“Manhunt once again underway”

Summary

Deadline: White House – “Manhunt once again underway”

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guests: Glenn Thrush (NYT), Eddie Glaude (Princeton), Gov. Dan McKee, Police Chief Oscar Perez, Providence Mayor, FBI Special Agent Ted Docks, Ian Bassin (Protect Democracy)
Date: December 15, 2025

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Overview

This episode covers the tragic mass shooting at Brown University, the ongoing manhunt for the suspect, and the broader societal implications of recent gun violence. Host Nicolle Wallace leads a discussion with law enforcement officials and analysts, focusing on developments in the investigation, public safety concerns, government communications, and the emotional and political fallout following the attack.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Brown University Shooting: Facts & Victims

• Incident Recap:
  • Shooting occurred Saturday at Brown University, leaving 2 dead (students Ella Cook and Muhammad Aziz Umar Zakab) and 9 injured ([01:07]).
  • Both victims were young, accomplished students with promising futures.
• Community Grief:
  • The Brown community and Providence at large are described as "shaken" and facing profound loss, underscoring the personal impact of the tragedy.

Notable Quotes:

• “He had big dreams of becoming a neurosurgeon and helping people... he continues to be my family’s biggest role model.” – Muhammad’s sister, GoFundMe ([01:07])
• “It just seemed so unfair because he tried so hard and he went through so much just to wind up like this.” – Muhammad’s sister, as quoted by The Washington Post ([40:55])

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2. Law Enforcement Response & Manhunt Developments

• Initial Response and FBI Involvement:

  • Law enforcement initially detained a person of interest based on a tip pursued by the FBI, but released him due to lack of evidence ([02:33]-[03:43]).
  • FBI Director Kash Patel publicly highlighted the FBI's role via social media — a move criticized for possibly fueling community anxiety and confusion ([03:43]-[05:58]).
  • Glenn Thrush notes the discrepancy and, referencing a previous high-profile case, calls out the risk of premature or excessive information sharing.
    • “Going public with this sort of information can create far more complications, as we saw today, than they solve.” – Glenn Thrush ([03:43])

• Real-Time Press Conference and Updates:

  • Providence Mayor: Enhanced police presence throughout the city, focus on school safety, and gratitude for interagency cooperation (local, state, federal) ([08:01]-[10:37]).
  • Governor Dan McKee: Statewide coordination on safety, mental health outreach, and reassurance that maximum resources are deployed ([10:37]-[13:53]).
  • Police Chief Oscar Perez:
    • Acknowledged the investigation’s complexity and multiple agencies involved ([14:00]).
    • Called for public help in identifying the suspect, releasing photos and video of the suspect, and encouraging use of the tip line ([14:00]-[18:34]).
      • “We’re at the 49th hour and there’s no one that wants to put this individual in handcuffs than us.” – Chief Perez ([14:00])
    • Emphasized the importance of communicating accurate information, warning against rumors ([14:00]).

• FBI Special Agent Ted Docks:

  • Stressed the ongoing 24/7 efforts and introduced a $50,000 reward for information leading to the suspect’s identification and arrest ([18:44]).
  • “No amount of information is too small or irrelevant. We are also here to announce the FBI is now offering a reward...” ([18:44])
  • Detailed crime scene processing underway and urged public patience.

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3. Community Safety, Communication, and Emotional Fallout

• Communication Challenges:

  • Officials repeatedly try to reassure the public:
    • School is open, police are visibly present, “Providence remains a very safe city” – Mayor of Providence ([26:47])
    • Yet, journalists and Glenn Thrush challenge the logic of declaring safety with an armed, dangerous suspect at large ([35:37], [37:45]).
      • “What evidence do you have that he left? How can you say he’s armed and dangerous and Providence is safe?” – Journalist via Nicolle ([34:51])
      • “Chaos would be a great way to put it...” – Glenn Thrush ([35:37])

• Response to Press Questions:

  • Officials acknowledge difficulty in both reassuring residents and giving honest updates due to incomplete information.
  • Public is encouraged to participate by reviewing and sharing suspect images/videos.

• Community Emotion:

  • Mayor describes Providence as “a tight-knit community,” now feeling the loss in a deeply personal way ([26:47]).
  • Policymakers and analysts note the difficulty of restoring public confidence after such violence ([24:47]).

• Investigation Details:

  • 9mm handgun used; several rounds fired ([28:47]).
  • Investigation paths are “constantly changing” as new evidence emerges ([30:10], [31:39]).
  • No determination yet on whether the victims were targeted or if there was political motivation ([32:22]).

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4. Broader Societal Reflections: Gun Violence, Safety, and Social Cohesion

• Victims’ Stories as a Lens:

  • The episode centers the experience of the victims’ families and reminds listeners that these are preventable tragedies.
  • Eddie Glaude reflects on the “brokenness” of American society—a sadness beyond politics or policy.
    • “There’s something broken in us as a country. ... A culture that values things over human beings...” – Eddie Glaude ([42:52])

• Comparison to Other Shootings:

  • The Brown shooting discussed alongside a horrific Hanukkah attack in Sydney, highlighting a spate of violence and rising antisemitism ([45:23]).

• Reflection on Political and Cultural Responses:

  • Analysts lament the lack of bipartisan action despite overwhelming public support for gun safety laws.

  • Eddie and Ian Bassin encourage listeners to contemplate broader societal obligations and the need for a moral revival.

    • “The social contract in the United States has been shredded. We don’t know what our obligations are to each other.” – Eddie Glaude ([51:11])
    • “It may take distilling all that ugliness and holding it up there and putting in our faces for us all to see and recoil in horror from what we’ve done to stir us to the action...” – Ian Bassin ([53:52])

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Glenn Thrush, on FBI Communication:
  “Chaos would be a great way to put it... It just seems if they know what is going on right now, they’re not necessarily transmitting it.” ([35:37])

• Eddie Glaude, on Societal Malaise:
  “My heart is broken because I teach those babies. ... And two babies aren’t going back. Nine of them are struggling... And the country is going to send their prayers and we’re going to do this shit again, as we always do.” ([51:11]–[53:07])

• Mayor of Providence, on Community Healing:
  “This community will heal from this. We will move forward. But that doesn’t make light of, and I’m certainly not making light of the fear and anxiety that persists... The only way we’re going to move forward through it is one step at a time. And today’s one of those steps.” ([26:47])

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Key Timestamps

• 01:07 – Nicole introduces the shooting, profiles victims
• 02:33 – Chief Perez on investigation and FBI involvement
• 03:43 – Glenn Thrush on communications confusion
• 08:01 – Mayor’s press conference: police presence, community safety
• 10:37 – Governor on statewide response, mental health coordination
• 14:00 – Chief Perez on investigation progress, releasing video/images
• 18:44 – FBI’s Special Agent Docks: reward announced, call for tips
• 24:47 – Mayor on challenges restoring public confidence
• 28:47 – Chief Perez: details on weapon, rounds
• 31:39 – Ongoing, shifting investigation process
• 35:37 – Glenn Thrush on the “chaotic” law enforcement communication
• 40:55 – Nicole & Eddie spotlight the victims’ personal stories
• 42:52 – Eddie Glaude: societal commentary on violence
• 45:23 – Nicole shifts to Hanukkah attack in Sydney
• 51:11 – Eddie Glaude: “blue soaked hope” and urgent need for moral reckoning
• 53:52 – Ian Bassin and Eddie Glaude: reflections on political and cultural paralysis

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Tone and Takeaways

• Tone:
  Sober, urgent, empathetic, at times frustrated. Policymakers and analysts reflect the community’s grief, the national fatigue with gun violence, and skepticism regarding official reassurances.

• Main Takeaways:

  • The Brown University shooting is a flashpoint for wider discussions on gun violence, public safety, and broken trust between government and citizens.
  • Law enforcement efforts are intense but marred by communication challenges and public anxiety.
  • The community and commentators are calling for not just immediate justice, but a deeper societal reckoning with violence and division.

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This episode will be valuable listening for anyone seeking to understand the current state of crisis responding, the societal weight of recurring violence, and the ongoing tension between governmental messaging and public anxiety.

Transcript

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[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

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[Nicole (News Anchor)]

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[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

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[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Sort of.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Oh, sounds like a real nice surprise.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

So now I have to get him.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

A gift, but I haven't gotten my bonus yet.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

So if we can make it something really nice but also not break the.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

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[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

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[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

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[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Hi again, everyone. It's now five o'clock in New York. Any minute now, officials will provide an update on that devastating and tragic shooting at Brown University. It has left two people dead, nine others injured Saturday afternoon. The victims include Ella Cook, a sophomore described by her church's pastor as, quote, incredibly grounded and generous and faithful. Others say she's an exceptional pianist, studious and focused. She was the vice president of the College Republicans at Brown. The other victim is a student from Virginia and an immigrant from Uzbekistan, Muhammad Aziz Umar Zakab. His sister writes this in a GoFundMe page. Quote, he was incredibly kind and funny and smart. He had big dreams of becoming a neurosurgeon and helping people. And he continues to be my family's biggest role model in all aspects. The Brown University community is mourning these tragic losses even as a manhunt is once again underway for the suspect in the shooting. Questions are swirling about the federal response today. Law enforcement identified and detained a person of interest, only to release him hours later. FBI Director Kash Patel even touted the work of the FBI in finding that person. Providence's police chief said that it was the FBI that had followed through on a tip that had led them to that person.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

There was a tip that came in just like we were taking any other tips. And that one came in specifically identifying a person of interest, which was this individual. And so we, our detectives got on it just like they got on another one, this specific one. It was actually picked up by the FBI and they followed through with it and they ended up coming and locating this individual of interest. And at that point we did our thorough investigation, examined, ended up drafting some search warrants, came up with some evidence, but that evidence was examined and we didn't have enough obviously to be able to prosecute anybody. And so the person was released.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Questions and an ongoing manhunt for the suspect in the shooting at Brown University is where we begin the hour. New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush joins us with me at the table, Princeton University professor political analyst Eddie Glad is here. Glenn Thrush, can you just take us through what has been stated publicly about the tip that came through that was dealt with by the FBI, the evidence that the police chief there talked about, the search warrants and then the release of this person?

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Well, there is some inconsistency in terms of where the original tip derived from. Kash Patel in his tweet seems to suggest that they were acting on a trip tip from local law enforcement. The chief there, as you could tell, mentioned specifically that it was. He used the word we. It's a little bit difficult to discern where it came from, but in any event, this does seem to have been an FBI initiated enterprise. And in the end they just, they determined that this 24 year old who was named a former military person who apparently had some firearms at his house, had nothing to do with this whatsoever. But I don't think the specifics of this incident in terms of this investigating this person of interest are of interest. I think what is most important is that we're talking about it. There was no investigative needand this is from conversations with DOJ people and local law enforcement today. There's no investigative need to have put that information out in public. Investigators, federal and local are looking into all kinds of possible leads. And a lot of times going public with this sort of information can create far more complications, as we saw today, than they solve. Look, you know, the authorities have to go public with certain things when there's a manhunt. They have to give physical descriptions. My sense is that Cash Patel and the rest of the FBI leadership have been pushing Brown and Providence to get more video evidence out there. That strikes me and other law enforcement people I've spoken to as being an entirely legitimate aim. But why do you have to go out there and tweet this again? Obviously harkens to the extremely unfortunate incident in September where Patel jumped the gun again and claimed essentially that they had found Charlie Kirk's killer, when in fact that had not been the case. Do we know that that had an impact on the Utah investigation? It's hard to say, but in any event, it just creates a level of anxiety in the community and it demoralizes the law enforcement people who are out there having to chase down each one of these leads.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

I want to show our viewers what the Director of the FBI posted publicly, because, as with Donald Trump, we have one president, we have one director of the FBI, and this is what that one director of the FBI cash tweeted, touting the FBI's work and role in detaining a person of interest. An update on the FBI response. At Brown University, FBI Boston established a command post to intake, develop and analyze leads and run them to ground. We activated the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team to provide critical geolocation capabilities. As a result, early this morning, FBI Boston Safe Streets Task Force, with assistance from U.S. marshals and the Coventry, Rhode Island Police Department, detained a person of interest in a hotel room in Coventry, Rhode Island. Based off a lead by the Providence Police Department, we've deployed local and national resources to process and reconstruct the shooting scene, providing headquarters and lab elements on scene. We set up a digital media intake portal to ingest images and video from the public related to this incident. Does any of this help, and does any of this make anyone safer with the gunman at large? Glenn.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Nicole. This is the kind of information that a year ago, we would call over to the FBI press office and they would send us on background, typically, but sometimes on the record, a roster of the steps that they were taking investigatively. Okay. So, you know, none of that information is. Is particularly harmful or helpful. I think it's meant to give people a sense of what the FBI's up to. It gives the FBI an opportunity to tell the public that they're actually doing something and not just sitting on their hands. But the point is. That's Glenn.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Let me listen. Let me interrupt.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Reporters. It doesn't. The FBI director is saying it is not something that's normal.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Glenn, watch along with us. This is the Mayor of Providence, Rhode.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Island, Ted Doc, special agent in charge from the FBI. Going to start with a brief update and then just to let folks know about the work that we continue to do to reassure residents and Providence that they're safe in their community. And we are grateful for all of the assistance that we have continued to receive. As we announced last night, we would be providing enhanced police coverage throughout the Brown community, throughout the east side, and really throughout the city of Providence. And what residents and neighbors saw today was exactly that. There was specific enhanced coverage in Fox Point, Waylon Square, on Thayer street and on Hope street, which are the commercial districts in the area. And I want to express the city's profound gratitude to the following departments who provided mutual assistance and additional coverage today. First and foremost, the Rhode Island State Police have been excellent partners and I'm grateful for the governor of making sure that those resources are available to us here in Providence. But we were also assisted today by friends from neighboring communities here in Rhode island, which is a terrific way in which our colleagues from throughout Rhode island have been assisting. Today we had extra help from North Kingstown, North Providence, East Providence, Central Falls and Pawtucket. Many other communities have offered to help and we expect to take that help in the days to come. But through that mutual assistance of our neighboring communities, we were able to provide that additional coverage. Secondly, we were able to provide coverage to our schools today. We did have school here in Providence. I'm glad we had school today in Providence. We'll have school tomorrow in Providence. This is the last week of the semester and it's important for kids to be in school. And so we're encouraging parents to do what's right for their family. We understand that there are probably difficult conversations happening at the kitchen table right now, but if you're comfortable, you should send your kid to school. Providence Public schools are open and we have police coverage at drop off and pick up times to provide that extra sense of safety and security for our families. I spent the morning out at our schools too, in the neighborhood to be there for our parents and they certainly were glad to see an officer helping out. And so as we've said many times, but it's important to continue to say we're so grateful for the tireless effort of law enforcement not just to assist with the investigation, but to help all of us feel safe in our home at this time. I'm going to turn the mic over to our governor, Governor Dan McKee.

[Governor Dan McKee]

Thanks, Mayor. And just like all of us, we want to see the individual that pull the trigger on these young kids identified, apprehended and brought to justice. I can tell you from the state level, we're continuing to coordinate our state police and instructed the colonel to make sure that all the resources that are available are being employed through the direction of the of the mayor. But that partnership is incredibly important. I also know that the schools are not only being impacted on the higher education in Providence and also the K through 12, but I also have heard and have been in contact with our Commissioner of Higher Education, Shannon Gilkey, along with our Commissioner of K12 Green, to make sure that we are reassessing all safety issues in all our schools in the state of Rhode island. And more to come on that, the issues that have to do with mental health coordinating around the state through our higher ed and through our K through 12. I've assigned Director Rick leclerc to make sure that they're coordinating all of the. The social services, all the mental health help that's out there so that we can kind of also deliver that on a statewide basis. I was at family services Rhode island today on Hope street and just seeing what they're doing, and it's being duplicated all around the state of Rhode Island. So I think it's important that we do everything we can out of the governor's office to support what's happening at Brown, the community of Brown, Providence, but also knowing that this is impacting on a statewide basis. So we're deploying that effort to make that. Make the effort to let people know that we want to do everything we can so they can be safe and feel safe. And finally, we want to make sure that all Rhode Islanders know that everything that is physically possible is being done and partnering in with our federal, the FBI, our state law enforcement, and also the local law enforcement to bring an individual and identify and bring that person to justice. We also have been involved in communicating with the league of cities and towns today through Randy Rossi. They've sent out a message to deploy their vehicles, their police vehicles at the beginning of school day, at the end of the school day, all around the state of Rhode island to again show that we're serious about having people and the families feel safe and that everything that's being done to make sure that.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

That.

[Governor Dan McKee]

That happens on a statewide basis, because this has become a statewide issue that is being impacted families and people throughout the state of Rhode Island.

[Eddie Glad (Princeton University Professor, Political Analyst)]

Yeah.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Now we'll hear from Colonel Oscar Perez.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Thank you, Mayor. Thank you all for being here again. Here we are once again to provide you some of the highlights and the progress that the Providence police Department, along with several agencies, have gone together and stepped up to come up to this. I want to remind you that this is a very active investigation, very complex investigation, and it's the dedicated work of the men and women of the Providence Police Department, the detective division, the community response team, the special response team is all hands on deck. And on top of it all, you have the state police who's assisting us and every other federal partner that has been in this building for several hours. And I want to come in and applaud them for the work that they have done. And that includes the FBI, hsi, atf, the irs, the marshals and several agencies analysts that are here. So it's pretty active because we want to make sure, as the governor stated, as the mayor stated, to make sure that we identify this individual and bring him to justice. Our work that initiated today and continues to initiate for a while since it started. We're at the 49th hour and there's no one that wants to put this individual in handcuffs than us. So this has brought us to a new lead which I momentarily will probably provide you will be able to provide you with that's going to include video of this individual as well as photos of this individual. We're asking the public for assistance to be able to identify this individual. The photos I will be able to show you are coming from the area of Hope street near Benevolent and Menin. And those photos and those videos were retrieved around 2pm on Saturday the 13th. And we believe that's the same individual that we showed you from the previous video that we released. The public is encouraged to use the tip line which is pretty active. We have a tip line which is staffed with officers from the Providence police as well as analysts. And they're taking calls as we speak. And we want the public to use that information that they have that may be beneficial to this investigation. They need to call 401-272-3-1210 that was going to direct you in order to provide the tips that you are providing to us as well. You can access the FBI [e-mail] BrownUniversity shooting please. I'm going to ask you all to follow our channels to stay appraised of what's going on and to stay accurate. There's a lot of channels and a lot of stuff that's going out there that circulating the wrong info. And I told you when I first met you that there's appropriate info, there's accurate info and it's going to come from us. So I please impede with you that you access those type of channels. Again, we're asking for the public assistance and identifying this individual that we're about to show you. And we'll release this video on Twitter and on Twitter account momentarily. I'm going to turn to the video behind us. I'll be able to show you in two seconds. Officer Mangan, if you can just activate the videos up. So this is the first video that we're showing you. This is the individual walking. It's on the side of. On the sidewalk of benevolent. And this is prior prior to the incident. Here we go again with this video too. Mike, Again you see him walking. One to the third video. We want to this is some follow photos of this individual. And they will all be timestamped. The last photo. Thank you. So we'll be providing this as well. And I ask you all to please make sure you put them up. And then anybody in the public that has any info about this individual, we ask that you call a pipeline. And we'll also have the numbers in the website listed. Mayor.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Thank you, Colonel. The last speaker today will be special Agent in charge from the FBI, Ted Ducks.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

Thank you, Mayor, and good evening, everyone. My name is Ted Docks. I'm the Special Agent in charge of FBI Boston. We know there's a lot of public concern about the horrific mass shooting at Brown University on Saturday, and rightfully so. I can assure you that law enforcement team standing before you today has been working around the clock 247 to ensure justice is fully served. While we mourn the devastating loss of the victims and those who are critically injured, the FBI and its partners are dedicated to honoring their memory through a meticulous investigation. Tonight, as Colonel Perez stated, we are renewing our call for the public's assistance in seeking any and all information about the shooter. No amount of information is too small or irrelevant. We are also here to announce the FBI is now offering a reward of $50,000 for information that can lead to the identification, the arrest and the conviction of the individual responsible, who we believe to be armed and dangerous. We're asking everyone in Rhode island and beyond to review the new images of the suspect, share them on social media and come forward. If you have any information, you can contact the FBI at 1-800- call FBI or the tips provided by the police department at 401-272-3121 or you can also provide tips electronically and submit it to tips.FBI.gov we're also doubling down on our efforts to obtain images and video of the shooter. Those can be submitted [e-mail] for Brown University shooting. Our agents and analysts are fully embedded with our law enforcement partners, including Providence and Rhode Island State Police. We are tracking down leads, canvassing neighborhoods and developing intelligence. And right now, our evidence response teams remain on campus processing the scene, and folks from our lab from Quantico are documenting the trajectories of the bullets to reconstruct the scene. It's painstaking work and we are asking the public to be patient as we Continue to run down every lead so we can get victims, survivors and their families and all of you the answers you deserve. Thank you. Mayor, can you, can you tell our.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Chief officer to say in Spanish please for Spanish media?

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Yes.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Lhsi latf lirs.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Makam.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Locations.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

10. Go ahead. Hi, Mayor Dan, Jamie from NBC 10. I just want to ask a question. These videos and images were actually very good that you just showed. They were from the day before. And I'm just wondering why didn't we.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Release these a little bit earlier?

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Did you just get them today? And can you explain that's going to be a question.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Of course. And that's a great question, Dan. And I'll tell you that it takes times I've mentioned it before, that investigations are very complex. And when you're doing canvas in areas, when you're developing evidence, sometimes you get directed to another direction and then that's what makes you go back to certain areas and continue to investigate. Here we are at the 49th hour. But I gotta commend the dedication and professionalism of all of us that I mentioned earlier because it's that passion to bring someone to justice that led us to get this info that we got today to be able to provide to you.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

One second, sorry.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

With these images and videos, are you.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

All going to distribute them to the media?

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Can you distribute them?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Yes.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Mr. Attorney General, yesterday you made it clear we didn't have an image of this person's face. Now these images show we do have this person's face. Is this going to be key in.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Solving this case, which you seem very dedicated to doing?

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Yeah, look, I think, as I've said multiple times today, that these investigations.

[Governor Dan McKee]

Are.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Like threads that you pull on a garment and some of them you pull and the garment doesn't open up and other ones you pull and the garment comes undone. I think when you go out and get a, you know, a better image of the person's face, that can only help the public help us identify this person and confirm their that they're the right person when that time comes. You know, the prosecutors today have been working with the law enforcement agents and police officers to advance this, this investigation. And I would describe today's work as making steady progress to identifying the person that we saw in the video that was released yesterday. And the sooner we can identify that person, the sooner we can, I think, blow this case open. But that's, that's work that has to happen in the next 24 to 36 hours.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

Mayor, I believe that there was no.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Further threat to the community today.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

You mentioned.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

Mentioned yesterday that there was no additional evidence.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Can you just expand upon that?

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Yeah, it's the same. It's the same as yesterday, which is ever since 405 on Saturday there, which was the. When the first call came into Brown, there's been no new, credible, specific threat anywhere in the Providence community having anything.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Made prior to the shooting. So how can people feel safe with that information?

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

The way in which we are trying to reassure our residents is through a noted visible police presence throughout the community. It is going to be hard for my city to feel safe going forward. This has shaken us. That will be true tomorrow. I suspect that will be true the day after the general convicts someone. This is a process to restore a sense of safety, but we're going to take those step at a time. And the first step in what we're trying to provide today, and which we did well with the assistance of our neighbors, and we're grateful for it, is a noted visible police presence to provide some confidence for families that are taking their kids to school, people who have to get to work to work a shift. You know, I spent lunchtime today walking down Thayer street. And for our guests, Thayer street is the commercial district right adjacent to campus. And I talked to one of the women at Antonio's, which some of you know, is a pizza by the slice joint. And she said, you know, I didn't need. I didn't want to come to work today, but I needed to. I needed to work. I needed to take the shift, and that's a very real thing happening in our community right now. But she noticed, and she appreciated the fact that there were patrolmen walking up and down Thayer Street. It made her feel a little bit better. And when she comes to work tomorrow, I hope she feels a little bit better after that. That's where we are right now in terms of restoring a sense of safety to the community, and that's what we're going to continue to try to do.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Bill, go ahead. Two questions to that point. A lot of people scared right now. A lot of people confused right now in the city.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

You speak to them directly, summarizing what.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

You just said or any other thoughts from the heart.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Your take right now.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

Is Providence safe?

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Yeah, Providence remains a very safe city. And Providence receives the really the best law enforcement. You know, I believe in the country and today, especially at this moment, it's being augmented by great professionals of other Rhode Islanders, state police and others, and our federal partners. But my sense of the community right now is that this is starting to get very real and very personal. And I heard that today. I heard that last night at the Vigilant. You know, we're all two degrees of separation from one another. And now people are starting to share stories with one another of, oh, my neighbor was nearby and oh, my friend's kid was supposed to go to that review session but didn't. I'm starting to hear that stories and I think all the Rhode Islanders in the room are starting to hear those stories. I heard that story again today with one of our customers, is one of the teachers. And so it's starting to get very personal for our community, which is hard. And that's I think, where we are sort of emotionally in the process. But we're here from one another. That's the, that's the scary side. The upside is that this is a tight knit community that looks out for one another. The governor was there. All the officials who were up here with me tonight were with us at Lippett park last night. It was 10 degrees, it was loosely organized, and yet hundreds of people came out because they wanted to be with one another. They were hugging their neighbors, crying. They were offering each other support. So this community will heal from this. We will move forward. But that doesn't make light of, and I'm certainly not making light of the fear and anxiety that persists. But the only way we're going to move forward through it is one step at a time. And today's one of those steps.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Go ahead.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Do you have any idea what kind.

[Eddie Glad (Princeton University Professor, Political Analyst)]

Of firearm was used in this shooting? And do you know how many rounds were fired?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Do you have any details of that nature? It was several rounds and it was a small caliber, actually, 9 millimeter firearm was used and it was several rounds into it. And obviously, as we all know, the casualties and the injured people, it's just terrible. So, yes, two questions.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Who is the lead investigator on this now?

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

And secondly, what do you believe that.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

A person of interest was doing in that video and those pictures that you obtained?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Yeah, so the first question lead is obviously we're taking the lead, but we couldn't do this job without the assistance, as I mentioned, in collaboration of all the different agencies and municipalities. This is a team effort. This is, this is important to us. As the mayor stated, you know, it has chucked the city and a lot of people are concerned. So this is an effort to put handcuffs on somebody and it takes a whole team to do that.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

My second question is, do you, what do you think he was doing? Was he Staking out the area. Because this was the day before the shootings, correct?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Correct. And so that's it. So it was. It was a few hours before. And I'll tell you that at this point, that's all we have. So it was a few hours before what he was doing. We'll be able to find out further once we investigate.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

John DiPietro, life can you talk about is it unusual to change the direction of an investigation as it's going on?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

That's a great question, John. I think that, you know, all detectives throughout this nation and in the world understand that when you investigate in a case, it takes different paths. You know, you start somewhere, you start here, and all of a sudden something else pops off and you're going in a different direction. And that's what happens. It's complex. And at the end of the day, you have to investigate. You have to pull every rock, you have to look at every video, you have to examine evidence, you have to check ballistics. It just takes a lot of work. You have to interview witnesses, and sometimes that takes you to a whole different path. And as a police officer and a detective, you have to make sure that you don't get into the tunnel vision in order to be able to that right answer. So, yeah, they do change, I thought, every minute, couple days. Every minute counts. Every minute counts. But what doesn't stop is the, the dedication and professionalism of this department as well as our partners.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

Step Believe that any of the victims, whether the victims who died or the others, were targeted by the shooter or that he was just shooting random, indiscriminately.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

That's all part of the investigation, Steph.

[Governor Dan McKee]

Yeah.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

So we'll continue to investigate further than.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

You can also explain, the FBI today was searching in the bushes and kicking around the snow or like moving the snow on Waterman Street. We have known since Saturday that the potential suspect walked down Waterman street, was in the first video. Why would you be now looking in the bushes for something on Waterman street two days later after it?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

So I just answered, John, the same question of how investigations, they turn and lead you in a different direction. We might have used all our energies in the first few days to investigate something. And here we are now heading back to that same place to continue to investigate. And that's why you saw that, because the investigations change on a daily basis.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Of the 911 car emergency calls that came in when this first, the first 911 calls calls to come in were.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Those dispatched by Brown University police or Providence police.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

It was dispatched by the 911 Center. And yes, we responded immediately. Within minutes. You saw the Providence police cruiser pulling up? That's correct.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Patrick. Patrick, have you received any leads or.

[Eddie Glad (Princeton University Professor, Political Analyst)]

Indication on whether this was personally motivated.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Political or otherwise, any threats to Brown that they have turned over that would.

[Eddie Glad (Princeton University Professor, Political Analyst)]

Give us an indication why this might happen?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

It's a great question, and that's something that we're all asking ourselves and we'll continue to investigate to be able to.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Get that insult here.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Do you have reason to believe that this person is no longer in the community? Because can you continue to try to reassure the public that they are safe? But you also just said that something this person you believe is armed and dangerous.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

So how can both be true?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Well, yeah, yeah, right. And that's something that's unknown. But like they may have stated, I'll tell you that we have enhance information enforcement in that area. We have. Steph stated earlier, we have a lot of officers in the area. So in that sense, it's going to be safe. However, as well, I just want to remind the community that our priority in law enforcement and in the city is to keep our constituents safe, keep them informed and to keep them committed to understand that we're a professional, we're dedicated. We're going to put somebody in handcuffs and we're going to continue do this job. So I want to know that's something that we're continuing to investigate.

[Ted Docks (FBI Special Agent in Charge)]

On the.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Trajectory of where this guy went. From the videos that you saw, where is the last place that you would you have clear video of.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Of seeing him?

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Is it like, are you still getting.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Video from houses in that area? And you know, colonel Weaver, just real quick in terms of the state restrictions response of how much enforced control.

[Police Chief Oscar Perez]

We know about the enforced patrol in.

[Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island]

Providence, but are you putting throughout the state to keep the highways, you know, keep an eye on the highways? We have increased our patrols throughout the state and we will respond accordingly to any requests for additional assistance. This is a collaborative effort not only from our uniform division, but also our detective bureau is embedded here with Providence and our federal partners. And we will not stop until we find out who the suspect is and bring them to jail.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Home to the Rachel Maddow show.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Morning Joe. The briefing with Jen psaki and more.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Opinion and the world. Our name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress and the truth that you've relied on for decades. We'll continue to cover the day's News, Ask the tough questions and explain how.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

It impacts you, Ms. now, same mission, new name.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Learn more at Ms. Now we have been listening to a briefing from local and state elected officials and law enforcement officials in Providence, Rhode island, including the mayor, the governor, Police chief Oscar Perez getting the bulk of the questions there. Glenn Thrush, A real chaotic situation in terms of what they know and what they're communicating. Inconsistencies being called out. To the credit, great credit of the journalists in the room there. One journalist saying, quote, what evidence do you have that he left? How can you say he's armed and dangerous and Providence is safe? Your takeaways.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Chaos would be a great way to put it. I mean, it really reminds me of, I hate to keep hearkening back to this, the aftermath of the Charlie Kirk investigation. It just seems if they know what is going on right now, they're not necessarily transmitting it. I was particularly struck by a question, I don't know who asked it, about the FBI being observed going over a part of the campus in the snow. I think snow had subsequently fallen that they apparently hadn't investigated before. None of this, of course, is to criticize the investigators. This is an incredibly difficult situation. A bit of insight that I've gotten from federal agencies is that there wasn't as much on campus video at Brown as there have been in other places that they've done recent investigations. So that could be complicating things. But I feel for the city officials in Providence who are both trying to reassure people. But there is not a lot of information at the moment to provide that kind of reassurance. I will say to you, the release of this video, I just had a brief chance to look at it, which is not tremendously elucidating oftentimes in these investigations tends to shake things loose. So as he said, the, you know, the cliches about the first 48 on homicide investigations I think hold true for lower profile cases. But as more information gets out into the public and as investigators begin talking to people and establishing connections, and as we saw again in Utah, it was a family member that had picked up some indications that the shooter might have been activated that cracked that case. So really an excruciating moment for the city of Providence, for Brown University and for the investigators because frankly, just at this moment doesn't seem like they have an awful lot to tell the public.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

But let me just press you on the instructions to the community to go about. I mean, the message was Providence is safe. I mean, if you compare the early investigations into Luigi Mangione. There were photos released of him leaving New York. And so New York officials could say New York is safe, but he's considered armed and dangerous, or the early phases of other manhunts where they told people to shelter in place after the Boston Marathon bombing. I mean, where is the evidence to suggest that Providence is safe?

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that, and I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that Providence isn't safe. I think you're in a posture right now where what they're attempting to do is to keep some sense of normalcy. I guess, basically, Nicole, what they're predicating that on is that this happened how many hours ago, and there hasn't been a repetition of this. But you make a really, really valid point. It is an extraordinarily challenging situation. Do people stay at home? Look, you know, and again, I don't say this in any sort of a flippant way, but, you know, I grew up in New York City during a period of considerable violence. And there are risks individuals entail in any environment. But I think that's an entirely legitimate question. And it's, again, it is a very, very, very difficult situation for the city officials in Providence to deal with. And the only answer to this is to get this guy.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Glenn, I know you have more reporting to go do, and we've kept you for a big chunk of the hour, but let me just ask you one last question about the posture of the FBI. Notable that after the shooting in New York City, two National Guards people, this was the local special agent in charge, perhaps a less political and more competent sort of line officer face for the FBI. Was that intentional?

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Yeah, I think so. It's also the people who know exactly what's going on on the ground. And I think we have this situation where you have the. Of the FBI essentially acting as the flack, as the spokesperson for the agency and not letting the individuals who have direct access to the information to speak. Let me just conclude with one thing. None of this is normal. Okay? None of this is something that we have seen in the post Watergate era. I know we have to keep saying this, but it's true. We had, for all of its flaws, and there are conservative critics of the FBI who make claims, and they have the right to make those claims and get evidence for that. But what we're seeing here is a breakdown at times in the basic contract of trust that the American people have with these federal law enforcement agencies. And it's going to take a long time to rebuild it.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Glenn Thrush, thank you for that. That was sort of the depth and context I was grasping for. Thank you for all of your time this hour. Please come back if you learn anything new. Eddie I want to recenter the rest of this conversation on the victims this is the Washington Post reporting about one of the students who was murdered on Saturday. Mohamed Aziz Emersikov, 18, was one of two people killed at Brown University on Sunday. Mohammad Aziz Emerzakov's two sisters watched the news of the shooting at Brown University on Saturday afternoon from their home in Richmond, in the Richmond, Virginia suburb of Midlothian. With a mounting sense of dread. Muhammad wasn't responding to calls or texts, but as a double major in biochemistry and neuroscience, he had no reason to be in the economic study session where two people were killed and nine others wounded by a gunman. Then the sisters tracked down some of his friends through Instagram and learned the awful truth. He was in the classroom just to be with some of his buddies and typically he had been sitting up front by about 2 or 3 o' clock Sunday morning. A university official confirmed that Immersakov, an 18 year old freshman, had been killed. It just seemed so unfair because he tried so hard and he went through so much just to wind up like this, his sister said Sunday evening in the family's living room. Her brother had been a straight A student at Midlothian High School. He participated in Model United Nations, Quick bowl and debate, a young man in a hurry to make his mark. When he was a child, he had a condition that required brain surgery and left him facing years of recovery. His sister said the experience created an unshakable ambition to become a brain surgeon. He took every advanced placement class he could, earned a scholarship to Brown and worked at Wawa over the summer to make enough money to buy a laptop. He was murdered at Brown University on Saturday.

[Eddie Glad (Princeton University Professor, Political Analyst)]

Yeah, no, I think it's important for us to understand that students who are in the midst of finals who are just trying to get to the other side and go home for the winter break, that two of them won't go home to their mothers and fathers, they won't go home to their sisters or brothers, they can't fulfill their dreams. A life has been snuffed out, has been taken from us. And I think, Nicole, you and I have done this so many times we have to figure out how to widen the aperture a bit and understand this. Beyond the traditional debates around gun control, I think there's something broken in us as a country. And I heard Fred talk about the love set that engulfed him. But I'm trying to figure out what is at the heart of Americans reaching for guns to kill each other. And I think it has something to do with pervasive loneliness, isolation, feelings of hopelessness. It has something to do with a culture that values things over human beings, a culture that tells us that liberty, freedom matters more than our babies. Something is broken and we have to figure out how to get to that conversation. Because your heart is broken. But imagine the sister the moment, yeah.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

He'S gonna be a brain surgeon because he survived brain surgery himself. We'll be right back.

[Narrator/Announcer]

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the agenda, administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Project 47.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

On what was and should have been a night of celebration. The first night of Hanukkah, Jews across the world were left reeling again after another act of anti Semitic violence. 15 people were murdered, 42 people were wounded after a horrific shooting at a Hanukkah celebration at Bondi beach in Sydney, Australia. Among the victims, a 10 year old girl and an 87 year old survivor of the Holocaust who attended the event with his children and grandchildren. The massacre comes amid a global rise in anti Semitism. Authorities have classified the shooting as an act of terrorism. Two improvised explosive devices were found at the scene. Police have identified two suspects, one of whom was killed at the scene. One bystander, 42 year old father of two, Ahmed Al Ahmed, risked his life to disarm one of the shooters. Footage shows him rushing at the gunman and wrestling his long gun from his hands. Al Ahmed was shot in the shoulder. Local authorities credit him with preventing more death. I want to bring in Protect Democracy Executive director Ian Bassem. Eddie's still here, Ian. It's these triple tragedies this weekend of horrific loss and ongoing terror. If you're a Jewish person anywhere, if you're thinking about celebrating Hanukkah anywhere, you feel terror if you're a college kid, if you're a parent of a college kid, if you're a parent of a future college kid, you feel terror. If you live in Providence, Rhode island, you feel terror. If you're part of the large family of Rob Reiner, you Feel grief and sadness. If you're anyone grappling with addiction in your family, at any level, you're grappling with terror and fear. And then the added salt in the wound of all that pain is a president who's pouring salt and whatever other toxic brew he has in all of it. Your thoughts?

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah. I mean, obviously some of the dynamics you just alluded to, antisemitism, mental health issues, substance abuse issues, are unfortunately timeless tragedies and challenges. But it also does seem, and Eddie was alluding to this before, that there's something happening right now in terms of a rise in this chaos, in this inhumanity, that is a sign. I tend to think, in some ways, that we've almost been victims of our own success as a society in our lifetimes. If you think about what it has been like to live, be it in the United States or Australia in the latter half of the 20th century, there have been few periods in human history, anywhere in the world that have had the levels of security and prosperity that we've enjoyed through most of our lifetimes. And it hasn't been equal. If you look like me, you had greater privileges and greater security and greater prosperity. But even if you didn't look like me, if you were less privileged, still to live in this period that we've been fortunate enough to be alive has been one of the most secure and prosperous and upward inwardly moving periods in human history. And I worry that that led us collectively to lose touch with and forget what is required of us to build and maintain such a society, the civic virtues and work that is required. And we are, I fear, feeling the consequences of having let down our guards and gone soft on what is required of all, all of us, individually and collectively. And my great hope is that these periods of. And these horrible tragedies that we're seeing and the way that you both were appropriately reacting to the pain of that family in Virginia and us all feeling, that will lead us to the kind of moral awakening, the kind of revival that our country has seen in other previous moments in reaction to things like this. And by moral revival, I mean a period where Americans come together and decide that society must change and decide to take up the work that's required to do that. And we can only hope that out of this tragedy and out of this loss comes something like that that delivers us back to a society worthy of us in a way that the events of the last 24 hours surely are not.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Do you see any signs of it?

[Narrator/Announcer]

I do. I do. And, Nicole, you know this Because I've said for the last several weeks that I am feeling more hopeful. And it's hard to hold that over a period like the last 24 hours. I was reading recently a wonderful book called the Spirit of Hope, Byung Chul Han, the philosopher. And in it he talks about the difference between hope and optimism. And he says optimism is passive. It's a way of simply describing things as they are and choosing to look at the good and not look at the bad. But hope acknowledges the bad. It acknowledges the dangers that are out there, the suffering, the evil. But it insists that we can do better and rise above it. And I've really. That has resonated with me. And I think we are living in a moment where I am feeling more hope in the way that people are taking action in response to the challenges we're facing as a society. You've mentioned before the amount of people at an individual level, not an institutional level, who are exhibiting the kind of courage and bravery of going out into the streets to stand up for our rights and freedoms when they're being threatened by the most powerful man and institution in the world against doing so. There are signs that we could turn a corner as a result of these tragedies into a period of revival and sort of democratic reclaiming. And I fundamentally do hope that that is what we will see.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

I put you on the spot asking you a similar question and you reject optimism every time. But do you feel hopeful?

[Eddie Glad (Princeton University Professor, Political Analyst)]

Well, it's a blue soaked hope, just like Ian just laid out. You know, that I have to have faith in the capacity of human beings to be otherwise. But I'm not naive about the world. And you know, one of the things that we need to be clear on is that the social contract in the United States has been shredded. We don't know what our obligations are to each other. Only thing our faith is only in our tribe, only with the people that we care about. So much so that we can only be empathetic and concerned if it's our baby who got lost. Our heart's only broken if it's our child. That's how selfish we are at times. And so it seems to me, either we get clear on how we're going to live together, or we're not going to live together. This thing is not going to survive. And so I have the hope, as Ian just laid out, that we have the capacity to be otherwise. But that only is possible if we're honest enough to look the ugliness of who we are squarely in the face Donald Trump didn't break this place. Donald Trump is actually a consequence of how we've been living together for over 50 plus years. And so I'm just. My heart is broken because I teach those babies. I know how they walk around campus right now as they're trying to get to the other side of finals. And I know how excited they are to get back to their moms and their dads and their sisters and their brothers and their friends to tell them how school was, how the semester was. And two babies aren't going back. Nine of them are struggling. A couple of them are struggling right now for what? And the country is going to send their prayers and we're going to do this shit again, as we always do. So unless we honestly confront this. Nicole, the hope is there, but it's a blue soaked hope. My Lord. My Lord.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

Ian we lifted up Steve Kerr of the Golden State warriors and Lindsey Gottlieb, the head coach of USC women's basketball, because it's important that they did what they did. But their reaction should be the reaction of everybody. And you've got one of the two political parties that won't say anything about what is staring the rest of us in the face, what is so obvious. You've got the sort of shield of public opinion. 85% of Americans would like to see something done on gun safety. Do you think the cumulative sort of pain and loss and the fact that it could happen to anyone becomes another tide pushing on our politics heading into the midterms?

[Narrator/Announcer]

You know, again, I am hopeful that it will. And Eddie said this. You know, Donald Trump didn't create this. He is sort of the. A human incarnation of all of these tragic trends and all of the ugliness within our society and all the ways that we have failed each other and our children kind of coming together in one figure. You know, I read this morning the just horrific thing that he said about the murder of Rob and Michelle Reiner. And I was just sick reading this utterly despicable, inhumane statement on human life uttered by the person we've elevated to be the most powerful person in the world. And I was just trying to make some sense of it. And the only sense I could make of it is that it may take distilling all that ugliness and holding it up there and putting in our faces for us all to see and recoil in horror from what we've done to stir us to the action that Eddie, you know, appropriately said it is going to take from us that I looked at that statement and I thought who wants this and will it be that? It just takes the putting it in the faces of all of us like he did for us to wake up and lead that type of moral revival that we need. That is my hope that in this tragedy and in this ugliness, it forces us to do better.

[Nicole (News Anchor)]

I love you guys, Ian Bassett, and a lot. Thank you for, I guess, just bearing witness with me today. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you for letting us into your homes today. We're grateful.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win.

[Glenn Thrush (New York Times Reporter)]

Again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first Oakland trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now.