“Jokers, crackpots, and crooks”

Summary

Deadline: White House – Episode: “Jokers, Crackpots, and Crooks”
Release Date: June 20, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC

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1. U.S. Involvement in the Israel-Iran Conflict

The episode delves into the escalating tensions between Israel and Iran, with significant focus on the potential for U.S. military intervention. Host Alicia Menendez, standing in for Nicolle Wallace, opens the discussion by questioning whether the United States will engage directly in the ongoing conflict.

Key Highlights:

• President Trump's Stance:
  The Trump administration has signaled a potential decision within the next two weeks regarding U.S. involvement. At [01:39], Menendez cites a White House statement:

  "Based on the fact that there's a substantial chance of negotiations that may or may not take place with Iran in the near future, I will make my decision whether or not to go within the next two weeks."

• Potential Military Action:
  New reports suggest that Trump has approved attack plans targeting Iran's nuclear facilities but is withholding final orders to pressure Tehran into abandoning its nuclear program. David Frum elaborates at [03:58]:

  "President Trump is looking at the possibility of dropping a bunker buster... There's a lot of officials in the Trump administration who seem to think that this is a one drop, one and done type deal."

• Pentagon’s Caution:
  Pentagon officials warn of Iran’s capabilities to retaliate, including the potential to mine the Strait of Hormuz, a crucial global oil chokepoint. This could severely disrupt international oil supplies, as highlighted by [05:55]:

  "Iran retains the naval assets and other capabilities it would need to shut down the Strait of Hormuz, a move that could pin any US Navy ships in the Persian Gulf."

• Divergent Views Within the Administration:
  CIA Director John Ratcliffe has expressed concerns about Iran's nuclear intentions, contrasting with the intelligence community’s assessment that Iran has not yet decided to build a bomb. Menendez raises this at [06:47], and Frum acknowledges the split:

  "Tulsi Gabbard's assessment is still the assessment of the intelligence community... President Trump has made clear that he is choosing now not to believe Tulsi Gabbard."

• Internal Criticism:
  David Frum offers a scathing critique of the Trump administration’s preparedness and decision-making capabilities at [08:33]:

  "This collection of jokers and crackpots and crooks... Trump enjoys the feeling of power in his hands but flinches from the consequences of responsibility."

• Economic and Strategic Risks:
  The potential mining of the Strait of Hormuz and subsequent gas price spikes are discussed as significant economic threats. Additionally, the impact on U.S. alliances and the possibility of a protracted military engagement are emphasized.

2. Immigration Enforcement at Dodger Stadium

The episode shifts focus to the Trump administration’s aggressive immigration policies, highlighting a recent incident involving ICE agents at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles.

Key Highlights:

• ICE Presence and Community Impact:
  ICE agents attempted to access Dodger Stadium’s parking lots but were denied entry by the organization. NBC News correspondent Jacob Sorroff provides on-the-ground insights at [34:36]:

  "Protests are expected again tonight during the Dodgers-Padres game, reflecting ongoing tensions over ICE raids across Los Angeles."

• Historical Context:
  The historical significance of Dodger Stadium as a site of forced evictions of Latino communities in the 1950s adds emotional weight to the current situation, as discussed by Sorroff at [34:10].

• Fear and Frustration Among Immigrants:
  Immigrant communities express maximum fear due to relentless ICE raids affecting families and community members. Menendez emphasizes the pervasive fear at [35:53]:

  "Everyone knows somebody who's affected by this here in this city. The protests... are all about getting ICE out of Los Angeles."

• Congressional Oversight Challenges:
  Congressman Jimmy Gomez criticizes the Department of Homeland Security’s new policy requiring 72-hour notice for congressional visits to ICE facilities, arguing it hinders necessary oversight. At [39:15], Gomez states:

  "They’re breaking the law, plain and simple... The American people need to speak up against it."

  This sentiment is reinforced by Benny Thompson’s statement at [40:32]:

  "This unlawful policy is a smoke screen to deny members visits to ICE offices across the country. If ICE has nothing to hide, DHS must make its facilities available."

3. Business and Economic Outlook Amidst Tariffs and Fed Criticism

The podcast addresses the grim economic outlook faced by American businesses, exacerbated by the Trump administration’s unpredictable trade policies and attacks on Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell.

Key Highlights:

• Business Sentiment:
  A Business Roundtable survey reveals CEOs' pessimism about the economy, with expectations of reduced hiring, investment, and sales growth. At [69:38], alumnus David Frum explains:

  "CEOs are concerned, consumers are concerned, and businesses, they're not hiring, they're not investing... this is a tremendously dangerous thing to do."

• Trump’s Attack on the Federal Reserve:
  President Trump has repeatedly criticized Jerome Powell, undermining the Fed’s independence. Powell responded at [79:41]:

  "We think our policy is well positioned... That's what matters to us."

  Frum contends that Trump’s disregard for institutional norms shakes market confidence and global economic stability:

  "We are starting to see a little bit of shakiness in those foundations... they are starting to shake the market's confidence."

• Impact of Tariffs:
  The administration’s tariff policies create uncertainty, complicating business decisions and contributing to economic instability. Frum highlights the broader repercussions at [74:55]:

  "The economy is run by whim, which means... We just do not know, which is why so much of the economy feels like it's paralyzed."

• Public Sentiment:
  Polls indicate widespread concern among voters about inflation and economic conditions, with 84% extremely or very concerned about inflation and 55% feeling pessimistic about the economy. Alex Walkez from the White House National Economic Council emphasizes the disconnect between voter concerns and the administration’s focus:

  "Voters do not believe that is an issue that President Trump is focused on."

4. Juneteenth Celebrations Under Assault

Juneteenth, commemorating the emancipation of enslaved African Americans, faces challenges amid the Trump administration’s efforts to undermine diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives.

Key Highlights:

• Administration’s Policies:
  The Trump administration is actively working to remove DEI programs and reshape the narrative around American history. Michael Eric Dyson articulates the impact at [84:07]:

  "This administration is singularly focused on eradicating every trace of black history in America... This is by definition racist."

• Restoration of Confederate Monuments:
  The president's actions to rename military bases honoring Confederate leaders reflect a broader agenda to revisit and often distort historical narratives. Dyson criticizes this approach, stating:

  "He’s legitimating and validating the impulse of traitors to the American spirit of the American democracy."

• Cultural and Historical Erasure:
  The efforts to downplay or erase significant aspects of African American history are seen as modern forms of oppression. Dyson emphasizes the importance of DEI for America's identity and progress:

  "Without diversity, equity, and inclusion, America couldn’t be what it is today."

5. Elon Musk’s SpaceX Rocket Explosion

In a brief segment, the podcast touches upon the latest setback for Elon Musk’s SpaceX with the explosion of a Starship rocket in Texas, marking the fourth such failure this year. Musk remains optimistic, describing the incident as "just a scratch."

Conclusion

“Jokers, Crackpots, and Crooks” presents a critical examination of the Trump administration’s handling of foreign policy, immigration, economic stability, and cultural integrity. Through interviews with experts like David Frum, Helene Cooper, and Congressman Jimmy Gomez, the episode underscores the profound implications of current policies on national security, economic confidence, and social justice in America.

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Notable Quotes:

• David Frum at [08:33]:

  "This collection of jokers and crackpots and crooks... Trump flinches from the consequences of responsibility."

• Congressman Jimmy Gomez at [39:15]:

  "They’re breaking the law, plain and simple... The American people need to speak up against it."

• Michael Eric Dyson at [86:04]:

  "This is by definition racist... a modern form of oppression."

• Jerome Powell at [79:41]:

  "We think our policy is well positioned... That's what matters to us."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the critical discussions and expert insights on pressing national issues.

Transcript

[Alicia Menendez]

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[David Frum]

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[Alicia Menendez]

Hi everyone. It is 4 o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. The question of the hour Will the United States get involved in the conflict between Israel and Iran? At the White House today, Team Trump said in effect, state standby for the next two weeks. Here's the press secretary.

[David Frum]

Now regarding the ongoing situation in Iran. I know there has been a lot.

[Alicia Menendez]

Of speculation amongst all of you in.

[David Frum]

The media regarding the president's decision making and whether or not the United States will be directly involved.

[Alicia Menendez]

In light of that news, I have.

[David Frum]

A message directly from the president and.

[Alicia Menendez]

I quote, based on the fact that.

[David Frum]

There'S a substantial chance of negotiations that may or may not take place with Iran in the near future, I will make my decision whether or not to.

[Alicia Menendez]

Go within the next two weeks.

[David Frum]

That's a quote directly from the president.

[Alicia Menendez]

For all of you today, brand new reporting suggests that the Trump administration is on the precipice of an armed intervention. Three people familiar with deliberations tell the Wall Street Journal that Donald Trump, quote, told senior aides late Tuesday that he approved of attack plans for Iran but was holding off on giving the final order to see if Tehran would abandon its nuclear program. Trump is hoping that threatening to join Israel's strikes on Iran will compel Tehran to meet his demands in public. At least the Iranian regime remains defiant, saying that they will not negotiate and will retaliate if the US Launches airstrikes. The Pentagon already playing out what could happen next? The New York Times reporting officials are considering all of the ways Iran could retaliate. One possibility, according to officials, quote, iran retains the naval assets and other capabilities it would need to shut down the Strait of Hormuz, a move that could pin any US Navy ships in the Persian Gulf. American military officials say. In meetings at the White House, senior military officials have raised the need to prepare for that possibility after Iranian officials threatened to mine the strait if the United States joined Israel. Attacks on the country and that could have severe economic consequences. To the Times reporting, a quarter of the world's oil passes through it, so mining the chokepoint would cause gas prices to soar. Meanwhile, Israel and Iran continue to trade strikes. Major hospital in southern Israel took a direct hit from an Iranian missile. At least 40 people were injured. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu calling it the work of a, quote, criminal regime. That is where we start today with New York Times Pentagon correspondent and MSNBC contributor Helene Cooper. And joining me, David Frum, staff writer for the Atlantic and host of the video podcast the David Frum show, and former U.S. senator MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill. All right, Helene, let's start with you. What does your reporting tell you about what Donald Trump is considering?

[David Frum]

Well, he's looking. Hi, and thanks for having me. President Trump is, as we've all been reporting, looking at the possibility of dropping a bunker buster, which is sort of the act, the name we use for one of those big, really big bombs that only the United States has on the Fordo nuclear plant that is buried at more than 250ft in a mountain in Iran. That is one of the things that Israel can't do itself. I'd like to say, you know, know, we're in untread, untrodden territory, but we're not. We kind of have been in this place before, and we were here in 2003 when we went through, we went into the Iraq war. There seems to be a lot of officials in the Trump administration who seem to appear to think that this is a one drop, one and done type deal. We go in and you drop this bomb and the that's it. The Iranian regime is, the nuclear regime is done for. President Trump appeared to allude to that in his stream of tweets this week as well. The Pentagon is more cautious because they believe that the Pentagon, Pentagon officials believe that Iran can retaliate, you know, with all this bombing campaign that Israel has embarked upon. They have left Iran's naval assets so far alone. Iran retains the ability to mine the Strait of Hormuz. Iran still has enough ballistic missiles at this point. To attack American bases in the Mid east and attack American troops at those bases. So the Pentagon is preparing for the possibility that this could be a far more protracted military engagement back in the same region that we just left after 20 years than than President Trump seems to be alluding to.

[Alicia Menendez]

Helene, you laid out a series of differentials for us. There is also a differential in how different members of this administration are assessing the threat. There's reporting that CIA Director John Radcliffe has been arguing that Iran is very to having a nuclear weapon. This is from the Washington Post. Quote, Radcliffe used a football analogy in a closed door Senate Appropriations subcommittee hearing Tuesday to argue that the formal U.S. intelligence assessment that Iran has not decided to build a bomb is of limited use. Quote, it's like saying a football team marched 99 yards down the field, got to the one yard line and oh, they don't have the intention to score. One of the people quoted him as telling lawmakers, Helene, does that square with Tulsi Gabbard saying back in March that Iran has not decided to build a nuclear weapon, which to our understanding is still the current assessment of the intelligence community?

[David Frum]

No, you're absolutely right. That is Tulsi Gabbard's assessment is still the assessment of the intelligence community. So you have that difference of opinion. President Trump has made clear that he is choosing now not to believe Tulsi Gabbard. So we'll see how long that lasts there. You know, I've been covering this issue since 2006 and the number of stories and the number of times I have heard officials say that Iran is one month, two months, three months, two years. They're right at breakout is is about for the length of time I've been covering this issue, I've heard this over and over and over again. And I think it becomes a case of when does the United States and when does Israel decide to that they are ready, they're not willing to wait out or to allow negotiations to play out any longer. You will recall that there was a nuclear deal agreement with Iran that President Obama struck that President Trump then turned around and pulled the United States out of. So we are where we are and I think it's going to be a decision that will be made by President Trump. And he seems to be saying that nobody knows what he's going to do. He's going to decide when he's going to do it. Given up at this point on predicting what he's going to do. I'm not sure he knows.

[Alicia Menendez]

Smart move from a smart lady. David when you are in a pivotal moment for a presidency, which I think it is fair to call this moment, and a decision of this magnitude arises, what do those conversations normally look like? And then compare that to what we are seeing from this administration.

[David Frum]

Well, I don't think you should compare this administration to anything else in American history, this collection of jokers and crackpots and crooks. We should not allow the drama of the moment to efface from our minds what we know about this administration. It is vacillating, it is weak. When President Trump says he needs two weeks, that means he's looking for a way not to make a decision, not for a way to make a decision, that he enjoys the feeling of power in his hands, but he flinches from the consequences of responsibility. He staffed his administration with people who shouldn't be in positions of public trust. One obvious move that the Iranians would have, for example, if the United States struck at them, would be to activate terror networks inside the United States and inside America's. What remains of America's networks of all allies after Trump's attacks on all the allies. So we've got a now, if you're going to defend the country against those, you've got an FBI where they've laid off all the counterterrorism professionals headed by jokers. You've got a Department of Homeland Security that has spent hundreds of millions and millions of dollars on a advertising campaign to say thank again with kind of a play acting director. You've got a Defense Department who's under the leadership that no one would put this Defense Department under on the way to war. It just doesn't add up. So Trump loves bluster. He loves talk. One other thing that the Israelis need to keep in mind and my friends in the pro Israel community need to keep in mind. Trump betrays everyone who trusts him, with one exception, and that is Vladimir Putin, not Israel. He's betrayed his creditors, he's betrayed his investors, he's betrayed his wives, he's betrayed his children. Betray you to be wary of putting your trust in him. And Israel's not a very exposed position. It's begun a war with magnificent success. But it doesn't have an obvious way to bring the war to a successful conclusion. It was counting on Trump to help them. They must have relied on indications. But this two weeks. Two weeks. That's what Trump does when he's about to fold his cards.

[Alicia Menendez]

Claremon Castle. I want to know what you think of David From's assessment there, but I'm also curious how you would explain to Americans what, what is at stake for them when it comes to this decision?

[David Frum]

Yeah, well, first, David is right. I think it was going to be two weeks until Trump gave us his health care plan that was going to be so much better than Obama's. And I believe it was going to be two weeks until we had infrastructure. I mean, there's a two week theme here which basically translates into this is a guy who doesn't know what to do or how to do it, and he couldn't be more right about our vulnerability right now. If anybody believes this country is comfortable going to war under the leadership of Pete Hegseth, they're not paying attention. And I'd like somebody to get to the bottom of John Ratcliffe, who is head of the CIA, which are our boots on the ground in terms of assessing where Iran is when it comes to nuclear capability. And Tulsi Gabbard, I mean, Tulsi Gabbard is saying the intelligence community says they're not. And then John Ratcliffe says, yes, they are. This is where Congress needs some answers. And here's what I would say to the American people. Unless we know what victory looks like, unless we know how this ends, unless we know what the objective is, and unless we know the true risks, I don't think he's going to get the American people behind him behind this effort. And none of those have been explained to Americans. And keep in mind here that Iran is not Iraq. Iran has twice as many people. It has a unified, competent military. It has more resources than Iran had. It doesn't have the sectarian divisions that were so present in Iran between the Shiite and the Sunni. It is a predominantly Shiite country. They are unified in their opposition to Israel. Yes, they're not the most popular guy in the bloc in the Middle east. But there's a reason why this problem is hard in the Middle east. And there's a reason why so many people supported the deal with Iran that Obama made because it was verifiable and it was going to keep them from getting an atomic weapon. And Trump pulled out of it. I think mostly just because it was Obama's. And that's the kind of president he is. And that's why I think most Americans, I think the polling on this effort is very negative. And I think most Americans will quickly turn very sour on the idea of us going to war against Iran under the leadership of this commander in chief.

[Alicia Menendez]

David, to the point about fragility in the Middle East, I want you to take a listen to what Netanyahu had to say about US Involvement thus far.

[David Frum]

I can tell you that they're already helping a lot because they're participating in the protection of the skies over Israel and its cities with Thaad missile batteries that are in Israel, with Aegis ships that are on the shore of Israel with their pilots that are fighting alongside our pilots to knock out drones. I think it's a remarkable cooperation.

[Alicia Menendez]

Contextualize that for me, David, from what we just heard there from Netanyahu, well.

[David Frum]

That'S all surely true. And we saw under President Biden when the Iranians launched their barrages of missiles against Israel last year, and through Hamas attacks on Israel, the United States has been more present in the round of conflict since the October 7 terror attacks than ever before with, as Prime Minister Netanyahu said, direct American cooperation and the cooperation, by the way, of Great Britain and many Sunni Arab allies as well in protecting Israel. And that's all to be welcomed. But what Prime Minister Netanyahu has is that he's put his hand in the jar of walnuts, and the walnuts make him too large a fist to be able to pull out. Like in the old Aesop fable. He doesn't have a way to stop the most important program in the Iranian nuclear arsenal without American help. He's trusting the United States to come to his rescue and solve that last piece of the puzzle. Israel has done so many things with such ingenuity, such daring, such hard work, such terrible sacrifice. They are taking serious casualties in order to get to the end of the Iranian nuclear program. But in the end, he's relying on Donald Trump. And as Claire McCaskill said, when George W. Bush was making the case for war with Iraq in 2003, he went to Congress. He got a vote of two thirds affirmative in the House of representatives and 3/4 affirmative in the US Senate. He had the support of Democrats and Republicans. He had three quarters of public opinion behind him. He made an effort of mobilization. Whatever your assessment of the outcome of the Iraq war, George Bush did the things you're supposed to do to build consensus, to do something big. None of those things are happening. There's no appeal to Congress. There's no appeal to public opinion. Opinion. There's no effort to Donald Trump does not know how to be president of all of America. He has no interest. He's running kind of a. He's running this divisive regime. He won't make any concessions to opponents. He won't try to bring Democrats in. They would if they wanted. If he wanted their votes, you'd have to give them something. And since he gives nothing, he gets nothing.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well Claire, to the point that David Frum is making there you have Senator Mark Warner who's the leading Dem on the Intel Committee saying I don't know what the strategy is. I mean how alarming. I understand his total disregard for Congress, the fact that he does not feel he needs to get them on board for anything. But the fact that Mark Warner has no idea where this is headed, what does that tell you?

[David Frum]

Well, it tells me that the Republicans in Congress have really lost their way. Mark speaking up along with a number of other Democrats that spoke up today, including some in leadership saying they expect more information and they expect some, some kind of input if, if this president thinks we're going to go to war. But where, where is Rick Wicker, Roger Wicker and the chairman of the Armed Services Committee and where is the Republican chairman of the Intelligence Committee and where are the Republicans who some of them are very hawkish and I'm sure many of them are all in on on this happening. But that is a different issue than whether or not Congress should be brief is going on. They can't even get the intelligence community to agree publicly what the threat is. And how would they expect the American people to say yeah this is really a good idea when they're showing this kind of incompetence on the world stage.

[Alicia Menendez]

Helena, I am curious what your reporting tells you about the question that Claire asked, which is where is Wicker? But I also want to remind our audience that there are echoes of what we are seeing in the recent past. Back in 2019 you did some incredible reporting, Helene, about how Trump backed off of a strike with Iran with just 10 minutes to spare when he learned that 150 people would die. He liked being able to command the strike. He liked calling it off. It suggests that more than anything he likes to be in charge. Tell me if you think I am getting that right and is that the case now?

[David Frum]

I think you're absolutely right and I think that the center of attention with all the world, the eyes of the world right on him and on what is he going to do? What is he going to do? At the end of the day, you and I, we all know that Trump comes from a more non interventious strand of foreign policymaking. So it is not his instinct. He does not. He has demonstrated time and time again that he does not want to be involved in a long, in long term military entanglements in the Mid East. He appears at this point to have convinced himself that this could be a short term military entanglement. And that is where I think there's some dispute coming from the Pentagon about how long this could take dropping even if they're only going to go after Fordo, that's going to take a number of strikes. It's not going to be just one bomb. It would be waves and waves. You'd be looking at streams of B2s. So time, you know, time and again, you'd be looking at a number of strikes that would be necessary. So this is going to probably be a lot longer than I think he expects. But I don't know where he is going to come out on it. As for what Senator McCaskill is saying about where is Senator Wicker? She was on the Senate Armed Services Committee with him, but he's been in the past. He sat with the secretary of defense, Pete Hexseth, who was before the Senate Armed Services Committee testifying yesterday. And, and you know, the Sen. There were, there were a lot of questions from Democrats about where we're going on Iran. There weren't as many from Republicans. They were still focusing on the cultural issues. It felt like that Defense Secretary Hegseth himself has been so enamored of.

[Alicia Menendez]

Glad to know that they have their eyes on the prize at such a perilous time for this country. Helene Cooper, David Frum, thank you both so much for getting us started. Claire, you are sticking with me. When we come back. As the world waits and watches for what Donald Trump may or may not do, there is a fight on the right to influence that decision. And it seems like the president is watching a lot of FOX News lately. We're going to explain. Plus, a developing situation in Los Angeles after a series of new immigration enforcement action earlier today in Southern California, federal agents have moved to Dodger Stadium. Unclear at this hour what they plan to do there. NBC News correspondent Jacob Sober is on the scene for us. And later in the show, what retaliation could look like in Iran. Much more news to come when DEADLINE WHITE HOUSE continues after this. We'll be right back. The new Huggies snug and dry are luxuriously soft and ultra dry. How soft are we talking? Unbelievably soft. Irresistibly soft. Doesn't your baby deserve a diaper that's oh so gentle on their tushy? Huggy snug and dry helps keep them comfy, cozy and protected. Experience the unexpected softness and up to 100% leak protection. More parents choose the new Huggy Snug n dry softness versus the leading premium diaper huggies. We got you, baby.

[David Frum]

It's conversation. It's perspective. It's the weekend on MSNBC with three new dynamic hosts, Jonathan Capehart, Eugene Daniels and Jackie Alemany. And in the evening, it's the weekend prime time with Eamon Mohadin, Katherine Rampel, Elise Jordan and Antonia Hilton. Join them as they offer analysis on the week's most important events and set the agenda for the week ahead. The weekend at 7:00am Eastern and the weekend primetime at 6:00pm Eastern, Saturdays and Sundays on MSNBC. Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Progressive grassroots group Indivisible's co founder and co executive director, Leah Greenberg. If there's anything we know about successful movements to defeat autocracies around the world, successful movements to take down dictatorships is.

[Alicia Menendez]

That they build broad coalitions and the.

[David Frum]

Coalition may not be united by anything other than their opposition to what is currently happening.

[Alicia Menendez]

And that is okay.

[David Frum]

That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now. And follow they have collided with Donald J. Trump and he's crossed the line. He and Netanyahu are partners, much like Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were partners. And the two of them are going to change history decisively, I believe. They're going to break the mullahs and the regime, create a new Iran. How is Bannon and the folks that you mentioned and the people advocating for just sitting back and taking it easy, how are they any different than Biden's foreign policy? We have to do it. And I know President Trump probably watching it takes a lot of bravery. But as you've, I've been watching your.

[Alicia Menendez]

Show, you've shown that he's been very.

[David Frum]

Consistent about the fact that Iran can never have nuclear weapons. We can't go halfway here. We can't negotiate.

[Alicia Menendez]

So that's what it looks like over at Fox News this week, with the network seemingly begging their most influential viewer, the president of the United States, to increase this country's involvement in the conflict between Israel and Iran. And as Donald Trump flirts with the greater American involvement in the conflict, it's caused deep division in the MAGA movement, upsetting some of his most influential America first figures, the likes of Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon, who was spotted today outside the White House. Bannon has warned against any American involvement in the conflict. Joining the conversation, President of Media Matters for America, Angela Carson. Claire McCaskill is still with us. Angela, describe this division between the two factions of MAGA here.

[David Frum]

Yeah, and I think that's, it's so big that it then it even expands out to the larger sort of right wing media echo chamber because as you noted, Fox is pretty heavily in the go to war with Iran camp. They've been pushing this for a very long time. This they see as an opportunity and they know that they have Trump's ear. I mean, even though the last election there was much to be made about the podcast and the Internet, you know, so these online shows that Trump deployed and used, that's not his go to day to day. The lens through which he sees the world even still as president is cable news in Fox News is the main vehicle for that. That's why when he was criticizing Carlson, he said, look, tell him to get a TV network and then maybe people will listen to what he has to say because that's still the mindset. And so Fox is all in on this and they are reflective of.

[Alicia Menendez]

But why, why Angelo? Why are they all in on this?

[David Frum]

I mean, look, part of it is, is, is, is straight bigotry. I mean, they really, you know, they, they have really spun this narrative like we shouldn't forget about that, that, that Islam is a, is a fundamental problem, that we are in a battle for good and evil. And even though Hegseth has been a little bit sidelined in terms of his day to day involvement in this particular decision, let's not forget that Pete Hegsense, who is very reflective of the Fox News worldview, was somebody that described the great conflict not as one between the United States and China or other great powers, but as between Christianity and Islam. And that we had to go out there and do everything we can, including using our military to put that back in check. So they see this larger geopolitical world through that framework. And that is something that they've been pushing for a very long time. Aside from just having that is also part of their foreign policy. They don't believe that you should democratize other countries. They're warmongers. They believe in might makes right. And even though they are repeating Trump's line of peace through strength, they actually don't mean peace through strength. They mean strength first and then have peace because you have nothing left after that. I mean, that's honestly what they're actually saying. And it's core to the Fox News base. It also plays really well on tv. We shouldn't lose the sight of that. You know, Rupert Murdoch cut his teeth in the tabloids and one of the big things that he always did was find the most horrible, horrific things that he could tell stories about crimes, violent things, and exaggerate them, but also lay them into a demographic fight. That's part of how he came to be. He sees news through that storytelling perspective. And then you have people like Carlson and Bannon who have their own worldview, and a lot of it is hyper nationalist, and we shouldn't be celebrating that in that, even though they are taking a position here that seems more reasonable, it's coming from a really scary place. It is. It is coming from either straight up bigotry, you know, anti Semitism or a real deep, intense nationalism that is, you know, even if they get to the sort of destination there that seems peaceful, it's because they want to turn their energy internally on what they see as domestic enemies. That's the part that doesn't get sort of carried through here, is that they see the real threat not as foreign entities, not of these foreign entanglements, but as you and me, as members of the media and as advocates and people that are participating in civic, of civic spaces. That's who they see as the real target right now, as enemy number one. So we shouldn't lose sight of why they're advocating for peace. But the net effect of all of this, though, and this, I think, I think Senator McCaskill really illustrated this well in the first segment, is that this is the confusion. This is why Trump is on the sidelines. If Bannon and Tucker were either quiet or were in uniform with this idea that he should be bombing Iran, it would have happened already. And because part of how he sees the world is through these stories, he's trying to see how this particular chronicle plays out a little bit, you know, who wins in this narrative for hearts and minds, for audience share. And that's a big part of this, is seeing how the story plays out, because he honestly isn't sure there's something grounding him. And now it's just what's going to end up capturing the imagination of his base, of his audience. And where is he going to get the best rating so for himself?

[Alicia Menendez]

Claire McCaskill I'm a believer in narrative and in storytelling. That's why I do the work I do. I also don't think it should be the entirety of a superpower's foreign policy. Right. The fact that he's getting his intel from Fox News, the fact that, according to Politico, last week he had a private lunch. Mark Levin, with the president at the White House. MARK LEVIN told Trump that Iran was days away from building a nuclear weapon, an argument Trump's own intelligence team has told the president is not accurate. According to an intelligence official as well as another Trump ally familiar with the matter, Levin urged Trump to allow the Israeli government to strike Iranian nuclear sites. I mean, the fact, just to go back to where we were, that Mark Warner's not getting to sit down with the president and talk this through, but Mark Levin is. That tells you something, Senator. No.

[David Frum]

Yeah, it does. It tells you way too much. And by the way, let's not forget that this president famously took Putin's side against the American intelligence community in that famous meeting, I believe it was in Helsinki, where he and Putin came out, and he basically told the cameras that he believed Putin and not the men and women of the American intelligence community. And keep in mind, the vast majority of the men and women who work in the intelligence community are veterans, are militarily trained. And by the way, they're amazing, and they do really dangerous work, and they never get any. Any public credit. So that's one of the problems we have here. And here's another issue I think we need to think about a little bit. Donald Trump has isolated the United States vis a vis Bannon and Tucker and all of these isolationists who are peppered throughout the MAGA ecosystem, that this is about America first, and let's just take care of America and forget about the rest of the world, and let's give the back of our hand to Canada, and we don't need to be nice to anybody, including our allies in Europe who have stood by us many times, including the Iraq war. And now, if he goes forward with this, who is going to be America's ally? Does he think Russia is going to help him?

[Alicia Menendez]

No.

[David Frum]

Russia's with Iran. They're very quiet right now. They got their hands full in Ukraine. Is it going to be North Korea? You think Kim Jong Un is going to come in and help America against Iran? No, they relate more to Iran, and its method of governing is very much like theirs. So the very allies that you need if you're going to enter in an armed conflict are the very ones that the MAGA movement by Donald Trump has alienated. And so that's the other danger that Americans will see if we get into this war and if it becomes protracted, which I think there's a decent chance that it will.

[Alicia Menendez]

I've only got about a minute left, Angela, but I do want you to play out for me. If he is forced to make a decision, if the two weeks isn't just, you know, hoping that this game of chick and pans out in his favor. He is going to disappoint one faction of the MAGA crowd. What then does the narrative become?

[David Frum]

So I think what he'll try to do, it really depends on the last point that Senator Casco made, which is whether or not he tries to sort of stick it through. I mean, we assume he's going to sort of start this conflict and then engage in what is, you know, sort of follow through. And there's a middle step, which is that he drops a bunch of bombs and then runs away and retreats from the Middle east entirely.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right.

[David Frum]

That he tries to give everybody something that they want to say, look, you're right, I did this bad thing, Tucker and Bannon, but guess what else I did? I got us out entirely. I withdrew American power from that region as much as I possibly could. Right. So that's the concern. That, to me is the real big issue here, is that I think if it plays out, what he does do is he tries to give them something, a wink and nod, or if it's not going to be that, he's going to give them something else to pull them back into the fold, which means crackdowns on who they say are their targets, to pull them back in as fast as humanly possible. So that's the real risk. Externalities here are either a dilution of American power or internal punishment of what Bannon and Tucker Carlson see as principal enemies so that they could, you know, seem like they're getting something out of it. But it's a real weakening of the base. And this is an opportunity for Democrats and I hope to be able to identify those fracture points and turn them.

[Alicia Menendez]

Into full blown cracks, especially if they have policy clarity. Angela Carson, thank you so much. Claire McCaskill, as always, thank you. When we come back, agents in tactical gear showing up at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles today with the team publicly telling them they were not allowed in. Jacob Sobroff is there with all the details on this developing story. That's next. Donald Trump's aggressive immigration crackdown is continuing to grip Los Angeles, with ICE rates picking up across the city. And today, ICE agents appeared at Dodgers Stadium. The Dodgers confirmed in a statement that ICE agents came to the stadium and requested permission to access the parking lots, but were denied entry to the grounds by the organization. Their presence comes on the same day that an announcement is expected from the Dodgers on their plans to assist immigrant communities impacted by ICE raids. Now, just in the last hour, DHS released a statement claiming that the agents there were unrelated related to any operation or enforcement. For more on that, let's bring in NBC News correspondent Jacob Sobroff who is outside Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles. Jacob, good to see you. What can you tell us.

[David Frum]

Alicia? It was a very tense scene here earlier at Dodger Stadium and you can see that everybody has sort of dissipated for now. There's a couple of protesters left. In fact, I'll just show you sort of the remnants of the protesters that are here right now. You can see that there's a couple of people still milling about. But what we understand is that there's going to be a Protest again at 7 o' clock Eastern Time tonight here. There's a game between the Dodgers and Padres coming up this evening and the Dodgers have been at the center of this conversation about all of these wide scale immigration enforcement playing out across Los Angeles. You had those agents that were staging here after a series of immigration enforcement raids this morning at Home Depot in Hollywood, reportedly at a Costco in the Los Feliz neighborhood in Paramount, reportedly there are potentially agents that were exercising in immigration enforcement activity even in the Coachella Valley in the desert. There are reports of immigration enforcement today. When I talked to Tom Homan the first Saturday of this immigration enforcement operation, he said we're going to be doing this every day. Some days will be big, some days will be small. This feels like a big day. And to have this all taking place at Dodger Stadium has a particular significance to people here in Los Angeles. The Dodgers have not yet issued the statement that you mentioned about how they're dealing with these ongoing immigration enforcement raids in Los Angeles. Jaime Harin, the legendary Dodgers broadcaster, has spoken out about what's happening in Los Angeles. Kika Hernandez of the Los Angeles Dodgers and it's all, I think going to play out again in front of everybody tonight when the Dodgers face off against the Padres this evening where we expect protesters to show up again. Alicia.

[Alicia Menendez]

So Bruf, you mentioned the significance of Dodgers Stadium. What is that significance?

[David Frum]

Well, when Walter O' Malley brought the Los Angeles Dodgers here in the 1950s, there was a vibrant Latino community in Chavez Ravine. The neighborhood behind me, Palo Verde, Bishop and the Loma were the names of the three neighborhoods. If you haven't read the book called Stealing Home by Eric Nussbaum, it's one of my favorites. It's great. Those communities were forcibly removed, evicted from Dodger Stadium and there has been a love hate relationship. I think it is fair to say with the community here in Los Angeles. The majority of the Dodger fan base today is Latino, as is the population of Los Angeles. But the history of Dodger Stadium is one that is a very painful one for many Latinos in Los Angeles and many people all throughout Los Angeles. So to see this play out here today is a reminder of times past and a reminder of what we've been going through over the course of the last two weeks or so and what might play out in the days and weeks ahead.

[Alicia Menendez]

Let's Alicia, you have raids, it's my understanding, picking up across your city, your sense of the level of fear, of frustration in immigrant communities. Understanding, of course, that immigrant communities are very much interlaced with those of us who have US Citizenship.

[David Frum]

Oh, fear is maximum. Fear is maximum because this has not stopped. And every day in a different corner of Los Angeles, you have seen something take place. Let me just swing the camera around right here, downtown Los Angeles, just so you know, Alicia is right in the distance. It's behind some of these trees, the palm trees right here. But in Chinatown, which is just below us down the street that you're looking at right now, there were raids on some of the first days here in Los Angeles to the other direction this way is Cypress park, where that Home Depot on one of the first days of the raid raids took place. And those and I talked about on this very broadcast, those day laborers were taken from street corners or at least attempted to be taken. And that scene plays out in a different corner of Los Angeles almost on a daily basis. It's a county of 10 million people, over 500 square miles. And it seems like I, I feel like in talking to people on the ground every day, that they feel like ice is everywhere. And that is terrifying. Not just undocumented folks, but mixed status families with children in Los Angeles public schools, mixed status families who have people in their church or in their workplace. Everyone knows somebody who's affected by this here in this city. And the protests, especially on Saturday, that have been largely peaceful, are all about not about Donald Trump, not about anger at the administration. It's like getting ice out of Los Angeles. And everything else comes after that because this affects people's day to day lives.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right now, when you say maximum fear, what I hear is maximum cruelty. And as we both know, that has always been the point Jacob so brought for us in Los Angeles. Jacob, thank you. Up next, we're going to talk with a lawmaker who has tried repeatedly to see the conditions of these detention facilities oversight. He and his Colleagues are legally entitled to have access to. Congressman Jimmy Gomez joins us next. Members of Congress with the authority to be able to conduct unannounced oversight were.

[David Frum]

Taken hold through a hole in a.

[Alicia Menendez]

Gate of barbed wire. Send an email. They don't want us to shine a light on the ways that they're abusing the power of DHS to violate our rights. We're going to continue to show up. We are going to exercise our rights of a democracy because we will continue.

[David Frum]

To fight for the democracy that we.

[Alicia Menendez]

Say we are in the United States of America, not fascism, not authoritarianism. That was Congresswoman Delia Ramirez after she was denied entry to an ICE detention facility just yesterday. Democratic officials conducting oversight at these facilities has been a point of tension between those lawmakers and immigration officials all across this country. And now DHS has issued new guidance making it harder for lawmakers to conduct that oversight. The agency has decided that members of Congress now have to give 72 hours notice before attempting to visit an ICE facility. Joining me now, Congressman Jimmy Gomez, Democrat of California, who represents parts of Los Angeles. So, Congressman, when I have people just show up at my door to my house, I don't have time to clean my house and pretend that I always live in that state. You give me 72 hours, I can present a home to you that looks like Martha Stewart lived there. That's why they're not supposed to have that lead time. Right, because you don't want to give them time to correct their error. So your reaction to this new policy?

[David Frum]

Well, they're breaking the law, plain and simple. The law states that we don't have to give any notice. We can just show up to conduct congressional oversight, especially regarding the conditions of the facility. When if people are getting water, food, medicine, do they have a place to sleep? Do they have their place to eat? Do they have to, do they have a place to use the restroom? That's the stuff that we can do without without notice. But them putting forward that, that new policy, that doesn't mean that they're not in violation of the law. They are definitely in violation of the law. It's plain and simple. And what they're doing is trying to say that they are above the law once again and the American people need to speak up against it.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congressman, I want you to take a listen to Benny Thompson, the ranking Democrat on the Homeland Security Committee. What he said in a statement that the policy is, quote, sorry, that sound you're hearing is the lights coming back up in our studio. This is the, this is a statement From Congressman Thompson, on a front to the Constitution and federal law, this unlawful policy is a smoke screen to deny members visits to ICE offices across the country. If ICE has nothing to hide, DHS must make its facilities available. Your sense of what it is they are, in fact, trying to hide.

[David Frum]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. One, overcrowding. Two, people are not getting access to their attorneys and due process, being forced to sign paperwork for expedited removal. And also the conditions. One of the. I heard a story of a little girl that was picked up with her mom, that she was eating potato chips over for more than a day and drinking just water. Because they don't have, especially at the kind of facilities I visit, they don't have the resources, the access. So we know that they're trying to hide all those abuses. That's why it's important that we can just get in at a moment's notice. And if we give notice, they're going to definitely clean it up. Trying to make it seem like there's not overcrowding. And they're also making up new standards of what type of facility. My. The one I went to, they basically said that it is a field office, so the law doesn't apply. And they said people are not being detained, they're being processed. Well, that's complete bs. We. I asked a very simple question. Are people allowed to leave? No. So you're being detained. And we know that is a big sign outside says detention center, but they're just making up the facts there and, and deliberately lying about what those facts are.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congressman, I think your colleague, Delia Ramirez got it exactly right in those remarks that she gave yesterday, which is this is fundamentally about democracy. I care about immigrants. You care about immigrants. I care about what is happening in these detention facilities. You care. Even if you are an American who is not particularly interested or invested in that piece of things, you should still be hair on fire about the fact that this administration is not allowing members of Congress. Congress to do its job, to conduct oversight. So if you take what is happening around detention facilities and you extrapolate it out, what other forms of oversight are you worried about no longer having access to?

[David Frum]

Well, there's a. There's a lot. One, we know that this president is gutting the federal government without authority. He is. And he's ignoring basically any kind of congressional oversight, any subpoenas. That makes it extremely difficult. We also know when it comes to intel, I'm on the House Intelligence Committee. Our job is to conduct oversight of the intelligence apparatus. I want to make sure that we can continue to do that. So far we can. But what happens if they decide one day, no, we're not going to follow the law or we're not going to respond to any kind of oversight from the Intelligence Committee, then we know what kind of abuses can happen. So this is, this is about our democracy. It means what kind of country we're going to live in. And it's going to say that there is no longer 3 CO equal branches of government, but there's only one branch that matters, that's the president of the United States.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congressman Jimmy Gomez, thank you so much for showing up and for being with us. Up next, just a scratch, Elon Musk describing what happened to his Space X rocket last night over Texas. The latest failure on the billionaire's push to Mars. That's next. Less than a month after his exit from the White House, another Elon Musk venture is up in flames, literally this time after a SpaceX Starship rocket exploded into a massive fireball last night. The explosion took place during preparations for the next launch at the company's base in Texas, apparently experiencing a, quote, major anomalous. According to SpaceX, the company also stated that all personnel were safe, there were no hazards to the residents of nearby communities. This is the fourth time he has lost a starship spacecraft this year, potential setback for his long term goal of getting humans to Mars. But Elon struck a more optimistic tone, writing on social media, quote, just a scratch. Up next, we're going to talk with a former high ranking member of the US Military on the thousands of thousands of American soldiers who could be in harm's way in the Middle East. The next hour of Deadline White House starts right after this quick break.

[David Frum]

Introducing the Weeknight on msnbc. Join hosts Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for a spirited conversation challenging each other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day.

[Alicia Menendez]

It's about knowing what you are for, who you are for.

[David Frum]

That's what politics is about. It's engagement. We are going to dive deeper into the legal side of today's breaking news. The weeknight, Monday through Friday at 7pm Eastern on MSNBC. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows. I do think it's, I think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here, previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail].

[Alicia Menendez]

Based on the fact that there's a substantial chance.

[David Frum]

Of negotiations that may or may not.

[Alicia Menendez]

Take place with Iran in the near future, I will make my decision whether or not to go within the next two weeks.

[David Frum]

That's a quote directly from the president for all of you today.

[Alicia Menendez]

Hi again, everyone. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. And it is five o' clock here in New York. That is where things stand right now. A still open question as to whether the United States will decide to attack Iran, but will apparently find out in the next two weeks. This is a decision with massive global implications that should not be rushed. But that time frame Donald Trump gave, well, it may ring a bell because two weeks has always been a Trump signature. In fact, he has said it 10 times on various topics in just the past two months. He has said it multiple times when it comes to the war in Ukraine, giving Putin two weeks to find a solution to end the war in May. And in April, he said he wants a deal to end the war in Ukraine in, quote, two weeks or less. He said it in regards to tariffs, saying he would inform countries of unilateral tariffs if he was imposing on them in the next two weeks. In 2020, he promised a health care plan to replace the Affordable Care act that would come in, you guessed it, two weeks, a plan that has yet to come. Trump even said it several times back in 2017 on things like the Paris climate accord and an infrastructure deal. As for what they this two week deadline means for Trump's thinking on Iran, we don't truly know. White House press Secretary Carolyn Levitt said, quote, the president's top priority right now is ensuring that Iran cannot obtain a nuclear weapon and providing peace and stability in the Middle East. The Wall Street Journal is reporting, according to three people familiar, that Trump has already told senior aides he approved of plans to attack but is holding off to see if Tehran would abandon its nuclear program. Trump went after that reporting on social media, saying the Journal has no idea what his thoughts are and NBC News has not independently confirmed that reporting. All while European leaders are stressing a diplomatic path forward and the clashes between Israel and Iran have escalated. Israel said it would increase the intensity of attacks after a hospital in the southern part of the country was directly hit by an Iranian missile. That is where we start this hour with New York Times diplomatic correspondent Michael Crowley. Also with us, staff writer at the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic daily newsletter. Tom Nichols, an MSNBC military analyst, retired Lt. Gen. Steph Twitty. He served as deputy commander of U.S. european Command. It is good to see you all. Michael, talk us through your latest reporting. Your sense of the conversations happening inside the White House.

[David Frum]

Well, Alicia, you know, there are so many potential consequences to American involvement in this Israeli campaign that there is, there's just an endless number of things to consider. What's not clear is whether the White House and the State Department and the Pentagon are really running through all the planning that would be required. And what we know right now is that President Trump is doing this Hamlet act. Will he or won't he? As you noted, two weeks has generally been a substitute for I don't want to deal with this right now and just punting it. There have been a lot of smoke signals that he is willing to do it and that there has been planning and preparation for the possibility. But I think the fact that he is holding back, that we're hearing this two week thing maybe gives a strong indication that he understands that this could be extremely complicated. I think there might have been an initial temptation to get in on what looks like a very successful, successful and impressive Israeli military campaign. And so there might be a temptation to say we'll go in and drop a few bombs on Fordeau, take out this one target the Israelis can't do on their own from the air. But I think the more the President talks to people about this, the more he's realizing that this thing could spiral out of control. And I will, you know, I'll just leave it with this last thought. I mean, you can go through all sorts of potential, potential scenarios, including counterattacks on U.S. forces in the region. But you also start talking about the possibility that the Iranian regime totally collapses. And while President Trump has said that he hates this regime and thinks it should be gone, that can get very ugly and messy very quickly in ways that could suck in the United States. So no wonder he's punting. This is what I would say.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tom, do you read it as the punting? What do you think this two week deadline line means?

[David Frum]

It means nothing. I think Michael's absolutely right. Two weeks means I don't know what I'm doing. I, I don't have an answer. And I'm now going, his other expression is he's now going to look at it very strongly. I suspect that it's not just, however, that he realizes it's complicated. I, I, I'M not sure how much he realizes that. I think he realizes how much of his own base would absolutely hate it, even if they publicly would have to go along with it. And I think the other reason you're seeing this is that he wants to do this. I mean, he wants to be a war president. He was thinking about it in his first term. But the way that this whole problem is set up, this isn't the United States leading a coalition to defend the Iranian nuclear program, which, you know, I mean, look, any day that you hurt the Iranian nuclear program is usually a good day. Instead, he's going to be dragged along as kind of a junior partner almost in a war that he didn't start. That's really, at this point, I think, very clearly about regime change. And that's laden with strategic risk, as I'm sure his advisors have told him. But it's also, for him, the thing he cares about so much is that there are huge political risks. And there's one other thing to note in that reporting. It's fascinating that senior aides say that he has told them he's reached a decision. Normally, senior aides are the people in the room when he's making that decision. So what decisions is he making and where that he then has to inform the senior aides who are supposed to be helping him with this? I mean, this is really a mess, at least indicative of a mess inside the White.

[Alicia Menendez]

What decisions? Where is he making them? General Twitty, if you were in the Situation Room with this president, what is it that you would be impressing upon him?

[David Frum]

Yeah, first. First of all, the diplomatic effort needs to go before the military effort. So I agree. I sort of like the idea the two. Two weeks. It gives the opportunity for us to exhaust the diplomatic effort before we introduce the military instrument of power. And I think that's what he's thinking. You got to think about this. This is a complex mission. First of all, we have 40,000 U.S. service members in the region that you would be putting in harm's way. Secondly, this could end up being a protracted war. We don't know whether the regime will collapse and we will own that if we get involved military. The third piece is the Iranians can close the strait of hormones, and then you start impacting the global economy. The fourth thing is our relationship with the Arab community. We want to make sure that we do everything that we can to communicate them. And so there's a lot at stake here. And so I like the fact that we're waiting. Let's get the diplomatic effort going. Let's see whether the Iranians will come to their siblings census and then after two weeks, then the president has options.

[Alicia Menendez]

Can you just talk me through, General Twitty, how long it takes to put a mission like attacking Iran together? I mean, I know we don't have sort of the full context of what it is they're considering, but we do have pieces of information. Functionally, what does that require?

[David Frum]

Yeah, this is a hugely complex mission and I will tell you you that intelligence, in this case here, watching Iran and their nuclear capabilities. We've been gathering intelligence on the Iranians in conjunction with the Israelis for quite some time. So we have pretty good intelligence. We have pretty good intelligence on Ford L it used to be a former IGRC base. So we pretty much know what that looks like. Like in addition, we sort of understand from a ground capability what's required to actually get the the bunker busters in in order to pull off this mission. To do this mission. You go ahead.

[Alicia Menendez]

No, you sir, please.

[David Frum]

Yeah, to do this mission. Of course you heard a lot of talk about our B2 bombers. That wouldn't be the only thing. They would be complimented by fighter jets, also air refuel capability, also our AWACS capability that gives us an airborne command and control platform and some other exquisite intelligence capabilities in support of that mission. It would be a quick strike reassess, maybe a re attack if we didn't quite get it right. We don't have to really penetrate 300ft down, but if we can penetrate enough to close the entry and exit door wars to seal off the nuclear product, then I would say mission complete strike, get out. Don't try and execute regime change. We know that particularly in my experience in Iraq, those things do not work. Let's leave that to the Iranian people to decide their fate. But that's the way I would go about the missions.

[Alicia Menendez]

So Michael Crowley. I asked the General to lay out what this would all require in light of the fact that there is new reporting in the Washington Post revealing who the key decision makers are in the White House and who is not notably Pete Hegseth. This is according to the Post. Trump has instead turned to a small group of lower key, more experienced aides. These people said the Tier 1 group on a potential US strike on Iran is composed of Vice President J.D. vance, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dan Kaine, Secretary of State Marco Rubio and CIA Director John Radcliffe. That's according to an outside White House adviser who like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity. Michael Crowley, the fact that you do not have the Defense Secretary at the table for these conversations, I wonder, just based on your own reporting, if that surprises you at all, but also what it indicates to you.

[David Frum]

Well, look, as you recall, when Pete Hegseth was going through his confirmation process, there were countless allegations against him about his personal behavior. And to some degree they swamped what many people argued was the more important question about his qualification for the job, which was his, I mean, his dramatic lack of experience compared to all of his predecessors. And to the degree he had a managerial record at all, it was a very limited one. And there were lots of complaints about his ability to manage even a fairly small organization. And I'm not even referring to the issues of personal conduct. So Pete Hegseth has served in the military and everyone respects that, but that just is not a substitute for the years of hard nosed work on policy and the incredible massive logistics of the Department of Defense and, and the process of formulating national security. So in that context, it's not so surprising. And by the way, another person who's not on that list is Tulsi Gabbard, who is the Director of National Intelligence. And as this drama plays out, that is an interesting subplot, not the most important one, but she is the top official in the intelligence community. She actually outranks the CIA director in the sort of command chain of the intel community. And as we all know, her political identity is really rooted in isolationism or at least non interventionism and strong criticisms of American involvement, particularly in the Middle east and particularly in military campaigns that have the ability to knock out foreign governments. Let me just make one last point and I'll stop, which is the general made an excellent, described in excellence, excellent succinct terms what a strike on Fordo would look like and how you might potentially be able to do it pretty cleanly and get out. And I know he knows also because he alluded to this, but I just want to underscore that it's not as simple as that, because what is likely to happen is that the Iranians will then counter strike against some of those 40,000 U.S. personnel that the general mentioned are in the region. And then the question is, well, okay, President Trump, what are you gonna do about that? And that's where things can start to spiral out of control. So I understand the general knows this, but I just want to underscore for viewers that although the strike on this one nuclear facility might be a pretty clean operation, the story doesn't end there. And that's why this is a really fraught decision the President is facing.

[Alicia Menendez]

General, can you just pick up on where Michael left off the risk to American service members in a Michelin like this?

[David Frum]

Absolutely. A risk. Something that we have not talked about is, you know, there's still proxies out there and I know some of them have been wounded and defeated, such as Hezbollah and also Hamas, but they have plenty of lone wolves that could strike US Forces as well. You have Katab Hezbollah in Iraq and Syria that could strike, you have a Houthis, these that are down in Yemen that could also strike our ships and in the Med, and, and also strike from Yemen into the region. And so there are plenty of risks that must be considered here.

[Alicia Menendez]

Let's add to that risk, Tom. Potential economic consequences. This is separate reporting that says Iran retains the naval assets and other capabilities it would need, need to shut down the Strait of Hormuz, which is such an important trade route. A quarter of the world's oil and 20% of the world's liquefied natural gas passes through it. So mining, the choke point, would cause gas prices to soar. Just I think there are folks who watch and say, well, what does this all mean for me, right? What does this decision, what are the implications of this decision that the President says he's taking, taking two weeks to decide upon?

[David Frum]

I think Americans have always had a hard time drawing a link between the stability of the international environment and their day to day standard of living. You know, the way I sometimes try to get it across to people is to say, imagine all of the supply chain problems you lived through during the pandemic and then living through them. When enemies around the world inflict those on you just because they care, can not because there's a pandemic just as a matter of policy, but it could, I think, you know, the economic question, it's a really important question, but I think we shouldn't get too far away from something. We always told people when I taught at a war college that if you're going to attack the enemy, gets a vote and go. And I want to go back to those threats to, you know, American forces and American service people that's going to put, if you want to know how it's going to affect the average American, there are people, there are Americans that could get killed in that. This, that doesn't mean it's not, you know, if, if you really determined to take out the Iranian nuclear capability, you know, forever or for a long time, that's a really you know, I think General Twitty's made that point really well. It's a really complicated plan. But the Iranians are not potted plants. They're not just going to sit there and say, wow, that was a really good operation. I guess it's over. And I think nobody's really thinking this through in the White House. The President is saying, threatening the Supreme Leader. He's calling Frank unconditional surrender. There's all this stuff coming out of the White House. And I just want to underscore this problem of you can't pull this off when you don't have a functioning Secretary of Defense and a functioning intelligence community. And these are really important institutions. And even under the best circumstances, with a fully functional White House, with people who know what they're doing, this would be an incredibly fraught operation. But when you have this group that, you know, again, seems to be in such disarray, that makes this a tremendously dangerous thing to do.

[Alicia Menendez]

And it's part of why, just for full context, why I bring up the economic consequences, because I understand that this is a president who has so many inputs and so many people in his ear. So in addition to the list I read to you of the Vice President, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of State, the CIA director, we know he's having lunch with Mark Levin. He's watching Fox News. He's hearing Bannon tell him about how the best path forward is isolationism. So I think part of where we all feel a little in the dark, even in light of all of this excellent reporting, is who truly has his ear? Is it the person he spoke with last and given sort of the weight and gravity of this decision, which of those inputs is likely to factor in most significantly?

[David Frum]

Yeah, the problem is the president's brain trust tends to be people he's seen on tv. You know, this is not a time. This is really a time to have people who know a lot about Iran, who know a lot about war, who know a lot about air campaigns and a lot about international diplomacy. Because the other person we've kind of walked past here is Marco Rubio, who is the Secretary of State and also, for some reason, is the National Security Security Advisor. Where is the National Security Council? What kind of advice would he be getting if we had a functioning National Security Council? So I think, you know, I just want to emphasize your point, Alicia. You know, that this is. I mean, if you're getting your. Your advice on this from Fox hosts and angry podcasters, you know, are they. Can the American people really be comfortable with that when these operations could put a lot of American lives in jail. Jeopardy.

[Alicia Menendez]

Michael CROWLEY, Tom Nichols, Lt. Gen. Steph, Twitter, you have all done such a remarkable job of laying out the consequences before us. Thank you so much for your time. When we return, another sign the business world is not on board with Donald Trump, the nation's CEO with their gloomiest economic outlook since the pandemic. And it's Trump's chaos and uncertainty over tariffs that is to blame. That story is next. And later for us Today, it is Juneteenth, the celebration of the freeing of the last enslaved people in our country. But with freedoms under assault now by the Trump administration, why some people are saying it is harder to get in the spirit this year. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us. Another troubling low watermark this afternoon for the American economy. This time it has to do with how top CEOs in this country feel about where the economy is, is headed and their outlook. It is not pretty. The data is from a new survey conducted by the Business Roundtable and shared with Axios. In short, quote, chief executives have not been this sour on the economy since the once in a century pandemic with significant downgrading expectations for hiring, investment and sales growth. And there's reason, according to the Business Roundtable CEO, broad based uncertainty arising substantially from an unpredictable trade trade policy environment. Perhaps swept up in that chaos today, Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, a near constant Trump target. The Fed's decision yesterday to not lower interest rates sparked Trump's latest multimedia tirade, one that extended overnight. Just this morning, Trump spent time on social media calling Powell names. Stuff like too late, dumb, destructive and American disgrace. Go figure. Joining us now, former special assistant to President Biden for economic development at the White House White House National Economic Council, Alex Walkez. Also with us, MSNBC columnist and political analyst Charlie Sykes and Washington Post opinion columnist and co host of the weekend primetime right here on msnbc, Katherine Rampel. Alex, such a chaotic environment. It cannot be good for the economy as a whole.

[David Frum]

That's right. And you've used the word. And I'm sure every guest you've had on to talk about it has used the word uncertainty. It's what the Fed and Jay Powell are looking at. It's what CEOs are looking at and it's what consumers are looking at. Looking at. If you don't know what your costs are going to be next month, next week or next year, it's going to be impossible for businesses to make the capital Expenditures that they need to, say, expand a factory or hire more workers. It's going to be hard for consumers to make big ticket purchases like cars and like houses. And we've seen it in the sentiment. CEOs are concerned, consumers are concerned, and businesses, they're not hiring, they're not investing, they don't know what trade policy is going to be just tomorrow when they wake up. And so this is not a good time, not a good climate to do business. And you saw that in Chair Powell's speech on, on Wednesday. He just noted the uncertainty of the policy environment right now, making it very difficult for the Federal Reserve to do its job.

[Alicia Menendez]

Katherine Rappel, I just want to underscore something. The uncertainty is a chance. This administration is making a decision to shape their policy around uncertainty.

[David Frum]

Yes. And it's not only about trade. A lot of the big sources of uncertainty are about trade. How much will goods cost? Can businesses front, load inventory if they try to purchase stuff now, will it get in at the wrong time and their costs will go way up, et cetera. But it's not only about that. There's also the degradation of rule of law, which, yes, does affect the business of environment. If Trump decides that some company is in his crosshairs, that potentially affects the fortunes of that company, of its shareholders, of its employees. We saw this obviously with Tesla, but a lot of other firms as well. There's also a lot of uncertainty about the labor force because of immigration. Lots of major industries are highly dependent on immigrant workers, not only undocumented workers, but people who are here legally as well. Well, who have been effectively stripped of their legal documentation and work permits, effectively de documented. And so what does that mean for farmers, what does that mean for restaurant owners, for construction managers, et cetera? So there's a lot of uncertainty across the board. And Trump goes back and forth and back and forth about whether he's going to escalate ICE raids or moderate them, whether he's going to cut tariffs or potentially, you know, jack them up. None of those things make it easier for companies to decide to make any decisions, for that matter.

[Alicia Menendez]

Yeah. And it's interesting to think about his Secretary of Agriculture being like, I am on the phone with business leaders and they are telling me that this is not sustainable and for a few minutes it works. And then all of a sudden, the nativists take the wheel. Charlie, I want to get back to that data from the Business Roundtable. This is from Axiom CEO's quote, the employment sub index plummeted by almost 19 points with more than 40% of CEOs expecting to shrink their workforces in the next six months, up from the roughly 30% who stayed the same last quarter. In other words, Charlie, sort of a broadening expectation that hiring could take a hit. I mean, how can you let that sink in with the general public, especially given that this is a president that ran on the idea of being able to improve the economy.

[David Frum]

Yeah, look, they're going to live through it. That's how it's going to be communicated. And Catherine ran through all of the elements of the uncertainty. It is not just the uncertainty of the terrorists, not just the chaos. It's the real instability. And I want to put it also in the context of your last segment, which is what might be happening in the Middle east that adds to that sense of unpredictability and instability of the Straits of Hormuz, for example, were shut down. So you have the uncertainty of the tariffs. You have his ongoing attacks on the Fed. What happens if he fires Jerome Powell? What happens if, in fact, immigration begins to affect the labor market? What happens if there is a war in the Middle East? We don't know any of those things. What we do know is that this is an economy that is run by whim, which means, and Catherine made This point, the CEOs are dealing with an environment in which they can't count on either the rule of law or the stability of the marketplace. Because Donald Trump rules by fear or favor. If they do something that angers him, they could be punished. If one of their competitors does something to suck up to him, they might have an advantage. And I will say, because everything is, you know, goes on in Donald Trump's head, what if he does, if he does back off on bombing Iran, will he feel therefore, because people will say that he was, look, look weak. Will he feel that he has to become more aggressive in some other area on tariffs? We just do not know, which is why so much of the economy feels like it's paralyzed.

[Alicia Menendez]

Alex, I want you to take a look. I hear Charlie's point about the American people are sort of going to need to live through this economy in order to really understand this economy. It seems as though, Alex, they are already living through it and they are already understanding. This is new polling from Fox News. 84% of registered voters are extremely or very concerned about inflation. 68% score conditions as only fair or poor, and 55% feel pessimistic about the economy. Can you talk to me, Alex, having served at the White House National Economic Council, about the feedback loop, the extent to which you keep your eyes on those polls and consider economic decisions in light of. Of public opinion.

[David Frum]

Absolutely. So we keep very close track of the hard data. That's the jobs report, the cpi, the core inflation readings. But we also keep an eye on the survey data, the soft data, consumer sentiment numbers, those CEO business sentiment numbers, and public polling about what voters are interested in, what they are focused on and how they are feeling. And I think that this time around, it was not like this. In Trump's first term, we saw his overall approval sink below his economic approval ratings, and his economic approval ratings were above 50% for a good part of his first term. It is exactly the opposite now. He's getting his worst marks on the economy and his worst marks on inflation and the cost of living. And I believe that is because if you look at every single poll, what voters have told us is that their number one one concern is the cost of living. And to a te, you know, voters do not believe that that is an issue that President Trump is focused on. And in the White House, you know, it drives, I will say, new segments just like this where we're talking about these numbers. It gets into the ecosystem, it gets into local reporting. I can't tell you how many local news stories I've heard about small business owners who are going to be impacted by Trump's tariffs. It just continues to do to feed into a narrative that the economy is not doing well. But, you know, it's not. It's not made up on its own. These are real people's concerns. They are already starting to see price hikes, companies announcing increased prices. They are sick and tired of paying higher prices. That's what voters keep telling us. They pulled the lever for Donald Trump to address the cost of living and to bring prices down, as he said on day one. And they simply haven't come.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, Charlie, they're not just saying that to Alex. This is more from that Fox poll and Trump's approval on the economy. He is 18 points underwater on inflation. He's 30 points down. Overall, 57% of registered voters think tariffs hurt the economy. So folks are following along here, Charlie. They are understanding who has responsibility for what it is that they are watching. Is there someone inside the White House who understands the political costs of not simply the choices the president's making?

[David Frum]

Right.

[Alicia Menendez]

There's one thing to sort of buy into his idea of tariffs and reestablishing the global trade order. It's another thing to do that and then not do that. And Then do that and not do that. And create instability by not at least sticking to your own ideas.

[David Frum]

Yeah. These are truly horrific numbers, especially because the economy was such a huge issue for Donald Trump. Look, I mean, Donald Trump's appeal last year was basically, I can make you more prosperous and I can make you safer. The chaos and the uncertainty in the economy goes right to his core appeal to the electorate. I'm afraid we use the term cognitive dissonance, or I use it too often, but for Donald Trump, he understands these numbers. Donald Trump and the people around him understand these numbers. This is not where he wants to be in public opinion, but the cognitive dissonance is also that he's got this fetish for tariffs. He can't let it go. This is the closest thing that the President has to a core value. He doesn't have any core principles, but he has been talking about fetish. He's been. He's been talking about tariffs for decades. So on the one hand he sees these numbers, but on the other hand, it's very difficult to imagine that he's going to give up on something that, frankly, is the one thing that I think that he is utterly, sort of viscerally and chemically committed to. So these numbers are horrifically bad. They'd be bad for any president, but especially bad for a president whose supporters said, well, I'm gonna put up with a lot of this other crap, but at least my 401k is gonna be great. He loses that. He loses a lot.

[Alicia Menendez]

All right, Charlie, Alex, Catherine, you are all sticking with us. We need to fit in a very short break, and we'll be right back. We're back with Alex Hawkes, Charlie Sykes, and Katherine Rampel. Did it surprise you at all, Catherine, that given those poll numbers, Donald Trump decided to take his frustration out on Jerome Powell?

[David Frum]

No. He has been attacking Jerome Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, for many, many years, including during his first term. Trump elevated. Elevated Powell to the Fed chair during Trump's first term, and then turned around and referred to Powell as the enemy of the people, or a greater enemy of the United States than even Xi Jinping, the leader of China. So Trump has been mad at Jerome Powell for many, many years because Powell is a professional. He is politically independent. He has all of the things that someone in that job is supposed to be. And. And for my money, I think that he's one of the unsung heroes of the past few years, the Fed in general, because they got us so close to the coveted soft landing. Right. We had this elevated inflation. They waited a little bit too long, I think, to raise rates initially, but then managed to get inflation heading downward, heading downward, heading downward without disrupting the labor market and get us so close to this soft landing. And then, as one economist put it recently, Trump decided to flip over the plane. So that's, that's basically the situation that we're in. And Trump has made the Fed's job so much harder as well, because tariffs are almost uniquely bad for all of the things that the Federal Reserve does. Right. The Federal Reserve has two mandates. One is to get price stability, and the other is to get maximum employment. Right. So you want basically low inflation and a lot of jobs. Tariffs make both of those objectives a lot, a lot harder by raising prices and slowing the economy. And we were talking earlier about whether or not Trump will fire Jerome Powell. The Supreme Court has essentially said that he can't already. But remember, Powell's term ends quite soon, and Trump is on the verge of appointing his replacement. So the real question is, who will be that replacement? Will the Senate confirm that person? Will that person be another professional or for that matter, a hack? Because some of the people that Trump wanted last time around, after he decided he was really mad at Jay Powell, turned out to be not exactly the most professional or intelligent people to take over other roles on the Fed. And in the meantime, will there be this sort of a shadow Fed chair that markets will be paying attention to to and saying, we don't care what Powell and the current Federal Reserve members actually do. Right now, we should be looking to that forward guidance from the next person who's coming up who might be a lot more willing to placate Trump.

[Alicia Menendez]

Alex, everyone at Fox Business just dusting up that old resume. I want you to take a listen to what Jerome Powell had to say. Let's play that sound.

[David Frum]

Your friend down at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue continues to lob insults in your direction. Whether this is just noise that the markets and everybody should ignore until your term is up, or whether you worry that it could lead to more pressure on confidence on Wall street, on consumers, about the outlook for the economy. From my standpoint, it's not complicated. What everyone on the FOMC wants is a good, solid American economy with strong labor market and price stability. That's what we want. We think our policy is well positioned to right now to deliver that and, and to be able to respond in timely way as the data lead us around. The economy has been resilient. And part of that is our stance. And again, we think we're, we're in a good place on that to respond to significant economic developments. That's what matters. That is what matters to us. Pretty much. That's all that matters to us.

[Alicia Menendez]

Okay. If that clarity, if that sense of purpose, if that apolitical worldview goes away, and in its place, Donald Trump decides to replace Rome Powell with, to use Catherine Powell's word, a hack, what then happens to America's economy?

[David Frum]

Look, you need confidence in the Fed. You need the markets to believe that the Fed is acting independently, that they are not being politically pressed, pressured, and that they are, as Chair Powell says, following the data, where it goes. And I think that was an artful job by the chair who's had much practice at this about dodging. The real question here, which gets back to a little bit about we talked about right before the break, which is about the impact on the economy of, you know, Trump's disregard for rules of law and institutions. My good friend, former colleague Gene Steven Sperling had a great op ed in the Washington Post talking about the threat that, you know, Trump's attacks on the rule of law and on institutions and norms has on the economy. Shaking bond investors confidence, shaking the market's confidence, really. You know, right now, the United States, we have the reserve currency in the dollar. We are a market leader and a market maker. Across the globe. Other economies look to us and our economic policies to lead. We are, of course, a large market and economy in our own right, and we are starting to see a little bit of shakiness in those foundations. We are hearing, you know, both anecdotally, but, you know, reporters are saying, and businesses are saying that exporters from other countries are asking to settle in currencies that aren't the dollar. They're not confident right now that the United States and Trump's stewardship of the economy is sound for, for the global economy and global stability right now.

[Alicia Menendez]

Alex Saquez, Charlie Sykes and Katherine Rampel, thank you all so much for being with us. When we return, today is Juneteenth. But the celebrations may be a bit muted as the Trump administration is working to remove rights and freedoms for all American people. That conversation is next. Juneteenth Celebrations today are happening across the country, commemorating the day in 1865 when US army troops arrived in Galveston, Texas, to inform some of the last enslaved Americans that they were free. But less than five years after it became a federally recognized holiday, celebrations are tempered not only by the Trump administration's attacks on diversity, equity and inclusion programs, but also the faithful telling of American history, as Donny Rose writes for msnbc.com, quote When I think about how our ancestors would just have assumed their bondage was still intact had they not learned of their freedom on June 19, 1865, I can't help but think about how the toll of miseducation can be a modern form of captivity for a people deprived of the fullness of their story and how oppressive it is for the White House to work to ensure that their knowledge of self remains hidden. Joining me now, Michael Eric Dyson. He is a distinguished professor of African American and Diaspora Diaspora Studies at Vanderbilt University and co author of Unequal. Michael, thank you so much for being with us.

[David Frum]

It is.

[Alicia Menendez]

Juneteenth, how does it feel to you this year?

[David Frum]

Well, as you've already indicated, there's a bit of disconsolation, of great disconcert because of the practices of an administration that is singularly focused, focused on eradicating every trace of black history in America, of eviscerating the trace and the track of our story and trying to politically impose narrow constraints on the telling of that story, firing museum heads, getting rid of qualified black people and competent executives who are in place to make sure that they are guardians of that story, story, the American story. And unfortunately and tragically, this administration has taken unto itself the purpose of destroying dei, not understanding what dei. Without diversity, equity and inclusion, America couldn't be what it is today. We couldn't enjoy the privileges, the rights and the gifts of so many other people beyond straight white men were it not for efforts to make sure this country was equal and fair. So Juneteenth is a bit muted, but again, we again, that's what the purpose is. Right. The delay of justice for African American people is symptomatic of an American disposition that we have to continually deal with. So in one sense, we're not surprised, even though we're disappointed.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, there's a delay and then there's the sort of step back that we're seeing. Michael. So you had the president telling soldiers at Fort Bragg last week that he was restoring the names of seven army army bases that once honored Confederate leaders, choosing to venerate the most shameful parts of American history while taking a sledgehammer to anything that can be considered dei. I mean, what does that tell you about where this administration's priority is and the the America that they envision for us all?

[David Frum]

Well, it's a Confederate America. It's an America that on that day where where those American citizens chose to undermine this government and commit a kind of fraud which has been called a kind of insurrection. They drug that Confederate flag there and this president is legitimating and validating the impulse of traitors to the American spirit of the American democracy as the legitimate bearers of that future and denying access and privilege, privilege to those African American people who made America what it is today. This is by definition racist. When you automatically see a black name, person or position and you get rid of it under the rubric of anti dei, what you are is actually anti, in this case, black. And you're definitely a racist because you don't waive the evidence, you don't judge what's going on on to determine whether there is competency or not. And out of the fullness of a white mediocrity that has been sanctified in every position of American administration now under this particular president, this is what we're confronting. The viciousness of white mediocrity against the traditions of black excellence. And yet that white mediocrity possesses the power.

[Alicia Menendez]

I have less than a minute left in the shadow of that profound revelation. The fact though that you have corporations, this is new reporting, just not wanting to engage in dei. Right. It's one thing for this administration to have their policies. It is another thing for everyone to bend the knee in advance.

[David Frum]

Yeah, well, this is what shows us white liberals are just as guilty as the right wing conservative. That is explicitly racist. White liberals are too eager to step back, to not step up, to not fight, to not insist that this be the way of American society that is embracing difference and diversity and inclusion, whether it's about sexuality or race or gender or class. And so we beg our brothers and sisters across the board to get on board and defend what they know is a good practice.

[Alicia Menendez]

No days off from Michael. Eric Dyson. Sarah, thank you so much for being with us. We're going to sneak in a quick break, then we're going to be right back. Some heartwarming images of Israeli American hostage Don Alexander finally returning home to New Jersey just a few hours ago, more than 600 days after he was taken hostage by hamas in the October 7th attack. Well wishers lined the streets to celebrate his return to Tenafly, where Alexander went to high school before moving to Israel and serving in the Israeli military. He is believed to be the last living US Citizen held hostage in Gaza. His family's rabbi told CBS New York, quote, this is our brother. Our son returns home and our hearts are full of joy and happiness. There's only one word. It's a miracle of God. Another break for us. We're going to be right back. A quick reminder, you can catch Nicole's conversation with NBA great Doc Rivers on the Best People podcast. Scan the QR code on your screen right there to watch the whole interview on YouTube. Thank you for spending part of this Thursday with us. We are so grateful.

[David Frum]

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