's age 11 times more than they covered Project 2025, the New York Times, or if we look, mediators, did a big analysis of the top five newspapers in the country and how they covered Biden's, compared Biden's and Trump's age. They did 10 times more discussion about Biden's age and acuity than they did Trump's. So they clearly have the skills to sort of ask these questions, but yet they're not doing it now across the board. And so those numbers, when you talk about Trump's poll numbers, that's without actually having even the types of coverage that this deserves. And it does. It's not just, you know, sort of the hypocrisy angle. There's legitimate open questions that the media hasn't pulled in on. So, you know, there are still those mysterious MRIs that he got last year that there's no understanding about. Some of the other health concerns that were raised where the answers don't seem to add up. You don't have to be conspiratorial to actually do journalism and say, wait a minute, we do need to talk about this, because the connection does show what those two pieces are related to. He's doing something different than he did the first term. There is a change there. He's doing more of this. He's spending more time in these random tweet storms, post storms. And then the second part is that the rest of the news media isn't doing the work that they typically or shown their ability to do to press and get an understanding of this. So it is a big story to a degree, because this guy is the president and we shouldn't lose sight of that. But it's also a story about how the rest of the news media is dealing with it. And. And that's how he's able to even limp along with his brand as he is.

Nicole (16:54)

All right, you baited me in my favorite, most favorite way that any guest ever does. Let's talk about the second thing you can actually look at the coverage of. I don't know what he goes by now, but he used to be Kanye west married to Kim Kardashian. Some uncomfortable coverage of his mental health is out there when he posts something crazy. There is copious coverage in entertainment press, and sometimes it seeps into mainstream press, but entertainment press covers it ad nauseam. When an athlete has either a personal health challenge or a mental health challenge. Sports media is deferential at first, but it always gets out and is the topic of a lot of commentary from that sports sort of game Analysis host in broadcast and there is always a lot of print coverage around an athlete thought to be struggling with mental health or sometimes physical health. In our politics, for some reason, we do not know how to cover questions of erratic behavior. We just don't. I mean, it's year 10. Bob Corker 8 years ago tried to pass legislation to limit Donald Trump's nuclear authority. That was the first time in America's history that a person's own party tried to limit a president in their own party's power over the nukes. So at least dating back to 2018, someone in his own party thought he wasn't a steady hand on the nukes. Why is this story a black box? Angela?

Chris Hayes (18:30)

I know there's a lot of reasons. One is people say access and it boils it down.

Sarah Matthews (18:35)

It's too easy.

Chris Hayes (18:36)

Some of it is just a reflex. You say, well, it's gotta be some gambit. You know, they sort of bought into their own brand. They bought into the mythology, they pumped it up so much. And he so successfully marketed this idea of his vigor and his stamina and sort of this, you know, fourth dimensional chess. There's always something there that they just, well, it's got to be part of something. Yeah, he's a little bit out there. He is literally living off of KFE because he is a character incarnate. And so you say, well, that's what he does. So of course it's not unusual. That's what his character is doing. He's playing a character. The other part is some degree of fear. There's a little bit of hesitation. But, you know, everybody wants to preserve the chance of getting that phone call from Trump. You don't want to, you don't want to lose that access. You don't want to lose that relationship. So there's this tension. The story hasn't penetrated a lot of the reporters minds. There's real fear, there's opportunism playing out there as well. And that's going to be on display this weekend. I mean, they're all going to go and get humiliated by him, you know, at the White House Correspondents Dinner and because it's part of some big show. And that I think is at its core though, it's not bad actor or them not knowing how to do journalism. In a way, it's that they themselves are victims of the same, of a very similar type of thing that a lot of the people who bought into Trump when they voted for him are. They bought into this idea even though they've been the ones to help sell it, and they haven't been able to disabuse themselves of it yet.

Nicole (19:57)

All right, we're going to keep digging here. I want to bring the rev in. He's known him longer than all of us. This is fascinating. Thank you so much for turning our conversation in this direction, Angelo. Also ahead, Trump's Justice Department caving in the face of another failed retribution investigation into one of Donald Trump's favorite political enemies, Fed Chair Jerome Powell. He stood his ground against a weaponized DOJ and for now has prevailed. Plus, the US Military is burning through munitions at an alarming rate in Iran. We'll tell you what that means. It leaves America even more vulnerable because of Donald Trump's war. There's and later in the broadcast, a soldier was arrested for profiting on classified inside information for the capture of Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro. We'll get to that huge security risk and all the reporting on that story when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Sarah Matthews (20:52)

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Eugene (21:22)

Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade,

Simone Sanders Townsend (21:26)

tussling over politics and policy when she

Eugene (21:28)

worked in the White House and I reported on it.

Sarah Matthews (21:31)

And now we're friends and colleagues. And on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioned ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

Eugene (21:39)

Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too. Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.

Sarah Matthews (21:54)

Yes, I think, I really think that

Nicole (21:56)

his mental capacity needs to be examined. His rhetoric has been shocking to many

Sarah Matthews (22:02)

Americans and people around the world.

Simone Sanders Townsend (22:05)

That's what I'm talking about. The way Trump's behaving, way more erratic. His speech, you know, is not coherent all the time. You can't deny this is happening.

Chris Hayes (22:15)

And these screens that come out nightly, you know, at 2:00am or 4:00am or, you know, whatever time Trump decides to vent, you know, without, without oversight, you know, it's, it's, it, it highlights the level of his insanity and depravity you

Nicole (22:30)

think he's just gone?

Chris Hayes (22:31)

I think he's gone.

Nicole (22:33)

You know, there's some reporting that came out from the first term when people like Sarah were there. Don McGahn, I think used to call him Kong, like King Kong because he was crazy. We saw General John Kelly with his head in his hands at the good people on both sides. Now infamous press avail. I mean, you saw the signs of the stress of sort of trying to rein him in. So the idea that he was always like this, but there was some effort to shield it from the public is believable. But for his allies and his, his former insiders to describe him as insane with diminished capacity is stunning.

Simone Sanders Townsend (23:14)

I would add to that that it ought to be frightening to the public because we're not just talking about a normal guy that is diminishing because of age or mental capacity. We're talking about the President of the United States who has access to nuclear codes. Who. We just saw a story this week that they said they stopped him from doing something. The chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Suppose if there's nobody there to stop him, where's the check and balance? And when do they decide to stop him from doing things? Or if he sleeps in the middle of a cabinet meeting and wakes up and agrees to something that is against the interests of the people. I don't think we're looking at the danger of having somebody that is sitting in that seat of power that may not be operating with his full facilities, facilities that makes real decisions. So he rolls over and threatens that I'm going to wipe you out of civilization. And that's funny or that's something. Is he getting enough sleep? No. This is some dangerous stuff to have somebody there. And do we have this continue until it's too late to turn this around? And I think that's why even some of his ex supporters are starting to wave the flag here. Because we may be in for a serious situation that we find could have been avoided had this been highlighted. It scares me when I read that story this week that this guy has access to these codes and can he overrule people? I mean, what does that mean when you have him sitting up at 2 o' clock in the morning going absolutely berserk.

Nicole (24:56)

What do you think about Angelo's point that the press that cover him have complicated considerations? Those of us who talk about him have sort of been issuing warnings for 12 years. So I'm not sure who the new recipients are to those messages. Why do you think that it's Difficult to find either press willing to cover what is before our very eyes or Republicans or current staffers willing to say what their encountering and dealing with. I mean, he's falling asleep in meetings that are televised. I can only imagine what he's doing in meetings that are not televised.

Simone Sanders Townsend (25:33)

I would raise that a lot of the media has different motives. One, they want access to the White House and they're afraid if they bring this up they won't have access at all. But then that's not true journalism. They really falling apart on their job. Some are afraid of their corporate offices who may have a merger purging or something, a pending or something like that. When you look at the fact that we all can see people compromised for telling something that clearly puts the country in danger, then the question has to be should they be where they are? I mean, if you are a journalist and you're not going to tell the truth, then why should we respect or regard your journalism or going across the board? And if you're a senator, if you're a member of Congress and you're sitting up there and a member of Congress or senator or cabinet member and see a guy that can't stay awoke during

Nicole (26:31)

a meeting, a televised meeting, I mean, we don't know what's happening in the closed door meetings. But these are the only the meetings they invite the press into.

Simone Sanders Townsend (26:38)

No president is invited to press in. And he said, I mean at what level are you beyond being embarrassed if not concerned? You should be concerned. But what do you have such low esteem that you'd sit there and watch this man sleep through you making a report and act like you see what you're seeing. So what are the caliber of people that are there? And I think that that's going to be the essential question, Nicole, is at some point you have to question how you see yourself, whether you're in the media, whether you're in government, that you allow something, that this is this far out of place continues to happen and you don't even say anything. Then you've got to look at yourself and say, do I have any integrity and courage?

Nicole (27:22)

Yeah. I mean Sarah, to be totally honest with you, I used to ask that question about people like how do they stay and work for Donald Trump when he talks about Mika Brzezinski bleeding or Megyn Kelly with blood coming out of her eyes. How do women especially stay when he's so misogynistic? But I would say in your defense, we know where your line was, right? You quit, you walked out when he Threatened all of democracy. And you're out here helping people understand him. Who are the people that have your old job? And can you answer the rev's question? Why do they, why do they stay? And does he view them as loyal if they're part of putting these images out? I mean, the Iranians see these images. How are they supposed to feel scared of the threats of a man who can't stay awake through his televised meetings? Yeah.

Sarah Matthews (28:10)

No, to your point, the Iranians are using it and they're posting memes about him, making fun of him. And I think that that speaks volumes, that they're kind of using our culture against us and trying to make fun of the president and doing so on the world stage. But I do think that it is disheartening when I look at the folks who decided to stay in the Trump administration and decided to stay by his side past January 6th. Like you outlined, though, there were plenty of other reasons of why you one should maybe not go work for Donald Trump. And I was always under the. I guess I was always under the belief that I wanted people of good character surrounding him in the first administration and guiding him and being those guardrails for him. I think of the John Kelly's, the Mark Espers, people like that, and men and women of integrity. But then obviously, in a second administration, you don't have that. You just have people who are completely blinded by their own ambition or they're just completely brainwashed and they've just drank the Kool Aid. I mean, I look at someone like Caroline Levitt. This is someone I worked with in the first administration. She was an assistant press secretary, the position below me when I was a deputy press secretary. And I believed her at that time to be someone of good character. But now when I look at her, I can barely recognize her. But I think that some people just make that decision that, you know, they're going to drink the Kool Aid and go all in, or they just, they know I can't speak to her mental state or some of these other folks. But I do believe that in Washington, there are a lot of people who know better. They know that Donald Trump is not acting in the best interest of the American people. They know he's acting crazy. But they choose to prioritize their own ambition over doing what's right for the country, and they choose to not push back on him. I don't think you're getting a lot of those people in the second administration because they want to protect themselves rather than serving the American people. What a good public servant should be doing.

Nicole (30:11)

It's amazing though that they can't see the path that you've charted and others who've spoken out. It's the more honorable one we are grateful to get to talk to you. Sarah Matthews Angelo Caracson I'm always grateful when you grab the wheel. Thank you my friend and Rev, thank you. Thank you for starting us off today. Be sure to catch more of the Rev this weekend, Saturday at 5pm Eastern for politics Nation. After the break, a small win for Jerome Powell and the rule of law. We'll tell you about it next.

Eugene (30:46)

Your phone is your lifeline. Calling your kid to say goodnight, waiting on a job call back, or just sending a meme to your best friend when it's been that kind of day. Wherever life takes you, the Text now app keeps you connected for free. Get a real phone number, unlimited talk and text and 5G data for your favorite apps, all for $0 a month. No fixed contracts, no hidden FE, no panic when bills pile up. Just phone service that's there when it matters most. TextNow, we've got your back. Download TextNow in your app Store today. Wireless plans require the purchase of a sim card. Visit textnow.com for terms and conditions. Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade,

Simone Sanders Townsend (31:20)

tussling over politics and policy when she

Eugene (31:22)

worked in the White House and I reported on it.

Sarah Matthews (31:25)

And now we're friends and colleagues and on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

Eugene (31:33)

Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it too. Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.

Nicole (31:48)

The Rule of Law eked out a victory over Donald Trump's attempt to weaponize DOJ against his political enemy, the Justice Department closing one of their doomed retribution cases. Acting U.S. attorney Jeanine Pirro announced her office is ending the criminal probe into Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell over renovation costs at the central bank's headquarters. The case was already on life support after a federal judge quashed the DOJ's subpoenas. Pirro's hand was finally forced by members of Donald Trump's own party. They have rebuked the politically motivated investigation into Powell. Here's Republican Senator Thom Tillis at the confirmation hearing for Donald Trump's pick to replace Powell earlier in the week.

Chris Hayes (32:34)

The problem that I have here is that we had some US Attorney with a dream or assistant US Attorney thinking it would be cute to bring Chair Powell under An investigation just a few

Eugene (32:47)

months before the position was going to be open. This happened this year.

Chris Hayes (32:53)

Normal course and speed. Here's how it works at the Fed. February or March, May 15, the term would have expired, we'd be having this hearing, you'd be getting confirmed.

Nicole (33:06)

In closing the case, Pirro, who's the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, asked the Federal Reserve's inspector general to investigate something they're already doing, Jerome Powell's request. Pirro also left open the possibility that she could reopen the probe if there is somehow any criminal wrongdoing finally found. I want to bring in former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI and national Security intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg. And joining me at the table, executive editor and New York Bureau Chief for the Economist, Charlotte Howard's back, Michael Feinberg. If you are so willing to drop a probe because of political pressure of the stripe of confirming your political pick, clearly there wasn't any evidence or factual predicate for criminal investigation in the first place. And I guess the only thing that's interesting about that is that we're now hearing that from Pirro's office and the Department of Justice.

Eugene (34:02)

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that this is the best possible outcome for a situation that never should have occurred in the first place. It was clear to everybody, including the federal judge who refused to authorize DOJ's subpoenas, that this was not based on an actual factual predication that a crime may have been committed, but was in revenge for Powell refusing to tailor economic and monetary policy to Trump's wishes. And the fact that they were willing to drop it simply in order to make a political deal shows how empty and hollow the investigation and prosecution was to begin with. But we should note, it's not a good sign that we live in a world where whether prosecutions go forward is dependent upon political deals. That's something that happens in kleptocracies and autocracies. It is not something that should be happening in a nation supposedly dedicated to the rule of law.

Nicole (35:11)

So to that point, this is Senator Elizabeth Warren's statement on this development. Quote, this is just an attempt to clear the path for Senate Republicans to install Trump's sovereign puppet, Kevin Warsh, as Fed Chair. Let's be clear what the Justice Department announced today. They threatened to restart the bogus criminal investigation into Fed Chair Powell at any time, while failing to drop their ridiculous criminal probe against Governor Lisa Cook. Anyone who believes Donald Trump's corrupt scheme to take over the Fed is over is fooling themselves.

Michael Feinberg (35:43)

So I think that this is a reminder, Senator Warren is right, of course, that this extraordinary probe into Lisa Cook over alleged false statements on her mortgage application continues and is indeed the subject of a case that the Supreme Court has considered. But I think that there are a few things to tease out there. One, of course it's right. It's extraordinary that the president has tried to do this and is trying to do this. Second that so far at least the system has stood up to him. You know, the judge said these subpoenas are ridiculous. Jerome Powell took the extraordinary step of calling out that this was an empty probe that seemed to be motivated to try to pressure him to adjust interest rates to the president's liking. You know, I don't think the case against Cook is going to be successful. So what does this all add up to? Right? I mean, I think that the analysis is correct, that even when the system proves resilient, as it does seem to be, there's a nefarious impact of the president trying in the first place when

Nicole (36:41)

the judicial branch holds back the executive branch and the sort of impotent congressional branch.

Michael Feinberg (36:45)

And Thom Tillis, you know, Thom Tillis, of course, a Republican who's decided not to see seek reelection in part because Donald Trump was going to put someone up to challenge him in the primary. You know, you see him there unleashed in the way. I think many Republicans probably agree with much of what he's saying, but feel too intimidated by this president to voice their own opinions.

Nicole (37:06)

It's a good point. It also, though, I think points to how they've successfully moved the Overton window. Right. Like this is the second story, not the first, because the other checks held. It's still an outrageous abrasion. All right. No one's going anywhere. Much more on that. On the other side of a short

Sarah Matthews (37:23)

break,

Nicole (37:28)

Let's check out your independence and your courage.

Chris Hayes (37:31)

We'll start easy.

Nicole (37:32)

Mr. Warsh, did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election?

Chris Hayes (37:37)

We try to keep politics, if I'm

Nicole (37:39)

confirmed out of the federal. I'm just asking a factual question.

Sarah Matthews (37:42)

I need to know, I need to

Nicole (37:43)

measure your independence and your courage.

Chris Hayes (37:46)

Senator, I believe that this body certified that election many years ago.

Nicole (37:51)

That's not the question I'm asking.

Sarah Matthews (37:52)

I'm asking, did Donald Trump lose in 2020?

Nicole (37:55)

And I'm suggesting you in 2020, the

Chris Hayes (37:57)

Fed mandated your huge inflation problem and you certified the election.

Nicole (38:04)

So that's Kevin Warsh. He is Donald Trump's pick to lead the Federal Reserve. I have not said this before, but I Will say this now. I know Kevin Warsh. I worked with Kevin Warsh in the first Bush term. And he's smarter than the average sock puppet. He is no Caroline Levitt. He's. No, I don't know who the guy is. Someone Hassett. I mean, he's not an idiot and he's not a brainwashed fool. And I know we talk a lot, Michael Feinberg, about how the rule of law is being demolished with sort of the swinging wrecking balls by Pam Bondi. But I think it dies a thousand more deaths when intelligent and once honorable people can't answer a question. Who won the 2020 election?

Eugene (38:54)

Yeah, I don't mean to insult a former coworker of yours, but I really

Nicole (38:58)

don't worry about me.

Eugene (39:00)

I do think there are really only two possibilities here. One is he's willing to trade away his integrity and honesty in exchange for his personal ambition and personal power. Or the second is that he is a coward who is afraid of offending the President. I really don't see anything remotely honorable or defensible aside from that, that would explain his refusal to answer what is a factual question.

Nicole (39:36)

I mean, the other piece of this, Charlotte, is he's going to be in charge of one of the last truly independent power centers in our democracy. And to project that weakness around the world seems like a tragic loss for the body itself.

Michael Feinberg (39:54)

Yeah, I mean, I think in a few years time you could have a whole series of Shakespearean tragedies written about the people with integrity and intelligence who prioritized a given personal goal over principle. I mean, I don't know Kevin Warsh as you do. I imagine that there's a part of him who thinks I'm a competent person. I think I can leave the Federal Reserve. Well, and if this is part of what it takes to get there, I'll do it. And I think that kind of calculation is deeply regrettable because you don't have models in public life or vanishingly few models in public life of people who are within this party who are willing to make a different articulation about what they perceive to be true about facts. And I do think the Federal Reserve needs to have someone leading it who is above reproach, whom markets can trust, who investors around the world can trust. And I do think that that statement is undermining of that broader projection of integrity.

Nicole (40:53)

Well, I mean, you're being diplomatic and respectful. Let me be more blunt. Nobody respects cowards. And I think there is no way to look at a person who's intelligent, who can't answer the question, who won in 2020, Michael, other than to conclude that they're comfortable being seen as a coward. I mean, Donald Trump has a 30% approval rating, 71% of Americans. He lacks the temperament to lead the country. And before he starts, he's throwing in with that. Those are not the marks of a strong leader of anything.

Eugene (41:32)

No. But it's what we're left with as this government fires forces to resign or otherwise humiliates anybody with a single ounce of integrity or courage. I suppose there is an argument these people may be making to themselves that if they don't step up, somebody worse will, or they are uniquely qualified to handle this role in spite of the sacrifices they may have to make. But, you know, de Gaulle sort of famously said, the cemeteries are full of indispensable men. If we have a leader and an administration without integrity, without decency, without the sort of sober temperament that our nation has always been able to rely upon, then no single individual, particularly one who's not willing to answer a question truthfully at his own confirmation hearing, is going to make a single iota of difference. So the only thing that any of these people are doing is sacrificing their integrity. And we get a reminder every other month or so, as we recently saw with Pam Bondi, that sacrificing your integrity is still not going to be enough to satisfy this administration. The minute you are no longer useful to them, no matter how much you have abased, demeaned and humiliated yourself, you will be out on the street without a second thought. So just do the right thing from the beginning.

Nicole (43:05)

Yeah, it's really like the last bad option.

Sarah Matthews (43:09)

Right.

Nicole (43:10)

You know, tell the truth, be honorable, and let the chips fall where they may. Because as perilous as that might have seemed to someone like Kevin Warsh, it may, to your point, turn out to have been the best bad option he had. We'll see. Michael Feinberg, Charlotte. Howard, thank you for being here today. After the break for us, a check on Howard Lutnick's promise to sell thousands of Trump Gold Card visas. We'll see how that's to be going. Going.

Chris Hayes (43:42)

If you have a green card, which used to be a green card. Yeah. Now, gold card, you're a permanent resident of America. You can be a citizen. And by the way, yesterday I sold a thousand. Wow.

Nicole (43:57)

Just around 1,000. That's pretty clean, Neat, tidy little story. And we know you don't always tell the truth in interviews. That was Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick pitching Trump's Gold Card visa program last year where you can secure your immigration by paying for it, paying the Trump administration for it. The going rate starts at $1 million and Trump said it could pull in as much as $5 trillion. So let's see where we ended up on that.

Eugene (44:27)

So they have approved recently one person, and there are hundreds in the queue that they are going through the process.

Nicole (44:35)

So let me see. Not great at math, but one plus hundreds still doesn't get you there. And what they have so far is one one person. So I guess when he's under oath, he does tell different stories. Math comes out a little different. After the break, a new threat to our security and preparedness thanks to the war in Iran. A very short break and deadline. White House continue that for that. Don't go anywhere.

Chris Hayes (45:03)

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Cryptocurrency and the golden age of scams.

Eugene (45:10)

Crypto markets operate 24,7, not like the regulated financial markets and they're gamified and all these things. And so for that small percentage of the population that develop gambling addictions, this stuff is like crack cocaine. It's really, really bad.

Chris Hayes (45:23)

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.