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Deadline: White House
“It was never about justice”
00:43:01
Nicolle Wallace on the latest complication for House Republicans in the Epstein case and Gavin Newsom's call to action for the Democratic Party.
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- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
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- [00:33]
MSNBC Announcer
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- [01:06]
Nicole Wallace
You almost have to feel sorry for him. He tried, did his best to cancel me. Instead he forced millions of people to watch the show that backfired bigly. He might have to release the Epstein files to distract us from this now.
- [01:25]
Hi again Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. He can run, but he cannot help. The Jeffrey Epstein scandal that has plagued the Trump administration all summer long is about to reach a new and unavoidable level as a Democratic win in a special election in Arizona last night all but confirms House Republicans will be forced to go on the record about whether or not to release the Epstein files. The Democrat who won, Adelita Grijalva, said she will sign on to the bipartisan discharge petition. She will become the 218th congressperson to do so, which will force a floor vote on releasing the Epstein files. The Kentucky Lantern reports on Republican Congressman Thomas Massie, one of the sponsors of the petition, on his fellow House Republicans. Quote, Massie told reporters that D.C. leaders are, quote, in full panic following the election. He also added that they politically threatened Republican co signers of the petition. If Republican U.S. house Speaker Mike Johnson tries to use some special parliamentary procedure to stall the petition, Massie said it also would require 218 votes. And if you participate in that vote to sideline the discharge petition now you are part of the COVID up. So they're going to have a vote. I think they're coming to terms with that, massie said. Another sign that this issue isn't going anywhere. There is now a physical reminder that has popped up on the National Mall in the form of a 12 foot tall spray Painted bronze statue of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein holding hands with a plaque that reads, quote, we celebrate the long lasting bond between President Donald J. Trump and his closest friend Jeffrey Epstein, end quote. The statue has been taken down by the National Park Service after they said it did not comply with a permit. From the Washington Post reporting on that quote, Dan Mariano, 32, was taking his nine month old Yorkshire Terrier Bo for a walk on the Mall when he came across the statue. It's a very powerful message to show that rapidly disappearing freedom of speech still exists, not just in the U.S. but here in the Capitol, he said. The statue, he said, is a reminder of what is going to be part of the President's legacy, his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. I'm sorry for the tickle in my throat. It's where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. Tara Palmieri is here. She writes the red letter on Substack and has hosted two acclaimed podcast series on this topic, broken Jeffrey Epstein and power the Maxwells. Also joining us, former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst co host of the YouTube show Courtside, Christy Greenberg. If you weren't all so accomplished, I would have gotten through this without coughing. Also joining us, my colleague, senior contributing editor at msnbc, Michelle Norris. Tara, take it away and tell me where you see things in the House.
- [04:25]
Tara Palmieri
I am, I am so in shock and I have been for a long time over how Speaker Johnson has not been able to control his caucus. Obviously the Republicans, they're dug in. I mean, Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Tom Massie, they're not moving regardless of the threats from President Trump. And so you are going to have a bunch of House members voting against releasing the Epstein files. And they're gonna say, oh, we have to do it to protect the girls. You have the girls, the women now on the steps of the Capitol saying, release the files. We are adults. We want this out there. We need to understand our story, you know, the broken pieces of our lives. And only you can do that. So stop pretending, stop patronizing us and making us feel like you're protecting us. That's not what we want. And it's just a really hard vote to take. And I bet when they go back to those town halls, people are gonn really angry.
- [05:25]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and the reason the four are standing strong, which we never say about Republicans in the time of Trump, is that they have 81% of the public behind them. 81% of Americans think Donald Trump is covering something up.
- [05:37]
Tara Palmieri
Absolutely. And I Just don't understand how they, they go back to their districts after this and explain it. And I just think that Speaker Johnson saying, oh, this closed door House oversight hearing, you're going to get more information from that, these meetings, you're not getting anything. All you're getting is dribblings out that Alex Acosta a never read the victim's statements before crafting a non prosecution agreement, a sweetheart deal. He never even.
- [06:09]
Nicole Wallace
Is that, is that, is that credible to anybody?
- [06:12]
Tara Palmieri
That is insanity. There is one. The lead prosecutor, Marie Vilafagnia, worked over a year on this. She put together a 60 count match memo, 80 pages of prosecution memo. And she talked to so many girls as young as 14, she recommended transporting and trafficking girls as young as 14 to him. And he didn't even look at the memos, he didn't even look at the testimonies. And then neither did Kash Patel. It's just, it's a slap in the face to those 81% of people who think that something stinks.
- [06:45]
Nicole Wallace
Well, what it reveals is that when Kash Patel went on Joe Rogan, when Don. What's his name, Dan Bongino. Dan Bongino was talking about this issue. It was never about the girls.
- [06:55]
Tara Palmieri
Oh no, it was never about the girls. It was about getting the cabal of Democratic elites in their minds. It was never about justice. It just never was.
- [07:03]
Nicole Wallace
Let me ask you about that. Is that normal to do a sweetheart deal with someone like Jeffrey Epstein and not read the evidence?
- [07:11]
Christy Greenberg
So you maybe aren't going to read the whole case file. You would certainly read the prosecution memo and you would certainly read the draft indictment. And it is unheard of for, for a U.S. attorney to go in and then take over the plea negotiations from the line prosecutor. I've never heard of that, even in high profile cases. But if you're going to take that step, you've at least then got to become familiar with all the evidence. He wasn't. And so you can't have it both ways. You can't say, I'm taking responsibility for this, but I'm actually not going to get familiar with any of the evidence. He also claims there were evidentiary issues. But how would you know if you didn't read anything? I mean, they're just talking in circles. And ultimately I think the American people know when they're being sold a bag of goods. And that's what's happening here. You have Johnson saying, oh, the oversight committee's taking care of it, we're good. You don't need to worry about this discharge petition and getting the release of the files because we're handling it. But all of the people have talked so far. We have more questions than answers. They're not getting to the bottom of anything. And then you have the release of documents that are already public or heavily redacted. And the Department of Justice is actually opposing in court just a few weeks ago in the SDNY opposing naming individuals, not victims. We're not protecting victims. Potential co conspirators who were cited by the prosecutors as people that Epstein was sending money to. And why are you protecting those people? These are people that you said we need to lock Epstein up because he's tampering with witnesses and you're hiding that information. So again, I think that you can't continue to tell us that you are being transparent when you continue to hide the truth. Americans know what's up. They know this is wrong. And ultimately it's just gaslighting 101.
- [09:00]
Nicole Wallace
Michel, let me show you one more piece of how this has seeped into culture. This is Shane Gillis from the ESPYs.
- [09:11]
MSNBC Announcer
Actually there was supposed to be an Epstein joke here, but as it got.
- [09:15]
Nicole Wallace
Deleted.
- [09:18]
MSNBC Announcer
Must have probably deleted itself, right? Probably never existed.
- [09:23]
Nicole Wallace
Actually.
- [09:24]
MSNBC Announcer
Let's move on as a country and ignore that.
- [09:27]
Nicole Wallace
This has only dominated, I think mainstream news. And this is not something I think any of us should be proud of. But really, since Elon Musk had his breakup with Donald Trump and tweeted Trump is in the Epstein files, I think journalists started asking new questions or asking questions again about the disposition of the case. This has been in culture for a really long time and this has especially been there. That was Shane Gillis. I believe he's part of sort of Joe Rogan's community of comedians who have sort of live and work around Austin, Texas and they've been talking about and to people like Kash Patel and Don Dan, what's his name, Dan Bongino. Dan Bongino about the Epstein files. For years while Republicans were out of power, this was one of the things that ex Republicans talked about. And the fact that they lied to their own circle of media influencers is a story that really isn't going to go away because of anything we say or do. This is a three ring political problem for Donald Trump and that the victims are out there. They have gathered strength from one another and they're not going anywhere. The media is now on this story pursuing facts and evidence and information in a way it hasn't since the original investigations into Maxwell and Epstein and their own media ecosystem is held up by listeners and viewers who care deeply about this issue and believe the other two circles, not them.
- [10:58]
Michelle Norris
NICOLE the shelf life of this story is unusual in this news cycle because one of the things that Donald Trump is very good at doing is using scandal to draw attention away from questionable behavior. And he has tried to do that in this case, and it just doesn't work. This, as you note, is a story that just has staying power for lots of reasons. Chief among them is the public. The public knows that something is being kept from them. NARRATIVE the narrative in the story is so important that these are women who are now standing and telling their stories, but what they really do is represent girls. When I watched that amazing press conference on Capitol Hill, I kept thinking when I saw each of those women of a junior high school yearbook photo, you know, what would that look like? And I think that people understand that this is a story that involves not one little girl, not two little girl, not 12 little girls, but large numbers. And on the other hand, you also have Representative Tom Massie. And we should say a word about Congressman Massie who's, you know, who along with Ro Khanna, has really been pushing this. And that is an unusual element in this also is that he's a Republican who is not marching in lockstep, as so many Republicans are, with Donald Trump's agenda. And he's reaching across the aisle and working with the Democrats Democratic counterpart to make sure that there is some transparency and ultimately perhaps some accountability in this. But Donald Trump is running, I guess, up against the limits of his power and trying to sweep something under the rug and trying to put another shiny, bright object on the table, hoping that it will shift everyone's attention. He's tried time and time again and it's not going to work.
- [12:35]
Nicole Wallace
Michel Let me show you what Thomas Massie has in his back pocket should he ever wish to press play. Here's Cash Patel on what he thinks House Republicans should be doing. Simple.
- [12:48]
Because of who's on that list. What the hell are the House Republicans doing? They have the majority. You can't get the list. You're going to accept Dick Durbin's word or whoever that guy is, as to who is on that list and who isn't and that it can and can't be released. Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are.
- [13:08]
Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are, said Kash Patel on the occasion that Republicans were In the majority. It is such an occasion right now that Republicans are in the majority. And as you said, at least one, at least Thomas Massie wants to know who the pedophiles are.
- [13:25]
Michelle Norris
Well, it's amazing that Kash Patel doesn't remember that he said that. That that's just waiting there for someone to grab and put in front of people. He can't say, I don't know what his belief system is, so I'm not going to try to get inside his head. But he said that with full gusto, assuming that he believed what he was saying back then when he said it, he could not say that now because the team he's decided to sign up with. And so there is this tough position for a lot of Republicans because what you're hearing through reporting now is that some of them are really uncomfortable with this. And Thomas Massie has said that he thinks that Johnson might give a few of them what he's calling a hall pass to let them vote if this does go to a vote and increasingly looks like it is going to go to a vote to let them have a bit of a hall pass so that they can actually vote perhaps with their conscience or vote in a way that will allow them to hold onto their seats if they're in tough districts or they find themselves in a competitive position. But this one is the Epstein case is not something that can be swept away easily and it has a shelf life that is longer than most news stories in a cycle where we are often unable to follow the bouncing ball because it's moving so much. Kudos to you also, Nicole, in a two hour program for continuing to stay with us because we should say that not everybody is.
- [14:55]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I think that the staying power is rooted in the fact that it's a nanosecond in terms of the trauma cycle. So these victims were victimized decades ago, some of them. And there were victims after the sweetheart deal was done. I mean, they've waited years and years and years for justice. And this was Danny Benske on this program this week about the sort of two faces of the Republicans that Michelle's getting at. I mean, they know it's the right thing to do to vote to release the files just based on that reporting that Mike Johnson might let a few of them, quote, do the right thing, might give them a hall pass to do the right thing. Here's Danny describing what Comer was like in private.
- [15:42]
Minnie Timaraju
Comer came in and said to all of us, you know, we're all on the same side of transparency Here we are all fighting for the same thing.
- [15:49]
Nicole Wallace
We believe you.
- [15:51]
Minnie Timaraju
We had quite a few Republicans come and shake our hand at the end, and it really. I left that room feeling so hopeful, and then to still not have the vote from that side of the room is really disheartening on a lot of levels. And I don't. I just don't understand why.
- [16:10]
Nicole Wallace
I think we understand why. Right. I mean, the politics on the right are all about protecting Donald Trump.
- [16:15]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah. And they. And they try to spin and obfuscate and tell these victims, no, no, no, we're looking out for you. We just want to do it in a safe, methodical way in which the Department of Justice and we get to redline everything or, you know, redact everything. So you really don't know anything. Because if you want to right now, you can all go to the FBI's vault, you can look at the Epstein files, whatever is public. And there are just pages that are blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, full of redactions. It's just. It's incredible. And just the fact that, I mean, I just feel like these victims have settled for breadcrumbs for so long. Why are there accounts of being trafficked to other men not credible? What have you done to verify that those accounts are incredible? Kash Patel, if you haven't even read those accounts yourself, why don't you have the victims testifying in these hearings? Why don't you want to hear from them yourselves? I mean, there is a literal effort to plug their ears and avert their eyes by the Republican Party. And it's painful for these girls. I mean, I've seen. I speak to them frequently. I'm on text chains with a lot of the survivors. I keep calling them girls, but they're women. They're my age. They're your age, and they tell me they're fed up. And they're talking about doing opposition research on these members and shaming them and showing their ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Because everybody has a tie to Jeffrey Epstein, I can tell you that. And I've got some reporting coming out to show that. What a deciding vote. The kind of ties at point this, you know, Senator, had to Jeffrey Epstein on deciding not to release these files. And you know who's looking into all of that? It's the survivors. They're sitting around and they are angry and they are lobbying and they are calling and they are trying to figure out how to make the door to justice open, even if they have to break it down.
- [18:05]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and I guess the distinction is keshe Patel was deeply interested in breaking the door down when he made those comments. The year was 2023. Why is he not now?
- [18:17]
Christy Greenberg
That's the question. I mean, but it's so clear why.
- [18:20]
Nicole Wallace
Right?
- [18:20]
Christy Greenberg
They said before anybody saw the file that they wanted the transparency. Then they got in there, reviewed the file. Clearly they were worried about what it would say about Trump because they had everybody reviewing for his name. Then whatever they saw, they reported back to Trump. And all of a sudden it's a 180 that they're not releasing the file without an explanation. We got a two page unsigned memo which, which again, raised more questions than answers. So why, when this is one of the rare bipartisan issues where people want accountability for the most infamous pedophile in history. Not just him, he's dead, but the people who helped him, the people who were involved with him. People want accountability for that. And usually you don't see a criminal case file. In a normal case, that is not the issue. But where you have so many red flags of corruption, things that don't add up, where you have the U.S. attorney getting in there and having a plea deal for any potential co conspirator, which is unheard of, to confer that kind of a broad immunity to unidentified people, you can't then say, we get the protection of that agreement, but we also get the secrecy. So you never learn who we are. No, no, no. Sunlight is the disinfectant here. We need to know who got that deal and why.
- [19:35]
Nicole Wallace
We have to take in a break, but it also seems like new questions could be asked about why this was kept from main DOJ the last time Trump was there. I mean, this has always been an investigation where extraordinary efforts were made to keep things from the White House out of whatever fear or separation or propriety. It's hard to imagine propriety now, but maybe there was then. Much more on this story with this panel as the calls for transparency in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation grow louder. Also ahead for us, what California Governor Gavin Newsom said about taking on Donald Trump right now, what it will take for Democrats to win in 2028. Governor Newsom talked to Stephen Colbert last night. We'll show you some of what he had to say later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [20:24]
MSNBC Announcer
As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [20:41]
Nicole Wallace
The American people are basically telling the.
- [20:43]
Minnie Timaraju
President that they are not okay with any of this.
- [20:46]
MSNBC Announcer
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter@msnbc.com Project 47 subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC NBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter Each morning. Read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite the.
- [21:34]
Nicole Wallace
Second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
- [21:39]
MSNBC Announcer
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- [21:55]
Nicole Wallace
Pressure to release the Epstein files is not just coming from those on Capitol Hill pushing this discharge petition. The American public overwhelmingly wants and is demanding transparency. Even big names in the manosphere have been very clear on this issue and how this was an explicit promise Trump made to them that he needs to fulfill.
- [22:18]
Apparently, we ruined America. We were trying to hold the person in power, President Trump, accountable for not fulfilling some of his promises. So that's, you know, that was a big fan up of ours.
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That was a big up, man.
- [22:31]
We just kind of wanted to know about Epstein, you know, victimizing a thousand girls and who else he did it with. We just kind of wanted to know and Trump was like, you're not going to know. We were like, I don't like that. Yeah, but that's being our fault. Yeah, that's being a bad American, but we were being bad. This one's a line of the sand because this is one where there's a lot of stuff about, you know, when we thought Trump was going to come in and a lot of things are going to be resolved, going to drain the swamp, we're going to figure everything out. And when you have this one hardcore line in the sand that everybody had been talking about forever and then they're trying to gaslight you on that.
- [23:06]
Michelle Joe Rogan seems really smart and I find it endlessly fascinating that he thought Trump was going to drain the swamp. But we'll leave that for another day. This was such an explicit and understandable campaign promise that Trump really didn't just reverse on, but he then, as they both suggested there, went on the attack. He attacked the male hosts in the podcast space who had the audacity to say, hey, wtf?
- [23:36]
Michelle Norris
Well, that's what he does. If he doesn't like something someone says, he goes on the attack. It's important to remember that one of the reasons that so many people, and not just Brotopia, but a lot of people who are on the right, who are part of terrestrial radio, who are part of Christian radio broadcast, they're talking about this a lot too. It doesn't sort of make for interesting video, but that is, you know, happening on a regular basis as well. And they're doing that because he made a promise. He told them that he was going to release this and then he reversed course. He made lots of promises and he's kept good on many of them. I mean, people who are surprised that Donald Trump has done some of the things that he's done really weren't listening because many of the things he said he was going to do, he's actually made good on. In this case, he hasn't. And also what confuses this is the way that his, that he shifted the explanations for their relationship. You know, at one point he said, I wasn't a fan. Where things have surfaced where Jeffrey Epstein thought that this was one of his closest friends. There's all kinds of video that shows, you know, you show the statue that was quickly taken down in Washington, D.C. you can remove the statue, but what you cannot remove are the endless videos and photographs of Donald Trump together with Jeffrey Epstein. You can't really remove easily the flight logs that show that he was repeatedly a guest on his private plane. And so it just doesn't add up for people. People are, voters are smart. You know, Americans are smart. They, they, they see the way that this adds up. And you know, as the kids would say, the math isn't mathing, it just doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense to them why this hasn't been released. We're focusing on Donald Trump. One other thing that we should probably mention is that the blast radius on this story is potentially quite large. And so it's not just that people might be protecting Donald Trump. There were a lot of little girls allegedly involved in this. And there are a lot of grown up men allegedly involved in this. And there may be other people whose names are on that list that are trying very hard to protect their interest as well.
- [25:41]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I think that's absolutely right. Donald Trump, though, has proven that he doesn't care about anyone but himself. And so there's nothing about the response that syncs up with a single visible pattern that he's ever deployed in the past. I mean, there is a pattern of Donald Trump, if it's the not so perfect call, release the tape, Release the tape. I mean, he has released things that are classified. He has released things that make other people look bad. He has no sort of boundaries around sources and methods. I think folks in the Intelligence Committee would tell you he's released these. And he is Clearly, I mean, 81% of Americans, Americans think that Donald Trump is hiding something. And after that number, it goes down to, I think Todd Blanche was at about 54% last time I looked. But everyone around him has now got this sort of stink of a cover up on them because of this refusal to release the materials. What is it that is worse than that that could be in the files.
- [26:42]
Tara Palmieri
About Donald Trump, you know? Well, we know that there was one Jane Doe that made an allegation of rape before the election, said that she was raped by President Trump when she was 14 in Jeffrey Epstein's townhouse. She withdrew that lawsuit right before the election in 2016, citing intimidation. So that's something that's out there. We saw the birthday card that President Trump claims that he did not sign. You know, there's more. I mean, there's likely more. And here's the thing, you know, they can say, oh, it's a group of Democrats and it's true. A lot of people will look bad if the spoil files are released. Right? A lot of people on the left will look bad. And I think a lot of people forget that President Trump was a Democrat back then. He was signing checks for Hillary Clinton, he was signing checks for Bill Clinton. He was signing checks for Chuck Schumer. This was a different crowd that he used to run around in between Palm beach and New York. And they were friends. There is a sensitivity about how close their friendship might be. The Epstein estate, which is clearly either, is handing over documents, but there are leaks going on with emails. We just saw that, Sarah Ferguson's emails where she was saying, I'm so sorry that I publicly denounced you for being a pedophile. You're a Supreme Court friend. Somebody has access to his emails. Things are going to leak and they are going to be embarrassing for people in power and it's going to be a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. So, you know, we don't know everything. I've always believed with this story, and I've been investigating it for a long time, that this is only the tip of the iceberg. And the allegations, they're going to affect a lot of people, and there's going to be a lot of questions about why has the DOJ protected this man for so long. The first case, The Costa case, 2008, sweetheart deal that went all the way to the attorney general under George Bush, went all the way to the White House. I mean, that is saying something. And for so many decades, this story has remained quiet. I mean, people have a right to want to know why.
- [29:01]
Nicole Wallace
What do you think?
- [29:04]
Christy Greenberg
I think again, in a normal case, these are files you wouldn't see. But in a normal case, there aren't these kinds of questions about accountability and why people did certain things that are really inexplicable. I go back to my former boss, Jeff Berman, who wrote about Epstein in his book, and he talked in particular about Acosta, Alex Acosta, the US Attorney in Florida who gave that sweetheart dealing with. And the words that he used, it was, yeah, inexplicable, infuriating, outrageous, incensed. Like, these are not words that I ever heard him use. He's a pretty even keel guy for him to speak like that. At one point in the book, he said, we actually were going to look at that plea deal for potential criminality. We could not rule out that there was corruption there. And the only reason we didn't is because the statute of limitations on corruption had expired by the time we got got to this. So, I mean, that is a huge statement to make, that one U.S. attorney doesn't investigate the other, at least typically you don't.
- [30:07]
Nicole Wallace
Well, he was then in the Cabinet. Even closer to him.
- [30:09]
Christy Greenberg
Exactly. And that's why they had to keep such a close hold on it. Or at least that's one of the reasons they claim they were concerned, is because if Trump got wind of this, if Bill Barr got wind of this, if Alex Acosta got wind of this, does the investigation get shut down? So they kept everything on a very close hold, but the fact that they're even talking about criminality in connection with what Acosta did, that is the reason why you need to release more information from the files, because that is so out of the ordinary, that is so extraordinary that you have to provide answers to these questions.
- [30:43]
Nicole Wallace
Tara Palmieri, Kristi Greenberg, Michelle Norris, thank you so much for starting us off and for enduring my weak voice. Thank you, guys. When we come back, California Governor Gavin Newsom's advice to Democrats looking to counter Donald Trump but he told Stephen Colbert late last night and why he thinks it's breaking through. That's after a Short break.
- [31:04]
MSNBC Announcer
Saturday, October 11th. From New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Tale Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhl and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.
- [31:35]
Nicole Wallace
A not so insignificant number of Americans right now, right now are starved for a certain kind of voice on the national stage, one with a genuine understanding of and authentic solutions to all that plagues the United States. They want a fighter. Well, it appears that California Governor Gavin Newsom wants to be that guy, wants to be that fighter. In the midst of a surge in recent appearances, he was on with Stephen Colbert last night. And in the course of their discussion about political vulnerabilities and what Newsom calls weakness masquerading as strength, he addressed why his trolling of Donald Trump appears to be working. Watch.
- [32:15]
Stephen Colbert
I'm just curious. I mean, we enjoy this. Why do you think it so deeply resonates with people? Why do you think this has made such a difference? I mean, you're glad it is, but what do you think people are responding to? Just the fight. I think, you know, this, it's been a, this is a tough time. I'm aware. No, but this, a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress, a lot of folks that honestly just don't know we're gonna get our country back. And I get it, people, this guy is flooding the zone. He's dominating the narratives. Facts don't seem to matter. And Democrats, frankly, have had a difficult time pushing back. And Democrats feel that times there's sort of this weakness that dominates our brand and our party. And I think what people appreciate is that we're willing to fight and not only fight symbolically by having a little bit fun, but fight substantively. We have 41 lawsuits against this son of a bitch. We're pushing back and we're winning, you know, and, you know, and we're filling a void on a lot of issues.
- [33:15]
Nicole Wallace
Let's bring in our conversation. Princeton University professor MSNBC political analyst Eddie Glad is back. And lucky for me, the president and CEO of Reproductive Freedom for All, Minnie Timaraju is here at the table. Minnie, why is this working?
- [33:29]
Minnie Timaraju
I mean, I think the governor did a good summary. The base is very hungry. Independents are hungry. Americans are infuriated by just the stream of lunacy coming out of this administration. And they want fighters. And I think Democratic governors, but Gavin Newsom in particular, are perfectly poised to be that front line fighting back. They have the legal authority, they have the ability to really frame the debate in a very proactive way. Gavin Newsom can point to policy, but he can also point to vibes. We were talking about vibes. I also think Gavin Newsom is uniquely qualified and suited for this moment. He's always been a very pugnacious personality. He loves a fight. And this is him at his best. This is really taking advantage of his strengths as somebody who likes to land punches and likes to get into the mud a little bit. And that's not what every Democratic elected official does.
- [34:27]
Nicole Wallace
I guess what worries me is that because he's doing this, it's news. I mean, do you see a point when the entire Democratic Party could be comfortable with this strategy?
- [34:36]
Minnie Timaraju
Yes. And I think they're getting more and more comfortable, I think, because we've always been the big tent party and we talk to and answer to so many diverse constituencies and so many different sensibilities, geographically, racially, ethnically. You have Democrats who are cautious. You have Democrats who are very thoughtful. And sometimes being so thoughtful about the various audiences you speak to can be a disadvantage. And being a little bit more bold and saying, like Gavin Newsom has said, I don't mind if I offend this constituency, something that I think some Democrats have to be cautious about. But he's willing to take that risk to land the bigger punches. I do think more and more Democratic policymakers and candidates are going to go in this direction, but they may not all be as comfortable and sophisticated about it as Gavin Newsom.
- [35:29]
Nicole Wallace
Eddie Glad. 30, 36 and 40. 30 is the number of Americans who support Donald Trump's signature economic policy. It's tariffs. 36. This is overall approval rating on the economy, and 40 is Donald Trump's approval rating. So you've got 60 to 70% of the American people waiting for someone to push back against either the policy or the rhetoric or the disinformation or the fear mongering. And I wonder what you make of, you know, this phenomenon that the one guy that's fighting, the one guy that's mocking him is the guy that's actually getting to him.
- [36:13]
Well, I mean, it says a lot about Donald Trump. First of all, it's always wonderful to see you, Nicole. It says a lot about Donald Trump. It says a lot about Donald Trump that Gavin Newsom is getting to him. And it says a lot about our politics that we're attracted to this. So I think you're absolutely right about that. This has become news because it actually reflects on the Democratic Party. But I want us to come at it from a different angle, that we have to be a bit cautious. We don't want to reduce this moment to kind of a pugilistic kind of contest where performance is at the heart of what. What we need in response to what Donald Trump is doing. I think it's important that we need fight, you know, the symbolic fight that Newsom mentioned, but it's also the substantive fight. And that substantive fight is not just simply resisting what Donald Trump is doing, but also presenting a viable counter that will get people excited. So it's not only kind of defending basic norms and values of democracy, it's also presenting a counter vision of the world that will get people excited across the ideological spectrum, and you have to fight for that. So I don't want us to kind of double down on what I take to be the degradation of American politics to performance alone, to brand and brand erosion kind of talk. I want us to fight for a world that we want, as opposed to just simply fighting to get clicks and likes.
- [37:43]
All right, let's have that conversation. As always, Eddie, taking me into the deep end. We'll do that on the other side of a quick break. Eddie and Minnie, stick around. We're back with Eddie and Minnie. So, Minnie, with so much on the line and with so many people dissatisfied and disapproving of Donald Trump's approval or policies and agenda, as I said, you know, 70% of Americans don't like his signature economic policy. He's underwater on immigration, economy. The number of people who think he's covering something up in the Jeffrey Epstein scandal is 81%. I mean, that's a massively huge number. And what we are constantly told is our tribal politics. What if the tribe isn't as big as Democrats think it is, and he's just speaking to sort of the loudest elements on the right. What opportunities are there to speak to a bigger swath of Americans?
- [38:35]
Minnie Timaraju
So, actually, you know, I'll say abortion and reproductive freedom is one of them.
- [38:39]
Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [38:40]
Minnie Timaraju
In every state where we have those ballot measures, we only won because independence and soft conservatives were crossing over and voting in support of reproductive freedom, bodily autonomy, abortion, access. That is a huge chunk of voters who are completely being alienated by Trump rfk, but also Mike Johnson, you know, John Thune, they're totally up for grabs. So we could be expanding the base, expanding the tent by actually talking to Republicans and not making assumptions about where they stand on some of these issues. More of them are with us on public policy policy than ever before, but they're not seeing the fight. And that's where you have the perfect opportunity for these governors, not just Newsom, but also folks like JB Pritzker, Wes Moore, to really stand up and fight Trump. But also point to the success of those same policies in their states where they've built broad coalitions and they've really advanced reproductive freedom and economic prosperity and so many other social goods that people care about.
- [39:37]
Nicole Wallace
Eddie, I want to come back to you on your point, which I think is about not fighting for the sake of fighting and for the vibes of being a fighter, but fighting for something that is the alternative to what is being carried out by the MAGA Republican Party. And I guess what I want to press you on is the idea that Democrats have this toxic brand. I understand that is what is in the polls, but I think that represents sort of damage that's been done to that brand from the right and the left right. There are people on the right that would never vote for a Democrat because they perceive them as totally out of step. But there are people on the left that don't like the fact that their party isn't fighting harder. Do you see it as sequential? You have to win and then you can enact a more progressive and fair and just agenda, or do you view it as essential? The first step is to sort of have a set of ideas that everyone agrees on?
- [40:40]
I think it's essential, Nicole. I think it's important for Democrats to put forward a counter vision of the world. I mean, look, there are the poll numbers and then there are the values that animate Project 2025, and they can be attentive to those poll numbers as they try to do the politics. But all the trains are running. As Gavin Newsom said, they're flooding the zone. And they're flooding the zone not just simply with the carnival bar, the president of the United States doing what he's doing, but they're flooding the zone with policies that follow their values. So what are the values? What is the conception of the good that animates the Democratic Party? How are we to think about workers? How are we to think about questions of broad policy with regards to education and health care, not just simply doubling down on what was because, remember, there is broad dissenter dissatisfaction with the state of politics, with the state of policy that in some ways fertilized the soil that produced maga. So we can't just simply long for what was. We have to begin to really defend those basic foundational norms of American democracy. We have to defend the frame. We have to counter punch in light of what they're attacking. But we also have to have an offensive plan. And I think that the offense has to include a different envisioned in the third way of the Democratic Party. Now, that's going to get me in a lot of trouble, but that third way has been part of the kind of toxicity of the brand, in my view. And I'm not saying that as someone who's on the far left, as it were. I'm saying that as someone who's just being purely descriptive. And I think in order to get out of that, there's going to have to be an effort, Nicole, to offer a broader, a more expansive vision of what the United States will look like in the 21st century.
- [42:22]
Mindy, you get the last word.
- [42:23]
Minnie Timaraju
So there are Democratic policymakers all throughout this country, mayors, attorneys general, governors, who are already showing the path both in prosperity, policy, compassion, doing things like free school lunches, you know, sensible programs for immigration, protecting their communities. Right. We have the talent and we have the policy. We've just got to do a better job. I say collectively, all of us, in highlighting the wins and not focusing so much on the circular firing squad and bringing each other down, we have a.
- [42:58]
Nicole Wallace
Lot to be proud of. Are you surprised that it's still going on?
- [43:01]
Minnie Timaraju
No. I think it's when you look back at 2017, anytime you have this kind of massive loss, I think there is a natural period of time of grief, of mourning, of analysis, of blame. But I'd prefer us to keep that a little bit in House and not be doing it so publicly because I truly believe that we have the talent, we have the heart, we have the proof. And if we highlight those wins, we'd be doing a lot better.
- [43:28]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, you also, like, as a former political practitioner, you also have the market available to you, right. You have 60 to 70% of Americans who are looking for something other than the party in power.
- [43:39]
Minnie Timaraju
Absolutely.
- [43:40]
Nicole Wallace
All right. So to be continued. My friends Minnie and Eddie, thank you both so much. When we come back, news today on those law firms that cut deals with Donald J. Trump. That's after a very short break. Democrats today are investigating whether the law firms that have capitulated to Donald Trump might be breaking the law. According to reporting in the New York Times, top House and Senate Democrats are investigating whether those firms are illegally doing free work for the Trump administration. That is according to letters sent to the law firms today from that Times report. Quote, the letter said that the work the firms were doing for the Commerce Department suggested, quote, that the administration's coercion of your law firm may be ongoing and escalating, end quote. We'll stay on top of that story when we come back. We mentioned this at the beginning of the program. Before we sign off, the numbers are in for Jimmy Kimmel's broadcast last night. We'll tell you what they are after a short break. If there is one thing every successful pro democracy movement has in common, it is good people who are willing to take a risk in the name of change. But singer and activist Joan Baez, who has spent her life taking those kinds of risks, believes the calculus of risk in the name of democracy has fundamentally changed under Donald Trump. What is the importance of taking risks if you can and if you believe and all my whatever career I've said.
- [45:10]
Michelle Norris
That social change cannot happen until somebody's.
- [45:13]
Nicole Wallace
Willing to take a risk. And I believe that. And I believe it's going to get scarier and scarier to take a risk. So this, those are things I have to figure out about risk because I.
- [45:24]
Michelle Norris
Always been willing to take it. You know, does my taking a risk, you know, it's affect my son.
- [45:33]
Nicole Wallace
My granddaughter Joan Baez is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. She is extraordinary. Scan the QR code on your screen to watch on YouTube or to download wherever you get your podcasts. Before we go, the numbers are in on Jimmy Kimmel's incredible moment last night. Ratings from Nielsen show that 6.26 million people tuned in last night and 26 million people watched his monologue on social media platforms. Forms. That does it for us. Thank you for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.