← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Limits to impunity”
00:40:50
Nicolle Wallace discusses the cracks to Trump’s coalition from Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s public break with MAGA to podcaster Joe Rogan denouncing the President’s reaction to Rob Reiner’s death.
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- [00:01]
Luke Broadwater
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- [00:30]
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- [01:03]
Comedian/Commentator
The people My people are so smart. And you know what else they say about my people? The polls. They say I have the most loyal people.
- [01:09]
Luke Broadwater
Did you ever see that?
- [01:10]
Comedian/Commentator
Where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and.
- [01:14]
Luke Broadwater
I wouldn't lose any voters. Okay.
- [01:17]
Nicole
That was done. Hi again, Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. Unfortunately, for years, that was basically true. Donald Trump really could do and say whatever he wanted. He could cross any boundary of normal considered behavior in our politics or public life and not lose any support from his political backers. But we're starting to see that erode. We're starting to see the limits of his impunity with his most ardent voters and supporters. Some of them have started to very publicly draw lines in the sand. Here is what podcaster Joe Rogan, who helped catapult Donald Trump back to the White House, and comedian Shane Gillis had to say about Donald Trump's response to the horrific death of Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle.
- [02:05]
Comedian/Commentator
Listen, there's no justification for what he did that makes any sense in a compassionate society. It's no different than people that were celebrating when Charlie Kirk got shot. That's what it. Yeah, that's the thing that bothers me. It's the same kind of thing, bro.
- [02:15]
Eddie Klott
It'd be like if Obama tweeted.
- [02:18]
Comedian/Commentator
Yeah, yeah, rest in piss. Imagine. Oh my God, imagine. Imagine if Obama tweeted, you know, something about someone, you know, after they died in this way, that this person was a deranged. That person had hated Obama and he wrote Obama, like all caps. It just shows you how crazy it is the way Trump thinks and talks.
- [02:39]
Nicole
Well, yeah. And that Obama would never do that because he's normal person. The important part of this, as infuriating as it is to watch, is that Donald Trump is ending the first year of his four year term with very public cracks in the very coalition that thrust him back to the presidency. There is most notably former Trump acolyte Marjorie Taylor Greene, now leaving Congress as a sharp and public vocal critic of Donald Trump's. Case in point. In a new profile in the New York Times Magazine that we told you about last hour, here's how reporter Robert Draper reports on her split from Trump. Quote, she continued to be faithful to Trump's campaign promises. If anything, she said her sin was to have regarded them as more than slogans. That's what I'm guilty of, she told me. That's what made me, in the President's words, a traitor, which was truly believing in making America great again, which I perceive to be America first. These might not be splits that Trump can try to message his way out of either because here's how Americans feel right now about his refusal or failure to deliver on those campaign promises that Marjorie Taylor Greene talks about. On the economy, once Donald Trump's strongest issue and certainly the thing that he torqued and perverted to again return to the White House. A new poll from NPR PBS News and Marist shows that just 36% of all Americans approve of Donald Trump's handling of the economy. That is his worst mark in the six years that Maris has been asking this question. Adding to Donald Trump's unpopularity with the public, a year end Gallup poll has his overall approval rating also at just 36%. This is going to hurt. That is lower than J.D. vance's public approval rating in the very same survey. Among the very same respondents, less popular than JD Vance is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times White House correspondent Luke Broadwater is here. Also joining us, Princeton University professor and political analyst Eddie Klott is here. And Democratic strategist and Columbia University professor political analyst Basil Smichel is here. Luke Broadwater, it's so nice to see you, my friend. Tell me how this lands that Donald Trump is now more unpopular than J.D. vance.
- [04:59]
Luke Broadwater
Well, Trump won't like to hear that. Obviously, you know the, the Trump administrator, Trump himself has been in denial about his own poll ratings, right? He will cite false poll ratings of his approval. You know, where he's in 70% or something. But he, he has had trouble getting above 40% and he's reaching new lows in many cases. And you pointed out the economy, which is perhaps the most important measure to judge him on because that, that is the measure that is probably most likely to hurt the Republicans politically. Right. And so there's this disconnect between how Trump views his popularity. He's, he's governing like he has this wide mandate from the public. But every but poll after poll shows, you know, a majority of Americans do not approve of him and that he doesn't get above 40%. So, you know, his actual agenda is not meeting with widespread approval. It's just the opposite.
- [05:59]
Nicole
You know, Luke, what's interesting to me, and if you take this sort of next to the Susie Wiles 11 sit down interviews with Chris Whipple and she describes him as having an alcoholic's personality and just, you know, really along for the ride, doesn't view protecting the Constitution as necessarily in her remit. You know, she's just going to let Trump be Trump. It seems that there is an absence of people willing to ask the question, did he get away with what he got away with the first time because he was so crass and cruel, but the economy felt good to his supporters, or did they like all that stuff? And it seems that what they've concluded, and Susie Wiles is the chief of staff, which is why I'm singling her out, is that they liked all that stuff. Is there anyone in the orbit, Steve Bannon or anyone who was around Trump the first time asking whether the opposite is true, that if people feel good about the economy, he can get away with what is really far more audacious behavior in a second term? I mean, revelations from his own DOJ that he's grabbed the steering wheel of that show, that he was lying on his own social media platform about not flying on Epstein's plane. Trump's DOJ released emails that said he was on there, quote, many more times than he previously disclosed or that we were aware of two, that he's taking jets and crypto riches and all sorts of other stuff and destroying the white. I mean, do they think that he can do all that stuff because there's a permission structure around the economic promises, or do they just think people are all in with all of his excesses?
- [07:37]
Luke Broadwater
Yeah, I think it's a mix depending on which advisor you talk to, about whether they believe the crassness is something that people hold their nose and put up with or actually a benefit. And I think that's true. If you talk to Trump voters, there's a lot of Trump voters who will say, yeah, I Don't like the mean tweets, and I don't like the way he talks about women, and I don't, I don't like some of the things he says. But as long as he's, you know, executing on the economy and the Republican agenda is intact, I'll live with it. And then there are people, I think, actually like that stuff. They like, you know, the machismo and the, and the, the crass statements and the bold statements. And, and they actually, that's, that draws them to Trump. There is a segment of the base that's like that. But, you know, what we're seeing here is actually chinks in the armor in both cases. Right. You have his comments about Rob Reiner, which, you know, are somewhat indefensible. I don't know anybody other than Laura Loomer who's really come out and defended these things. You have Joe Rogan and Shane Gillispie saying that that's beyond the pale for, for even, you know, comedian podcasters. And then you have his handling of the economy, which is, is really dipping lower and lower. And that was the thing the Trump base could always try to fall back to. They could say the Democrats ruined the economy, Trump's the great businessman, he's going to fix it. And that's not really been the case. And so as the longer he's in office and the more the American people are feeling the stretch of their own pocketbooks, they can't really blame the Democrats for that. The longer it goes on and the blame is going to continue to fall onto Trump and the Republicans.
- [09:18]
Nicole
Let me play a little bit more of that. And Rogan is important. I always feel like I have to disclose why this is news. Donald Trump, I don't think, wins without support and complicity from the male podcast world, from making those machismo arguments for marrying a distinct for cancel culture with Trumpism. Let me show you more of what Rogan said about Trump's plaques that he put up in the White House.
- [09:54]
Comedian/Commentator
This is so crazy. That this is underneath a photo in the White House is so crazy. This is so crazy. You shouldn't be allowed to do this. Right. It should be like historians say, this guy was president from Ba ba ba. What's the end of that? Does it say, Donald Trump saved America? Despite all, President Trump would get reelected in a landslide and save America in all caps. That's a plaque in the White House. He's not beating the dictator charges.
- [10:28]
Nicole
Again, for people not familiar, Shane Gillis is a comedian. He is part of the Rogan sort of orbit of comedians. He made, I think, one of the first public jokes about Epstein. He hosted the ESPYs and said, I had an Epstein joke in here. I guess someone deleted it. So he's not. We'll call him sort of manosphere, slash magicurious, if you will. I think that's fair. But to call it crazy to say you shouldn't be allowed to do this. I guess the question I have for you, Luke, is not, do they care? But do they understand that Trump is more unpopular than Biden was on the economy, that without these pieces of the coalition, there is no mandate, there is no movement, and there is no, you've lost. Marjorie Taylor Greene, who said she's leaving because the Democrats are going to regain power and she doesn't want to have to defend Donald Trump when he's impeached.
- [11:24]
Luke Broadwater
Yeah, I mean, part of the Trump base is represented by, actually, a lot of the Trump base is represented by guys like Rogan and Gillis. Right. They are. They maybe don't pay a ton of attention to politics. They kind of like the Trump swagger. They talk about sports and fighting and smoking weed and it's. And Trump represents some sort of, like, swaggering figure to them. But if his behavior becomes more and more unhinged and it's not really funny anymore, you know, putting up crazy plaques under the, under past presidents, and I'll go back to the fact and the economy is not performing the way people want, then you'll see that base of support start to erode. And I guess the other point is Trump is, unless he tries to run again, a lame duck. And with past presidents always the deeper they go into a lame duck administration, the people start to look for the exits, they start to look for what's next. And they'll start to grow tired of Trump's, Trump's whole bit.
- [12:26]
Nicole
I mean, Eddie, someday someone have to explain to me how machismo exists alongside a guy who appears to tape his hair on. But we'll save that for another segment. What is it in your mind that is significant about people publicly breaking matrix? I mean, we spent a lot of the last year talking about how afraid Jeff Bezos is. Richest person in the world after Elon Musk, who Suzy Wiles says did drugs and slept in a sleeping bag during the day in the White House. I mean, the fear grip seems to have loosened. And I'm not saying they don't still incite risk of violence and swatting and doxing and all sorts of other heinous things they do to their public critics. They do. But there does seem to be a notable shift in what people are willing to say out loud about Donald Trump.
- [13:18]
Comedian/Commentator
Well, that's certainly true. And it's wonderful to see you, Nicole. I hope you had a wonderful Christmas.
- [13:22]
Nicole
Me too.
- [13:24]
Comedian/Commentator
We've been talking about for a long time, since he's elected, since he was elected and even in the first term, the MAGA coalition. And it consists of course, the corporatist wing and its populist wing. And remember we were talking about the tension between Elon Musk and Steve Bannon, representative figures of these two components. And you know, what you asked Luke in the first part of the segment is really important. Well, what is it? Is it the kind of anti woke stuff, the cultural war stuff, or is the economy good? He can be brash and insensitive and crude and racist as long as the economy is cooking, but once this stuff shifts, what happens? Right? And so what we see is that people are willing to in so many ways participate in the ugliness of what we might call a white nationalist agenda as long as their pockets are okay. But the moment they begin to feel the pinch of the economy, the impact on tariffs, and we see that he's actually doubling down on the corporatist wing, that they are making money, that he is making money, that his family is making money over hand and fists while they themselves are struggling. And so then you begin to see the cracks and the cracks in the base then free up those who disagree with the policy. So I think it's part of this tension that we've been exploring, Nicole, since he was reelected. And that is between the populist wing and the corporatist wing, it seems to me.
- [14:48]
Nicole
Yeah, I do remember in the earliest days when it was clear that Trump had sort of picked Musk over Bannon, that there was some sort of tug of war. Elon Musk won. Elon Musk went to Washington. Elon Musk left with Stephen Miller's wife for a while on a mission to continue to do doge and stayed in the good graces. Elon Musk is also the reason that the Epstein story catapulted to the mainstream media. He put out a tweet that said Donald Trump is in the Epstein files. And I think that was the first time in the second term that I ever asked the question or covered that story. So but even when Elon Musk left, Donald Trump's instincts didn't reorient themselves around the Bannon power center. And I wonder if you have any theories on why not?
- [15:35]
Eddie Klott
Well, they didn't reorient in that way because, you know, in a very basic way, I just think he loves to slap his name on things. Right. He's not just about being President of the United States. He was about rebranding America. That's what's in his head. And what to me. And going back to Eddie's point, the problem, however, is that I think Bannon is very focused on the sort of MAGA coalition, but Donald Trump, what's happening now is that, and in a very sort of very clear term, he promised people that he would elevate them at the expense of these other folks that you don't like elites. Well, he promised that he would elevate a certain group of Americans. And in doing so, he had to talk badly about all these other people. He had to give you someone to hate. So whether it's immigrants, it's Haitians, whoever, Puerto Ricans, whoever it is, I need you to hate them, because doing that will elevate. I can elevate you. He didn't elevate anyone except his close friends. And I think that's what's. So that's what I think why the Rogan podcast is so important, because in that moment, what Joe Rogan did was he didn't talk about Donald Trump in a modern Trump era context. He compared Donald Trump to what he thinks is better leadership, which is Obama. He very specifically said that. Right? He didn't say, well, Trump's being Trump. He's like, no, what if Obama had done this? Which signals to me that there are folks now saying to themselves, this really isn't it. There's got to be something more or something better. And what if someone who's more skilled at this had done exactly the same thing? We'd be thinking about it differently. And that, to me, is really important. I don't know if it's consistent. I don't know if it'll last that long. But in this moment, it's people realizing that at what cost did we essentially crap on this entire population of America just to get a little bump in whatever status that hasn't come yet?
- [17:48]
Nicole
And you're making a different point. I said elites. Your point is he ran against people in the country illegally. He's targeting a far broader swath of. Including American citizens.
- [17:58]
Eddie Klott
Including American citizens.
- [18:00]
Nicole
And people here without status are not criminals. They've committed a civil offense. He's criminalized a huge, huge, huge number of people. I always wonder if Rogan has realized that A lot of those people are his listeners.
- [18:12]
Eddie Klott
A lot of those people are his listeners. And they've come to him wanting to feel empowered by what he says and the agency that I think they feel he gave them by saying, just be part of this coalition, get involved with Donald Trump because he's going to elevate you. He's going to improve your status, whatever that meant to them, improve your status in this country, because you felt for the longest time that everybody else was being talked about and taken care of except for you. Until they're not being taken care of, they're not being talked about. They're not being there's no policy that's being directed to them. However, there are all these people that are really close to Donald Trump that seem to be laughing and smiling and doing much better. So you have all these folks that sort of came to the party saying, well, I still don't feel touched, I still don't feel engaged. I still don't feel being taken care of.
- [19:07]
Nicole
To your point. And we'll deal with this on the other side of a break, 70% of Latinos disapprove of the way Trump is handling his job as president, 65% disapprove of the Trump administration's approach to immigration, and a lot of them voted for him. 61% say Donald Trump's economic policies have made their economic conditions worse. We'll deal with that on the other side of a break. Also ahead, as Basil just referenced, Donald Trump's insistence on putting his name on everything isn't going over very well either, especially with the musicians who were booked to play the newly renamed Kennedy Center. Why more of them are backing out of engagements there and speaking out about it next. Also ahead, Trump's failure to convince the American people that he's doing a good job is made even worse for him by what he is doing, exacting revenge on the people who have sought to hold him accountable. And even that campaign is running into all sorts of legal roadblocks. We'll get to that later in the hour with Mark Elias. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [20:06]
Eddie Klott
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- [20:22]
Nicole
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- [20:52]
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- [21:27]
Nicole
Donald Trump's desire to put his name on everything doesn't even sound like a real thing, like a real topic of conversation, because it sounds like something a 2 year old would do. But it is, so we'll cover it. It turns out it's very unpopular with the American people and with the artists that he asked to perform after he plastered his name onto the Kennedy center for the Performing Arts. Musician Chuck Wregg canceled the center's annual Christmas Eve jazz show after the controversial renaming of the Kennedy Center. Wright told the Associated Press this quote, when I saw the name change on the Kennedy center website and then hours later on the building, I chose to cancel our concert. He added Wednesday that the event has been a very popular holiday tradition and that he often featured at least one student musician, one of the many reasons that it was very sad to have had to cancel. Now that adds to a list of artists and performers who have canceled performances there, including folk singer Christy Lee and Lin Manuel Miranda, who canceled a production of Hamilton earlier this year. We're back with Luke, Eddie and Basil Luke. In Trumpian fashion, retribution is the approach instead of reconciliation. Rick Grinnell has threatened to sue. What is the aim for the next three years for the Kennedy Center?
- [22:49]
Luke Broadwater
Yeah, I mean, look, Donald Trump has sought to remake the Kennedy center in his image. He, you know, he has this special fascination with the performing arts. He believes that, I mean, he secretly tells people that he was born with the musical gene and he thinks, and he thinks that he should be.
- [23:15]
Eddie Klott
In.
- [23:16]
Luke Broadwater
Charge of this venue. And, you know, a lot of presidents have focused on important matters around the world and, you know, trying to fix the economy or are, you know, international peace relations, things like that. But Donald Trump has spent a lot of time on elevating his own name, on his own personal interests, like this ballroom that we're seeing or the Kennedy center, and he's giving out Kennedy center honors. He put himself in charge of the board. You know, it seems that there's no part of government that Donald Trump doesn't want to. Doesn't want to rule over, especially when it is something that he has a personal interest in.
- [23:58]
Nicole
Eddie, there's so much to say about this. I mean, one, it's so profoundly stupid that I have a hard time getting past that. But on top of being profoundly stupid, let's go with what Luke is reporting, that Trump thinks he's some sort of secret musical savant. Secret and tromp don't usually go together, but we'll go with that for a second. If you were a secret musical savant, wouldn't you want the arts to flourish? I mean, this is the opposite. This is like, this is deadening the arts by sticking your name on the center, which is what makes me doubt that he actually believes he is a secret musical savant.
- [24:40]
Comedian/Commentator
I completely agree. You know, Trump thinks he knows entertainment. You know, as I've been listening to our conversation, you know, I've always thought of Trump as a kind of carnival barker, a kind of entertainer of sorts. And wrestling always comes to mind. And he's, he's that guy, that wrestler who my, my, my grand great grandfather used to think was a good guy. And then he turned out to be a villain. And all hell breaks loose in our house because the good guy became the villain. But in this case, I think we ought to think back to what Basil said in the, in the other segment that Donald Trump is hell bent on rebranding America. And I want us to link that formulation to his revenge tour. To his revenge tour. That is to say there was an attempt after he was, after he lost the election, he felt that he was trying to be erased, that folk were trying to erase him. Not only were they trying to erase his legacy, they were trying to put him in jail to do away with any. His imprint on the country. Well, now he's going to put his name on the built environment of the country on the Kennedy Center. Right. The East Wing. You can't undo what he did to the East Wing. I think he's going to put up the Trump, Trump arch way or whatever he calls it. Right. So I think this is part of his effort to ensure his ongoing presence on the American landscape. So I would like us to see it as rebranding, but also as part and parcel of his revenge. Nicole?
- [26:01]
Nicole
Well, I want to sort of re platform your last point though, Eddie, because it's rebranding, but it is a good, I think, note for all of us that it's rebranding, that we'd be covering very differently if he was at 66% and not 36%. And part of the reason he's at 36% instead of 66% is because his own policies have tanked the economy, which was actually doing fine, but people felt really crummy about it. He got there and it now is doing as badly as people felt about it. And again, his approval rating, I believe, is lower than Biden's was on the economy. I wonder at what point being an enabler of a president at 36% who's trying to rebrand America becomes a liability for corporations that funded the destruction of the East Wing.
- [26:52]
Comedian/Commentator
You know, that's a wonderful point, but I also think, you know, I failed to mention there's an underlying element to all of the stuff we're talking about, and that is his autocratic sensibilities, what some may describe as his neo fascist sensibilities, that Donald Trump is not really paying attention, or it doesn't. At least some of the folk around him, given their own exercise of power, given their own ongoing effort to erode the basic fundamentals of American democracy, that they really don't give a damn, to be honest, about those poll numbers, Even though they do. Even though they do, given how arrogant he is and narcissistic he is, because they are going to continue to move and do what they're doing. So there is this effort to rebrand, there is this effort at revenge, but it's all in service of this autocratic agenda, this neo fascist agenda, if that makes sense to you.
- [27:45]
Nicole
Yeah, I mean, look, we spent the year before the election doing a series here that was called Autocracy in America. It can happen here. And the only debate editorially was whether it should be can it happen here or it could happen here. And we argued that it should be, it can happen here. Not question mark. It is here. And I wonder what your thoughts are about where we go from here. I mean, in one year, he has lost significant chunks of his own coalition. In one year, the top rated podcaster whose support may or may not have made the difference in his reelection is mocking him, making fun of those plaques Calling them, quote, crazy. His support among Latino Americans, which, again, proved. I mean, we cover the podcast space and we cover Latino voters because they proved decisive. They're the reason he won. And I wonder what you make of how we cover the Trump coalition moving forward. Why does it matter that they're publicly falling apart?
- [28:50]
Eddie Klott
If I just say really quickly, just to Eddie's point, you talk about how deep Donald Trump wanted always to be in the public conversation, I wound up down a rabbit hole on YouTube and found that he had a board game. He had a board game, like a Monopoly game, but it was the Trump board game. And what was so startling at the end of the little commercial that he had for this board game was that it said all proceeds would be donated to charity. And I was like, ha. Yeah, right, right.
- [29:18]
Nicole
Because we know he doesn't do that.
- [29:20]
Eddie Klott
But he was selling board games with his name plastered all over it. That's how much he needed to be in the public sort of mindset and to sort of pivot to your question. I think that's really the crux of all of this, that people are starting to realize that it's really about him. It's not about us, it's not about them, that it's always been about him. And there is now an attempt to find a way to inform the ecosystem that's thinking differently about how we need to move forward. And one of the things that I've been really heartened by is that there's a lot more conversation on social media and just even in public about what this means, whatever this is. What did Trump say? What did he do? What is his policy? What is the impact on you? There's a lot more interest in trying to get to the heart of your actual impact. I don't know if that's a Democratic Party thing, but it is something that I think people who are really feeling pressed about this moment, who have real concerns about not just what's happening, but where we need to go next, policy wise, that they're trying to inform that debate. That's how we are. Look at the Mandani race and all these other things. That's the difference. It's not just about a negative opinion about what's happening now. It's, my God, what do we need to do to move forward and get past this?
- [30:43]
Nicole
I mean, really quick. Luke Trump very publicly fawned all over Mamdani. Is he waiting for an invitation to the inauguration?
- [30:52]
Luke Broadwater
You know, Trump and I heard this before they actually met. Trump was impressed with Mamdani and That just goes to show you that Trump doesn't necessarily have these core values. He, he respects somebody who has some flair, who has some charisma. And he was, he was very impressed with mom Donnie and I've only heard after they met that he was even more impressed. So, you know, I think he's, he throws out ideology all the time, depending on the situation.
- [31:23]
Nicole
It's amazing. Amazing. One of the most amazing stories of the whole year was that, that live event. Luke, wonderful to see you, my friend. Eddie, glad. Wonderful to see you. Thank you both. Basil sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, more defeats for Donald J. Trump as he tries to punish those who sought to hold him accountable after his first term. We'll get to that with our good friend Mark Elias after a quick break.
- [31:48]
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- [32:47]
Nicole
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- [33:23]
Nicole
So other than sticking his name on things, the thing that Donald Trump has seemed to spend the most amount of time doing is seeking out revenge. Recently, a lot of that time has been spent losing at retribution. His efforts to silence and undermine the voices of those holding him accountable have seemed to Backfire with a new ruling from a federal judge blocking Donald Trump's March order that revoked security clearances from whistleblower lawyer Mark Zaid. Just days before Trump's order, Zaid had sued the Trump administration on behalf of FBI employees. And in 2021, he represented the whistleblower and now Congressman Eugene Binman, whose reported concerns about Trump's 2019 call with Ukraine led to Trump's first impeachment. In his 39 page ruling on Tuesday, U.S. district Court Judge Amir Ali noted that Trump publicly called Zaid a, quote, sleazeball, said he should be sued for, quote, treason, and, quote, expressly tied it to Zaid's representation of a government whistleblower, end quote. Judge Ali also writes, quote, the Constitution forbids government officials from using their power to retaliate against people for their speech. And that is so even when the speech is critical of the government. I want to bring in voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy docket Mark Elias. He has been the target of the Trump administration and Donald Trump's retribution wishes a number of times. Basil is still here. You and I spoke on the podcast at length about sort of the architecture of the retribution campaign. And I love that you broadened it out to the retribution, really against the electorate, against voters. This feels like the part that we're all sleeping on. Will you just give us that broader look at how he's using the Department of Justice to go after actual voters?
- [35:17]
Mark Elias
Yeah. So, you know, Donald Trump cares about power. And one way to display that power is to go after his political enemies, you know, to go after people who question him, people who stand up to him, people like Mark Zait who represent whistleblowers. But a more fundamental need that Donald Trump has is not to be thrown out of office, not to lose power by losing control of Congress. And so, you know, we talk a lot about authoritarianism, but there is a branch of a brand of authoritarianism which, you know, we are in, in which. Which is called competitive authoritarianism, in which he still has to stand for election, he still needs to win votes, and right now, he is hemorrhaging that. So what he is left with is to target voters, to make the voters the enemy of the state. Right. It's not enough to make Mark Elias the enemy of the state or to make the Liz Cheney the enemy of the state or Kiss James the enemy of the state, or call, you know, people treasonous.
- [36:14]
Eddie Klott
Yes.
- [36:15]
Mark Elias
They actually start targeting groups of voters. And so we have seen him do this before. But what the Department of Justice is Doing right now is on a scale that we have never seen before. They are, as we speak, suing 21 states and the District of Columbia to access the most private and sensitive data for its voters that those states have. Now, they have sought this data from all 50 states. About 10 of them red states, have decided to turn it over. 21 states, plus the District of Columbia are fighting. I expect there will be more challenges against the remaining states. And my law firm and I are in every one of those cases where we're defending voters in every one of those cases. Because if the Department of Justice can gain access to the individual sensitive data, Social Security numbers, signature specimens, name, race, age, partisan registration, if they're able to gain that information, then you will see this war against voters accelerate.
- [37:15]
Nicole
What is in the system other than you and your law? I mean, will they go? Will they go to trial? I mean, what is in the system, I guess, is what I'm wondering, to protect voters, if anything.
- [37:29]
Mark Elias
So isn't this the big question of our time?
- [37:32]
Nicole
Yeah. Who's coming to save us? Yes. I can't believe I'm still asking.
- [37:36]
Eddie Klott
You and I. Yeah.
- [37:38]
Mark Elias
We talk about this every week.
- [37:39]
Eddie Klott
Right.
- [37:39]
Mark Elias
What is in the system to protect us? And the answer is the system is dependent on a lot of people acting in good faith, and we are not seeing that.
- [37:50]
Eddie Klott
Right.
- [37:50]
Mark Elias
So what would be in the system would be career prosecutors refusing to do this or career DOJ lawyers refusing to do this. But. But a number of them are pursuing it. It would be the White House's shame. This White House has no shame. It would be, you know, elites calling this out and speaking out and saying that this is not acceptable. We're watching too many elites act with cowardice. So what it is left to, which is what a lot of this has turned out to be left to, is two groups. One is the courts, which are continuing to have to protect democracy as best they can and imperfectly at best. And then the second is people being willing to stand up and speak out by protesting, by calling this out in their own ways and trying to bring attention to it. Because oftentimes when attention is brought to this. Think about it this way, Nicole. What secretary of state, what chief election official in any state wants to go tell their voters that they turned over their most sensitive information to a bunch of people in Washington, D.C. right.
- [38:58]
Nicole
Especially people at 36%. It's probably a harder lift now, heavier lift now than it was even 10 months ago. No one's going anywhere. There's a weird but important development to Donald Trump's promised retribution against former President Obama that I want to tell you about. We'll all be right back. We're back with Mark and Basil. I think you both know we've talked about it here. This effort to prosecute President Obama is hiding in plain sight. Caroline Levitt announced it from the White House podium in July. There have been all sorts of aggressive investigative steps taken toward Director Brennan and others. Then today there was this from conservative outlet Just the News. Quote, Attorney General Pam Bondi told Just the News that she has asked prosecutors to investigate the Obama Biden era of lawfare as an ongoing election meddling conspiracy, signaling she agrees with FBI Director Kash Patel, who earlier this year penned a memo predicating an investigation looking into the weaponization of intelligence of law enforcement powers dating to the Russia collusion case as an ongoing conspiracy. Now, let me just stipulate that as nonsensical as that is, it actually was the remit given to John Durham, who was appointed by Bill Barr to do just this. And John Durham spent $7 million and longer than Robert Mueller and found jack diddly squat. So what is this?
- [40:26]
Eddie Klott
Maybe they feel that Obama's getting a little too much ink right now, that people are talking about him too much. But I think to Mark's earlier point, it's about going after anyone and everyone who could be viewed as undermin, undermining Trump's push to authoritarian power. And if people are starting to talk more about Barack Obama and they're starting to see Michelle Obama out there a lot more, if there are people talking about how to actually protect themselves, to Mark's point, going forward in this election cycle, it's like we gotta go after everybody. We've gotta tarnish their name. We got to pull them down. And their tactic is let them spend money, get the lawyers, push them in the courts so they can divide their time and not pay attention to what's going on. But the reality is we're all paying attention attention now because when you treat everybody as a nail and yourself as the hammer, it makes us feel threatened by you. And when we feel threatened, we are going to find ways to make sure that we shore up our defenses. And that can come in a lot of different forms. Yes, it's legally, but it's also organizing, it's mobilizing. So this, to me, and Mark could speak more to this perhaps, but to me, this is we're just gonna go after anyone and everyone to pull them down so they can't fight back. But that's why you're seeing a change in the ecosystem because people have more agency to fight back.
- [41:50]
Nicole
Mark Elias. Every time they talk about this, I cover it because it is so. It is so dangerous to be fabricating a pretense to investigate President Obama because President Trump is sad that he was investigated for actual crimes committed out in public on live tv. I mean, the eye for an eye is obviously how he thinks and operates, but the truth of it is that there's never been an iota of evidence that Trump's most loyal lieutenants in his first term could ever scrounge up. They spent years looking for just this, and now they have less experience, is the most generous thing I think I can say about Kash Patel and Pam Bondi and Todd Blanch, lawyers doing the same thing that more experienced lawyers like Bill Barr and John Durham already did. What could go wrong?
- [42:47]
Mark Elias
A lot could go wrong. So, I mean, let's not forget John Durham investigated for all that money and all that time, and brought two indictments that led to not guilty verdicts. And for those individuals who were targeted as part of that, a lot went wrong. They had to go through a criminal trial only to have the juries quickly dismiss the charges. And as you say, we're now dealing with a much less set of competent or principled lawyers. Look, Donald Trump is doing this. Pam Bondi is doing this because they're trying to intimidate people. You know, one of the first things you and I talked about after Donald Trump came to office is he went to the Department of Justice and gave a speech and called me a communist who was trying to destroy America. And he said that because he was trying to intimidate me. And he is in. He is. Has gone after people like my former law firm, like people like Mark Zaid, not just because he's trying to shut us up, but because he's trying to make an example to shut other people up. And so Barack Obama is going to be fine. Like, he's not going to get prosecuted for anything. But what Donald Trump is hoping is that people will read this news, will hear this information, and maybe they'll just be a little more quiet. Maybe they will speak out just a little less loudly. Maybe they won't cover a story quite as aggressively as they would have. And so as we head towards 2026, Nicole, it becomes even more important for people like Basil and Eddie and me and you and the Andrew Weissmans and everybody else who you have on regularly to continue speaking loudly and clearly.
- [44:18]
Nicole
On that note, Marg Elias will do just that. Thank you so much for being here today. Basil, thank you for spending a whole hour with us. One more Brad break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.
- [44:34]
Luke Broadwater
$1.1 billion in federal funding for public media has been eliminated, a decision that could mean fewer local reporters, fewer stories that connect us, and fewer journalists holding power to account as the NPR network enters a new chapter. Your support is critical. Your donation today can make a difference. Donate by visiting donate.NPR.org.