Chris Hayes (2:47)

Eleven months ago, I inherited a mess, a Democrat administration. This is what the Biden administration allowed to happen to our country. Do you remember when Joe Biden, the last administration and their allies in Congress under the Biden administration, Democrat politicians under Biden and the steep increase in premiums being demanded by the Democrats and it's their fault. It is not the Republicans fault, it's the Democrats fault and the Democrat party, the Radical left Democrats, 30 to 100% under Biden. The Democrat inflation disaster, $15,000 under Democrat rule. The worst thing that the Biden administration did to our have a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year, God bless you all.

Nicole Wallace (3:37)

Guy needs to be in like a support group with the rest of us who miss the last normal president. Infinitely more important, though, for our purposes, the man who gave that speech last night, more important than him and anything he said or did or how he said and did it were the people he was addressing, the American people and how the American people say they feel right now. According to the latest polling from NPR, PBS and Marist, 57% of all Americans feel, quote, pessimistic about what is ahead for the world next year, compared to 43% who feel optimistic. Those numbers were almost exactly flipped one year ago when not for nothing, Joe Biden was president. NPR points this out. Quote, 70% in the survey said the area where they live is not very affordable or not affordable at all for an average family. That's up from 45% when Marist asked the same question in June. A whopping increase and a sign of how much people are feeling the economic pinch. Yet last night, Trump told Americans how to feel. He gave SNL so much material to work with and he spoke for his accomplishments instead of letting them speak for themselves. Wonder why. It's where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. Former senior advisor to President Biden and Vice President Harris, former mayor of New Orleans, our friend Mitchell Andrews here also joining us, my friend and colleague, senior political analyst, contributing host on Pod Save America and the host of the podcast Runaway Country. Alex Wagner is here. And with me at the table in studio, former Republican Congressman David Jolley of Florida. He is running for governor of Florida as a Democrat. David Jolley, it's nice to see you. What did you think?

David Jolly (5:23)

It's great to be with you. I watched the president's address and I've never been more optimistic that Democrats can now win statewide in the state of Florida. And I mean that for a very specific reason. Nicole. I've now done 140 events since I was probably last with you, running for governor of the state of Florida. And we talk about the affordability crisis. The whole world knows we have an affordability crisis largely defined around access to housing, the ability to stay in one's housing, access to health care, health care, the cost of health care, utilities, transportation. And so what we saw last night was a president who is completely out of touch, who is creating this gilded presidency so detached from the reality of people on the ground. And I would also suggest that from my experience in the last year, it's far greater than just an affordability crisis. I am convinced, heartbreakingly convinced, that we are at a generational inflection point in the economy where we are, we are losing the middle, the economy is slipping away from people. I think something we've been unable to measure in the past several years is we've already lost upward mob, a lot of people. This has been a bit of a discovery. You know, look, when, when, when Mitch was working with the President and Vice President, we could make the case, as Joe Biden was leaving office, that real wages were going up, inflation was coming down, more people were going to work than ever before. Access to housing, retirement security was still at all time highs, but people didn't feel it. People didn't feel it. There's an anxiety and an anger right now that people's access to housing is slipping away, that the upward mobility is slipping away. People are uncertain about their healthcare. And it is real. It is real and it is crippling people. And what we saw last night was a president who said, I don't believe you and you shouldn't believe yourself either. When people are desperate, desperately in need of hope, they need someone to offer them hope. He didn't offer hope last night. He told people they were wrong. And when people are looking for hope, they need somebody they can trust. Donald Trump's approval ratings and trust ratings are in the basement at an all time low. People don't trust him. And so what I saw last night was a president not only disconnected from reality, but the leader of a party that has continued to empower and elevate him in this moment of generational crisis. Look, to put it in raw political terms, there is incredible opportunity for Democrats right now if we respond to this anxiety. But if we put it in historic terms, this is a nation on the brink of some real trouble. If that's the current leadership we have.

Nicole Wallace (7:48)

You know, Mitch, I'd like you to pick up on that. I mean, I've been interviewing and covering Trump voters for I don't know which Alex has too, 10, 11 years. And Trump's wealth was. He was a political unicorn in that he was this incredibly wealthy guy who was crass in a way that made people feel seen for his rebuke of elites and political correctness. But his wealth was alluring. He made it feel contagious. In his second presidency, he has actually gilded the Oval Office. There are on one wall 37 additional gold things. I don't even know what you call them. Doilies and I don't know what you call them things, not counting the picture frames and his indifference to not just economic ambition, which is the analysis of how the so called manosphere felt drawn to him, but people's economic disposal bear feels like, as David Jolly saying, an epic example of political betrayal from the leader of a party that just got elected on the issue of economic promises.

Chris Hayes (9:05)

Well, first of all, I think David's comments were on point. I would just mention a couple of things. Not everybody in the country thinks in political terms. The President of the United States is supposed to be the president for everybody. That person is supposed to emote and ethos that, that makes the country feel good about itself and lifts itself up. And what's so sad and tragic about the address last night is you're watching a guy really, to the extent that he ever had a touch lose a touch. His fastball's gone. He can't, he can't pitch a curveball. He threw a Hail Mary and it, and it just went through the floor. But as we come upon this Christmas season, which for so many people in the country, whether the people of faith or not, is a time of renewal, of rebirth, of there is a. And I know David feels this in Florida because I've traveled the country as well, people are thirsting for us to put aside all the chaos, all the hate, all the corruption, all this stuff that just feels really, really icky now. It's manifesting itself in people's real need to find some sort of security in their economic life, which they don't have. But I agree with David and it's actually falling into a malaise that's much more complicated and difficult. That's going to be hard to come out of. And what the country's thirsting for is a leader that's going to realize that and that's going to help us come back together. But what they saw last night was just the most banal example of a man that is just delusional, out of touch, just a rampant liar not much of what he said was actually accurate at all. In fact, we can, you know, when you fact check this thing, you know that on the day that Joe Biden left office and Donald Trump assumed office, that inflation was at 3%. It had come down from 9%. It wasn't going up, it was going down. Joe Biden was producing 336,000 jobs on average a month. Donald Trump is not. So now inflation's gone up, cost has gone up. The number of people that are. That are not working is going up. And when you go to tell people how they're supposed to be feeling and they're experiencing something very different, and you're sitting in a building which you knocked down half of, but you're building another $400 million building, and you're giving a tax cut, the wealthy and these people are struggling. You can't get upset that they're going like, look what the hell is really going on. And you can see it in the numbers, because the American people know what time it is. And I think they have displayed that in the polling numbers that we have. But it was just a really. A shame. I really feel sorry right now. A sadness. And if it wasn't so tragic and serious, it would almost be laughable. But, you know, we're at an inflection point, and we need to decide in this country, Republican, Democrat, progressive, conservative, that we've gotta get our feedback underneath us and demand more from the president and of course, from the Supreme Court, from the Senate, and from Congress to get some stuff done that's gonna help the American people.

Nicole Wallace (11:58)

You know, Alex, what is so clear and obvious to anyone that watched is still being processed, right? Like processed food on the right. It goes into the propaganda machine and it comes out. I didn't watch enough of it afterward, but it comes out laundered. It comes out smelling better than what everyone could see with their own eyes. In some ways, Trump would have been better off not asking for time and letting at least his supporters see the propaganda coverage of the speech. But they didn't make that choice. They asked for time. He gave a speech that Dick Cheney's cardiologist, Dr. Jonathan Reiner, described this way. Quote, the tone of the speech doesn't quite match the festive background. The pace of this address is manic. I'm seriously concerned about the health of the president. No one should be happy to see the president like this. He looks unwell, you know, and if this is first term or he hadn't been a TV star, maybe you could say the Nerves of an Oval Office live TV event were to blame. But he came from, you know, show business. So I, you know, I have no idea why that was, but it was a disturbing performance.

Alex Wagner (13:17)

I watched it because I was wondering if we were going to be going to war with Venezuela. I mean, really, like, that's right. That's the bar. It's like, oh, we're not going to, we're not going to win an sort of unprovoked war that nobody asked for. That's good. It's just, in the words of Stephen Colbert, old grandpa rumble pants back at it again. That's Stephen Colbert's line, not mine. I mean, here's a guy that did more harm to the very thing he's trying to improve, which is his standing among the American public and the feeling that they need to convey from the White House that they care. I mean, all he did was undermine the, any semblance of, of competence on that issue by lying to the American people and asserting like, the most galling things that Democrats were to blame for the increase in health care that's coming on January 1st. I mean, his own party is literally fracturing in Congress right now over the cost, over doing something on enhanced Obamacare subsidies. They cannot figure it out. Nobody in this universe believes that Donald Trump is trying to do anything about health care. He's not that the Republican Party has any kind of solution for the problem. And the Democrats didn't literally try and shut down the government for a month and a half to solve the problem. I mean, what he was doing defied reality. But independent of that, Nicole, I mean, he just, he did seem so unhinged. He seemed angry. He looked like he was going to get swallowed up by the Christmas trees. I mean, what was the point? And then the fact that it had to be delivered so quickly, not because of the fierce urgency of this White House, but because CBS had a three hour Survivor finale to air and basically the network said, you got 20 minutes, dude, go for it, and whatever you can't do, we're gonna cut off. That's the reality of this incredibly shrinking presidency.

Nicole Wallace (15:07)

On this issue of health care, Alex, this is what the New York Times reports. Once again, healthcare proves to a bitter political pill for the gop. Deep Republican struggles on national health policy were starkly evident on Capitol Hill in recent days as a handful of Republicans in both chambers broke with their party to join Democratic efforts to extend pandemic era health insurance subsidies set to expire at the end of the year. Their defections were not enough. To save the subsidies, which Republican majorities in both chambers refused to preserve. But they did reflect major divisions in the gop, which has repeatedly failed to produce a realistic and workable alternative to the aca, also known as Obamacare. And they pushed the fight over health care costs into the midterm election year, putting Republicans under intense pressure to deliver in a difficult political environment on a subject that has proved among their greatest vulnerabilities. I think you can go back and John Boehner was the first one to say, once people have Obamacare, they will never, ever, ever, ever let it go. You cannot take away an entitlement. And the inability to understand the fights that have been had and that they have lost. And that as much as Trump has turned things upside down, that is not one of the things that's upside down. When people lose health care for their sick kids or parents or spouses, there's no more effing around with this whole experiment in magavision or whatever it is that we're doing. And I wonder, Alex, if you think that there'll be any sort of shifting in anyone wanting to save their own skin politically and being for anything that the Republican voters are clamoring for.

Alex Wagner (16:51)

Well, like I will just say out of my podcast, I interviewed someone whose premiums are going from $120 a month to $868 a month. Okay, we're talking about this. Largely, the health care conversation sits adjacent to the affordability conversation. But money is fungible. You can use it or not use it wherever. On groceries, on health care, on school supplies, on kids clothes, whatever. The idea that this is not central to the affordability crisis that's plaguing America is like to not understand that is to be is to have your head in the sand. And there are at least four moderate Republicans in the House who joined with Democrats to sign a discharge petition who realize this could be the make or break thing. People keep thinking about it as like the Obamacare fight of yours. This is about the American public being able to survive. Right. And having to make choices. The New York Times has been doing incredible reporting on people literally questioning what they're doing with their lives. If they can't afford to go to the doctor anymore and they can't afford to put food on the table, independent of the sort of ethical lapse that that represents in terms of the GOP not wanting to do anything. It is a moral stain on the fabric of this country, and it is not something that people forget because they are living that reality every single day.

Nicole Wallace (18:06)

I feel like we have the perfect people to have that conversation. I want to hear from you, Mitch, and you, David, on it. I have to sneak in a break first. Ahead for us, what Donald Trump said after his speech last night. That shows that Susie Wiles is for whatever else is going on there after those 11 sit down interviews, very much pulling the strings behind the scenes, even after her very blunt assessment of Donald Trump himself and his cabinet. Plus, on the eve of the deadline for the government to release the Jeffrey Epstein files, there is extensive new reporting on just how close and interconnected Donald Trump and the deceased sex offender were. We'll talk with a reporter who broke that new development ahead. And later in the broadcast, an Ms. Now exclusive with former first lady Michelle Obama will show you what she had to say about getting people involved in the fight to protect democracy. Jonathan Capehart joins us with that fantastic conversation. But before the break, we want to show you something special with some help from our good friend Martin Sheen. I was lucky enough to sit down with Sheen for a live conversation as part of the Best back in October. Now the iconic actor and activist is lending his voice and his stature to our latest we the People campaign. We couldn't be happier and prouder to share it with you for the first time. Take a look.

David Jolly (19:25)

I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people, a.

Chris Whipple (19:38)

Democracy in a republic, a sovereign nation.

Chris Hayes (19:43)

Of many sovereign states, a perfect union.

David Jolly (19:48)

One and inseparable, established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to.

Chris Whipple (20:14)

Respect its flag, to support its Constitution.

Chris Hayes (20:22)

Ms. Now presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week, Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week, she sits down with comedian and actress Leslie Jones. I always thought America was the place. You come with your dreams and if you work hard and you do what you're supposed to, you make it the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Nicole Wallace (20:54)

This morning, our friends at Morning Joe spoke to Kevin Hassett. Now he's the director of Donald Trump's National Economic Council. About Trump's lies about the economy. Last night, Hassett's answer to this question about prices was to say, oh, you didn't show our slides. Watch.

Chris Hayes (21:12)

Why the need to constantly sort of.

Nicole Wallace (21:13)

Exaggerate gas prices are $3 and not $2.50.

Chris Whipple (21:16)

You know, the idea of suggesting that.

Chris Hayes (21:18)

I think a lot of the impact of inflation.

Nicole Wallace (21:21)

Yes, some progress made, but not as much as he says, why not just tell the present American people and say, hey, look, this is. These are the facts.

David Jolly (21:28)

I can understand how you.

Nicole Wallace (21:29)

You feel.

Chris Hayes (21:30)

Why the need to exaggerate?

Chris Whipple (21:32)

You know, I'd have to go back and look at the specific language, but, you know, and I hate coming back with questions for you guys. But the President, in order to make sure that everybody understood the facts and the facts were documented, spent a lot of time with us with our team, preparing slides that showed the data for what he was talking about in the speech. And in some networks while he was speaking, they showed the slides, and in some networks, they didn't. And I just thought that was kind of unusual. I was expecting when I was flipping around to just see the slides everywhere. Gosh, we spent so much time. More time on them. But, you know, I think that the President had documentation for the facts that he was saying. They were in the slides.

Nicole Wallace (22:13)

We're back with Mitch, Alex, and David. So, David, I worked at the White House for six years. The slides would have explained my incoherent boss, not the flex that he thinks it is. And in six years, nobody ever ran the fact sheet for any speech that any politician I ever worked for ever gave. I mean, what. He lies, but you got to read the fact sheet.

David Jolly (22:34)

I'm not sure what the nation was missing last night was a PowerPoint that wouldn't have made things any better. Look, you can't tell people how to feel. As I mentioned, people feel anxious. I think we're in a generational moment of economic anxiety that requires solutions. And here's the real problem. We can argue over where real growth is, where wages are, where employment is. The fact is, people are screaming for change and for solutions, and Donald Trump doesn't have solutions that can fit. Look, you and I took a similar journey through the Republican Party when we at least understood there was some role for government. That was the less government era after an era of no government and government's the enemy. Here's the problem. For Republicans, I am more convinced than ever two values. The economy should work for everybody, Absolutely everybody. That doesn't mean we condemn success, but we gotta fight to make sure the economy works for everyone. The second is that government can be used to improve people's lives. Access to healthcare, access to public education, investments in public education, education, clean air, clean water, access to housing, affordable rents, and so forth. Those are functions of a government. But this Republican Party and Donald Trump are the party of Doge and they're attacking it. And so where does that lead us now? Look, I'm looking way past Washington on this health care crisis right now. I don't trust Washington is going to work it out. And even if they do, simply extending the subsidies is not going to allow health care for millions of Floridians. I'm now in the place where, as governor, I would propose that the government, the state government, provide direct funding of primary care services in all 67 of our counties. That's how it was when I was growing up. If you needed primary care services, regardless of your ability to pay, you could go into the county health clinic. I think we have to return to that because there is no pathway back. Look, this nation, we can have this whole debate, but I am more convinced than ever whether it is right or wrong, inevitably this nation will end up in a single payer situation because we are in such a generational crisis over health care. I don't see a way back, Mitch.

Nicole Wallace (24:30)

I mean, it's a big idea and our politics are so small right now. I wonder where your head is on this debate.

Chris Hayes (24:37)

Well, I think that David makes a good point. Donald Trump is not going to be the president whether he thinks he will be or not in 2028. And although the next three years are going to be painful for the country, we have to start thinking about what's going to happen after that. And in the meantime, what are we going to do around the country to fix the problems that people need fixed today? Because Washington is broken, they don't trust the President. Notwithstanding the fact that the president controls, evidently the Supreme Court, the Senate and the House of Representatives, he is not coming to anybody's rescue. You can see that from last night. They're going to continue to obfuscate. They're not going to tell the truth. If you put up the charts, the charts would actually tell the truth. The president did not tell the truth. But the point that David makes is the important point. The American people, working class people here, are living paycheck to paycheck. They are underneath it. They're feeling it. It's hard. It's coming at them from many, many different directions. Health care is just one of them, but a very important one. And by the way, they're not against people making money. They just don't think it's fair to give a tax cut to the top 1% while we're cutting Medicaid, rural hospitals and making their healthcare subsidies go up. And in this country, there is broad consensus across all political aisles that People have a right to health care. If you have a kid that's sick and they're suffering right now and you're excluding them because of pre existing condition, a parent will cut their arm or leg off to take care of that child. And that's the mindset that the American people are in right now and their desperate need for relief. And Congress is not providing it right now, nor is the President, and it's a damn shame. And I think David's beginning to understand, as are all governors from around this country, that Washington's not coming to help. They're basically telling you you're on your own. Which is basically what the President said last night. He said, I don't see you, I can't hear you, I don't feel you, and I'm not coming to help you, babe. I got to build this ballroom. I got to name the Kennedy center after me. Y' all gotta cut my picture into the mountain and me and my rich friends are good to go. That's kind of what he said last night. So, you know. Yeah, I mean, take his word.

Nicole Wallace (26:34)

I mean, Alex, there is something so jarring, right? I mean, the country, the voters are screaming as loud as they can through the discontent. They're registering the polls through the numbers of Americans who identify as part of the no Kings movement. 43% the last time the question was asked, as opposed to only 30% who identify as part of MAGA Movement. Movement. The energy has shifted. But the tragedy, I guess, is that Trump is so committed privately and publicly to unserious vanity projects, to the plaques that he put up in the White House, to destroying the ballroom, to going to court, to use increasingly brutal tactics to deport anyone in this country illegally, or even some here legally. I mean, the idea that for three years he will continue down this path while the country is screaming at the top of their lungs about, as you said, their fears and their anxieties about the cost and quality of health care, the cost of every trip to the grocery store, every trip to Walmart, every trip to Target, every shopping cart, you click one on Amazon, prices are soaring. And people know that. What do you see sort of shaking out?

Alex Wagner (27:52)

Well, I mean, I think, listen, the reason Trump is did this ridiculous, I don't know what it was vanity exercise last night, his circumscribed 20 minute scream a thon is because he knows he's in trouble. And he's not just in trouble because he has no solution for problems that he helped exacerbate, if not entirely created. He's in trouble because he's losing power. He's a lame duck. And you get indications of that periodically but with increasing frequency, whether it's the number of discharge petitions that Speaker Johnson has had to weather, four, I think, which is the largest number since, I think, 1937 or 1938. That's as much a rebuke of Johnson's leadership as it is Trump. And Trump's, you know, not he's not he's asleep at the wheel to a large degree in terms of Congress. You see it in even the interviews that his chief of staff is having where and we're going to talk about this in some detail later, but there is it's not mutiny. It's just a sense that, you know, as I think Mitch just said, the old man doesn't have it. And that's combined with not only has he lost his touch when he was good at anything, he's not I mean, the skill set, limited though it was, has diminished greatly. And now all that you see are sort of the worst iterations of his miserable personality, which is a bombastic narcissist. I mean, the reason he has signs up all over the White House is both to be a guidepost for him as he gets increasingly addled and just because ego is the only thing that feeds him anymore, that leaves nothing left for the American people.

Nicole Wallace (29:23)

It's just an amazing sort of visible, tangible body of work. The destruction and demolition of the East Wing, the installation of plaques, smearing past presidents, it's all so jarring and tacky, it's hard to get your head around. Mitch Lander, David Jolly, thank you for starting us off. Alex sticks around. When we come back, the woman responsible for basically everything that happens in Donald Trump's White House, including the speech last night, still very much has the full support of her boss, Donald J. Trump, even after that explosive series of 11 on the record interviews she gave to a member of the media detailing the chaos inside the Trump presidency. The journalist Chris Whipple will join us at the table next.

Chris Hayes (30:17)

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on podcast why is this Happening? What's behind Saudi Arabia's recent rise in executions?

Chris Whipple (30:24)

They are still executing minors for the same thing that these comedians who are going to comedy festival are, you know, trying to reason their visit that it is for, you know, promoting the freedom of expression, but you are really promoting your bank account.

Chris Hayes (30:39)

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now. And follow.

Nicole Wallace (30:46)

I come from Earthquake country, Northern California. And the series of 11 on the record interviews that Susie Wiles did with Vanity Fair reporter Chris Whipple is a political earthquake for which the aftershocks are still being felt. And amid the growing fallout from that incredible political earthquake, that incredible series of interviews for Vanity Fair of Donald Trump's chief of staff, Susie Wilde, you know, the one where she said the President of the United States has an alcoholic's personality. That's a quote. Where most of their administrations, even the first Trump presidency, would be thinking about or talking about or leaking to the press that they're going to fire her. Donald Trump and his administration has publicly rallied around her, with Trump openly admitting that she's kind of right in a weird way and that she's very much still in charge. According to the Associated Press, Donald Trump told reporters last night after that televised speech that Susie Wiles told him he needed to address the nation. Susie Wiles has claimed that her quotes in the piece were taken out of context. The White House has not disputed any of the individual facts or quotes, though in the piece, Susie Wiles calls Vice President J.D. vance a conspiracy theorist. She refers to Donald Trump and convicted pedophile and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein as, quote, young, single playboys together. The author of that piece, Chris Whipple, says that all those quotes are on tape. I want to bring in the Vanity Fair reporter who conducted those extraordinary interviews, Chris Whipple. Alex Wagner is still here. I just want to say, as sort of a feat of journalism, you're the variable, because great journalists have gone in to interview Donald Trump. There are some great journalists in that press corps, and nothing this illuminating has come out in years. And so what did you do to get Susie Wiles to say all the things she said?

Chris Whipple (32:46)

Yeah, you know, Nicole, you called it an earthquake. For me, it was kind of like every once in a while in your career as a reporter, lightning strikes, and this was one of those times. I began talking to her in January, almost a year ago. She was 10 days away from becoming the first female White House chief of staff. I thought she was the most fascinating person in American politics, not only because she had led this unbelievable come from behind, against all odds campaign for Donald Trump, but the first female chief of staff. She has this extraordinary magic with Trump. He trusts her in a way that he trusts no one else. Excuse me. And we began talking in January. At the time, I was writing a book about presidential campaign managers, and we began talking. It quickly became clear to me that she wanted to talk about Donald Trump 2.0. She wanted to talk about a Trump who she said would be completely different. She said to me, I just got off the phone with Hakeem Jeffries. I told him, you're going to see a whole new trumpet over the months. I came back to her and I said, you know what? Vanity Fair wants to publish a piece about Trump 2.0. She was all in from the get go. And from day one until the 11th interview, which was quite recent, everything was on the record. Not everything, but almost everything, except when we agreed that it was off. But she rarely went off the record and she was amazingly candid and unguarded and I can't read her mind, but I honestly think that she thought she was going to get a fair hearing, which is what I think I delivered.

Nicole Wallace (34:45)

What did she. What was the spirit of the conversation when she describes Donald Trump's personality as a, quote, alcoholic's personality?

Chris Whipple (34:57)

What's amazing about the whole thing, Nicole, is that she was, it was just matter of fact. And she was matter of fact when she described the fact that there was still a revenge and retribution campaign going full tilt. She was matter of fact when she talked about how Letitia James was part of that retribution tour, which is practically a get out of jail free card for her attorneys, that was what was so remarkable. And I think, I think part of it is that it's not that there's a bubble mentality in the Trump White House or a bunker mentality. It's really kind of a bubble. And I think at a certain point when you're surrounded by like minded acolytes that you forget that what you're saying is sometimes crazy.

Nicole Wallace (35:52)

Did she understand that by acknowledging the retribution and revenge and acknowledging that the Justice Department was being used in that way, that she could be subpoenaed as a witness in a vindictive prosecution?

Chris Whipple (36:06)

I have no idea, because. But she certainly is.

Nicole Wallace (36:09)

She's smart.

Chris Whipple (36:10)

She certainly wasn't reluctant to talk about it. And the really fascinating thing was this sort of arc, this sort of journey that we went through over the 11 months or so. And on day 56, she told me that Donald Trump and I have a loose agreement, as she put it, that the Revenge and Retribution tour will end on the 90th day after 90 days. Months later, I said, remember when you told me that the revenge and retribution tour would be over? She said, oh, well, it's not a retribution tour, really. And we talked about it, but I followed up and said, well, so what about all this talk about mortgage fraud and Letitia James? And she Said, oh, well, that one, that's retribution. Words to that effect. Stunningly candid, stunningly dangerous. Something that no senior White House official that I can think of in history would say out loud. And yet there we were.

Nicole Wallace (37:15)

What does she think of JD Vance to acknowledge that he is simply made a political conversion? She doesn't say, oh, when he, I mean, J.D. vance has said the most harsh things about Donald Trump out of anyone in the nine, ten years I've been covering him. America's Hitler. What does she think about him personally if she describes him as someone who may or may not still see Trump?

Chris Whipple (37:40)

She likes him. She's a fan of JD Vance. She likes Marco Rubio a lot. They go way back. And so of course, I had to ask, as I did, tell me about this 180 degree conversion that both JD Vance and Marco Rubio went through, from Never Trumpers to Trump acolytes. And she said, well, you know, Marco has really strong principles and it really, so it really took him a while to get there. By contrast, J.D. vance, she said, well, he was running for the Senate, so it was sort of political.

Nicole Wallace (38:14)

That's incredible. I have a million more questions for you. I want to bring Alex in on it. We'll all be right back. Chris, you said you asked Izzy Wiles about Donald Trump, referring to female journalists as Piggy. What did she say?

Chris Whipple (38:30)

Really remarkable. In the first place, she insists that the President's health is just fine. She said, my health is good. His health is great. When I said, when I asked her, what about the fact that he's been falling asleep in Cabinet meetings? She said that he's closing his eyes. He's not falling asleep, he's awake. He just likes to close his eyes. I then asked her, what about the verbal abuse of women that we've been seeing increasingly and in particular, I said, and what about the time that he said to that woman from Bloomberg, quiet, Piggy? She said, he's a counterpuncher. And increasingly these days, women are doing the punching.

Nicole Wallace (39:16)

Oh, my God, Alex. No words. Your question.

Alex Wagner (39:20)

I was struck by the almost maternal role she plays just insofar as she can leave meetings that Trump is holding and say to him, I have something more important I need to tend to. And given I'm playing armchair psychologist here, Chris, but given Trump's rocky relationship with his own mother, I mean, was it almost a maternal relationship? What is the sort of emotional tenor of that relationship?

Chris Whipple (39:43)

I don't know about maternal, but there is a magic that she has when it comes to dealing with Donald Trump, without a doubt he trusts her in a way that he doesn't trust any of her predecessors or anyone else in the White House for that matter. And I do think that her experience with her father, Pat Summerall, the famous sportscaster who was an alcoholic and an absentee father, was a kind of PhD for her in dealing with difficult men. She'd be the first to tell you that. And so I do think that she maybe it's like the Serenity Prayer where you don't try to change the things you can't change. But whatever it is, I think she has to Nicole's question, I think she has checked out when it comes to presidential behavior that would be utterly unacceptable on any other planet. She's just said, well, I'm just not going to go there.

Nicole Wallace (40:44)

Does she ever, I mean, John Kelly talked about worrying about the Constitution and the laws and going to the White House counsel. Does she seem to have any cognizance of the importance of the Constitution or not really.

Chris Whipple (40:55)

That's the fascinating thing, is she seems to want to have it both ways. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. On the one hand, you and I know that the most important thing a chief of staff can do is tell the president hard truths. That's job number one.

Nicole Wallace (41:11)

It's the whole job. Yeah.

Chris Whipple (41:12)

Yeah. And she will pay lip service to that. And I have examples in the Vanity Fair piece throughout of Susie Wiles trying to argue, for example, let's not pardon all of the January 6 rioters. Let's not plunge ahead with tariffs until everybody's on board arguments. She lost. So she pays lip service to that. And yet she did concede to me that she said, look, I have fights all the time, but they're about the little things. Well, if you're White House chief of staff, you have to be able to talk to the president about the big things and win the constitutional and prevail.

Nicole Wallace (41:56)

It's an extraordinary contribution to our understanding not just of this White House, but of this president. Congratulations on reporting. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here to talk about it. Alex Wagner, thank you, my friend, for spending the hour with me. After the break, some developments in the ongoing manhunt for the shooter at Brown University. We'll bring you that news next. We have an update to tell you about on the tragic shooting at Brown University last weekend. According to sources, investigators have identified a person of interest. We're also learning that investigators are looking into whether there is any connection between the mass shooting at Brown University and the murder of an MIT professor who was shot and killed at his home in Brookline, Massachusetts, on Monday. Just two days ago, the FBI said there was no connection, but investigators are now revisiting the possibility that the two acts of violence may be connected. A press conference from officials is expected later today, and we'll keep you updated on any developments in this story at any point after the break. For us, the relationship Donald Trump has tried to downplay now for years. New details being reported on the closeness between Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. We'll have that for you when Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break.

Chris Hayes (43:14)

Msnow presents Season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading.

Chris Whipple (43:21)

Democrats about how they plan to win.

Chris Hayes (43:23)

Again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive Caucus Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delegates, Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki, Season 2 All episodes available now.