"Met with that same dismissive attitude"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Met with that same dismissive attitude"

Deadline: White House with Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Date: July 17, 2026

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Overview

This episode, hosted by Nicolle Wallace and Nicole Sganga, centers on the aftermath of the highly anticipated meeting between survivors of Jeffrey Epstein’s abuse and Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche. The discussion zeroes in on the survivors’ feelings of continued dismissal and lack of accountability from the highest levels at the Department of Justice. The episode also analyzes broader issues of government and military transparency, including controversial military conduct and policies under Pete Hegseth, the current Secretary of Defense.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The DOJ’s Meeting with Epstein Survivors

[01:02–16:49]

Context

• Survivors met with Acting AG Todd Blanche—largely regarded as a formality to secure Senator Thom Tillis' vote for Blanche's confirmation.
• Survivors Annie Farmer and Danny Bensky issued strong statements decrying the meeting’s superficial nature and Blanche’s perceived evasiveness.

Survivor Perspective: Jess Michaels

• Jess Michaels (Epstein survivor): “The short answer is disappointed, disturbed and undaunted because this seems par for the course.” — [04:26]
• Survivors hoped for real answers about ongoing investigations, accountability for data breaches (with survivors’ names released but perpetrators’ names redacted), and meaningful DOJ support.
• Blanche's demeanor described as “patronizing” and “condescending,” offering no admission of fault or meaningful investigative direction.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Annie Farmer’s statement: “[Blanche was] abrasive, condescending, and intentionally non-committal to survivors… a deliberate attempt to claim the Attorney General's office is powerless in this matter. By passing the buck once again, he's leaving survivors trapped in the same endless loop of searching for answers and receiving none.” — read at [01:55]
• Danny Bensky’s statement: “He danced around his wording, repeatedly interrupted us and could not commit to anything that would demonstrate good faith or begin to restore trust.” — summarized at [02:44]

DOJ's Contrasting Response

• DOJ spokesperson called the meeting “productive,” claiming Blanche answered questions and outlined the investigative process. [03:40]

Key Exchanges

• On DOJ's investigation: “He very clearly stated that there was nothing to see in the files. And if there was going to be anything investigated, we were going to have to do more legwork.” — Jess Michaels [06:13]
• On New Mexico investigation: Jess Michaels questioned Blanche’s cooperation with state AG, sharing a pointed reply from NM’s office: “I think our definitions of cooperating are very different. We got 30 documents that were redacted and news stories. That's not the files we're looking for and they know it.” [08:16]
• On institutional accountability: “How can anyone in this country ever feel safe that their case is going to be prosecuted properly, investigated properly, when all of this is happening with the world watching? …What happens when no one's looking?” — Jess Michaels [11:15]

Emotional Impact and Survivor Solidarity

• Survivors relied on mutual support before and after the intense meeting, drawing strength from each other and advocates. [12:40]
• Jess’s message to Senator Tillis: “That was not a meeting… Please do not confirm that man to be Attorney General of this country until we actually get to a place that is genuinely productive.” [14:14]
• Suggested reforms: Unredact files, assemble DOJ teams to actively pursue leads instead of just redacting information. [15:23]

2. Political & Systemic Barriers to Justice

[19:03–26:59]

DOJ Transparency & Political Allegiances

• Amanda Carpenter (Protect Democracy): Criticizes “fake transparency,” drawing parallels to past leaders’ failed attempts at real accountability.
• Blames the DOJ for ignoring meaningful investigation and being more concerned with political optics and protection for Trump.
• “It is stunning that the person who wants to be Attorney General found a way to spend nine hours with Ghislaine Maxwell and had to wait until a senator held his vote hostage for confirmation to get those victims nine minutes with the guy who is supposedly leading investigation.” — Amanda Carpenter [20:06]

Senate’s Role

• Discussion of Senators Tillis and Cornyn’s influence; their votes could block Blanche’s confirmation.
• bipartisan Congressional support for releasing Epstein files contrasted with reluctance to hold officials accountable.

Larger Political Patterns

• Republicans who try to exercise justice or oversight on Trump frequently lose their political careers (Massey, Cheney, Kinzinger).
• “All the men who sort of sacrifice their integrity in service of Donald Trump end up made fools of. It just doesn't always happen within 24 hours.” — Nicole Sganga [26:32]

3. Military Leadership, Conduct, and "War on Low T"

[30:51–47:26]

Blue Angels Beach Incident

• The Navy’s Blue Angels fly dangerously low over a crowded beach, causing panic and sending objects (umbrellas, etc.) airborne.
• Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth and Secretary of the Navy respond with bravado, dismissing any concerns, refusing investigation.
• Mark Hertling (Retired Lt. Gen.): “This obviously violated all of those regulations and standards… When you're flying that kind of high-performance aircraft, a bird strike could kill a lot of people. And it's just unnecessary and, in my view as a military professional, violating standards and unprofessional.” [33:27]
• Margaret Donovan (Former Army JAG): Highlights danger of removing commanders’ investigation authority, calling out top-down interference and disregard for military justice norms. [36:33], [38:55]

Pete Hegseth’s “War on Low T” Policy

• Secretary Hegseth pushes for widespread testosterone supplementation across the military, despite ongoing government arguments in court about inability to “medically manage hormonal treatments” (used as a rationale for anti-trans policies).
• Ethical and legal concerns raised, including the fairness of performance-enhancing drugs, medical risks, and hypocrisy with readiness policies.
• Mark Hertling: “All three of the endocrinologists told me that they treat those with low testosterone, and it's a very difficult thing to do…So when you're talking, as Secretary Hexseth did, about treating everyone 30 and above in the US military… it may result in some really bad diagnosis. So to say it's a bad idea is an understatement.” [44:39]

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Notable Quotes by Segment

Dismissiveness of AG Todd Blanche

• “After meeting with Todd Blanche, I feel even more confident in urging senators to vote against his confirmation as the United States Attorney General…By passing the buck once again, he's leaving survivors trapped in the same endless loop of searching for answers and receiving none.” — Annie Farmer [01:55]

On False Transparency

• “Todd Blanche thinks that he can get away with this form of fake transparency… the person who wants to be Attorney general found a way to spend nine hours with Ghislaine Maxwell and had to wait until a senator held his vote hostage for confirmation to get those victims nine minutes.” — Amanda Carpenter [20:06]

Military Overreach and Command Erosion

• “It is very much in a commander's interest to want this investigated…But they've basically been prevented from doing that because of the secretary's actions.” — Margaret Donovan [36:33]

Testosterone Policy Critique

• “If someone comes in exhibiting…low T, they can be treated. But when you're talking about treating everyone 30 and above in the US military… it may result in some really bad diagnosis. So to say it's a bad idea is an understatement.” — Mark Hertling [44:39]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:02] – Nicole Sganga intro: Context for the survivors’ meeting with Blanche.
• [04:26] – Jess Michaels: Disappointment with the DOJ meeting.
• [06:13] – Blanche’s patronizing demeanor and lack of investigative action.
• [08:16] – Jess Michaels reads NM Attorney General’s office statement on lack of cooperation.
• [11:15] – Jess: Failure of the system for current and future victims.
• [14:14] – Jess’s direct appeal to Senator Tillis.
• [15:23] – Jess: DOJ should actively investigate, not just redact.
• [19:03] – Amanda Carpenter: On DOJ’s performative transparency.
• [24:26] – Amanda Carpenter: Bipartisan Congressional support for file release.
• [33:27] – Gen. Mark Hertling: On the Blue Angels’ incident as breach of standards.
• [36:33] – Margaret Donovan: Erosion of commander authority in the military.
• [41:26] – Mark Hertling: Medical critique of mass testosterone supplementation in the military.

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Tone & Language

• Honest, urgent, occasionally incredulous.
• Survivor voices are clear, resolute, and demand accountability.
• Policy and military analysis is frank, direct, and deeply concerned about erosion of standards and transparency.

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Conclusion

The episode provides a deep dive into the lived experience of survivors of the Epstein case as they seek justice and accountability from a DOJ that appears more concerned with political optics than victims’ needs. Broadly, the episode explores a pattern of dismissiveness within top institutions—political and military—where performative gestures replace substantive action, and those demanding real accountability are repeatedly sidelined.

This is a crucial listen for understanding the current state of justice, institutional accountability, and the climate facing survivors and advocates in today's America.

Transcript

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[Nicole Sganga]

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[Jess Michaels]

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[Adopt Us Kids Representative]

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[Eugene Daniels]

Would you say that Mr. Blanche exhibits a rather dismissive attitude toward all of you and the Epstein crimes?

[Jess Michaels]

1000% yes.

[Nicole Sganga]

Hi again everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the east. After months and months of waiting now to meet with the Department of Justice after its complete mishandling of the release of the Epstein files, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse finally had the chance to sit down with Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche yesterday. But in that highly anticipated and long awaited meeting, the survivors say they were met with the same dismissive attitude that Epstein survivor and friend of this program Danny Bensky testified to yesterday at Todd Blanche's confirmation hearing. For Todd Blanche, who's seeking to take on the role of Attorney General of the United States permanently, the meeting was just a check the box exercise, a necessary step that he was told he needed to take to gain the vote of a Republican senator named Thom Tillis. Survivors say the meeting was just that. Blanche checking Vitalis box to secure his job promotion, leaving them more hardened in their opposition to him. In a statement provided to Ms. Now, Epstein survivor Annie Farmer says this quote, after meeting with Todd Blanche, I feel even more confident in urging senators to vote against his confirmation as the United States Attorney General. I found him abrasive, condescending and intentionally non committal to survivors, a marked contrast to his public testimony during his confirmation hearing. While quick to point out the failures of previous administrations, he refused to take accountability for mistakes made under his own leadership. His evasiveness felt like a deliberate attempt to claim the Attorney General's office is powerless in this matter. By passing the buck once again, he's leaving survivors trapped in the same endless loop of searching for answers and receiving none. Other survivors who were in the room for the meeting with Todd Blanche were left with the same impression with Danny Bensky posting this in a statement online, quote, he danced around his wording, repeatedly interrupted us and could not commit to anything that would demonstrate good faith or begin to restore trust. He did not adequately account for the release of materials that exposed survivors, identifying information and images. And he offered no credible plan to investigate and pursue accountability beyond Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And as for her message to the GOP senator who conditioned his yes vote to advance Todd Blanche's Attorney General nomination on this meeting with survivors, she addressed that by writing this quote, I hope Senator Tillis will recognize that this meeting was insufficient. Todd Blanche is not qualified to serve as Attorney General. I urge Senator Tillis and every member of the Senate to vote no on his confirmation. A spokesperson for DOJ characterized the meeting this way, quote, productive to our colleagues at cnbc claiming that Todd Blanch answered questions and walked through what is needed for investigations to proceed. That is where we start the hour with one of the survivors who met with Todd Blanche yesterday, who we have been fortunate enough to talk to on this program and, and get to know her as she bravely calls for accountability from the federal government. Jess Michaels is back. Also joining us, writer and editor for Protect Democracy, Amanda Carpenter is back with us as well and the host of the Fast Politics podcast, contributing writer for the New York Times, Molly Jong Fast is here as well. Jess, how are you?

[Jess Michaels]

The short answer is disappointed, disturbed and undaunted because this seems par for the course. The way we were treated yesterday was no different than any other time. We were hoping it would be something different and it was not.

[Nicole Sganga]

What did you hope you would hear from Todd Blanche?

[Jess Michaels]

Well, obviously let's start with what Senator Tillis. We would imagine that Senator Tillis did not just want a face to face. Like just at least show your face to these survivors and then I'll give you my vote. I'm sure, I'm sure that that is not what the Senator meant. What we hoped and what we think Senator Tillis also would have wanted for us is that we would have gotten answers on why there are no investigations happening with these files and what happened with the egregious release of victims names, identifying information while perpetrators names were redacted. And so we hoped for some response that would have said I hear you. I agree. I take responsibility for what happened. 1% of it. His words shouldn't have mattered because it's still human beings that were affected. I mean I can't even tell you how many times and how many different ways it was explained to Todd Blanche, in that meeting, the harm that was caused and it was not acknowledged,

[Nicole Sganga]

what did he. What was his demeanor like?

[Jess Michaels]

I would call it patronizing. It felt very much like the attempt to appear empathetic. And it came off as condescending and patronizing. It did not come off as I am now applying to be the Attorney General of the United States. You are victims of a crime, and I can assure you we would never want harm like this to happen to anyone. And we're on top of it. No, that's not what happened. He very clearly stated that there was nothing to see in the files. And if there was going to be anything investigated, we were going to have to do more legwork. We're going to have to go back to the FBI, share our stories again. And I said, okay, but what about.

[Eugene Daniels]

Should.

[Jess Michaels]

What if they're actually in the files? Do we just bring the files and point them out to FBI agents? And he basically said, yes, just tell us what files we should be looking at because there are no active investigative leads, investigations going on right now except for New Mexico.

[Nicole Sganga]

What did he say? Or was he asked to explain his meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell in the context of the new reporting in the New York Times that he was participating in a meeting about public relations, not fact finding?

[Jess Michaels]

He did not say that. He did say that the reason he went to go see Ghislaine Maxwell was that supposedly many victims had said that she had not given any testimony and that she should be able to speak. I don't know who those victims would be, but that was his reasoning for going to see her.

[Nicole Sganga]

Did he offer any explanation for why Mr. Lutnick, who's lied about his interactions with Jeffrey Epstein, was still in the Cabinet?

[Jess Michaels]

He did not. And we didn't go into that subject of specific people. We really were talk. We went there initially at half an hour. We actually got an hour and a half. And it was an extremely tense and emotional meeting. And we all had so many questions. And even though we came in with our lists, it was hard to feel heard by him. So we didn't even get through the questions that we wanted to try to get through. One of the things I did ask him, and I think this is extremely important, Nicole and I actually reached out to the New Mexico Attorney General's office because I said to him, well, but there is a criminal investigation going on, and as far as we know, your office is not cooperating with them. And both he and his expert in child trafficking and human trafficking said, oh, we're Cooperating. So I got a statement from them, if you don't mind. If I could read that, please. The statement from New Mexico's Attorney General's office was. I think our definitions of cooperating are very different. We got 30 documents that were redacted and news stories. That's not the files we're looking for and they know it. It's been more than 150 days since we've seen. Since we've asked for the unredacted Epstein files. We've also asked for their assistance in lifting protective orders, and they said unlikely.

[Nicole Sganga]

What is your sense of whether he had any shame for saying the day before the meeting that he would not meet with all of you? But when Mr. Tillis vote became contingent on having the meeting, he was there. Did he say, Well, I just said that because I didn't want to get tripped up, but I'm actually happy. Like, did he answer for saying he didn't want to meet with you guys 24 hours earlier?

[Nick Confessori]

No.

[Jess Michaels]

There. That's actually a really good word that you brought up, Nicole. Remorse. There was no remorse for any of the damage that was done. There was no remorse when we brought up. We've been trying to talk to you for eight months, nine months to tell you there are important files that should be looked at. There are plenty of investigative leads. There was no remorse in. Even when Annie said, hey, I know that my sister's report is missing part of the pages. Will you do an investigation? He said, no, there was not going to be any further investigations and we had to go through proper channels. Now we had to go back to the FBI or we could talk to this other specialist. But basically he wanted us to start all over again.

[Nicole Sganga]

What does it make you feel about victims of child sex trafficking at the hands of powerful men today,

[Jess Michaels]

As an advocate, this is one of the things that is extremely frustrating because getting any kind of accountability for any kind of sexual harm is already excruciatingly difficult. And you would think with 6 million files, by the way, he kept correcting us and saying 3 million files. He said there are only 3 million files, not 6 million files. With that volume of evidence, we feel there's. If you can't find an investigative lead in that, then there's a problem with competence or there's decisions being made. And so it's very discouraging because right now this man wants to be the Attorney General of the United States and he doesn't know what to do with 6 million files. And how can anyone in this country Ever feel safe that their case is going to be prosecuted properly, investigated properly, when all of this is happening with the world watching? Nicole, I mean, what happens when no one's looking?

[Nicole Sganga]

Yeah. And what happens when. When a group of victims don't find one another? Because don't find one another. Right, right. What was it like amid all of you who have found each other through this process, to be in the room sort of before, during and after? Can you take us through that journey?

[Jess Michaels]

Yeah, it was.

[Nicole Sganga]

It was interesting.

[Jess Michaels]

You know, we're all different. We're all our own individual human beings. And some people get chatty and some people need quiet, like when we're in. When we're in the lift to get there, you know, it was. Can I just say one thing, too, about sky robbers and Amanda robbers, What amazing humans they are. Because we all get there, and one of the things that they are so good at is really centering all of us and reminding us of how far we've actually come. And that keeps us so united as a group, because it can be very discouraging at times. And having their very grounded wisdom among us and fighting alongside and ready to lead is making all the difference in the world for us. Uh, so we had a. We had a huddle before we went in, and. And we said, you know, this is good.

[Margaret Donovan]

We.

[Jess Michaels]

We are standing in front of the doj, and we are about to walk into the doj. The fact that this man has been evading us for months and his hand was forced and he had to meet with us, we knew it was likely gonna be. There's gonna be no winning here, but to get in the door because of public pressure. You know, it's not just on us. It's the American people that are pushing this forward for us. Like, nobody would care if the public didn't care.

[Nicole Sganga]

What is your message to Thom Tillis today?

[Jess Michaels]

Senator Tillis, that was not a meeting. And I am going to guess that you care about this issue very much. I'm going to guess that that's why when you sat across from Danny Bensky and listened to her testimony, you knew that it was time to demand that meeting for us. And that was, as Danny said, a moment of humanity in the room. So I can only imagine that you are just as disappointed as we are, because I'm sure you asked for that meeting because you want facts, too. So please do not confirm that man to be Attorney General of this country until we actually get to a place that is genuinely productive.

[Nicole Sganga]

What is your hope? If you could all take over the department for a day or if someone benevolent and interested in transparency could take it over, what would they, what should they do? What would they do?

[Jess Michaels]

They should unredact all of those files. There are plenty of leads to investigate right now. What should be happening at the Department of Justice is there should be a team of prosecutors combing through those files. Do you know what else we learned? We learned that when they did the review for the redactions, even though there were lawyers, even though it was 800 people, no one was looking at the files for leads. They were purely looking at them for redactions. That sounds crazy to me. Absolutely absurd that if you're sitting there and you're reading through those files that you weren't looking for leads and you were attorneys working for the Department of Justice.

[Adopt Us Kids Representative]

That's crazy.

[Nicole Sganga]

Having run on this in part. And it's also suggested they were looking for mentions of Donald Trump's name.

[Jess Michaels]

Yes.

[Nicole Sganga]

Did that come up at all in your meeting with Todd Blanche?

[Jess Michaels]

Not this meeting, maybe the next one.

[Nicole Sganga]

Jess, I know that talking about it is double edged for you and that for all of you guys, it takes a lot of to share this. And I want to thank you for spending this much time with us after a meeting like this and for continuing to keep us connected with the efforts of you and your survivor sisters for transparency. We appreciate you so much.

[Jess Michaels]

Thank you.

[Nicole Sganga]

Thank you so much. I want to bring Amanda and Molly into the conversation. I'm going to sneak in a break before I do that. Also ahead for us, wild pictures of a really, really, really low like Tom Cruise without all the Tom Cruiseness of it. Flyover of the Navy's Blue Angels. It sent tents and umbrellas and beach chairs and sand violently airborne. People can get killed when those things become projectiles. But they went flying. And instead of apologizing for all that chaos, for something that could have ended in absolute disaster, there's something very different coming out of Pete Hegseth. We'll bring you that story later in the hour as well. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Julian Barnes]

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[Margaret Donovan]

Courage.

[Jess Michaels]

I learned it from my adoptive mom.

[Margaret Donovan]

Hold my hand.

[Adopt Us Kids Representative]

You hold my hand. Learn about adopting a team from foster [e-mail] you can't imagine the reward brought to you by Adopt Us Kids, the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.

[Nicole Sganga]

For me, being a part of this

[Mark Hertling]

place has always been about the people, not about the politics.

[Julian Barnes]

From the field to the studio, Jacob is finding the heart of the story. Connect with Jacob soboroff weekends at 10:00am Eastern on Ms. Now,

[Mark Hertling]

how many pages of the so called Epstein files has the department released?

[Nicole Sganga]

Nearly 3 million.

[Mark Hertling]

How many more pages are there that are responsive?

[Nicole Sganga]

We're not aware of any.

[Mark Hertling]

How about that in the department's opinion, are not responsive.

[Nicole Sganga]

Well, from what we collected, about 3 million that were just nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein or the case at all.

[Mark Hertling]

Okay, why don't you just release everything, just let it rip?

[Nicole Sganga]

Good question. Never thought I'd say that about a suggestion from Senator Kennedy. But I wonder, Amanda, why continue to take on the political baggage of holding back? What is your theory?

[Amanda Carpenter]

It appears to me that Todd Blanche thinks that he can get away with this form of fake transparency that Pam Bondi attempted to pull off when she promised all the activists were delivering the X Files and they were smart enough to figure out there was no there there as is everybody else can figure out here. Because you know, as the Epstein victims have been pointing out, you are not looking at the stories we told and doing any kind of follow up to figure out how this went on for so long, why it was covered up and who else may have been involved. I mean, it is stunning that the person who wants to be Attorney general found a way to spend nine hours with Ghislaine Maxwell and had to wait until a senator held his vote hostage for confirmation to get those victims. Nine minutes with the guy who is supposedly leading investigation, but he is not. He is the point person on the COVID up and running the political damage program to help Donald Trump. Like we all can see that Thom Tillis set up a very basic test. Can you show these victims like basic respect, hear them out, sort of demonstrate that maybe you have a shred of political independence from Trump and they're all coming out of that meeting and Saying, no, he failed that test, Thom Tillis. And also, by the way, you had a letter for more than 1,000 members, people who worked for the Department of Justice justice, saying that Todd Blanch is not going to be politically independent at all from the president. So I don't know how much more evidence Tillis needs. He's failed the test that he has set out for the vote. So I don't know how he gets to. Yes, but man, I just. You have to commend the victims for going this far. I mean, the way they have been smeared and attacked and harassed throughout this process and to get that meeting. But then also, they only got that meeting because Thom Tillis said they should get it shows, you know, what a perilous situation that this remains to be.

[Nicole Sganga]

You know, Molly, we just had some polling up of Trump's approval on the economy. It's in the low 30s. His approval on his handling of the Epstein files is half that. So if the economy is a flashing red political light, the handling of the Epstein files brings about more intense feelings inside the MAGA coalition and his approval rating is lower. And if in the UK princes have lost their crowns, if at Goldman Sachs, lawyers have lost their jobs, why in America does the guy who handles the botched release of the files get promoted from Acting AG and Deputy AG to AG unless Trump is in on it with him?

[Eugene Daniels]

Well, that I can't speak to, but they're certainly. They behave in a way that is so suspicious. And I wanna pull back and talk about New Mexico for a minute, which Jess Michaels was talking about, which is right now, at this moment, the Attorney General from New Mexico, Raul Torres, has been trying to get the DOJ to give him the unredacted files. And he said, he told, I mean, this reporting from Axios, he told Axios that the DOJ was hindering and withholding unredacted Epstein files. So, like this is happening to the victims, but it's also happening to the state of New Mexico. And I think it's really important to see here that not only is this DOJ not interested, interested in helping the victims, but they're not interested in helping other states solve what is obviously the largest sex trafficking or probably case hopefully in American history. And we are. And you just see a total disinterest in helping not either the victims or the states. And that to me is beyond problematic. The other thing I just want to say quickly is that you have two members, two Republican senators, right, Tillis and Cornyn, who could really sink this nomination. And they have more power at this moment than they probably will in the rest of their careers. So they could get more justice or some sort of justice. They could get these unredacted files if they pushed it. And so I do think they have more power. And again, they're not acting like that. Untilis is saying he wants to get to. Yes, but they really do have more power than they think,

[Nicole Sganga]

Amanda, on the sort of miracle that is this one shining bright spot of bipartisan efforts for justice for the victims, the Massey role in the Oversight Committee. He's another person who paid with his job in the same way Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger paid with their jobs for participating in the January 6th select committee investigation. Your thoughts on how Washington still doesn't reflect not just the public, but the MAGA voter.

[Amanda Carpenter]

Yeah, Well, I mean, it is interesting, stunning how any Republicans who have tried to exercise any kind of accountability, oversight over the president have become targets and essentially lost their careers over it. I mean, that is what has happened. And maybe Thom Tillis and Cornyn will do something. I think Molly makes a great point. I, you know, I am always disappointed to see Republicans capitulate, but they are making demands and Todd Blanche is not meeting the standard. So again, I don't know how Tillis actually gets to yes on this. It's not, I'm not saying it's not possible, but, you know, it is important. And then, you know, if you game this out, people will say, well, he could just stay as acting attorney general. Well, maybe. But it would be an important symbol for the Senate not to confirm this person, not only because of this, but also because he was the guy that wrote the memo that authorized the slush fund for the January six rioters and wanted to give Donald Trump a free pass on audits from the IRS for any accountability there and is also behind the political put his stamp on the politicized prosecutions of people like James Comey and Don Lemon and the rest. So there's a list of reasons aside from this, but this is stunning because especially there was overwhelming bipartisan support for release of the Epstein files passed both houses of Congress, House and Senate, with Republican support. So I do not see how if you voted for release of the Epstein files, how you vote to confirm Todd Blanche.

[Nicole Sganga]

Yeah. Molly, you take the confirmation hearings this week. Jay Clayton refusing to say that Joe Biden won. And then our intrepid journalist, Vaughn Hillier getting John Solomon to say, I'm going to quote him, quote, no votes were flipped in 2022, 2020 or 20, 24. I mean, all the men who sort of sacrifice their integrity in service of Donald Trump end up made fools of. It just doesn't always happen within 24 hours.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah, I mean, look, that's the larger lesson here, is that eventually, you know, this administration, they lose in court, and they lose in court for a reason, because ultimately none of this is legal, is at best made up. And even what I thought was so interesting about Trump's speech last night was that he set up a. That he was gonna say this and that. But in the end, what he really did was sort of try to misrepresent the facts. He said that there were no again. But in the end, all of these facts are still. There were no votes changed. Russia did in fact, try to, you know, affect votes, try to, you know, do propaganda, all the stuff we know. And so the truth is, if he wants to make elections safer, he could spend money on election integrity. He could rehire the group of nonpartisan government workers he just fired. I mean, these are, you know, there are. It just. It's so. It's just so disappointing to be at this moment and to see Donald Trump still, you know, at war with the 20 election. It's just. And to see these women just desperate for transparency, some kind of transparency, and it's just such a disappointing moment in American life.

[Nicole Sganga]

Amanda Carpenter, Molly Dung Fast, thank you both for joining me today on all of this. When we come back, chaos on a Florida beach as the Navy's Blue Angels fly way below standard permitted altitudes, sending beach umbrella flying and clouds of sand into the air. The absolutely bananas response from Pete Hegseth is our next story. Here's what happened when one journalist reported on DEI programs.

[Nick Confessori]

I decided to just focus on the University of Michigan. I obtained internal documents that showed that the school had spent about a quarter of a billion dollars on DEI programs. I spent two weeks in Ann Arbor talking to everybody. I could find the unintended consequences of these programs. They had sort of left everybody dissatisfied, and this expensive machinery the school had built just imploded. If you're a journalist, you are not on anyone's team. All you're trying to do is figure out as many of the facts as you can gather. The facts are going to guide you to where the story lands. You're not taking sides. I'm Nick Confessori. I'm an investigations reporter for the New York Times.

[Nicole Sganga]

Journalists like Nick follow the facts wherever they lead. They go where news breaks, get answers firsthand, and publish what they find. That's fact based reporting. Seek it out if you don't already.

[Margaret Donovan]

Courage.

[Jess Michaels]

I learned it from my adoptive mom.

[Margaret Donovan]

Hold my hand.

[Adopt Us Kids Representative]

You hold my hand. Learn about adopting a teen from foster [e-mail] you can't imagine the reward brought to you by Adopt Us Kids, the U.S. department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council.

[Nicole Sganga]

Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I reported on it.

[Jess Michaels]

And now we're friends and colleagues and

[Eugene Daniels]

on our podcast Clock it, we are

[Jess Michaels]

positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

[Nicole Sganga]

Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it too.

[Julian Barnes]

Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.

[Nicole Sganga]

So that was a scene that became terrifying. According to witnesses in Florida on Wednesday, it happened when the Navy's Blue Angels flew so low over a crowded beach in Pensacola that kids covered their ears and tents and chairs went flying. It is the sort of incident you'd expect people to apologize for, especially for the Blue Angels, who most people love, and especially from an institution, the military, known around the world for its rigorous standards and training and extensive operational experience. But now that the American military is being led by Pete Hegseth, this is what happened instead. A post to X from Pete Hegseth promising, quote, the flyovers will continue until morale improves, end quote. It was followed by a post from the acting Secretary of the Navy, who wrote, quote, flight debrief complete. No reprimands, no firings, no problem. That's the sound of freedom. Hoo ya. To clarify, this is what your military leaders are focusing on, not admitting mistakes, which is terrifying for a country that's currently at war, not doing an after action that says, yeah, the Blue Angels are too special to actually endanger children on a beach in Florida. Now, in addition to ensuring service members have high testosterone, that's the focus, CENTCOM has announced its sixth consecutive night of strikes on Iran, with Iran saying that American strikes had hit civilian infrastructure, including bridges, a train station and an airport, all targets that could, if we had further information to suggest this, potentially make up war crimes. I want to bring in military analyst retired Lt. Gen. Mark Kirtling. He served as the commanding general of the US army in Europe. Also joining us, Margaret Donovan. She was captain in the JAG Corps and is the former assistant U.S. attorney for the District of Connecticut. She's now a visiting lecturer at Yale. General Hartling, at least two people have been killed by flying umbrellas since 2022. I love the Blue Angels. They do a show in San Francisco every year about the marina. It's amazing. And I can't imagine anyone in the Blue Angels wants to be responsible for creating circumstances that could lead to an umbrella flying and impaling a child or any innocent bystander. But those are the conditions that are being put in motion. And what's more alarming than the flyover to me is the, you know, giddy up. More, more, more. What's going on at the military?

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah, I'm not sure, Nicole, but in seeing this flight and seeing the film of was unprofessional and lacking in standards from my opinion. You know, when the Blue Angels do their magnificent shows, they have to abide by FAA regulations. They get some exceptions to those FAA regulations where they can fly below 500ft. But they also have something called a close in show line where they have to avoid any kind of civilians who are watching the shows. This obviously violated all of those regulations and standards. And you know, the, the thing that you pointed out in terms of umbrel is one thing that could hurt someone, but even such things as the decibel levels of those jets just a couple hundred feet above those beachgoers, but also the fact that when you're flying that kind of high performance aircraft, a bird strike that comes out of the blue or some kind of malfunction in the aircraft, which happens sometimes at aerial demonstrations, could kill a lot of people. And it's just unnecessary and in my view as a military professional violating on standards and unprofessional. I can't understand how the acting Secretary of the Navy in that tweet and the Secretary of Defense could say, hey, this is the sound of freedom, or you know, everybody should be happy about this. It's just ridiculous. But it goes in line. By the way, Nicole, you're not talking about the Apache helicopters that did the same thing along a beach line in South Carolina from the South Carolina National Guard and an Apache helicopter that hovered over the terrace of Kid Rock's house in California. So what we're seeing is a Secretary of Defense who fought hard for a couple of war criminals back when he was a Fox News analyst extending these kind of poor standards to the entire military. And if, if you ask me, it is having an effect on the morale of the military of people who understand that military members execute controlled chaos. They are just allowing chaos across the board in terms of these violations.

[Nicole Sganga]

When you look at the leadership sending the message that this conduct is acceptable, Margaret, you Think about how most people are raising their kids not to get in the car with a drunk driver. This is like the parents saying, no, here, get in, have another. Give the driver this beer. For me, this is like the authority figure saying, do the dangerous thing without any regard for the professionalism. The lifelong resume and record that the men and women of the military will have long after Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump are in the dustbin of history. And the consequences for any innocent civilians who are injured or killed.

[Margaret Donovan]

Yeah, I mean, the significance for me goes even beyond that. So just to contextualize this a little bit, in the military, a commander of a unit, for example, the squadron commander, or the commander of the Blue Angels, they have actual military justice authority. So they have inherent authority to investigate misconduct, deviation from standards, or criminal offenses. That's different than the civilian world. Your boss can't bring criminal charges against you. That would have to go to a da but that's a really important feature of the military because it allows commanders to maintain good order and discipline in their units. And so I bring that up because the actions of the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense are remarkable in and of themselves. But also their declaration that this won't be investigated, that no misconduct will be found here, that is actually taking away a really key authority of the commanders that are actually in charge of those operations or of those units that have been doing those flyovers. Now, I'm not saying any of these would have resulted in a court martial. Maybe they wouldn't. But aviation incidents are among the most aggressively investigated in the military for the exact reasons that you just outlined. They are extremely dangerous and fatal if something goes wrong. So it is very much in a commander's interest to want this investigated, even if they're not leaning towards, you know, a uniform code of military justice offense at the end of it, but simply to make sure that training standards are being adhered to. And so this sort of taking away of the lower commander's authorities by the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense, I think that that has very significant knock on effects in terms of how commanders can run their units. I'd also note, just as backdrop, Pete Hegseth has never been in a command position before this. So I think the most command he had was a platoon leader. And that position doesn't have that inherent uniform code of military justice and investigative authority. So it's not really surprising that he wouldn't understand the effects of that. But I just. I would have to think that a commander who is Watching that happen, any of those flyovers that you just played, they must be thinking, look, this is a very fraught time between the civilian and the military. Maybe read the room a little bit and don't do a military show of force over a bunch of civilians. And they might have very good reason to want to look into this, but they've basically been prevented from doing that because of the secretary's actions.

[Mark Hertling]

And, Nicola, can I add something to that, too? Because Margaret's right on track. And I'll go from not the legal side, but the commander side. If you're the commander of the Blue Angels and you've just been overridden by the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense, that's called command influence. At that point, as the commander, the lieutenant commander, the commander, the captain, whoever it is in the Navy says, hey, what happens if this happens again? You know, can I say anything, or am I just going to be overridden? And who's going to take responsibility if that aircraft does have a bird strike? Is it going to be the Secretary of Defense? No, I'm on the line for making sure good morale and discipline is adhered to in my unit. So it just causes a generational issue with command authority, as Margaret said, but also so with just overriding what commanders are supposed to do under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

[Nicole Sganga]

Well, there's more, because when you're covering Pete Hegseth, there's always more. He's declared war on low T. I'll tell you about that on the other side of a short break.

[Eugene Daniels]

But it, I think, is indicative of the fact that there are so many people in this administration that have some weird, like, intense homoerotic feelings towards men while also being incredibly homophobic. And not just homophobic, but like hate mongering, fear mongering about the LGBTQ community. So let me be clear. I don't think the homoeroticism is the weird part. The weird part is that they pretend that that's not what it's about.

[Nicole Sganga]

Well, that was one take about Pete Hegseth, War on low T. I respect science and medicine, and if anyone has an issue, I'm all for them dealing with this, but this is someone who is presiding over the Pentagon while there are. There's a flu outbreak in Texas tied to the elimination of recommendations for flu vaccines. And this is a real push that seems to mean that Pete Hegseth is looking at supplementing testosterone for the men of the military. Your thoughts, Margaret?

[Margaret Donovan]

Well, Nicole, there is so much here, like everybody else I thought Secretary Hexseth's video was an AI joke and a hilarious one, but then I learned that it was real.

[Nicole Sganga]

Me too, my friend. Me too.

[Margaret Donovan]

So now that we know that this is a serious, real life thing that is happening, there's a number of issues with it. The first thing that came to my mind is that the government is litigating this right now in the D.C. circuit and at the appellate court and will likely go to the Supreme Court. And they are trying to keep transgender service members out of the military. Now, their primary reason for doing that, as the appellate court found, is animus and unconstitutional discrimination against them. But their backup argument is basically, we don't have the ability to medically manage hormonal treatments. I am very interested to know how the government is going to square those statements and that argument with Pete Hegset's open endorsement of testosterone supplements, which, by the way, is a Schedule 3 controlled substance and in most leagues considered a performance enhancing drug.

[Amanda Carpenter]

So it is.

[Margaret Donovan]

It will be very interesting for me, I think, to see where that leads. But there are a few other issues as well. As I just said, it is a performance enhancing drug. This is a Schedule 3 substance that is intended, by Secretary Hexad's own words, to plus up people's physical performance as well. If it is only going to men, that is going to skew results on physical fitness tests significantly for people who receive it and people who don't. I don't know if that's accounted for in the physical fitness testing, but as I think you know, that's a very significant part of how people get promoted, whether or not they can pass that test and how good they do on it. And then, as you pointed out, the sheer hypocrisy of being worried about medical readiness when you have an entire basic training course taken out at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas because he didn't want the flu vaccine. I mean, it's just. It's hard to really even comprehend all of it. And then lastly, for me, the elephant in the room is, you know, what does this mean for women? He did not make any distinction between men and women in the policy and the one page preview of it that just published. So that remains to be seen. But this is. It is all kinds of problematic. Yeah.

[Nicole Sganga]

And I guess if he was an otherwise serious leader with a real side hobby, interest in longevity, you could say, like, well, a serious leader looking at the most evolved science. And maybe if that same leader was looking at HRT for women in the opposite, I don't know, but this is a bad faith leader who came on Trump's radar because he championed going around the military's criminal justice system on Fox News. That's why he and Trump are together. So this isn't a person with reverence for the traditions of the military. This isn't a person who is filmed doing much other than like it looks like jazzercise with the troops. I think saying he exercises with them doesn't even really get at it. What is your top concern, if you could land on one?

[Mark Hertling]

JEMMA harling well, Nicole, I've got a little bit of experience with this and I do know that men with documented deficiencies receive testosterone replacement or restoration therapy, often experience increased lean muscle mass, improved strength if they're on a strength training program, better recovery after strenuous activity. I think that is what Secretary AG said is enamored with. But TRT also frequently causes increased hematocrit, which causes potential blood clots, pulmonary embolisms, strokes, dramatically reduced sperm counts, infertility while on the treatment. And you know, if, if we're talking about making healthy individuals stronger, which is what I got from Secretary Hexa's methods message, then that discussion is now shifting from medical treatment to human performance enhancement. And that raises a whole lot of questions about ethics, fairness, long term health and as Margaret just said, military policy. So all of those things come into play. But here's the interesting thing. As you can probably see from the sign behind me, I'm in a hospital right now because I teach leadership to a bunch of physicians. And just, you know, knowing that I was coming on today, I asked a cardiologist or urologist and three endocrinologists what they thought of this. And all of them laughed out loud. And in fact, the three endocrinologists peppered me with information for about a half hour on all the things that are wrong with this particular policy. Now, if someone comes in exhibiting the the diagnosis of someone with low T, they can be treated. But when you're talking about treating them with this kind of therapy, you're talking about taking readings over a three day, three day period at the same time, fasting before they do that, the potential for all the damage that could be done, it's sequential, it's pulse activated. And all three of the endocrinologists told me that they, they treat those with low testosterone. And it's a very difficult thing to do. So when you're talking, as Secretary Hexseth did, about treating everyone 30 and above in the US military, by my count, that's about a million and a half people that are over 30 years old. And it would cost a whole lot of money. And it may result in some really bad diagnosis. So to say it's a bad idea is an understatement.

[Nicole Sganga]

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, Margaret Donovan, thank you both so much for spanning these topics and joining us today. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. My guest on the newest episode of the Best People podcast is one of the most important people in this moment. Knitting together of this fire hose of news with American history and the threat of authoritarianism. She makes sense of the news we get every day from Donald Trump. She's historian Heather Cox Richardson. She writes the extremely popular substack Letters from an American. That episode drops tonight for premium subscribers and for everybody on Monday. We want to thank you for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful.

[Margaret Donovan]

Courage.

[Jess Michaels]

I learned it from my adoptive mom.

[Margaret Donovan]

Hold my hand.

[Adopt Us Kids Representative]

You hold my hand. Learn about adopting a team from foster care at adoptuskids. Org. You can't imagine the reward brought to you by Adopt Us Kids, the UG Council.