“Largest mass resignation in months”

Summary

Deadline: White House – “Largest mass resignation in months”

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: January 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Deadline: White House" centers on the largest recent wave of resignations within the Department of Justice (DOJ), following the DOJ’s refusal to investigate the fatal shooting of Renee Nicole Goode by a federal ICE agent in Minneapolis. Nicolle Wallace leads a discussion with key investigative reporters and legal analysts to dissect the unprecedented resignations, the shifting internal culture at the DOJ, and the broader implications for the rule of law and public trust in federal institutions. The second half briefly covers the backlash to the Trump administration's criminal investigation of Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. DOJ Refuses to Investigate ICE Shooting, Causing Mass Resignation

• Background: The DOJ’s Civil Rights Division traditionally investigates police-involved killings. In this case, top DOJ leadership decided not to investigate the ICE officer’s fatal shooting of Renee Nicole Goode, instead pivoting to scrutinize Goode herself and her widow for possible activist ties ([01:07]).
• Impact: At least 12 senior prosecutors (six from the Civil Rights division, six from Minneapolis) resigned in protest—marking the largest mass exit since Eric Adams’ politicization case ([06:52], [21:34], [27:18]).

2. Turmoil and Alarm Within the DOJ

• Loss of Expertise: The resignations gutted both the DOJ’s Civil Rights Division and the Minnesota U.S. Attorney’s office of their most experienced prosecutors ([21:34]).
• Lack of Faith: The departures signal a profound loss of confidence from career attorneys and are pointed to as "a major vote of no confidence by career prosecutors at a moment when the department is under extreme scrutiny" ([21:34]).

3. Shift in DOJ Priorities – Victim Blaming and Deflection

• Quote: Carol Lennig reports, "This decision not to investigate the death of an American at the hands of an ICE officer is beyond the pale for a lot of these officials" ([04:33]).
• Trend: Instead of scrutinizing law enforcement conduct, the DOJ is allegedly investigating victims and their families—a tactic compared to authoritarian regimes and historic dehumanization campaigns ([13:23]).
• Media Spin: The narrative on right-wing media, exemplified by comments on Sean Hannity's show, is contrasted with the reality seen in body cam video—highlighting efforts to rewrite public perception ([11:43–13:23]).

4. The Dismantling of DOJ Norms and Rule of Law

• Political Interference: The panel underscores that both Republican and Democratic administrations have historically maintained some independence for DOJ investigations; the current administration is accused of direct interference ("no pretense of independence anymore" – [27:53]).
• Resignations as Protest: Andrew Weissman, a former DOJ official, emphasizes that resignations on this scale are highly abnormal and reflect issues beyond 'policy differences' ([24:42]).

5. Personal Reflection on DOJ Decline

• Loss of North Star: Carol Lennig gives an emotional response, relaying that sources both inside and outside the Civil Rights Division are "heartsick" at the collapse of procedural norms ([29:49]):

“If we’re not going to investigate the death of an American citizen at the hands of a federal officer, which is just de rigueur for the Department of Justice, then where are we?” (Carol Lennig, [29:49])

• Historical Parallels: She recalls previous DOJ crises and frames this event as one of three watershed moments in the department's fall from grace ([29:49]).

6. Backlash to Criminal Probe of Fed Chair Jerome Powell

• Global Outcry: Top figures in finance and international banking speak out against Trump's DOJ for investigating Powell, with the Wall Street Journal calling the subpoena "dumb" lawfare ([35:54–37:24]).
• Significance of Fed Independence: Financial Times columnist Robert Armstrong likens the Fed's independence to a "fire extinguisher"—rarely needed, but vital in a crisis ([37:41]):

"Most of the time you don’t need [the Fed's independence]… but when the smoke starts, you’re really glad it’s there.” (Robert Armstrong, [37:41])

• Political Risks: The investigation is seen as both a political and institutional blunder, drawing bipartisan criticism and likely to influence the Supreme Court debate on agency independence ([40:13]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On DOJ's abdication of responsibility:

  "The decision not to investigate the death of an American at the hands of an ICE officer is beyond the pale for a lot of these officials."
  — Carol Lennig ([04:33])

• On the danger to the ICE agent:

  "...the worst thing in the world for ICE right now is for DOJ to not investigate the conduct of the officer."
  — Nicolle Wallace ([08:28])

• On propaganda and victim-blaming:

  "...that dehumanization to try to make us not care, that is what authoritarian regimes do. That is what led to horrific, horrific crimes throughout history..."
  — Andrew Weissman ([13:23])

• On public trust and the DOJ’s mission:

  “If the President is going to declare, in view of video evidence that directly shows that he is not telling the truth, that the woman, Renee Goode, rammed the officer or ran over the officer, if we're just going to go with that, then fact is over and equal justice is over.”
  — Carol Lennig ([29:49])

• Fed Chair Jerome Powell as institutional firewall:

  "What Trump was offering to do was take the fire extinguisher out of the nation's kitchen."
  — Robert Armstrong ([37:41])

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Timed Segment Highlights

• [01:07] Nicolle Wallace introduces the DOJ shooting controversy, framing the entire episode
• [04:33] Carol Lennig explains the significance and urgency of the resignations
• [06:52] Discussion of the numbers and gravity of DOJ resignations
• [08:28] Analysis of political consequences for Trump, ICE, and DOJ
• [11:43–13:23] Comparison between facts and right-wing media spin
• [17:25] Evidence of investigation being redirected toward the victim’s widow
• [21:34] Confirmation that resignations wiped out top DOJ talent
• [27:18] Historical context: comparison to other DOJ exoduses
• [29:49] Carol Lennig reflects on emotional and historical meaning
• [35:54] Shift to financial sector: DOJ subpoenas Fed Chair Powell
• [37:41] Robert Armstrong on the independence of the Federal Reserve

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Tone and Language

The discussion is urgent, candid, and at times emotionally charged, reflecting deep frustration and worry among deeply experienced legal and journalistic professionals. The conversation is rich with legal context, historical comparisons, and biting commentary on the Trump administration's approach to law enforcement and federal oversight.

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Summary Takeaways

• The DOJ’s refusal to investigate the death of Renee Nicole Goode by an ICE agent represents an extraordinary break with precedent, prompting the largest wave of resignations in months and calling into question the rule of law.
• Instead of focusing on police accountability, federal authorities are targeting the victim and her family—a tactic decried by panelists as authoritarian and dehumanizing.
• The resignations signal a profound breakdown in DOJ norms and reflect the distress of career professionals watching the department’s foundational values erode.
• The Trump administration’s criminal probe of Fed Chair Jerome Powell similarly sparked panic and rare bipartisan consensus, highlighting newly drawn “red lines” in institutional independence.
• Overall, the episode serves as a stark account of governmental drift from established norms—both through the lens of civil rights and economic policy.

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Transcript

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[Nicole]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in New York. The fact that the Criminal section of the Justice Department Civil Rights Division, the very unit tasked with investigating killings by police, refused to investigate the deadly shooting by a federal agent of a woman in Minneapolis last week is so shocking that it has led to the largest mass resignation inside the Department of Justice in months. Our colleagues Carol Lennig and Ken Delaney and were first to report this quote. Top leaders of the Criminal section of the Civil Rights Division have left their jobs to register their frustration with the department after the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights, Harmeet Dhillon, decided not to investigate the ICE officer's fatal shooting of Renee Goode last week. When asked for comment, a DOJ official quote, did not dispute the departures, but said the officials have requested early retirement prior to the Minnesota shooting. For years, the Criminal section of the Civil Rights Unit has prosecuted major cases of police brutality. Cases like the killing of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. According to the section's own website, the ultimate goal of their work in every case is to, quote, ensure that allegations are thoroughly and fairly investigated, that acts constituting federal criminal civil rights violations are sufficiently remedied, and that the rights of the victims are vindictive. But now what the department is choosing to investigate is whether or not Renee Nicole Good had any ties to activist groups. According to the New York Times, quote, the decision by the FBI and Justice Department to scrutinize Ms. Good's activities and her potential connections to local activists is in line with the White House strategy of deflecting blame for the shooting away from federal law enforcement and toward opponents they have described as domestic terrorists, often without providing evidence. The handling of the investigation is also reportedly leading to turmoil inside the U.S. attorney's office in Minnesota. From the New York Times reporting, quote, six federal prosecutors in Minnesota resigned Tuesday over the Justice Department's push to investigate the widow of a woman killed by an ICE agent and the department's reluctance to investigate the shooter. That is according to people with knowledge of their decisions. Joseph H. Thompson, who was second in command at the U.S. attorney's office, was among those who quit Tuesday, according to three people with knowledge of that decision. New York Times adding that Thompson rejected the idea of investigating Renee Nicole Goode's widow as well as, quote, the Justice Department's refusal to include state officials in investigating whether the shooting itself was lawful. People familiar with his decision say turmoil at the Justice Department in the wake of the shooting death of Renee Nicole Goode by an ICE agent is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Mississippi now senior investigative reporter who is bylined on that reporting that we read from, that we led from at the doj. Carol Lening is back with us. She's also the author of the book How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department. Also joining us, former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI and msnow, national security and intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg back. He's also a fellow at lawfare and former top official at the doj. Legal analyst Andrew Weissman is back with us as well. Carol Leonig, take us through your reporting first, please.

[Carol Lennig]

Well, we thought it was pretty urgent last night at 10 o' clock when we learned and then confirmed that at least four and possibly now we've confirmed six as of this afternoon. Senior leaders of the Civil Rights Division unit that handles this kind of investigation were resigning partially in protest of how the department decided not to investigate the death, the fatal shooting by an ICE officer of Renee Goode. You know, you set it up perfectly when you described it, Nicole, as this is the unit that historically has always investigated these not because there's a conclusion that an officer improperly drew his weapon or her weapon, but because there must be a fair investigation. When an American citizen was or civilian is killed by a federal officer. There is a belief and there has been a belief in the Justice Department until now that it's important for fairness and trust in the department that these investigations happen. We've also confirmed that good reporting by the Times that six federal prosecutors with the Department of Justice in the Minneapolis based office of the U.S. attorney's office have resigned, furious that there would be no investigation of that shooting. There would be no allowing the local authorities to participate, and instead there would be an emphasis on investigating Good and her widow. I guess what's most important for readers and viewers of this show to take away is that the sources who came to us to tell us about this are trying to send a alarm bell. They're trying to send a signal that what's happening in the Justice Department is not copacetic. This decision not to investigate the death of an American at the hands of an ICE officer is beyond the pale for a lot of these officials. They did register, by the way, the Civil Division folks who resigned, these leaders, they did register their concern that they were considering leaving before the shooting. But after the shooting, after the decision by their bosses not to investigate it, they all concluded they would leave immediately.

[Nicole]

Carol, let me just make sure. So it's 12 prosecutors are out, have resigned over the Justice Department's handling. Let me ask you a dumb question. Isn't it bad for the ICE agent that he doesn't want the imprimaturity, a thorough review of his conduct to clear him?

[Carol Lennig]

Well, I mean, that presume it's not a dumb question at all, by the way, but it does presume that the officer acted as the standard requires, which is you only use lethal, deadly force when you have a reasonable belief that your life is in danger. And there's a serious question based on the video evidence about whether or not the officer actually thought his life was in danger. This was an officer who had a gun drawn, a wheel turned away from that individual. He shot her through the front windshield, but the corner of the windshield because he was at a corner from her. And he also had a phone in his hand because he had been filming the the sort of events around that day. Protesters of ICE officers, protesters of ICE officers in Minnesota's streets. And so it's a question that's reasonably raised. Did he have a reasonable basis to think his life was in danger if he shot her as she was turned away from him and if he had a phone in his hand?

[Nicole]

MICHAEL Feinberg I guess it's a dumb question because of course they don't think an investigation would be good for this officer or they would have one. I mean, as much as the Trump story rumbles and roars on like a freight train, there are some things that don't ever, ever, ever change. The worst thing in the world for ICE right now is for DOJ to not investigate the conduct of the officer. The worst thing in the world for Donald Trump is for ICE to be more unpopular than it is right now, dividing not just America, but his own coalition. The worst thing in the world for Stephen Miller is for more people inside Trump's coalition to think that he's out of control and dragging Donald Trump's popularity into the toilet bowl with the out of control conduct of ice. And the worst thing for the Department of Justice already on the ropes politically because of their laughable handling of the Epstein case. Just ask Susie Wiles in her 11 on the record interviews, is for DOJ to look like they're in on this political debacle and a cover up of an ICE agent. I mean, what is amazing is that the facts and the things that happen before our eyes are obviously the same facts and things that happened before the very eyes of Harmeet Dhillon and other decision makers at doj.

[Carol Lennig]

Yeah.

[Andrew Weissman]

So look, first of all, this is a very short sighted decision by people at the Justice Department who think they are actually helping Officer Ross. Because the fact is, if our Constitution and country function like they're supposed to, at some point this administration is going to end. But what is not going to end with it is the state statute of limitations for murder or manslaughter or whatever crime they may choose to charge Ross with in the future. And a thorough DOJ investigation, if it did in fact exonerate him, would go a very long way to creating at least an informal prism assumption of his relative innocence if that were to be the case. But look, this is all of a piece of what we know about how the Trump administration operates. They shade the law and they obfuscate when their perceived allies are in trouble with prosecutors or with law enforcement. We saw it in the first term with the way Bill Barr horribly mischaracterized and underplayed the conclusions of Robert Mueller's final report, which Andrew worked on. We saw it during the campaign for the 2024 election when he promised to pardon thousands of people who committed an act of domestic terrorism and assaults on federal officers. Those pardons did, in fact, happen. We have seen it with an investigation into Tom Homan evaporating into thin air. And now we're seeing it with a refusal to even consider the possibility that Officer Ross and Colleagues may have been outside policy.

[Nicole]

I want it, I've never uttered this sentence in however many years I've been doing this. But I want to show you something that happened on that Gregory Bovino said on Sean Hannity's show last night. Because the propaganda being fed to the right is I think this sort of underappreciated story. We've all seen the facts. Actually this is important too. I think close to 90% of Americans have seen this, 82% of Americans have seen the video. So everyone has seen what actually happened. And let me show you what the spin is from Gregory Bobino being spoon fed to Sean Hannity. This is last night.

[Commercial Voice]

The 4,000 pound missile is not something anyone wants to face, especially in a split second decision making process in a very already inhospitable environment. Hats off to that ICE agent. I'm glad he made it out alive.

[Andrew Weissman]

I'm glad he's with his family.

[Nicole]

Andrew Weissman I will say I'm glad the ICE agent is alive and with his family. I'm devastated that Renee Nicole Goode isn't and that she didn't make it out alive. And there is no example in human history of a human being faced with a 4,000 pound missile that grabs their cell phone, video and films it. There's none. If there were, it would be an award winning image. But there's none where a person actually doing what Greg Bovino says, quote, facing a 4,000 pound missile has taken out their cell phone and filmed the moment. Because that's not what happened. And I wonder what you make of the elaborate efforts at telling people not to believe what they can see with their own eyes.

[Michael Feinberg]

Well, let's start with who Mr. Bovino is. He has been found by a judge in Chicago to have been somebody who lacked candor in his statements to the court. He was found by a judge in D.C. washington, D.C. to have completely misunderstood and misapplied Fourth Amendment law. So both a lack of candor and a lack of understanding of the law, that is who this senior executive is. But your question I think goes to sort of the other part of what Michael was talking about. We talked about the lack of an investigation. And of course, why would DOJ have an investigation? Because the President and the Vice president and the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security have already announced without an investigation what happened here. They did not wait for an investigation. They told us that the ICE agent was right and she was wrong without any investigation. But it's worse than all that because they're doing what they have been doing since the very beginning of this administration, which is to try to tar and tarnish the victim. To say, for instance, Mr. Abrego Garcia is a gang member terrorist. So that we won't care about the fact that his due process rights were violated to dehumanize immigrants, people largely in black and brown communities. So we won't care about how they're being treated, the conditions they're in, and how they're being extracted from our community and sent abroad. And now we're seeing the exact same thing, which is, no, there's no investigation of the possible illegal conduct by the ICE agent, but there will be an investigation of the victim and the victim's widow. That is. I mean, not to use hyperbole, but that dehumanization to try to make us not care, that is what authoritarian regimes do. That is what led to horrific, horrific crimes throughout history and the 20th century, shows what can happen. And that is really what we are seeing here. There's sort of no investigation of what should be investigated, and an investigation to try and tarnish people so that we won't view them as human.

[Carol Lennig]

Human.

[Nicole]

I appreciate that note about dehumanization. It's something that is echoed in Michele Norris's reporting on the ground and others who've been on the ground watching what they're doing in the community. Let me, in that spirit, read Becca Goode. That is the widow, Renee Nicole Goode. Her statement about who the human beings are. This is who we're talking about. Renee sparkled. She literally sparkled. I mean, she didn't wear glitter, but I swear she had sparkles coming out of her pores all the time. You might think it was just my love talking, but her family said the same thing. Renee was made of sunshine, like people have done across place and time. We moved to make a better life for ourselves. We chose Minnesota to make our home. There was a strong shared sense here in Minneapolis that we were looking out for each other. Here I had finally found peace and safe harbor that has been taken from me forever. We were raising our son to believe that no matter where you come from or what you look like, all of us deserve compassion and kindness. Carol, do you have any reporting that despite the 12 resignations, six out of the U.S. attorney's office in Minnesota and six out of the Civil Rights Division today, that someone is investigating Becca Goode, Renee Nicole Goode's widow, for associations or whatever it is they accuse her and her partner, wife of being.

[Carol Lennig]

We have sources who have made that claim that that investigation is being attempted. Whether or not it's actually gotten off the ground, Nicole, I don't want to pretend that I know. Whether or not it's gathered actually any information or led to any subpoenas, I can't say. But I would say that the sources believe there was a huge effort mounted to try to get that probe rolling. I think you can't underscore enough what Andrew said about how surprising it is to choose not to investigate the officer but to investigate the victim. That's, that's, it could be a corollary that you might pick up information about the victim and the victim's family and what the victim was doing at the time. Of course, if there was a real investigation of this shooting, it would look at everywhere Renee Goode had been even the day before. Her car was parked kitty corner, and she tried to leave this area and pull out when ordered to by police. It would look at her communications and telephone records. But it would start with the central question. Did the officer have a legal justification to shoot to kill a woman who was, as far as we can tell from the video seconds before her death, smiling, communicating? She wasn't in any kind of adversarial relationship with these people, but she was going to move forward and pull out and was slightly fearful of them. Turns out she had some reasons to be fearful.

[Nicole]

Yeah. I think everyone that has examined her conduct has described it as de escalatory in every sort of classic way that you would evaluate that if you were a professional law enforcement person. I need all of you to stick around. There's much more ahead for us, more that I want to show you that's been reported today. Additionally, Team Trump is facing intense backlash from around the world and even from some Republicans for its criminal investigation into Fed Chair Jerome Powell. Even as Trump continues his attacks against Powell. And later in the broadcast, stunning brand new reporting in the New York Times reveals that the United States military used a warplane disguised as a passenger jet during a September boat strike in the Caribbean, potentially violating the rules of war. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere foreign.

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[Nicole]

We'Re back with Carol, Michael and Andrew Michael Feinberg. The Washington Post has matched Carol Lanigan Kyndilanian's reporting in advance with the Times matched in advance with this reporting. The departures at DOJ and in the Minnesota office quote, wipe both the Civil Rights Division's criminal section and U.S. attorn Attorney's Office in Minnesota of its most experienced prosecutors. The moves are widely seen as a major vote of no confidence by career prosecutors at a moment when the department is under extreme scrutiny. You've got a quote in here from Todd Blanche. He says, quote, there's no basis for a criminal civil rights investigation into the shooting. Your thoughts?

[Andrew Weissman]

I would humbly suggest that at least since assuming the role of Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche's relationship with facts on the ground and truth in the air is somewhat non monogamous. Anybody who watched that video, including individuals that I'm friends with who are still in federal law enforcement, has questions. And that is true whether you believe that Officer Ross truly did believe his life was in danger and therefore justified in using deadly force, or if you rack your brain and cannot come up with a reason whatsoever why he pressed his trigger three times. The fact that there is such a disagreement, even among people who do this for a living, speaks very much to the need to at least probe this incident, this death, a little bit further. If Ross is fully innocent, then as the Trump administration is always fond of saying in prosecutions, there's nothing to hide, nothing to fear. If he is not innocent of any potential charges then it is an injustice not to pursue them. But the only way you reach either result is by having an investigation.

[Nicole]

Andrew Weissman. Kristi Noem was confronted with the double standard. And I guess if you could just explain for someone who's never worked in law enforcement or never been inside the FBI, what is the distinction? I mean, Officer Fanon described getting tased with his own gun. In his sworn testimony, he said he believed he was gonna die. In video that's been released, some of it, I think, is his body cam video. Some of it is other footage from the January 6th insurrection. He's talking about his kids and asking him not to kill him. And those officers, I mean, what is the standard? What should people understand? What is so black and white to Todd Blanche that we should understand that isn't available on that tape to people with eyes?

[Michael Feinberg]

So what is important for people to understand, and Michael knows this very well, but I dealt all the time, unfortunately, when I was general counsel at the FBI, is when there is a shooting like this, there's an investigation, whether it is a civil rights investigation that the Department of Justice does or the FBI itself does or the agency involved does. Because you need to make sure you know what happened. If it's a justified shooting and all internal rules and procedures and training was followed, you need to know that. If there was a failure, you need to know that it's not just routine. It is what happens in every administration, Democratic or Republican. It has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with running a sort of tight ship and making sure that you are acting within the law and you're acting within your own agency's regulations in terms of good stewardship of the enormous power that you have. What Todd Blanche is saying is he is just an amanuensis for the decision that was already announced by the president and Vice President of the United States here. There is nothing to see. Here is. This is. That is the line that is going to be drawn. In the same way that they did not open an investigation into Tom Homans, they did not open an investigation to Pete Hegseth signal gate, they will open an investigation into the victims to tar them. So it is. It is completely beyond the pale. And I think one sign of that, Nicole, is that in your opening, one of the things that you had to say, this is the largest group of people that have resigned. And then you said in months. The other thing that is not normal is that people do not resign, not in Republican or Democratic administrations. It does not happen. People understand that there are policy differences, that politics have consequences. That is not what is going on here. This is really an upending of the rule of law. And that is why you are seeing so many people resign. And you're seeing such an uproar in terms of what has happened here yet again with this administration.

[Nicole]

Well, Andrew, I mean, it's the most people that have resigned since I think the Eric Adams politicization, the case that repelled Federalist Society members in good standing like Danielle Sassoon and her deputy, who wrote scathing letters about Emile Bove and Todd Blanche and others and led to resignations Both in the U.S. attorney's office and at mained DOJ. This is a parallel exodus being described by reporters writing on this day as an exodus. I guess my question for you, Andrew Weissman, is what is left? What is inside DOJ now?

[Michael Feinberg]

Well, at the leadership level, you are seeing just absolute dearth of independence. The fact that just last week the White House announced that they're going to have fraud prosecutions being done directly out of the White House is a sign of that, that there's not even a pretense of the independence or even report to the Department of Justice at the line level, at the sort of career level of attorneys and prosecutors and analysts throughout government. There are people who, as Michael and I know, as Carol knows from her wonderful reporting in her book Injustice, there are people who are trying to do the right thing, who are trying to achieve, adhere to their oaths of office. But obviously that's becoming increasingly difficult, and that is why you're seeing resignations. Because the one thing, if you have an oath of office is when you are directed to do something that you just can't do, you cannot stomach that it is either illegal or immoral. This. That's when you see people quit. It has nothing to do with politics.

[Nicole]

Carol, in our conversation about your book, when your book came out, we ended sort of at odds, right? I mean, I thought that there would be some gravitational pull toward transparency, shame, people like Andrew and Michael coming out and talking about what the department was and can be but isn't. It feels like it's gone the other direction. I mean, your book left us with the question and the prospect of the end of the rule of law. I wonder how you feel personally covering these developments over the last week.

[Carol Lennig]

God, you always do the hardest question to me, why is that okay? As a human being? It's hard to make myself a human being. I'm a reporter. I want to gather the facts. I don't care who it hurts or who it impresses or who it potentially shadows with great favor. I want the facts. And I guess what I've been really disturbed by is how much the ground has moved under the Department of Justice. The anchors of it were being undermined when I was finishing the book with my co author Aaron Davis. They were definitely being harmed and damaged. But it feels like they're literally unmoored now. Because if we're not going to investigate the death of a American citizen at the hands of a federal officer, which is just de rigueur for the Department of Justice, then where are we? If the President is going to declare, in view of video evidence that directly shows that he is not telling the truth, that the woman, Renee Goode, rammed the officer or ran over the officer, if we're just going to go with that, then fact is over and equal justice is over. The moorings are yanked out to see the Public Integrity Section gutted in February of 2025, which we recount in the book and which you and I have discussed a lot over that issue of people who could not, as Andrew described, could not morally ab pulling a bribery case that they knew had merit, had evidence, had extensive facts. That was a watershed moment for the Department of Justice. And this is yet another. These are the two big moments that I have witnessed as a reporter. That pin section being undone. We don't care about public corruption anymore, says the Department of Justice with their actions to. We don't care about American citizens being gunned down and whether it was appropriate or not. Those are huge. In between, of course, was the prosecution and indictment of James Comey. Those are the three big moments. And it really calls into question are we a place, are we a country where equal justice under the law based on the facts is our guiding light, as it was for the founders, as it was in the wake of the Civil War when the Justice Department was founded. I will tell you one last thing without going on and on. Sources that I talked to about this shooting, who have no role in the Civil Rights Division, who have no connection to this case, say it has made them heartsick, made them sleepless. They don't have a piece of this action. They are not the experts in this. But over and over again they are saying it sickens them to see their government agree that this is okay to declare in rejection of the evidence in front of us, that everything is fine, this shooting was justified, an American citizen is dead. But we apparently don't care as a country. And when you have this many people fleeing the Justice Department, I wonder what is going to happen in terms of people standing up for that rule of law. What next, if you know what I mean.

[Nicole]

Yeah, I mean, and to say nothing of all of the national security departures. I mean, people like Michael and Andrew who may have never run afoul in a certain case before a grand jury, but who did even quieter work on the national security side, those people have been repelled as well. Thank you. I know it's bleak news, but I really appreciate you opening up about that. I'm sorry for springing that question on you. Andrew sticks around. Michael Feinberg, Carol Lennig, thank you both so much. Carol, for anyone who hasn't read your book, this is as good of a time as any to insist that they do. It's a stunning read on everything we're talking about what's happened inside the Justice Department. It's called injustice. It's available now. Coming up for us, quote Lawfare for Dummies, the conservative leaning Wall Street Journal is the one torching Donald Trump for investigating Fed Chair Jerome Powell. And they're not the only ones pushing back against this idiocy. The backlash to the targeting of the head of the Federal Reserve is our next.

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[Carol Lennig]

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[Nicole]

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[Carol Lennig]

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[Nicole]

So the next time you have a home project, leave it to the pros. Get get [e-mail] at least now we know where the line is. It only took the threat of a complete collapse of the US Economy as we know it to help some businesses and leaders of finance as well as some Republicans find their long lost spines. JP Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon, the head of the bank of New York, the heads of the European Central bank, the bank of England, the bank of Canada, eight other institutions spoke out in defense of Fed Chair Jerome Powell who is facing a criminal investigation from Donald Trump's doj. The right leaning Wall Street Journal editorial board says this in reaction to the news of the criminal probe. Quote, in the annals of political lawfare, there's dumb and then there's the criminal subpoena federal prosecutors delivered Friday to the Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell. President Trump would do himself and the country a big favor by firing those responsible for this fiasco. In the face of the backlash, D.C. u.S. Attorney, former Fox News host Jeanine Pirro attempted to downplay her role in all this. She's in charge of it. It is her investigation into Powell, claiming that subpoenas were only issued because the Fed ignored requests from her office for information. Okay. As for Donald Trump, his comments today were an exercise in projection. Look at those.

[Andrew Weissman]

Either is incompetent or he's crooked. I don't know what he is, but he does.

[Michael Feinberg]

Certainly he doesn't do a very good.

[Andrew Weissman]

Job.

[Nicole]

Incompetent or crooked. I'm going to bring in financial commentator for the Financial Times, writer of the unhedged newsletter. Robert Armstrong is back. Andrew still here as well. Robert, your take?

[I]

Well, I think the best way to think about this is having an independent Federal Reserve is like having a fire extinguisher in your kitchen. Most of the time you don't need it. You might even forget where you put it. But when the smoke starts to billow, you're really glad it's there. And basically what Trump was offering to do was take the fire extinguisher out of the nation's kitchen. And that really struck some fear into people. And we finally, well, well, first we got some great leadership from the chair of the Fed himself with a very plain spoken, concise and firm video message to the president and the country. And then other people fell in line. So I think this was potentially a disaster and we were lucky to avert it.

[Nicole]

Let me ask you about something you and I have gone around and around on and that's the seeming indifference of titans of industry to the demolition of our democracy, the destruction of the rule of law, which we've been covering for the last 42 minutes. And you explanation or articulation to a lot of their indifference and comfort in staying on the sidelines is one, it doesn't affect them Two, the markets are humming along. And three, they're just, you know, they have shareholders or they're going to wait it out. Why does Jerome Powell represent a red line for them?

[I]

I just think that for any business, especially banks, and we saw some of the bankers speak up today, a real inflationary incident. Someone who, you know, we remember the inflationary incident we had just a few years ago. A banker who's my age might remember the inflation of the 1970s. It's just so painful for businesses when monetary policy goes wrong and inflation gets out of control. So at long last, we have heard from a lot of people who before this had been opting to keep their heads below the parapet, as it were.

[Nicole]

I have a thousand more questions for you. I want to bring Andrew into this as well. I have to sneak in a quick break first while I'll be right back on the other side. We're back with Robert and Andrew. Andrew, I wanted to ask you about Jeanine Pirro's response where she said, oh, this is just because he didn't respond to me. Can you undo a criminal investigation you've opened by saying you didn't mean it?

[Michael Feinberg]

Well, you could withdraw the grand jury subpoena and say it's not needed. But let me just comment on that, because one of the things I did when this story broke is I went to the Federal Reserve website and I would welcome people to do that. The Federal Reserve website has chapter and verse about the renovation, about what they're doing and about disinformation and saying what they're not doing. It talks about why there are cost overruns. In other words, it is very transparent. So the idea that the Federal Reserve would not be responding to the Department of Justice and to Jeanine Pirro seems, let's just say, far fetched that that's the response. And it also seems like the answer to that is not a grand jury subpoena. You would try other avenues. So I think that's probably quite fanciful as a statement. And this is one where I just want to point out that in the next 10 days the Supreme Court is going to be hearing about the independence of agencies like the Federal Reserve. So one of the things the administration may have just done is shot itself in the foot because the sort of reaction across the board by Democrats and Republicans that this is a horrendous idea that there's a reason for independence at the Federal Reserve is something that I think is going to resonate and hurt the government in its argument saying that the White House should be able to control everything all the time.

[Nicole]

Robert, there's something about Jerome Powell and this sort of revealed itself during the transition when Jerome Powell just had none of it, had none of the cowering that the Senate and House Republicans have done for 10 years, had none of the fluffing that the right wing media has done for Donald Trump for the better part of 10 years, had none of the, you know, sycophant, I mean, just no nonsense, no kowtowing. And I played it yesterday. He stood next to Donald Trump and literally fact checked him in real time. One, he knows his stuff. Two, he has maybe sort of the silent support of so many of the levers of our very economy, of the global economy. I wonder if you have any insights into whether or not this opening of a criminal investigation into him personally rattled him.

[I]

Well, I've met him once or twice. I would describe him as hard to rattle. And one of the things your comments just then really highlighted is what we've gotten from this experience is a demonstration of the power of having an independent official running the Fed. Fed chairs get an eight year term. Your term on the board of the Fed is even longer. It's an appointment that's the pinnacle of a banker or an economist's career. And the fact that he could speak freely is because the institution is structured to give this official real independence. So what Donald Trump in a kind of incredible own goal has achieved here is demonstrated the power of independence for an agency like the Fed.

[Nicole]

It's such a good point and really pulls the story forward to what the Supreme Court does. Robert Armstrong, it's so nice to see you. Thank you so much for being here today. Andrew Weissman, thank you for spending the whole hour with me. I'm grateful to you, my friend. One more break. We'll be right back. Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton today announced that they are refusing to testify in the GOP led House Oversight Committee's investigation into Jeffrey Epstein in defiance of subpoenas for their testimony. Committee Chairman Republican Congressman James Comer has said he will move to hold them in contempt of Congress. The end result of a process that the Clintons say are, quote, literally designed to result in our imprisonment. In a letter to Comer, the Clintons point out the double standard at play in the GOP led investigation, reminding him that they had already provided sworn statements similar to ones he had accepted from seven or eight other former law enforcement officials. He had also subpoenaed and then excused from testifying before the committee. The Clintons write this, quote, every person has to decide when they have seen or had enough and are ready to fight for this country, its principles and its people, no matter the consequences for us. Now is that time. We'll stay on top of those developments. Coming up next for us, extraordinary new reporting on potential war crimes by the US Military in the Caribbean. Stay with us.

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