"More escalations"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House — "More escalations"

Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC)
Guests: Tim Miller (MSNBC Analyst, Bulwark Podcast Host), Jacob Soboroff (MSNBC Senior Correspondent), Tom Nichols (The Atlantic)
Date: October 8, 2025

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Overview:

This episode covers dramatic and unprecedented developments as the Trump administration deploys National Guard troops from Texas to Chicago without the consent of Illinois, invoking the Insurrection Act to justify military presence in Democratic-led cities. The discussion explores the legal, ethical, and political ramifications of this move, its human toll on local immigrant communities, and growing pushback from unexpected corners of American society, including cultural figures like country superstar Zach Bryan. The episode delivers on-the-ground reporting, legal analysis, and thoughtful debate on the normalization of force and the dangers of authoritarian overreach.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Troops Deployed to Chicago: The Constitutional Crisis

• Situation Recap:
  • Trump administration sends Texas National Guard to Chicago, despite opposition from Gov. Pritzker and pending lawsuits ([01:25]).
  • Legal ambiguity as federal judge April Perry schedules a hearing for Thursday, but troops arrive beforehand ([02:43]).
• On-the-ground Insight:
  • Jacob Soboroff on heavy police and military presence, focusing on peaceful Hispanic neighborhoods, not areas of violence as claimed ([04:48]).
• Quote:
  • "This is not about deportation... This is about authoritarianism. It's about stoking fear. It's about breaking the Constitution..." — Nicolle Wallace ([00:42])
• Contrast with Portland:
  • Portland’s judge temporarily blocked out-of-state troops; Chicago left in limbo ([03:42]).

2. Firsthand Reporting: Community Impact & Policing Tactics

• Anecdotes from Cicero, IL:
  • Border Patrol arrests of Mario Martinez and Daniel Cabrera; both ordinary workers, detained while buying coffee ([06:00]).
  • Martinez lacking medication, family distraught and in the dark about his whereabouts ([07:00]).
  • Community feels targeted regardless of documentation status—"Even though I'm a U.S. citizen... I feel like a target, too." — Family member ([07:05])
• Escalation and Fear:
  • ICE detention’s opacity and families’ helplessness—“People have been moved around so quickly... terrified that... they might be able to make contact... [but] not sure that he's going to get his medicine... nor if they'll ever see him again." — Jacob Soboroff ([08:36])
• Enforcement Justification:
  • Officials claim jurisdiction within 100 miles of the U.S. border; use Lake Michigan as pretext, despite Chicago's non-border location ([09:55]).
  • Racial profiling openly acknowledged in practice ([10:30]).
  • "We can look for people based on their looks and they may not be looking like you." — Local Border Patrol officer (paraphrased by Soboroff) ([09:55]).

3. Aggressive Tactics & Violence

• Shooting Incident:
  • Attorney for woman shot by Border Patrol alleges profanity and provocation before the shooting, contradicting official claims ([11:34]).
  • Federal agencies provide little to no transparency; "Radio silence from ICE and CBP." — Soboroff ([12:40])
• Intimidation by Design:
  • Militarization on display—“Agents sticking less lethal weapons out the windows, yelling at protesters or people who are monitoring them.” ([13:30])

4. Bigger Picture: What’s at Stake?

• Authoritarian Moves:
  • Tom Nichols: "The point is to create an atmosphere of fear and risk and danger... to get people acclimated to that." ([15:10])
  • Not about immigration, but about consolidating presidential power and sending a message—“what we can do to illegal immigrants... we can do to you.” ([15:20])
• Historical Parallel:
  • Tim Miller draws chilling comparison to National Guard deployments during Civil Rights Era, noting “has not happened since the Civil Rights Act... only because the president... wants to signal their power...” ([17:18])
• Congressional Weakness:
  • Tim Miller: "I think the Republican-led Congress looks completely flaccid and impotent... None should have a case to their own constituents that they've done anything..." ([19:11])
  • Support for prosecuting terrorists undermined by politically motivated firings ([20:00]).

5. Suppressing Dissent and Electoral Fears

• Concern for 2026 Elections:
  • Wallace warns of National Guard presence potentially deployed to polling places to intimidate voters ([23:12]).
• Counter-disinformation:
  • Nichols argues, "We have to say out loud what they are obviously doing" for democratic protection ([24:22]).

6. Documentation and Public Resistance

• Rapid Response:
  • Grassroots groups document and share videos of raids, helping to both inform and mobilize the public ([26:56]).
• Show of Force as Content:
  • Government uses recordings of raids for internet propaganda, aiming to extend fear beyond Chicago ([28:10]).
• Masks and Accountability:
  • Wallace: "You don't get to be in a mask. You have to tell us who you are... there is going to be mass outrage... people just get it instinctually that this is wrong." ([29:39])

7. Cultural Pushback: Zach Bryan's Protest Song

• Country Music's Rebellion:
  • Superstar Zach Bryan releases anti-ICE, anti-deportation song, drawing MAGA backlash ([33:20]).
  • Lyrics explicitly call out police and government repression ([34:03]).
• Cultural Inflection Point:
  • Bryan isn’t an anomaly; country genre’s outlaw tradition aligns with his activism—“art is meant to disrupt...” — Dominic Patton ([36:57])
• Government Counterattack:
  • Department of Homeland Security attempts to troll Bryan with song misuse—backfires due to disconnect between themes of redemption/community and administration’s actions ([41:11]).

8. The Power of Culture and Public Opinion

• Culture as Resistance:
  • Miller: "If he's lost country music and he's lost Barstool [Sports]... why isn't there more sense of we're on the offense?" ([39:14])
  • Wallace: "[Mass deportation and intimidation] is extremely unpopular, and... Democrats need to get a stiff in their spine on this and talk about this issue." ([39:49])
• Art and Comedy:
  • Ongoing debates about artistic and comedic censorship—Kimmel’s stand, Saudi comedy festival, and the tension between artistic ethics and regime money ([43:25]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"This is not about deportation. This is not about safety... This is about authoritarianism. It's about stoking fear."
— Nicolle Wallace ([00:42])

"I feel like a target, too—even though I'm a U.S. citizen."
— Family member of detainee, via Jacob Soboroff ([07:05])

"The inability to get a straight answer from ICE or CBP... has also been a constant in this large-scale mass deportation effort."
— Jacob Soboroff ([13:14])

"The point is to create an atmosphere of fear and risk and danger and to get people used to that... not about immigration... it's about getting the American people used to the idea that Donald Trump is an absolute ruler..."
— Tom Nichols ([15:10])

"We are in a place that this has not happened since the Civil Rights Act... only because the president... wants to signal their power."
— Tim Miller ([17:18])

"Nobody likes what they're seeing play out... So the country music superstar Zach Bryan is using his massive, massive platform to call out ICE, and MAGA is absolutely freaking out..."
— Nicolle Wallace ([32:52])

"If he's lost country music and he's lost Barstool, why isn't there more sense of we're on the offense on the other side?"
— Tim Miller ([39:14])

"You don't get to be in a mask. You have to tell us who you are... people just get it instinctually that this is wrong."
— Nicolle Wallace ([29:39])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Troops in Chicago/Legal Showdown — [01:25]–[03:42]
• Community-level Impacts & Detentions — [04:48]–[08:19]
• Legal Loophole/Racial Profiling — [09:44]–[10:30]
• Border Patrol Violence — [11:34]–[12:40]
• Authoritarian Motives (Tom Nichols) — [15:10]
• Historical Context & Congressional Failure — [17:18]–[21:17]
• Election-Related Fears — [23:07]–[24:22]
• Rapid Response Documentation — [26:56]–[29:15]
• Cultural Pushback (Zach Bryan segment) — [33:20]–[34:53]
• Power of Art & Pop Culture Politics — [36:57]–[41:11]

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Tone & Takeaways

• The tone is urgent, alarmed, and direct, with undercurrents of both outrage and hope.
• The show's hosts and guests blend legal analysis, emotional interviews, and pop culture references to paint the moment as a critical inflection point in American democracy.
• There is a recurring theme that while federal and congressional resistance is weak, cultural and grassroots backlash is growing—potentially signaling a broader reckoning ahead.

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For Further Listening:

Stay tuned to Deadline: White House for continued coverage of the National Guard standoff, the legal battles ahead, and the evolving resistance in American civil and cultural life.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Tim Miller]

The app Download Today the connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

[Nicole Wallace]

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. As far as what we are hearing, the National Guard, first of all, it's illegal, unconstitutional, it's dangerous, it's wrong. This is not about deportation. This is not about safety for this president. This is about authoritarianism. It's about stoking fear. It's about breaking the Constitution that would give him that much more control over our American cities.

[Tim Miller]

Hi again everyone. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. More escalations to report in the standoff between our commander in chief and American cities he doesn't like today as leaders like the one you just heard Chicago's mayor call out Trump's desires to deploy federal troops to the streets of cities run by Democratic elected officials as Trump in the Oval Office yet again raise the prospect of invoking the Insurrection act today, notable not just for the growing clash of rhetoric, but of troops actually appearing on the ground. The Texas National Guard has arrived in Chicago. The Chicago Tribune reports that its journalists, quote, saw several military members dressed in camouflage and carrying long guns on federal property in the far southwest suburbs Tuesday morning. Soldiers who had T patches on their arms identical to the one shown in a picture tweeted by Texas Governor Greg Abbott on Monday, could be seen walking in and out of mobile sleeping units on the site, end quote. The presence of these out of state troops comes as a judge declined to immediately respond to a lawsuit filed by the state of Illinois, which we covered on this program yesterday. That lawsuit said the Trump administration's efforts to send in the National Guard against the wishes of the state's governor are illegal and unconstitutional. The judge in this case, U.S. district Judge April Perry, said she needed time to go through the government's response to the suit and scheduled a hearing for Thursday day, giving Trump and his allies a small window of time to send troops into the Windy City, an opportunity they are seizing upon. But as Illinois Governor JP Pritzker said to our colleague Rachel Maddow last night, taking this step could be risky before the judge officially rules watch.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, the judge did warn the federal lawyers that if in fact they brought those National Guard and put them on the streets, that that would be a really bad idea. May be a ruling against them in just a couple of days. And I might add that if they do deploy them to the streets and then they are ruled against, I mean, how embarrassing to have to turn tail and run back to Texas two days after you've arrived in Chicago.

[Tim Miller]

Chicago being in the state of limbo for a few days stands in contrast to what has happened this week in Portland, where a judge did temporarily block the administration from sending in National Guard troops from other states. The Illinois attorney general argues in the lawsuit filed yesterday, quote, the American people, regardless of where they reside, should not live under the threat of occupation by the US Military, particularly not simply because their city or state leadership has fallen out of a president's favor. That is where we begin the hour. Some of our favorite reporters and friends. MSNBC senior national and political correspondent Jacob Soboroff is on the ground outside Chicago. Also joining us, staff writer at the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic daily newsletter. Tom Nichols is here. He's a professor emeritus, emeritus of national security affairs at the U.S. naval War College, where he taught for more than two decades, plus host of the Bulwark Podcast. MSNBC political analyst Tim Miller is here. Jacob, I start with you. Just bring me up to date since we talked exactly 24 hours ago of what you're seeing and reporting on the ground in Chicago.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, as you said, Nicole, you know, the big development of the day is that the National Guard from Texas is now here. But I think that the point that I everyone needs to understand and is crucially important for us to make is the reason they're here is because the president of the United States and his allies are calling this city and Cook county and the surrounding areas essentially lawless. The situation is out of control. It requires the National Guard to put down and protect not only the federal agents here, but widespread violence across this city. That is not what I have seen in this city at all. And in fact, if they are indeed going after the worst of the worst, we, msnbc, witnessed the exact opposite today. And I want to tell you one specific anecdotal story that we saw here in Cicero. This is the most Hispanic community in all of Illinois. 80%, 89%. Almost 90% of the people who live here are Latino or Hispanic out of the 90,000 people that live here. And we showed up at this bakery literally 20 minutes today after they went after. And they arrested two people. And I want to make sure I give you their names. And let's take a picture. Let's take a picture of them right now so I can show you who they are. Mario Martinez and Daniel Cabrera. This is a video of border patrol. There they are. Mario Martinez is on the right. Daniel Cabrera is on the left. The border patrol showed up here outside of this bakery. They have been patrolling this neighborhood all day, and they grabbed these guys. We can show that video again. We've got some surveillance video from inside that they were doing nothing other than grabbing their cup of coffee before their day of work. And they are two of multiple people who have been taken in this neighborhood today alone. Not because they are the worst of the worst. I also met people. Here's some surveillance video as they chase these guys. They left their cups of coffee, as you see there, sitting down on the trash can outside of the store after border patrol. And it looks like they've got someone following them, actually filming there. Nicole chased them inside this bakery while we were here reporting on the scene. A cousin of one of the two men, Daniel, showed up to ask me, do I know where to find him. I want to show you a little bit of our conversation right now. Watch this. They just randomly showed up. He didn't do anything wrong. They just took him forcefully. They're scaring everybody around now. So I feel like a target, too.

[Tim Miller]

Even though I'm a U.S. citizen.

[Nicole Wallace]

But you feel like they would even arrest you? Yeah, at this point, I do. Does your cousin have a family? Yeah, he does. His mom, dad, everybody here. His kids. He's got kids, too? Yeah. And so now what country is he from? He's originally from Mexico, but he was making a life here for his family. And as you can, like I told you, he was about to open up a shop. I'm really sorry again that you're going through this, and I appreciate it. And I know that you're looking for him. You still don't know where he is?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I'm just trying to find any.

[Nicole Wallace]

Clues, ideas, see where they took him, why they took him, and what's the whole purpose for this? That's a question, Nicole, that people all across Chicago, but especially today in this neighborhood are asking where is their loved ones? Where are their family members who have been picked up off the street, not because they're the worst of the worst, but because they were going about their daily activities. Mario Martinez has been in the hospital for the last several months. He had a heart condition, was sick as well. He doesn't have his medication. And his wife was telling us just like, just like Nori Ramos, who we've introduced to people from on your show as well. Not sure that he's going to get his medicine inside ICE detention, what the consequences of that will be, nor if they'll ever see him again. The question.

[Tim Miller]

I think people watching wonder how that is possible, that someone who drove up to a bakery to get a cup of coffee is now someone that you can there credibly report his family may never see again? Say more.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, that's exactly right. I was at the Broadview ICE detention facility yesterday. Here was the first place I went when I got to Chicago, because it's become somewhat of a flashpoint. It's been this staging location, both for the federal agents, but also for the people that they're bringing there before they send them off to other ICE detention facilities. And I can't tell you the number of people, including people in LA who we haven't reported about on air, who contact me regularly almost every day saying, I can't find my loved one in the system. Usually there's something called an A number that ICE has and they're able to track people very specifically. But people have been moved around so quickly, quickly within this ICE detention system that people are terrified that while they might be able to make contact and Mr. Martinez was able to contact his wife and say that he hopes that he can get his medicine from her. He doesn't know how long he's going to be detained for here in the Illinois area, if he's going to be sent to a detention center in Arizona or Louisiana or California. And how long it'll be before the Trump administration sends this gentleman to Mexico, a place he hasn't been for much of his life, and leaving the home behind of this beautiful neighborhood, this peaceful neighborhood today in the western suburbs of.

[Tim Miller]

Chicago, what is the predicate that they articulate beyond racial profiling?

[Nicole Wallace]

It's such an important question as well. Governor Pritzker said to Rachel, I thought it was the most fascinating part of the interview last night about why they are operating in the Chicago area. They have they are allowed to operate within 100 miles of the US border by statute. But obviously Chicago is not within 100 miles of the northern border to Canada. They are saying they are operating here because Lake Michigan is the border with Canada. And that is the excuse, according to Governor Britzker, at least what he told Rachel last night. So they're saying they have full reign to drive around as if they are on the southwest road border or in a border community on the northern border to look for people who are undocumented in day to day activities. We heard what Greg Bovino said to the local reporter here in Chicago, and I'm paraphrasing, but he essentially said we can look for people based on their looks and they may not be looking like you. The reporter was white or Caucasian. That's what people here feel like that. Why would the Border Patrol in tactical gear, masked up, be running around chasing people, getting a cup of coffee in the most Hispanic neighborhood in the state of Illinois when things are largely peaceful here? Why would an elderly woman around the corner from here, around the same time be picked up as she walked down the street? Her neighbor walked out shaking when I was talking to him, so nervous that he had seen this immigration enforcement operation take place on his peaceful residential street where I asked him, are there murderers and rapists and criminals? Is that what's going on around here? And he said, no, absolutely not. This is a hard working community. But the Border Patrol says they're operating within their legal right to be within 100 miles of the US border, which I guess according to Governor Pritzker is Lake Michigan.

[Tim Miller]

Let me ask you about one more story that we've covered together this week. This is the Chicago Sun Times, which has had incredible reporting on what's happening in its city. An attorney for the woman shot by Border Patrol claims agents said, quote, do something B word before shooting, quote, body camera video of a Border Patrol agent involved in the shooting of a woman who was allegedly chasing agents in Brighton park over the weekend shows an officer saying, quote, do something B word before pulling over and shooting the woman five times. The woman's attorney said in federal court Monday. The video appears to contradict the government's allegation that Marmar Martinez, 30 years old, drove tort officers before one of them opened fire on her late Saturday morning on kedzi Avenue near 39th Street. Her attorney, Christopher Parenti, said at a detention hearing at the Dirksen Federal Courthouse. What is your understanding of who is crafting the government statements and their association with the truth at this point?

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, we reached out to ICE and CBP about what happened here, Nicole, and its radio Silence. And you hear from them in times. I feel, as someone who tries to get answers from them regularly, when these things reach a boiling point, that they're sort of forced to respond. And this one was a flashpoint that everybody saw a woman was shot. And now this alternate telling of the story is coming out that contradicts their initial explanation of what happened. And we have seen that time and again. One thing we've also seen time and again that's consistent with that telling of the story, and obviously I can't confirm those specifics myself, is the aggressive nature of the behavior of the federal agents on the streets. And in essence, they want people to see how aggressive they're being, whether it's marching down Michigan Avenue with masks and long rifles or coming into a community like this, driving around. I've seen from rapid response community members here today alone, agents sticking less lethal weapons out the windows, yelling at protesters or people who are monitoring them. That aggressive behavior is what is the constant. The inability to get a straight answer from ICE or cbp, in my experience as a journalist, has also been a constant in this large scale mass deportation effort, whether it's at Home Depot parking lots in Los Angeles or here in Cicero in Chicago. And that's why I think it's so important that, and I'm grateful to you and to MSNBC for having us here on the ground so that we can see it for ourselves. We're only 20, 20 minutes behind this, but these incidents are happening every day all around this community now for almost one month. It'll be a month on the 8th.

[Tim Miller]

Tom Nichols, let me bring you in on this because obviously the communities and the individuals, the human beings being targeted and their loved ones who are, you know, telling Jacob they don't know if they'll ever see them again because they went and got a cup of coffee on their way to work. These are people with jobs, these are people with families. That is happening. But the federal agents and especially the troops being poured into these cities, they are at a heightened risk of all sorts of things as well. I mean, they're at risk of losing public confidence. They're at risk of being viewed as political actors. In Trump's complicated stage crafted play with the scenes written by Stephen Miller, this puts everyone in danger. And I wonder what your sense is of what part of the story. Are we at the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end? Where are we?

[Nicole Wallace]

We're at the beginning. And it does put people in danger and it puts everybody in danger. And that's the point, the point is to create an atmosphere of fear and risk and danger and to get people used to that, to get people acclimated to that. You know, this story really isn't about immigration. It's. If it were about immigration, then, you know, as the old saying, go be hunting where the ducks are. You wouldn't be sending the Texas National Guard to Cicero, Illinois. That's the tell that. That's not what this is all about. It's about getting the American people used to the idea that Donald Trump is an absolute ruler who can put the military in the streets at will and intimidate everyone, including citizens. And I think that's part of the point here, is to say what we can do to illegal immigrants, to people that are here illegally, we can do to you. And we can set Americans against each other with armed force to keep all of you off of the bigger problem of challenging the president, challenging his authority, demanding to see, I hate to say it again, the Epstein files to keep people off the streets in case they get crazy ideas about voting or engaging in civic, in any kind of civic activity, protesting, expressing dissent. This, this really is a group of people in the White House who have decided that democracy has to be, has to be stopped because especially when they know they're the minority, their ideas are unpopular, their president is unpopular, and this is a sign of fear on their part. But when you have the army and the police, when an autocratic leader has those and he's afraid, he puts them in the streets.

[Tim Miller]

Tim Miller, how do you see this moment? And this week feels different. I mean, we talk every week. This escalation in Chicago and attempted escalation in Portland does feel different.

[Nicole Wallace]

It does. This actually very moment feels different. I was looking at social media before I got on, and you know, we.

[Tim Miller]

Have the national going, bless you for looking, bring myself to look. Tell me what it says.

[Nicole Wallace]

Unfortunately, I'm not doing it, you know, just for kicks. I just feel like I should know what's happening before I come on, but thank you. I'm doing my best to call, but the Texas National Guard troops have landed in, in Illinois, as Tom mentioned, and it's. They've landed there against the wishes of the Illinois governor. And, and you don't want to be bombastic about this and start using words like civil war because they haven't actually done anything yet. Who knows, maybe this walk around and, and mulch the public parks like they were doing in D.C. but we are in a place that this has not happened since the Civil Rights act. Has not happened in our lifetime. The last time the federal government or other states sent National Guards into a state against the governor's will was to enforce the Civil Rights act against the segregationist Southern states. And that is where we are right now. It is at that level of crisis. And it is happen apropos of basically nothing. It is happening only because the president of the United States and his accolades, Stephen Miller, want to signal their power, as Tom Nichols was pointing out, but also grab as much power as they can throughout both the federal government and now across the states. And so to me, I think that's why that's different. The ICE stories and the stuff that Jacob has been talking about is so tragic and horrible, really affecting that, as he said, has been something that's been going on for a while now. This effort to send these Texas troops into Chicago is a real inflection point, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

I keep hearing people say Trump is so strong and emboldened. I actually think what's being revealed through the X ray of our country's sort of the country's MRI is the weakness of everybody else. I don't think Trump looks strong. I think the Republican led Congress looks completely flaccid and impotent and lame, like none of them should have a case to make to their own constituents that they've done anything and to not uphold these basic, never before this moment, disputed norms of the vision that the founders had for our country. I saw an interview that you did with Kent Burns that what the founders didn't imagine is that Congress would take themselves off the field.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, it is pretty astonishing. I mean, at least I don't know. I can't get inside the minds and hearts of Republicans in Congress when it comes to this National Guard deployment. And a lot of them had said that they were opposed it in past lives and Obama and Biden were president and they had imaginary fantasies about Obama invading Texas. There's like a whole Jade Helm conspiracy around. All of that's a deep cut for folks who are in the Fox orbit 15 years ago. So they said they were opposed to it, but there are other areas where we know they're opposed to it, where Donald Trump is grabbing power right now and where their weakness is just so shocking. One thing that I think about is the firing of these prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia. We fired these folks who are currently prosecuting terrorists that are allegedly responsible for the deaths of 13American soldiers in Afghanistan. The point person on that prosecution was fired because I guess Pam Bondi and Donald Trump didn't wanna have somebody around that they didn't think was fully on. They don't really have even evidence of this. This person was just smeared on social media. So they just fired them. Like they don't have the strength and the confidence of anybody within there who dissents at all. And these guys in Congress, you would think they would be opposed to that. The Republicans in Congress want to have these terrorists prosecuted and yet they're all silent right now in the face of this.

[Tim Miller]

It's incredible. No one's going anywhere. I want it because Tom raised the idea of voting in elections. I'll show you what Governor Pritzker said to my colleague Rachel Maddow about that. Jacob sticks around on the ground. Tim sticks around. We'll have much more on the other side of a break. Also ahead for us, he is one of the biggest, hugest artists. Hugest? Is that a word? Did I just make one up? One of the biggest recording artists on the planet. He just sold out the largest ticketed stadium concert in history. Country superstar Zach Bryan is under fire right now from MAGA after he teased a new song that criticized. We'll tell you what it says and we'll have that conversation ahead. Also, at a time when comedians have become a lightning rod here at home for free speech and free expression in our country, a comedy festival and a highly repressive regime is paying big bucks to stand up comedians while telling them what they can and can't tell jokes about. It's opened yet another front in the fight over free speech all around the world. We'll get to that this hour as well when Deadly White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day, deep everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

[Nicole Wallace]

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.

[Tim Miller]

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically translate, transform America.

[Nicole Wallace]

Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail] subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows. Ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts Next year, I fear that what they're going to do is deploy these folks eventually to polling places and say they're protecting the vote. Donald Trump knows that without shenanigans and without these breaches of the Constitution that he's going to lose the Congress.

[Tim Miller]

Tom Nichols, I want you to weigh in and pull this thread with me. I mean, one of the tenets, you know this better than me, of counterterror after 911 was if you see something, say something. And, and again, I think the public got a glimpse at that tactic in the lead up to the Russian invasion of Ukraine when the Biden administration sought to declassify intelligence and there was declassified imagery of the Russian tanks along Ukraine's border. And I wonder if you think it could be an effective tactic to protect democracy. To say out loud what they are obviously doing.

[Nicole Wallace]

Absolutely. That's why one of the reasons I keep saying this isn't about immigration, it's not about public disorder, it's not about crime, it's about power. And that's all it's about. Donald Trump doesn't and I think that's also true, by the way, I would add about foreign policy. I don't think Donald Trump really cares about speedboats in the middle of nowhere in the Caribbean. What he wants to do is show that when he says blow something up, the military salutes smartly and says okay. And that's a message to everybody. I'm not sure. In fact, I'm writing about it shortly. I'm not sure how long the military is going to keep, you know, be able to keep obeying orders that I think on their face at least some of them are illegal. But that's Trump's whole game is to, is to do things as a way of saying because I can't. And that way, by the time and I'm worried about the same thing Governor Pritzker worries about. But by the time the midterm elections come around, he's going to say, oh, I think there are terrorists or criminals or illegal immigrants or, you know, spelling reformers or out of control vegans or whatever in the streets of Chicago. And he's going to put troops into the streets as a way of intimidating people to stay away from political activity, which is the thing authoritarians do with the army, not even to actively attack people, but simply to put them there to induce caution and self censorship and self discipline to stay out of the public space by people who ordinarily would be active and enthusiastic participants in their democracy. This administration, all of the things we're talking about today, are meant to smother democratic behavior on the part of American citizens. That's the thing we have to keep saying out loud.

[Tim Miller]

Jacob Soubroff, I think you have some reporting right on this topic.

[Nicole Wallace]

As we've been on the air. Nicole, just to Tom Nichols point, we have got some more video in that shows how the Trump administration is already trying to normalize force and fear and disorder on the streets of American cities with militarized police forces. Let's pull this up. This is a video that happened again. I told you the story. Just around the corner from here. Watch this. This is a neighborhood literally, I think, five, five minutes walk from where I am right now. Berwyn. In Berwyn, 24th and Lombard. Today, 1109am they took a woman walking on the sidewalk moments after they recorded this video. This comes to us from the Chicago alliance against Racist and Political Repression, a group that's been part of the Rapid Response Network. You can see exactly what's happening happening on your screen right now. Troops on American streets. Taking. Taking a woman off the streets with this show of force. What.

[Tim Miller]

What did. I mean, what did they say they took her for? Just, again, racial profiling.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, there it was. I mean, they obviously didn't say to me, but listen to what they're saying. Otherwise we're gonna arrest you from impeding your audit. I'm not impeding anything. We're letting you know this is the first warning and last warning. Okay? You got that? What are your guys's names? This right here, do you guys have a name for this? Is the name 2 306. Stop following us. Next time, it's not gonna be a warning. You got it? I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm not breaking any laws right here. It doesn't matter.

[Tim Miller]

Wow.

[Nicole Wallace]

The man in the video on the far right, Nicole, appears to be the same person that we showed in the surveillance video. Although we'll confirm that that was recording them here on this corner as they went and apprehended the two men standing outside with a. You know, maybe that's part of their Social media crew I talked about this morning that they're using this in addition to so fear in the community to do a show of force. They're also creating Internet content just like they did when they marched through MacArthur park in LA and didn't arrest anybody. Just like they did when they rappelled onto the roof of that building where, as you've been talking about, they zip tied kids and American citizens and brought them out into the street. They're making content based on all of this to spread to other parts of America to let people know that this could come to your community soon.

[Tim Miller]

Tim, it feels like doing all the things Tom talked about, calling it out is a vital piece of this. But what is the sickness that makes Kristi Noem say she gets off on watching these raids and this that she loves? And I think Stephen Miller's wife said something similar. How do you fix that in the human soul?

[Nicole Wallace]

You don't fix their souls. I don't know that Kristi Noem soul. Well, I guess we're all redeemable, but I don't know that. We've got a ton of hope for Kristi Noem, but maybe she can change her ways. But look, I think that there's something Tom was talking about, how this is about power and trying to stamp out dissent. I think it is worth noting that part hasn't worked so far, actually. I mean, at the elite level, people have become weakened. But there have been protests. There'll be another round of no Kings protests that I expect to be very big coming up here in a couple of weeks. We'll see how that turns out with voting. A lot of times these efforts to stifle it end up backfiring. You see the community reaction in Chicago and seen videos of people trying to protect their neighbors from these sorts of attacks. That guy with the video going up to these masked officials. So that part is working. And you're seeing some backlash. I mean, not as much as we would want. Even in some Trump corners, people that have been friendly to Trump about these masked officials and the deportations. I know we're talking about the country music singer later. And so you're seeing some pushback to that, and for good reason, because that doesn't look like America. I just think. One other thing I just have to say watching that video, so sick is these masked guys going after people on the streets of Chicago like that is not America. You don't get to be in a mask. You have to tell us who you are. There are many people that put themselves at risk on behalf of the country that are at threat. And there's that judge in South Carolina whose house was just set on fire recently pulled over here. I don't know what they're still investigating what that was. But judges, prosecutors, all of us, many people put themselves at risk. And if you're representing the government, you don't get to do it in a mask or in secret. That is part of public service. And I think that there is going to be mass outrage against this because people just get it instinctually that this is wrong. Videos like this are wrong.

[Tim Miller]

It's a good reminder, I mean, the people that talk about loving this content, the people for whom they're creating this content to Jacob's reporting are a micro minority. And it is sad that anybody derives pleasure from other people's suffering. But it is not the prevailing view in this country. It's an important reminder, I think, for all of us. Jacob Soborough, we're so lucky that you were there reporting on the ground. Please come back if you learn anything else in the next half hour. Tom Nichols, thank you for bringing all of this into sharp, sharp, disturbing focus for me and for us. Tim sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back. All of what we've been covering is, as we've been discussing, very unpopular, not just among Donald Trump's political critics, but among all walks of life. Nobody likes what they're seeing play out so much. So the country music superstar Zach Bryan is using his massive, massive platform to call out ice and MAGA is absolutely freaking out, having an epic snowflake episode. Well, show you what that looks like next. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

[Nicole Wallace]

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Tim Miller]

The growing anger and distrust that the American people are feeling toward the Trump administration and what they're seeing on the streets of American cities in the ICE raids has become so nearly universally disliked that it has even reached the traditionally conservative world of country. Grammy Award winning singer songwriter Zach Bryan released a clip of a new song on social media directly calling out the cruelty of mass deportations. Brian, who served in the Navy for eight years, is a country superstar. His music has reached 16.2 billion streams on Spotify and Just last month, he set the record for the largest ticketed concert in U.S. history. Listen to his new song.

[Nicole Wallace]

My friends are all degenerates but they're all I got the generational story of dropping the plot I hurt the cops Cops came cocky mother, ain't they? And I come bust down your door Try to build a house on bills no more but I got a telephone Kids are all scared and all alone the bar stop bumping the rock stop rolling My middle fingers rising and I won't stop showing Got some bad news. The fading of a red, white and blue.

[Tim Miller]

Notable at this moment. Notable. Joining our coverage is Dominic Patton, executive editor of Deadline.com Tim Miller is still with us, of course. Dominic, what do you think?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I think this is Zach doing exactly what he does. Well, I mean, in a way that he releases his songs. This is pretty much a 21st century way of doing it, putting up snippets on Instagram. And it's also within brand for him. Yes, it's very unlike what we see in the conservative world of contemporary country music. But Zach was someone who, back in 2022, came out against people going after trans and saying we should respect all people's rights. He's made a lot of comments about things like that over the years. And also remember, country and western music has a very strong tradition of outlaws on the best sense of the word. Willie Nelson, God bless him, American legend. If America was to have a king, it probably would be Willie Nelson with Dolly Part Parton as our queen and people like the late, great Chris, Chris Austerson. So in many ways, this is within the realms of country music. But I think it also hits a little harder because this is something that the MAGA world are very sensitive about. You know, we've seen some country superstars, no one as big as Zach, I might add, kick back against him. We've also seen the administration kick back against him, basically using the same thing they've used against sports figures who've spoken out against politics. When they say, just stick to dribbling or who hoops, they said, just stick to Pink Skies, his song about people getting together and hanging out. You know, don't get into the political stuff. And that usually means they're feeling a pinch.

[Tim Miller]

Brad Paisley has publicly backed the war in Ukraine, vaccines. You have other country music artists using their platforms. And I guess it's news because in this moment where there can be a sense of despair or overwhelm, that MAGA's tightening its grip, and we all had that conversation together. When Disney took Kimmel off the air after a mean comment from Brad Carr on a podcast. It is notable. And I just wonder, Dominic, if it is too much to say that critics are feeling more confident or more emboldened or this is an act of courage or is it what you're talking about simply sort of consistent with his own brand and his own relationship with his fans.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think, Nicole, that it's both. I think that it is consistent with his brand. I think it's consistent with who he is. And I think fans of Zach's aren't that surprised by this. At the same time, I think though that art is meant to disrupt, isn't it? I mean, complacent art is illustration by any other name. So I think that in many ways this is what we're seeing. We've seen it. You know, you and I have talked about Bruce Springsteen, we've seen it with other people. There is definitely a feeling there that this might be the platform. Comedians and musicians, maybe filmmakers with another. Another battle. But I think that in many ways that the resistance, if it was one, is about that. And it's very telling that again I say this MAGA respond with great urgency here because they live in a world that's essentially an ongoing pageant or reality TV show. They know the power of imagery, just like the race. Reagan's. The Reagan's did back in the day that famous James Baker quote about we don't care what you say about us as long as you show us with lots of American flags. So I think in that sense they're fully aware that this is where the cracks can come. Especially when you see the kind of videos that we just saw that you and Tim were talking about and the guys earlier and what have you. Look, all I know is in America there's a long history of people wearing masks, but they're also wear white hoods to go with them. So you make the connections.

[Tim Miller]

Tim Miller I think this is so important because sort of the history of pushing back when it works, it's always interconnected with culture. And there's actually I can't find any example of the resistance or the opposition or the comeback that has succeeded without being tied in to culture and moving people not just through politicians and campaigns and elections, but through culture. And I thought your conversation. Let me play it. This is your interview with Barstool HOJ host Kevin Clancy. I thought this was really notable as well.

[Nicole Wallace]

A lot of Democrats are kind of scared to talk about immigration because they've like internalized that like biden at the border, which he did. And that immigration's a winning issue for Trump. And so they shouldn't talk about it because it's like, it's a loser for them. And I'm kind of like, I don't know, man. I think that, like, most media middle the road. People don't want mass dudes taking people that are gardening. I think you're pretty crazy if you think that. Like, I think you're an absolute bat crazy person if you're like, that's good.

[Tim Miller]

So if he's lost country music and he's lost barstool, why isn't there more sense of we're on the offense on. On the other side? And why isn't it reflected sort of in the. In the body language of Democrats?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, sorry for all the bleeps and that.

[Tim Miller]

No, I love it. I love it. I love the whole thing. And I. I don't know. I don't think I have it, but I love when he says, everyone at barstool's a liberal, and you're like, what?

[Nicole Wallace]

What?

[Tim Miller]

So I'm gonna ask you about that, but this is interesting. Like. Like, nobody's for this. And if you think they are, you're bat bleep crazy.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. And I think that's right. I mean, some people are for it. Obviously, it's a big country, but just huge swaths of the country are not for this type of immigration. Maybe they should have seen the mass deportation now signs and known this was coming and not voted for Trump. I get it. I understand the frustration Democrats have, but it is extremely unpopular, and I do think the Democrats need to get a stiff in their spine on this and talk about this issue. And I think it's really notable that Zach Bryan, as a country music singer, made the protest song about ice. It could been about anything, but he made it about immigration. And Zach Bryan is. I just don't pretend like I'm a big fan of him. I'm not. He's a mainstream country singer. My friends went to his show in football stadiums. Right. So it's not like he's a niche kind of liberal indie country artist. He's singing in massive football stadiums, and this is what he wanted to talk about. And so if he feels comfortable doing that, there are obviously Trump voters in those stadiums, then Democrats should feel very comfortable talking about it too. And I think it's a really important issue, and it's a really. It's a way people can to win people over. Just one other thing about the grotesqueness of the administration and, and Kristi Noem's soul that we were talking about, which I appreciate you didn't play. But to troll Zach Bryan, they put out a post our Department of Homeland Security, our country's Department of Homeland Security, playing one of his songs called Revival over, like the chaining of immigrants. And it was a way to troll him, I guess, for pushing back on this. And that song, which I didn't know before, but I went and read up on and learned about, is about somebody that's had struggles, somebody that maybe has been to prison and somebody that's had redemption and found redemption in their life through the Bible and through family and their friends and maybe drinking and community. And that is like a song, I guess, that he plays at the end of every set. And for this, our administration to try to take that and take a song that is about redemption and giving people a second chance and make it about submission and chaining people and vengeance, it is gross and people don't like it and they're going to respond negatively to it. And I think that it's important to have people like Zach Bryant out there making delivering that message because I think it's going to resonate with people. Like you said, if it's resonating with the barstool guys and country music singers singing to football stadiums, surely it should be something that Democrats know resonates broadly well.

[Tim Miller]

And I have to sneak in a break. I'm getting yelled at. But Trump's at 37% before they misappropriated Zach Bryan, before the sort of war with Bad Bunny really reaches peak MAGA frenzy, before, you know, they're attacking, I think, one of the biggest movies in the country right now. So Trump's at 37% before attacking everything that is popular and culturally salient. We're going to sneak in a break. We'll all be right back on the other side. We're back. Dominic, what I want to ask you, what I wanted to ask you was if the Kimmel cycle changed something. But then I saw some of the most iconic comedians in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia, and it felt like whiplash. And again, from the outside, it's hard to tell if they're related or unrelated. So I guess I'll stick with my original question. Did the Kimmel pushback and response from the public change anything in the entertainment industry? And is the Saudi comedy festival an outlier or a sign of things to come?

[Nicole Wallace]

I will keep it very short because I do not bleep as well as Tim Miller. Much respect Yes. I think Jimmy Kimmel changed a lot. It was the power of boycott and the power of the people. I think people have been taking the money from the Saudis for a very long time and from many other regimes that we do not like very much. And I think that's what is I always say that's why they call it show business and not show friends. And if you're disappointed that some of your favorite comedians took the money, then I say listen to Mark Maron a bit more because he didn't.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we'll play some of that tomorrow. We'll have full coverage on that story tomorrow. We'll have you back. Dominic, thanks for joining us today. Tim, thank you for spending the whole hour with me, my friend. And great interview, all of them on your podcast. One more break for us. We'll be right back. It has been exactly two years since the October 7th terrorist attack in Israel when Hamas terrorists killed 1200 innocent people and took another 250 people hostage. Today, 48 of those hostages are still in Gaza, with 20 believed to be alive as Israel and Hamas begin indirect talks this weekend over Donald Trump's plan to release the hostages and end the war. This morning, a moment of silence was held at the site of the Nova Music Festival, one of the targets of Hamas's horrific terrorist attack. People there mourning those lost and calling for return of all of the hostages living and dead in the Gaza Strip. This morning, Israeli Airstrikes continued with Hamas's media saying that more than 100 people have been killed in Gaza during the last 72 hours. The humanitarian crisis in Gaza has grown over the last two years, with more than 67,000 people killed by Israeli forces, widespread famine and most of the more than 2 million people in Gaza forced from their homes. Donald Trump's Middle east envoy, Steve Witkoff, is on his way to Egypt to join the talks between Israeli and Palestinian delegations. We'll keep you updated on any progress. One more break. We'll be right back. Anthony Scaramucci, former Trump whisperer turned truth teller, is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. Scan the QR code to watch on YouTube or listen to the conversation wherever you get your podcasts, thank you for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.

[Nicole Wallace]

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