← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Legally incomprehensible”
00:43:08
Alicia Menendez — in for Nicolle Wallace — on the escalation of military presence in the Caribbean, the Pentagon's new press corps, and Virginia Giuffre's memoir.
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- [00:01]
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Unknown Male Speaker 1
The connection between the guests on the show is the show.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
All that we do is put together.
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Unknown Male Speaker 1
People who are smart, people who are.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Brave, people who are honest, and lots.
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Unknown Male Speaker 1
Of times people who've never met each.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding.
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Unknown Male Speaker 1
About the moment in which we gather.
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Nicole Wallace
Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.
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Tom Nichols
We got a brief a couple weeks ago on the first three or four strikes and I got to say the administration, the department, Department of Defense, was just tying itself in knots trying to explain what the legal justification was for these kinetic strikes on these boats. I think it's important to recognize also that it's really serious that we, you know, have operations that interdict fentanyl, especially coming to the United States. But that's not this. So I think the administration has really screwed this up.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Hi again, everyone. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. And it is five o' clock here in New York. Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona remarking on this administration's use of the military to strike boats they say are carrying people smuggling drugs, a count that now is up to 10, eight in the Caribbean Sea and two in the eastern Pacific. Those 10 strikes have killed 43 people so far, although there is no independ confirmation of that data. And this afternoon, an escalation in the administration's plans. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has ordered the Navy's most advanced aircraft carrier to the Caribbean, the USS Gerald R. Ford, which is currently deployed in the Mediterranean. As the Wall Street Journal reports, the dispatch of a carrier is the strongest sign yet that the Trump administration envisions expanding the airstrikes that so far have been limited to hitting small vessels to other targets on land and what officials have said is an effort to destroy drug smug smuggling operations and destabilize Venezuela. President Nicolas Maduro's government. The Pentagon was already carrying out a large buildup of combat power in the region. The carrier would enable commanders to carry out airstrikes at a higher tempo and shorten the distance US Planes would have to fly to reach targets on land. This follows Donald Trump yesterday saying his administration could soon plan land strikes in Venezuela. Here are his comments. Note how he does not commit to asking Congress for authorization for using military force.
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Unknown Male Interviewer
The land is going to be next and we may go to the Senate, we may go to the, you know, Congress and tell them about it, but I can't imagine they'd have any problem with it. I think, in fact, while we're here, I think it's a good idea, Pete. You go to Congress, you tell them about it, what are they going to do? Say, gee, we don't want to stop drugs pouring in?
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Trump and his administration have said they have every right to carry out all these strikes, but they have yet to provide evidence to back up those claims. New analysis in the New York Times details how this is a defining example of this White House flaunting its indifference to the law. Quote, the irreversible gravity of killing, coupled with the lack of a substantive legal justification, is bringing into sharper view a structural weakness of law as a check on the American presidency. Even in closed door congressional briefings, according to people familiar with them, officials have provided no detailed legal answers. They are said to have cited drug overdose deaths of Americans and stated that Mr. Trump decided the country was in an armed conflict with drug cartels. They are also said to have pointed to the part of the Constitution that makes the president the commander in chief of the armed forces, without much further elaboration. And that story is where we start this hour. Joining me now, staff writer at the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic daily newsletter, Tom Nichols. He is a professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the US Naval War College where he taught for more than two decades. Also with us, New York Times Pentagon correspondent and MSNBC contributor Helene Cooper. With me at the table, former deputy national Security advisor and President Obama, MSNBC contributor Ben Rhodes, and host of the Independent Americans podcast and founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, Paul Rykoff. Helene, talk to us about the significance of the Pentagon ordering this aircraft carrier strike group to the waters near Venezuela. What does that sense, that message?
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Helene Cooper
Hi. Well, thanks for having me. An aircraft carrier is a ginormous projection of American power. We have been sending aircraft carriers to the Mid east where we had been for 20 years at war. And to turn now and deploy an aircraft carrier sending the Gerald Ford towards Venezuela is a huge statement of intent with an aircraft carrier. American sailors, American troops, American airmen, Navy fighter pilots are better able to strike targets in Venezuela and That's sort of like parking a giant howitzer on the doorstep of, you know, of Nicolas Maduro. It's a, it's a really big deal. It's going to probably take seven days, seven to 10 days for the four to get from Croatia to the Caribbean, the southern Caribbean. But it's still a massive statement of intent for the Trump administration at a time where, as you just pointed out, we have not gotten any kind of congressional authorization for this. President Trump has not gone to Congress for this expanding sort of mission creep that we're seeing now in the southern Caribbean. And this has left many people at the Pentagon very concerned. I was talking with a general just the other day who said, pointed out that the Supreme Court has given President Trump a certain degree of immunity of sort of almost close to blanket immunity. But they sure haven't done that for the generals who and the troops who are carrying out these strikes. And at some point, there is a lot of worry that, you know, that, that we are verging close now to what could be war crimes territory. So there's a lot of worry and there's a, there's almost several officers I talked to today, keep two of them brought up. When is Congress going to step in and sort of exercise its own authority? And Republicans of Congress have been unwilling so far to question this. You're starting to see a little bit more of that now with Senator Rand Paul, Lisa Murkowski, several, several Republican senators now are saying that they want the administration to come in and talk to them about what exactly they're doing. But we have yet to see any real, you know, real accountability or any explanation besides from President Trump and the administration and from Defense Secretary Hexeth beyond we're going after drug cartels.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
And I do Helene, want to get to this question of Congress authorization. But before we do, when you talk about officers who have concerns, it was just a week ago that it was announced that southcom commander Admiral Alvin Halsey was going to step down two years ahead of schedule amid reporting that he had concerns and had raised those concerns about the Venezuela mission and the attacks on the alleged drug boats. So who is now in charge? Who is standing in the way?
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Helene Cooper
Well, what do you mean when you say who and who is in charge of the operation or who is standing? Dan Kane, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has been and Defense Secretary Pete Hexseth have both been sort of carrying this, carrying this. Admiral Halsey had been very concerned. I've been told by sources about target specific targeting. He expressed that through the chain of command to both Dan Kaine, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Kaine, and Pete Hexseth, and that there may other. Be other reasons, but that is. Sources tell me that it's one of the reasons why he decided to retire early. So if you're looking for who's in charge, look to Pete Hexeth and look to General Dan Kane, who is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And that. But there are several. There are many, many other military officials who could at some point, find themselves in harm's way if this ends up in some kind of legal. Legal tangle.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Tom, I want you to just give us some perspective here. What are the other circumstances in which an aircraft carrier have been sent like this?
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Tom Nichols
They're sent during an international crisis. They're a show of force. They're an expression of American commitment. They've been sent during the Syrian crisis, during various crises in the Middle East. It's a big deal to move an aircraft carrier around. And I would point out it's an especially big deal. And this just makes no sense whatsoever. There's a massive war raging in the middle of Europe that is spilling over into the borders of our NATO allies, and the president is going to pull a carrier out of the Mediterranean. That makes no sense. It's militarily incomprehensible that he would do this, but he's decided that he'd rather pick a fight in Latin America than protect our NATO allies.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Apparently, it is militarily incomprehensible. It is also diplomatically incomprehensible. Legally incomprehensible. And I have been watching as this administration has tried to evolve their explanation of why they are doing this. It began as self defense, then it was armed conflict with drug cartels. Then it became Trump's authority as commander in chief. All of the above. None of the above is it. That there is no actual rationale and they are just grasping in the dark.
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Ben Rhodes
There'S just no legal basis for this. And if they're falling all the way back on, well, he's commander in chief, can do whatever he wants. That tells you that there's no rationale. Look, if you're saying that they're drug dealers so we can kill them, that's like saying you can just go and shoot somebody on the street corner selling drugs. Right? I mean, there's. And we should be also clear, look, Venezuela, you've got a dictatorial regime there, but this is not a leading source of drugs coming to the United States. This is not even like a key source of fentanyl coming to the United States or a key base of the larger cartels that are in places like Mexico or they're using transit points like Ecuador. So this feels much more about his ambitions in Latin America. And part of what concerns me is we don't know where this ends. He's made comments about regime change in Venezuela. We have reports of CIA covert operations in Venezuela that has not generally ended well in terms of US Regime change operations recently or in Latin America historically. But we also know he's talked about taking back the Panama Canal. You know, he's talked about strikes in Mexico. Where I would link this to Europe actually is he seems to view Latin America like Vladimir Putin views the former Soviet Union. This is my sphere of influence. I can do whatever I want. But we don't know where this slippery slope is headed. We don't know who these people are who have been killed in boats. There's credible reports that some of these people may have just been fishermen. Right. That should concern people. But we also don't know where this slippery slope is taking us. What happens after a regime change operation in Venezuela, where does that end? And what is striking to me beyond just the absence of any legal basis is there's the absence of any explanation to the American people about what we're doing, why they should care about this, why we should potentially have people in harm's way, how much this might cost, what our objectives are, who's going to run Venezuela if there's a regime change. I mean, you normally, in normal times, which we don't live in, there'd be a lot of expectation from Congress that the President has to give those answers. Thus far, we have these kind of sheepish, occasional voices of concern. This is a massive separation of powers issue for Congress to just be absent from this conversation. And it's a massive question of like, sure, the strikes may look good when Pete Hegseth tweets them out. How's it going to look when we're in the quicksand of another conflict in our own hemisphere?
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Especially given that this is a President who put together a political coalition that was based in part on anti intervention. Right on. America first. So now, now, just to recap what has only happened in the last week, you have him bailing out Argentina and buying Argentine beef, importing Argentine beef. You have an aircraft carrier moving into the Caribbean and you have him floating the possibility of a land strike. That does not sound like an anti interventionist to me.
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Paul Rykoff
No, but it does sound like the plan, and I think he's on plan. He's been telegraphing his punches. He's been saying what he's gonna do since before he was elected. I'm gonna continue to say to anyone who will list, listen, the most important story in America and in the world is that Donald Trump can do whatever he wants with the most powerful military the world has ever seen. Nothing is stopping him. And nothing has stopped him so far. Remember, he hit Yemen, he hit Iran, now he's hitting ships off the coast of Venezuela. He's sending troops into American streets that are being federalized. And Congress hasn't stopped him. His party hasn't stopped him. The Democrats haven't stopped him. Nothing has stopped him. They can't stop him from knocking down half of the White House. So the idea that anything is going to stop him from continuing to push forward, I think is unrealistic. I think he will do strikes in Venezuela. He may put troops on the ground. There may be covert ops already on the ground. This is what he said he's going to do. The question is, what are the Republicans and what are the Democrats and what are the American people going to do to stop him? Or even ask for a rationale? Because you need to know not just why you're killing bad guys, you need to tell the families of American troops why they might die.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
And let's talk about that.
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Paul Rykoff
Why they might die because there is a chance every time you deploy American troops, our people might die. And what are they dying for?
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
You have 5,000 or so sailors, Marines on that aircraft. I mean, if you are them, if you are their family, and the President of the United States has not explained to you why you are being deployed. What are you thinking? What's going through your mind?
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Paul Rykoff
This is the forever war on steroids, right? This is the worst case scenario of Donald Trump with no guardrails. I mean, he's not providing rationales to anyone and he's continuing to avoid Congress. Usually you have an Oval Office address, you talk to Congress, you at least explain why you're going to put our military in harm's way. He's not doing that. And you've got this rise of a whole new generation of chicken hawks that are fine to, you know, think this is some kind of video game or a drone strike when real men and women are harm's way. And that should be maybe the most effective point for Republicans, especially 2025 is so screwed up that Rand Paul is now the voice of reason. But he's right. And we require a rationale. The Constitution requires it. Even though they haven't had a declaration of war since World War II, it's still supposed to work that way.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Right. And I want to pick up Tom on Helene's point about the possibility here of war crimes. I mean, even the fact that there are officers who are having that conversation tells you about the five alarm fire that we are in because the Trump administration claims they can lawfully kill people simply because they are suspected of drug trafficking, like enemy troops, instead of arresting them for prosecution. Does that match your understanding of the law?
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Tom Nichols
No, not American law and not international treaties to which we are a signatory. Basically, the President and I want to kind of foot stomp behind Paul here about a plan. The American President has said, I can point the US Military any place I want and kill anyone I want. That eventually is going to become a principle in the domestic use of the military. He is acclimating people to the notion that the military is his private army, unconstrained by law, unconstrained by norms, unconstrained by American traditions. And that I think, I don't really think this has anything to do with drugs. I mean, sometimes I wonder how far he's going to go to stop the release of the Epstein files and how many distractions he's going to throw at us. But this is about getting out from under his already dismal record, his record low approval ratings, his struggling with a scandal, and he is now saying, I am going to acclimate the American public to the use of military force anywhere I deem it appropriate under any circumstances. And I may, well, the President may be thinking, I may well have us in a war by the time the elections roll around, which will enable me to say any opposition to me and my party is basically treason and unpatriotic.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Tom Nichols, your brain and my brain have gone to the exact same place. And one of the threads that I have been following, Ben Rhodes, is here. You have the President and Republicans calling any protesters. They are acting as though the folks who came out for no Kings are affiliated with terrorist organizations. That is a thing that they have been saying in public. If the rationale they are using for these strikes in the Caribbean are that these folks are not just drug aligned, but terrorist aligned. And they are making that same argument about Americans in the street protesting. What is to stop them from using the rationale that they are currently using to violate international law, to violate domestic law here at home?
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Ben Rhodes
They've already used it.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Yes.
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Ben Rhodes
Keep in mind that early in the administration, they were deporting Venezuelans who should have been here legally, citing the Alien Enemies act, based on the notion that Trende Aragua, a gang that most Americans had never heard of and so started running on a loop on Fox News, had invaded the United States at the to the Venezuelan government, which the courts found to be ridiculous. But the point is, they were already drawing a link between what they were going to do against the Maduro regime, against what they wanted to do against people here. They have blended the rhetoric of Stephen Miller, calls the Democratic Party a terrorist organization. They use the same language to talk about antifa that they're using to describe boats. The point is they're creating one big other, one big enemy. The enemy within, the enemy without. And it's terrorists and it's the radical left, because they'll use that language too, I'm sure. And they're just legitimizing the idea to just totally echo what Paul and Tom said, that Donald Trump can treat the United States military, which is supposed to be an apolitical military with civilian control and operating under a legal basis, that it's basically his private militia. And we should also look at the fact that they're cleaned out generals that they don't like.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Yes.
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Ben Rhodes
They're trying to promote people that will do these things. They're probably happy that the head of southcom left because he was uncomfortable that he might be violating international law.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Can I also just ask you real quickly before we go, the fact that they repatriated the two folks on the boat who actually survived, that has red flags all over it for me. Does it for you?
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Ben Rhodes
Absolutely. We used to interdict these boats and they were criminals. We'd take them here. If these people are such dangerous drug traffickers and the people that survived the shot that we took at that boat can just be sent back to their countries, how are they such dangerous terrorists? They're not. Right. At worst, they're far from the United States. They're not even crossing the border in Mexico. Here. Some of them may just be fishermen, too. That should concern people. It should concern us that we might just be killing fishermen off the coast of not just Venezuela, but Colombia, too. And so that tells you a lot. This is not Al Qaeda. At worst, this is a drug trafficking issue that could be dealt with through interdiction. There's no need to be blowing these boats out of the water. But I think that that is to condition people for the normalization of the use of the military for whatever Donald Trump wants it to be used for and potentially using it across Latin America, not just in Venezuela in ways that could cause a lot of problems.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
And you're right, we've been hearing the president talk a lot about Colombia. All right, no one's going anywhere. When we return. With so many military stories in the news, you might think now would be a good time for veteran Pentagon reporters voters to be allowed to do their jobs. But not under Pete Hegseth, the right wing outlets he's granting access to after a short break, all because the former Fox News weekend anchor in charge of the Department of Defense couldn't bear journalists doing their jobs. Also ahead, the heartbreaking story of One of Jeffrey Epstein's best known victims, Virginia Giuffre, who was just 16 years old when she met Epstein while working at Donald Trump's Mar A Lago resort. The co author of her brand new post homelessly published memoir is going to be our guest later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after quick break break. Stay with us.
- [21:18]
LifeLock Announcer
It's Cybersecurity awareness month and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity, use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, LifeLock is your best choice. LifeLock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free trial@lifelock.com Specialoffer terms apply.
- [21:47]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with former White House Communications director Anthony Scaramucci.
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Paul Rykoff
We are a beautiful, colorful mosaic of.
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Ben Rhodes
People and we are exactly what Lincoln said, the last best hope for mankind.
- [22:07]
Nicole Wallace
The Best People with Nicole Wallace. Listen now. For early access and free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
No congressional approval, no due process, no evidence presented to the American people whatsoever. Now would be a really great time to have a seasoned journalist actually inside the Pentagon asking questions. And yet this week marks the beginning of a so called next generation for the Pentagon press corps. A collection of right wing outlets who did what other media companies would not, sign on to measures that overwhelmingly restrict access. A spokesman for the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, applauded the departure of what he called activists who masqueraded as journalists and the elevation of these outlets, among others. And speaking of rogue judges, would you consider appointing somebody at DOJ maybe to investigate the judges that allowed for the political persecution of you, your family and your supporters during the Biden administration?
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Unknown Male Interviewer
I love you. Who are you?
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
I'm Cara from Lindell tv.
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Unknown Male Interviewer
Well, that's just a very nice question, and it's not a setup. I have no idea who you are, but I appreciate that question.
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Unknown Male Speaker 1
Part of that involved, though, re engaging Russia in diplomatic relations, something that previous leaders lacked the conviction to do. So what gave you the moral courage.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
And conviction to step forward and lead that?
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Unknown Male Interviewer
Well, I love this guy. Who are you with?
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
One American News, sir.
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Unknown Male Interviewer
Well, that's why I like him. One American News does a great job. That's very. I like the question. I think it's a very good question.
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Paul Rykoff
I want to see your response on the leftist media.
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Ben Rhodes
They're trying to hide the mugshots that.
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Paul Rykoff
Are featured on the front bottom. Rapists, murderers, pedophiles. What do you think of that? Now? Aren't they proving to be the enemy of the people?
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Unknown Male Interviewer
Well, I guess they are. I guess they are.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Right.
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Ben Rhodes
Thank you.
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Unknown Male Interviewer
Who are you with?
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Paul Rykoff
I like your hat. By the way, who are you with? The Gateway Pundit, sir.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
By the way, the voice in that last exchange from the Gateway Pundit, he's a new member of the Pentagon's press corps. We are back with Tom Helene, Ben and Paul Helene Cooper. I want to understand what this means for you, for your work, and what it means for the American people who rely on you and your work and others like you to get us the truth of what is happening inside that building.
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Helene Cooper
Well, it means I just have to work harder for the American people. They will still get what we have. What reporters who traditionally cover the Pentagon have been giving them for as long as I've been, you know, as long as the Pentagon has been there. We will still continue to report and cover our beats. We'll still talk to our sources. We'll meet them outside of the building. What we will not be able to do is to produce the news from inside the building. It just means on one level, it means you work a lot harder as a reporter covering the Pentagon. It means you're meeting people at night. It means you're looking for different ways to get scoops. You're not going to be bumping into a general in the hallway. But we've done this before. We did this during COVID We did this during the pandemic when there was a lockdown. I know how to cover my beef from outside the building. It does, however, provide. It's just yet another. Another roadblock between what officials are doing and the American people on whose behalf they are conducting their business. Pete Hegseth, the Defense Secretary, has, from the get go, established an adversarial relationship. We've always had. We always have adversarial relationships with the people we cover. That's how it's supposed to be. But he has established a particularly adversarial relationship with reporters, and he had. So he came up with these restrictions that would prevent us from being able to do our jobs to the best of our ability. So you see what has happened. Most of the news organizations, including Fox, including several right wing organizations that are more to the right and used to be more in favor with President Trump, have also not agreed to sign this new pledge.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
Tom Nichols, I want you to take a listen to another pressing question, this one posed by Lindell tv. Will you guys also consider releasing the president's fitness plan? He actually looks healthier than ever before, healthier than he did eight years ago. And I'm sure everybody in this room could agree. Is he working out with Bobby Kennedy and is he eating less McDonald's? I can confirm the President is in very good shape. I mean, am I living in Hungary? Is this Viktor Orban? Like, what is actually happening here? And what is the danger, Tom Nichols, of the fact that there are Americans who are living in that reality? That is all the news they are getting, that is all the information they know, and that now becomes normal to them.
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Tom Nichols
Every one of these press conferences becomes a Saturday Night Live cold open. Except that you couldn't read, you couldn't write something like this. You know, the writers at Saturday Night Live would throw that one out as just too over the top. The danger in all this is the American public isn't being informed about things. We're potentially about to go to war. We're moving a carrier into the Caribbean. We're stripping it away from the European theater. Does anyone care? Is anyone going to ask? Of course, someone did ask Carolyn Levitt about who planned the summit that's now been canceled. Would have been a very risky and difficult summit to have it in Budapest. And when a reporter asked her who planned it, she said, your mom, because that's the level. You know, the kind of. Level of. Of interaction and maturity that we've come to expect from this administration. But these are. And, you know, Paul's absolutely right. You move people into theaters like this every time someone's employed. People could get hurt and killed, and yet no one seems to care. I think this White House and the Defense Department are beyond adversarial. I mean, it's not just the sort of normally tense relationship between government agencies and the press. This is beyond. This is a Pentagon in a White House that really views other Americans, American citizens who are reporting part of the free press, considers them to be its enemy. Not just adversaries, not just people they have to deal with as part of their normal job, but really enemies of the president and his movement. And, you know, the whole. I mean, it's. It's crazy. I mean, that's the only word for it. This whole thing is lunacy.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
It is lunacy. And, Ben, it's not limited to reporters. The Pentagon is restricting access to Congress. Nearly all Defense Department personnel now need prior approval before engaging with state or federal lawmakers.
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Ben Rhodes
This is a organization that is the most powerful military in the history of the world with a trillion dollar budget and millions of people that report to it. And they're essentially walling it off from any oversight from Congress, any oversight from the press. And look, I had an adversarial relationship with Helene when I was in the White House. But I'll tell you something. I learned some things from some stories that she wrote about what was going on at the Pentagon, right? I mean, in a good way, in a healthy way, right? The press is a part of accountability here. And look, I have great confidence in the ability of people like Colleen to do their jobs, but it's much harder. But there's something else that is dangerous here. There's the show of the Lindell TV person in the Pentagon press briefing room asking questions of the general. A lot of Americans are going to see that, and it's going to look familiar. And to us, it may look like North Korea and may look ridiculous, but they are controlling the pageantry. There's an awesome amount of power to the backdrop of the Pentagon, to the guy in a uniform standing at a podium talking about how great the strikes are that President Trump is authorizing. To a reporter standing up and asking that question. I would not diminish the power of that kind of pageantry. These people know one thing. They know how to put on a show, and they're turning the entire government into their show. And they're shrinking the islands of information that are available to people who want to know why the heck we've got a carrier going to the Caribbean. Or imagine that the waste, fraud and abuse that could be happening at the Pentagon, that is going to be harder to uncover now, too. And so this is part of a deliberate effort to remove democratic accountability from anything they do, including in the most important agencies of the government, the Justice Department and the Pentagon. And that should worry everybody.
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Cara (MSNBC Host)
When you use the word pageantry, it reminded me, this is a president who ran the Miss Universe system or owns the rights of the Miss Universe system. I mean, that is his basis. And when you see Hegseth asking all of these generals to travel so that he can give them a personal TED Talk, it's a reminder that they do understand the power of these visuals. The fact that you will not have real reporters inside the Pentagon, what does that mean for military families?
- [31:41]
Paul Rykoff
Everybody needs to understand. Don't laugh. Wake up. I mean, this is actually the most serious thing happening in America. If the President wants to do whatever he wants with the most powerful, powerful military in the world, this is what you do. You remove anyone who asks hard questions. You remove anyone who provides oversight. You remove congressional access. This is on plan. They're ahead of plan. Imagine how much farther they'd be on their plan if Hegset wasn't screwing up all the time. But this has always been part of it to remove the Pentagon press corps and attack them and diminish them and delegitimize them and replace them. So not only is cnn, MSNBC and AP out, Newsmax is out, Fox is out, and they're replaced with the MyPillow Guys TV network. So think about this. Not only are they controlling access here, when caskets come home with dead Americans in them, it will be the MyPillow Guys TV network covering it. That's how serious this is. And it's always been a model for what they want to do with the rest of the government. This is the lead element. This is the tip of the spear. The Pentagon is the biggest piece on the chessboard and they've got it. And they're trying to expand that power and replicate it across the government. This is the plan in full swing. And so far nothing is to be going slowing them down. And they're actually picking up steam.
- [32:50]
Cara (MSNBC Host)
Thank you for laying the stakes so bare. Tom Nichols, Helene Cooper, Ben Rhodes, Paul Rykoff. Thank you all. When we return, a powerful memoir out this week from one of Jeffrey Epstein's best known survivors. The late Virginia Giuffre. The book is called Nobody's Girl, A Memoir of surviving abuse and fighting for Justice. Giuffre's co author is going to be our guests right after a short break.
- [33:15]
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- [33:45]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week she sits down with radio host Charlamagne Tha God.
- [33:59]
Paul Rykoff
I feel like there's one branch of.
- [34:01]
Ben Rhodes
Government we have left that hasn't failed to us thus far. And that branch of government is the people.
- [34:08]
Nicole Wallace
The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [34:15]
Ben Rhodes
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast why Is this Happening? Life After Cars, co authors Sarah Goodyear and Doug Gordon. Our argument is not that cars by themselves are a bad technology, but that we have over deployed them in a way that is completely harmful to our own lives, to the planet, to political cohesion to society in general.
- [34:35]
Unknown Male Speaker 1
If somebody's gonna say I'm gonna take away your car or your ability to park wherever you want, or anything about that, the ability to go as fast as you want, that is an existential threat.
- [34:47]
Ben Rhodes
That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.
- [34:53]
Cara (MSNBC Host)
Since she first went public with her abuse at the hands of convicted sex offenders Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell in 2011, Virginia Duffrey has been one of the leading voices in the calls for accountability for the survivors of their crimes. Six months after her tragic death by suicide, Virginia Giuffre's calls for accountability continue with the release of her memoir this week. It's called Nobody's A Memoir of Surviving Abuse and Fighting for Justice. The book details the harrowing abuse she endured as a child and as a teen by convicted sex offenders Epstein and Maxwell, and by rich and powerful men in their circle. And speaking out so loudly and publicly about what she endured, Virginia writes this quote, I hope I have done some good. Seeking to silence me, my powerful enemies have threatened to bankrupt Me and even to have me killed. I haven't stopped talking. When I was a sex slave, I had no say. I have promised myself that I will never have no say again. I want to bring in Amy Wallace. She is the co author of Virginia Giuffre's Nobody's Girl and memoir of surviving abuse and fighting for justice. Thank you so much for being here and congratulations on this absolutely incredible book. How important was it to Virginia to have her full story out there?
- [36:08]
Unknown Male Speaker 1
Oh, it was incredibly important. And we know exactly how important it was because she sent me and another member of our team an email a couple of weeks before she died saying, in the case of my passing, I need you to publish this book. It's important not just for me, but for all survivors of sexual abuse.
- [36:27]
Cara (MSNBC Host)
Writing a book you write with someone else is always an intimate exercise. This one even more so. Tell me why.
- [36:37]
Unknown Male Speaker 1
Well, obviously she was going to describe some of the worst things that can happen to a person, and she'd had a lot of them. So it was intimate in that way, but also important that she knew we needed to interrogate and corroborate all of the things that she was going to say. She had had a lot of threats in her life, as you referenced, both death threats and threats of legal action that could bankrupt her or just keep her in court reliving the most horrible things she'd ever experienced over and over again. So we knew we had to be very careful. We spent four years together on this book. I got to know her very well. I went and lived in her family's guest room twice in Australia so that I could get to know her family and her family life. So it was a very, very intimate, close relationship to that point.
- [37:29]
Cara (MSNBC Host)
About corroborating her story and really interrogating her story, I don't need to tell you there's been so much talk about an Epstein client list filled with names of men. Epstein trafficked women like Virginia. To you and you write this quote. Virginia's firsthand account of her time in Epstein and Maxwell's orbit was supported by thousands of pages of sworn depositions and Epstein's flight logs. These documents contain the full names of many of the men who Virginia alleged she had been trafficked to. To the best of your knowledge, does a list exist?
- [38:01]
Unknown Male Speaker 1
Well, I think this term, you know, the Epstein client list sort of implies that Epstein sat down one day with a fountain pen and. And wrote a list of all his memories of all the men he trafficked these women to. I don't know that that happened. But what does exist, and it exists in the so called Epstein files that the Department of Justice has in its possession, are not just Virginia's accounts of the abuse she suffered and who she was trafficked to, but other women's as well. Many, many people who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And she was an abuser too. Let's not forget, she sexually abused girls. Many of these women have come forward bravely and talked to the FBI repeatedly. There's a scene in the book where Department of Justice officials thank them and get the women together in a room and they thank them for their help and say, please keep coming forward, please keep helping us. And Virginia says, I know, I talked to them after that. And I know a lot of my survivor sisters, that's what they call each other fondly, I know they did as well. So these testimonies exist. The names of the people that were in those houses, on those private jets, at that ranch in New Mexico, those names exist and those accounts exist, as well as perhaps videotapes that were perhaps inside the house in the Manhattan mansion in New York that the authorities raided at the time, same moment that they arrested Epstein at Teterboro Airport. So there's there. I have no personal knowledge of what is in the Epstein files other than what Virginia told me that she told them. But this investigation has been going on for years. I mean, she came forward publicly with her name in 2011, and there were people who came forward before that privately and told the FBI what they had experienced. So I don't know whether it's one file cabinet or 25 file cabinets, but there's a voluminous amount of information and that's why people are clamoring for it. In addition to the fact that Donald Trump campaigned on the plank that he was going to release the Epstein files.
- [40:13]
Cara (MSNBC Host)
There were many details in the book that broke my heart. One of the details that broke my heart is that now infamous picture of Virginia with Prince Andrew that she took it because she knew that if her mom knew she had met someone that famous, she would want to be able to see it. And she runs to go get those of us who are old enough to remember her. Funsaver disposable camera, which is a reminder to me, she and I are exactly the same age. She was a kid. And just to underscore that point, can we put up the photo, this now infamous photo of her next to Naomi Campbell. She is a child at that party. How could you be at that party and see this child, Amy, and not ask, what is she doing here and what is going on? Because. Because what that story about her getting the camera with Prince Andrews and that photo, both remind me is, yes, it is Epstein, yes, it is Maxwell. But it is an entire network of people around them who saw things like this and chose to look the other way. And that is part of the devastation of Virginia Giuffre's story.
- [41:15]
Unknown Male Speaker 1
Absolutely, absolutely. And that picture that you just had up on the yacht at the 30th birthday party of a famous model, see that blue shirt right there? That's Ghislaine Maxwell lurking beside her. So not only does Virginia look very young, I believe she's 17 at that time, but you can see she looks very, very young. And that light blue shirt right there, that's Ghislaine. So, yes, there's evidence here. And this particular picture, you know, just surfaced late, much later, when Virginia was making these claims and people were disbelieving her. And a celebrity photographer goes through his files and goes, whoa, wait a minute, I think that's Virginia Giuffre. And it was made public. It ran in papers in the UK and papers here saying, oh, actually, she's telling the truth. And this is a period where over and over, she and others were being told they were trash, they weren't to be believed, they were lying, they were, they were money grubbing people who just wanted to get paid. But time and again, when Virginia said something happened, proof would come forward that it had happened. She had a remarkable memory and she was a truth teller.
- [42:33]
Cara (MSNBC Host)
And I want to talk about part of what was found, the passports that Jeffrey Epstein was found in possession of. I do have to sneak in a quick break. Amy Wallace is sticking with me. We'll be right back. We are back with Amy Wallace, co author of Virginia Giuffre's new book, Nobody Is Girl. Amy, this is from the book about the day Epstein was arrested. Back in 2019 in his new York townhouse. His New York townhouse was raided. Federal agents found, quote, three passports belonging to Epstein from the United States, from Israel and from Austria. That last one, which was expired, appeared to have a photo of Epstein, but included a fake name and listed a home address in Saudi Arabia. You write this was a man who'd prepared a getaway plan. Why did that detail feel important to include?
- [43:22]
Unknown Male Speaker 1
Because it's really laudable that law enforcement at that point got him. He had ways of getting away, and if he had any warning, he would have the previous time he'd been investigated and basically escaped with a slap on the wrist from for procuring a prostitute and was allowed to be imprisoned again, in quotes, but leave during the day to go abuse more girls. You know, he clearly had a warning because they. They raided his house and there were wires sticking out of the wall and the computers were gone, the trophy closet was gone of pictures of young girls.
- [44:00]
Paul Rykoff
But.
- [44:01]
Unknown Male Speaker 1
But in Manhattan, when they pick him up and Teeter Borough Airport, they also are battering down the door of his Manhattan townhouse. And theoretically, that means that inside those Epstein files that we are calling the files are whatever they found there, which could be videotapes. There were video cameras in every bedroom and every bathroom, I'm told, inside that house. Virginia, in the book, describes being shown the room where the monitors all existed. And Epstein sang. The whole idea here is to gather information that could be useful to me to use against other men. So this was all a sort of elaborate game to not only traffic young girls, underage girls, but also to get power for Epstein to be able to do whatever he needed to do, whatever he was trying to accomplish, because he had information on powerful people.
- [44:56]
Cara (MSNBC Host)
Amy, I only have 30 seconds left, but I can't let you leave without asking you what you think justice looks like for Virginia.
- [45:04]
Unknown Male Speaker 1
What justice looks like is for people to pay attention to the fact that in this culture, we fetishize young girls. And that hasn't died with Epstein or Maxwell. And Virginia was determined to shine a light on that problem. And I wish she were here sitting here talking to you instead of me. This is her book, and it's her triumph. But if it doesn't anything to shed light on that issue, that's what she.
- [45:30]
Cara (MSNBC Host)
Would want as a mother of two young girls. I thank you. I thank Virginia. Amy Wallace, thank you so much for joining us. The book is Nobody's A Memoir of Surviving Abuse and Fighting for Justice. And when we return, jarring before and after pictures of Donald Trump's week of demolition at the White House, we are getting a new view of Donald Trump's massive demolition of the east wing of the White House. This is what the view from above the White House complex looked like less than a month ago. These are satellite images from Planet Labs pbc. And this is from yesterday. You can see the absolute scope of the project. The east wing is entirely gone. All for Trump's ballroom with a $300 million price tag. TRUMP himself said the ballroom wouldn't, quote, interfere with the current building. Quote, it'll be near it, but not touching it. Well, so much for that. Now a group of Senate Democrats is demanding answers about Trump's actions and whether any of the donors could be engaging in quid pro quo arrangements. Those donors include Amazon, Apple, our parent company, Comcast, Meta Palantir Technologies, cryptocurrency players, and tobacco companies, among others. Another break for us. We'll be right back. The city of Chicago has been ground zero in Donald Trump's assault on blue American cities, with the National Guard on on patrol and ICE officers snatching ordinary people, even US citizens, from off the streets. Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker has been a vocal and forceful opponent of all of it, and he is Nicole's guest on the new episode of the Best People podcast. You can scan the QR code to subscribe to MSNBC Premium and listen to our conversation with Governor Pritzker right now. Thank you for spending part of this Friday with us. We are so grateful.