"It doesn’t even seem like he believes it anymore than we do"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House with Nicolle Wallace

Episode Title: "It doesn’t even seem like he believes it anymore than we do"
Date: May 7, 2026
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Key Guests: John Heilemann, Angelo Carusone, Kirsten Powers, Dan Goldman, Michael Schnell

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Episode Purpose & Main Theme

This episode unpacks the deepening disconnect between Donald Trump’s rhetoric—especially repeated claims of a “Golden Age of America”—and the lived economic reality of most Americans. With economic anxiety high and polling dire for Republicans, Wallace and her expert panel break down why Trump’s message is not resonating, the compounding political implications, and the broader context of corruption, self-dealing, and rule-of-law erosion inside the White House. The show also touches on new reporting about the FBI’s politicized investigations and congressional scrutiny of Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick’s ties to Jeffrey Epstein.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s "Golden Age" Rhetoric vs. Economic Reality

• Trump’s Repeated Claim: He continues to declare this the “Golden Age of America” ([00:40]).
• Nicolle’s Response: Wallace dryly observes, “I think most of us would settle for silver or bronze at this point...judging by Donald Trump's tone, he's not even that into it anymore. Like, I don't even think he thinks it's golden at Mar-a-Lago any more than any of us do.” ([01:05])
• Polls Indicate Pain:
  • Gallup: 55% of Americans say recent price increases have caused financial hardship, 15% call it severe ([01:30]).
  • 81% report financial strain due to gas prices from the war with Iran.
  • 63% blame Trump, including 32% of Republicans.
  • Americans “are really suffering and feeling real financial pain because of Donald Trump’s decisions,” Wallace explains ([02:30]).
• No Acknowledgment from GOP/Trump: Wallace: "The Republican’s plan is to sneak in $1 billion for his golden Ballroom. That's it." ([04:50])

2. Lack of Empathy & Failed Messaging

• Angelo Carusone: Suggests Trump’s “Golden Age” may have always just meant “more gold for him”—“He can't really see anything beyond the nose on his face”; points out Trump’s campaign was built around economic promises he’s now failing to even acknowledge ([05:17]).
• Comparison to Biden: Biden at least tried “I feel your pain” messaging; Trump neither admits the crisis nor explains any justification for economic hardship ([07:00]).
• Lock-In Effect Until Election: Carusone warns the “politics are locked in,” with little room for Republicans to recover before midterms ([08:52]).

3. Political & Social Disconnect

• Wallace on Trump’s Personality: Asserts Trump is “oblivious to real economic anxiety…also indifferent and a little angry that people are mad...he has no ability to understand what that is like for a family” ([09:43]).
• Heilemann on Erosion of Support: Trump’s support “amongst the faithful” has dropped by 15 points—a new phenomenon ([10:58]). Predicts growing discontent as economic hardship overtakes Trump’s base: “Today's the best day it's going to be for a while...gas prices are going to be worse” ([11:36]).
• Question of When GOP Faces Consequences: Heilemann: “They haven't just gone along with it. They’re enthusiastically embracing all these nonsensical things like this new ballroom...Parts of his base are saying okay now this is too much for me is a real inflection point” ([12:54], [16:43]).

4. Off-Kilter Presidential Moments and Their Impact

• Trump’s Oval Office Exchange with Children: Direct audio shows Trump rambling about trans athletes in women’s sports and awkwardly questioning a child’s sports abilities ([13:59]–[15:12]).
  • Wallace: “Vibes wise, I mean, the guy is just a walking liability wrapped in absolute off kilter weirdness” ([15:12]).
  • Powers: “...it's just so bizarre, right, that this is the President of the United States and this is what he's choosing to have a conversation about with a child. There’s no bottom.” ([15:24])
• Heilemann: “The consequence of that is...there's a bunch of people that are like, I don't want to carry any water for him.” ([16:43])

5. Corruption, Self-Dealing, and the “Cost, Chaos, Corruption” Critique

• Self-Enrichment Out in the Open: Trump openly enriches himself—ballrooms, golf courses, deals for his kids, cryptocurrencies—while Americans struggle ([20:03]).
  • Carusone: “It's not just that they think he's out of touch. They think he's like spitting in their face. And I think that is a sin. Out of touch is something you can fix. Contempt for voters is unfixable.” ([23:18])
  • Wallace: “The self dealing, the grotesque money grab from the American taxpayer at a time when people...are trying to stretch their very dollar as far as it can possibly go, is politically criminal.” ([24:17])
• Political Consequences Predicted: Heilemann: “The rejection will be intense because it's gonna be a big crash off of a big high, and they're gonna reject that exact dynamic.” ([25:38])

6. Republican Complicity & Lack of Opposition

• Historical Parallels: Wallace and Powers lament Republicans’ continued refusal to stand up to Trump, calling it “immoral behavior” even if it skirts legality ([27:25]).
• Questioning Democratic Advantage: Powers points out that the Democrats “are up in the generic ballot, but they're not up as much as they should be, considering what's going on...there has to be something for people to vote for also, not just against.” ([28:22])

7. Abuse of Power—FBI and Rule of Law

• New Reporting: FBI’s Politicized Investigations
  • Coverage of FBI Director Kash Patel investigating a journalist who wrote unflattering stories ([29:40]–[31:04]).
  • Dan Goldman: “He is simply abusing the power of his office to get retribution against someone who wrote something unflattering. And it's just more and more of the same politicized, weaponized stuff that Donald Trump, Todd Blanche, Cash Patel are doing that is devastating and destroying the Department of Justice.” ([31:04])
• Undermining Public Trust in Law: Goldman worries this erodes both justice and confidence, potentially unraveling democratic and economic stability ([32:34]–[34:18]).

8. Congressional Investigations & Optimism

• Accountability: Dan Goldman expresses hope that retaking the House will allow real investigations into corruption.
  • “I think part of what people seem to think, they give him a pass is because he does it all out in the open. Well, there’s a lot he does not do in the open. And when that comes out, it is going to be very bad…” ([35:58])

9. Congressional Oversight: Lutnick & Epstein

• Secretary Lutnick’s Testimony: Claims limited dealings with Epstein and denies knowledge of improprieties, though explanations for presence on Epstein's island are “a force of the English language” ([38:00]).
• Transparency and Accountability: Democrats on the oversight committee voice skepticism about Lutnick’s explanations ([39:00]).

10. The Big Picture—Hope for a Political Reset

• Sarah Longwell’s Reflections on Trump’s Legacy:
  • “Trump's failure, catastrophic failure as a political figure, that should taint everybody who propped him up...that they pay for that with a certain amount of shame going forward that forces the society to recalibrate around better things.” ([41:16])
  • “I'm looking forward to the Democratic primary because my hope is that somebody fierce and kind is able to like, feed the good parts in people and bring us up from there.” ([41:46])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nicolle Wallace:
  • “Actually, judging by Donald Trump's tone, he's not even that into it anymore. Like, I don't even think he thinks it's golden at Mar a Lago any more than any of us do.” ([01:05])
• Angelo Carusone:
  • “What Trump meant when he said it was going to be the golden age of America...he was never thinking about anything besides, I’m going to have, everything's going to be gold here at the White House.” ([05:17])
  • “He can't really see anything beyond the nose on his face.” ([05:24])
  • “They think he's like spitting in their face. And I think that is a sin. Out of touch is something you can fix. Contempt for voters is unfixable.” ([23:18])
• John Heilemann:
  • “...amongst the faithful. But that's a big change. And it's the first time you've really seen any indication that the edges are starting to fray. And that's new, that's a new twist.” ([10:58])
• Kirsten Powers:
  • “It's completely immoral behavior to be doing these kinds of things, enriching yourself, spending taxpayer money on things that are not needed while people are suffering...” ([27:25])
• Dan Goldman:
  • “He is simply abusing the power of his office to get retribution against someone who wrote something unflattering. And it's just more and more of the same politicized, weaponized stuff that Donald Trump, Todd Blanche, Cash Patel are doing...” ([31:04])
  • “When that comes out, it is going to be very bad for him and very bad for the Republicans.” ([35:58])
• Sarah Longwell:
  • “Trump's failure, catastrophic failure as a political figure that should taint everybody who propped him up and that's the best outcome...that they pay for that with a certain amount of shame going forward that forces the society to recalibrate around better things.” ([41:16])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:40] – Trump proclaims the “Golden Age of America”
• [01:05] – Wallace rebuts Trump's claim, gives polling stats about economic hardship
• [04:09] – Guest discussion on cumulative economic pain, gas prices, public anger
• [05:17] – Carusone jokes Trump’s “golden age” is personal gold
• [08:52] – Carusone: Republican “politics are locked in” before midterms
• [10:58] – Heilemann: Trump's base eroding; economic disappointment
• [13:59] – Trump’s awkward chat with kids in the Oval Office (trans athletes, sports)
• [15:12] – Wallace & Powers discuss off-kilter Trump moments as liabilities
• [20:03] – Carusone details open self-enrichment, public perceives “contempt”
• [24:17] – Wallace: “politically criminal” to self-deal, list of Trump-era enrichment
• [27:25] – Powers: GOP acquiescence is immoral, not just political
• [31:04] – Dan Goldman: FBI politicized, law eroded by Trump’s circle
• [34:18] – Goldman: Legal erosion could undermine the whole U.S. system
• [35:58] – House retaking could mean real investigations, “when that comes out...”
• [38:00] – Michael Schnell on Howard Lutnick/Jeffrey Epstein testimony
• [41:16] – Sarah Longwell: legacy of Trump’s “catastrophic failure”

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Conclusion

This episode is a comprehensive, critical portrait of a presidency and party in denial and decline, woven together by rising economic anxiety, open self-enrichment, and authoritarian political tactics. Wallace and her panelists describe not only why Trump’s messaging is failing, but also how the corrosion of democratic norms and basic empathy is causing cracks even in his once-impregnable base. The debate closes with a look forward: the profound need for moral, shame-inducing accountability and more constructive political alternatives.

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For listeners seeking a clear-eyed, unsparing look at the current American political climate—as well as a pointed analysis of what’s at stake—this episode stands out for its candor, data, and unwillingness to pull any punches.

Transcript

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[Donald Trump]

The Golden Age of America begins right now. You've seen nothing yet. We're going to do better and better and better. This is the Golden Age of America. This is indeed the Golden Age of America. This is the Golden Age of America. I think that we can honestly say, and I think you're going to see it even more so over the next 12 months, that this is the Golden Age of America.

[Nicole Wallace]

If only. I think most of us would settle for silver or bronze at this point. Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. Actually, judging by Donald Trump's tone, he's not even that into it anymore. Like, I don't even think he thinks it's golden at Mar a Lago any more than any of us do. Despite Donald Trump's claims though, or the fact that that line is still in his speeches, more and more polls make clear that the vast majority of Americans, including many people who voted for Donald Trump, believe that the only goal they're seeing is all that stuff behind Donald Trump's head when he speaks to the country in the White House as a record number of Americans are now reporting financial hardship due to Donald Trump's economy and blaming him and the Republican Party for all that economic anxiety. New polling by Gallup finds that 55% of all Americans say that recent price increases have caused them financial hardships and it's not getting any better anytime soon. That number includes 15% who say that hardship has been severe. A record number 55% say their financial situation is getting worse daily. Gallup notes that this quote marks the fifth consecutive year more Americans say their finances are worsening rather than improving. The only similar multi year period when the larger share felt their financial situation was worsening was during the Great Recession. Voters are particularly angry about Donald Trump's rising gas prices due to the war with Iran. 81% of Americans say they have felt financial strain due to the increased prices at the pump. And if you thought that there was about to be some good news for Trump and the Republican Party, you'd be wrong. 63% of Americans place a good or great deal of the blame on Donald Trump. That includes a healthy chunk of his own party. 32% of Republicans blame Donald Trump for the rising gas prices. But amid all these flashing yellow and red warning signs that Americans are really suffering and feeling real financial pain because of Donald Trump's decisions and holding Trump and Republicans accountable for it, what does that party do? Well, their plan is to try to get Americans to fork over 1 billion with a B dollars for Donald Trump's big, pretty golden Ballroom. He thinks it's pretty. That's why he keeps carrying it around with him. The Republican Party's outright refusal to tell their emperor that he has no clothes even as he drives their own voters away is where we start the hour. Puck News senior political columnist and national affairs analyst John Heilman is back with us. Also back with us, Media Matters for America President Angelo Carazone is here. And joining us after a long time away, U.S. state of the columnist Kirsten Powers is here. Kirsten, it's so nice to see you again. Tell me, this is your, this is your expertise, like where, where, where is, where is the public on this? And to me, it feels cumulative, but that may be because I can sort of stack the plates on top of each other. Is this really sort of a product of people driving by and seeing those, those gas numbers in front of them in their face every day?

Look, I think that's making it a lot worse. It is cumulative. This has been going on, as you said, for the last five years, and I think Americans have been feeling it, and it's been growing harder. And then you have a situation where Donald Trump chooses to start a war that causes gas prices to go up. And you have 80% of people saying that this is making things difficult for them at home in terms of their budget. I mean, that's, that's kind of a shocking number if you're the Republicans. You have to be very, very scared by that. The fact that people are so unhappy about the economy and gas prices are always bad news if you're in the incumbent party.

You know, Don Heilman, the other piece of it is that there's no acknowledgment of what Kirsten just laid Out. Right. There's no, there's no, like, forget Bill Clinton's I feel your pain, you know, and forget Joe Biden's. Not successful, but many, many attempts to communicate with the country about the economy. The Republican's plan is to sneak in $1 billion for his golden Ballroom. That's it.

[Angelo Carusone]

Well, you said it before, Nicole. I mean, there's a chance, there's a chance that what Trump meant when he said it was going to be the golden age of America, what he meant all along was he was going to have a lot of gold in the White House, that he was actually just, he was never thinking about anything besides, I'm going to have, everything's going to be gold here at the White House. There's a chance. I mean, you know, you know, he's, he's, you know, like, you know, it would play directly into the narcissism and the solipsism and the egomania that is him. He can't really see anything beyond the nose on his face. So maybe that's true. I sort of jest, but yes, I mean, I would say. And people will get mad when I say this because I've said it before, they always get mad. You know, there was a period after which Joe Biden decided, you know, when he started to become convinced of the notion that he had to sound a little bit more Clintonian to use your feel your pain rhetoric. But there is something. There was a period of time in that early part of the Biden administration where there were all kinds of discussions about how Bidenomics was working and about how well our inflation rate isn't as high as the rest of the world. There were a lot of citations of statistics. And Joe Biden is not the first president who's tried to do that. He's. He's not the last. Because we're seeing Donald Trump do it. Even without the fakes, with, even without the statistics. They just keep trying to say that if we keep telling you that everything's better than it was before I came in office, that you'll believe it. And I think the biggest difference between Biden and Trump, right, is that, is that Joe Biden did not run on lowering prices. Joe Biden was coming out of the pandemic. His, he ran on normalcy, ending the reign of Donald Trump and ending the pandemic and getting past the pandemic. And people were the attempt there as a message thing was to try to get people to understand that after a once in a century pandemic, there was gonna be economic pain, that there was gonna be a period of transition and all of that stimulus that went into the economy was gonna have an inflationary effect. Donald Trump made this the center. We've said this a hundred times and we've said it once. It's the craziest thing about it is that is not that he continues to call it the gold page, but that he doesn't seem to remember that this was the centerpiece of his campaign in 2024. And that raises the bar of how much acknowledgement you would need. You wouldn't just need to acknowledge that there was pain at the pump and that there was pain in the grocery stores and that mortgage interest rates were still too high. You would have to say, I know I made you this promise. I know this was the central thing that I ran on. But now let me try to explain to you why I haven't been able to deliver and why it's worth it. If he wanted to make that argument for the war in Iran, that is the thing that nothing, none of those pieces of the argument have been laid out. Not an acknowledgement of the original promise, not the challenges of fulfilling the promise, not why it might be worth it to endure a temporary pain for long term geostrategic or political gain. You know, none of those things have been made. And that is why, you know, I've been sitting on the show for the last few months, at least since the beginning of the year, that the time between now and the midterms is shorter than it looks. And that once you got to Memorial Day, everything's going to be locked in with the possible exception if we have a Martian invasion or something. Basically, the politics are locked in.

[Nicole Wallace]

Don't rule anything.

[Angelo Carusone]

There hasn't been much legislating. Right? Well, yeah. Can you imagine Marco Rubio trying to repel the Martians from the White House lawn? That would be quite a spectacle. Might be the only thing that could repair his reputation after today. The reality is there hasn't been much legislating anyway, Nicole. And there's not going to be any going forward. Everyone's going to be focused on the politics starting at the end of this month. We're there, right? This stuff is now locked in. And the fact that even if you were trying hard, changing the politics around, this would be incredibly hard in the public perception. They are not even trying to, which is why, again, if we put redistricting aside for a minute, why the wind and weather in the politics right now are so viciously against the Republicans who are gonna be running for reelection this November.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Angela, this, though, is where I feel like the historical parallels come up short. They're not trying to fix anything because they are part of a party where you can't acknowledge a problem. And in the same way that we actually have to, with a straight face, cover Donald Trump's war of words with the Pope, we have to cover his indifference to people's economic anxiety and suffering. And it is something that he is a combination of oblivious to and disdainful of. He's oblivious to real economic anxiety and peril and choosing between groceries and prescriptions and choosing between a car, road trip and staying home. He has no ability to understand what that is like for a family. He's also indifferent and a little angry that people are mad about that because he's doing great, important stuff. So it's not just that they don't have the time to fix it. Donald Trump is at a personality level incapable of accepting it's a problem and working on its solution. I guess my question for you is, are all the betrayals now back to sort of my stacked plates? Are there too many, or do they have to just try to divert attention somewhere else?

[John Heilman]

I think you said something earlier about the cumulative effect, and that's right, and there's some evidence for that. So, you know, Trump's numbers amongst the faithful, the diehards have been around, you know, 88% or so for a while. There's now been a net 15% drop point there. So it's still pretty high, but amongst the faithful. But that's a big change. And it's the first time you've really seen any indication that the edges are starting to fray. And that's new, that's a new twist. And if you then layer that in with what we're facing in front of us, and we can't ignore that, because the reality is today's the best day it's going to be for a while. When it comes to gas prices and costs, it's not going to get better in the short term as people get prepared for their Fourth of July, as Trump is taking that brand new plane and people are thinking about their barbecues and all that Fourth of July weekend travel, gas prices are going to be worse, costs are going to be higher, and Trump's going to be doing a gigantic UFC party in Washington, D.C. while riding around a brand new plane, it's going to be a really big disconnect. And so that little bit of sensitivity amongst even his faithful are now going to have to start wondering why is this guy so detached from us? And I think, to me, the real question I have is, when do people start blaming those. Because we already know about Trump. Everybody does. And people, they knew that when they got in that he didn't really care, but they were on the ride because they were in it for the grievance and for the revenge and for the vibes and because they thought maybe he would do something. Things on the economy like Trump 1.0 that made them feel good. Like the rebates that some of them are getting now that are now been totally gobbled up by these increased costs. And I've been watching a lot of local news lately, and people are complaining about that money that they were expecting to have in their pockets as a result of some of these changes in tax cuts and rebates. They're gone. They're already been evaporated. And so they're disappointed. There's a lot of disappointment there. But I wonder why and when people will start blaming the rest of the Republicans because they're still acting as if Trump's numbers have not changed. They're being just as coldly indifferent and terrible as Trump has been. And that their conspiracy. They know they're heading into a buzzsaw, but for some reason, they have not done this. The normal reflex of politics, which is to say, no, I can't do that. I need to change. And they could have prevented this. They could have intervened at any point. But as you noted, they haven't just gone along with it. They're enthusiastically embracing all these nonsensical things like this new ballroom. And obviously, there's some force with Trump's, some of these logistics plans and trying to drive in. And that's the part where I think we haven't seen that, that spillover effect yet. People know about Trump. They're in that. I think those edges are going to continue to fray. What happens when this starts? It continues to unravel. He's not able to make it better. But when does it start to transfer to the rest of the Republicans? Because they are not feeling the heat. I am bullied that we're seeing some local news coverage that has materially changed in the last few days. And I do think that's very notable.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I mean, Kirsten Angela talked about the vibes. Like, these are the vibes in the Oval Office with children. Let me show you what yesterday,

[John Heilman]

next year, I'm going to be trying to do powerlifting.

[Angelo Carusone]

Oh, all right, let's go.

[Donald Trump]

Wow, that's awesome. And you'll Never compete against women in powerlifting. No, sir. Can you see that? They had a man powerlifter and he decided to go the opposite direction. Took a record, stood for 18 years. He beat it by 119 pounds. Okay. They put the little, little quarter of an ounce, quarter of an OUN. For 18 years it stood. This guy came, he was a failed power lifter, but he went on the other side and he decided that he wanted to go into women's sports and he broke the record by £118. Think that's fair. So I don't think we'll have to worry about you. How about you? What sport do you play?

[Nicole Wallace]

I play volleyball and in the summer

[John Heilman]

I'm trying to get into soccer.

[Angelo Carusone]

Wow.

[Nicole Wallace]

Wow.

[Donald Trump]

And with your height, do you smash the ball?

[Nicole Wallace]

The volleyball?

[Donald Trump]

You get up high, could you jump high?

[Nicole Wallace]

Got married.

[Donald Trump]

Soccer might be better. I don't want to be. I'm just looking. I think she'd be a great soccer player. That's good. Good luck.

[Nicole Wallace]

There may be some people who like that, but vibes wise, I mean, the guy is just a walking liability wrapped in absolute off kilter weirdness. I mean, again, this was not leaked audio.

This was like, that's. I wasn't quite sure what to say. And I think off kilter weirdness pretty much nails it. Nicole, I mean, it's just so bizarre, right, that this is the President of the United States and this is what he's choosing to have a conversation about with a child. Yeah. It's just like, how many weird things can President Trump do is really the question because it just seems to be never ending. And there's no bottom.

There's no bottom. And I guess, I mean, Angela, to your point, the power of Trumpism, right, was held up by really by two things. The vibes, which you mentioned, and the truth never seeping out. You know, whether Epstein is the chicken or the egg, I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to figure it out. But through the betrayal of Epstein, they're realizing that the economic promises were a lie. No, Forever wars was a lie. You know, he's stuffing money in his pockets, he's enriching his family, couldn't care less about gas prices, but the vibes are all off. I mean, that was really weird. And again, this is not secret video. This wasn't a gotcha. This was a open press event at the White House. And the President could not look more out of touch and bizarre.

[John Heilman]

Yeah. And I think the so what of all that is that as you noted. He needs to maintain this story and it's like the truth never gets out. And then you also carry water or backfill for his storyline so that you are sort of at least keeping people somewhat on the same page. And a lot of the people that were supporting him are in the larger right wing podcast space, the manosphere. They're not anymore and they are actually letting some of the truth out. So they are complaining about gas prices. His own supporters are talking about it more. They're talking about cost in the economy, which is why then you're starting to see even his die hards, which people, and I've been one of them and I still think there's always going to be people that are never going to move. But the idea that the edges are framed, that parts of his base are saying okay now this is too much for me is a real inflection point that we haven't actually seen yet in all throughout this Trump thing. That's to me the so what of the vibes being off? It makes these weird moments and there's plenty of shortfall from political thing there. But the consequence of that is that there's a bunch of people that are like, I don't want to carry any water for him. I mean, how much street fighting do you see J.D. vance doing right now? That used to be his full time job. The first year of this term he was on Twitter every bamboo. Now he's not doing that anymore. He's not doing, he's not as aggressive. And I think that's a reflection of, like you said, the vibe is being off.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right. Former President Barack Obama has entered the chat. We'll show you what that looks like. No one's going anywhere. Much more with the panel as Americans increasingly reject Donald Trump's claim that the country is in some sort of golden era. Also ahead for us, more on our exclusive new reporting about how Kash Patel's FBI is being used to investigate. Journalists will talk to a member of the House Judiciary Committee about what the FBI is actually doing. And later, what Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick told the House Oversight Committee today about his interactions with Jeffrey Epstein. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Angelo Carusone]

A good policy that I'd like to see followed is that the president of the United States shouldn't have a bunch of side hustles that those companies and foreign entities can invest in.

[John Heilman]

How much of that is just jealous that you didn't think of selling a

[Angelo Carusone]

sneaker because your sneakers were flown?

[John Heilman]

You know that Right.

[Angelo Carusone]

You know, bank coin. I, I just. I mean, I thought this was a pretty obvious principle.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with John Angelo and Kirsten. John Heilman. Obama, in his way, like, hits on something that I think gets at why we. We in the media are kind of late to hammer home how bizarre it is for Trump and his kids to be enriching themselves in gobsmacking gluttony. It was a normal principle to not steal from the taxpayers while you had the privilege of running the country. Trump has it all upside down. He thinks the privilege is ours to have him as president and that the planes from foreign countries, the East Room, which he bulldozed, the, you know, assets of the American people, the people's House, are his.

[Angelo Carusone]

Yeah. And I think, you know, the. The mantra that a lot of Democrats have, have, I think, maybe not quite as forcefully adopted as they. As they could, should, or may and maybe will, is this notion of the costs, chaos and corruption. Right. And. And all of those are vividly on display. It's not just that they're issues, but there are things that people. And this is something you and I have talked about endlessly. Right. Which is there have been big, visible symbols that have cut through into normal downstream media consumption, not beltway media, not cable news, but where everybody knows about them. You just named a couple of them. And the notion of. I mean, I think people did not fully appreciate how many people had questions when they heard that he was taking a plane from a replacement, a much more lavish replacement for Air Force One from a foreign country. I think that actually did cut through to a lot of people. I think, obviously, the White House ballroom, which, when it first started, when that story first broke, we thought, I wonder if this will really break through. But, but all of it, you know, the total destruction of the East Room, the fact that he continues to go on social media and try to justify it in his spare time, when he's not changing course on Iran on a dime for no good reason whatsoever, he's constantly going back. It's like an itch he can't stop scratching. And every time he scratches, it gets worse. Because now the absurdity of it, the ludicrousness of it and the obscenity of it is even greater. Because now the one thing that he said, I'm not going to tear down the East Room, I'm not going to tear down the White House, he tore down the East Room. He lied about that. And then he said, well, the one thing you should take comfort is the fact there's going to be no taxpayer dollars involved. And now we're finding out that's going to cost taxpayers another billion dollars on top of the $250 billion, whatever we spent on this Iran war. All of those issues come together in various ways because the Epstein story is about corruption, the East Wing, and that's cut through as much as anything out there. The East Wing story is about corruption. They're all chaos stories. And then the cost stories kind of get intermingled because so much of the corruption and this is what I think Obama's talking about. It's not just that we're. That the president has shouldn't have side hustles, obviously, the president should not have side hustles. And this is one of the least well covered things of the whole of Trump's two terms in office. But it's that he has these side hustles. He's doing them out in the open at a time. When I go around up here in my upstate purple part of New York, I go around to drugstores and supermarkets and all of a sudden I'm seeing people like using coupons in a way that I haven't seen in a really long time. We're all familiar with seeing senior citizens who are coupon cutters, right? Coupons never went away. But now it's like every time I'm in a line for anything, literally today at the supermarket, everybody in line is digging through their pockets for coupons because they're so stretched financially. And for those people especially, kind of slightly embarrassed, like yuppies in their 30s and 40s who I don't think have ever used a coupon before in their lives. But now they're trying to make ends meet and they're making all these cost trade offs because of how expensive everything is and how bad the economy is and how tenuous their employment is. And they look up and see the self enrichment, the self dealing, the cryptographs, the meme coins, the predictions markets that Don Jr sits on the board of that people are clearly doing insider trading on all of it. And then the Easter egg is the kind of the cherry on the Sunday. I think it's not just that they think he's out of touch. They think he's like spitting in their face. And I think that is a sin. Out of touch is something you can fix. Contempt for voters is unfixable. And that's when you start to be in the terminal slide that you can never get out of. When people start to think you're taking their Trust and kicking them in the private bits, the nuts.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I think, Angela, there were many profound points to Heilman's answer, but one of them is the humiliation of economic desperation. And my earlier point that Trump didn't understand it is one thing, right, to become president. Lots of people are in politics for a long time and you can end up out of touch. But I mean, Hallman named some of them. The crypto scam, the prediction markets, the meme coins, the new airport deal with Palm Beach Airport. He's going to start making like airport products, like, I don't know, neck pillows. I don't know what that means. The ballroom golf courses, I mean, self dealing tournaments to his golf courses. The drone company that his son is on the board of that just got a Pentagon contract. And I made this list literally in the last 90 seconds. The self dealing, the grotesque money grab from the American taxpayer at a time when people who, as Halman's reporting, have never needed coupons at the grocery store, are trying to stretch their very dollar as far as it can possibly go, is politically criminal. I mean, what do you think the voter reaction and response will be if we have a normal and secure election?

[John Heilman]

It's going to be intense.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right?

[John Heilman]

And we know that because, and this is, it's the inverse of what gave Trump a lot of juice and power to begin with, which is that he had a great story in some ways, you know, he represented American dream. You know, the idea that you could get all these, get fabulous wealthy, you could be associated with it. And part of what made him so appealing to something, that that was what the Apprentice is all about, and what made it sort of fun for people to participate in that, is that it was still a possibility in your mind, even if it felt far off, it still felt possible. But when you create a living nightmare for people that they're forced to be positioned in and then you get rid of it being an accessible dream and you're actually, as you noted, ripping them off and grifting off of them. And so you're making their lives worse and simultaneously enriching yourself as a result of it. That storyline breaks. And I think that's when he's confused. His relationship with people's perceptions about their futures is radically different than it was in the past. And so. But, you know, I think that in this moment, when people are gonna vote, yeah, there's been a lot of. There's only so much Trump that people can deal with. I get that in terms of, like what we can manage in this moment. But this, the rejection will be intense because it's gonna be a big crash off of a big high, and they're gonna reject that exact dynamic. And this is the one way that they can do it authoritatively, by voting to some extent against him, you know, against Republicans.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Kirsten, this is where the Republican bet feels like it breaks bad. Right. So they have not. I mean, I used to have, you know, pages full of signal messages from Republicans in Trump 1.0. You know, keep it up. Wish I could say what you can, which is ludicrous. Like, of course they could have about Access Hollywood or about good people on both sides. The thing that they have done, which is to keep quiet and go along when it comes to his economic indifference, is the thing that's going to get them kicked out of Congress.

Yeah, but we know that they don't want to stand up to him. They're afraid of standing up to him. And they forgot this, you know, ever since he's come into office the first time, they just always go along with him. And so I think, you know, they could have the attitude that, well, we're going to lose the House anyway because it's the first midterm, you know, for the president, and usually the incumbent loses. But, you know, that that's not an excuse because actually what we're talking about, what he's doing, it's immoral behavior. Right. When, you know, it's. It's maybe technically legal. I mean, we'll, you know, we'll find out. But the fact is it's completely immoral behavior to be doing these kinds of things, enriching yourself, spending taxpayer money on things that are not needed while people are suffering, you know, extremely in this country. And, you know, and then I think we also have. Have a question around, you know, why we could assume that people are going to reject Republicans because of this, but are they really endorsing Democrats? Like, that's another conversation, because the Democrats are up in the generic ballot, but they're not up as much as they should be, considering what's going on. Right. And so there has to be, and this is something Obama talked a little bit about, about how Democrats need to interact with voters. There has to be something for people to vote for also, you know, not just against.

Yeah. And the folks that are standing out that are, I think, raising the most money and getting the most attention are the ones telling a very specific story. James Talarico, current mayor of New York City, and candidates like that, John Hyman, Angelo Carousel and Kirsten Powers, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. When we come back, a member of the House Judiciary Committee will be here on MSNOW's exclusive new reporting about the highly unusual move by FBI Director Cash Patel to open a criminal leak investigation into a journalist. We want to get back to that exclusive new reporting we brought you at the top of our program today. It comes from our colleagues Carol Lennig and Kendallanian about how the FBI under Kash Patel's leadership has opened a highly unusual criminal leak investigation into a journalist from the Atlantic, Sarah Fitzpatrick, who wrote a story about Kash Patel that he did not like. That Atlantic story was headlined, the FBI Director is mia. And Fitzpatrick spoke to more than two dozen sources to report on Patel's unexplained absences and excessive drinking. According to our reporting, the investigation is, quote, highly unusual because it did not stem from a disclosure of classified information and because it is focused on leaks to a reporter. Joining me at the table, Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman of New York. He is the former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. He's a current member of the House Judiciary and Homeland Security Committees, Carrington. We covered the breaking news in the first hour, but Sarah's out with some new reporting that seems consistent with someone for whom drinking is pretty central to their identity, their Kash Patel branded bottles of bourbon or whiskey. Is that the same thing, Whiskey, whatever. That he gives out to people as gifts. And their answer is, everyone does it. I cannot imagine Bob Mueller handing out bourbon.

[Dan Goldman]

Whose answer is everyone does it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Kash Patel's answer to the new reporting on his sort of signature gift is everybody has gifts like this.

[Dan Goldman]

Everybody has a bottle of bourbon that has initial lines on it.

[Nicole Wallace]

But it was something like no big whoop.

[Dan Goldman]

Look, I think what is shocking but not surprising is he's doing this again. When there was a story about how he was using the SWAT team to protect his girlfriend, he initiated an investigation into the reporter. Now this very unflattering story comes out, but clearly deeply, deeply sourced. And he is using the sort of typical Trumpian, I'm gonna go on the attack. I'm gonna misuse and abuse my power. And what's crazy about this is, what's the leak? What is the leak? That some FBI official told a reporter that he was so Dr. Drunk that he couldn't wake up and that his detail had to wake him up. I mean, that's not. That's not a leak of any criminal significance. There's no basis for this investigation. And he is simply abusing the power of his office to get retribution against someone who wrote something unflattering. And it's just more and more of the same politicized, weaponized stuff that Donald Trump, Todd Blanche, Cash Patel are doing that is devastating and destroying the Department of Justice.

[Nicole Wallace]

How do you, you know, you're in the midst of a campaign right now. How do you talk to your constituents about why their destruction of the rule of law matters?

[Dan Goldman]

Well, it's a good question and I talk to them a lot about this. And let's take the FBI as an example. So Cash Patel has completely abused the law, his power and is misusing the law. So it is clear that he and Donald Trump and Todd Blanche are charging people purely based on their political affiliation or whether they did something that the President didn't like. So that undermines the credibility of that investigation. But then you're going to have every other defendant or every other target of an investigation say, well, am I being investigated or charged for something I did or is it for because they don't like me? And this can trickle down. You could have an SEC investigation into a investment firm that Donald Trump doesn't like cuz the head of it is a donor to the Democrats. So once you get to the point where our government is not abiding by the law, then what's to say a corporate contract can't be nullified by one party. That's just like, I don't, the President's not following the law, why do I need to follow this? This is a bad contract, I'm just voiding it. And then you get the full destruction of economy and everything breaks down. The reason why we have the best economy in the world is because we have reliable laws, reliable courts, settled expectations and the rule of law, not the rule of one man, prevails. And if that goes away because of the corruption in the Department of Justice, it not only undermines the Department of Justice, it undermines the entire democratic fabric of our society.

[Nicole Wallace]

You sat right there and I said why doesn't that get corporate America off the sidelines? And we couldn't come up with a good answer. Do you have one now?

[Dan Goldman]

I think that there. No, I don't have a good one. I wish there was more forethought. I think we saw it in the first term and we're not seeing it now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you think he succeeded in making them afraid with all the executive orders against law?

[Dan Goldman]

He has intimidated them and it's double edged sword because he threatens them with retribution and penalties if they defy him. But if they just pad his wallet, then he's right.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, why, why are they illegal? But why are they not afraid of being investigated for bribes?

[Dan Goldman]

Well, look, you're not, there's, there's not going to be a conversation where Donald Trump says, well, except the oil executives for the campaign when the law firm's

[Nicole Wallace]

doing free work for the Commerce Department. How's that not a bribe?

[Dan Goldman]

Well, you can, you know, it gets complicated because it has to be a clear quid pro quo for his personal interest for theirs. You know, we know the back where we started. Yeah, exactly. We're back to 2019 impeachment. But you would have to investigate it. It could be illegal, but there are ways of, you know, you support his inauguration and he leaves your company alone in the ballroom. Exactly.

[Nicole Wallace]

Are you optimistic as you're sort of out there talking to voters about all the damage he's doing in real time, much more quickly than the first term?

[Dan Goldman]

Am I optimistic about what happened?

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm optimistic about the Democratic Party's ability to sort of hold him accountable. I mean, he's got two and a half more years in office. It's a lot of time to do a lot of damage.

[Dan Goldman]

Well, what I'm optimistic about is we take back the majority and people like Jamie Raskin and I will be leading investigations into Trump's corruption, into all of the Cabinet officials and this gross abuse of power. And we will get to the bottom of a lot of it and we will reveal it and it will become transparent. And I think part of what people seem to think, they give him a pass is because he does it all out in the open. Well, there's a lot he does not do in the open. And when that comes out, it is going to be very bad for him and very bad for the Republicans.

[Nicole Wallace]

And you've done it before.

[Dan Goldman]

I've done it before.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you for spending some time. Thanks for stopping by.

[Dan Goldman]

Thanks.

[Nicole Wallace]

Great to see you. Congressman Dan Goldman after the break. Howard Lutnick's connection to an interaction with Jeffrey Epstein is under the congressional microscope today. We'll tell you how that went next. Quote, that was really embarrassing and quote, part of the ongoing cover up. Those are the reviews from House Oversight Democrats who heard testimony from Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick today about his interactions with Jeffrey Epstein. Howard Lutnick sat today for a transcribed interview with the committee. And our Capitol Hill reporter Michael Schnell is reporting that he told members he had just three meetings with Jeffrey Epstein and that he never saw him with young women. Lutnick apparently did not remember anything about his visit to Jeffrey Epstein's island in 2012, the one that yielded this photo. And he has denied any wrongdoing. Michael joins us now. Michael, did he have any explanation for why when he was testifying, he added that detail about going into the island with all of his kids and all of his nannies and, quote, leaving the island with all of his kids and all of his nannies?

[VRBO Advertiser]

To our understanding, Nicole, it's unclear if he addressed that part specifically. Of course, what we learned from today's transcribed interview was just what we heard from lawmakers and sources in the room, certainly something we'll look towards when the transcript of this comes out and we can look through the full scope of the conversation. But on that point, I mean, one of the matters that both Democrats and Republicans were most interested in during today's transcribed interview was the fact that back in 2005, Howard Lutnick had said that he didn't want to have a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein anymore. He told the story about going to his apartment and seeing the massage bed and then Jeffrey Epstein making an untoward comment, and he decided at that moment he didn't want to have a professional or a personal relationship? Well, during today's transcribed interview, I'm told by a source in the room that Howard Lutnick confirmed that he met with Jeffrey Epstein three times, two times after that moment in 2005 at his apartment. And one of the questions was, well, you said you weren't going to have a relationship anymore, so why did you meet with him? And what we are told from Ro Khanna, a member of the committee, was that Howard Ludnick made, quote, a force of the English language. Essentially, what Lutnick was trying to do here was saying that when he said he wouldn't carry on a personal, professional relationship, he meant one on one. Right. If they were in a room together, just the two of them, essentially trying to make the argument that being on the island with his family, with the nannies, with his children, that was okay because it wasn't a one on one personal meeting. Now, Democrats lambasted that idea, saying that it didn't make any sense, saying that he was trying to twist words to make this, to sort of rationalize these visits. So certainly an interesting comment from Howard Lutnick, some others as well. But the news out of it today, him saying he didn't witness anything inappropriate with young women, but very notably noting that he did meet with Lutnick three times. And I'll note on one of those times was, as you mentioned, that lunch on the island with the families, that photograph that you just showed Lutnick tested. Lutnick testified that he found the invitation to go to that lunch unsettling. He said he had no idea how Jeffrey Epstein's assistant knew that he was on the Virgin Islands and potentially available for lunch. And so despite that, he still attended with his family. So certainly some interesting details from today's transcribed interview.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm amazed at what island garb looks like. They all look like they're dressed the same. Michael. It's an incredible piece of reporting about a really opaque swath of society. Thank you for doing that for us. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. As we did today, we often lead this program with the latest polling, but sometimes the poll misses the heart of the problem. It fails to account for what people mean when they say the economy is important to them or what they want from their politicians. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People actually listens to voters and understands what they mean when they say they don't like how things are going, understands how they feel. Sarah Longwell is the publisher of the Bulwarks. She's the host of the focus group podcast. She's brilliant and she's offered me some much needed hope about what comes next. Watch

[Sarah Longwell]

Trump's failure, catastrophic failure as a political figure that should taint everybody who propped him up and that's the best outcome that we can look and say, no, you failed America when we needed you and that they pay for that with a certain amount of shame going forward that forces the society to recalibrate around better things. And I think what's why having good politicians come up, you know, the Democratic Party just is the organizing vehicle for the Pro Democracy coalition, which means it's going to be big and multifaceted and weird and have a lot of strange bedfellows. I'm looking forward to the Democratic primary because my hope is that somebody fierce and kind is able to like, feed the good parts in people and bring us up from there.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm down for that. Fierce and kind. We get into it about who that might be and a whole lot more. So you don't want to miss this episode. It's out now on YouTube. You just scan the QR code on your screen or download this episode wherever you get your podcasts. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight.

[Angelo Carusone]

We are grateful to why have I asked my electrician? I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster. I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet nibbles after his untimely end. This is very strange, Angie. Go on you trust. Define the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects at Angie Combination.