← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"It's a MAGA eat MAGA world"
00:41:18
Nicolle Wallace on Republican infighting over the release of the Epstein files, with Trump and his longtime ally Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene turning at odds to one another.
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Hi there everybody. It's four o'clock in New York. It's a MAGA Eat MAGA world. As the vote looms to release the Epstein files, Donald Trump today finding himself in a position he's never really found himself in before, completely out of control of his own political movement and in a knockdown, drag out fight with one of maga's biggest stars. He's now forced to change his tune, at least temporarily, as the push for transparency on the criminal case of his former friend, the dead sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, goes on. Donald Trump posted overnight a very, very, very long message. It read in part, house Republicans should vote to release the Epstein files because we have nothing to hide. The House Oversight Committee can have whatever they are legally entitled to, switching to all caps. I don't care. But of course we know that's not true. Of course he cares. He cares a whole lot. He could have released the files as soon as he was inaugurated on January 20. He could have released the files instead of trying to sweep them all under the rug with some weird unsigned DOJ memo back into July, which was so weird it started the whole suspicious furor from his own coalition in the first place. And if he honestly didn't care, his aides wouldn't have summoned Congresswoman Lauren Boebert last week to the Sit Room in the basement of the West Wing to get her to remove her signature from the discharge petition that triggered the vote to release the Epstein files. That vote now scheduled for tomorrow in the Oval Office a couple of minutes ago, Trump added that quote, sure I would, when he was asked if he would sign a bill to release the Epstein files if it passes the Senate. But on this issue, Trump is following his party, not leading it, which is also a weird place for him. Republican Thomas Massie is predicting a damn break moment when it comes up for a vote while saying that the fight to release the files is far from over.
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I think we could have a deluge of Republicans. There could be a hundred or more. I'm hoping to get a veto proof majority on this legislation when it comes up for a vote. And you know the president's been saying this is a hoax. He's been saying that for months. Well, he's just now decided to investigate a hoax. If it's a hoax. And I have another concern about these investigations that he's announced. If they have ongoing investigations in certain areas, those documents can't be released. So this might be a big smokescreen, these investigations to open a bunch of them to as a last ditch effort to prevent the release of the Epstein files.
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Donald, they're on to you. Massie there is saying in effect that Trump may have lost this battle, but he does have other ways to keep the files from being released. Trump's rage over the Epstein files is also fueling a very ugly public brawl with another signer of the petition, Marjorie Taylor Greene. Trump, quote, withdrew his support with Greene in a post on Friday calling her a traitor and a disgrace, among other nasty things. In the wake of Trump posting that about her, Marjorie Taylor Greene says she's getting hoax pizza deliveries and death threats, something that a lot of Trump critics have faced for many, many years now. But she says she's not backing down from supporting the release of the Epstein files. Watch. The most hurtful thing he said, which is absolutely untrue, is he called me a traitor. And that is, that is extremely wrong. And those are the types of words used that can radicalize people against me and put my life in danger. Let's just hit pause here. It's an astonishing thing to happen to anyone that runs against Donald Trump. There are astonishing comments from someone like her, though, someone with a long history of herself pushing baseless conspiracy theories and supporting people and things that are violent and surrounded by violent rhetoric. In 2021, NPR summed up Marjorie Taylor Greene like this quote, she's denied that a plane hit the Pentagon on September 11th. She supported the idea that the Parkland school shooting was a false flag operation meant to usher in tighter gun laws. She seemed to agree that Hillary Clinton was recorded filleting a child's face. Marjorie Taylor Greene has also liked social media posts that called for executing deep state FBI agents or that advocated remov. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi with, quote, a bullet to the head, end quote. Marjorie Taylor Greene supports QAnon and has said Muslims do not belong in government. So when she was pressed about her history of these things, of inflammatory and offensive comments, Greene said, this.
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I would.
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Like to say humbly, I'm sorry for taking part in the toxic politics. It's very bad for our country and it's been something I've thought about a lot, especially since Charlie Kirk was assassinated, is that wei'm only responsible for myself and my own words and actions. And I am goingi am committed and.
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I've been working on this a lot.
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Lately to put down the knives in politics. I really just want to see people.
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Be kind to one another.
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We'll call them cracks. They could become much bigger than that in the MAGA movement driven by the Epstein files. It's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Our senior White House reporter Vaughn Hilliard is here with me at the table. Political analyst former Senator Claire McCaskill's here. Also joining us, political analyst and host of the Bulwark podcast, Tim Miller's here. Tim, I have to start with you. Mtg, what do you think?
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You know, look, it's hard to know what's going on in her brain, but I got to tell you this. I think it's important a in our society and our political culture that we incentivize people coming back from the brink instead of just incentivize sending people over the edge. And I think that currently a lot of folks, whether it be the social media algorithms or running for Congress, getting small dollar donors or getting attention on TV like the incentives are for politicians and even reg people to say the most crazy thing possible, the most extreme thing possible. And so seeing somebody who went down that path try to back off it and apologize, I think is a good thing. I don't think that we also, we don't need to be snowed by her. I mean, you read through her history, I've heard some people say, complain that all this strange new respect for Marjorie Taylor Greene means people are whitewashing her. I haven't seen a lot of whitewashing of her, actually. I've seen a lot of people playing her comments now and within the context of her past experience. I think that's appropriate. And here's the thing. Regardless of what you think about Marjorie Taylor Greene, the person, and whether this is a genuine Saul the Damascus moment or whether it's something else more personal, whether she's trying to get attention or something, a crack in the MAGA coalition is really only going to come from the Marjorie Taylor Greene's of the world. And so everybody that wants the MAGA coalition to crack, anyone that is fighting against maga, that thinks they're an authoritarian threat should welcome people that were part of maga, you know, even if it's too little, too late. Because right now, I think we've tried the route of trying to bring in people that are of the kind of college educated, suburban, former Republican, moderate McCain types. Me and you fit in that vote. Vote, Nicole. We grabbed as many of those as we could. And Donald Trump still won last time. And so in order to crack his coalition, now, you need to get people that, that were with him the third time after the insurrection. And that's going to be a gnarlier process. Okay, that's going to be a gnarlier process. We're to have issues with all those folks. And so if she wants to say she's sorry, if she wants to speak to this, if she's representative of other people out there who feel betrayed by him, who went with him the third time, that's a good thing.
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She is joined by Thomas Massie, who has really taken the lead on the discharge petition. Let me show you what he had to say on abc.
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The President has gone after you in some deeply personal ways. I mean, attacking you over and over again, even attacking you regarding your wedding, your recent wedding, which, by the way, congratulations. What do you make of all that? And he's obviously supporting your primary opponents. I mean, what kind of retribution are you facing? You know, my wife told me, she said, I told you so. We should have invited Donald Trump. He's mad that he didn't get an invitation. So, you know, we're taking it with a grain of salt. He's being a bully or trying to be a bully, and they're trying to beat me here in Kentucky. But here's what's interesting. The people financing this campaign consists completely of three billionaires, and they're all in the Epstein class. In fact, one of them is named in Epstein's phone book. Not the secret files that the FBI is keeping, but in Epstein's phone book. So it's a small world. Dogs don't bark at parked cars. And we are winning. I'm not tired of winning yet, but we are winning.
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Vaughn Hilliard. It was always remarkable to me when the calls came from inside the house, and Anonymous was the first real prominent one. It ended up being Miles Taylor, who was the chief of staff at Donald Trump's first Department of Homeland Security, who detailed the first real look inside. But it culminated, maybe for Trump, 1.0 in the January 6th select committee's public hearings, where all the witnesses, or 90% of them, were former Trump senior West Wing officials, the vice President's chief of staff, the White House counsel, the former Attorney General Bill Barr, who called Trump's delusions of losing an election, you know, bs. What is the state of denial that the complaints are coming from deep inside the MAGA coalition?
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I think to your point, Nicole, the difficulty here 10 years in, and especially with a lame duck president as this one who cannot run for another term, is where does the power go from here? And I was just talking a few minutes ago with somebody who was close with Marjorie Taylor Greene and with the president and has been a key backer here as part of this sort of, you know, MAGA resurrection since 2021, who suggested to me that Marjorie Taylor Greene was disappointed that she was not more seriously considered for the VP slot the second go around, and then was very frustrated that President Trump told her that he did not believe that she could win statewide for either governor or Senate in the state of Georgia. And that is suddenly where you look at somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who over the last four years was at about pretty much every rally that you could name in whatever state from North Carolina to Arizona to Georgia on over. And that is where the conversations that I'm having now in the words we're hearing from Marjorie Taylor Greene, they actually make me reflect largely on similar conversations I had back in 2022 with Mo Brooks, the congressman from Alabama, who Donald Trump ran out of town. And you folks will recall, he actually spoke at that January 6th event, the Stop the Steal event, and said that they were going to take names and kick ass. But when suddenly Mo Brooks got pushed to, he was the one that started sounding the alarms that Donald Trump, you know, unless you go with him 100% of the time, like he resisted when Donald Trump, he alleged, called him and tried to convince other members of Congress to nullify the election results, you know, years after that. That is where, when you're looking at this dynamic here, I think what Donald Trump has to be worried about is just how far does distrust spread? Because he's sort of this one singular individual who during the pandemic was able to convince a large swath of the American public that he was getting rid of the coronavirus and that it was safe to go outside with a mask. He is somebody who singularly, in two different terms across two different trade wards, has been able to convince a great many people that short term economic consequence is going to be long term worth. It's going to be worth the long term potential fruit that is born out of this fight. And so when you're looking at this moment here, I think that this is where Marjorie Taylor Greene is pushing back because, you know, to a great many of these members of Congress in the Senate and the House, you know, that trust among voters doesn't extend to them like it does for Donald Trump. And so, in a way, Marjorie Taylor Greene is the embodiment of somebody that has sold MAGA the Donald Trump way. And if she were not to carry that out, could very well have a hard time reconciling the fact that there's a great many voters who, you know, whether you look at Charles Herbster or Roy Moore or Herschel Walker, that an issue like this, sex trafficking, sexual harassment, sexual assault, not everybody in American politics here in the year of 2025 is given the same leniency as Donald Trump specifically has been.
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I mean, the political story is a lot simpler than all of this. Donald Trump is less popular than releasing the Epstein files, full stop. Releasing the Epstein vials is one of the most popular things in American politics. The second most popular, I think, was the economy before Trump wrecked it.
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Yeah. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene, listen, this reminds me a little bit when we used to talk about Liz Cheney. You know, I remember some of my friends, you know, saying, Claire how can you be saying kind words about Liz Cheney? I said, well, because she did the right thing at the right time. Yes, we disagreed on many, many things. And obviously I disagree with Marjorie Taylor Greene about just about everything. But she read the room, Nicole. She read the room. She has a political antenna here that is more sensitive than Donald Trump and frankly, than John Barrasso in the United States Senate. She has figured out that she is on the right side of this issue for history, and she's not going anywhere. And I think she also figured it out about the health care costs. You know, she's talking about the things that people are worried about. They want the Epstein files released and they want somebody to pay attention to the fact they can't afford anything. And she's doing both things. So, by the way, we've got to give her some props here because you know, what we've been doing on this show for as long as I can remember, we've been saying, why aren't Republicans seeing the light? Why aren't they saying something?
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Well, at least maybe not my personal opinion is that to Tim's point, Marjorie Taylor Greene calling Trump a menace for inciting Death threats against her and a swatting of her house and pizza hoaxes to her home is a lot more effective than me saying it. Right. My personal opinion, but Marjorie Taylor Greene aligned herself with QAnon in a way that Liz Cheney never did.
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Exactly. Exactly. No, I don't mean to compare the two. I'm saying there were those people that got cranky about me saying that I thought Liz Cheney had done some really honorable things around the J6 investigation because of her history and the way she had voted. Same thing about this woman. You can't compare the two. One was a really serious legislator who had different opinions than I did about a lot of things. Marjorie Taylor Greene has been somebody who, you know, we really kind of made fun of for the first couple of years. She was in the national picture because of the tinfoil hat stuff she talked about.
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Well, and her role in going to the White House after he lost and helping to sow all the seeds of the insurrection, I think is an important part of her history. Tim, I want to come back to you about a fissure that exists in sort of the non Trump MAGA world, and that is right now, Megyn Kelly and Marjorie Taylor Greene are looking at MAGA and both trying to make calculations about where it's heading. Right. For different reasons. Maybe. Maybe Marjorie Taylor Greene for running for president. Maybe Megan trying to read the media moment. They ended up on opposite sides. Right. SNL had a quip about in the Trump character saying, you know, Megyn Kelly said, you know, Jeffrey Epstein wasn't really a pedophile. I mean, it was so bad. It's become part of comedy, which becomes part of culture. So bad. And Marjorie Taylor Greene has made this opposite calculation or decision or revelation. I'm actually open to the fact that it's an epiphany. I mean, all the things, however she got into the boat, at least she's rowing towards something better for democracy. How do you think those two prominent MAGA figures ended up looking at the same thing and reaching totally opposite conclusions?
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It's interesting. I guess this will add one little bit to their potential motivations because we're in a strange world. I feel like I have to say this. Maybe Mega Kelly's also thinking that she might run for president in 2028. I mean, who knows?
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Everything is possible.
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Yeah. Everybody sees. Is now looking at that and be like, well, if he could do it, why couldn't I do it? Look, I think that part of it is the fact. I think Megyn Kelly is looking at this and saying, look, Nobody's ever won a bet in the Republican Party, at least betting against Donald Trump at this point. And that's why I think the Marjorie Taylor Greene case is so, so interesting, right, because everybody that has tried to go against him within the party has lost as far as primaries are concerned, you know, etc. I mean, obviously he lost the 2020 election. A lot of people have, you know, maybe gained something for their soul by going against him, but politically, they've lost. And so I think Megyn Kelly is, is making the safer, the safer bet here. I think what's more kind of, and I guess just one more thing on the Marjorie Taylor Greene side, I think she maybe feels a little bit more free to distance herself from Trump because she's like, built up this credibility with the MAGA base, like, whereas Megan Kelly is like this newcomer. And so they might look, you know, MAGA base might look at her more askance. But to me, the more interesting thing about this discussion is like, it's a sign of just how weak Donald Trump is. Like, I really, we wouldn't have been having this discussion a month ago because everybody was scared of Donald Trump and he seemed so strong and they were making Trump 2028 jokes and, and the richest people in the world were folding in front of him. And now it's just has taken this one off, off your election in Virginia, New Jersey, plus the Epstein issue, plus the failure to message around the shutdown. And now all of a sudden, I do think you're seeing calculations happening. And that's interesting in itself, the fact that MAGA people are themselves starting to say, hey, there's a future here. And that's a real change from a month ago.
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It's just, it's so I totally agree with you and I hadn't figured out how to say it as artfully as you just did, but, you know, we're rotating around a different set of stars now, it seems, or, you know, he may not be. And whether he realizes it or not, it will be an infinite well of reporting for Yvonne. But he may not be the center of the universe for too many more news cycles. Von Hilliard, thank you for being here. Tim Miller, thank you for starting us off. Claire sticks around. When we come back, Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva waited seven weeks to take the oath of office. She called it a strategic move by Republicans to keep the Epstein story quiet. Boy, did that backfire. She'll join us next on what happens now and how she's going to use her spotlight to help the Democratic Party keep its momentum going. Also ahead for us, ahead of tomorrow's vote, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse have come together with an incredibly powerful new ad again calling for the full release for full transparency of the Epstein investigation and files. We'll show you that. And later in the broadcast, a remarkable ruling today from the judge in the Jim Comey case, calling out the Trump Justice Department's, quote, disturbing pattern at an investigative missteps and saying that the former director of the FBI could be looking at a dismissal. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.
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Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive Caucus Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki, Season 2 All episodes available now.
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We are back. I want to bring in Congresswoman Adelita Grijalava of Arizona. Claire is still with us and is going to join in the questions. Congresswoman, congratulations on being sworn in. And, and it is remarkable that the Republicans proved absolutely everything that you said, true and correct. And I wonder how you feel, how you've carried this role of being that 218th vote on the discharge petition for releasing the Epstein files.
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Yeah, you know, it's been an interesting position to be in because the Epstein files never came up during the campaign except for the very last debate with my general election opponent and that was it. And then on Election Day, somebody said they're not going to swear you in because of those files. And I thought, oh, no way. And here we are 50 days, literally. And, you know, having had the opportunity to meet with some of the survivors and understanding how long they have been waiting for to get this close and that there's still a long road ahead in order to be able to finally see justice, it's so important. And I'm sorry that they had to wait so long, but I'm glad that my signature could add to at least this next step in transparency.
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I mean, the way you explain that, it almost encapsulates this political moment, right? You run a campaign where the cost of living and other issues are what you're campaigning for, your constituents on and about. And you have this almost wake up call that for the Republicans, politics trumps everything. How has that sort of reframed what you think of the Republican led Congress?
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You know, I didn't really have a strong opinion of Speaker Johnson coming in. I knew that politically we were not going to be aligned. But I'd heard a lot about different people. And what it was very telling to me is how easily people lie. Like, that's it just has been so fascinating to be this end and to listen to some of the rhetoric that is being thrown about and I know the truth because I'm here and to understand that, like, if you can that easily lie about this stuff, which in the grand scheme of things is inconsequential, whether, you know, I can help a constituent in Arizona CD7 or not, like, if you can lie about that that easily and so convincingly, then it's difficult to believe anything else.
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Congresswoman, congratulations. I want to ask, I want to talk a little politics with you. I was watching with interest to see how the Hispanic voters in New Jersey shifted back to the Republican Party in the elections just recently. Talk to us about what's going on in Arizona. You are the essence of a battleground state in so many ways. It's not like it's a little bit like it used to be in Missouri. Close elections are the norm in statewide elections. What's going on there with the politics locally as it relates to the Hispanic voters and Donald Trump?
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Well, I can tell you specifically in Arizona CD7, when you see your friends, your family, business owners that, you know, being ripped and kidnapped off the street by masked people, it changes your perspective quite a bit because I believe that so many people fell into this trap of, well, Trump is talking about the price of eggs and so he's going to help us Trump is talking about, you know, all these people that are taking adv of a system. He's going to help us. And, you know, all these people that shouldn't be here, they're all going to go, but only the criminals, not everyone else. And literally everything that Trump has promised, he's gone back and lied. He's lied about. And everyone can see how our economy is suffering under this administration and how they're cruel. Like, this is just an exercise in cruelty. Like, how much could we make people suffer? And then let's add to that, and every time someone comes out with some new initiative, I mean, the fact that now you can literally look at someone like me and say, I don't think she's here legally, I'm going to go ahead and pull her over and see what happens. That's literally what's happening throughout our district in Arizona. And I know that it's happening across the nation. And people are having a lot of buyers remorse. They bought into this idea that Trump was going to help, and now all he's done is really hurt everybody that isn't like him. If you're not a billionaire and you're not a Caucasian white male who believes, you know, in whatever he says, then you're part of the other and he doesn't care about the other.
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We just had a conversation in the previous block about this moment for him politically. And as you watch Marjorie Taylor Greene break with him, you watch Congressman Massie break with him and push for the release of the Epstein files, something Donald Trump doesn't want, what do you see as an opportunity for bipartisanship?
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Well, I think that this case highlights the fact that there is a possibility to do that and that if we can actually talk about real issues and not the politics of it, like, let's not go with worst case scenarios either way. Can we talk about how we're going to help the average working family? Because that's the vast majority of us. How are we going to positively impact the opportunity for people to live their American dream, to buy a home, to go send their kids to college, to have an opportunity for those children to come back to their communities and improve the quality of life there? A lot of those pathways don't exist right now. I think about my daughter who's a freshman in college. And in three years from now, when she graduates, is she going to be able to be gainfully employed enough to be able to put down on a little tiny house? Those opportunities don't exist anymore. And we have to make sure that we build that in so that everybody can reach their own American dream, whatever it is.
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Congresswoman, it's been great following your. I was one of those people who I agreed with you. I said there's no way they'd be that transparent and not swear her in. And Johnson had sworn in two Republicans. So I said, oh, even he won't be able to be that much of a hypocrite. So they surprised me on that front as well. Again, congratulations. Thank you for joining us. I hope our conversations are to be continued. Thank you for joining us today.
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G
Thank you so much.
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It was such a pleasure. After the break for us, we'll show you a brand new ad from the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse. They're calling for more lawmakers to join the bipartisan effort for the vote expected to happen tomorrow.
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Tomorrow.
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Morning on Capitol Hill. A bipartisan Delegation of members of Congress will host the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse. The press conference is meant to focus on and discuss the next steps of the effort for transparent. Oh, it's for the Epstein Files Transparency Act. That's the legislation. All House members will be forced to put their names on that vote. Also expected tomorrow. And now, after a months long pressure campaign from the Trump White House to keep the files under wrap, the victims have launched their own campaign aimed at convincing lawmakers from both political parties to make the right decision. Take a look at that. I suffered so much pain. So much pain. So much pain. I suffered so much pain. I was 14 years old. I was 16 years old.
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16, 17.
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14 years old.
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This is me.
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This was me.
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This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein. This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein. There are about a thousand of us. It's time to bring the secrets out of the shadows. It's time to shine a light into the darkness.
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Wow.
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C
I'm going to bring into our coverage Miami Herald investigative reporter who deserves a lot of the credit for keeping the story, the story of the victims alive, Julie Brown. She's followed the Epstein cases and the victims for years. Claire's still here. Julie, I just have to ask you, did you think you'd see this moment where the victims seem to be driving the political conversation maybe for the first time?
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D
You know, they did come forward pretty powerfully in the beginning when I wrote my series back in 2018, and there was a movement briefly in Congress to get to the bottom of this case and to find out who else was responsible for these crimes. But then, as with anything in washing, it became less and less of the, you know, the shiny object that they were looking at. And it got quiet again. So I hope that this time we don't forget about these women, we don't forget about this crime. Because if we do not get to the bottom of this, we're doomed to repeat these same kinds of crimes again against children.
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C
What are you looking for? If the files are released, what is in there? What unanswered questions are in there?
- [34:20]
D
Well, for me, the most unanswered questions are whether the DOJ did its job, whether FBI pursued everything that they should have pursued. Because of course, back in 2008, when this case kind of got buried and Epstein got away with it, it was largely because they did not continue to pursue this crime the way that they should have. And so my hope is that since, you know, it's been a very long time, decades, that this case has been out in the public now. And one would think or hope that the DOJ and FBI really listened to these victims over the years, because more the story really is that more and more of these survivors came forward and told their stories to the FBI. So those stories are in these files. So we'll have to see whether these women were listened to, whether their cases were even investigated.
- [35:17]
C
So the number is 1,000, 1,000 girls that were trafficked. The ages are as young as 14 and younger. And Kash Patel is a source for saying that there are hours and hours and hours of videotape. He said that on Joe Rogan's podcast. What, in your view are the possible explanations for. Kash Patel is the director of the FBI saying one thing on Joe Rogan's podcast and something else as the current director of the FBI?
- [35:51]
D
Well, when he was probably in front of Joe Rogan, he didn't really know anything about what was in the files. There were a lot of things that people in Magellan were talking about that I would hear about. I would say, what are they talking about? You know, I do believe that they have to have some kind of digital or video evidence, because they did, of course, sees a lot of Epstein's computers and other kinds of digital equipment from his home in New York at the time that he was arrested. So I would hope that they went through all that information and they should have all his emails, they should have a lot of this information. But the question again is, did the FBI do anything with it? Maybe there were reasons they couldn't. Maybe the files were corrupted. I don't know the answers to those. But we hope that these files or these records that they're going to release will hopefully give us some answers.
- [36:50]
C
The victims, even some that I've interviewed, have talked about Ghislaine Maxwell's role not just in grooming them and pulling them into the trafficking operation, but in the sexual abuse itself. Taking their clothes off and participating in the sexual abuse of the girls. What do you think about one, Ty Blanche going down and interviewing her and two, the treatment she's getting at a minimum security prison. And three, all the talk about a possible commutation or pardon.
- [37:22]
D
I hope that there are some people that are asking these hard questions about why Ghislaine Maxwell was just, you know, mysteriously taken to a new prison much one where she's treated and given a lot more good amenities there. And I just think that everybody should be asking the question of how and why did that happen? The fact that the Bureau of Prisons isn't answering Any of these questions, I think, is very telling. One has to wonder whether she has some information about some important people that she's threatened to expose, if, in fact, they do not give her better treatment and or even a pardon.
- [38:07]
C
It's incredible. No one's going anywhere. We'll all be back with more on what we expect to happen tomorrow on Capitol Hill. Stay with us. We're back with two of our favorite guests, Julie and Claire. So, Claire, tell me, just walk me through what happened. We're covering this. Bipartisan support in the House. The Senate seems like a bigger question mark, but just take me through what happens to the legislation.
- [38:32]
F
Well, it's going to pass the House. The question is, is how big is the margin? And that's going to be a big tell. If, in fact, Trump said what he did, that means he knows the margin is not going to be close. I mean, they gave up any chance of winning this fight, and now he's pretending like they're all voting the way he wants them to vote. So I think that Massie's right. I think it'll be a big margin. If it is, then that goes to the Senate, and then Thune has a big problem because they have already forced. The Democrats have already forced them to vote on this one. And every Republican senator voted against opening the Epstein files, except for two. So all of them. And now Trump's thrown them under the bus because they're now on record as having voted no. And that's a real political liability to those folks.
- [39:19]
C
Yeah.
- [39:20]
F
So I think there's a chance they're going to want to get. Well, if it's a big margin in the House, it's not going to shock me that there are 10 to 15 to 20 Republican senators that say, yeah, well, I'm going to vote to do this because Trump said we should. And then Trump will sign into law, and then I'm guessing that he says it's an open investigation and they can't release the file because you notice that wording in his little missive he put out was whatever they're legally entitled to. So that's his cushion word that, you know, Pam Bondi is going to say, well, you're not legally entitled to him because it's an open investigation.
- [39:57]
C
So he'll just have an open investigation into the Democrats the whole time he's president to keep the files from being released.
- [40:03]
F
I'm guessing that. I hope I'm wrong. I've been wrong at least four or five times.
- [40:08]
C
As a joke, I was gonna say, I Can't. I don't think that's true. What do you think keeps the evidence from ending up in the hands of state prosecutors in Florida or New York?
- [40:20]
F
I don't understand that. And, Julie, maybe you can help me with this. I have never understood. Most people don't realize that the federal government does not have original jurisdiction on sex crimes. Original jurisdiction for sex crimes is with state and local prosecutors. The only time the feds get involved in a sex crime is when it goes across state lines. Certainly this did. So they had a right to get into it. But primary jurisdiction. 99% of the rape and sexual assault cases in this country are tried by state prosecutors. Why didn't the state prosecutors do anything in Florida?
- [40:54]
D
Well, because the state prosecutor changed his mind. He decided this was a political football, took it to a state grand jury, and we have since seen the testimony from that grand jury, and they basically sabotage their own case so that he would have. Epstein would have walked, essentially. He wouldn't have gotten any jail time if the state prosecutor's case had stood. But what happened was the local police department, the Palm Beach Police Department saw what was happening and said, wait a minute. You can't let this guy walk. So they went to the Feds, and then they pointed out that there were some girls who, by the way, wasn't just crossing state lines that they used as jurisdiction at the time. The Feds were prosecuting a lot of child pornography, child exploitation cases involving culprits that use their computers at the time. That's a federal crime. So they used that also as jurisdiction for the feds to take over the case. A lot of people don't remember that, that. That was really one of the impetuses for the Feds to take over. And I think, you know, over the years, of course, the lawyers representing these victims went time and time again to the feds saying, look, we have more information. This shows that he was doing this. This shows other people were involved. And the feds just kept turning it away and turning it away until, you know, I presented my story, and you could see how all the pieces fit together. And at that point, that's when New York reopened the case or opened a new case, and they then looked at cases elsewhere besides Florida. So I suppose in New York, they might be able to build a local case, a state case in it. I don't know how that works since the feds had already taken up this case against Maxwell and Epstein.
- [43:01]
C
Julie Brown, we'll continue to call on you. We find ourselves sort of quoting back big chunks of your reporting and all of our day to day efforts to stay on top of this story and this reporting. So it's great to get to talk to you. Thank you for joining us today. Clara, thank you for being here at the table for our first day in our new digs. Yes, I like it.
- [43:21]
F
Yeah, it's fun. It's always fun. If I'm at table with you, kid.
- [43:24]
C
It's always fun. I feel like you and I have been everywhere and this is a pretty good place to be together. Thank you for being with me. Thank you. After the break. For us, a rudderless and leaderless fema. What could go wrong? Changes to that agency coming with hurricane season still very much underway? We'll tell you about it next. Some news today out of an agency Donald Trump has publicly claimed he could see being eliminated. The acting administrator of FEMA is out resigning just six months into the job and still in the midst of hurricane season. David Richardson had no background in emergency management and made headlines for on his very first day on the job, reportedly telling staff that he would, quote, run right over anyone who got in his way. There was significant turmoil at FEMA during his tenure, including Washington Post reporting on his response to the deadly Texas floods that ultimately killed 130 people. They report he was, quote, unreachable during the critical early hours on a weekend trip with his two sons that did not jump into the ongoing disaster response until Sunday evening, nearly two days after. We'll stay on top of that reporting. Up next for us, there is breaking news into the case against former FBI Director Jim Comey, a judge ordering the release of all the grand jury material and what he's signaling about the future of the entire case. The next hour at deadline, White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [44:57]
A
Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now.