“Kristi Noem fired from DHS”

Summary

Deadline: White House — “Kristi Noem Fired from DHS” (March 5, 2026) Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guests: Michele Norris, Miles Taylor, Vaughn Hilliard, Frank Kendall, Senator Alex Padilla

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the sudden firing of Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem by President Donald Trump, exploring the messy legacy of her tenure and the political backdrop. The discussion covers the controversial war in Iran, Trump's sagging poll numbers—particularly on immigration—and ongoing issues like the fallout from the Epstein files and aggressive deportation tactics. With insight from reporters and former officials, the hour unravels whether Noem’s ouster signals a course correction, a distraction, or just another phase in the administration's turbulence.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The News: Kristi Noem Fired from DHS

• Announcement Details: Trump announced Noem's firing on Truth Social, simultaneously inventing a new title for her (“Special Envoy to the Shield of the Americas”), a move widely seen as offering her a face-saving exit ([01:06]).
• Companion Firing: DHS official Corey Lewandowski was also ousted.
• Awkward Timing: Noem was speaking to law enforcement, seemingly unaware that she’d been fired, discussing future plans as DHS secretary ([01:49]).

2. Legacy of Kristi Noem at DHS

• Defining Features:
  • Mass Deportation Campaign: Described as “ghoulish and intentionally cruel,” leading to the deaths of at least two U.S. citizens and the fracturing of countless families ([02:31]).
  • Lawlessness: DHS under Noem ignored over 100 court orders ([02:56]).
  • Credibility Crisis: Trump's immigration approval plummeted, with polls showing half of Americans favoring abolishing DHS ([03:18]).
  • Gaslighting after Killings: Noem falsely characterized the deaths of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Goode as terrorism ([03:47]), later proven untrue.

3. The Role of Media, Propaganda, and the $220 Million Ad Scandal

• Controversial Ad Blitz: Noem fronted a taxpayer-funded ad campaign promoting her own image, claiming Trump personally approved it, while he denied any involvement shortly before firing her ([04:26]).
• Political Fallout: The ad scandal was a tipping point for the administration, though not the sole reason for her dismissal.

4. Departmental Turmoil and Implications for Successor

• Morale and Infrastructure: Massive morale and infrastructure problems plague DHS ([06:17]). Inspector General letters to Congress outlined dysfunction and lawlessness.
• Successor Apprehension: Markwayne Mullin (Oklahoma Senator, ex-MMA fighter) is Trump’s pick for DHS secretary, raising concerns about his qualifications ([05:54]).
• Senate Hearing Prospects: Mullin’s lack of experience and antagonism with figures like Rand Paul may complicate his confirmation ([25:20]).

5. Internal and External Critiques

• Senator Thom Tillis’ Rebuke: Brought up Noem’s personal conduct, referencing her book's description of killing pets and equating it with her leadership failures ([11:03]).
• Democratic Perspective: Senator Alex Padilla discussed being forcibly removed from a Noem press event and drew the link between such treatment of officials and the likely worse treatment of immigrants ([14:32]).

6. Broader Political Context: War in Iran & Trump's Polls

• War as Backdrop: Discussion of the Iran war interweaves with the DHS crisis, suggesting both function as distractions from larger failures (Epstein files, poll numbers) ([01:06], [27:47]).
• Trump’s Motivations: Speculation that firings and new appointments serve more to insulate Trump politically than to fix systemic issues ([15:24], [31:15]).

7. The Cost of Political Turmoil: Soldiers’ Lives & Public Accountability

• Honoring the Fallen: Emotional segment honoring U.S. service members killed in Iran ([35:47]), contrasted with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s dismissive response to media coverage of these losses ([35:18]).
• Reflection: Frank Kendall emphasizes the gravity of sending Americans into combat, criticizing leadership for downplaying sacrifice (“If our leadership doesn’t understand that, doesn’t appreciate that, and isn’t sensitive to it, they shouldn’t be leading us.” – [38:47]).

8. Ongoing Dysfunction at DHS and National Security Risks

• Department Shutdown: DHS remains technically unfunded, with staff departing or furloughed and no clear operational continuity ([28:28]).
• Security Implications: The firing spree leaves the U.S. “exposed” amidst international conflict, with no clear direction for real threats vs. political crackdowns ([27:47]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Gaslighting over Civilian Deaths

• Noem’s False Statement ([03:47]):

  “An officer of ours acted quickly and defensively, shot to protect himself and the people around him. This individual … committed an act of domestic terrorism. That's the facts.”
  (Kristi Noem, later proven false)

Critique from Within the GOP

• Senator Tillis Confronts Noem in Senate Hearing ([11:03]):

  “You decided to kill that dog because you had not invested the appropriate time in training … And then you have the audacity to go into a book and say it’s a leadership lesson about tough choices.”

On the Transformation of DHS

• Miles Taylor on DHS’s New Mandate ([13:00]):

  “Her legacy … is taking [DHS] from a place that was built to defend against Al Qaeda … to going after Americans under the banner of antifa. … She has become the warden of the police state.”

Insider Account of Trump’s Management

• Taylor Explaining the “Buy-Off” of Ousted Officials ([31:15]):

  “[Trump] wants to give her some sort of title and off ramp and … pay as a way to literally buy her off … because he's worried they’ll go write a book … or undercut him. This is how a mob boss operates.”

On the War in Iran and Its Costs

• Frank Kendall on Leadership Accountability ([38:47]):

  “If our leadership doesn’t understand that, doesn’t appreciate that, and isn’t sensitive to it, they shouldn’t be leading us.”

The Stakes for DHS’s Next Leader

• Michele Norris on Confirmation Process ([24:11]):

  “This is too serious for them to just pass [Markwayne] Mullin through because he is a colleague of theirs and because he's loyal to Donald Trump. There simply is too much at stake right now.”

---

Important Timestamps

• 01:06 — Noem’s firing announced; question of political distraction raised
• 03:47 — Noem’s misleading statement on civilian fatalities
• 06:17 — Norris describes chaos and credibility crisis at DHS
• 11:03 — Senator Tillis rebukes Noem for her “leadership lessons” in animal killings
• 13:00 — Taylor on DHS’s shift toward political policing
• 15:24 — Senator Padilla provides personal account of Noem’s treatment of elected officials and the broader consequences
• 31:15 — Taylor explains the pattern of offering “consolation” titles to fired Trump officials
• 35:18 — Pete Hegseth’s remarks downplaying the reporting of U.S. soldier deaths
• 38:47 — Frank Kendall’s reflection on the gravity of military loss and the amateurish handling of war

---

Takeaways

• Kristi Noem’s firing is emblematic of a broader crisis in Trump’s administration, reflecting failures of policy, leadership, and communication—especially at DHS.
• DHS’s legacy under Noem is profoundly negative: mass deportations, disregard for the law, propaganda campaigns, and a dramatic loss of institutional credibility.
• Appointing Senator Markwayne Mullin as DHS Secretary is widely questioned, with doubts about his experience and hints that his selection is motivated by loyalty rather than competence.
• Political distractions and shifting narratives (war in Iran, Epstein files, ad scandals) point to a White House in damage-control mode, trying desperately to control public opinion against a backdrop of plummeting approval ratings.
• National security is at risk as leadership churn, internal dysfunction, and ill-considered war expand the sense of chaos.
• The human costs of leadership failure — both among American citizens harmed by policy and military families whose losses are minimized by officials — are explored, grounding the debate in real consequences.

---

For listeners seeking clarity on why Kristi Noem fell from favor, the state of DHS, and what’s next as the administration reels, this episode delivers unflinching analysis and hard-hitting insight from reporters, public officials, and former national security leaders.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

Cash now, more later From Opendoor gives you cash up front for your home plus all the profit later. That's no chaos now. No cash left behind later. Skip the showings now. Pocket extra profit later. This is so simple now. This is so awesome later. Or sell fast now and pop the champagne later. Cash now, more later. Now available nationwide. Start your [e-mail] radio profits calculated after fees and costs. Eligibility and offer price may vary. If you're looking for new ways to get ahead, then you're our kind of person. We're Udemy and we help learners like you upskill in AI, productivity, leadership and management and more. Learn at your own pace from real world experts. You can also prep for certifications that show employers what you know upskill for the career you [e-mail] now back to your regularly scheduled listening.

[Host/Moderator]

Hi there everybody. Four o' clock in New York. So there are two theories for what's happening today. Either DHS Secretary Kristi Noem is so bad at her job that even Donald TRUMP Donald Trump 2.0 said you're fired. Or or her firing could be a distraction from the increasingly unpopular and controversial war in Iran, which, come to think of it, could have been an effort to distract from the disastrous and bungled cover up of the Epstein files. Their partial release might have actually been a distraction from the cruel and deeply unpopular conduct of federal agents on the streets of Minneapolis, carrying out Donald Trump's mass deportation campaign and killing two US Citizens in the process. Now, whether Trump's distracting from a distraction that was a distraction of an unpopular distraction, we'll let you decide. But here's the news. Kristi Noem has been fired from her position as the country's Secretary of Homeland Security. In tried and true Trumpian fashion, Donald Trump announced her firing on Truth Social, adding that she's been appointed Special envoy to the Shield of the Americas, a position no one had heard of until a couple hours ago. Corey Lewandowski is also out at dhs. As news of her firing was breaking, Kristi Noem was speaking. There she is. She was speaking to law enforcement and it wasn't clear at all if she knew she'd been fired as while she was talking, she talked about meetings she was going to have in the coming days as DHS secretary. Awkward now. Regardless, her tenure at DHS will be remembered until the end of time. It was defined by the mass deportation program that was built to be ghoulish and intentionally cruel and to market those aspects of it. It led to the deaths of at Least two Americans ripped apart countless families and seemed to revel in doing so. It was also defined by lawlessness. Under Kristi Noem's leadership, Noem and her department defied more than 100 court orders. They defied judges more than 100 times under her tenure. Donald Trump's approval rating cratered on the issue of immigration, once considered one of his strongest policy issues, propelling him to the presidency. Two times today, a poll showed that half of Americans support abolishing the department she ran. Kristi Noem was also the tip of the spear in the gaslighting of all Americans about the deaths of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Goode. Here's a reminder of what Kristi Noem said immediately after their killings.

[Michele Norris]

It was an act of domestic terrorism. What happened was our ICE officers were out in enforcement action. They got stuck in the snow because of the adverse weather that is in Minneapolis. They were attempting to push out their vehicle and a woman attacked them and those surrounding them and attempted to run

[Host/Moderator]

them over and ram them with her vehicle.

[Michele Norris]

An officer of ours acted quickly and defensively, shot to protect himself and the people around him. This individual who came with weapons and ammunition to stop a law enforcement operation of federal law enforcement officers, committed an act of domestic terrorism. That's the facts.

[Host/Moderator]

Those were not the facts. Those were lies. Incredibly, though, all of that may not have been what did it in the eyes of Donald Trump. You see, on Wednesday, while testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Kristi Noem was asked about a massive $220 million ad campaign which was funded by us, the American taxpayer. And it prominently featured her in shots like that, on a horse, full hair and makeup, with a cowboy hat on. Taxpayers paid for her to make those ads of herself on horseback at Mount Rushmore. Noem said under oath when asked about it, that Trump personally approved that the controversial ad blitz featuring her in the lead role. But Donald Trump today said he was completely unaware of that ad campaign, quote. I never knew anything about it, he told Reuters shortly before firing her. Kristi Noem's replacement is someone you'll soon hear a lot about. I'm sure it's Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen. He's a former mixed martial arts fighter. Of course he is. Who is a staunch defender of Donald Trump. That's just getting started. And it's where we start today. Former DHS chief of staff from Donald Trump's first term as president. Miles Taylor is here. Also joining us, senior White House reporter Vaughn Hilliard. With me at the table, senior contributing editor Michele Norris, Michelle, my first thoughts went to the families of Renee, Nicole Good and Alex Preddy. You'd like to think that smearing them would have been the thing that got her fired. It wasn't. And we'll continue to unpack any causation or correlation that we are aware of at this. And her legacy will always include those killings in Minneapolis and the way that

[Michele Norris]

she described them very quickly, you know, without a lot of time to digest what went on. Watching that now is surreal to listen to describe what happened on Portland Avenue when Renee Goode was killed. That they got stuck in the snow, they didn't. That they were firing defensively. They weren't. Now, this will go through the courts and it will all be adjudicated, but people know what they saw through a multitude of videos that were released. Whoever is replacing Kristi Noem, if it is Mark Wayne Mullen, if he winds up being approved by the Senate, they are inheriting a royal mess. I mean, this is a department that is struggling with morale problems. We know that from some of the things that have been leaked from people inside both ICE and cpb. Infrastructure problems, financial problems. The inspector general just released letters to Congress earlier this week saying, you know, outlining the problems inside the department. The homeland does need to be defended. It is important that, you know, DHS does play an important role. But what happened to this agency in such a short period of time, and there's a real problem with credibility. And it's going to be difficult for, I think, for Mark Wayne Mullen to be the person who brings back that credibility, especially when we were just listening to him yesterday having a hard time describing why we're in Iran. He is so loyal to Donald Trump. You know, things happen so fast, we forget that that just happened yesterday. What they really need is someone who will be able to come back and restore some credibility to the organization, to be able to remember what the Department of Homeland Security actually is supposed to be doing and start rebuilding that department from the ground up.

[Host/Moderator]

Vaughn Hilliard, I won't ask you to get to the bottom of what the last straw was or why it happened, but just take me through all the things that might have piqued Trump's interest in her poor performance. I mean, chief among them, his cratering poll numbers on the question of immigration, once his strong suit.

[Miles Taylor]

Right. And I think that is an embodiment of the struggle for anybody serving in Trump 2.0 cabinet, that Kristi Noem effectively tried to carry out his goals and the agenda of a mass deportation effort. But she struggled to do what was legally within the bounds of her abilities to do so. I don't think that you're looking at somebody that was not an avid spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security. She made those ads to promote the work of those deportation operations in their immigration restriction efforts. But instead, what you had was somebody who was limited by the bounds of judges, somebody who did not make Donald Trump happy because of the bounce that there was not a greater mass deportation effort carried out and one that oftentimes had bad imagery associated with it, children running from school in New Jersey, the killing of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode. But I think that that is going to be the struggle for Mark Wayne Mullen as well here, because Kristi Noem, in many ways, right. A couple weeks ago, I asked her at the White House about the Fourth Amendment rights of unreasonable search and seizure and whether folks were being asked with unreasonable suspicion for their papers. And she, her quote back to me was very clear that they are doing everything correctly. So in so many ways, I think that she was a figure that tried to do her best on behalf of Donald Trump and his desires. But that is where there is such a short straw for individuals. And she could very well be the first to fall. Because if you look at the other one, for example, right, unlike Tulsi Gabbard and Kash Patel carrying out efforts in Fulton county, she effectively was unable to prove at any point that there were noncitizens on the voter rolls across the country, which she herself acknowledged was under her purview. She did nothing to show that there were cybersecurity threats to vote tabulating machines around the country, which she also suggested was under her purview, and so forth. In so many ways, I think her performance up on Capitol Hill by effectively throwing Donald Trump under the bus of approving that $220 million ad campaign only added on to the difficulty she had in garnering the approval of the man that she reported to.

[Host/Moderator]

I mean, Myles, it's dystopian to say that she failed in part because she couldn't find voter fraud. There wasn't any. Bill Barr couldn't find any either. I never thought I'd find myself defending Kristi Noem, but let me show you something that was really epic television. And everything we know about Donald Trump is that from time to time, he's moved by that which plays out on television. This is Thom Tillis.

[Senator Thom Tillis]

I read your book last week, and honestly, some of the parts of it impress me, but some of it distresses Me. And I'll give you a good example of one that does. The passage where you talk about killing a dog that was 14 months old. I trained dogs. All right? And you are a farmer. You should know better. You should know that if you're going out to a hunting lodge and you're putting pheasants out and you're putting dogs out, you don't take a puppy out there. A 14 month old dog is basically a teenager in dog years. You decided to kill that dog because you had not invested the appropriate time in training. And then you have the audacity to go into a book and say it's a leadership lesson about tough choices. It's in your book. We could play it if we had time. At that same lunch hour. You killed a goat. And you killed the goat because you said it was behaving badly. You are a farmer. You don't castrate a goat. They behave badly. You should have probably done that before. But my point is those are bad decisions made in the heat of the moment, not unlike what happened up in Minneapolis. I expect we're an exceptional nation. And one of the reasons we're exceptional is we expect exceptional leadership. And you've demonstrated anything but that in the time that I've seen you responding to the emergency in North Carolina and across the Southeast and acknowledging when mistakes are made and speaking too soon for the expedient of social media or whatever it is

[Host/Moderator]

now. Miles Taylor. The book was available before she was confirmed by the Senate. But I'll take his disgust at the lack of character in Kristi Noem seven days a week. He basically said, you are a bad person incapable of making good decisions.

[Nicole]

Nicole. What Senator Tillis should have said was that Noem will be remembered for treating Americans like she treats her dogs. And let me explain what I mean by that. Her legacy as the most consequential Secretary of Homeland Security in the department's history is taking it from a place that was built to defend against Al Qaeda attacks to going after Americans under the banner of antifa. And that's what we've seen during her tenure. We've seen the whole of the Department of Homeland Security reoriented to go after the political opposition in this country instead of the people who want to kill Americans. And in doing so, she has become the warden of the police state. She's now the lead department for harassing Americans and surveilling Americans and grifting off of Americans and punishing Americans and in some cases killing Americans. And it's not just cbp and ice. Nicole, she has politicized every single component agency of dhs, from the Coast Guard all the way to fema, which has withheld billions of dollars from states just because they're blue states. Literally, the Department of Homeland Security has stopped helping American if they didn't vote for President Trump. That is the dramatic reorientation that has happened under her. And whether it's Mark Wayne Mullen or someone else, that's going to take years, if not a generation to undo that type of damage. That is Kristi Noem's legacy.

[Host/Moderator]

Let me ask all of you to stick around. I want to bring into our coverage Democratic Senator Alex Padilla of California. Senator, I had a chance to speak with you after you were forcibly removed from one of Kristi Noem's press conferences in Los Angeles last year. And I remember asking you if this is how you're treated with cameras rolling as a sitting United States Senator, what do you think they're doing to people here in an asylum process or here as illegal immigrants or here trying to gain legal status? And I couldn't fathom that the treatment would extend to people protesting the treatment of people here trying to gain legal status or have their asylum cases resolved. What are your thoughts today as even Donald Trump finds Kristi Noem unsuitable for his Cabinet?

[Senator Alex Padilla]

Right. And you have to be really, really bad in this Cabinet for Republican members of Congress to criticize you and call for your removal. And clearly really, really bad for even Donald Trump to finally say, this is enough, Christine Noem has to go. Look, Nicole, after that Homeland Security press conference that I attended last year, when I returned to the Senate, the two main points I was trying to make was exactly what you just said. If this is how they'll treat a senator trying to ask you a question, imagine what's happening when the cameras aren't there to farm workers, to cooks, to day laborers and others in this mass deportation agenda that's out of control by Christine Ohms, DHS and the Trump administration. But the other warning that I had, and I was praying that I would be wrong about this, is that what started in Los Angeles last summer was the playbook that would extend to other parts of the country. And it came to Washington, D.C. we saw images of a surge in Chicago, in Portland, elsewhere, and especially in Minneapolis. And so you're right, there is going to have to be a lot of work to make be done. Because while Christian O. May be gone, the fundamental reforms, the reigning in of ICE agents, CBP officers and others still is in the balance. It's not a coincidence that the one part of the federal government that does not have an approved fiscal year budget is the Department of Homeland Security. Easy way to get that done. Let's implement these reforms, do enforcement, by the way, rule of law and respect for constitutional rights. And let's move forward.

[Host/Moderator]

Right now, DHS is, as you've indicated, in so many crises, there is, as you said, there's no operating budget. There is a revolt that is not partisan in nature. Around the country, everywhere they want to build prisons to hold migrants and undocumented people. There is a revolt from judges who have now tallied up all of the instances where DHS has defied the courts and judicial orders. What would you say to your Republican colleagues who may be inclined to be deferential to one of their own, a fellow senator?

[Senator Alex Padilla]

Yeah, well, let's first of all return to the confirmation hearing process. That actually means something. And I was so disappointed, pointed last year when administration official after administration official was coming through for confirmation and the hearings weren't serious. The real issues weren't being raised. The questions about people's backgrounds were not the focus. It was a rubber stamp through and through and through. And now we're seeing the consequences of that. Just one small disagreement in the premise of your question about the courts. This isn't a revolt by the court courts. This is judges appointed by both Democratic and Republican presidents standing up for the rule of law and saying no when the administration is out of bounds. That has to be called out. It has to be stopped. It has to be reined in. That's what we're seeing, the justice system doing its job. And I hope that sends a signal to my Republican colleagues in Congress they have to do their job. I know Donald Trump is a Republican president, but Congress is a co equal branch of government. Their oath of office and their primary responsibility is to the Constitution and their constituents, not the leader of their party.

[Host/Moderator]

I take your note. I stand corrected. Let me ask you quickly, do you think that what you saw from Senator Tillis is a nod to simply his retirement, or do you think there is a sense that Donald Trump is a political ball and chain? He's at 36% percent on immigration. He said about 34%. Approval of the war in Iran is lower than that in some polls. Approval of the handling of the turning over the Epstein files, lower than that. Still, do you think they're seeing that marching in lockstep is a political loser and do you think it'll change any of their behavior?

[Senator Alex Padilla]

Yeah. Look, if that's what it takes to change some of their behavior, then I guess I'll take it. I wish what would drive them first and foremost? Foremost is their conscience, their concern about integrity and the concerns that they're sharing in private to disagree with Trump and do the right thing. But look, I'm not politically naive. The primary season has begun and we've seen election results not just, but including in Texas. And I do think there's a lot of Republican office holders, consultants, etc. Looking at the numbers and what Donald Trump is doing to their favorability, to the impact of turnout. It's not looking good for November and that's why not to change topics on you, but Donald Trump and even Christine are attacking the electoral process this November. It's their only way to hold on to power. Let's respect the right to vote, just as I'm saying, let's respect people's First Amendment rights when they're out there protesting, standing up for their neighbors. Let's protect the Fourth Amendment rights. No illegal detentions or searches and seizures. On and on and on.

[Host/Moderator]

I welcome anyone changing the subject anytime. It's all related. Senator Alex Padilla, thank you very much for joining us today. The panel six round and we'll bring them back in on this topic. On the other side, we have much more coverage about the firing of Kristi Noem. Why today and the former MMA fighter who, as Michelle just pointed out, struggled with a question yesterday about the war in Iran. We'll ask why Trump picked him. Plus, Pete Hegseth is set to speak at U.S. central Command just as the Pentagon has identified two more members of the military who have been killed as a result of the war in Iran. And one day after Pete Hegseth berated the media for reporting on those lives lost later in the broadcast, the investigation that Donald Trump wanted his Justice Department to pursue instead of the one they should be pursuing. Much, much more to come. A deadly White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Commercial Announcer]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news these days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand. Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified Cloud practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job. Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids.

[Senator Alex Padilla]

We only met a month ago, Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail]

[Odoo Advertiser]

Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need, and they're all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's o-o o.com.

[Host/Moderator]

are there measures being taken?

[Michele Norris]

Not to eliminate other possible alternatives to leadership.

[Miles Taylor]

This is war, and we're taking out the threat.

[Frank Kendall]

They'll concede this is war.

[Nicole]

We haven't declared war. They declared war on us, Secretary Hex.

[Miles Taylor]

We haven't declared.

[Michele Norris]

Now, you said this is war.

[Nicole]

They've called it war. What I was saying.

[Miles Taylor]

Okay, well, that was misspoke.

[Nicole]

What I was saying that they've declared war on us.

[Frank Kendall]

But.

[Miles Taylor]

But war is ugly. It always has been ugly. But we're, you know, we're at a. We're taking out a regime that's been

[Nicole]

trying to attack us for quite some time. But you're not conceding as we have declared war.

[Miles Taylor]

So if we haven't declared war, then

[Nicole]

I don't see that the President asked

[Miles Taylor]

us to declare war yet.

[Host/Moderator]

Who's on first? I don't know. Ask the former MMA fighter turned senator, Mark Wayne Mullen. That was him trying to answer. Well, declaring, quote, this is war and then saying, who said war? That is Donald Trump's pick to run a department so mired in controversy that Donald Trump's approval rating on immigration is down to 34%. And majorities of Americans think ICE has gone too far. We're back with Miles Vaughn and Michelle. He's going to make it better. You know, I don't want to laugh

[Michele Norris]

about this because we are a country engaged in military action overseas that now involves, what, 12 other countries? So you don't want to laugh about that.

[Host/Moderator]

Donald Trump described as a war, but

[Michele Norris]

it sounds like Abbott and Costello. You know, when you're listening to that, it's really unfortunate. And this is the person that we're turning to to now run a department that is lost its credibility and is hobbled in lots of ways. What I hope to see is some of the senators, including the Republican senators, Tillis, and remember Senator Kennedy from Louisiana, who grilled Kristi Noem also, I hope that they bring some of that heat to the confirmation hearing to really look at this department and look at what it will take to try to restructure dhs. So it's not just the rubber stamp that Senator Padilla was just talking about. This is just. There's too much at stake right now. I mean, right now when we're talking about this, there's a group of Minnesota lawyers that are in Geneva, in Geneva, talking to the UN about the ice, the impact of ICE on immigrant communities, on the courts throughout the United States, particularly in the state of Minnesota. I mean, this is a very serious problem. And it's too serious for them to just pass Robert Stanley mulling through because he is a colleague of theirs and because he's, you know, loyal to Donald Trump. There simply is too much at stake right now.

[Host/Moderator]

Let me read you, Miles Taylor. I have to put my glasses on to read this accurately. Mark Wayne Mullen's confirmation hearing to run DHS would take place in the Senate Homeland Security Committee, chaired by Senator Rand Paul, who Mark Wayne Mullen recently called a, quote, freaking snake while sympathizing with the neighbor who attacked Paul in 2017. I think Rand Paul had some ribs broken, but don't quote me on that part of it. Yeah. So this is happening.

[Nicole]

Well, look, not good. Not good for his confirmation hearing. But I'll tell you what, Rand Paul knows, Nicole, that in some way, shape or form, he's going to express during these confirmation hearings, the administration is trying to send an arsonist into a burning house. No one should be under the illusion that Mark Wayne Mullen is gonna go into DHS and clean it up. And you know this, Nicole. Last year, we launched this thing called defiance.org to crowdsource efforts to counter Donald Trump's abuses of power. Fully half the submissions we get about corruption that we need to try to go after have to do with the Department of Homeland Security, election threats and immigration threats and designating the political opposition as terrorists and whistleblowers, talking about Fourth Amendment violations and Second Amendment violations. And, you know, the WHO thing. It's a burning building, the Department of Homeland Security, and they're sending a guy in there who helped start that fire. It's become a totally lawless place. Not only is he not going to clean it up, this also comes at a really dangerous moment. And I want to note something, Nicole. I'm not playing the violin for Kristi Noem, but this comes at a very strange moment. Donald Trump said that he thought about the implications for US Security when he went into Iran, and now he's firing the defensive team here in the United States. He's leaving us totally exposed. He's putting the Department of Homeland Security in turmoil at a moment when we know the Iranians will plan terrorist attacks against the United States. My question in that confirmation hearing is Markway Mullen prepared to actually get the department to focus on what it's supposed to do, terrorists instead of calling American protesters antifa and pretending they're domestic terrorists? That's the big question. We are in a war right now. This guy can't even seem to figure out what to call it, and now we're expecting him to go run the defensive team. Once again, this just shows the president's total and complete recklessness with national security.

[Host/Moderator]

I mean, Vaughn, it's a great point, and it's actually one Donald Trump introduced when he offered the fourth explanation for why the strikes in Iran happened. After Marco Rubio saying it was because Israel was going to strike. After Donald Trump talking about a month ago about the protesters in the streets, after a couple of the cabinet members talking about regime change and Pete Hegseth just talking about total destruction, he added another rationale. He said it was tied to the attempt to assassinate him after the strike on Soleimani. Is Donald Trump by saying that, indicating that there is a threat to the homeland from Iran?

[Miles Taylor]

I think it calls into question, number one, that I think that we've known that Iran has posed a threat here domestically. The President of the United States himself. And if you look back to October 2024, when the Biden Department of Justice was able to effectively investigate, charge and convict a man in Michigan who had a plot, according to prosecutors, that was directed by the Iranian government to kill him. And I think that that really hits at the heart of the what Miles is saying is the operational capacity of the Department of Homeland Security right now. Not only has there been a gutting of career employees, folks that were furloughed, folks that took last year, the Doge buyout to leave the department, but also really in real time, the Department of Homeland Security is still technically shut down. And there is no clear avenue in which there are congressional Democrats that are seeking to agree with this administration to open up the Department of Homeland Security and to begin funding it again. Because a couple of the demands like, for example, requiring warrants to go in and execute on attempted deportation efforts here. But I think it also goes back to a really good reporting from our colleagues Laura Barone Lopez and Jake Traylor back in December, where part of Stephen Miller's frustration with Kristi Noem and the Department of Homeland Security leadership, including Corey Lewandowski, was, was their slowness to spend money that was appropriated through the one big beautiful bill, that $60 billion extra for ice to carry out its deportation efforts here. And so whether it is for counterterrorism efforts through the Department of Homeland Security or whether it's for their deportation efforts, there is a logjam at the leadership and ultimately at the career personnel level to carry out the type of activity that is meant to protect Americans here at home. And so while on hand, Donald Trump is removing those over frustration with their slowness to act. At the same time, who is going to operationally fill that gap and carry out the demands? Mark Wayne Mullen, somebody that doesn't have any experience with the Department of Homeland Security or the executive branch of the federal government. I guess he's made that determination. But it's not clear that there is a hiring spree of other individuals across DHS here at a time that it's still shut down to ensure that they're getting not only hired, but also that those that are currently serving are going to be getting their paychecks in the weeks to come.

[Host/Moderator]

Myles Taylor, the White House made a point of making sure it was known publicly that Corey Lewandowski had also been fired. Is it typical for a secretary's staff to also get thrown out when they get fired?

[Nicole]

I wouldn't say it's typical. It is typical of Trump, however. I mean, when he went through his previous purges of dhs, including the ones that I lived through, there was sort of a White House review of who else needed to get thrown out the door. I would say, actually, Nicole, what's really noteworthy about this is they've always disliked Corey, so it made sense that they pushed him out. But the fact that Donald Trump announced that he was going to give the secretary this sort of dubious title as an envoy to the shield, something, something totally made up, didn't exist before, tells you what he's trying to do. I saw him do this with previous DHS secretaries. He wants to give her some sort of title and off ramp and presumably health care benefits and pay as a way to literally buy her off. Nicole that's not errant speculation. I've seen him do that. Before with previous Cabinet secretaries. He's fired. He has tried to quickly come up with a sort of consolation job for them because he's worried. He's worried they'll go write a book. That's mean. He's worried they will go speak out. And as loyal as Kristi Noem has been doing everything Donald Trump wants, he fears that she will go out there and undercut him. I doubt she even knew she was going to get this title. Clearly she didn't know she was going to get fired in that moment if she was speaking while she got fired. But Donald Trump will be, I'm sure, in the days to come, making phone calls to her, telling her he's going to take care of her. This is how a mob boss operates. It's how he operated in the first term. He's certainly doing that again. If I had one piece of advice for Kristi Noem, it would be listening. You did a lot of bad things, but it's never too late to do the right thing. Maybe you don't want to take that offer. Maybe you don't want to take that envoy job. Maybe you want to tell us the truth of what your conversations with Donald Trump were actually like. But I won't hold my breath.

[Host/Moderator]

Miles Taylor is a great way. Vaughn Hilliard, amazing reporting. Thank you both so much for starting us off. Michelle sticks around. After the break, we are watching US Central Command where Pete Hegseth is set to speak about the latest on the war in Iran. A quick break. We'll be right back.

[Commercial Announcer]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news. These days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand. Skills? Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified cloud practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.

[Nicole]

Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end.

[Frank Kendall]

Huh?

[Nicole]

Nibbles gone too soon. May he scurry in peace.

[Host/Moderator]

Hey, sorry about your pet, but I just wire stuff.

[Nicole]

Nibbles would have loved you like a brother.

[Senator Alex Padilla]

Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail]

[Odoo Advertiser]

Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's o d o o.com

[Host/Moderator]

any minute now, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and Admiral Brad Cooper, the commander of centcom, will come to the podiums we're led to believe and deliver a public update on the war in Iran. The last time that happened Yesterday, Pete Hegses spoke to reporters. He said this about the six U.S. service members who have been killed.

[Nicole]

This is what the fake news misses. We've taken control of Iran's airspace and waterways. Without boots on the ground, we control their fate. But when a few drones get through or tragic things happen, it's front page news. I get it. The press only wants to make the president look bad, but try for once to report the reality.

[Host/Moderator]

So the death of six service members, in the words of Pete Hegseth, is not, quote, reporting the reality. Twelve hours after the Defense Secretary of Defense said that that reporting on the men and women who have lost their lives serving their country is just an effort to, quote, make the president look bad, the Pentagon announced the name of a service member believed to be one of those six casualties. Chief Warrant Officer 3, Robert M. Marzon was 54 years old. He was from Sacramento, California. To honor Marzan, California's Governor Gavin Newsom ordered all the flags to have staff and issued a statement that reads, quote, we offer our deepest condolences to his wife and family during this time of profound sorrow. The sacrifices made by military families are immeasurable and California stands in solidary solidarity with them, united in grief and gratitude. Major Jeffrey o' Brien was also killed by an Iranian drone strike, according to the Defense department. He was 45 years old. He was from Iowa. His family said this in a statement about him, quote, jeff was a true hero in every sense of the word. He was not only a role model to our kids, but also a goofy and silly dad, always looking for ways to make the kids laugh. He was an exceptional and caring husband, even finding Ways to take care of us while serving 7,000 miles away. Jeff was also an incredible friend, a dedicated employee, and a man of deep faith. Every one of these relationships matter profoundly to him, and he will be missed by so many. End quote. We learned earlier in the week about the identities of the other four soldiers who have been killed. Sergeant First Class Nicole Amour of White Bear Lake, Minnesota, Captain Cody Cork of Winter Haven, Florida, Sergeant First Class Noah Teehens of Bellevue, Nebraska, and Sergeant Declan Cody of West Des Moines, Iowa, whose sister spoke with the Associated Press Watch. I still don't fully think it's real. I didn't think it was real when they told us. I just really wish I got to tell him I love him one more time because he was just so amazing. And he was in front of everybody,

[Michele Norris]

just was like, really strong.

[Host/Moderator]

He, like, he never let his emotions really show. But I just. I don't know, I can't help but think just he was my little brother and he was probably really scared, even if he didn't want people to know. So I just wish he couldn't know one more time that we all loved him. I want to bring into our coverage former Secretary of the Air Force Frank Kendall. He's a senior fellow at the center for American Progress, the author of the forthcoming book Lethal Autonomy. Michelle's still here. It's hard to think of anything to say or to follow a member, family member, but. Frank, what are your thoughts?

[Frank Kendall]

Nicole, I've had, particularly during the Obama administration, quite a few numbers of occasions when I went to Dover Air Force Base to meet with the families of people who had lost loved ones and to be part of the ceremony that the dignified transfer, it's called, when people come back and the caskets are taken off the airplane. It brings home to you the reality of war and what the cost of sending American men and women into combat actually is. And if our leadership doesn't understand that, doesn't appreciate that, and isn't sensitive to it, they shouldn't be leading us. It's an awesome responsibility to send our men and women into battle. It's an awesome responsibility to unleash the incredibly powerful and efficient killing machine that that is the United States military. And it's not just these few American lives. There are thousands of lives, already, over a thousand in Iran, lives in other countries that are now being attacked by Iran. This was an incredibly. I'm trying to think of a word that fits it. Reckless, I think is good, maybe thoughtless, amateurish initiation of a conflict by the United States it really pains me to see what's happening now, and I don't see an easy way out of this at this point.

[Host/Moderator]

Frank, what is the portrait of a Secretary of defense who describes any effort to allow family members to pay tribute to their brother, their little brother in that instance, or others, as, quote, the fake news media trying to make the president look bad, end quote.

[Frank Kendall]

It's ridiculous. The press is reporting what the press reports. This is the reality of war. This is what happens. And I don't think that the press should shy away from making that clear.

[Host/Moderator]

It's hard to fathom that embedding journalists inside the operation is something that would be on the table but for Pete Hagseth to stand there and sort of reveal his own thin skin and that of Donald Trump's. How does the enemy read that?

[Frank Kendall]

I don't know. It's very hard to say how they perceive us. Iranians have had a very negative view with the United States for a very long time. Since the government was overthrown. The Shah was put into power decades ago. We've had roughly a 50 year period with them in power. There's no reason to think that there was an imminent attack coming. That was ridiculous. But suddenly there was enough justification to go into war. And all the doublespeak we're getting from members of Congress and so on. You had some of that on earlier. Is just being disingenuous with the American people. We've hit thousands of targets. Now we're several days into a major air campaign. A number of countries have been brought in and we don't know how this is going to end. We haven't had clear definitions of what the objectives are. We've had a number of different things stated to us. Donald Trump now seems to think that he's going to personally pick the new leadership of Iran. It'll be interesting to see how he does that. It is hard for me to imagine as, again, a more reckless and amateurish approach to international relations and unleashing the enormous power of the United States military on a country that had not really attacked us.

[Host/Moderator]

I've had the privilege of speaking with you on multiple occasions, and it's clear that this is not just your warnings being realized, but really a scary moment for men and women who have served in leadership positions at the Pentagon. Is that a fair assessment?

[Frank Kendall]

I think it is. In many ways. The Iran has a number of ways to come back at us.

[Miles Taylor]

Right.

[Frank Kendall]

They don't have a powerful military like we do, but there are a number of asymmetric things they can do. They can do cyber attacks. They can launch terror attacks. You're seeing them firing what is essentially harassing fires into the region. And they're going to, they're not going to change the military outcome that way, but they could change the political outcome. They're going to inflict casualties. And nobody's enjoying this moment in the region right now where there are cities and their, their bases and so on are under attack. We could have lone wolves who just decide on their own to go out and kill some Americans anywhere on the planet. So there are a number of things that could be done here in response, and it isn't. You know, this will be a lasting impact on these people. It'll be something that they will carry with them for the rest of their lives that have experienced this. So we launched ourselves off of this cliff into this conflict without any real understanding of where we were going to land or what was going to happen next.

[Host/Moderator]

All right, no one's going anywhere. We are still waiting for that briefing at the Pentagon to possibly have some of these questions answered. We'll sneak in a quick break ahead of that. We'll all be right back.

[Nicole]

Donald Trump campaigned on ending the wars because he knew at the time that that's what Americans wanted and still want. And yet here we go again.

[Host/Moderator]

We're back with Secretary Kendall Michel. Michel, I will Never forget the 2015 Republican primary when Lindsey Graham fell, Chris Christie fell, Marco Rubio fell spectacularly and near the end. And they all fell largely. Jeb Bush fell, because they believed in a foreign policy that supported the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And Donald Trump promised to never again take the country to war.

[Michele Norris]

No more forever wars. And that is why Pete Hegseth's rather callous approach to the American public is even more of a head scratcher. He may not want to explain why we went to war. We are indeed calling it that now, and that is difficult to explain in short order. But when the country does go to war, whether you call it a war or a military operation, America goes to war along with the military. And I've been around a long time, and you have, too, and you've talked to former secretaries of defense, and they will tell you that this is one of the most difficult aspects of their job, is preparing America for this kind of conflict and also preparing families for what they're asking them to do and then figuring out how to talk about those losses. You know, Pete Hexseth just seems to have abdicated that part of the job in trying to help explain to Americans, what's at stake to help explain to Americans what the potential impacts will be. And one of the things that it robs the, the military of is the ability of the capability of trying to get Americans to perhaps support the troops, because that's part of Your job at SecDef also, is to not necessarily rally America for war. It's not like a rah rah exercise, but to help understand the sacrifices that the troops are making and the sacrifices that Americans will be asked to make. And those six families have made the ultimate sacrifice. And so when he's talking about this in terms of public relations, it sounds sort of ugly, but he does have a little bit of a public relations job that he should be doing in trying to help explain what we're up against and what this is going to look like, instead of talking about this in terms of four or five weeks to help understand that this is going to be something that we are all going to be living with for a very, very long time.

[Host/Moderator]

Secretary Kendall, it strikes me that Michel and I are now very publicly, we've both gone back and forth calling it a war, a military operation. Donald Trump called it a war. I think Rubio has called it both a war and an operation. They called them a Doro operation, both an act of war. And Rubio had called it a law enforcement operation on the Sunday shows immediately following. Why do the words matter?

[Frank Kendall]

Well, they matter because the Constitution gives the authority to initiate a war very clearly with the Congress and not the president. I think presidents for quite some time have conducted military operations that they consider short of war. How you can say that about this one, I think really boggles the mind. You know, the attack on Venezuela, Venezuela was relatively brief, was a raid, basically. There have been proportionate responses sometimes to attacks on American installations, but this is of a scale and magnitude that nobody can convince you. It's not a major operation here, a major war. We have built two carrier boots. We built a lot of other assets into the region. I think they expected it to be very short. They were looking for something that followed the Venezuela model. You know, it'd be over quickly. They decapitate the government, people would rise up, take over, and that'd be it. That's not what they got. And it's quite often historically that people who start wars end up with wars they didn't intend. Vladimir Putin just had this experience in Ukraine a few years ago. Here we are. I can't predict how this will end. It could end very quickly. It could end up with an uprising as was apparently expected. It's more likely, I think, to end up with some kind of a deal where Donald Trump, in order to stop this, cuts a deal with the existing regime, gets something that he can as a token in any way claim victory. And then we go on. That's it could also drag on for quite a long time. The Iranians, I think, are capable of maintaining the types of military operations they've been conducting. Maybe at a lower level. We can continue the air campaign. We do have plenty of weapons. And this can go on for some time without a resolution. I think at the end of the day, it's going to be solved through some political decision and political pressure both within Iran and within the United States to get it over with. And those pressures are going to come about independent of what's happening operationally, I think.

[Host/Moderator]

Secretary Frank Kendall, thank you for sharing your experience and wisdom with us. Michelle, thank you for spending the hour with us at the table. That's always wonderful. There's lots more news ahead. We will return to our top story, the firing of Kristi Noem. We're also keeping an eye on that picture that's been on your screen for the better part of our hour. That upcoming briefing from Pete Hegseth and CENTCOM for an update on the war with Iran.

[Michele Norris]

Quick break.

[Host/Moderator]

We'll be right back.

[Commercial Announcer]

Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kids legal guardian? Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids.

[Senator Alex Padilla]

We only met a month ago. Angie, the one you trust. Define the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects at Angie Combination.