“It’s a gangster state”

Summary

Deadline: White House – Episode Summary: “It’s a Gangster State” Release Date: June 16, 2025

In this compelling episode of Deadline: White House, host Nicolle Wallace delves deep into the tumultuous political landscape of 2025, focusing on widespread protests against President Donald Trump’s administration, the alarming rise in political violence, and the intricate web of corruption and unethical practices within the highest office in the land. Through insightful discussions with key analysts and firsthand accounts from protestors, Wallace provides a comprehensive overview of the nation’s current state.

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1. Massive Nationwide Protests Against Trump’s Policies

(00:35 – 05:09)

Joy Reid opens the episode by highlighting a historic day of protests coinciding with Donald Trump’s birthday. Over 5 million people across the United States rallied against Trump’s administration, marking one of the largest demonstrations in the country’s history.

• Key Statistics:
  • 50,000 protesters in New York City
  • 70,000 in Seattle, Washington
  • 200,000 in Los Angeles
  • 80,000 in Philadelphia
  • Significant turnout in traditionally red states like Idaho and Minnesota

Reid emphasizes the unified national opposition, stating, “The urgency of the moment, the severity of the threat Donald Trump poses to American democracy was something you heard from nearly every protest in every corner of our country” (00:35).

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2. Voices of Resistance and Constitutional Defense

(05:09 – 14:26)

Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin delivered a powerful speech at the Philadelphia protest, denouncing Trump as a “monarch” and accusing him of leveraging his position for personal gain. Key points from his address include:

• Corruption Allegations:
  • Trump profiting from foreign relationships, including ties with Saudi Arabia, China, UAE, and Qatar.
  • Criticism of Trump's embrace of cryptocurrency, labeling it a “gaping open barn door” for illicit finances.

Raskin articulated the threat to democracy, asserting, “Democracy is the system which advances the idea that every single person matters and we all rise together. The opposite is a corrupt monarchical or dictatorial system” (05:09).

Alexandra Berzon, a Democratic analyst, echoed these sentiments, advocating for bipartisan immigration reform and condemning Trump’s pivot from mass deportations to targeting Democratic cities, which she views as an attempt to incite political civil war.

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3. Escalation of Political Violence and Its Consequences

(14:26 – 31:57)

The episode transitions to the harrowing account of Vance Bolter, accused of assassinating Minnesota state lawmakers. This act of political violence underscores the extreme divisions within the country. Former U.S. Senator Claire McCaskill and political analyst Tim Miller discuss the implications:

• Bolter’s Motives:
  • Targeting elected officials to disrupt their duties.
  • Possession of a list of over 45 state and federal officials, indicating premeditation.

Miller remarks, “He deserves due process… but the mountain of evidence makes the outcome of this case almost certain” (33:02).

Claire McCaskill highlights the disheartening response from Republican leaders, who have attempted to deflect blame by labeling Bolter as a Marxist, thereby inflaming partisan tensions further.

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4. President Trump’s Corruption and Grift Unveiled

(31:57 – 61:17)

Nicolle Wallace shifts focus to the pervasive corruption within the Trump administration. Former White House ethics lawyer Richard Painter and former deputy national security advisor Ben Rhodes uncover how Trump has transformed his presidency into a personal financial venture:

• Financial Exploits:
  • Trump reported over $600 million in income and $1.6 billion in assets.
  • Revenues from Trump-branded merchandise, including a $1.3 million royalty from a Trump-endorsed Bible and millions from watches, sneakers, and fragrances.

Painter emphasizes the danger of leveraging presidential power for personal gain, stating, “This is use of public office for private gang” (53:37).

Harry Lippman adds that Trump’s administration is deeply entwined with the cryptocurrency sector, posing significant financial risks. He warns of a potential crypto bubble fueled by unregulated investments, which could have catastrophic economic consequences.

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5. Legal Ramifications: Law Firms Capitulate Under Trump’s Orders

(61:17 – 74:11)

The discussion pivots to the alarming trend of top law firms capitulating to Trump’s unconstitutional executive orders. Former U.S. Attorney Harry Lippman and legal analysts Mike Schmidt and Kristi Greenberg dissect the implications:

• Executive Orders’ Impact:
  • Trump’s administration issued orders targeting law firms over dubious legal grounds.
  • Many firms reached settlements, paying substantial sums despite recognizing the orders as unconstitutional.

Claire McCaskill criticizes these firms for prioritizing profit over integrity, suggesting that their actions undermine the legal system’s foundational principles. She warns of future repercussions when Trump seeks legal compliance on more critical issues.

Mike Schmidt highlights the ethical dilemma faced by these firms, noting, “They went ahead and made these deals to protect their businesses” (67:41).

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6. Misinformation and Manipulation of Social Security Administration

(74:11 – 86:04)

The episode concludes with a deep dive into the Trump administration’s manipulation of the Social Security Administration (SSA). Alexandra Berzon reports how misinformation spearheaded by Elon Musk led to chaos within the SSA:

• False Claims:
  • Musk and Trump propagated the idea that 40% of SSA calls were fraudulent.
  • Internal memos from SSA employees debunked these claims, stating that the majority of alleged fraud cases were based on misunderstandings.

Claire McCaskill explains the administrative chaos caused by these false narratives, emphasizing the detrimental impact on millions of Americans who rely on SSA services.

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Notable Quotes

• Joy Reid: “The urgency of the moment, the severity of the threat Donald Trump poses to American democracy was something you heard from nearly every protest in every corner of our country.” (00:35)

• Jamie Raskin: “Democracy is the system which advances the idea that every single person matters and we all rise together.” (05:09)

• Richard Painter: “This is use of public office for private gang.” (53:37)

• Claire McCaskill: “I mean, I look at the lawyers at these firms who have caved to Trump, and they certainly know better.” (69:15)

• Harry Lippman: “These law firms are nowhere to be found. So I really think that, that there will come a time at some time in the near future where Trump's going to come to collect and we will see what these law firms are made of then.” (73:20)

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Conclusion

In “It’s a Gangster State,” Nicolle Wallace presents a stark portrayal of a nation grappling with unprecedented levels of political unrest, corruption at the highest levels, and the erosion of democratic norms. Through a series of expert analyses and firsthand accounts, the episode underscores the urgent need for bipartisan cooperation, robust legal safeguards, and a recommitment to the Constitution to navigate through these dark times.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Joy Reid]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the East. There's a two letter word that Donald Trump hates more than any other the word no. Since the earliest days of his second administration, the courts have said no. His first legal defeat actually came on January 23, just three days after his inauguration was when a judge blocked his order ending birthright citizenship for those born to undocumented immigrants. Since then, there have been at least 187 rulings that have at least temporarily paused Donald Trump's policies and orders. Countless lawmakers have stood up and said no. Cory Booker spent 25 hours and five minutes saying no, laying out his opposition to nearly every facet of Trump 2.0 in what was the longest speech ever delivered on the floor of the US Senate. Even the world's richest man and Donald Trump's biggest political benefactor, Elon Musk, found his way to no. His red line. His breaking point was Donald Trump's so called big beautiful bill. And now the American people in historic numbers have spoken up and said no. In a day of nationwide protests that broke all records, organizers say more than 5 million people turned out for the no Kings protest on Saturday. That was also the day of Donald Trump's birthday. According to one data analyst, it may have been the single biggest day of demonstrations in our country's history. 50,000 people showed up in New York City. 70,000 people marched in Seattle, Washington. In Los Angeles, where protests have been taking place all week against Donald Trump's immigration policies as well as his deployment of the National Guard against the wishes of that state's governor and Los Angeles city mayor, more than 200,000 people protested. This was the scene in Philadelphia, where 80,000 people were seen marching down the Ben Franklin Parkway waving flags and chanting. Over in San Francisco, people formed a human banner that spelled out no King on the shores of Ocean Beach. It wasn't just some blue state or blue city phenomenon. In deep red Idaho, thousands of people showed up in front of the Idaho Capitol building in Livingston, Montana, population 9,000. Hundreds of people lined the streets there. Even in Minnesota, where local officials urged people to skip the Protests because the gunman who shot and killed a Democratic state lawmaker and wounded another was at large. He was on the loose. Even there. Nearly 25,000 people gathered outside the state Capitol. Anyway, one person telling the Minneapolis Star Tribune this, quote, these people are trying to do what they can for their communities, for the state, for the nation, for the. The urgency of the moment, the severity of the threat Donald Trump poses to American democracy was something you heard from nearly every protest in every corner of our country.

[Claire McCaskill]

Was there a certain point in which.

[Joy Reid]

You decided you needed.

[Jamie Raskin]

And what was that point?

[Tim Miller]

Just arresting all the immigrants with no trials.

[Claire McCaskill]

Pat was there.

[Harry Lippman]

Yeah, that's similar.

[Richard Painter]

Right?

[Harry Lippman]

Seeing the images of masked people coming.

[Claire McCaskill]

And taking people away.

[Jamie Raskin]

No due process.

[Nicole Wallace]

We are here.

[Joy Reid]

We're not going anywhere. Okay?

[Alexandra Berzon]

We serve this country right here.

[Richard Painter]

Look, I give my life to this.

[Joy Reid]

Country, but we got to do it right. Not for this jerk, not for this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Guy protesting on behalf of someone.

[Joy Reid]

Yes. And also because this is against the Constitution.

[Claire McCaskill]

I feel like it's deeper than just deporting immigrants. It's going against our rights as people and especially as American citizens.

[Joy Reid]

I feel energized and I feel hopeful to be here around so many other.

[Nicole Wallace]

Like minded citizens standing up and protecting our democracy.

[Joy Reid]

Well, we haven't had a kid since 1776. We want to keep it that way. A nationwide wave of mass protests as the American people's birthday gift to Donald Trump is where we start today. Host of the Bulwark Podcast, MSNBC political analyst Tim Miller is here. Also Joining us, former U.S. senator, MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill's here. But first, I'm going to start with Democratic Congressman from Maryland, Jamie Raskin. He spoke at the no Kings event in Philadelphia. Let me play a little bit of that, Congressman, before we start.

[Alexandra Berzon]

No, you don't get to be a monarch or a dictator in America and you don't get to be on the payroll of monarchs and dictators from other countries. Sorry, Donald. You don't get to keep the millions of dollars you've pocketed from Saudi Arabia, from China, from the United Arab Emirates or Qatar. You've got to return all the money your golf courses and clubs have gotten from the Secret Service, the Department of Defense and Commerce and so on. Our government is not your personal ATM machine.

[Joy Reid]

Congressman. I watched some of that and I've seen more clips online. It was a soaring speech and the reaction was incredible. Just take me inside what it was like to give that speech. And if there was anything in the crowd's reaction that surprised You.

[Alexandra Berzon]

Well, it was exhilarating, Nicole, to be in Philadelphia with, you know, hundred thousand, 125,000 people marching in the street. I got to march the last couple of blocks with people when I arrived in Philadelphia, and Tim Snyder was there and Martin Luther King the third was there. It was just very moving. And there's this sense of the people all across the country taking our government back, defending our Constitution, and there is no way Donald Trump could organize rallies and marches like that across the country. So there was definitely something thrilling about the moment and for me, returning the first principles. Because Philadelphia, of course, is where it all started with the Declaration and the Constitution. And, you know, the first three words of the Constitution refute everything Donald Trump's been trying to do. We the people, we don't have kings here. We don't have monarchs and queens and dictators, and we don't, you know, allow our to engage in financial relationships with governments all over the world. That's right in the Constitution, the ban on foreign government emoluments, the ban on titles of nobility. So, you know, I said, none of us will ever get to be founding fathers in the 18th century, but we can be founding fighters in the 21st.

[Joy Reid]

I love that. I mean, I also noticed the response to what we shorthand as grift, but the corruption, I mean, and I mean, for those of us who've been covering Trump for nine years, he's been doing it the whole time. But there is something more brazen, there is something more directly transactional about the second presidency. And I wonder what your thoughts are about how much the public has taken in that for Trump, this is about enriching himself and enriching his family.

[Alexandra Berzon]

I mean, there's the $400 million bribe force, one jet from Qatar, completely brazen, totally in violation of the Constitution if you don't come to Congress first. There's also the fact that Donald Trump, who denounced crypto as just saturated with criminality, now has completely embraced it and created his own crypto meme coin, which is just this gaping open barn door for every anonymous foreign state, dictator, king, prince, mafia ring or pardon seeker to pour money directly into Donald Trump's pockets. And so, you know, whatever kind of varnish they had from the first administration is completely off now. They're not even pretending to do anything else. I mean, their first foreign trip was back to Saudi Arabia in the Middle east, not for any peace seeking purposes or no foreign policy agenda. It was a bunch of business deals. It was a business trip. So, look, corruption is the Opposite of democracy. Democracy is the system which advances the idea that every single person matters and we all rise together. The opposite of that is a corrupt monarchical or dictatorial system where you have a tiny group in society that uses public resources and private resources just to benefit themselves. And that's what we've got now. It's a gangster state.

[Joy Reid]

It's a gangster state. That's amazing. I mean, the number of signs opposing the immigration tactics was, to me, heartening, because I feel like the right has done a good job sowing a false narrative that immigration is Trump's issue and that Democrats are on defense, if they're even talking about it. But it turns out a lot of people were in the streets saying that absolutely no one should be deported with without due process. No one should be snatched off the street by men or women with masks on who disappear them into a van. Nobody wants that. What are you guys talking about as a party about the opportunities around immigration?

[Alexandra Berzon]

Well, you're right that people understand that either we have constitutional rights and protections for everybody in the country, or we don't have any at all. And that's why due process are the two most beautiful words in the English language. They separate our freedoms from the arbitrary power of the state. But I think Donald Trump gave the whole game away on Thursday, where apparently, after meetings with his Secretary of Agriculture and hearing from a bunch of large agribusiness executives and companies, he said, we are no longer going to be deporting people from farm states, meaning undocumented immigrants, because that's the backbone of that industry. And he said, these are good people who've been working hard, and they deserve better than just being rounded up and kicked out of country. It was amazing to hear him say that. But obviously, he'd heard from an important ingredient in his political coalition. But that unravels the entire argument for what they've been doing for the whole destruction of our Constitution. If these are good, hardworking people who are looking for a way in to America in farm country and in the hospitality and hotel industry, as he said, why not also in the construction sector, why not also in landscaping and restaurants and so on? But now he's pivoting to just make it a war against Democratic cities. And he's not even talking about immigration so much anymore. He just wants those scenes of violent confrontation between a federalized National Guard or the Marines and people who live in cities that have Democratic mayors or states that have Democratic governors. I mean, that's much more of an agenda to create a political civil war in America. And that's exactly what the vast majority of American people don't want. So I think that we're getting to that moment of the emperor has no clothes at all. And because he seems to be calling off that idea of the mass deportation. And look, I welcome that. I think we should come together and talk about a bipartisan immigration reform bill that everybody in the country can get behind at this point.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, he did call for essentially amnesty for everyone working in leisure hospitality and agriculture. Do you think there's a real opportunity to sit down with him and build on that policy?

[Alexandra Berzon]

Well, it's like at the end of the Biden administration, we had a bipartisan deal on the most vexing component of the immigration equation, which was the border, and we were there. And he blew it up because he didn't want a bipartisan immigration compromise. He wanted an immigration crisis to run against so he could demonize and scapegoat people. So he's got one foot still in that worldview. And now he's got one foot in the worldview. I think that most of the country lives in, which is we've got to figure out the situation. The reality is, is that there's nowhere else on earth where you have poor countries that share a border with a very rich country, in this case, the richest country in the world. So we obviously have an immigration problem. Let's sit down as prior generations of Democrats and Republicans have done before, and let's work out something that makes Sen. Without crashing our economy, because that's what the people in the farm sector are saying. That's what people in the construction sector are saying, that it will collapse if you actually could deport 12 million people. And it's obviously causing just terrible disquiet and emotional devastation in the country to be doing this to everybody's community.

[Joy Reid]

Congressman Jamie Raskin, it was a remarkable speech. Thank you for joining us today to talk about it and the road ahead. It's great to see you.

[Alexandra Berzon]

I appreciate that. Nicole. Thank you much.

[Joy Reid]

Claire McCaskill and Tim Miller. Claire, you and I were on the air together. It was a wild split screen is so overused and doesn't do it justice because it was, it was the protests, right? It was the manhunt and the tragic political, politically motivated killing. It was a world on fire. I mean, it was a wild day. But I think when you sort through the images and what we know today that we didn't know when we woke up Saturday, the resistance is more animated, it is bigger, it is more diverse and it is rooted in the things that the congressman is talking about. People that are fine debating policies, but have no interest in abandoning the Constitution. That's sort of the stuff that makes the country's history teachers beam. It feels so. It feels so earnest at a moment that has felt so bleak. But I wonder what you feel this sort of Monday morning as the dust settles.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I will tell you, I think it was joyful. I had family members participating all over the country, from some family that lives out in Portland to family in St. Louis and Austin, Texas. And all of them talked about being inspired by this sense of. There's so many other people out there that agree that we're going down a very dark path. And, you know, that makes me hopeful. Especially it makes me hopeful when it's the compare and contrast with the crowds that showed up for Donald Trump's $54 million birthday parade. But then this morning, I read the New York Times, Nicole, and an article really stuck with me. And I want talk about just for a second, if you'll give me just a second. A man and his cousin are American citizens. And there are. They're, they're second generation or third generation immigrants. And their parents were Hispanic. One of them was Mexico. Maybe one was Guatemala, I'm not sure. But they're American citizens. And an SUV rolls up to their business and three masked guys get out and throw this American citizen against a fence and scream in his ear, where were you born? Where were you born? They are profiling people based on how they look. This is not what we do in America. And they are being told to do this. They are being told to roll into places of business in majority Latino communities. And, and if someone looks like they're a Mexican, it doesn't matter if they're an American citizen. They are traumatized. They are traumatized as American citizens. That's not who we are. So everybody get your tennis shoes on. Everybody lace up. We can't stop protesting. We can't stop saying, this is not America. Trump may be backing up on the parts of his plan that impact his biggest supporters and donors. Rural America, which is heavily agriculture, or the, or the entertainment industry, the leisure industry, which he's a part of. But there are still these small business people that live in Latino communities that are American citizens that are being abused by people in the name of enforcing the law. And we cannot stand for that in this country.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, I mean, Tim, the other side of the glory of the size and scope and depth of the protests is it has to be pretty Bad historically for people to spend a day protesting, especially against an administration that, as Claire points out, has shown no limits. They handcuffed a sitting US Senator last week.

[Mike Schmidt]

Yeah, no, look, I mean, it was an encouraging day for sure. I was at the protests in New Orleans and I agree with everybody's comments about the spirit of it. But if you just look at what happened in the past week, right. And you have military in the streets of Los Angeles over the objection of the governor, threats to jail or tar and feather the governor from the administration, even if they're joking, not in the American tradition. We have the assassinations of one Democratic state legislator and an attempted assassination of another in Minnesota. So if you put all that together, yeah, we're in a dark place that all of this was necessary across the country. So it was encouraging and uplifting to see it. But the fight continues. And I just want to echo Claire's point. I agreed with, with almost everything that Congressman Raskin said, but with this caveat, I just, I'll believe it when I see it. On Donald Trump backing off on the immigration enforcement in some of these industries, I certainly do believe that his friends, the rich hoteliers, probably won't have their hotels rated. But we saw what he posted this morning was that they want, like he said herewith, we must, you know, have the largest deportation in history. And in order to do that, they need to harass a lot of people that aren't eligible for deportation. They need to deport a lot of people who have been here for a long time who haven't committed any crimes. And they're going to continue to do that. And I think that what trickles out from his demands is a bunch of sheriffs and US Attorneys and ICE agents all across the country in blue states and red states that are emboldened. So they're going to target blue cities. For sure. They want this fight. But I agree with Claire, more protesting is going to need to happen because what they are intending to do this summer when it comes to immigration is deeply un American, deeply wrong and in the authoritarian playbook. And while they couldn't put on a very successful birthday boy parade, they have been pretty successful so far at terrorizing recent immigrants to the country. And they're going to continue to do it.

[Joy Reid]

I need you guys to stick around for the hour with me. When we come back, we're going to zoom in. One of the protesters who was arrested was an 87 year old veteran practicing his First Amendment right of calling out his government, calling it fascism. Jacob Sobroff joins us next and some of the other demonstrators who showed up this weekend. Plus, we're learning much more today about the man accused of assassinating a Minnesota state lawmaker, the US Attorney saying he was targeting dozens of other officials in his heavily planned cold blooded ambush. We'll have the latest on that. And later, profiting off the presidency from Trump and many of his family members to many members of his professional inner circle. We'll look at the dangers of having a corrupt commander in chief. All those stories and more with Deadline. White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Tim Miller]

Today.

[Nicole Wallace]

It'S conversation, it's perspective. It's the weekend on MSNBC with three new dynamic hosts, Jonathan Capehart, Eugene Daniels and Jackie Alemani. And in the evening, it's the Weekend Prime Time with Eamonn Mohadin, Katherine Rampel, Elise Jordan and Antonia Hilton. Join them as they offer analysis on the week's most important events and set the agenda for the week ahead. The weekend at 7am eastern and the weekend prime time at 6pm eastern. Saturdays and Sundays on MSNBC. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Joy Reid]

I do think it's worth being very.

[Nicole Wallace]

Clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here. Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for MSNBC Daily at MSNBC.

[Joy Reid]

Take a close look at your screen. This is 87 year old John Spitzberg. He traveled from Gainesville, Florida to Washington, D.C. he was arrested for peacefully protesting over the weekend. Spitzberg was a part of a group of dozens of veterans who were protesting outside the U.S. supreme Court and U.S. capitol building. He's just one of the countless veterans, people who served our nation and swore an oath to the Constitution who took to the streets this weekend on Saturday. Thanks to my colleague Jacob Soborough, we all met another Ross Fuentes. He joined the Marines when He was just 17 years old. Ross was one of the thousands who took to the streets of Los Angeles to protest the Trump administration's immigration policies. Let's bring in my colleague, NBC News correspondent Jacob Sobroff. He's in Los Angeles for us. And you're not alone.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm not Nicole. I'm joined again by Ross Fuentes, the 25 year old who enlisted in the Marines at age 17, who I met in the middle of that scrum, in the middle of that protest, Ross. And it was a lot louder than it is right now. So we wanted to meet back up with you and see. Let me just ask you, first and foremost, you went out there as a Marine to protest face to face with current Marines who are out there at the direction of the President. It's been two days. That was a very hectic environment. How do you feel today, two days later?

[Jamie Raskin]

Honestly, boss, I feel relaxed. I feel good. The fact that I'm able to practice my First Amendment right, which is what I signed up to go to the military for, is a beautiful thing. That's the thing that I love about this country.

[Nicole Wallace]

I was hearing from all kinds of people on social media, people who were incredibly, incredibly inspired by you and your courage to talk about how, you know, you went into the Marine Corps not only to serve your country and because you love your country, but because you did it for your parents. It was a way for them to get a pathway to citizenship. Am I right to say that?

[Jamie Raskin]

I mean, when I went in is my beliefs. Like I said, I love serving my country. I love serving for others. I wanted to make sure that they still have the rights to be able to talk, freedom of speech, everything. And then later on, my parents papers came by.

[Nicole Wallace]

You serving your parents were able to get legal status in the United States. You know, I didn't realize this about you when we were out there together on Saturday, but you have been going out to the protests every single day. You just. Can you show our viewers what you just showed me? Paramount, where some of the protests were, have been around the corner. What is this? What happened here?

[Jamie Raskin]

I got shot. I got shot multiple times. I was there the first day, to be honest with you. I wanted to show my support for the community. So I went out there. But I still got shot. I got shot multiple times. I got shot right here. Got shot in my leg by one.

[Nicole Wallace]

Of those rubber bullets. And you said you've been going out to protest every day. You said you were arrested on Tuesday. It's the first time you've ever been arrested. Protesting. As a Mexican American U.S. citizen Marine who is unhappy with the policies of the Trump administration. What was it like to get arrested for your first time protesting the actions of the Trump administration and honestly, protesting people who are doing what you did at 17 years old until you were 22 years old?

[Jamie Raskin]

Honestly, it sucked. Like I said, I've never been to jail. I've never stepped in jail. It sucked. But I don't regret doing it because it's for something I believe in. If you believe in something, you're gonna go to any extent to show that you believe in it. You're gonna put your heart out to it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is the way that law enforcement and the. Especially the military and the National Guard that are guarding these federal buildings, but really local law enforcement, too, cracking down on protesters. It was an intense scene out there on Saturday. Is the way that they're acting gonna stop you from going out and continuing to protest what's happening here?

[Jamie Raskin]

Honestly, when people are passionate about something, they're gonna keep doing it. It doesn't matter to what extent other entities try to push it to. We're gonna still keep going and supporting our people.

[Nicole Wallace]

How many people do you think, think there are that are opposed to the policies this administration, like you, Latinos, Hispanics, Mexican Americans, people from other who have heritage from other Latin American countries, who might have served in the armed forces and are opposed to the current policies of this administration?

[Jamie Raskin]

There's plenty of people like that. A lot of them just don't want to talk about it. They're scared. I feel like they're scared about it. They don't want to talk about it. All I can say for those people is not to be scared. There's a reason we served in the military for. We fought for a right, and we have the right to go out and show what we fought for.

[Nicole Wallace]

If there was something that you could share about what's motivating you the most in this moment. You know, it takes a lot to come out when people in your community right here are being targeted by immigration enforcement. A lot of people are from mixed status families just like the one that you were from. What can you tell them about where this is all coming from within?

[Jamie Raskin]

This is a country of immigrants. From the very start of this country, it's been ran by immigrants. That's our foundation. That's what we run on. Immigrants make this country great. This isn't a country based on a certain skin color. It's a mix. It's a country with different colors. And I truly believe in that. I believe that us working together, we make a better team together than fighting against each other. Great thing. The great quote that I think of with that is like Abraham Lincoln when he said, house cannot stand divided by itself. Instead of thinking about how can I think of the country we can't stand divided against each other.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's amazing to me, Ross and Nicole, to you as well. When we talked last time, Ross pulled out the quote From President Kennedy.

[Joy Reid]

Ask not what your country can do.

[Nicole Wallace]

For you, but ask what you can do for your country. And now he's thinking about Abraham Lincoln. You know, it's clear where Ross's heart is and where this is coming from.

[Joy Reid]

I want to ask both of you, Ross, if you can hear me, what would you do if you were One of the 700 Marines activated and deployed to the streets of Los Angeles?

[Jamie Raskin]

I'm going to be honest with you. To be honest with you, they're in a hard situation. Like I said, I've been in their shoes before, so I already know how it is. You can't really talk about. You can't talk against the government when you're in the service. You can't. And that's the sad thing about it. I wish people in the military or that work for the government were able to talk about how they feel, but sadly, they're not. So if I was to put myself in their shoes, I understand where they're coming from, too. You can't really judge them. Like I said, these protests are to be peaceful. It's not for us to be attacking. No police enforcement, no military. We got to respect it because at the end of the day, they do have a job job, and they're protecting and serving our communities at the end of the day.

[Joy Reid]

Jacob, tell Ross to stay close. Yeah, go ahead.

[Nicole Wallace]

I was just going to say to listen to Ross, to get to know him in sort of the heat of the moment in the protests, but now to sit with him here. It's a fine line for somebody like Ross to walk, to be able to be out here, to know that there are people that were in his shoes that are standing there today. And the courage and the bravery of this guy. You know, I can't thank him enough.

[Joy Reid]

And you, Nicole, thank you both. Let's keep the conversation going because I think we have a big day tomorrow, right? We'll learn the fate of the lawsuit between the state of California and the National Guard being there. But the story isn't going anywhere. We're going to keep turning to both of you. And my thanks to Jacob and Ross. Thanks for us. The suspect in the targeted shootings of Minnesota lawmakers made his first appearance in federal court a short time ago. The man who callously calculated the attacks could face the death penalty. We'll bring you the latest on all that next. Late this afternoon, the man charged in the fatal shooting of a Minnesota Democratic lawmaker and her husband, along with the wounding of another Democratic lawmaker and his wife, appeared in federal court for the very first time Following a sprawling manhunt of the weekend, the largest in Minnesota's history, State attorneys charged 57 year old Vance Bolter with first degree murder today among other counts. Then in a separate six count complaint, the federal authorities likewise charged him with two counts of murder, something that could ultimately result in the death penalty. Earlier, Joe Thompson, the acting U.S. attorney for Minnesota, described Bolter's crimes.

[Mike Schmidt]

It is no exaggeration to say that his crimes are the stuff of nightmares. Belter stalked his victims like prey. He went to their homes, held himself out as a police officer and shot.

[Nicole Wallace]

Them in cold blood. Belter planned his attack carefully.

[Mike Schmidt]

He researched his fam, his victims and their families.

[Nicole Wallace]

He used the Internet and other tools to find their addresses and names, the names of their family members.

[Mike Schmidt]

He conducted surveillance of their homes and took notes about the location of their homes. He also prepared in other ways. He concealed himself as a police officer, outfitting his black SUV with police lights.

[Nicole Wallace]

And a police license plate, wearing a.

[Mike Schmidt]

Black tactical vest and body armor, carrying a police flashlight and a handgun. And of course, he wore that hyper.

[Nicole Wallace]

Realistic silicone mask as seen on the surveillance videos.

[Joy Reid]

Thompson went on to use the phrase political assassination, implying it was an extension of increasingly violent political extremism in our country. And while authorities haven't yet shared what if anything, Bolter has shared in terms of a motive, we do know who his targets were. Officials said today the suspect actually went to the homes of four state politicians with the intent to kill. We also know he had in his possession a list across a number of notebooks found in his car containing the names of more than 45 state and federal elected officials, including what law enforcement called abortion rights supporters. This morning, the commissioner of the Minnesota Department of public safety told NBC's Today that they are looking into whether or not the killing of Melissa Hortman along with her husband Mark is related to her work. Adding this quote, it certainly would appear so. Tim Miller and Claire McCaskill are back with us. Claire, it's as the U.S. attorney there said, it is the nightmare scenario.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, this man, first of all, there's going to be just bundles of evidence. I don't think the outcome of this case is in much question. He deserves due process. He will get due process. But there certainly is a mountain of evidence. And the thing that you have to have to get to the most serious homicide case at the state level and at the federal level is this premeditation and obviously this notebook and the care he went to to oppose as a Police officer all goes to that. Both the state case will be first degree murder charges and the federal case. The only difference is in Minnesota, it's life without parole, whereas in the federal case, they have the option of the death penalty. It'll be interesting to see who ends up trying the case and where he ends up actually having this case heard. You know, just keep in mind, Nicole, that the Hinneman county prosecutors, there are probably at least 10 prosecutors there that have tried dozens and dozens and dozens of homicide cases. Very unusual for federal prosecutors to try homicides. The reason they have jurisdiction in this case is because he targeted people in more than one state and because he targeted elected officials, trying to keep them from doing their jobs. Typically, the federal government wouldn't even have jurisdiction on a homicide case. So this will be interesting to see it play out. It's a tragedy. I think the thing that made me the most angry is Donald Trump afterwards saying, taking the opportunity to slam Governor Walls at that moment. I mean, our instincts are to come together after a tragedy like this. That's the human instinct. What kind of person who's the leader of a country uses that moment to trash the governor of the state that has just gone through this horrific experience? It's just hard to understand this guy and why he treats people like this.

[Joy Reid]

Well, I guess, Tim, I would say after nine years, nothing should surprise any of us. On this, though, I reached out to Esther Salas, who has generously opened up her trauma and grief at having her son murdered at her home. Because of her job, she's a judge. There was a disgruntled litigant who came looking for her and murdered her son. And she said the rhetoric has to change and everybody is responsible or can do something about that. What are your thoughts in the wake of this tragic. What was described in the moments after it? A political assassination.

[Mike Schmidt]

Yeah, two thoughts. Before I start raging at the Republican response, I do think it'd be appropriate to mention Yvette Hoffman, who's the wife of John Hoffman, who were targets of this. I believe at this point, they seem likely to survive. Yvette jumped on her daughter to shield her and protect her and was shot several times by this alleged assassin. And so a lot of times in these cases, I just think it's important to mention those folks. So we're hearing about the heroes as well as the next group of people I'm gonna talk about. But the response on the right to this has just been absolutely deranged. I mean, not random. Sometimes you have me on Nicole to Ask me what they're saying on random fever swamps of right wing blogs. I'm not even talking about those folks. All the way up to Elon Musk, richest man in the world, former shadow president, two United States senators, Mike Lee and Bernie Moreno and a bunch of other very prominent right wing media folks are still up until this moment trying to claim that this person is a Marxist. They invented some rationale that I guess one of the victims had voted against something that Tim Walls was pushing through with regards to care for undocumented immigrants or something. And so they were accusing Tim Walls, even Mike Lee, US Senator Mike Lee was kind of obliquely accusing Tim Walls of this and then directly accusing Marxism of this. I mean, this is like a deep brain rot and it is infecting all of their followers. It's infecting people all around the country. And at a moment, whereas Claire said, you know, we should be trying to bring people together and tamp down the rhetoric, Rick, what they're doing is inciting people more. And at a moment where Democratic legislators were targeted and in one case killed by an assassin, these very influential people, elected senators, top advisors to the president, richest man in the world, all out there trying to say, no, it's actually far left people that are doing this type of violence and that kind of implying that that is radicalizing people more towards the victims. So I know it's been really kind of disheartening to watch all that because it's absolutely. And it's crazy, but it also is. It's dangerous.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. And there's an aversion to look away, to say, oh, it can't be, but it's all connected. Right. The millions of people in the street are looking at the mirrors we try to hold up every day to show you what is on the other side. And what I find so confounding is you cannot convince me that it would have been a political loser to simply grieve the loss of life. That's it. That's all you had to do as a person with a platform. If you were from the right, the left, where the right meets the left. I mean, wherever you're from on the spectrum, all you had to do was be fricking gutted that someone in the political arena or in the public space lost their life alongside their spouse and that two others were fighting for their lives. That was it. That was the whole expectation of anyone being human. And the Republicans you listed, Tim, failed. And there were others. I want to press both of you on where we go from There. I have to sneak in a quick break. We'll all be right back.

[Richard Painter]

A moment in this country where we watched violence eruption, this cannot be the norm. It cannot be the way that we deal with our political differences. Now's the time for us to recommit to the core values of this country, and each and every one of us can do it. Talk to a neighbor rather than arguing, debate an issue, shake hands, find common ground.

[Joy Reid]

Claire there's reporting today about this as another metric of the toxicity of our politics, that we live in a post political violence world. Post January 6th, where hundreds of officers were injured, where people lost their lives due to suicide, post two attempts on Donald Trump's life, post attacks on Governor Shapiro, post a kidnapping attempt on Governor Whitmer. What does the coalition look like to break the fever if the fever keeps spiking?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I think it's a really hard problem. I think passions are running very high right now for, frankly, I think for a lot of good reason, stuff's going on that, you know, he's losing in court because he's doing things that presidents have never done before and people are upset. But there should just be a new rule. If anybody is the victim of political violence, we all unite. It doesn't matter who it is. Anybody who is a victim of political violence deserves our empathy and deserves a response that shows our humanity and not our politics, not our tribal warfare. That's what's so disappointing when it's so extreme, when it's an assassination of a state legislator in her home with her husband, and when another state legislator's wife is shielding his daughter, her daughter, from multiple gunfire from this assassin. If that isn't a moment that we can all set it all aside and say, you know, this is terrible, this is terrible that our country, this is happening. A lot of complicated reasons got us here, but the only thing that I think will get us out of this is all of us committing to say all political violence is bad, no matter who the victim.

[Joy Reid]

Tim.

[Mike Schmidt]

Yeah, look, I mean, I think we often just recognize that even that in ourselves and everybody, there's a desire to want to be part of a side that is doing something righteous or good or that's not on the side of evildoers, Right? And so sometimes it can be easy to nudge people into this space where they start to believe things that aren't true or be not thoughtful about the other side. And I'm sure some of you guys have heard, I've heard people say to me that, oh, they think that the Butler assassination attempt on Trump was staged or whatever. And it's like, well, no, it wasn't. A man died that day. He was a MAGA person. And that's really sad. And it's sad for his family. And we should just be truthful about what happened and, you know, we don't have to lie about who the shooter was that day like some on the right have. But, you know, I think it's just important for everybody to kind of recognize in these moments it's important to just, just be truthful, be empathetic, be compassionate. The problem with that, as you guys know, is that there's just, there is one political party with leaders in the Republican side that just doesn't play by those rules right now. And I think back to like the time just before I was born. Like there was a lot of political violence in the 60s and 70s, right? Probably more than now as far as high level assassinations. And we came back from that. But you had mostly leaders, mostly there were some irresponsible people then, but mostly leaders in both major political parties that were like trying to bring the country together, you know, in that next in the ensuing decades. And like that's just not happening on one side right now. Like you just as long as Donald Trump is president, that's just not in his makeup to try to bring the country together. It doesn't really seem like it's in J.D. vance's makeup. We haven't seen a lot from him on that front. We've seen a lot of divisiveness from him. And so, you know, now we see the senators spreading conspiracy theories and we saw it with the Nancy Pelosi's husband when he was attacked, the spreading of conspiracy theories. So that part heart is the tough one to break when you got one side's leaders that won't do what is right in the wake of tragedies.

[Joy Reid]

Tim, you talked about telling the truth no matter what. I want to press you on that in a really buzzy and important interview that you did on the other side of a very short break. Stay with us. Tim Miller, I've known Terry Moran for as long as I've worked in politics. Longtime ABC reporter, historic. His defense of the tweet he sent was that it was the truth and he stands by it. Tell me about your conversation with him.

[Mike Schmidt]

Yeah, I talked to him this morning for our Forward podcast and look, what he's trying to say I think is pretty simple. What's the difference between what is being objective and being truthful?

[Joy Reid]

You don't sacrifice is not to be objective.

[Nicole Wallace]

There is no Mount Olympus of objectivity.

[Harry Lippman]

Where a man, gender and class of.

[Nicole Wallace]

Wise people have no feelings about their society.

[Joy Reid]

Go ahead, Tim. Sorry, I think that was a technical malfunction. Go ahead.

[Mike Schmidt]

That's all right. Well, you could see, you could see how cute we looked, at least on it. Look, he's talking about the difference between what is objective and what is true. Right. And sometimes there's pressure in media to try to be falsely fair, to try to be objective, to be fair to both sides. And he's like his tweet about Stephen Miller and his hateful rhetoric was truthful. And I think that the ABC cracking down on him comes in the context of ABC kind of folding around the George Stephanopoulos lawsuit and other examples of this from the media. And Terry, as you know, reported in Russia and has reported in authoritarian regimes. And I think he was very fair about all of it when we talked. He's not saying we're going to be Russia or we're already Russia, but he's saying he's seeing some concerning hints where people have to be careful about what they say, even if it's the truth or they might suffer retribution. And so I'm happy he's out there speaking the truth and he's doing some independent media stuff now and was happy to talk to him for the pod.

[Joy Reid]

It's so good. It's so, so, so good. You guys are so good together. Tim Miller and Claire McCaskill, thank you so much for being here. Really important day. Thanks to both of you. When we come back, we'll turn to the Trump grift getting griftier. Ever so griftier. Much more news to come. Come, don't go anywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

Introducing the Weeknight on msnbc, join hosts Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for a spirited conversation challenging each other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day.

[Claire McCaskill]

It's about knowing what you are for.

[Joy Reid]

Who you are for.

[Mike Schmidt]

That's what politics is about, is engagement.

[Nicole Wallace]

We are going to dive deeper into.

[Claire McCaskill]

The legal side of today's breaking news.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Weeknight, Monday through Friday at 7pm Eastern on MSNBC. I'll say, sorry, fellas, no interest because I don't need anybody's money.

[Joy Reid]

It's nice.

[Nicole Wallace]

I don't need anybody's money. I'm using my own money. I'm not using the lobbyists.

[Joy Reid]

I'm not using donors. I don't care. I'm really rich. I'll show you that.

[Nicole Wallace]

No second. And by the way. I'm not even saying that in a bragging. That's the kind of mindset, that's the.

[Joy Reid]

Kind of thinking you need for this country. So because we got to make the country rich. Oh, that was then, this is now. Hi again, Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the east. That was actually 10 years ago to the day Donald Trump descended the golden escalator at Trump Tower and announced his run for the party presidency the first time. And while doing so, he of course brought up and talked at length about his wealth and how it would actually be an asset if he were to become the country's leader. Fast forward 10 years and Donald Trump has used his position to not only govern, but to enrich himself as well. From a seemingly immeasurable amount of Trump branded merchandise to his business making foreign deals, the grift has known no bounds. New reporting in the Washington Post reveals a lot about his finances last year when he was running for president for a third time. From that report, quote, Trump reported over $600 million in income and $1.6 billion in assets in a public financial disclosure filed late Friday, including cryptocurrency holdings, income from properties, and lucrative licensing deals with foreign developers. The report shows he made $1.3 million in royalties for a bible endorsed by him and Lee Greenwood, along with $2.8 million from Trump branded watches, $2.5 million for Trump sneakers and fragrances, and $3 million for his book Save America. Now that he is president again, the money machine shows no signs of stopping or slowing. Just today, the Trump Org announced a mobile phone service complete with a global gold smartphone. According to reporting in the New York Times, this weekend's military parade, in addition to having a huge price tag for the American taxpayers of tens of millions of dollars, quote, was sponsored by at least four brands that have strong financial ties and political ties to President Trump, raising questions about whether the event benefited his allies and supporters. So other than the ick factor of just how unethical and low can you go sponsoring the military parade, why does any of this matter to any of us in our day to day lives? Friend of this show Ben Rhodes answers that question for us in a recent op ed by writing this quote, our political system is being transformed into something that no longer serves the people. Indeed, the US Is seemingly becoming just another country with a corrupt strongman personalizing and profiting from that power. That is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends, former White House ethics former deputy national security advisor to President Obama MSNBC contributor Ben Rhodes is back. Also joining us, former chief White House ethics lawyer under George W. Bush, who wouldn't even let us have a soda or a coffee purchased for us when we worked for President Bush is here. Richard Painter, Ben Rose, take me inside the why this matters parts of the story, because we could have gone on for 25 minutes with all the examples and incidents of grift. And there are things that are easy to touch and see, like the Bible that he marketed or the gold watch. But there are things that are much, I think, more insidious. The crypto investors coming to the White House. The sun's going off to the Middle east ahead of an official trip, announcing deals and hotels. But take me inside what you wrote. Right? Yeah.

[Harry Lippman]

I think the important thing, Nicole, is that actually what people should be most concerned about is not the gold phones and the Trump Bibles.

[Joy Reid]

Okay.

[Harry Lippman]

You know, if they're, if there are some MAGA superfans out there who want to pay a markup for some dumb product like that, you know, that's kind of gross, but it doesn't really impact the American people writ large. What I'm focused on is leveraging the awesome power of the United States government for personal product.

[Joy Reid]

It.

[Harry Lippman]

Let me give a couple of examples here. You have the Trump family deeply invested in crypto. The securities and Exchange Commission is no longer regulating crypto. You had a $2 billion investment from the United Arab Emirates into Trump Coin before the trip that Donald Trump took out to the region where he announced essentially no restrictions on the most sensitive technology in the world, advanced semiconductors, artificial intelligence, going to the Gulf. Why does that matter? Well, what if there's a crypto bubble, Nicole, because nobody's regulated this industry. What if the entire financial system is put at risk because of the absence of any regulations, because of all the influence pedaling that's been going on there that could impact all of us. Right. What about AI? The reason that there are restrictions on how it moves out in the world is it's going to be hugely disruptive to American jobs. It presents huge security risks.

[Nicole Wallace]

Risks.

[Harry Lippman]

Well, if you can buy the deregulation of AI with potentially a $2 billion investment in Trump Coin, then we just don't know how the US Government can make decisions about whether to regulate crypto rather to regulate AI or not. To take one last example, There was a $1.5 billion investment announced in Vietnam in a Trump golf course in the window after the 46% tariffs were announced. Announced on Vietnam during the period when so called deals are supposed to be negotiated. Was that investment facilitated by the Vietnamese government because they sincerely won a billion and a half dollar Trump golf course in Vietnam, or was that an effort to get out from under tariffs? And so the point is, these hugely consequential things, tariffs, AI crypto, are being leveraged potentially for profit by Trump and his family and his organization. And the American people who have a lot at stake here, here, could suffer for it. That is different from the kind of corruption when you're selling Bibles, that is using the power of the office and the power of the federal government potentially to profit yourself, your family, your associates or your organization.

[Joy Reid]

I want to unpack all three. I have some reporting on all three. The crypto grift, the deal with Vietnam and the regulatory issues. But I want to pause here and ask you, Richard Painter, what safeguards remain? Because this is a nine year project and in the first term it almost feels quaint that there was reporting and scrutiny over who was paying for rooms at Trump's hotel. This is about having his tentacles wrapped deep inside regulatory bodies for which there is no more regulation and just Trump and his cronies messing around. There's also very little visibility into investments that are made by Trump and his allies. And the information that flows, there's just no transparency. And I wonder from this juncture forward, for the next three and a half years, what checks remain in the system?

[Richard Painter]

I think the only check that's going to work here is Congress, a Congress elected by voters who finally decide they're fed up and disgusted. And take for example this situation where the President of the United States is earning royalties selling Bibles. He didn't write the Bible. Why is he getting royalties from that? I don't think he's read the Bible or he wouldn't be treating immigrants this way. You know, the way people are being treated by this government under his authority is really disturbing. A lot of American voters are very upset. And to see him making huge amounts of money, not only selling Bibles, but selling everything else else. And the cryptocurrency situation here, where we have an inflation of assets of a unregulated financial vehicle, more and more money being poured into crypto. He's going to set up a crypto reserve with taxpayer money through the Federal Reserve. He put out executive order on crypto his first day or two in office. While he is profiting, making enormous amounts of money. He made $600 million last year. How much money is he going to make this year now that he's President of the United States and they're going to work this crypto market up into a bubble. And yes, like every other financial bubble, it will end very, very badly. That's what we saw with securities based swap agreements in 2008 that destroyed our economy when we deregulated the banks under President Clinton. We failed to re regulate got a handle on this under President Bush. But at least we didn't have the President of the United States trading in securities based swap agreements and mortgage backed securities alongside Lehman Brothers and the Wall street folks. This time around we got a president and various other people close to political power who want to make enormous sums of money off what could very well be a financial bubble that causes great havoc to our economy down the road. That may be two, three years from now or could be five years from now when this crypto bubble collapses. The asset price is going up and up. And I keep asking the question, what's backing this currency up other than a lot of noise coming out of the White House.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. Let me read from today's reporting. Ben on bitcoin mining. On a Wall street conference call in April, Eric Trump made a pitch for the newest venture in his family's rapid, rapidly expanding cryptocurrency empire into bitcoin mining. President Trump is already financially intertwined with two other crypto ventures, a so called Meme Coin created by a longtime business partner and a separate company, World Liberty Financial that he and his sons founded before the election. At the same time, he has ended a years long enforcement campaign against crypto companies by the SEC and vowed to sign legislation that would advance. The industry's priorities were so many train stops beyond normal ethics and transparency that I'll put the same question to you that I put to Richard Painter. What checks remain in the system against not just grift, but again, I mean those laws exist in some ways to protect a policymaker from being extorted or threatened or blackmailed. I mean what, what checks do you see remaining in the system?

[Harry Lippman]

I don't see checks right now, Nicole, because the reality is as you said, these things would have been absolutely shocking like eight years ago when people paid attention to like Saudis getting expensive hotel rooms on Trump properties. Now on the, on the crypto industry spent more money in the last election cycle than anybody else the first day that they announced the new SEC chairman and well, shortly after you have the cancellation of all these investigations on crypto. Right. What message does that send? It says that the, the watchdogs, the SEC is not going to watch this space, what message does that spend send around the world? It sends a message that if you want to curry favor with the Trump family and the President states maybe one way to do that is to invest in his crypto venture to take this another step. Nicole, the partner in this new crypto venture with the Trump family, family is Steve Witkoff son, the son of the guy who's the emissary to seemingly every region in the world and certainly the Middle east for Trump. And so you see Emirati money coming into crypto. You see Pakistan set up a crypto council out of nowhere so that they can get favor. You see, we don't know because crypto is so opaque. But reportedly lots of foreign sources plowing money into Trump crypto ventures, literally paying for the privilege of having dinner with Donald Trump.

[Joy Reid]

Trump.

[Harry Lippman]

And if Congress is not going to step in and regulate, they could, Congress could investigate this, Congress could regulate this, but they're not going to under the Republican Congress. And so that leads us to a situation where we are like, as I wrote in that piece, there are other corrupt countries where this is how you do business. You know, you want to get out from under tariff or you want a certain kind of trade preference or you want something in the security space. Well, maybe you pay off the son in law, you know, know, or maybe you make an investment in something that is tied to the leadership. That's what is happening United States. But what's so scary about it is we're not a medium sized country. We're the strongest military in the world. You mentioned the parade, for instance. Palantir has a huge desire to get billions and billions and tens of billions of dollars in contracts in the Pentagon to do sensitive matters, potentially surveillance type technologies. Do we really think that, you know, they're just making investments in the Trump military parade because they, they want a good seat at the parade or because they have an interest. And I think the key point here is that the American people, the American media really needs to pay attention to this because it is to me one of the, it's hiding in plain sight as a lead story of the Trump administration. And again, it matters to you. You will be hurt. In a financial bubble, Trump cuts things that don't profit him. He doesn't benefit from rural health care clinics. He doesn't benefit from the va. He benefits from crypto crypto. So guess where he's spending his time and attention. And so the things that Americans count on are less important to Trump. The things that Trump can profit on are more important to Trump. That's what it appears to be. And that is something that I think the Democratic Party and the opposition really needs to connect these dots for people. It's not just that it's gaudy and gross. It's that it means that the things that matter to you in your lives are less important than the things that might matter to Trump, his family and his associates.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, I mean, I think this is a failure of imagination. Right. I mean, people think of kickbacks and bribes in the context of, at least culturally, mob movies. They don't think about them in the context of the functions of government. Richard, you're quoted in the New York Times reporting on the parade. Let me read from that report. Attendees who sought relief from the sweltering heat on the National Mall found free cans of a new energy drink brand sponsored by Dana White. Dana White is the chief executive of the Ultimate Fighting Championship and one of Trump's staunchest allies. Palantir, who Ben was just talking about, the data analysis and technology firm whose contracts with the federal government are expanding. And Coinbase, a cryptocurrency firm that donated to the president's inauguration, also sponsored the event. The parade. Oracle, a database company whose co founder is a close friend of Trump, received a shout out on Saturday as a sponsor. Talk about, again, all the ethical lines that were trampled on Saturday with these sponsorships.

[Richard Painter]

Well, the first thing is the real sponsors of that parade with American taxpayers. That thing ran about 45, $50 million, and we paid for it. Those companies kicked in very, very little money to get a promotion, and they were named as sponsors because they were close to the President of the United States. This is use of public office for private gang. We did not allow that in the Bush White House. We would not allow people to auction off White House tours for their preschool to raise money for the preschool, that kind of thing. Not allowed. And here we have corporate sponsors all over the place. The government, the power of the government being used to promote these companies. Well, we are paying for that parade 45, $50 million, while we have food stamps being cut off for poor children around the United States. United States and other services being cut back and employees being fired. That doesn't sound like efficiency to me. And this is the kind of thing that makes American people very angry. But I want to get back to my principal concern about what's going on with crypto. We went through in 1929, my grandfather's generation, when we didn't regulate the securities markets. Depression that lasted for 10, 15 years. We went through 2008 in this country. And how many families have lost their homes and people lost their jobs because of a financial crisis, because of securities based swap agreements on Wall street and the rest of it? Do we want another financial crisis or do we want to regulate this industry? Do we want to let them buy politicians the way they are right now? And four years ago with Sam Bankman Fried, I was going after the Democrats for taking his money and the money raised by his parents and the various people at ftx. But now the crypto industry has gone entirely with the gop. With Donald Trump, you even see Bankman Fried himself doing interviews with Tucker Carlson out of federal penitentiary and his father writing up as in the Washington Post touting Trump's corporate abolishing the corporate income tax in favor of a sovereign wealth fund. The entire crypto crowd has gone over to Donald Trump, Trump and it's an unregulated industry and we're getting now billions, tens of billions. We're soon going to have trillions of dollars being poured into this, maybe by the government. It's not going to end well. Do we want to regulate our economy and regulate our financial system or make the same mistake again we made in 29, we made in 2008 just so the president of the United States can get rich?

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. It's such an important topic. You are two of the best people to talk to about it. We're going to need your help because I think the other dynamic here is as he takes away from people, as they take away health care from 16 million Americans, as is predicted with the big beautiful bill, as they take away jobs and benefits from veterans through cuts to the va, it becomes even more dire and even more, more maddening for the American people. We'll continue to call on both of you. Thank you so much for starting us off today. Ben Rose and Richard Painter. When we come back, an overwhelming majority of Americans say Donald Trump has to follow court orders and abide by the rule of law. But that is not what he's doing as his administration shakes down elite law firms on the flimsiest of legal arguments, arguments even they knew were bogged and wouldn't hold water. Now the American Bar association is fighting back. That's next. Also ahead, the false claims the Trump administration and Elon Musk used to justify tearing into Social Security and gaining access to the personal information of millions of Americans. There is stunning new reporting in the New York Times about how Musk was fixated on Social Security fraud that never existed, all because his team misreads government data and then lied about it. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Have you noticed that lots of law firms have been signing up with Trump? $100 million, another hundred million dollars for damages that they've done.

[Tim Miller]

But they give you 100 million and.

[Joy Reid]

Then they announce that. But we have done nothing wrong.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I agree they've done nothing wrong.

[Joy Reid]

But what the hell, they give me a lot of money considering they've done nothing wrong. Even Donald Trump seems surprised at the level to which top law firms have capitulated to him because sounds like deep down he knows he's on the losing legal side of his own retribution campaign against law firms. And it is why his administration has done nothing in court to challenge a set of blistering defeats rulings rejecting Trump's orders targeting law firms, an unusual legal tactic even for Trump and an administration that is typically quick to gum up the courts and appeal all of its legal losses, no matter how audacious their position. One legal expert's telling the New York Times today that the Trump administration, quote, knew that these were losing positions from the beginning. And we're not actually hoping to win in court, but rather to intimidate firms into settling, as many firms did. Now that they have racked up the four losses in district courts, it is not surprising that they are not appealing because I don't think that they ever thought these were serious positions. Just today, the Trump administration is facing increased backlash for their targeting of law firms in the form of a lawsuit from the American Bar association asking the court to declare Trump's law firm intimidation policy unconstitutional. They write this quote, never before has there been as urgent a need for the ABA to defend its members, their profession, and the rule of law itself. Joining our conversation, New York Times investigative reporter MSNBC contributor Mike Schmidt. Also joining us, former US Attorney, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Lippman's here and former criminal division deputy chief at sdny. MSNBC legal analyst Kristi Greenberg's back. So, Mike, the the executive orders are so bad that Trump and his lawyers aren't even defending their legality. What do the law firms that went down and capitulated have to say for themselves today? And what do their clients think of their lawyering?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, they've said very little. We don't hear anything from them. They basically seem to be keeping their head in the sand and hoping that Trump doesn't come back after them. Because you to remember those firms that made deals with Trump are still in a very precarious position and that's because Trump can take the executive order back out and resign it and put a new date on it. And the firms at that point would be forced to either go back to the table and negotiate with Trump or go to court and do what they didn't want to do and try and fight it like these other firms. The remarkable thing about the law firm's story and about what has happened with Donald Trump and the law firms is that the law firms knew from the beginning, including those that made deals, that this exec. These executive orders were unconstitutional or unethical and were undemocratic. And despite that, they went ahead and made these deals to protect their businesses. I'm sure there's a John Eastman out there who can tell you that there's something legal to this. But of the sort of respected legal minds out there, no one has come out to say, oh, yeah, these executive orders are legal, but that's the amazing thing about them, is that despite that, despite the fact that they are, you know, as the courts have pointed out, unconstitutional, they've had an enormous impact. And firms, fearing simply just being opposed to Trump, have gone ahead and made these deals.

[Joy Reid]

Christy, maybe you have to be a lawyer to understand how a lawyer markets himself, himself as expert in the law if he does something that he knows is illegal and unconstitutional. I'm not a lawyer. I'll stay out of that. But what about the brand? I mean, Mike reported on Friday that seven lawyers from one of the firms that capitulated left to join one of the firms that fought. It seems that the market seems to be rewarding those who stood up against something not just associated with Trump, but something knowingly illegal.

[Claire McCaskill]

Absolutely. It's hard to imagine calling yourself a lawyer and part of your oath and being a lawyer is to uphold the law and then so callously just, you know, choosing greed over integrity and just undermining any kind of principles that one would have. I mean, I look at the lawyers at these firms who have caved to Trump, and they certainly know better. These are the best and brightest at these law firms, and yet they're agreeing to do his bidding. And trust me, he will come to collect. They seem to think that he maybe won't and that they can punt for another day, but there will come a time where he asks them to do his bidding, to engage in pro bono work that may make them uncomfortable, and then they will really have a choice. Are they going to finally stand for their principles, have any kind of integrity, or are they just going to do as they're told, I think it's really about whether or not not you have any core values. These firms have all said these deals don't compromise our core core values and we are still standing up for society's most vulnerable. But, you know, prove it. I don't, I see so many of society's most vulnerable here that are, that are really suffering as a result of the Trump administration's policies. And I don't. These law firms are nowhere to be found. So I really think that, that there will come a time at some time in the near future where Trump's going to come to collect and we will see what these law firms are made of then.

[Joy Reid]

Harry, if you play this out, you know, most companies have to do more than six month or 12 month planning. They have to have a five year plan. I mean, Trump won't be there. What was the five year bet in sacrificing your principles, doing something you knew was unconstitutional? The first judge it looked at that, the first EO was Judge Beryl Howell who said it sent chills down her spine. It was so flagrantly illegal and unconstitutional. What were they thinking in the long term?

[Nicole Wallace]

I think it was more of a five minute plan. It was sign here and maybe he'll go away. But I totally agree with Christie. That's not within his M.O. and these terms, the lawyers themselves don't even know what they say. You have a series of people saying, I'm not sure what's in there. I've read it in the papers. These are the people who have capitulated. So that's not the way lawyers like to work. Right. They want certainty, but they were thinking, sign here and try to quiet the beast. And there's no hope for that. And even Nicole, the firms that have stood tall, I can tell you internally, they're still hedging somewhat. They're still not taking every case case. Because as craven as it seems, and Christie's absolutely right, they've abandoned principles. Their business calculation is God, I know this is completely unconstitutional, can't stand. But he will make trouble for us. And when it comes time to have the big cases that involve the government, clients will shy away. That's what they were thinking of. Of course, there has been this boomerang where some clients have said, I'd like a lawyer who stands up when, when the heat is on and you're not it. And then they've changed firms.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, the irony is Trump doesn't usually appreciate or respect weakness either. I want to press all of you on what that means for these firms, I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be right back. On the other side.

[Nicole Wallace]

Judge after judge after judge that was called to review the lawsuits brought by the law firms that fought not only faulted the administration, not only said that Donald Trump's executive order order was unconstitutional legal, but we're quite critical of the law firms that capitulated. So if you're out there looking for a lawyer and you're looking to hire the best, and these folks are charging you $3,000 an hour, right. Are you going to pay someone that the judges are looking down on?

[Richard Painter]

Are you going to pay someone who's.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, maybe going to have to pull their punches against, against the administration? Are you looking for someone who will sacrifice being tough to save their own skin and make their lives a little easier? Or are you going to go with the folks who stand up and fight hard every single day?

[Joy Reid]

We're back with Mike Schmidt, Harry Lippman and Christy Greenberg. Mike Schmidt, I referenced your reporting From Friday of seven partners at 1 of the firms that struck a deal, leaving for one of the firms that fought. That dynamic that Mark Elias articulated seems to be at play.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, look, if you are a litigator, I, you know, most litigators say they don't want to be at firms that made deals. The firms that made deals were largely firms driven by their corporate practices, their work for corporations on deals and mergers. And they felt that they needed to make the deals in order to ensure that they got government approval, approval for when they went through. The firms that have fought have largely been those that are that are litigators, that are lawyers that go to court and fight. Whether that's in the criminal or civil context, what remains to be seen, and it'll take more months to play out, is what does it mean to those firms that made the deals in terms of their bottom line? Does it really change their revenue? We know that, like more than a handful or at least a handful of lawyers have now left the firm. Paul Weiss, mainly litigators that left there we had these litigators that left Wilkie Far, this other firm that made a deal on Friday. So there has been a lot of fallout, but it's going to take a couple of more months to see what it means to the firm's bottom lines.

[Joy Reid]

There is another number out there, Christy, that I want to put up on the screen. NBC News asked this question in its latest poll obeying federal court rulings. Should the Trump administration obey if a court says their actions are illegal. 81% of all Americans say, yes, yes, you should obey. And it's so peak 2025 that we even asked this question in a poll. But it's because Trump told Kristen Walker, I don't know when she has to be had to uphold the Constitution and obey the laws. The American people still very much believe that even Donald Trump should, quote, obey if a court says his actions are illegal.

[Claire McCaskill]

You're right. We shouldn't even be asking this question. And the number should not be 81%. I mean, losing in court before judges appointed by Republican and Democratic presidents. You have Donald Trump on Memorial Day. His message on truth social media was painting the judges who have ruled against him as USA hating judges. And these are the decisions of monsters who want our country to go to hell. I mean, I would like to think most Americans, it should be bipartisan, don't want their president to speak about judges that way. I mean, but if you can convince the public that these judges who rule against the Trump administration are out of control, that they hate the United States and that they're monsters, then you can go ahead and defy their court orders with, without suffering public outcry. And make no mistake, I mean, that rhetoric is so dangerous. We see the threats against these judges, not only professional retaliation in terms of threatening impeachment, but the threats of violence against them, against their families, that. The need that they, that they feel now for security in this environment. I mean, this is. These are really scary times. And I would just like to think that it's more than 81% of this country that thinks that's not the way that we want judges to be treated and that we wouldn't want any judicial system to be judged by whether or not the rulings are adverse or favorable to the administration, just that they're fair and that these judges are serving justice. So I was disheartened. Even though I'm happy it's a majority, it should be higher. I don't think that is how most people ultimately feel about our judicial system. I'd like to think.

[Joy Reid]

Harry, you get the last word.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay, look, I think it's hardening. 81% of this gun doesn't agree on what direct where the sun comes up in the morning. 50% of Maga said the same thing here. That popular sentiment is, I think, what's really keeping him from going, from steamrolling the courts. As long as that holds, I don't think he can make the big power play that he wants. So, yes, these are terrible times, but That's a really good, important number, I think. And I think if it holds, we will hold.

[Joy Reid]

It's so interesting. We, through this conversation revealed the true idealist among us. It's you, Christy. And I am sort of a political bottom feeder who thought, wow, that's so great, 81% still think you should follow the law. But Christy, I think you're closer, you're closer to true north. Mike Schmidt, Harry Lippman, Kristi Greenberg, thank you so much much for this conversation and for spending time with us. When we come back, extraordinary new reporting about how Elon Musk targeted and took over Social Security, all based on misinformation. One of the reporters with the byline on that new report will be our next guest. Don't go anywhere.

[Mike Schmidt]

40% of the of the calls into Social Security were fraudulent.

[Harry Lippman]

40% of the people who are calling.

[Joy Reid]

In are actually committing fraud.

[Nicole Wallace]

That means the 60% who need their.

[Joy Reid]

Social Security checks are waiting in line.

[Harry Lippman]

We learned 40% of the phone calls that they get are from fraudsters.

[Alexandra Berzon]

40%, that's right.

[Nicole Wallace]

Almost half.

[Mike Schmidt]

Yes. And they steal people's Social Security is what happens.

[Joy Reid]

That was a lie. It was repeated over and over again by the most powerful people in our government everywhere they went. It was used over and over to justify Donald Trump and Elon Musk's chaotic plans to take over the Social Security administration. Today the New York Times reports that it's also an example of how the Trump administration knowingly allowed a critical government agency that millions of Americans depend on to be run through misinformation echoed and amplified publicly by Elon Musk and in this case, enforced internally by Stephen Miller's wife. From that new report, quote, Social Security employees knew the billionaire's claim had no basis in fact. After journalists followed up, staff members began drafting a response, correcting the record. That's when Leland Dudek, plucked from a mid level job only six weeks earlier to run Social Security, got an angry call from the White House. According to several people familiar with the exchange, quote, the number is 40%, insisted Katie Mellon, a top administration aide who was working closely with Musk. According to one of the people Familiar with the April 1 call, President Trump believed Musk. She said, do not contradict the president. Let's bring into our coverage New York Times investigative reporter Alexandra Berzon, who's bylined on that stunning new piece of reporting we read from. I read this story with my jaw on the table. Take me through what you and your colleagues are reporting.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, well, we looked at Social Security. It was really sort of a case study of Elon Musk and doge. And they kind of fixated on this as the agency that they were going to try to kind of fix. They thought there was all kinds of fraud and waste and this could be sort of a shining example of that. But what they ended up doing was taking all kinds of distortions, misinformation, and blowing those up through Elon Musk's Twitter feed. And it caused a lot of havoc inside the agency. We were able to see that really close up with some of our reporting from current and former employees. And they ended up elevating somebody who was a mid level person, a fraud expert actually, but then not actually listening to the expertise of him and others in terms of trying to actually fix an agency. Instead, it was things that they didn't understand, they just assumed was showing something really scandalous instead of actually trying to understand it. And they rejected the expertise. And that caused a lot of, of chaos and problems.

[Joy Reid]

I want to read more from your reporting. You write this. The Times investigation found that Musk became fixated on the program in early February after members of his team misread government spending data. In response, Musk's team mobilized dozens of Social Security employees to affirm their views about fraud and began a project to ensure dead people were properly classified so they weren't mistakenly paid, even though DOGE officials acknowledged in an internal memo that payments were not being made in those cases. I mean, there are still lots of. I mean, I don't want to put a number on it, but probably millions of the President's supporters who believe that lie. What, if anything. Go ahead.

[Claire McCaskill]

No, no, it was an incredible, it got incredible traction, this idea that million. And President Trump even repeated it in his congressional address. And he even said, you know, he went through and read off these stunning numbers of the people who were dead. And he said that it was, that many of them were on Social Security. In fact, the DOGE members who were inside the agency at the time understood that these were not, you know, our reporting indicates like they did not. They understood that these people were not getting Social Security payments. It was because there was problems with, there had been just because of. These were very old people, 150 or so. They were 150 years old. And they were not, they were just, it was just a record keeping issue essentially with them, and it was not actually getting any payments. And they understood that. And yet they embarked on this whole project to ostensibly remove these people, give them different dates of death in order to satisfy this idea that Musk and President Trump and others were perpetuating, that these were actually dead people getting Social Security checks, which was not true.

[Joy Reid]

It is such an important piece of reporting. I'm really grateful to you for doing it and for taking some time to come on and talk to us about it. Alexandra Berzon, thank you.

[Claire McCaskill]

Thank you so much.

[Joy Reid]

Another break for us. We'll be right back. So it's Monday, and that means there is a new episode of the Best People podcast out today and available. Available to listen to. It's my conversation with Doc Rivers. He's the NBA champion coach now at the Milwaukee Bucks. I love this conversation. I love talking to Doc. He's not just a force at the highest levels of one of the most intense sports the world over, but he is a force in the pro democracy movement. He talks candidly about resilience on and off the court. He talks about why he thinks Democrats need to recapture the emotional intensity of too 2008, something he experienced firsthand the night President Barack Obama won.

[Richard Painter]

I'll never forget, there was a black.

[Joy Reid]

Couple in the front row.

[Richard Painter]

I want to say it was the Rockets gang, and that was the night of the election.

[Joy Reid]

We were playing and the black lady was crying.

[Richard Painter]

The game's going on, Nicole. And I see the husband hugging.

[Joy Reid]

I don't know what's happening, happening.

[Richard Painter]

So there's a timeout. And I stopped there right by our bench. They're in the front row. And I stop and I say, sir, do you need some help?

[Joy Reid]

Are you okay? And he looked up.

[Richard Painter]

I'm getting choked up thinking about it. He looks up and said, no, Obama just won.

[Joy Reid]

And I literally the game. Now we're about to go out and I'm choked up.

[Richard Painter]

I needed to take.

[Joy Reid]

I caught a timeout. I caught another timeout. And I told our guys, hey, guys, Obama just won.

[Richard Painter]

And I know there's video of us.

[Joy Reid]

Jumping up and down.

[Richard Painter]

You know, God, we need to connect that again.

[Joy Reid]

You can hear the entire conversation with Doc Rivers by scanning the QR code right there on your screen. It is full of heart and wisdom and a lot of laughter and a few tears and lots of his great insights about our democracy. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts and then you get early access for all of these ad free listening and bonus content. Listen to this conversation, though, and shoot me a note on bluesky or Instagram and let me know what you think. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are so grateful.