Chris Oleary (5:36)

Well, I think Kim Delaney's reporting is unfortunately spot on. People are pissed and I think there's going to be second order effects to this throughout the FBI. Brian Driscoll, incredibly well regarded throughout the FBI. Trusted, reliable, respected, an agent who was a great Investigator, great operational experience, and also a proven leader. I mean, I led with him on the New York Joint Terrorism Task Force, served alongside of him. Then he went on to take over the hostage rescue team as well. And this is a really just well regarded individual, Steve Jensen as well. Steve, I know exceptionally well too, dedicated, cosmic professional. And I can say with absolute certainty there's not a partisan bone in either one of their bodies. And both of them conducted themselves without bias in everything that they did. And related to Steve Jensen and Walter dino, agents don't get to pick where they go. Agents are assigned to different offices, different cases, and they work those cases to the best of their ability without a bias. And the facts lead them to wherever they may lead. And to persecute people because they did their job is really just shocking. And so what's happening now is anybody who can leave the FBI because they're eligible for retirement is leaving. People who can't quite yet are counting the days. And now you also have mid career professionals who are wondering, can they get to the end? Do they have a few more years? Do they have 10 more years? And then you think about the next generation of people who would like to come in. Maybe they'll go somewhere else. And that's really problematic because the country needs a Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Nicole Wallace (7:37)

I mean, Chris, explain this thing you just said. I heard it yesterday in the statement from the union representing agents that agents don't care, get to choose the cases they work on. Would someone like Cash Patel or Dan Bongino know that yet? They're just six months into their leadership positions.

Chris Oleary (7:53)

Well, they should know that. And Cash Patel should certainly know that. I worked with Cash 10 years ago when he was a line attorney at DOJ. He understood at least counterterrorism and national security investigations. But he wouldn't know, you know, the ins and outs of the FBI. Maybe just that limited slice of what he was exposed to. But that's why you keep people like Brian Driscoll, you keep people like Steve Jensen, people who have decades of experience in investigations, operations, leadership, all things that both Director Kesh Patel and Deputy Director Bongino lack. Really the only investigative and operational experience between the two of them is Deputy Director Bongino and his protective security is dignitary protection. So they are both patently unqualified to be in the positions that they're in. And then certainly the fact that they didn't push back and stand up for their agents to prevent their firing. Even though Keshe Patel insisted to Congress that he wouldn't allow a campaign of retribution is really just they're not qualified for their jobs.

Nicole Wallace (9:01)

But they would know by now that agents don't pick their cases. I guess I'm drilling down on this because there's reporting that John Cornyn has secured the FBI's agreement, I guess in theory, to go out and aid in the return of Democratic lawmakers. And I just, I think it's really important for folks outside the FBI to understand how it works for agents inside the FBI. Do you get to pick which cases you work on? If you're assigned to one, you do not.

Chris Oleary (9:27)

You're assigned to them. But you highlighting the fact that FBI agents may now be hunting down elected officials in the United States who are not currently being investigated for a federal crime. And by the way, just not to dig too deep, but if an FBI agent was investigating a potentially corrupt official, that's a, what's called a sensitive investigative matter and is handled with kid gloves and leadership from the DOJ is brought into it. It's a very sensitive matter that the FBI handles this with, to just determine without any authorization, really any legal authorization for the FBI to utilize its investigative tools, its surveillance tools, or perhaps apprehend state lawmakers and bring them back to Texas. That should scare all Americans. It's foundationally anti American.

Nicole Wallace (10:28)

And just one last question. What happens to rank and file FBI agents who work for Cash Patel and Dan Bongino if, as you just said, all Americans are scared of the FBI?

Andrew Weissman (10:40)

Yeah.

Chris Oleary (10:40)

So I think what we're seeing in front of us is this campaign of intimidation within the FBI. And you know, intimidation and chaos are not leadership traits. That's not how you should be trying to change an organization. If they thought there were flaws in the FBI, and you know, there were, the FBI is certainly not perfect. And the FBI made mistakes prior to the Trump administration, during the Trump administration. And if there were agents or professionals that should have been disciplined, that should happen. But to purge the FBI for political reasons when agents were only doing their job. And I will tell you, most agents do it for a career because it's a vocation. They believe in the cause of protecting Americans, its citizens, and our democratic republic. And we are destroying an institution that is critically needed.

Nicole Wallace (11:38)

So, Andrew Weissman, we've had these conversations for more years, which is why I wanted to spend some time with Chris to start off. But I think that one of the important tests for us as a citizenry is to understand what it means for us as citizens to destroy the FBI from within. Kash Patel and Dan Bongino maybe knew, but Kash Patel and Dan Bongino know that the three agents they fired didn't make choices about the cases they pursued, the cases they were involved in, or the cases they successfully investigated and the role they played in successful prosecutions. I think every January 6th insurrectionist who was investigated and charged was convicted or pled guilty. That is not about a judgment. That is not about a political bias. That's about investigating a crime that happened on live tv. I mean, this is in a lot of ways the most opaque piece of Donald Trump's destruction of the rule of law, but perhaps the one with the most tentacles into the daily lives of all Americans.

Andrew Weissman (12:48)

So I couldn't agree more with what you and Chris are saying. It is important to stress there's sort of two issues here. One is agents, like lawyers at the Department of Justice do not get to choose the cases they're on. They get assigned, and that's what they do. And it is an act of insubordination. If you were to say, well, I'm just not doing that, but that's sort of a secondary issue, that would be a perfectly good and sufficient defense if what they were being fired for was working on a case that was problematic. But here, to your point, not only did they have no choice, but the case they were working on. If you were thinking about, especially Agent Jenkins, he was working on and putting together and spearheading the January 6th prosecutions. Those are righteous cases. And so you really have to ask yourself, why? Why is this happening? Is it a matter of just retribution by Donald Trump, in which case you have sort of personal retribution over the safety of the country and the expertise and all of the things that Chris so eloquently talked about. Or is it that you want to make sure there are not people at the FBI and frankly, throughout government who take their oath of office seriously? And more important than doing something that is neither factually based nor legally justified? And it could unfortunately be a combination of those. And either way, we're in a dire situation where the country is less safe because of really not just poor decision making, but improper decision making, where you are removing people without cause, career people, for no good reason to justify that result.

Nicole Wallace (14:52)

Let me play you something. Andrew Weissman, that Michael Feinberg, who, after he was run out of the FBI for his friendship with Pete Strzok, he wrote about it and has spoken out on my show. And I think this is from Jen Psaki's program. Let me play this.

Harry Dunn (15:09)

Under Patel and Bongino, senior FBI leadership is willing to.

Andrew Weissman (15:14)

Jettison experience and subject matter expertise in.

Harry Dunn (15:18)

The name of ideological purity or political uniformity.

Andrew Weissman (15:25)

There is a real sense of abandonment.

Harry Dunn (15:27)

And betrayal among the line workforce at.

Nicole Wallace (15:32)

So many of the senior executives who've.

Harry Dunn (15:34)

Been forced out and have not spoken up about what happened to them.

Nicole Wallace (15:40)

My experience in 9 years of covering the Trump story and its impact on selfless folks like both of you who go into these agencies because they believe in something bigger than themselves, is it for everyone that speaks out? There aren't numbers of others. There are dozens, sometimes hundreds of others. It has held true for the military, for the intelligence community, for the Department of Justice and for the FBI. And I wonder, Andrew Weissman, if you can just tell me what it's like for the folks that are still there. And I want to make one more point. Of all the people that I've had the chance to talk to, either on or off camera about leaving, I even met one that was a Clinton, Biden or Harris supporter, or if they were, they kept it deep undercover. So these are not partisan figures being purged. These are competent figures being purged. And I wonder if you can tell me what it's like for the people left behind to have the most competent leaders of the bureau purged.

Andrew Weissman (16:46)

So on the apolitical front, it's worth noting something Chris said. The people who go into the FBI, this is not a temporary job. That's true for the agents, the analysts, the lawyers, the staff who are there. This is their career. When I remember when I first got to the FBI as the general counsel and I was asking at various meetings, like how long people had been there, and you got the answer 15 years, 20 years, 25 years, 30 years? What does that mean? Those are people who are career people who have served under multiple administrations, Republican and Democrat. They do not care. They are there to do a job. They develop expertise. They develop historical information and background. They can do something which is when some new issue comes up, they can immediately tell you how it is different than or been handled before. And so that you're not starting from scratch. And that is those are the kinds of people you want there. That is what makes you better. That is what makes an organization better. For the people who are career people, this culture of fear and intimidation is one where you're going to have people really thinking about one. Do they even want to be at the FBI? Do they want to even go into the FBI if they know that they can't really, really count on having a career there? If they make a sort of, quote, false move, which is just on a case that the director later thinks is one that shouldn't have been brought, even though they had no choice in the matter. And so it really is going to take enormous fortitude on the part of agents. And just to be clear, we saw a lot of that when Emil Beauc was seeking to have a list of thousands of agents put together and the acting Director Driscoll was pushing back, saying that there's no reason for them to have their names listed for adverse personnel action. And, you know, there are a lot of agents and special agents in charge around the country who were part of that effort to push back and to apply hold the rule of law at our institutions. But the bottom line here is we are less safe because of this. This is, this is a law enforcement and intelligence operation that is now far less effective because you're getting rid of these people for no good reason.

Nicole Wallace (19:30)

Yeah. And I mean, to your point about worried about making a, a wrong move, I don't even know how in the moment you consider it a wrong move to investigate crimes that left Democratic and Republican elected officials running for their lives. I mean, it's not like the Republicans sat out there and high five the insurrectionists. I think Josh Hawley ran the fastest and the farthest on that day. So I'm not sure how you, you function and how you even identify a wrong move four years before the retribution that you're supposed to see coming. It's insanity. Andrew Weissman and Chris o', Leary, it's our good fortune to get to talk to you about all of this. Thank you very much. When we come back, only the best people. The latest hire to the senior ranks of the Justice Department is a violent January 6th rioter calling on the mob to attack the police. New video just released giving us the clearest picture yet of the kind of people this White House is putting in charge of law enforcement. Former Capitol Police officer Harry Dunn is our next guest. Plus, the Democrats plan to take their fight against a Republican Party doing whatever it takes to hold on to a congressional majority could soon kick into high gear as the Texas redistricting power grab could move to other states as well. We'll have much more on that later in the show. New developments in the Jeffrey Epstein case on just what could be unsealed in those grand jury exhibits. And for learning more about what Ghislaine Maxwell, a convicted sex offender, won't be allowed to do at her cushy new prison camp. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break, don't go anywhere. Pandora makes it easy for you to find your favorite music.

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Nicole Wallace (22:34)

Another alarming and dangerous consequence of Donald Trump's purge of experienced, competent, dedicated, nonpartisan career law enforcement pros is the kind of people who are replacing them. People like Jared Wise, the former FBI agent turned January 6th insurrectionist and defendant whose case was dismissed by Trump's day one pardon spree. We learned in the New York Times that Wise has was since hired by Trump's DOJ to focus on the revenge campaign. He sent aid to Ed Martin in his weaponization campaign to punish those who had worked in DOJ to hold him and other Capitol rioters accountable. NPR has now obtained police body cam footage of Wise on January 6 calling police officers Nazis and urging rioters to, quote, kill them. Watch for yourself.

Harry Dunn (23:27)

You guys are disgusting. I'm former law enforcement. You're disgusting. You are the Nazi. You are the Gestapo.

Pandora Voiceover (23:34)

You can't see it because you're chasing your pension, right?

Harry Dunn (23:36)

Your pension, your retirement, Right? That's what ruins your life. Your retirement.

Nicole Wallace (23:40)

The sad thing is they're not even.

John Heilman (23:41)

Going to get their pension because it's.

Pandora Voiceover (23:42)

Going to be your.

Nicole Wallace (23:56)

So that guy, that guy replaces the good guys we were just talking about. Joining our coverage is retired Capitol Police officer Harry Dunn. Harry Dunn, how are you, my friend?

Pandora Voiceover (24:08)

Hey, Nicole. It's been a while. How are you?

Nicole Wallace (24:11)

I am trying to hold people like you close and make peace with the fact that maybe bearing witness is all we can do right now. And so that's how I am. How are you?

Pandora Voiceover (24:27)

I'm all right. You know, I've. Believe it or not, it'd be five years this upcoming January since, you know, one of the darkest days in our American history. And I still find myself out here talking about it and, you know, not moving on from it, not forgetting about it, because we have stuff like this that just continues to happen. These career public servants that are being fired, career criminals that are being hired within the Department of Justice. And it just makes no sense. What's up is down. What's down is up. And however, however, and I know we've talked about this before, giving you a little bit of hope and just staying out there. I am not g up. I'm not going away. I'm not shutting up about it, because they damn sure aren't. So I'm gonna make sure that I'm out there and just trying to make my voice as louder as possible and making sure that everybody understands that. When Kamala Harris was running and the Democrats were talking about this is the end of our democracy as we know it if we elect Donald Trump, it wasn't exaggeration. It wasn't, as Joe Biden's favorite word, hyperbole. It is what we are seeing being enacted in real time right now. So we have to stay on the up. And we see news like this as discouraging as it is, we always need to find ways to continue to show up.

Nicole Wallace (25:51)

You know, one of the things that's clear is how much progress Donald Trump made in the politics of projection. So you were a law enforcement official Michael Fanone voted for. Trump was in law enforcement. Donald Trump is not for the blue. He's not for law enforcement. He's not for justice. He's not against crime. He's a convicted felon himself. And he's put criminals inside the FBI like Mr. Wise. I mean, what is your sort of person to person conversation with folks who ask you about this moment for law enforcement?

Pandora Voiceover (26:37)

Well, law enforcement, you know, I believe that it needs to exist. And when I was running for Congress, one of the biggest things that I've said is we need to put police officers in the best position for them to be successful. Police officers complained a lot about being dragged into political discussions, but just as fast as they complained about being dragged into being made political pawns, they would offer political endorsements. So you can't have it both ways. If you're going to endorse Donald Trump, and I'm speaking directly to the fop, endorse Donald Trump in the last three elections, that's problematic and you deserve the backlash that you're going to get. However, I don't believe that law enforcement right now is being put in the best position for them to be successful. And we can look at what's happening in Washington, D.C. as Donald Trump is seeking to put out law enforcement. The federal officers just have them out there on the street when crime is actually down. In Washington, D.C. the statistics show that violent crime is down from this point last year, down, I think about a quarter, 25, 26%. Yeah, brag on that, Donald Trump. Brag on that. Brag on that. But this, what he's doing right now is just a power grab. It's just a continuation of his administrative. I don't even know if it's administration anymore. We are in regime territory, and that's what Donald Trump is doing. Donald Trump, he appoints people that are, that take an oath and that are faithful not to the Constitution, but are faithful and loyal to him. And that's all that matters right now. And that's the problem that we're facing right now. A lot of us saw it coming. And I'm not an I told you so person. There are plenty of people out there that are I told you so's, but I'm just, how can we fix this crap that we got going on? Now?

Nicole Wallace (28:24)

When you look at what Trump is doing to the FBI, where every agent who was assigned to January 6th cases, and we're on the outside of the FBI, but we understand that agents don't get to pick their cases. Surely by now, Mr. Patel and Mr. Bongino understand that. Where does your head go? Having been involved and having sat through a lot of the trials for the insurrectionists.

Pandora Voiceover (28:48)

Well, what's really frustrating with these people within the FBI being let go is they're nonpartisan people. They are just career people that move up the ranks and just go through. They don't. You said it earlier in the show. They're not out there offering endorsements. They're not doing press conferences every day with the sitting president, Joe Biden. Stayed far away from the FBI. Barack Obama, the same thing, but Donald Trump just can't. He wants to control. Donald Trump just wants to control it. And it's really. It just shows what's eroding away at this institution, the FBI, which has been reveled as the premier law enforcement agency, almost being reduced to a shell of his former self. Because, like you said, you are putting incompetent people in there, incapable people in there, people with no experience, criminals inside the Department of Justice, conspiracy theorists versus actual people who were educated, who were smart, who were experienced and competent above all. And it puts our country and our national security at risk. When you have people out there that don't know what they're doing and are literally running the. The organization to stomp out conspiracy theories, it's insane and it's scary.

Nicole Wallace (30:06)

You have always been so open about what not just the January 6th attacks did to you, physically and mentally, but what the politics that surrounded the country's response have done. And I wonder, six months in, how are you? How are you doing?

Pandora Voiceover (30:24)

Well, thank you for always bringing it back to that and, you know, making it humanized, because we lose track of that a lot. So I'm grateful that you always ask that. Listen, you know, myself, Michael Fanon and Aquilino Ganeda, Danny Hodges, the men and women of the Capitol, everybody fought so hard on that day, and a lot of us fought even harder to stop Donald Trump on November 5th. And on November 5th, a lot of people in this country felt like it was a gut punch. I had higher hopes in America. I believed that we were better than electing the 34 time. The spiel that you do every time you talk about Donald Trump. There's too many adjectives that we can use to describe him, but we showed who we were in that moment. What keeps me going right now is being able to travel across the country and around the world. In fact, I had the opportunity to go to Ukraine back in May. And just being out there, and if you've never heard an air raid siren in real life, I mean, the TV doesn't do it justice. And the first time I heard it, you know, so scared and nervous and anxious, but the people around in Ukraine just kept walking around. So I would always, I would ask the people, are y' all just used to it? Is it just. Oh, you hear it, but you don't hear it? They said no. They pay attention to every single one. They hear it, they pay attention to it. But they are being a resilient group of people. And not giving up or not refusing to let Putin's war deter their way of life. I mean, people are walking around, kids with book bags on. The restaurants were full. People, the streets are full. And it wasn't just a, it was an act of defiance and resilience to not be have your future and your life being laid out by what this authoritarian ruler in Russia is attempting to do. And I am so encouraged every time I get to go around the country and I see people at these no kings marches. I mean, even just driving down the street the other day, just randomly, there was a person standing out on the street saying no kings. So I think it's very important that people are not giving up. People aren't quitting. We're injured, but we're not defeated.

Nicole Wallace (32:47)

Yeah. And we're stronger together. I think what they would like to do is to have us, you know, curl up on our sofas and watch Netflix. But to your point, when we're out there, you remind me. I think it's, I'm going to botch this. But bravery is not being afraid, courageous being afraid and doing it anyway. And I think that your example, the Ukrainian people's example is that kind of courage that we all need right now. Harry Dunn, I love talking to you. We are always here. Please come back more often. Thank you for being here today. I needed that.

Pandora Voiceover (33:20)

Thank you, my friend. Talk to you soon.

Nicole Wallace (33:22)

Thank you. Just ahead for us, Democrats in Texas are pushing the nation to fight, to fight against the Republican Party hell bent on doing whatever to end to retain control of Congress. The very latest on where that stands is next. We are in the process as we speak right now of searching for preparing.

Pandora Voiceover (33:47)

To arrest Democrats who may be in.

Nicole Wallace (33:50)

Texas, may be elsewhere.

Harry Dunn (33:52)

But I'll tell you this also, Democrats.

John Heilman (33:54)

Act like they're not going to come.

Nicole Wallace (33:55)

Back as long as this is an issue.

Pandora Voiceover (33:58)

That means they're not going to come back until like 2027 or 2028 because.

Harry Dunn (34:02)

I'm going to call special session after.

Nicole Wallace (34:04)

Special session after special session with these.

Pandora Voiceover (34:06)

Same agenda items on there. Do you think the FBI has a legitimate role in ending this state political standoff? I'm not going to disclose who all.

Nicole Wallace (34:14)

May or may not be involved.

Harry Dunn (34:15)

All I can say is we're going.

Nicole Wallace (34:16)

To use every tool that we can to make sure that these runaway Democrats.

John Heilman (34:21)

Are going to be held accountable.

Nicole Wallace (34:25)

Like the little engine that could. We're going to rig elections this year or next year or the year after, however long it takes. NBC News pressing Texas Governor Greg Abbott on the extraordinary measures he's taking to hunt down Democratic lawmakers in his state. They fled the state to prevent extreme gerrymandering in Donald Trump's remade congressional maps ahead of the midterms. They're trying to stop that from being implemented to prevent voters in Texas from being disenfranchised. This afternoon, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton filed a lawsuit asking the courts to declare the seats of legislators who fled vacant after they did not return to the statehouse by the time Texas Republicans attempted to reconvene their special session earlier today. AG Paxton last night filed an emergency petition to have the civil warrants for the arrests of the Democratic legislators enforceable. In Illinois, where many of the Texas lawmakers have been staying. Republicans have promised to extend that to other states that have taken in Texas Democrats. This blatant display of authoritarianism and bullying and bad faith negotiations with the other political party behind Texas's redistricting attempt and the threat that it will spread to other red states seems to have pushed national Democrats to realize that they need to do what their constituents have been begging them to do for a long time, at least since Trump was sworn in, and that is to fight fire with fire. Axios is reporting this, quote, promises to gerrymandered Democratic led states may have begun as threats of mutually assured destruction aimed at getting Texas to back down. But now they've been hardened into cold political reality. Democratic governors and state legislators can either fight back or they can let Donald Trump and Republicans steal the midterm elections. That's House Democratic Caucus Vice Chair Ted Lieu. That is in line with the case Democratic leadership has made privately. According to multiple sources, quote, every Democratic governor with these levers should get a plan together. That's according to one senior House Democrat. Joining our conversation is host of the Bulwark podcast, MSNBC political analyst Tim Miller. Also joining us, Democratic strategist Columbia University professor, MSNBC political analyst Basil Smichel. Basil, color me skeptical that the Democrats are really going to do something that I know in their heart of hearts they likely find distasteful, they likely find it anti Democratic. But here, the Republicans aren't threatening, they're doing and let me just add, let me just fill out the picture of what the Republicans are doing. This is from Punchbowl. House Republicans now aim to pick up a dozen or more House seats, a dozen in an unprecedented Donald Trump backed redistricting drive. Looking to head off a Democratic Wave in the 2026 Midterms and cement the president's power, Republicans are hoping to net a minimum of Three House seats in Florida. Add to that the five seats in Texas, one each in Missouri and Indiana, two or three in Ohio where state law mandates a redraw ahead of 26. So that's, I'm not great at math, but that's 3, 5, 8, 9. I mean, we're at go time and I really worry that Democrats will talk about it and say if this then that, no, no, no, it's go time for the Democrats. Are they ready?

Andrew Weissman (37:40)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (37:41)

I gotta tell you, it's my concern also. I don't know if I'm quite skeptical, but I am nervous. How about I use that word? And before I get into that, I just want to raise a point from Governor Abbott's interview when he referred to the Democrats when he said he was going to go after these runaway Democrats, you know, something in my head makes that sound like runaway slaves. That's not lost on me. And he, his thing, his comments about taking every step necessary and sending law enforcement and the potential for these Democrats to be brought back to the state in chains, potentially handcuffed, to be made to sit in a chamber and watch this vote take place, knowing exactly what's going to happen and watching their power erode. You know, I think that should be a wake up call to anyone who is on the fence about what the steps need to be taken to go forward. What is happening in Texas amounts to a political apartheid because it's not just the congressional seats that are being gerrymandered because that gives way to the state legislative seats and the local legislative seats to also be altered. So the isolation, the political and economic and power isolation that is in store for Texas and any other state that does this is going to be so significant and it will have an effect for decades to come. So Democrats need to do this. And look, Matt Dowd has talked about this on air for the last couple of days, that in a perfect world we would want to see this kind of nonpartisan gerrymandering take place. And in fact, a number of states, including New York, have actually instituted that. So I do think that there is going to be, as you alluded to, some holding of the nose to undo that, to make this blatantly political. But what choice do Democrats have at this point? Because if we see this erosion of power, then it will amount to an apartheid in this country. And I don't know when that can get undone. So that period of time, and I've talked about this before with you, that period of time where we were holding up when they go, hello, we Go high like that. That's been done a long time ago. And if there is a moment in time where that needs to be put away, it's right now.

Nicole Wallace (40:01)

Tim. I do not worry that Democrats don't have the tools. I am more than nervous. I despair that they don't have the balls to do what they need to do. This time when everything's going to work out is over. It's like the Sixth Sense. Bruce Willis is dead and the only one that knows it is the little kid. It is over and Democrats should find a new word for it. It's not gerrymandering. It's racist disenfranchisement of American voters and Democrats. You know, they blinked in Georgia when they said, no, no, no, don't boycott Georgia. And they blinked and balked in New York and everywhere. I mean, it is go time. It is time to save democracy or just watch it burn.

John Heilman (40:41)

I am bringing some uncharacteristic good news, Nicole. This is unusual spot for me to be.

Nicole Wallace (40:48)

This is a total reversal.

John Heilman (40:51)

I shared your concern and I just. There's a conference happening down here, Netroots. So I got to have dinner last night with Beto, and I just finished lunch with Rob Bonta, who's the Attorney General of California, and I just gave him that same speech you just gave. And, you know, he assured me that the Democrats are gonna do what they need to do in California and that he expects that the legislature is going to move and there'll be something on Gavin Newsom's desk by the end of the month, and then there'll be a ballot initiative that'll have to be put before the voters. And this goes back to kind of past. We go. They go low, we go high. Elements of Democrats is there is a disproportionate number of blue states that you have a lot of hoops, have more hoops you have to jump through than in some of these red states because of some pro democracy reforms that had happened in the past that were well intended. And so one of those in California is you do have to take this to the voters, and in this case, it's relatively more transparent than what's happening in Texas. And it's still gerrymandering. But you take. You take the actual maps to the voters and they can vote on it. So I assume that the California voters would share the view of those on this panel that this is something that should be done if Texas is going to act the way they're acting. So I think there's some good signs There I worry, though, you know, about that's why I said it's only partially good news. I've got to be typical is that other states can move on. The Republicans, I think we're gonna see stuff in Florida and Indiana and elsewhere. And there are other Democratic states like Maryland, West Moore and other folks are gonna have to step up, too.

Nicole Wallace (42:19)

Yeah. I mean, J.D. vance has been reported to be working on this as the country's vice president. Donald Trump is urging this as the nation's commander in chief. And Democrats are worried that it looks bad. And I am worried that they will once again be restrained by their earnestness. I'm heartened by what you're saying about California, but to your point point, there are a lot more steps. It's if one more person goes on national television and says we're looking at it, I'm going to pull all of the hair out of my head. No one's going anywhere. We'll all be right back. We'll continue this conversation on the other side of a short break. Basil, tell me what this campaign to save democracy and save the midterms from Trump's attempts to rig them, what does it look like and sound like to you?

Tim Miller (43:08)

Well, look, you used the word skeptical before. I'm hopeful. You know, Harry Dunn talked earlier about not saying we told you so. I don't say we told you so, but what I do say is we've got to get to work and we got to find solutions. And I was at a retreat last week and I'm confident that we can find these solutions, but we got to be bold. We can't just sit back and, you know, say we'll deal with it when it comes solutions. We've got to be more proactive. And frankly, we've all been practicing resilience and joy. But right now I think I need a little more resilience with solutions on the table for me to feel a little more comfortable about where we are.

Nicole Wallace (43:49)

I mean, what the Democrats need to solve their democracy problems, their electoral problems, their political problems and their poll problems is to fight. They need to fight. They actually they need this fight to save democracy and they need this fight to save their party. I'm going to sneak in one more break. I'm going to ask both of you to stick around through one last break. We'll all be right back. Tim, I want to come back to you. I guess my worry is that Democrats already look like they're responding to something instead of saying we're going to save democracy, here are the pro democracy maps for California, New York and Illinois. They are now publicly saying, we're going to wait and see what happens in Texas. They've shown us who they are. We know already what they're going to do.

John Heilman (44:31)

Yeah, look, I understand their frustration with that and I understand that they're like, this goes against principle. And they're like, well, let's see if it happens first. But you're right. And I think that has to go beyond California. Like I said, I think that California feels like they're moving. There are other states that are potentially in play here, such as Maryland and Illinois. Not as many seats there. But this stuff could really matter. I mean, whether the Republicans have the house gavel in 2027 as you go into the 2028 election has huge implications, which we can talk about. Like, this is not so. It's just, it's too important to sit on the sidelines. I think there are a lot of other tactics here, but the actual making of the rules of the game that the Republicans are trying to change is the important first step before you get to the actual game itself, which is the midterm election, which they know they're.

Nicole Wallace (45:18)

Going to lose the game, which is why they're rigging the electorate. They know that their stuff is so unpopular, everything from the tariffs to inflation to even immigration. Basil. This conversation is to be continued, my friend. Thank you for being part of it today. Tim sticks around through the next hour after the break for us, keeping the vulnerable and the innocent away from Ghislaine Maxwell, even in prison. We'll bring you that story next.

Paige Mazzoni (45:48)

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Nicole Wallace (47:47)

I wrote a letter to Deputy Attorney General Blanche saying, you know, these are my concerns about what's happening and there.

Paige Mazzoni (47:54)

Has not been a response.

Nicole Wallace (47:56)

So you know, we I know, speaking with other survivors in this case, that even though so many politicians are talking about this, I don't think anyone has.

Paige Mazzoni (48:03)

Actually been contacted by anyone reached out.

Nicole Wallace (48:09)

Hi again everyone. It's now 5 o' clock in the east as we hear there from one of Jeffrey Epstein's accusers and survivors, Annie Farmer, about the silence the victims of Epstein and his accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell are experiencing right now from the Trump Justice Department. New developments today on the part of DOJ Attorney General Pam Bondi and Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche earlier telling the judges who oversaw the Epstein and Maxwell cases that they want the grand jury exhibits in addition to the transcripts unsealed. They note that those exhibits would be subject to appropriate redactions of victim related and other personally identifying information. The efforts by the Trump administration to unseal grand jury material has caused strife among Epstein's victims, and a lawyer for several of them responded to DOJ's move today by saying this, quote, the pursuit of grand jury materials and transcripts is a useless and intentional distraction. We will learn nothing by chasing that rabbit, and the focus on Maxwell by this administration is a pain point for those who've already endured the unimaginable. A letter earlier this week from attorneys who represent numerous Epstein victims, says this quote, for survivors who bravely testified, the perception that Ms. Maxwell is being legitimized in public discourse has already resulted in re traumatization. In the meantime, Ghislaine Maxwell has been moved to a cushy prison camp following her meetings with Deputy Attorney General Blanche, a camp the Washington Post describes like this quote, with its red roofed dormitories, grassy courtyards and wrought iron fences, the Bryan Federal Prison Camp in Texas looks almost like a college campus. Befitting its reputation as one of the nation's most lenient lockups for non violent women offenders, the camp offers recreational options, including an athletic field, library and arts and crafts programs. But NBC News has reporting on at least one thing Maxwell will not be allowed to do there, train service dogs. Paige Mazzoni, who leads the Canine Companions program, said this quote, we do not allow anyone whose crime involves abuse toward minors or animals, including any crime of a sexual nature. That is a hard policy we have. So she will not be able to. Those are crimes against the vulnerable and you're putting them with a puppy who is vulnerable, end quote. That is where we start the hour with Paige Mazzone. She's the CEO of Canine Companions. Also joining us, Puck News senior political columnist, MSNBC national affairs analyst John Heilman's back and the host of the Bulwark Podcast. MSNBC analyst Tim Miller is still with us. Paige, what you do is heroic. These dogs, these dogs that are trained to be companions are angels, four legged angels walking on planet Earth. And I wonder if you could just tell us why Ghislaine Maxwell is not suited for them. Sure.

Paige Mazzoni (51:12)

Cannon Companions has prison programs all over the country. We have 25 of these programs. We've raised puppies in prisons for over 30 years, starting in Oregon. And our program is designed to have who are very interested in rehabilitation and giving back to their community, help us raise puppies before they turn in for training to be paired with a client with a disability. One of our that there is a process for being able to train these dogs. And that process includes both the prison suggesting people who are already on the somewhat good list, already on their way to doing good things while they're in prison. And then we also have our own application process. One of the guidelines in our process is that we do not allow anyone who has committed a crime against minors or animals, including crimes against those communities of a sexual nature, to raise or be involved in our program. And that's for a couple of reasons. We serve a vulnerable population People with disabilities are considered a vulnerable population. And a puppy, if you put it in the hands of a handler, is a vulnerable animal. So we also, some of our clients are children. And one of the things that happens when they are placed with their dog is they are allowed to meet and know who their puppy raiser is. So we wouldn't want to have someone who has injured children meeting a client child who is getting one of their dogs.

Nicole Wallace (52:40)

Your quotes in the story that I read from just stand out in this moment where there seems to be an entire federal government ignoring the very plain facts you just laid out that a puppy is a vulnerable animal. A convicted criminal convicted of crimes against children, girls, is not a match to be with a vulnerable animal. Why is something that's so obvious in your field seem to be lost on people in powerful positions in our government?

Paige Mazzoni (53:15)

Good question. I think we have. The wonderful thing about being in this role is we have a mission to help people with disabilities. We're a nonprofit, we're a non political entity, and we've done this for many, many years. This year is our 50th anniversary as an organization. We've had over 1500 dogs raised in prisons. We know how to do this well. And I think one of the wonderful things about being a non political entity is you can make decisions to do things the right way to serve your clients. And our clients are people with disabilities who have their lives changed by being placed with a highly trained service dog. We're laser focused on our mission. This is a rule we've had in place. Luckily we have policies that make sense and they come in handy.

Nicole Wallace (54:08)

Have you ever dealt with in any of the prisons you've worked with over 30 years, with any other child sex offenders being potential candidates?

Paige Mazzoni (54:22)

I cannot answer that question directly because I haven't been in the organization for 30 years. But I can tell you that we have not allowed any other child sex offenders to be part of the program. So that is consistent when the policy was made.

Nicole Wallace (54:37)

What is it about a child sex offender that disqualifies them from working with a service animal?

Paige Mazzoni (54:45)

I think the fact that their crime is against a vulnerable population, and again, we serve a vulnerable population and these puppies go in at eight weeks and are raised until they're about 17 or 18 months and then turn into professional training. A puppy is vulnerable. A puppy needs someone who is really going to understand that vulnerability and protect it. And so while we are pretty open to a lot of different possibilities of rehabilitation in the prisons and truly, truly believe that our incarcerated handlers are rehabilitating and doing good. There are certain populations that we have made. The choice are just too risky to include.

Nicole Wallace (55:28)

Paige Mazzoni in being true to your mission and being faithful to your puppies and in serving the people who will ultimately have this gift of these four legged angels on earth. Your voice just rings out for its clarity and its lack of political anything. So thank you for sharing it with us. Thank you so much for starting with.

Paige Mazzoni (55:50)

Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Nicole Wallace (55:52)

Thank you, John Heilman. You're here for many reasons. I've turned to you on the Epstein story, but you're also like me. Share this belief that dogs are four legged angels walking among us. And the idea that Ghislaine Maxwell is not suitable to be near a puppy because they are vulnerable and they're going to spend their lives, their dog lives, with vulnerable humans, vulnerable companions is to me so effed up that we're even having this conversation. Like, how did Ghislaine Maxwell end up from low security to no security prison camp? I mean, I mean, she's too dangerous to be near the Canine Companion Program. What are we doing here?

Harry Dunn (56:42)

Well, for one thing, we're protecting the puppies. You know, Nicole, I mean, Pages. Yes, well, all of us. All of us are. Look, you know, you're a dog lover, as you said a second ago. You've had many. Three at this moment. Or two currently.

Nicole Wallace (57:01)

Me, I have two. I have two. Honey and poppy.

Harry Dunn (57:04)

Right, Right. Dizza's sitting right behind me over here on the couch. He's not a puppy. He's not a service animal. You can't really see him. But he's 160. He's fat right now. He's 167 pounds right now. A Great Dane. I wouldn't let Ghislaine Maxwell within the same zip code as the big guy over here. And I wouldn't let them in the same county with your two sweethearts. Like, you know, I think that's a perfectly reasonable policy. And I've actually, I've been a donor for a long time to a group called Puppies Behind Bars that does that. Takes that train service animals and has them work with incarcerated populations. I'm a huge believer in that program, but I think it's just, it's the most. I don't even understand why there would be any confusion. I appreciated your interview, but like, of course you're, you know, you would never want to have someone as heinous as Julian Maxwell anywhere in the same vicinity with a dog anymore. You would want to have Joanne Maxwell in the same vicinity with a baby, a child, or really any adult that you know. So where are we? We're in a situation where she's in a place she abjectly obviously doesn't belong for obviously political reasons. It is, you know, as we've discussed on this program at some length, one of the main. If you were someone who didn't believe there was a cover up going on around the Jeffrey Epstein story prior to her meeting with Todd Blanche and her subsequent transfer from the appropriate facility she was in to the current facility that she's in, you now think watching that thing unplay out, that that is maybe the strongest prima facie case that there's a cover up going on here. And, you know, I covered her father, Robert Maxwell, when I first started in journalism and lived in London, he was a heinous man, also a liar, a fraud, a thief, who eventually his lies, his frauds and his thievery as a businessperson raiding his company's pension funds to prop up the company's share price eventually drove him to. Many people suspect he ended up dying in the water off the Canary Islands. Most people believe that he killed himself because of the impending exposure of his crimes. So. So the depravity runs in the family, in that family, at least from father to this daughter. And as I said, sitting here right now, I'd be out picketing if they let Ghilaine Maxwell get anywhere near the puppies or the grown adult dogs in that facility.

Nicole Wallace (59:35)

So, Tim, the reason Ghislaine Maxwell can't be near this program and the Voldemort puppies is because of the nature of her crimes. And I think that Trump winning after being convicted of 34 felonies has also had this downward pressure on the idea of convicted felons. Well, you know, convicted felons, they can do anything. They can be president of the United States, maybe. But you know what they can't do? They can't be alone with a puppy. Because to carry out your crimes and be convicted of them when they are against a vulnerable population, in this case, children, young girls, disqualifies you from being around or training a puppy, a program that's existed for 30 years. And I think it's so important because I feel like people are throwing around, you know, convicted sex offender Ghislaine Maxwell. It rolls right off your tongue every time we cover her. Her crimes were to sexually molest herself with her own hands, her own body, girls, to tell them to take off their underwear. She is a sex criminal and she is being treated as someone credible by Todd Blanche. She has this upgrade in her prison conditions approved by somebody in the Trump administration. And I feel like for all the sleepwalking Republicans have done for nine years, this is among the most heinous that the Republican Party has slept, walked through.

John Heilman (60:59)

Yeah, it is crazy that nobody really has spoken out in opposition to this within this administration and this party. Just the complete moral bankruptcy of it. When you were talking about how we've kind of defined deviancy down or whatever about felonies because Trump won again in 24, I thought you'd reference in 2016, there was this feeling of after Trump won, even after the Access Hollywood tape, even after he was admitted on tape that he had sexually assaulted women and had dozens of women that had accused him of some type of sexual misconduct, that there's this kind of sense among people that like, well, what are you going to do now? Right. There was a referendum on this and people voted. And while, yeah, there was a referendum on Donald Trump and he won, and we're going to suffer a lot as a country for that. There still are rules of the game that need to be abided by. There's still rules of the country that need to be abided by more accurately. And in this case, this is a total exception. It's a crazy outlier. There are no sex offenders in these types of prisons. Forget being around puppies, just being in this kind of club fed style prison. It's a white collar crime type prison. And she's not just some sex offender. And you both use the word heinous. It's the most heinous of the sex crimes. And she essentially brought girls into a quasi sex slavery. And there were girls that were in their clutches for, for years that she bullied and held hostage, essentially threatened making them come back either financially or through other threats. I mean, this is like she is the worst of the worst of humanity. And the fact that she got moved obviously as part of a deal. Right. We don't have reporting that was part of a deal. But there's no other conclusion you can come to based on the evidence. Someone with her kinds of crimes is not in these predictions. Prisons. She met with the deputy attorney general. A couple days later, she gets treatment unlike any other sex criminal in the entire Bureau of Prisons. So there was something happened or some deal. She's getting some sweetheart treatment from the Trump administration. We don't exactly know what yet. And it is truly appalling. And again, it's another example of the moral bankruptcy, the fact that nobody within the Trump administration at least has spoken up about.

Nicole Wallace (63:31)

It's also interesting that the victims themselves haven't heard from anybody at doj. So Todd Blanche, who Donald Trump seemed to think needed a reputational boost, he talked about what a fancy guy he was. At a press briefing this week, John has seen it fit to talk only to the convicted child sex trafficker. Let me just, I like to be really specific in what she's convicted of. I just want to read her convictions one more time. In 2021, Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted and is right now serving a 20 year sentence for conspiracy to entice minors, children to travel, to engage in illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors to participate in illegal sex acts, transporting a minor to participate in illegal sex acts, sex trafficking, conspiracy, sex trafficking of a minor. I mean, it sounds a whole lot like the pedophilia rings that animates QAnon. I remember Donald Trump saying to Savannah Guthrie a few years back, you know, I don't know anything about QAnon, but they're really good on pedophilia. Okay, what is your sense of where the laws of gravity around the Trump coalition and their politics stand right now, John?

Harry Dunn (64:47)

Well, I think what we're seeing and just, I, I just want to say Dizza just did a little Latin for me a second ago. When it comes to what Tim was talking about there, about the fact that we don't have any proof of a deal being cut, he said, he uttered as he walked out the door, he said, res ipsa loquiter, John. The thing speaks for itself. The thing speaks for itself. A deal has been cut. There is no other explanation. And again, I say something I said on the show yesterday. She's the worst of the worst. And Donald Trump has been asked to comment on her on repeated occasions going back all the way to that first Jonathan Swan interview. He has never on the record ever said a negative word about this person who committed the crimes that you just enumerated. He acts like she has something on him. That's again, the thing speaks for itself. I don't know what she has on him him. But I gotta say, the easiest thing to say in American politics is that sex criminal over there is a bad person and should be behind bars forever. That is a, that's not just a mom apple pie thing. That's a 100%, a 99.9999% issue. It's the easiest slam dunk in politics. And Donald Trump refuses to say the slightest critical thing about her under any circumstances. And I think in his case, what it reveals, the whole thing, Nicole, is that his concern with pedophilia, which has animated so much of the far right for these past months, weeks, years, for the last at least decade, his concern with pedophilia is totally bad faith. He doesn't care about pedophilia. He does not care about the victims, because again, if he did, he would speak out. He does not. He has a giant podium. He has truth social. He makes his feelings known on everything under the sun. He doesn't talk about the victims in this case ever. Right. So it's a bad faith thing. And I think your question is when we are already seeing the political laws of gravity kick in, because there are a lot of people in the MAGA base and elsewhere who do care about the victims. And a lot of those people, some of them are nuts, some of them are conspiracy theorists about things that are totally wacky and completely out to like just outer space, Pluto, Mars, Jupiter. But many of them are genuinely passionate about the victims of pedophilia. And other and many other millions of people who are not in qanon or not in part of non Trump space also care about the victims of pedophilia. Again, almost as easy as condemning a conviction convicted pedophile, sex criminal is to say nice things, to say offer words of sympathy, offer words of comfort, offer some kind of words to the victims. That's as easy a political slam dunk as the first one. And again, you get none of that from anybody in the Trump administration. But there are people out there, and these are the people who feel deceived, who feel lied to, who feel like Trump is gaslighting them now, who also at some gut visceral level, are starting to recognize that his concern, and probably their concern, meaning the Cash Patel's, the Dan Bonginos, everybody else who talks about this stuff, that it's all been a fraud. None of them cared about the victims, none of them cared about the perpetrators. They just cared about the fact that a bunch of people out there who they could dupe were working, worked up about this issue enough that if they said they were on their side, if they, the Trump people, the MAGA people said they were on their side, they could get their votes. That's all it's been. And it's another angle on the depravity and the moral bankruptcy of the leadership of this movement that's been laid bare over the course of the last few weeks.

Nicole Wallace (68:38)

And I wonder how the Dupes feel. I mean, I wonder how if Joe Rogan's going to ever say more than, oh, I draw a line in the sand. I mean, he carried a lot of COVID conspiracy theory water. He put Tulsi Gabbard and RFK in Donald Trump's cabinet. That's the only reason they're there. And he's been taken for an absolute foolish toady. So we'll see. We'll see if he has more to say than drawing that line in the sand.

Harry Dunn (69:02)

Nicole, I pray that Todd Blanche goes on the show. It'll be a great.

John Heilman (69:09)

Test of both of them.

Harry Dunn (69:10)

It'll be a great test of both of them.

Nicole Wallace (69:12)

We'll see. Hope is the pathway to despair. So I don't have any hopes for anyone holding the line against anyone anymore. But we'll see. It will remain interesting and we'll all cover it together. John Heilman, thank you for being here. I feel like we tapped into all your expertise. Maxwell Dogs Epstein, thank you. Tim Miller sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, Tim's extraordinary new interview with Andre Hernandez Romero, the Venezuelan makeup artist thrown into El Salvador sicot prison under the false accusation that he was somehow part of a gang. But he endured inside that notoriously dangerous prison, why he still has hope for the future, how he survived his time there and his message for Donald Trump in America next. Also ahead, how Trump has weaponized the culture wars and all aspects of American public life, including football. Former head of the NFL Players association witnessed it all firsthand and watched as the country's most popular and profitable sports league found itself crosswise with the then occupant of the White House. He'll be our guest later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. There's so many times when we talk.

Paige Mazzoni (70:24)

About due process and the rendition of these Venezuelans to El Salvador without due process. And you know, people in the comments are like, you know, due process is only for citizens, not quite right.

Nicole Wallace (70:38)

I mean, like, so there is also.

Paige Mazzoni (70:39)

A basic education that needs to happen that hasn't been happening. And you know, in the media, you kind of have to fill in those gaps. Like, okay, yes, non citizens don't have all of the same rights as citizens, but they're not completely devoid of rights. And in fact, they may actually have rights of due process, process that we must respect. And if we don't respect it for them, it means it's much easier not to respect those rights for the rest of us.

Nicole Wallace (71:09)

So that was My friend and colleague, Melissa Murray. She's a constitutional law expert, a former clerk for Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor. She is also my latest guest on the next episode of the Best People podcast. Just scan the QR code on your screen to subscribe to MSNBC Premium. You'll get early access to our conversation. Melissa's explanation of due process rights couldn't come at a more critical time, especially in the aftermath of the Trump administration deporting hundreds of Venezuelans to the notoriously horrible seacot prison in El Salvador with zero due process. It was a crisis and a scandal that gripped the country because of the stories of the men that were sent there. Men like Andre Hernandez, a Venezuelan hairdresser who was deported because his tattoos in honor of his mother and father were mistaken for some sort of affiliation with the Trend Aragua gang. Our friend Tim Miller had the chance to sit down and talk to Andre this week about his harrowing experience in cecot. Here's a look at some of their extraordinary conversation.

John Heilman (72:15)

Had you heard about the El Salvador prison before? Like, what were you thinking when they were taking you in?

Andrew Weissman (72:21)

No anto pendiente de cuantas carcel exise.

Nicole Wallace (72:25)

En el mundo nu anto pendiente. What am I doing here? Why am I here? We're back with Tim Miller. Tim, this is amazing. Tell me what. First, just tell me what it was like for you to talk to Andre.

John Heilman (73:00)

I mean, it was very emotional. So happy to be able to talk to him. He's. And that he's willing to. Just his demeanor and you see it a little bit there, but various times he's laughing. He talks a lot about how grateful he is to God and to his family that he's out. And, you know, it was kind of. That part is just astounding. It was very moving. It's just like, I mean, this person went through hell and we, our country, literally sent him to hell for no reason. And he was in there for four months and he confirmed to me the story that he was sexually assaulted in the prison in addition to other torture. And to come out and not just be enraged. I don't know. I would think that I would come out and if I wanted to go on somebody's podcast, it would be to yell and scream and to rage against the. The people that did this to me. And it was the opposite. And he just had this kind of grace and forbearance and humor. And so that part was extremely moving.

Nicole Wallace (74:04)

Talk about how he said he got through it.

John Heilman (74:08)

Yeah, he talked a lot about the fellow inmates, because it wasn't just him. And he was the face of this in a lot of ways because it was such an absurd situation. Right. That this hairdresser was in a gang. Right. And to Melissa Murray's point about education, one thing I wish I had just said more explicitly, he didn't even come illegally. It's not like he crossed. Not that it would have been okay if he did, but he came through the process that he was told to come through during the Biden administration through using the CBP1 app. So he hadn't even done anything wrong. And he gets sent to this prison. And so he becomes the face of this. But there were many others who were similarly in that situation. They were not in a gang. They didn't even come illegally. They came through the app and they were sent there because their tattoos. And so he was there with a lot of people in his boat. And he said he got through it a through faith in God, which he mentioned several times. But also this use the word camaraderie is probably wrong, but just the support of the other men that were in there with him. And to me, maybe the most moving part, the most emotional part for me is he said when they got out, they've been talking and. And texting. And he said a couple of the men now feel like they have this new life and are going to get married to the person that they had been dating or whatever before this all happened. And he said, I'm going to go get to do the hair and makeup for the weddings. And I'm very excited about that. So I know it's like, heartbreaking and also a little beautiful. So it's horrible that we did this to them, but it was that. It was these men bonded and we did it to them. And I wrote this morning about it a little bit for the Borg, Nicole, and you could probably speak to this. It reminded me a little bit of John McCain, honestly, talking about his time in the Hanoi Hilton. He always talked about the same thing about Bud Lee and the other people that he was in there with when we had worked for him. And I guess that's how you get through it. This case, though, heart pains me a little more since it was us doing it, not some foreign communist country, not.

Nicole Wallace (76:04)

A country we're at war with, but us and in our name. I want to read from what you write, it's hard not to contrast Andrew's mercy and forbearance with the small, sad grievances that dominate America's political life today. Our Current regime is powered by anger at 100 perceived slights. Too many brown people at Harvard, a book with gay penguins, a swimmer who didn't get the fourth place trophy she felt she deserved, having less than the Joneses. Meanwhile, the guy who came to America looking to make a life for himself was locked away in a foreign dungeon because he had the wrong tattoo. He was tortured, raped, and left for dead. He wasn't even allowed the dignity of calling his mother. This avalanche of trauma was piled onto him because the luckiest people in the history of the world were convinced that the immigrant down the street might eat their cat. You get out something that makes me cry, but you get at what is this politics of grievance that went from being sort of a party trick, right? All sort of, you know, the eye rolling at the Fox News, pumping the adrenals of the toxic male personality to real sadistic crap. And I wonder if you think we're anywhere close of a fever breaking moment.

John Heilman (77:23)

I don't know if we are. That's part that makes me mad. Right. And that was the nice thing where I'm trying to learn from Andrey a little bit from our. At least a little bit that I got to know him in the exchange because I am aggrieved at the grievance people. Right. I'm mad at them for doing this.

Nicole Wallace (77:36)

Yeah, me too.

John Heilman (77:38)

And it's just like everybody has legitimate grievances. Bad things have happened to people. I understand people have real challenges. Right. I get it. But to be in America in 2025, 2024, when vote for Donald Trump is just this great blessing. I think about all of the other things that other people have to be aggrieved about. Think of what Andree has, has to be aggrieved about. To be wrongfully sent to a foreign dungeon for four months to be sexually assaulted. He has so many reasons to be angry and filled with rage and filled with grievance. And for him to come out the other side and want to preach empathy anyway, the contrast between that and the people that put him there is just so stark.

Nicole Wallace (78:19)

Timila, this is why we need you. This is why you're one of our best people. Thank you so much. And anyone that hasn't watched the whole thing, it's incredible. Incredible. We'll play more of it on Monday. She'll come back. Thank you for being here, my friend. When we come back, how Donald Trump inflamed the culture wars in our country, even in sports, football. Demora Smith, the former head of the NFL Players association witnessed it all going toe to toe with the league's billionaire owners and commissioner Roger Goodell. Smith's new book is called Turf wars the Fight for the Soul of America's Game. You'll be our guest next. Don't go anywhere. Wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners when somebody disrespects our.

Pandora Voiceover (79:06)

Flag to say, get that son of.

Nicole Wallace (79:08)

A off the field right now.

Pandora Voiceover (79:10)

Out.

Nicole Wallace (79:11)

He's fired.

Harry Dunn (79:13)

He's fired.

Nicole Wallace (79:16)

It's been nearly eight years since those comments set off a national firestorm that engulfed some of the of this country's most popular athletes in one of the first culture wars that Donald Trump launched and weaponized while president. The first time Trump calling for the removal or firing of professional athletes who made the choice to take a knee during the playing of the national anthem. For those players, it was a show of an expression of their First Amendment rights, but also a show of support for former San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick in his fight for racial equality and a demonstration against police brutality. The story became just another chapter though of Damora Smith's nearly 14 year tenure as the executive director of the NFL's Players Association. During that time, Smith went toe to toe with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and the league's fraternity of billionaire owners on issues ranging from player safety, bitter collective bargaining negotiations which led to a league lockout, as well as some of the most contentious league crises like the national anthem protests which put America's most popular and profitable sport at odds with the Trump White House. Let's bring in Damora Smith. He's the former executive director of the NFL Players Association. He is the author of Turf the Fight for the Soul of America's Game. It's so nice to get to talk to you. We covered this almost every day when it was happening and it's really a treat to get to find out what that was really like behind the scenes.

Pandora Voiceover (80:47)

Well, Nicole, thanks. It's a pleasure to be here. I can tell you behind the scenes, it was exactly what you described. I mean, it was the weaponization of perceived grievances and the use of it to develop a culture war. But I was truly proud of the way in which the players responded. And this idea that you can separate politics from football or you can separate history from a sport, as you know, is just simply a fool's errand. And I was proud that they embraced their right to express themselves, but equally important, their right to fight back.

Nicole Wallace (81:28)

You know what's interesting to me about looking at this Story after Trump's elected a second time. And watching the way. I mean, he's not. He's clearly not an actual sports fan. He's using culture and sports as political wedges. And it's interesting to me, to me that the. That more athletes don't feel their power, don't use their voices. It seems like fewer athletes and football players are speaking up and speaking out. Does it. What does it look like from your informed perch?

Pandora Voiceover (82:01)

You know, football and athletes are a microcosm of the country, and you've seen probably better than others. You know that there are certain reporters that may not want to cover something. You know that there's people who may want to speak out against this administration, or I would say, speak up for the rights and for the Constitution that's supposed to protect us all. But everyone is afraid of the retaliation. Everyone is afraid of being called out. You look at what's happening with our colleges and our universities, what's happening with our museums, what's happening with freedom of the press. I mean, this is a coordinated effort to suppress not only the freedom of speech, but to suppress anyone who believes that something is terribly wrong going on here. And they've done, frankly, a very, very good job of scaring people into silence. And that's literally one of the reasons I wanted to write Turf Wars. Football is a great sport. I absolutely love it. I will tell you, I was a terrible football player in high school, but I love the game. But I think it's important that we embrace the truth of the game. And that truth includes issues of race. That truth includes issues of gender, power, class. And certainly it includes this idea that if. If we make a decision, that we're going to leave everything up to a group of billionaires because we actually believe that they have a working person's interest in mind. I sat on the front lines for 15 years, and I can tell you the 31 billionaires who run the National Football League aren't losing a whole lot of sleep about what's happening to a football player's body or his mind.

Nicole Wallace (83:58)

Say more about the billionaire owners. I think you write in the book that they gave $7.5 million. Just a group of them. I think that's three of them. Say more about the twin dynamics at play, both acquiescing in a climate of fear and actually agreeing and supporting this current president.

Pandora Voiceover (84:19)

Well, look, I think the anthem protest, when we were going through it as a collection of men and a collection of a union, a labor union, and, you know, for 14 years, 15 years. I never shied away from the fact that we are a labor union and we were going to run it like a labor union. Anyone who has grown up in the labor management dynamic understands that that is a dynamic that is governed by one thing, power. And you either figure out ways to mute or offset the power from management. And unions have been doing that since Mother Jones and the Cold War battles of the 20s and 30s. Ludlow Triangle, shirtwaist, factory fire. Those are things that literally define the role of power in this dynamic. So when you do find yourself into a business that is incredibly powerful. The National Football League every year is 90 of the top 100 shows. They will approximately, what, $25 billion in revenue next year. Nobody should feel sorry for an NFL player because those players are getting nearly 50 cents on every dollar of revenue that they generate. But we only have those benefits, we only have those pensions, we only have that health care, we only have that share of revenue because there has been a historically strong union to fight for them. And I think again, going back to this sort of enchanted world, that if we just leave it up to billionaires because they're good business people, it's somehow going to trickle down and make the lives of ordinary working people better. I think that you could look at the Gilded Age, you could look at the robber barons of the 20s and the 30s, you could look at the rise of the antitrust laws, and there is a strong historical case that that is simply not the truth. And I think we find ourselves in that place.

Nicole Wallace (86:23)

Now. I want to ask you, I mean, you dish. You name names and you dish in the book. So I want to read some polls from the book. I have to sneak in a quick break first. Please stay with us through the break and we'll get into the book on the other side. We're back with Damora Smith, author of the new book Turf wars the Fight for the Soul America's Game. Let me, let me read this. In August20. In August 2021, my phone chirped with a text from Aaron Rodgers. Can you call me? It read, could I not run into traffic? Instead, Aaron would later become a full blown conspiracy theorist and vaccine skeptic, going on shows hosted by Joe Rogan and Pat McAfee to spread his unsubstantiated opinions about the news media's supposed business relationship with pharmaceutical companies, lament the actions of woke culture and attack Kansas City tight end Travis Kelce because he appeared in an ad for Pfizer. As more research comes out, Aaron claimed during one such appearance On Rogan, there's more papers published in very reputable scientific publications that talk about all the things I was stumping for and talking about. Once the season began, we risked missing more games than we missed the year we didn't have a COVID vaccine. Rogers and Beasley each tested positive, forcing them to miss games. And Beasley racked up about $100,000 in fines for openly flouting the league's guidelines and claiming in a social media post that a teammate was hospitalized because he had received the vaccine. As hard as I fought to make sure every player got paid, healthy or not, it drove me crazy that Cole Beasley was actively spreading disinformation and a virus while collecting his full paycheck. Just back to your point about the league as a microcosm. I mean, all these dynamics, all these power centers played out spectacularly in last year's presidential election.

Pandora Voiceover (88:11)

Absolutely. And look, you know, it's, I was always struck that, you know, there's only 1850 active NFL players. I mean, that's it. And you, you know, wonderfully manage, you know, providing news and opinion to millions of people in the country. When I found myself fighting the battle of facts and whether or not truth actually means truth with just 1800 people, it just dawned on me just how much of a strange world that we had found ourselves in and the fact that literally it was easier to get through Covid without a vaccine than in the year that we had the vaccine, which is literally mind boggling. But that is literally when you weaponize, you weaponize this idea of conspiracies and half truths and other utter falsities. And I think people found themselves in a world where they would literally rather feel better than be better.

Nicole Wallace (89:23)

It's amazing. And the book is amazing. You're here today to talk about, about the books, but I want to ask you to come back because Donald Trump isn't done with the NFL. He's like he wants, I mean, I think you write about how he's put himself in the middle of wanting teams to revert back to their old names. And there are other deals he's going to put himself in the center of. So I hope you'll come back and talk about those ongoing crises.

Pandora Voiceover (89:50)

I would absolutely love to.

Nicole Wallace (89:52)

Okay. So the book is called Turf wars, the Fight for the Soul of America's Game. Smith, thank you for joining us. This conversation is to be continued. A quick break for us. We will be right back. The Smithsonian's National Museum of American History today unveiled its updated impeachment display. One that restores Donald Trump's name. With some edits to the placards. They now go into less detail about Trump's actions on January 6th. It comes more than a week after they wrote removed any reference to his two impeachments. At the time, the Washington Post reported that the change came about as part of a content review that the Smithsonian agreed to undertake following pressure from the White House to remove an art museum director. We'll stay on top of that. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful.

Paige Mazzoni (90:46)

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And have you been listening to my podcast? We are knee deep in season three, and if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page 6? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office? Or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off Camera with Kelly Rabba now. Wherever you get your podcasts.