← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Lying or incompetence"
00:42:37
Nicolle Wallace on the scrutiny over Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth leadership mounting on two fronts today, his role in the likely illegal “double tap” boat strike in the Caribbean, and the Pentagon watchdog that found Hegseth put U.S. personnel at risk with his use of the Signal App.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:02]
Senator Rand Paul
In this sense it looks to me like they're trying to pin the blame on somebody else and not them. There's a very distinct statement was said on Sunday. Secretary Hegseth said he had no knowledge of this and it did not happen. It was fake news, it didn't happen. And then the next day from the podium at the White House are saying it did happen. So either he was lying to us on Sunday or he's incompetent and didn't know it had happened. As a country, are we just going to let people lie to us to our face?
- [01:33]
Nicole Wallace
There's a Republican asking that question. Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York, quote, He's lying or it's incompetence. Neither of those are qualities anyone would want from the person in charge of leading the mighty United States military, the most lethal and powerful fighting force in the world. The scrutiny over Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's leadership of the Pentagon is mounting on two fronts today. His role in the likely illegal double tap boat strike in the Caribbean and the story we brought you at the top of the last hour that a Pentagon watchdog or inspector general has found that Pete Hegseth put US Personnel at risk when he used the signal app to communicate with other members of Donald Trump's national security team. When it comes to the boat strikes, Pete Heath Changing Story is leaving more questions than answers. From saying he watched the operation in an appearance on Fox News and celebrating and touting it as a success to saying he was simply too busy to have watched the entire operation, including the second strike that occurred after the first strike, and then scapegoating the officer in charge of the operation, Admiral Frank M. Bradley. Pete Hegseth is making clear that he does not remotely believe that the buck comes anywhere near him at the Department of Defense. Admiral Bradley, for his part, is a decorated Navy seal. He will appear before the Senate Armed Services Committee tomorrow to answer some of the questions Pete Hegseth has left lawmakers like Rand Paul with scratching their heads as for why this accountability that lawmakers, again Democrats and Republicans, are seeking, why it's so important. Here's what Democratic Senator Jack Reid, the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said Network.
- [03:24]
Senator Rand Paul
We have to ensure that the military of the United States fulfills its legal obligations. And one of the fundamental reasons is because if we expect our personnel to be treated under the laws of war not to be abused or to be killed when they're, as they say, oars they combat, then we must insist that our troops follow the same laws.
- [03:51]
Nicole Wallace
While the Trump administration would have us believe that ensuring our military follows the laws of war is some controversial thing, here's what Pete Hegseth actually said about it in the year 2016.
- [04:05]
Michelle Norris
I do.
- [04:06]
Senator Rand Paul
Think there have to be consequences for abject war crimes. If you're doing something that is just completely unlawful and ruthless, then there is a consequence for that. That's why the military said it won't follow unlawful orders from their commander in there's a standard, there's an ethos, there's a belief that we are above what.
- [04:26]
Paul Rieckhoff
So many things that our enemies or others would do.
- [04:30]
Nicole Wallace
There's a standard to not follow unlawful orders. But when six Democratic lawmakers said that on the same exact words to remind the men and women of the military of that same standard, we'll call it the Hegses standard, at least from the year 2016.
- [04:49]
While there are potentially illegal acts being carried out, those six lawmakers are accused of sedition by Donald Trump and the same Pete Hegseth. I want to bring in Democratic Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan. She's a member of the Armed Services Committee and one of those six Democratic lawmakers who made the video urging the men and women of the military not to accept or follow unlawful orders. I believe we found that video among some of the things that your social media platforms recirculated. And I wonder what you think changed.
- [05:27]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
I think, you know, I think one of the hallmarks of our time right now in Washington is that a lot of people just don't have a center of gravity. Right. I think they don't have a standard set opinion on something. They have an opinion if, you know, if the other team did something. And, you know, hearing Pete hag Seth from 2016, I was actually heartened to hear him say that. But fast forward less than a decade, and here he is saying the exact opposite thing and repeating what the president is saying. So I just think that there's no center of gravity for these folks. They don't have, like, ideological, like, certainty about things. They don't call balls and strikes on whether you're a Democrat or Republican. If it's a. If it's against Democrats, they're against it. I mean, they're for it. And if it's their own team doing something, then they have a completely different opinion.
- [06:22]
Nicole Wallace
Did the Washington Post story and the Hegseth and Trump reaction to it.
- [06:30]
Make their furious reaction to the video you and five other lawmakers released simply telling the men and women of the military not to follow any orders there are unlawful or illegal? Did it add up once that Post story broke?
- [06:46]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
Well, certainly, you know, we made this video. We had made other videos before on other topics. No one expected one sentence taken from the Uniform Code of Military justice to set off that kind of, to hit that kind of nerve with the president and the Secretary of Defense. I think we saw a really outsized reaction, and it was sort of like, you know, you're protesting a little too much. The funniest commentary I saw, I think, on tv, was someone said, like, if you walk into a crowded bar and someone yells, hey, ugly, and you turn around like, you might be ugly. You know, it really was sort of a striking response. And then the story coming out a few days later, we didn't have foreknowledge of that story, but clearly they must have known it was in the ether. Clearly, they're sensitive about these strikes. The president is walking away saying, you know, I wasn't involved. I didn't support that second follow on strike, the double tax tap strike. Pete Hegseth has changed his story. So they're clearly sensitive about it. But, you know, again, I think.
- [07:49]
Particularly when you see that, you know, when there's a different president in office, Pete Hegseth is happy to talk about the ethos of the military, which is true. You swear an oath to the Constitution and not to any one president. It just sort of made it a little bit more clear why they reacted so strongly.
- [08:09]
Nicole Wallace
Did you have reason to suspect that they had issued illegal orders before you made the video?
- [08:18]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
We made the video because we were all separately Getting so much outreach, frankly, for the better part of a year, but certainly this fall from folks in uniform, from new veterans, from folks in the intelligence community who were saying, like, look, I'm worried I'm going to be asked to do something illegal, especially, frankly, troops in our streets and our cities. I think there was a lot of concern about that. But then since early September, a lot of concern from people at southcom, people in the chain of command, people seeing purges of general officers who were involved in those operations, people seeing the JAG officers removed and saying, like, I'm just, I'm concerned about this. I don't know. Right. So we made that video because the demand signal was very strong. And again, we didn't have foreknowledge of the Washington Post story. But it also doesn't surprise me that those stories are now surfacing.
- [09:11]
Nicole Wallace
Let me ask you to just take us through. It feels like if you are in the military or you are a military spouse or family, it is the worst thing you can say about a man or woman serving their country to accuse them of a war crime. Can you explain to us why the second strike would constitute a war crime?
- [09:35]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
Well, look, I actually, I think we need to know more information. I'm not willing to say because I haven't seen the video. We don't have transparency and accountability from Pete Hegseth. We don't know exactly what happened, and there's a lot of confusing information. But I do think that, you know, there are things like the law of war, which have been around for a very long time, which guide our military and all other militaries of democracies that are a set of standards. And particularly, you know, again, if the facts bear out this way, that folks were, you know, obviously in the water, they were no longer a threat, then there are real concerns I have about the law of war and whether it violated that. But I think, you know, to be honest, we are what. To me, as someone who's worked alongside the military my entire career, I never want American citizens thinking, you know, and questioning their military. I want them to feel confident that this is the best fighting force in the world and they uphold a set of standards. And to me, leadership comes from the top. I need to know that the leaders of the Department of Defense are upholding a standard and that we can feel good about as Americans. So I think, I think you know, the details. I'm just not going to say what the details are when I don't know them. But we want to make sure we're Upholding a very high standard as of the American military.
- [11:01]
Nicole Wallace
The Washington Post reports about a missile being launched off the coast of Trinidad and setting the vessel on fire from bow to stern.
- [11:10]
Paul Rieckhoff
And.
- [11:10]
Nicole Wallace
And then on the video, the live feed, which Pete Hegse said he was watching and now says he wasn't watching, that there were two people seen alive and a shock went through the room from the people that were watching. And your experience on the intelligence side of being in country during operations, how many people, more or less, would have access to the recorded video of that operation?
- [11:33]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
Yeah, I mean, certainly there's lots of communications that go on when you're talking about operations. Right. There's a ton of operational ways that we retain information. Video is one. I honestly, I do not know how many people have access to that video. Obviously, they put it out into the media or a part of it. And so I think there's lots of folks, even in the public affairs department who have had access to that video. It exists and it's around. But there are other ways. You know, there are chats that go on, operational chats that we want to have happen when things like this go on. So there's lots of different ways. I think the most important thing, though, is, you know, the secretary of defense, any secretary of defense, is really the, you know, the buck stops with him. And I've seen secretaries of defense under Democratic administrations and Republican administrations. Lots of stuff happens that a secretary of defense doesn't like or doesn't know about always. And, but you got to take accountability. You got to say, here, look, this is what happened. Here's I want to be transparent, and here's what we're going to do to change or to improve or to make it better. That's what we're asking for. Come and have a hearing, sit down in front of the American people and explain the situation. And I think that's what's hard for a lot of people is watching the secretary now turn and blame it on the uniform military, back away from statements he himself has made. It's like, clearly the buck doesn't stop with him. And that's been a theme for this secretary.
- [13:03]
Nicole Wallace
Do you have confidence, though, that all the evidence that does exist about an operation where people have said, I mean, Hegseth himself has said he was watching it. So we know that there is, to your point, at a minimum, there is video, there are recordings, there are records. Do you have confidence that all those will be preserved so that bipartisan senators and members of the House committees that want to investigate this will have access to the truth.
- [13:30]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
I mean, look, I think I know, working alongside the military my entire career, that there are wonderful people who care deeply about the reputation of the military, who care deeply about the values that it represents, who take their oath seriously. And I think that those folks know that there's got to be a responsible way of handling these documents. So I don't have any reason to believe things are being destroyed. But again, leadership climate is set at the top. So the Secretary of Defense has a responsibility to just provide some transparency here. Just own it and let's have the conversation so the American people feel confident in what's happening in their name.
- [14:17]
Nicole Wallace
It's been a terrible 72 hours for Pete Hegseth. The Inspector General at the Pentagon.
- [14:24]
Reportedly has found that he jeopardized operations by putting that information into an insecure channel in the Signal chat. I read some of the messages. Inspector General also found that they were clearly classified at the time. Have you seen the full report? And do you have.
- [14:44]
I mean, concern Seems like the wrong question, but do you have new understanding of his conduct around the signal chat scandal?
- [14:55]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
Yeah, I'm actually going right from this interview to my time in the skiff to read the report and actually have some time with it. So I'll have more to say once I've actually read it. But I mean, again, I think that we just what was already released back when the whole Signalgate thing happened. It's not hard to understand for anyone. I'm talking about anyone associated with military operations, including the spouse community. They know that you do not put the time and location of strikes in any kind of unclassified space, even on signal. Right. And like the spouse community knows, you know, if you get a call from somebody and a loved one and they tell you where they are or where they're going or what time something is going down, you don't put that on Facebook. You don't talk to anyone about that. That shouldn't even be conveyed sometimes. So I think it's like basic common knowledge that you don't put time location of sensitive operations that put our uniform military at risk on the open Internet, period. So I want to read the report, but that in itself is already obvious to anyone who's ever been involved in these kinds of things.
- [16:00]
Nicole Wallace
I know that seems much more important than this, but I want to ask you one last question. We've. I know you've shared some of the threats that you've received. Do you and your staff and your family feel safe?
- [16:11]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
Yeah. I mean, even Just coming to this interview, I've got 24, 7 security, you know, which no one likes to have, that the Capitol Police is providing. We had a bomb threat at my home. We had a suspicious package the next day. My family has been targeted. So they've got law enforcement help and our local law enforcement have been incredible in helping, supporting our family. But I think, I just, I think most Americans believe that we shouldn't be threatening death to someone because we disagree with them. And when it comes from the commander in chief, when it comes from the president of the United States, we shouldn't be surprised when hundreds, if not thousands at this point of threats come in saying what he said, that we should be hung and worse. And I just don't think this represents who we are as a country. I don't think anyone really wants our politics to be handled this way. And I would never wish this on someone, even if I disagreed vociferously with their political position, I would never wish violence on someone else. So I just, look, it's an unfortunate part of this job for me. I signed up for this. My family and my staff did not.
- [17:21]
Nicole Wallace
Senator Lissa Slotkin, thank you for your candor. Thank you for your role in all this and thank you for talking to us about it. It's great to see you.
- [17:29]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
Appreciate it. Thanks, Nicole.
- [17:32]
Nicole Wallace
We have much more ahead in our coverage of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and the withering criticism he's getting from Democrats and Republicans over the boat strikes and now Signal gate. Those critiques are getting louder and more and more public, which makes it unique in the time of Donald Trump. We'll turn to our panel next. Also ahead, we are getting our first look at a batch of disturbing, never before seen images of Jeffrey Epstein's private island in the Cross Caribbean. It comes as Democrats and Epstein survivors continue to urge Donald Trump to do what he promised to do as a candidate, to release all the Epstein files. Debbie and Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [18:14]
I want to bring in our coverage. Staff writer at the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic Daily Newsletter, Tom Nichols is back. He's a professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the US Naval War College where he taught for more than two decades. Paul Rykoff is also back with us. He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast. He's the founder of the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. Let me first play for you what, Senator, let me first ask you if you have any reaction to what Senator Slotkin said about where things stand.
- [18:45]
Tom Nichols
You first, Tom.
- [18:47]
Well, she was hesitant to say whether or not that second strike is war crime. And I think the point is if it happened the way it's being reported.
- [18:57]
Than it is. And there is simply no scenario under which you can just target people that are clinging to wreckage. The other is just one unfortunate time we live in where Donald Trump has normalized the threat of political violence against, not just elected members of Congress, against everybody. I think, you know, almost anybody who's ever written or said anything in public about Donald Trump has gotten some of those threats because he. He leads a cult. I mean, they, you know, these are very insecure and angry people, and it's just kind of crazy to have to think that a U.S. senator, I mean, I worked for a senator, and, you know, that used to just walk the streets. You know, back in the day, you'd run into a senator or congressman just walking down Capitol Hill by themselves, and now they have to worry about death threats. I think that's really a sad commentary about what Donald Trump has done to us, to us as a country.
- [19:53]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, accusing them of sedition certainly brings out the craziest of the crazies and turns them against whoever you've accused of that. Paul Rykoff, your thoughts?
- [20:05]
Paul Rieckhoff
Our enemies are celebrating. I mean, if you just look across the last couple months of all of this, I mean, everything from Signal Gate to the exposure of our National Guard troops to the infighting and the threats of violence that come from our commander in Chief, I mean, Hexa is having a really bad week, but Putin and our enemies are having a good week. If you just look at how average American is less safe this week because of potential compromises of classified information, because senators are feeling fearing for their lives, and because our troops can't trust the head of the Defense Department not to get them killed. I think it's a really important point. We have to put on this all the terminology around classifications of whether it's secret or classified. The key point of what we're learning about Signal Gate is he disclosed information that could have gotten people killed. And that's why he needs to go. He never should have been there to begin with. But our troops can't have any confidence in him for another minute that he won't get them killed, especially as Trump is considering escalating attacks on Venezuela.
- [21:09]
Nicole Wallace
I want to come back to the clarity with which you talked, Tom, about the facts as we understand them. And this part of the reporting actually isn't in dispute. The Washington Post reported that a missile was launched off the coast of Trinidad, that it struck the vessel, that the vessel was on fire from bow to stern, and that everyone watching saw that there were two survivors. This is what the Defense Department's 2023 law of war manual says about shipwrecked people. Quote, clearly illegal orders to commit law of war violations. The requirement to refuse to comply with orders to commit law of war violations applies to orders to perform conduct that is clearly illegal or orders that the subordinate knows in fact are illegal. For example, orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal. The act, again, which isn't in dispute. Hexess and Caroline Levitt are defending the act. They're just saying that they didn't do it. Admiral Bradley did.
- [22:17]
What do you expect from his testimony on Thursday?
- [22:23]
Tom Nichols
Well, that'll be interesting. I want to amend one thing Paul said before we go on.
- [22:26]
Senator Rand Paul
Paul.
- [22:27]
Tom Nichols
They're not just having a good week. Our nation's enemies aren't having a good week. They've been having a good year. They've been getting a good ride for months. I don't know what to expect Thursday. I mean.
- [22:40]
Military members don't, you know, they don't lie to Congress. We're gonna, Congress gonna hear stuff about who gave which order. And again, this is a, this incident, this one incident is so clear. I, I think that the whole campaign against these boats is not legal. It's not authorized by Congress, it's not ascertaining it. It violates all kinds of rules about things like proportionality, identifying and discriminating among civilian targets. I mean, there's a whole bunch of reasons why this campaign is probably illegal. But even people who have honest disagreements can disagree about whether, you know, we ought to be running around the Caribbean doing this. This one is a no brainer. If there are people shipwrecked in the water alive, not only can you not shoot at them, but as a, I ran into a friend who's a retired senior officer the other day. He said, not only you can't shoot at them, you're supposed to send medics. At that point, you are obligated under the laws of armed conflict that once these people have been rendered, as Senator Reid said in an earlier clip, or is the combat out of combat, you are, they're your responsibility at that point. And you can't just say, well, kill them all and, you know, finish them off because it's inconvenient or because it sends a message. You're just not allowed to do that. Not only because it's against law, not only because it's against American law and international law because it's an inhumane and dreadful thing to do. And you don't want American soldiers getting those kinds of soldiers and sailors getting those kinds of orders. The other thing that's going to be interesting to hear about as more of this comes out, not only is the secretary of defense not supposed to give an order like that, not only is everybody.
- [24:31]
The commander of the area not supposed to fulfill an order like that. Everybody down the chain is supposed to resist an order like that, to say, fire at these unarmed people that are floating in the water. You're not like, everybody had an obligation not to do that. And so I don't think this story is going to go away. Hegseth can try and laugh his way out of it and send out funny memes, and Trump can shrug and say, I don't know about anything. But this is really qualitatively different, even from the signal scrub, which I think Hegseth got away with primarily because, well, in part because the Atlantic magazine handled this really responsibly and people didn't get hurt, but also because there was no direct consequence from this kind of screw up. But this is now the latest in a series of things, and this one's really horrible. I mean, I think people are going, this is not going to go away for exile.
- [25:31]
Nicole Wallace
I want to show you the man at the center of this, placed at the center of the story by Caroline Levitt. First from the podium, the White House briefing room, and later on social media by Pete Hegseth, who tweeted his name and described his role in this. This is Admiral Bradley at his confirmation hearing in July. Paul.
- [25:52]
Senator Rand Paul
I'm the son of a World War II veteran Army Air Corps master sergeant who worked on P38s. From Operation Torch in North Africa to the final assault on Berlin. After the war, my father ranched and served as the justice of the peace, an elected judge in our small Texas community, I learned a deep appreciation for our democracy and the judicial system. Watching him dispense judgment in our community. Special operations is the ultimate team sport. Where to win is to live, and to lose often means someone you care for does not. As such, I am grateful to be a member of the most precise and lethal fighting force the world has ever known.
- [26:34]
Nicole Wallace
Again, what is publicly known about Admiral Bradley is all impressive and sterling, and this word that he uses really struck me. In the wake of how the White House has talked about him and the things that Hegseth has tweeted about him, he says, quote, I'm grateful to be a member of the most precise and lethal fighting force the world has ever known, to take pride in and to raise up for non military.
- [27:03]
You know, members. He's testifying before Congress, members of Congress or the public that precision is the matter of, quote, life and death. And the life and death of the people on your team. Feels like an important thing to understand about him.
- [27:16]
Paul Rieckhoff
Yes, he is a precise man, and he is a real American badass. He's not a fake. He's tested, he's respected, and he, I think, will be honest and earnest. And it will be a direct contrast from the abdication of real leadership we've seen from Hegsett from the moment he was sworn in. It's important to note that Bradley is responsible here, too. And if he screwed up, if he made the call, he will probably take responsibility for it. And you may see other folks down the chain of command, because we all understand that a double tap is literally a case study. I mean, this entire discussion around the boats and the wounded is something they would teach in the schoolhouse at Fort Benning. They would use it as an example. They would say if, for example, people were wounded and clinging to a boat, and maybe to give a more. A more popular understanding. Anybody who's watched a war movie knows you don't shoot the wounded. And it's not just about being a badass or being a tough guy. It's also about the strategic value that a wounded person can provide, because if they're bad enough to kill, they're bad enough to capture. And if you capture them, they could provide intelligence assets. And if these folks are so dastardly and invoking such a fear on our country, why didn't we capture them and find out what they know? So I think it's all going to come out in the wash here. It's critical that there is videotape and there may be more videotape. And I hope we see a full exploration of every one of these strikes and accountability all across the board. Because the military is a learning institution and they want to use this to get better. But they also need to know that they can have confidence in the people at the top. And that's really what you're talking with. Hegseth is a total loss of confidence at a time when we need him to be stern and steady. And he's the opposite of that. And I think Bradley may show us a refreshing contrast that I hope will give us the clarity we need.
- [29:01]
Nicole Wallace
Let me just. This may be a dumb question, Paul, but Would Bradley understand that section that we just read from the law of war manual, that quote, for example, orders to fire upon the shipwreck would be clearly illegal?
- [29:12]
Paul Rieckhoff
Yes. I mean, every plebe at West Point understands this. I mean, they literally teach this section. Right. It's like War Fighting 101. You learned, you learn it in basic training, you learn it at the academies. I mean, if you pulled a dozen privates out of basic training, have only been there for a couple weeks, they would know this was wrong. And they also know that what Trump said. Sorry, what Hegseth said by saying, I respect his orders, they know that means he's passing the buck. He didn't say, I am responsible for everything that everybody in the military does and everything they fail to do like a real leader would have done. He passed the buck down to Bradley and now we'll be in the spotlight and I think he's going to own it. He's going to own the responsibility and other folks in the chain of command will do the same. And you will see the difference between a professional military that is non political and is precise and the radical, extremely political culture warrior that he's been for the last 11 months.
- [30:08]
Nicole Wallace
Tom Nichols and Paul Rykoff, thank you both so much for being part of our coverage on this today. To be continued. I'm sure when we come back, among the many horrible and unanswered questions about what really happened with Jeffrey Epstein is this one what happened behind closed doors on his private island in the U.S. virgin Islands. Today we're getting our first look at some never before seen images of what was known as Epstein Island. Those images emerge as the calls for Donald Trump to release the Epstein files reach a boiling point. We'll bring that reporting next.
- [30:43]
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Ashley Flowers
Hi everyone, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of Crime Junkie, the Go to Crime podcast for the biggest cases and the stories you won't hear anywhere else. So whether on your commute, studying or while you work, let us keep you company. With new episodes every Monday. It is truly a crime Junkie's dream. So join me, my best friend Britt and our entire Crime Junkie community right now by catching up on hundreds of episodes and by listening to a new case every Monday on Crime Junkie, available wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [32:08]
Nicole Wallace
Democrats have just in the last couple hours released another batch of disturbing, never before seen images from Jeffrey Epstein's estate in the Caribbean, proving to Donald Trump that the story isn't going away anytime soon and ramping up the pressure on his Justice Department to release files as is now required by bipartisan law. We got the first glimpses earlier today inside what Epstein's victims and survivors described as a, quote, house of horrors at the center of allegations of sexual abuse of teenage girls and the isolation they said they felt there. The Images, taken in 2020 after Jeffrey Epstein's death, were shared with the House Oversight Democrats by law enforcement in the U.S. virgin Islands. The committee's top Democrat, Congressman Robert Garcia, says the images offer this a quote, disturb look into the world of Jeffrey Epstein and his island. We are releasing these photos and videos to ensure public transparency in our investigation and to help piece together the full picture of Epstein's horrific crimes. We won't stop fighting until we deliver justice for the survivors. It is time for President Trump to release all the files. Now here's some of what we know of what happened on Epstein Island. The Washington Post reported this about a lawsuit from law enforcement in the U.S. virgin Islands, quote, to keep his victims from escaping. The lawsuit says Jeffrey Epstein confiscated their passports, eliminated external communications and threatened to hurt them. In one case, a 15 year old girl who had been forced to engage in sex acts with Jeffrey Epstein tried to escape by swimming off Little St. James. According to the lawsuit, Jeffrey Epstein organized a search party and forced her to stay by confiscating her passport, the lawsuit says. I want to bring in Ms. Now senior contributing editor Michelle Norris joining me at the table. Legal analyst Christy Greenberg is here. She's a former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, host of the YouTube show Courtside. I mean, Michelle, that seems to constitute kidnapping and torture. That account of confiscating one's passport and searching for it. I mean, for Someone to try to swim away has just a heinous, heinous clarity of depravity and desperation to get away, right?
- [34:26]
Christy Greenberg
When you think of the ways in which sex trafficking happens, and you think, oh, these are minors and that alone is a crime. But then when you take into account, yes, he's defrauding them, he's taking their visas, making it so that they actually have no choice, they cannot leave the island. Just looking at those images, you see, as you pointed out in the opening, just how isolated it was. There really was no way out. And while on foot, first blush, you look at it and it may seem as though, oh, this is a luxurious paradise when you can't leave and when you're forced into those rooms to do things against your will becomes a nightmare. And these poor girls think about how young they were being in that position, how difficult that must have been for them. Your heart, as you see the images, especially that one, I don't know if that's a dental chair or if that's where they did massages, but these creepy, weird masks of old white men, I don't know if they used those or to maybe disguise people who were engaged in these acts or why that would be on the wall. That would be a question I would want to ask. It's just. It's weird, it's creepy. And, you know, you just think these walls, you know, what is what happened in all of these rooms? And it's just really, it's hard when you see those images to think what horrors went on there.
- [35:42]
Nicole Wallace
MICHEL the survivors are so valiant, and I've had the honor and privilege of interviewing several of them here. And I'm always sort of flattened by their, by their courage to take this darkest chapter and share it with us for the larger aim of justice and making sure it doesn't happen again. But even hearing their stories didn't prepare me to see where they happened. And I would encourage anyone watching to go online. We'll put these up rather slowly. I mean, these aren't just pictures of a dead person's private island in the Caribbean. And this is a crime scene. He is, he was a. He was, you know, a criminal. He wore an ankle bracelet. He was a criminal. And this was the criminal's crime scene. This was where he at least psychologically torture girls by not letting them leave. It's where he entrapped them by taking their passports, and it's where he raped them and trafficked them to other, to other men. And it just, you know, to have talked enough of the victims, to hear them talk about their, their childhood and their innocence dying when they were victimized by him and trafficked by him. This is where their innocence died in these rooms.
- [37:00]
Michelle Norris
Well, let's just take a moment and honor the victims and remember that seeing these images, many of us are seeing these images for the first time. For the people who actually spent time at Little St. James island, they're returning to the scene of horrible acts. And so this is yet another assault on these women. Now, women, but were very young girls. And imagine being so desperate that you would try to swim in open water in the ocean on an island. I mean, where are you going at that point? You know, you're so desperate that you're willing to go into what are probably shark infested waters with riptides and everything else. But seeing these pictures will have another impact on the American public. This is not happening in a court of law, but I think a prosecutor prosecutorial playbook is at play a little bit here because in prosecution, the pictures are very important because they help establish a permanent visual record. They help people understand the crime in a, in a, in a way that is a little less abstract, because you're seeing where things happened and you're seeing, yes, it looks like a luxury compound, but you have this juxtaposition of this luxury compound and these little girls, not women, little girls, some as allegedly as young as 11 years old, who are on an island so far away from their family, so far away from anyone who could protect them and could look out for them. And it is something that also is a way for the people who are asking for the files to be released is a reminder to Donald Trump that they're going to continue to release this material. They also, you know, said today, the oversight committee said today that they were able to obtain financial records from JP Morgan and Deutsche bank, you know, which is another reminder to Donald Trump there may be more coming. You can try to sit on top of the files, but they're going to continue to try to send as much out to the public as possible. And this, every time it happens, it is a reminder that the President of the United States had. And he can admit that, you know, he can try to say that he has no connection to Jeffrey Epstein, but it is a reminder that he had a longstanding relationship with a sexual offender who was accused of heinous acts.
- [39:21]
Nicole Wallace
And 81% of the American people believe that Donald Trump is covering up something. And that's why the files haven't been released. No one's going anywhere. We have much more in the story on the other side of a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [39:35]
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Tyler redick here from 2311 Racing. You think racing's tough? Try getting your friends to agree on dinner plans.
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- [41:04]
Senator Rand Paul
What'S important for Democrats is when we get information, we are going to put it out to the public. And I think that the images speak for themselves. Now we have the new law that Congress passed in a bipartisan way. These are dual efforts and what I've reminded folks is the subpoena gives no will to room to the DOJ to.
- [41:23]
Paul Rieckhoff
Hold back the files.
- [41:25]
Senator Rand Paul
And so it is time for Pam Bondi, who has told the public and the President that the files are on her desk, to release the files to the public.
- [41:35]
Nicole Wallace
So Christy, this is where for the first time this started to feel a little bit like the work of the January 6th select committee where these are images that DOJ is not believed to be in possession of. These are photos and images that House Oversight went to the law enforcement officials in U.S. virgin Islands, the subpoena and they turned them over. And it seems that it is both the substance of the Congressional oversight investigation as well as the exclusivity of its material. I mean, the opposite example has been made by Pam Bondi who went on Fox News and said, I got it all, I'm keeping it secret, even from you viewers of Fox News, our voters and our allies. It's sitting on my desk. I mean, what do you make of this incredibly sort of stark contrast between sort of a public service investigation and immediate transparency and now a months long cover up?
- [42:31]
Christy Greenberg
Well, it's curious because we had that July 2025, two page memo from DOJ saying, well, we've looked at this exhaustive review of the Epstein file. We've looked at all this information and there's nowhere to investigate. All these uncharged third parties, nothing to see here. We're clos this all down. And then we keep getting more information that apparently DOJ didn't have. And so you wonder how could they possibly have said there was no basis to further even investigate, not just prosecute, but just investigate to look into it more when there were these other avenues available to them. It doesn't make sense. And again, this shouldn't be news because it all comes back. Every sex trafficking investigation comes back to the victims. The victims were talking about what happened on this island. So it wouldn't be a stretch to then say we should get this. And we know that there was a search warrant that was executed of that estate by the Southern District of New York prosecutors. So you know, the other thing I would say is you had investigations in Florida that really focused on what was going on in Florida. In New York, Jeff Berman in his book says we really tried to focus on what was happening in New York. So all those images that you see that really just make your skin crawl of thinking what's happening there, that really wasn't the focus of any prosecution. The same with his ranch in New Mexico. Mexico. So once again you come back to how could there not be more to at least look at? It really doesn't make a lot of sense. But the answer is not what Trump said, which is ordering an investigation into Democrats. You know, that came because he wants to investigate his political enemies, not from the basis of looking at a photograph and being disturbed or listening to what a victim said and thinking there's more there. This is just political expediency. This is what he wanted to get him out of releasing the files.
- [44:19]
Nicole Wallace
Michelle, where do you think this goes next?
- [44:22]
Michelle Norris
Well, it is a reminder, and it's somewhat ironic, Nicole, that this is, we're talking about the President of the United States, someone who is who prides himself on controlling the news cycle with, you know, a constant torrent of news that is unreal, surreal, unbelievable, unprecedented. And it's like an open fire hydrant of toxicity or attempts at distraction. And in this case, he's in front of the hydrant, he can't control it. And as Christy said, there's just, you know, there's, we don't know what else is out there, but we do know that the DOJ is not working assiduously to find it, but apparently the oversight Committee is. And so we are probably going to see more of this and probably more attempts by him to squash this and make it go away. And it's not, it's not, it's not.
- [45:08]
Nicole Wallace
It'S not going anywhere. Michelle Christie, thank you both so much for joining us on this today. Another break. We'll be right back.
- [45:18]
Five hours of Donald Trump's son in law Jared Kushner and his golf buddy turned special envoy Steve Witkoff did not seem to convince Vladimir Putin of much of anything. That aforementioned dream team went to Moscow yesterday to discuss what the US has proposed for ending Russia's war in Ukraine. But according to reporting in the New York Times, the meeting resulted in no deal. And this quote, did not delve into the war wording of any provisions, reach any specific compromises or agree to a new summit between Putin and Trump. And now Putin is going on the offense, telling reporters, quote, we are not planning to fight with Europe, but if Europe suddenly starts a war with us, we are ready right now. That doesn't sound good. Stay on top of that one more break. We'll be right back.
- [46:08]
Be sure to tune into this week's episode of the Best People podcast. I'm so lucky to be joined by Emmy award winning actress Claire Danes, Homeland and her new Netflix show the Beast in Me. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download it wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.
- [46:26]
Tyler Redick
Tyler redick here from 2311 Racing. You think racing's tough, try getting your friends to agree on dinner plans.
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Senator Rand Paul
I'm in.
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