“Major developments in the Jeffrey Epstein case”

Summary

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Episode Summary – Deadline: White House

“Major developments in the Jeffrey Epstein case”

Host: Alicia Menendez (filling in for Nicolle Wallace)
Date: August 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode confronts seismic new developments in the Jeffrey Epstein case, focusing on the Justice Department’s release of transcripts and audio from Ghislaine Maxwell’s recent questioning by Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. As the DOJ begins passing Epstein files to Congress, the panel analyzes the interview’s content, the legality and politics behind it, and Capitol Hill’s immediate response. The conversation critically examines the ongoing transparency debate, the motives behind this sudden wave of document releases, and implications for Donald Trump and other public figures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Release of the Maxwell-Blanche Interview

• Justice Department Activities: The DOJ released transcripts of Deputy AG Todd Blanche’s interview with Ghislaine Maxwell. Blanche is President Trump’s former personal defense attorney, raising questions about conflicts of interest and the interview’s legitimacy.
• Panelists: Alicia Menendez (anchor), Glenn Thrush (NYT), Melanie Zenona (NBC), Lisa Rubin (MSNBC Legal), Andrew Weissman (former DOJ), Rob D’Amico (FBI, ret.), Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthy (D-IL).

Notable Quotes:

• Alicia Menendez: “This interview, recorded July 24th… took place under a cloud of controversy. Maxwell… is seeking a pardon from Donald Trump while her own legal fight plays out in court.” (03:01)

2. Maxwell’s Account of Trump and Epstein

• Maxwell denies seeing Trump receive a massage or witnessing “inappropriate” behavior, characterizing Trump and Epstein’s relationship as merely social.
• She consistently states she does not recall key details (e.g., Mar-a-Lago spa, recruiting masseuses).

Notable Quotes:

• Ghislaine Maxwell: “President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. …I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming president now. And I like him, and I’ve always liked him.” (11:56)

3. Maxwell’s Credibility and Motives

• Panelists question Maxwell’s credibility, citing her prior perjury, history of lying to courts/victims, and her legal incentives.
• Andrew Weissman: “Judge Paul Engelmeier pointed out that she lied to victims, she lied to the court… So when you listen to and read what she has to say, can you believe her?” (04:55)
• Questions whether the interview’s setting—led by someone with close ties to Trump—calls the process’s independence into question.

4. Maxwell’s Claim about Epstein’s Death

• Maxwell expresses disbelief that Epstein died by suicide, suggesting (without evidence) that prisoners can be paid to kill in prison.
• Ghislaine Maxwell: “I do not believe he died by suicide.” (03:41)

5. DOJ’s Transparency and Motives

• The DOJ simultaneously releases a first batch of Epstein files to the House Oversight Committee, under subpoena.
• Capitol Hill Response: Bipartisan impatience for full, unredacted disclosure; suspicion about slow-walking documents.
• Melanie Zenona: “The hope right now... is that not only the release of some of these files but also now what we’re seeing with the transcripts being publicly released from the DOJ will help calm furor… But that very much remains to be seen.” (17:21)

6. Panelist Concerns about the Interview Process

• Unprecedented Interview: DOJ’s #2 interviewing a defendant with personal ties to the president is described as “extremely weird” and “not normal.” (Glenn Thrush, 09:17)
• The lack of career DOJ lawyers or FBI agents is worrying; suggests responses were “rehearsed” and interview lacked rigor.
• Rob D’Amico: “Anytime… anyone above the case agent… is in those interviews… something is wrong.” (47:07)

7. Key Testimony and its Political Framing

• Lisa Rubin: Points out careful wording in Blanche’s questions, likely to avoid answers harmful to Trump or Mar-a-Lago.
• Lisa Rubin: “There are places here where you can already see things that are belied by the evidence.” (12:27)

8. Virginia Giuffre Allegations and Rebuttal

• Maxwell denies recruiting masseuses from Mar-a-Lago for Epstein and, specifically, any connection to Virginia Giuffre, now deceased.
• Rubin notes that the questions and answers serve to make Giuffre appear unreliable while she cannot defend herself.

9. Political and Congressional Dynamics

• Bipartisan interest in document release is motivated both by transparency demands and political pressure from the “MAGA base.”
• Calls mount for Maxwell to testify under oath before Congress; she requests immunity in return.
• Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthy: “I would much rather examine her… after seeing all the documents… If you think that she might be fibbing…” (38:31)

10. Parallel Developments: FBI Raid on John Bolton

• Episode briefly shifts to consider whether the FBI’s raid on Trump-critic John Bolton is designed to distract from Epstein revelations.
• Conflicting views about whether FBI’s handling of Bolton’s search mirrors the Mar-a-Lago search and the potential for political retaliation.

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Important Timestamps & Segment Highlights

• [03:01] Maxwell’s account of Trump/Epstein relationship; denial of direct knowledge of wrongdoing.
• [03:41] Maxwell questions Epstein’s “suicide.”
• [04:55] Panel highlights: Assessing Maxwell’s motives, credibility, and what to make of her claims.
• [09:17] Glenn Thrush: DOJ’s unprecedented process, political implications of the transcript release.
• [11:56] Maxwell’s laudatory comments on Trump read aloud.
• [12:27] Lisa Rubin analyzes lawyerly precision of questioning, calls out places Maxwell’s account diverges from records.
• [15:37] Melanie Zenona: Capitol Hill receives thousands of pages from DOJ; ongoing document release dynamics.
• [19:41] Survivors’ credibility attacked by Maxwell; calls for consideration of all documentation.
• [32:31] Capitol Hill maneuvering for Maxwell testimony; demands for immunity.
• [33:50] Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthy: Congress’s response, demands for full document dump, White House accused of obstructing.
• [39:52] FBI’s search of Bolton; suspected as distraction; panel discusses political implications (Alicia & Krishnamoorthy).
• [47:07] Rob D’Amico: DOJ’s interview method is “absolutely not the norm,” flags major procedural concerns.
• [49:16] Maxwell claims “no memory” of Trump’s birthday cards; further illustration of deniability and limits of her testimony.
• [53:12] Andrew Weissman: Maxwell’s denial of opportunity to speak with government is false; she only did so for privileges.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Andrew Weissman [04:55]: “So even if you took everything she said to the bank… she is not providing clear, firsthand testimony that… exculpates the current president.”
• Glenn Thrush [09:17]: “All this process is not normal… There’s not a lot of precedent for what happened.”
• Lisa Rubin [12:27]: “The questions are worded… so as not to elicit an answer [Blanche] doesn’t want.”
• Ghislaine Maxwell [11:56]: “President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. …I like him, and I’ve always liked him.”
• Ghislaine Maxwell [03:41]: “I do not believe he died by suicide.”
• Alicia Menendez [19:41]: “Can we pull up all of the things that Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted of? Just to level set…”
• Melanie Zenona [32:32]: “She wanted congressional immunity. She wanted to have the list of questions and demands… Republicans said absolutely not.”
• Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthy [34:52]: “Unfortunately, they did not produce all of them at once as we demanded. Instead, they’re kind of slow walking this a bit.”
• Rob D’Amico [47:07]: “Anytime… anyone above the case agent… is in those interviews… something is wrong.”
• Lisa Rubin [50:29]: “He is trying to get as many exculpatory answers for the President as possible.”
• Andrew Weissman [53:12]: “She only talked to the government here after being given a proper agreement, which is a form of immunity.”

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Thematic Summary

• Transparency vs. Obfuscation: The episode revolves around whether the DOJ and White House are genuinely being transparent or strategically managing a damaging narrative. There is bipartisan congressional skepticism about selective releases and heavily redacted files.
• Legitimacy and Political Interference: Interview procedure breaks established DOJ norms, fueling suspicions that law enforcement is being used politically to manage fallout from the Epstein scandal—especially regarding Trump.
• Impact on Survivors: Maxwell uses the platform to assail victim credibility, while her answers are shaped and limited by precise questioning from an interviewer with prior loyalties.
• Congressional Action and Future Steps: Republican and Democratic lawmakers, under intense pressure from the public and their own party bases, are converging on demands for complete, unfiltered disclosure—and the possibility of bringing Maxwell before Congress remains open.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This installment provides a deep, critical look at the unprecedented DOJ interview of Ghislaine Maxwell and the first release of Epstein-related government files to Congress. The panel methodically examines the credibility of Maxwell’s answers, their political usefulness, and the broader implications for transparency and law enforcement norms in an election year. If you want insight into the latest Epstein disclosures, their relationship to the Trump White House, and the battle on Capitol Hill for answers, this episode is essential listening.

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Transcript

[Andrew Weissman]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Deadline White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

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[Andrew Weissman]

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[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

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[Alicia Menendez]

Hi everyone. It is 4 o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. We come on the air with breaking news and major developments in the Jeffrey Epstein case. Just the last hour, the Justice Department has released transcripts and audio from the questioning of Epstein co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell by Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, who, as you will recall, was once the President's personal defense attorney. We are still here combing through all of it. Our panel of reporters and experts are going to help us go through it bit by bit. The other major development today, the Justice Department has begun sending the first tranche of the Epstein files to the House Oversight Committee. Pursuant to the committee subpoena, we're going to have a member of that committee on with us later in the program. Okay, so here's what we can show you from that interview with Ghislaine Maxwell, starting with Maxwell being asked about Epstein's relationship with Donald Trump. Take a listen.

[Andrew Weissman]

Did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Never.

[Andrew Weissman]

Did you ever observe. You said that you.

[Glenn Thrush]

I mean, have you seen.

[Andrew Weissman]

There's photographspublic photographs of Mr. Epstein and President Trump together.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes.

[Andrew Weissman]

And there's photographs. I think you're in some of the photographs as well.

[Glenn Thrush]

Those all appear to be social settings.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes, that's my memory. If there were social settings. I don't know Epstein's, if he had. Whatever the nature of the President's friendship, if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein, I was never witnessed. I think they were friendly like people are in social settings. I don't think they were close friends or. I certainly never witnessed the president in any of. I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance.

[Alicia Menendez]

This interview, recorded July 24th of this year, took place under a cloud of controversy. Maxwell has been at the center of questions and concerns about the Trump administration's botched handling of the Epstein case that has escalated with bipartisan backlash and anger from Americans on both sides. Maxwell is seeking a pardon from Donald Trump while her own legal fight plays out in court. She has asked the Supreme Court to review her case. Here is more from her interview. Here she is telling Todd Blanche that she believes Jeffrey Epstein did not die by suicide.

[Andrew Weissman]

Do you.

[Glenn Thrush]

So you think he was.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

He was.

[Andrew Weissman]

He did not die by suicide, given all the things we just talked about.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I do not believe he died by suicide.

[Glenn Thrush]

And do you believe that?

[Andrew Weissman]

Do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

No, I don't.

[Glenn Thrush]

And I ask that because.

[Andrew Weissman]

If you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail or that he.

[Glenn Thrush]

Had kind of a list or that.

[Andrew Weissman]

He had reasons to have people hate him, why would somebody kill him in prison?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

In prison where I am, they will kill you or they will pay. Somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you.

[Alicia Menendez]

That is where we start today with New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush. Also joining us, NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Melanie Zenona. Plus MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin and former top official at the doj, and MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman. Andrew Weissman, I know we are all working our way through these documents through this transcript. Your top line.

[Andrew Weissman]

I think that people need to sort of remember a couple things. One, they need to remember who Ghislaine Maxwell is. In other words, is she believable? So remember that Judge Paul Engelmeier pointed out that she lied to victims, she lied to the court, she lied to in a civil deposition, she lied to pretrial services. That is what the judge found, the judge who was overseeing the issue of whether transcripts would be released. And so that's a good reminder in terms of when you listen to and read what she has to say, can you believe her? You also have the circumstances of her interview. Remember that she got something already for it, which was she was transferred to sort of a camp right after giving this interview. Third thing to remember is there would be substantial reason to think that her answers were somewhat rehearsed. Remember that there is a friendship. There's nothing improper with that between Todd Blanche, the president's former defense counsel, and now the deputy attorney general, he had a friendship and has a friendship with her lawyer, her defense lawyer. And so when you go into these interviews, it would not be unusual for Todd Blanche to know very well what she is going to say on certain things. So those are all reasons that you would be thinking about, is she telling the truth? What is her motive? And so it doesn't mean she's lying, but those are things you'd want to consider as to whether you can believe or not. And then finally there's, what does she have to say? And so far, and obviously we're all just waiting or making our way through this, a lot of what she is saying is not as a firsthand percipient witness saying, I know for sure, because I was with Jeffrey Epstein all the time. Even if you got through all of this and thought, you know what, she is telling the truth up one side and down the other side, she doesn't actually exculpate anyone by saying, I did not personally witness this or I did not personally think he was doing anything, quote, inappropriate, unquote, a word that, you know, it's hard to imagine. Somebody, you know, I'd like to know whether she thinks her own conduct was inappropriate when she has been found to have been aiding a sexual predator and herself engaging in that conduct as found again by a judge and by a jury. It's not just me saying it. So even if you took everything she said to the bank, you know, she is not providing sort of clear, firsthand testimony that, you know, exculpates the current president. So all of that, I think, is something that one has to consider. And sort of the final thing I consider is I would feel a lot better about whether I should believe her or not if the career attorneys on the case, the people like Maureen Comey, who was actually fired by this Justice Department, was present, if the career FBI agents were present, so that I knew that it was a serious interview, trying to get at the truth. So let me just give you a very, very quick example. You could imagine somebody who's trying to get the truth saying, so Ms. Maxwell, you actually don't know one way or the other whether the President did something inappropriate because you were not there. You do not know for a fact one way or the other. You can't actually add anything to this. All you're really doing is saying as well, you were there, you did not see anything. And so I think I sort of am concerned about the sort of dispassionate nature or the lack thereof of the actual interview. That's going on.

[Alicia Menendez]

Okay. A lot more questions, I think one could say, Andrew, than answers. Glenn, walk us through your reporting, what you were hearing from the Justice Department about the decision to release these transcripts.

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, there was some internal debate. My understanding it was by no means a unanimous decision to put this stuff out. I think there's been kind of a debate over the past few weeks as to whether or not this would raise more questions than it will answer. That having Blanche come out and produce what at least prima facie, and we've got a bunch of people looking at it, and I've spent about 45 minutes looking at it, appears to be giving the government and the White House all of the answers from a political perspective that they could have hoped for. Whether or not that is going to slake the demand for more information and these accusations among Trump's base are that all of their former allies are now participating in a cover up. One thing I want to say, just follow up on what Andrew said before. This is on the website, the Department of Justice website. All the people who've released this information are officials with important job titles. But this is extremely weird. All of this process is not normal. Nothing that was done in this case, in this whole scenario with Blanche going down there last month and interviewing Maxwell is in the book. In fact, it is, I hate to use the word unprecedented, but there is not a lot of precedent for what happened. First of all, Todd Blanche, the number two person in the Justice Department, is Donald Trump's former defense lawyer. And if you listen to the audio, it sounds like a direct examination in a courtroom without a cross examination. That was an observation that a former DOJ employee, a former DOJ prosecutor sent me. And secondly, Ghislaine Maxwell has every incentive in the world to say positive things about Trump. And there's this passage in there that's extraordinary in which he says he's a great president and he's achieved all these wonderful things. I think the question that arises here is why did this happen? What was his initial purpose, Blanche, in going down there? Was it to find facts in a case that had already been exhaustively investigated, or was it to provide a political result for the White House? I think it's going to be interesting to see what the reaction to this. And it is also noteworthy that this is coming out late on a Friday afternoon, several hours after they executed a search warrant at John Bolton's house. This is not Monday morning, 8am stuff. This is end of summer, Friday afternoon.

[Alicia Menendez]

Indeed it is. Let me read the section that you just alluded to. Glenn, for those of you who are following along at home, this is in pages 104 to 109. This is Ghislaine Maxwell talking about Donald Trump. She says, and as far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I find I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the president now. And I like him, and I've always liked him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship with him. Lisa Rubin, what do you make of that mention?

[Lisa Rubin]

Well, I make of it basically what Glenn makes of it, which is she is overly solicitous of the person who has given her ultimately the opportunity to speak with Todd Blanche. But, Alicia, other than her mentions of President Trump herself, one of the things I find really interesting here is how carefully worded Todd Blanche's questions are so as not to elicit an answer he doesn't want. So, yes, we can make a lot out of the fact that Tod has a prior association with the president, but by no means is he a bad lawyer or a stupid lawyer. I want to read to you from page 108. This is after they're done talking about President Trump, Todd Blanche asks Ghislaine Maxwell, do you know whether masseuses from Mar A Lago spa ended up giving massages, private massages, to Mr. Epstein? I'm not asking for what you may have read, but from at the time, your personal knowledge. Do you know whether that's true? And she responds, I don't. I don't recall. Is it possible? Yes, but I don't remember. I don't remember that. And then he asks her again whether she recalls ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar a Lago, and she says, that didn't happen. The reason I'm bringing this up is because Virginia Giuffre was infamously recruited from the Mar A Lago locker room, where she was working what was supposed to be a fun summer job. In fact, Ghislaine Maxwell, according to Virginia Giuffre, approached her as she was reading a book about how to become a masseuse. That was a career opportunity she was interested in as a high school student at the time. Ghislaine Maxwell, according to Virginia Dufrey, pounced on that and used that as an opportunity to recruit her into Epstein's world. But was she a masseuse, technically, at Mar a Lago? She was not. And I was really struck by the precision of the wording here, so as not to get into that. The other thing that strikes me, and I want to go back to what Andrew said, is that we have to keep in mind who Ghislaine Maxwell is and was a person who was charged with multiple counts of perjury by the Southern District, although those were ultimately dismissed when they secured her conviction. There are places here where you can already see things that are belied by the evidence. She, for example, says that one of the prosecutors in Florida, the federal prosecutors who was responsible for the investigation of Jeffrey Epstein that resulted in that sweetheart deal with Alex Acosta is a woman named Anne Marie Vilafagna. And she says that Anne Marie Vilafagnia had an unholy alliance with Brad Edwards, who is a lawyer who has represented many of the victims of both Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell for years. She says that Emery Villafanya had said in a report that the Department of Justice put out five years ago that Brett Edwards was essentially the only lawyer for victims that she was allowed to talk to. The report says the exact opposite in a footnote. So everybody has to take what Ghislaine Maxwell is saying with a big, huge, you know, mass of sodium, not just a grain of salt, given historically how she has resisted the truth, including responsibility for her own conduct here.

[Alicia Menendez]

Melanie, what has the response been on Capitol Hill?

[Melanie Zenona]

Well, you know, on Capitol Hill, we actually got a development in the last hour where the DOJ actually handed over its first batch of documents related to the Epstein case. This comes after the committee actually issued a subpoena that was supported by the Democrats on the committee, and was it trio of Republicans. And according to the House Oversight Committee, they received thousands of pages of documents related to that case. Now, we don't know actually what's in those files just yet. The committee says it intends to release the files and the documents once it gets all of them handed over. And after it consults with the doj, after it redacts some of these files to try to protect the victims. So it's really unclear how long that process is going to take. But Chairman James Comer, he's the Republican head of the committee, he put out a really interesting statement right after this was released, taking a swipe at the Biden doj, saying the Trump DOJ is moving at a pace far faster than anything ever produced by the Biden doj. And the reason why that's notable is because Republican leadership and obviously the White House have been under just this enormous pressure to be more transparent and to release the files. This is something that their own maga base was clamoring for, but they didn't want to go down that route. There's actually a bipartisan push on Capitol Hill from a Republican to Thomas Massie and a Democrat, Ro Khanna, that would have immediately released the files without pretty much any redactions. That's something that they have been threatening to push after the August recess when they return in September. So the hope right now among the leadership and some GOP sources that I've been talking to is that not only the release of some of these files to Congress, but also now what we're seeing with the transcripts being publicly released from the DOJ itself will help calm some of that furor they've seen on Capitol Hill. But that very much remains to be seen.

[Alicia Menendez]

Alicia, Glenn, talk to me about the timing of this. You mentioned the fact that this happened on the same day that the FBI is searching John Bolton's home. It's also happening to Melanie's point, the same time that the DOJ is delivering its first tranche of documents of the Epstein files to Congress. Your sense of why they are releasing the transcripts today?

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, you know, I think this has been the product of a, this has been the product of a sorry source call. It's a product of a, a lot of internal debate, I think how to handle this Epstein crisis has been obsessing the White House and rejiggering the communication strategy. I think we saw, and again, this is correlation is not causality. But we have seen this bombardment. I mean, for those of us who've covered the first six months, the past 10 days to two weeks as they're trying to fight this Epstein story have been, you feel like a storm chaser. The administration just keeps coming up with these big ticket moves. One of them obviously was the nationalization of DC's law enforcement, which came again on the heels of some of the, these, these Epstein revelations. So this has not been a great summer. The president's approval ratings, while relatively stable, have plummeted on the economy. He is not achieving the same these sort of across the board results on his foreign policy efforts. And the Epstein thing, while it has died down and polling shows is not front and center, is just one of those issues that won't go away. Weirdly, it reminds me when I covered the Obama administration of the oil spill in the Gulf, it kept going on and on and on and they couldn't figure out a way, even though they had access to all this technology and the vast powers of the federal government, the story just kept going on Every single day. I think the question is whether or not this interview with Blanche, which I think has left us as reporters somewhat dissatisfied and unsure of what really happened, is going to calm the people who have been most upset by this, and that is Donald Trump's supporters.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right. And the people who want that level of detail, what they really want is a data dump. They don't want a single transcript, a single file. They want to be able, Andrew, to actually move through these documents themselves. Can we pull up all of the things that Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted of? Just a level set here, convicted in 2021 of conspiracy to entice minors to travel, to engage in illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors, to participate in illegal sex acts, transporting a minor to participate in illegal sex acts, sex trafficking, conspiracy and sex trafficking of a minor. I bring that all up, Andrew, in the context of two things that jumped out at me from these transcripts. Number one is something that happens very close to the top of this interview where Ghislaine Maxwell effectively complains that she has never spoken with a member of the government about her case. And then another section where she seems to have undermine any of the survivors who have come forward saying these so called witnesses have been given every reason to embellish or outright lie. They're rewarded financially, legally, reputationally for saying things about me that are simply not true. When you put those two things together, who has her audience here and what is it that she is attempting to accomplish?

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, I think her audience is the President of the United States. I mean, we have seen this in many, many different contexts. But you know, let's just, let's just take her at her word that the witnesses who testified at the trial against her and offered their stories with respect to being victims of her and of Jeffrey Epstein. Yes, it is fair to ask what their motive is, but everything she listed there could apply to her too. So she is sitting there saying, well, don't believe them because they were given and had a reason to give because they wanted benefits. I would say first of all, her reasons. Remember she has a 20 year sentence after trial and so she has every reason to seek better prison conditions. That's already happened. And she has every reason to seek leniency with respect to her sentence because she wants to get out of jail anyway, would. And so we know the President is very fast to pull the trigger with respect to according people pardons who have done horrendous things. There's so many examples of that. You just have to look at January 6th to see instances of that, actually hundreds of instances of that, including people who assaulted police officers. So that's her motive. I am struck by something which is there really isn't any sort of effort to push back on this. She's clearly denying that she did anything wrong. I would have asked the question, which is the President has said, and is on record saying that he understood that Jeffrey Epstein liked younger women, that he, I'm paraphrasing his rather sort of cavalier, vulgar phrase, certainly in retrospect, about his sort of sexual predilections. And I'd want to know, if you think that everything was so appropriate, how is it that he knew to say that? What did you observe? And that way, if she says, well, I don't know, I didn't observe it, you sort of point out that she is not really the right witness. She doesn't know enough to actually exculpate either the President or maybe the whole series of people. And just final point, Alicia. I just think with every single thing that we see being released, if I were the audience, I would ask, where is the rest of it? This is a drip, drip, drip. Why not just release everything? What are you, what are you doing? Why are you doing this in this sort of calculated way? If you want us to trust you, if you want to say you're being transparent, you have the ability, as the Southern District judge who most recently commented on this case said, you have the ability any day to release all of it so that we're not looking at just selective crumbs and everyone can see everything. So don't tell me you're being transparent when you're not.

[Alicia Menendez]

One more question for you, Andrew Weissman. Why do you think she weighed in on whether or not Epstein died by suicide?

[Andrew Weissman]

I think that is a really fascinating piece. I mean, I do think that it may be something that she truly believes. I mean, remember she had a very long term relationship with him. And so it may be just as a personal matter. She just chooses not to believe that. I do think it's important to know. She was just speculating. She does not know any more than any single person watching this on your program. She does not have firsthand information on that. And so she really is not. You know, this is the kind of thing if you're a prosecutor, you're like, you would. I was struck by Todd Blanche using the phrase, do you have any speculation that is 101 for what you do not ask. You don't want a witness to speculate. And so, you know, I can see why psychologically, she would not want to believe that about somebody you had a close relationship to. And so it's largely an irrelevancy. But I do think with respect to the MAGA base, it may serve to fuel this issue rather than quell it, which is obviously what the Department of Justice and the Trump administration is trying to do.

[Alicia Menendez]

Glenn Thrush, thank you so much for being with us. Melanie, Andrew, Lisa, you are sticking with me. We're going to have much more on this story, including the Epstein files. Congress now has in its hands a first tranche of those files. We're going to talk to a member of Congress about it. And later in the program, the FBI searches the home and office of a prominent Trump critic, former National Security Adviser John Bolton. A potentially stunning escalation in the DOJ is targeting people Trump proceeds as his enemies. All those stories and so much more when Deadline White House continues after this. Don't go anywhere.

[Andrew Weissman]

This is Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast, the promo, and in 30 seconds I'm going to tell you why you should check out the show. I, the host, Scott Aukerman, have a lighthearted conversation with famous celebrities like Jon Hamm, Alison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bobby, Odin Kirk, just to name a few. Things go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians, as well as some new hilarious voices. Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast Listen every Monday wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place.

[Lisa Rubin]

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[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I don't remember when the President purchased Mar? A Lago so from whenever, it turns out, turned into a club. I went there and I was loved going there.

[Andrew Weissman]

Did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Mostly alone. Only times I went there was for an event, maybe once or twice.

[Glenn Thrush]

And do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever went there?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I. I believe he did, but again, we really. Well, he didn't.

[Andrew Weissman]

He didn't.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Take me with him all the time. So he would go and. Oh, right. He never. I never. Well, he did from time to time, but he would go alone. I think he would maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly did.

[Alicia Menendez]

Joining our conversation, retired FBI agent and MSNBC national security analyst Rob d'. Amico. Melanie, Lisa and Andrew are back with us. Lisa, there is an extended section there about the spa about whether or not she ever heard Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had done anything inappropriate with masseuse's questions about Ghislaine Maxwell. Her actual testimony being. I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar a Lago for that, as far as I remember. Why does this section exist in this transcript?

[Lisa Rubin]

I think that it's an opportunity for Ghislaine Maxwell to dispute the allegations by Virginia Giuffre, who unfortunately is now deceased and can't defend herself. But that was one issue of serious contention between them. Virginia Giuffre says that her entry into Jeffrey Epstein's world came because she was sitting outside her summer job at Mar a Lago, where she worked as basically a locker room attendant, and she was reading a book about massage or careers in massage. And that's when Ghislaine Maxwell approached her and offered to hook her up with an opportunity to learn more about massage. She understood originally that this was going to be about a professional opportunity, as so many of the young women lured into Jeffrey Epstein's orbit did. But, Alicia, as we were saying before the commercial break, I thought that Todd Blanche's wording was very careful, in particular because Virginia Duffrey, at the time that she alleges she was recruited, was 16 years old. She was not working as a masseuse. She was probably working as, like, a towel attendant in the Mar A Lago spa. Nonetheless, Todd's words are very careful there. He asks Ghislaine Maxwell whether she ever had any involvement in recruiting masseuses to give Jeffrey Epstein massages. Masseuse is from Mar a Lago. She says she didn't have any involvement with that and she is not aware of any. That is an exchange that makes Ghislaine Maxwell look very good, makes Virginia Giuffre look like a liar at a time where she cannot testify or otherwise give a public statement to the contrary. I hope that those who are close to her, as offensive as this interview was to her in its very existence, will speak for her and explain why this section is so deeply and horrifically offensive to their sister and loved one's memory.

[Alicia Menendez]

It's especially interesting, Melanie, given that you're going to have some of the survivors on Capitol Hill testifying themselves, potentially being able to give testimony that is in contradiction and contrast to some of this. I want to go back to a point that Andrew Weissman made, which is that if what you are striving for is transparency and if what you are arguing that you as an administration or as the DOJ is doing is being radically transparent, then you don't do this drip by drip by drip. You do this by releasing everything that you have. Your sense of how Democrats, Democrats on the Hill plan to push Republicans push this administration for a full release.

[Melanie Zenona]

Yeah, I mean, they're going to be keeping this issue front and center when they return from their congressional break in September. Like we said in the last segment, there have been some documents that have been released as of the last hour, we're told thousands of pages of documents related to the Epstein case have been turned over by the DOJ. But there are 100,000 records in total related to this case. So it's just a small drop in the bucket in this first initial step. Some of the questions going forward, though, is how do Republicans on Capitol Hill deal with the MAGA push to have the full release? There was also some discussion about potentially bringing Ghislaine Maxwell up on Capitol Hill for a congressional hearing, for a deposition to hear from her directly. But there was some back and forth because she was making some pretty hefty demands.

[Alicia Menendez]

Demands.

[Melanie Zenona]

She wanted congressional immunity. She wanted to have the list of questions and demands. The first piece at least is something that Republicans said absolutely not. So they're still in a back and forth. But it's not out of the realm of possibility that she could wind up on Capitol Hill at some point as well as Republicans try to throw some red meat to their base here. They have been holding depositions over the last few weeks behind closed doors with a number of other Democratic and Republicans Republican officials, including attorney former Attorney General Bill Barr. But on Capitol Hill for Democrats, this is just a golden opportunity for them. They see a really strong line of attack. Robert Garcia, he is the chairman, excuse me, the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee. He has been really front and center Pushing on this, saying, why aren't all the files being released immediately? Why are they being slow, slow walked? This is a drumbeat that is just not going to go away as much as GOP leaders would like.

[Alicia Menendez]

Melody Zenona, I am going to free you up to go report. And if you have anything else, please come back. We're here for two hours. Thank you for what you have already brought to us. And for more on what the House Oversight Committee has received, we're joined now by Illinois Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy, member of that committee. All right, Congressman, what can you tell us about the files that are now in the hands of the committee?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

Well, they just landed in the Oversight Committee and they're being literally reviewed as we speak. There's, it's a fairly large set of documents. I think that there's going to be a lot of work over the weekend and all of us are eager to learn what's in those documents.

[Alicia Menendez]

What is it you're looking for?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

Well, basically, we want to see a number of things. We want to see, you know, who was involved in enabling the sex trafficking ring that Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell led. Why is Donald Trump so averse to having these files disclosed? We want to know, you know, who might be among us in the public that somehow implicated that might be dangerous, dangerous to others. I think there's a number of questions like that and others that are outstanding.

[Alicia Menendez]

I wonder how long. I know you said folks are going to be working through the weekend. How long you expect this process to take?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

Well, this is, this is the first production of documents. Unfortunately, they did not produce all of them all at once as we demanded. Instead, they are kind of slow walking this a bit. And so they produce this first tranche today. I think they'll produce more over time. We will demand that they produce all of them immediately. But as you know, the White House is doing everything they can to obstruct full transparency on these files. I think that's also, by the way, why they're, you know, showing the transcript of this strange interview between Mr. Blanche and Glenn Maxwell. They're talking about grand jury transcripts. They're talking about everything except fully disclosing the Epstein files. And that's what we should be focused on right now.

[Alicia Menendez]

The doj, they're under a subpoena from your committee. You have Democratic ranking member Robert Garcia saying this this week, quote, the American people will not accept anything short of the full unredacted Epstein files. The administration must comply with our subpoena bylaw. So what happens if they don't? What do you do then?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

Well, the interesting thing here, Alicia, is that Democrats and Republicans, at least on the Oversight Committee, are almost united in terms of their determination to get these particular files. In light of that, obviously, if the DOJ does not produce files, if they don't do what they are supposed to do legally under the subpoena, then we'd have to go to court to enforce the subpoena and there would be a legal process associated with that. Something tells me at that point that the MAGA base would be up in arms demanding the disclosure of these files. And so this might be this one area where I think Democrats and Republicans can come together and demand accountability of this administration that's otherwise acting with impunity on every other front.

[Alicia Menendez]

There's also the question of the public release of these documents, which is interesting to think about, given the release of these transcripts playing out in real time, in tandem. Democrats have warned it could be limited, it could be controlled by Republicans. How do you counter that?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

Well, I think that we have to be vigilant about anything that's being withheld by the committee. I'm talking about the Republicans in sharing with the public these files, and obviously, you know, within the confines of what we can legally do, point out any, anything that maybe should be produced. I think this is one of those moments again, where I do think that there's a large, large number of people who are watching very carefully from the MAGA base and other quarters exactly what's being disclosed, what was promised versus what's being disclosed and exposing to them. It's almost like we have to, in other words, talk to a group of people that maybe we don't necessarily always talk to and signal to them what's being disclosed versus what was promised.

[Alicia Menendez]

I want to connect these two stories, though. The connection is rather obvious. These transcripts that have just been released by the DOJ of Todd Blanche interviewing Ghislaine Matt Maxwell, and the fact that there is interest in having Ghislaine Maxwell appear before the committee. Just, first of all, just given her history of being charged with perjury, for example, do you think that there is actually something valuable to be gained by having her testify?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

Possibly. I mean, I think. I think I would much rather examine her or question her in a hearing setting or a deposition after seeing all the documents, because you need the documents to really understand whether, you know, there's validity to what she's saying and to have an effective cross examination. If you think that she might be fibbing I personally think that it, she's going to say whatever the heck is necessary to try to get a pardon or some type of clemency from Donald Trump. And, and that's why it's even more incumbent that we get all the files. I don't think that we should necessarily question her before that happens.

[Alicia Menendez]

And just a technical question. Do you have any update on the House oversight subpoena, any sense of if that is actually moving the likelihood of her coming and testifying?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

Well, the last that I heard, she was actually noticed up for September 29th. But the, the other caveat, the, the thing that her attorney said that they are demanding is that they only want to come to Capitol Hill after the appeal that they've made to the Supreme Court has been ruled upon. So I don't know when that's going to come down or be handed down. So I think there's some moving parts. But as of right now, there's a date on the books for her to appear on Capitol Hill.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congressman, I need not tell you, on any other day, we would be leading with the FBI raid of John Bolton's home, Trump's former national security adviser turned staunch Trump critic. Your thoughts on the timing on this choice by the FBI? What do you make of this search of John Bolton's home?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy]

Well, look, I think that we always have to be vigilant and enforce the laws surrounding the treatment of classified information, information. But the manner in which they did this today, the tweets from Kash Patel and Pam Bondi And J. And J.D. vance suggest to me this was political retribution and an attempt to distract attention from the production of these Epstein files. I think we can predict every day they are going to do something to distract attention from the Epstein files. And by the way, the complete mismanagement of the economy, which I'm hearing about all the time here in Illinois, I'm in Southern Illinois today. People are really hurting and they feel like this government run by Donald Trump is not doing what it promised. Groceries are through the roof, rents are through the roof, and now electricity bills have hit all time highs. So in light of that mismanagement and the Epstein files, I think that Donald Trump is going to do everything he can to distract attention from that.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congressman Raja Krishnamurthy, thank you so much for joining us. Andrew Weissman, I want to bring it back to you for, for one quick question, especially given the way that the congressman just detailed all of that. Do you see a certain purposeful parallelism between some of the contours of the search at Mar A Lago and the search at John Bolton's home.

[Andrew Weissman]

So I actually am very concerned that people will say, oh, this is just doing the same thing that happened to the former president. That by all accounts, and obviously we do not know all the facts yet. And so it's important to note that we're sort of looking through a glass darkly here. But there's reporting that John Bolton, unlike the former president, had no notice whatsoever that there was going to be a search of his home or a second search of his office. Remember, with respect to Mar A Lago, that happened, that search happened only after repeated and multiple weeks long efforts to get that information back to the government. And so it is that contrast, I think, is really important in terms of one being extremely heavy handed, that's today. And again, maybe it's justified, we don't know. But it certainly is not the sort of kid gloves approach that was taken by the Department of Justice with respect to the former president. And by the way, I'm not criticizing that approach of having a kid gloves approach, but the former president left no alternative in order to have those documents returned. And so it's a little rich also for this administration knowing that Donald Trump was not just accused, but we now know so much of the evidence that was going to be presented in court. So it's not just allegations. We actually have the evidence that was adduced. And so we have a basis to believe that he is guilty of those charges and was mishandling classified information. And so the idea that this is the administration that's going to do that with respect to John Bolton is a little rich, but with the caveat we do not know all the facts yet. And it may be that this is warranted. Final point, that this is one where it seems like the FBI or somebody else in the government has leaked this. That is not the way traditionally the Department of Justice operates. It does signal that this is. At the very least, they want it to be sort of performative and they want to have this sort of chilling effect of this happening. But that is not how the Department of Justice is supposed to operate. What you're supposed to do is you do the investigation if it doesn't lead to an indictment. Nobody suffers this sort of public opprobrium of being under investigation. That is not what is happening here. That is something that Donald Trump was entitled to when he was being investigated. It's something that John Bolton is entitled to now. But because of those leaks that has been denied to him. And just to be absolutely clear, that is a norm that was followed by Democratic and Republican Department of Justice officials, that it's a bipartisan norm that people have that we're seeing violated here.

[Alicia Menendez]

Rob d', Amico, on the other side of this break, I want to get you to weigh in on the violation of those norms. But first, let me sneak that in. Coming up, more on what we're uncovering in these transcripts released of the deputy attorney general's interview with Ghislaine Maxwell. Stay with us.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Foreign.

[Andrew Weissman]

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[Glenn Thrush]

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[Andrew Weissman]

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[Alicia Menendez]

And we are back with Rob, Lisa and Andrew. Rob, we've spoken with our esteemed colleagues, the attorneys, about how unusual it is to have the deputy attorney general interview someone in this manner. And we've heard about it from sort of the legal perspective. I'm curious, just from an intelligence perspective, how strange this all must seem to you.

[Andrew Weissman]

It's absolutely not the norm. You have the case agent and lead prosecutor because they know the facts. It's a huge case. So that when you're asking questions and they answer them in a way that, you know doesn't conflate to the truth that those two can go at it and, you know, be aggressive at it. It's so important. We've had case agents flown around the world to interview folks. When I was in Afghanistan, we had kidnapping subjects. The case agent was in New York. We put her on a plane and we flew out there so she could talk to that person because she knew the facts. And anytime that the subject gets away from them, they, they. They're on them. And the other thing is, when you look at your other panelists that said his questions led her to answer a certain way, even though he didn't say anything the way he asked a question, she is smart enough to absolutely know how she should have answered and what answer they wanted. It just is so unusual. It's been done in other cases. And anytime I saw a deputy director or assistant director or anyone above the case agent, not even the squad supervisor should be in those interviews because they don't know the facts like the case agent and the prosecutor. So anytime that happens, something is wrong.

[Alicia Menendez]

Lisa Rubin, we've talked about a few of the exchanges in this transcript, though there is honestly not substantially all that much here. I want you to take a listen to one part that did jump out at us. This is about a reference to the Wall Street Journal's reporting about a card Donald Trump may or may not have sent to Jeffrey Epstein. Take a listen.

[Andrew Weissman]

The article talks about several names, but including the focus of the article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I don't.

[Andrew Weissman]

Do you think the articles. Well, do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes.

[Andrew Weissman]

Okay. What do you remember seeing?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I remember there was. There were some portions of that book, but what surprised me. Yeah. What surprised me was how few there were, because I thought, if you had those, where are the rest? There was none of Mr. Trump, in your discovery? In my discovery, sorry, President Trump. There was nothing from President Trump.

[Andrew Weissman]

And do you remember. But separate and apart from your discovery, do you remember one way or the other whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I do not remember.

[Andrew Weissman]

And the article that references the letter talks about, like, either a picture of a naked woman or something like that. Do you have any recollection of that?

[Alicia Menendez]

I do not. But just.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

No, I don't.

[Alicia Menendez]

Listen, Lisa Rubin, I'm not an attorney, but to me, that illustrates the point that Andrew Weissman made earlier about the fact that if you listen to this it doesn't sound like Todd Blanche is asking these questions as the Deputy ag. It sounds like he is asking and framing these questions as the president personal criminal attorney.

[Lisa Rubin]

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, he is trying to get as many exculpatory answers for the President as possible. I will point out that that exchange is not particularly exculpatory. All she says is that she saw a handful of letters that she remembers being from the birthday book in the course of discovery in her criminal case in New York, and that she didn't see all of those that she remembered. But when she was asked whether she recalled one from President Trump, she didn't know one way or the other. She's not saying it didn't definitively exist. She just is saying she doesn't know. And that sort of raises another point that Andrew had made, which is the limits of her personal knowledge as a witness here. Alicia, I do want to say that there are other points in these interviews where Ghislaine Maxwell makes some bolder statements before having to walk them back a little bit. And one that really sort of of captured my attention is when she's talking about what is now the infamous picture of Virginia Giuffre with Prince Andrew, who was known to be in Epstein's orbit and is a person that she alleges she was essentially pimped out to. According to Ghislaine Maxwell, on questioning by Todd Blanche, that picture was a fake. And she said that very plainly. But on further questioning, she then admits she doesn't know for sure that they were never all in the same room together. And she acknowledges it could have happened before stating definitively, well, I was never involved in essentially setting the two of them up for some sort of sexual encounter. That's a far cry from saying without any evidence, by the way, that this picture is a fake. And this is something that the Department of Justice could easily put to rest, because we know from this interview that the picture was obtained from Virginia Giuffre when she spoke with FBI agents in Australia, where she was living at the time. The so called Epstein files undoubtedly not only include that photo, but should include reflections on the photo or how it was authenticated by FBI agents, what the FBI and actual law enforcement felt about the photo. But instead, what we have is Ghislaine Maxwell saying declaratively, oh, this photo is a fake. That's a photo that caused such damage to Prince Andrew's reputation that he settled civil litigation with Virginia Giuffre. Maxwell herself settled civil litigation with Virginia Giuffre. And yet she is so cavalier in the early part to say that this is a fake without any evidence.

[Alicia Menendez]

Andrew Weissman, I have less than a minute left. I know you found something in the transcript you want to highlight. If you can do it in less than a minute, it's your time.

[Andrew Weissman]

Sure. On page seven, Glenn Maxwell may have started this interview with Whopper. She says, you know, I always wanted to talk to the government. I've never been afforded that opportunity. I was really keen to talk to anyone under any circumstances. Let's remember, she only talked to the government here after being given a proper agreement, which is a form of immunity. She's only willing to testify before the Senate if she's given all sorts of immunity and promises. She has had a right to testify at trial. She had a right to testify in the grand jury. I just find that her testimony here highly, highly questionable. And it's something that, again, the career prosecutors and the career FBI agents will know for sure whether this testimony that she gave is true or not. And just remember, if it's not true, it is yet another crime that she has committed, because it's a crime to lie to the FBI agent and to the deputy attorney general. But remember, what she got out of this was being transferred to a camp.

[Alicia Menendez]

Andrew Weissman brought it in in under a minute. Thank you, sir. Rob d', Amico, Lisa Rubin, thank you so much for being with us. Coming up next, the FBI searches the home of Trump critic and former national security adviser John Bolton. That story is right after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Andrew Weissman]

This is Comedy Bang Bang, the podcast, the promo. And in 30 seconds, I'm going to tell you why. You should check out the show. I, the host, Scott Aukerman, have a lighthearted convers with famous celebrities like Jon Hamm, Alison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few things, go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians, as well as some new hilarious voices. Comedy Bang Bang, the Podcast. Listen every Monday wherever you get your podcasts.