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Deadline: White House
"More questions raised about risks to national security"
00:42:20
An explosive new report in the Washington Post raises more questions about risks to national security -- this time about Bill Pulte’s predecessor, Tulsi Gabbard.
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My guess is, based on his past experience, it's just going to be another
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Nicole Wallace
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I think he's an incompetent sycophant and
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David Rode
not the right person to lead DNI
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Nicole Wallace
Unleash. Thom Tillis is everyone's favorite. Thom Tillis Hi again Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the East. First there was Elon Musk, and now, according to one US Senator you heard there, there's Bill Pulte. The man who is now the nation's acting Director of National Intelligence, who has zero intelligence experience under his bel, is currently cutting jobs at the agency he has led for not even three full days. That is, according to a senior White House official following through on a directive given to him from Donald Trump. Top Democrats on the Senate and House Intelligence committees wrote a letter to Pulte stressing this quote. Given your lack of experience within the intelligence community, it is difficult to imagine that in such a short amount of time, you've already developed fully informed views as to how to shrink ODNI without incurring risks to national security. Meanwhile, an explosive new piece of reporting in the Washington Post to tell you about raising even more questions about risk to national security in this office. Specifically, these are about Pulte's predecessor, Tulsi Gabbard. Washington Post reporter John Swain details his lengthy investigation into Tulsi Gabbard's relationship with a religious leader whom she once described as her guru. The man is named Chris Butler. He led an organization called the Science of Identity. It's a Hare Krishna group, swain reports this quote. Some former members, however, have called the group a cult and said disciples were isolated from the outside world. Characterizations the group denies. Former devotees had been telling me for weeks that Butler controlled his followers major life decisions and demanded total obedience and secrecy. They said that he spent years working to extend his reach into politics. And they suspected Tulsi Gabbard's rise in Washington was the culmination of that effort. Swain's investigation uncovered hundreds of confidential memos that appear to include direction and guidance for Tulsi Gabbard. Quote, some contained instructions on what legislation she should propose, which policies she should embrace, and how she should conduct herself. On television, they had an air of authority. Ms. Now has not independently confirmed the reporting, but it's striking to read Swain's findings and then to watch what's publicly available in terms of how Tulsi Gabbard spoke on television. Quote, an October 12, 2015 memo labeled CNN Wolf Blitzer talking points final contained this language about reports that she had been asked by Democratic leadership not to attend a presidential debate. But quote, it's not a boo hoo. I don't get to go to the party situation, Wolf. And here's what she said to Wolf on CNN that same day. The issue here is not about me saying boo hoo.
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Nicole Wallace
Looks like she took those notes to heart. Swain's reporting is a deeply alarming look into potential ties, connections and motivations of a former member of Congress and until last week, the one person in our country who was put atop 18 US intelligence agencies. The journalist spoke with a former member of this religious group who also worked for Tulsi Gabbard's congressional campaigns. Her name is Rebecca Salzberg. And adds this reporting, quote, the documents, together with Salzberg's explanation of them, raised remarkable questions. Had a reclusive guru been secretly trying to steer Tulsi Gabbard's actions as a public official? And could that shed light on the improbable arc traced by one of the most unconventional shapeshifters in modern American politics? Questions about US national security, as we learn more about the former DNI is where we begin this hour with Washington Post investigative reporter John Swain. Also joining us, former director of the CIA, our senior national security and intelligence analyst, John Brennan, who I'm thought he'd be here fielding questions about the intersection of Hare Krishna gurus and intelligence, but here we are. Director Brennan, John Swain, take me through your reporting.
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John Swain
As you mentioned, this is based on documents provided to me by a former member of Tulsi Gabbard's faith group. Rebecca Salzberg. She worked both for Tulsi Gabbard and for Chris Butler, the guru. She passed to me hundreds of memos which document transcripts of calls between Tulsi Gabbard and an unnamed advisor. This person is always unidentified in these documents, but occasionally he's referred to as he or S sometimes, which we know to be a nickname for Butler within the organisation. And as you mentioned, they contain remarkably direct guidance and directives for what Gabbard should say, what legislation she should propose in the House, talking points for TV appearances that she had. And I went through and compared these memos to what she really did do. And on several occasions, the match is remarkable. There are times when he says, do this the next day, do this tomorrow, and she releases a statement. The following week she proposes a bill. There is also much harsh criticism of Tulsi Gabbard's performance in these memos, often in expletive terms and telling her that she needs to improve her performance. And as you mentioned, there's this air of authority, there's this sense within these documents that the voice behind them has control of what this person does and says.
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Nicole Wallace
What did you. I mean, what is a guru? And what is this, this religious group?
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John Swain
Chris Butler, in the late 1960s, when the Hare Krishna movement first was founded, he joined it in Hawaii. He was a college dropout and he was a sort of charismatic, lean, good speaker, and he built a kind of band of devotees, followers, and over the years that merged together morphed into what's called the Science of Identity foundation. And for decades now, he's run this organization in Hawaii. Tulsi Gabbard's parents were among his devotees in the early 80s when they moved to Hawaii with her as a young child and her siblings. She was raised in it. They all have spiritual alternative names that they use within the organization and, you know, publicly. The Science of Identity foundation and Butler present themselves as being concerned with yoga and with chanting and with matters of spirituality and diet and those sort of things. However, former members tell me and have told other reporters that behind the scenes, there's a different element. There is control, there is dictation of who should marry who and when. There are orders that people have to follow and to work for Butler for free. And as you said at the. In the introduction, several former members have described it as a cult, which the group obviously disputes.
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Nicole Wallace
Did any of your reporting suggest that information flowed in both directions? I mean, is there any need for any sort of examination of whether or not any secrets went the other direction from Tulsi Gabbard to her, her guru.
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John Swain
My reporting didn't find that I, you know, that was obviously a priority to look for whether any kind of classified information or secrets were being transferred the other way. I didn't find that in the documents that we have. There are discussions that she has with this unnamed advisor mentioning non classified matters in congressional committees. However, that kind of material, when I found it, tended to be stuff that was in the news as well. You know, it's important to stress, however, that I don't have a view of all their communications at the time. I have a view of the communications that were shared with iSource. And she is upfront in saying she didn't get everything. She was on Butler's, what she says was called its political team. And yeah, she was shown some documents and not all. So we don't really know the full extent of the relationship.
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Nicole Wallace
What is your analysis of her motives for going public with the relationship between Butler and Gabbard?
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John Swain
We quote her in my piece as saying her reasons are twofold, really. She became very disenchanted with the group and angry and fell out, in fact, with the leadership over completely separate allegations of mishandling, of allegations of abuse. She got into a kind of war of words with the leadership and left them. But she says she's also angry in retrospect, at the public being misled about Tulsi Gabbard's relationship with Chris Butler. Tulsi Gabbard publicly denied that Chris Butler ever politically mentored her. She said that it was, you know, the kind of regular relationship that a member of Congress might have with a rabbi or an imam or a priest, and that it was matters of spirituality and faith. However, Rebecca Salzberg says, and these documents appear to back up, it went far beyond that, far beyond the normal relationship. And this was extensive political direction. And so Rebecca Sulzberg was involved in this and she regrets that. She says, she says at the time she thought she was serving a higher purpose of environmental politics, of anti war activism. You know, Tulsi Gabbitt was known for that. But she says it was wrong and that people deserve to know.
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Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, as a former communications person, you, you don't write talking points for a principal and have them come out their mouth this perfectly, even when that is your job, let alone if your role as someone's spiritual advisor. Let me read a little bit more from your reporting. Thank you for fielding my questions. First, this is on Tulsi parroting a memo given to her in a Fox News appearance. Quote, a January 2015 memo documented an unnamed advisor's proposal to attack John Kerry, then the Secretary of State, for saying violent activity by the Islamic State and Al Qaeda was rooted not in Islam, but in alienation, poverty, thrill seeking and other factors. If that were true, the adviser said sarcastically, the way to deal with terrorists would be to give them a trophy, a big hug, increase their self esteem and give them a good paying job. In a Fox News interview later that day, Tulsi Gabbard repeated the Kerry quote and gave a similar mocking punchline quote. If that's really the cause, then the solution would be to give them a trophy, give them a hug, give them a good paying job, she said. Is there any indication that there was any foreign policy person in these communications as well, or was it really this clear going from guru to Gabbard and out her mouth?
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John Swain
I think that's a really important question. Actually there was the real overlap between Tulsi Gabbard's official stuff and the people around Chris Butler. And it was sometimes difficult to see where the line was drawn between them. One of her congressional chiefs of staff for several years was a member of Chris Butler's group as well, her office manager, sometimes other staff. And Chris Butler's top aide, what they call his secretary, was deeply involved in her day to day congressional activity as well. So there was this real mixture of the congressional staff people working essentially voluntarily from the organization, the Butler Organization, on all sorts of things on foreign policy, on her trip to Syria that was such a source of controversy in 2017. So it's pretty hard to actually separate the two. They were involved in sort of some of the most sensitive things she was involved in Congress.
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Nicole Wallace
I mean, is it your analysis that the positions she took, which are so singular, I mean, she's making excuses for Assad, she's repeating and parroting Putin's talking points, she's making comments that sometimes make her very popular on Fox News, sometimes make her very popular in more libertarian circles. I mean, is, is the ideology emanating from the spiritual practice?
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John Swain
There are many parallels between Tulsi Gabbard's positions and with Chris Butler's long held positions. She, when she initially became a national political figure, had to denounce previous positions that she'd had opposing same sex marriage and abortion to two things that are central to Butler's teachings throughout the years. So it's not as if she always followed lines that he himself had said, but we see in the documents that when she doesn't follow them, there is discussion about the need to maybe stake out a politically advantageous position. And I think one interesting thing that we bring out a little bit in the article is, you know, Tulsi Gabbard's path from being a liberal Democrat, she was a Bernie Sanders ally obviously in 2016, to now being a MAGA favorite and a Donald Trump official. It does have its roots. Some of these documents suggest in this unnamed advisor who our source of service is Chris Butler, being an avid Fox News. Except on men.
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Nicole Wallace
We're going to work on and he
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John Swain
spoke at critique of
- [15:00]
Nicole Wallace
we're going to fix. Go ahead, I can hear you now.
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John Swain
The unnamed advisor is seen in the documents embracing some of Donald Trump's earlier policies, calling out Islamic extremism, which Tulsi Gabbard then made a name for herself in, in repeating as well. So yes, there is a possible explanation here for this strange path Tulsi Gabbard trod from liberal Democrat to MAGA Republican.
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Nicole Wallace
John Brennan, I want to bring you in and I just want to for people that don't know when you go work in the White House as a mid level staffer, as I did when I was 28 years old, your background check is so deep and so involved. And it's not to exploit or penalize any faith. It's not to exploit or penalize anyone's reckless behavior in high school or college. It is to protect US national security. And it seems incomprehensible to me that what was, I mean, what has been reported on in the Washington Post is these are documents that clearly detail a very close ideological and practical relationship, basically a call and response. If you track the documents and the stories with the things said on television, how does this not get swept up in the kind of background checks that anyone working in the federal government at any level would be subjected to?
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It's a great question, Nicole. And as has been spoken about, Tulsi Gabbard's been a bit of a strange bird over the years because she's this political whiplash from, you know, liberal to MAGA world has been, you know, just something of note. But to do a background check, you really want to go into someone's background and the multi year nature of this relationship that is really strange. And it, and it's even more than just people have advisors and counsel, but this is beyond even guru. It's grooming Tulsi, but also it's a puppeteer. It's telling her what to do and what to say. And how to say it, and the fact that she was so responsive to this and the fact that Mr. Butler has this background, this philosophy, this ideology and cult like environment, these are things that should have been surfaced in any type of background check, especially one that for the Director of National Intelligence, this should have been coming up and it should have been a cause for concern because I'm sure that when she was in Congress, her constituents didn't want somebody who was going to be the puppeteer for their representative. And in an administration, you want to make sure you have confidence that what somebody is doing is really a reflection of their own views and actions as opposed to being directed outside. Because who knows what Mr. Butler's connections are, relationships are with people overseas and other intelligence services or whatever. So, again, this is something that should have surfaced in those background checks.
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Nicole Wallace
John Swain, just tell me what you report about your reporting being something she was aware of and Mr. Butler was aware of and the timing of her departure from the Trump administration.
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John Swain
We put questions to Gab Butler and several others around toward the end of March initially and heard nothing from Tosti Gabbard, nothing from Butler. We eventually got some answers from an associate of both of them. But as we closed in on this article finishing toward the end of May. Yes, we put questions to Tulsi Gabbard again and said that we needed responses by Friday that week. And a few hours before that deadline, she announced she was resigning. Now, you know, we don't know if there was any connection. She explained it. She cited that her husband sadly has been diagnosed with a rare cancer and he's receiving treatment. She needed to support him. And there had been rumors that she was on the way out. She clashed with Trump and others in the administration, but the timing is coincidental. Yeah, it's, it's interesting.
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Nicole Wallace
We should just note this quote, Tulsi Gabbard spokespeople have dismissed the investigative journalism as, quote, blatant example of anti Hindu bigotry. End quote. It is worth a read through twice. It is an extraordinary piece of reporting. Having worked in the government and been investigated and had my college freshman year roommates interviewed as part of my background check. It's just an extraordinary sweep of connections and correlations that are really, really, really fascinating. John, thank you for doing the reporting and for starting us off to talk about it. Director Brennan sticks around. When we come back, the other big intelligence story we're following today, what we're learning about the firings underway within the intelligence community at the hands of Donald Trump's believed to be dangerously inexperienced. Acting Director of National Intelligence. Also ahead for us, we're getting our first glimpse of the Kennedy center now that Donald Trump's name has been removed from the building buildings facade. Suffice to say it's an improvement. But over at the Reflecting Pool, things keep getting worse and Trump has an absolutely bonkers new explanation for what's going on over there. Completely devoid of facts or evidence. Trump's imperial makeover, much like his presidency, not going so well. Later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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David Rode
because the ODNI has a lot of people who work every single day keeping Americans safe and secure. And so if he just starts willy nilly firing people, it is going to increase the probability that there is a terrorist attack inside the United States. It's going to increase the ability of cartel people to move fentanyl and weapons into the United States. So that's, that's what the stakes are here.
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Nicole Wallace
That was House Intelligence Committee ranking member Jim Himes on the consequences of the firings underway right now at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. I want to bring into our coverage senior national security reporter David Rode. Director Brennan is still here. David, just tell me what your reporting suggests about the sort of scope of the firings underway.
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David Rode
The reporting I have so far is that no one really knows what's happening in, you know, the top office in the intelligence community for the United States right now. I've talked to former officials, I've talked to members of Congress. I've tried to reach out to the office itself and gotten no reply. We did get earlier today, Jake Traylor, our White House correspondent, got that the White House was confirming that firings had begun there. But which offices, how many people is very unclear. There is a suspicion, as you mentioned earlier, that there would be layoffs at the National Counterterrorism Center. Representative Himes, who you mentioned, said that's a very, that's a bad place to cut and that that's a center where they just monitor threats to the United States and trying to combine all the information coming into the different intelligence agencies, the 18 of them, and then corroborate all that and try to work to respond it and to most of all to stop threats. But I just want to be honest, no one seems to have a good sense of what is happening now inside the office.
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Nicole Wallace
I mean, Director Brennan, if that's true, that is the absolute dumbest thing to do. If you have any intention of being a president who wants to look at the American people and say you're trying to protect them, I mean, that's also the office, I mean, you know better than anyone that communicates with state and local law enforcement. Explain the stakes.
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Well, the stakes are very high. I mean, first of all, it's asinine to think that someone like a Bill Pulte with absolutely no background in intelligence going to go in there and start firing people, as Jim Himes said, Willy nilly. And the Office of Director of National Intelligence, you know, has the National Counterterrorism center, the National Counter Proliferation Center, National Intelligence Council. These are individual and experts as well as the technical people who keep a lot of the systems up and running and are the ones who are supposed to be orchestrating the work of the 18 intelligence agencies. So it's dumb. It's dangerous. At a time when we're facing challenges in the Persian Gulf with Iran and Russia, Ukraine, the terrorism threat that continues to exist and to take away that capability that was put together after the 911 attacks, again is just foolish, but also is heartless because if they're firing people, these are American civilians, citizens, public servants who have dedicated their lives and gone through the security clearances that apparently Tulsi Gabbard didn't go through thoroughly, who frequently have relocated from different parts of this country to try to contribute to our national security. So on so many fronts, this is something that should never have happened. And I think Thom Tillis comments about it are exactly right. This is a repeat of Doge that is just unfortunately not doing things in a thoughtful, careful manner. This is thoughtless, it's reckless, and again, it's dangerous.
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Nicole Wallace
I mean, David Rode, let me try to drill down on willy nilly, since it's the most specific information we have about the firings believed to be underway. Nothing has been willy nilly right. All the firings, all the retribution has been directed at two things, either perceived political enemies or people who ferret out the truth, and the intelligence communities. The people who ferret out the truth are the very people who are identifying threats to our country. That's a very dangerous group to target. I mean, what, you know, what Trump has said publicly is that he's going in there to investigate, quote, rigged elections. He's only there sort of in a peak, a fit that Trump threw after he canceled Jay Clayton's confirmation. I mean, just talk about some of the atmospherics around this arrival at odni.
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David Rode
I think that the thing we've seen over the years with intelligence and national security is that it's, it's critical to have career workers who are experts in intelligence. You were talking earlier about all the different things these 18 agencies do. There are experts in the CIA and across the government, but these are experts in nuclear non proliferation, Iran and its politics and its economy, literally China, what it's doing and it's trying to and then extremist groups, you know, what are their different efforts to have attacks here. And all these specialists are being fired potentially because the president's decided and this is the public reason that it's a bloated office, particularly the National Counterterrorism Center. And so it's, it doesn't make much sense. And then separately we have there were bad things done by the CIA during the Cold War. So there's two powerful oversight committees that Director Brennan dealt with. They don't know all the secrets, but Their job, they were created in the 1970s to see what's happening inside these agencies. Is the NSA spying on Americans? It's, it's their job. It's Jim Himes job. It's ranking Democrat. Senator Warner is the ranking Democrat on the Senate side. And I'm hearing from staffers on the oversight committees. They don't know what's happening there. Phone calls are being made to the director, you know, the odni, and they can't get people to answer their phones. And this is a co. Equal branch of government that should know what's happening to staff there, and it's just not known. So I don't know exactly what's driving it, but I, I just. It doesn't make any sense to me how this is somehow improving national security. Maybe the office needs reform, maybe it should shrink. But Bill Pulte hasn't worked there. Maybe he's worked there for two days. He doesn't know who any of these people that are being fired, he isn't evaluating their performance. He's not looking at the structures of offices and deciding what can shrink. He seems to be trying to hit a number that will please President Trump.
- [28:41]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Director Brennan, how do we know it's even about a number, right? I mean, and what sort of clearance could Bill Pulte have? I mean, doesn't it take months to do the kind of background check that you need to run an office like this?
- [28:56]
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Well, yes, it does for most people, but I'm sure it was just expedited and given to him without any type of real serious and thorough background investigation. That was done. But again, to David's point, what the Office of Director of National Intelligence does is critically important for the rest of the National Counterterrorism center maintains what's called a terrorist screening database, where you have all the names of individuals who are on the no fly list. And the agencies in the intelligence community rely on a very robust, reliable and quality database. And that's what the NCTC does, as well as the other elements within the odni. So, again, the need to orchestrate the work of these 18 intelligence agencies is so important. And I agree with David. Yes, you can review, you can reform, you can even slim down the NCTC and the odni, but you don't do it with somebody who is just thrust and parachuted in there without any understanding of the intelligence community mission and the work that it does that's so critical to every single American citizen.
- [29:56]
Nicole Wallace
It's pretty amazing. When we were trying to decide which intelligence story was scarier? It was sort of this bizarre Sophie's Choice, right? Tulsi Gabbard potentially under the influence of a guru or Bill Pulte making quote, willy nilly cuts, according to the ranking member of House Intel. We'll stay on top of both of them. David, I would ask you if you learn anything in the next 28 minutes, just wave your arms and we'll get you right back on television. Director Brennan, you to stay close to a camera. Thank you for joining us today. When we come back, the no big contracts, the self aggrandizing, the corruption. Donald Trump's extreme DC Makeover, much like his presidency, doesn't look so great these days. And his explanation of why it's gone so awry is more and more farcical and unhinged. We'll bring you up to date on all of that next.
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News Commentator
people on the reflecting floor. So the reflecting pool looks fantastic. I just got pictures of it. It's beautiful. But somebody went in with a knife and cut it. They cut it up Good. And then they cut a 200, 350 foot slip in the form of lots of little slips. A real horrible sub. Probably a box cutter or a knife of some kind. Or we had people lifting up the basic. Some of the. I have a better product now. I can't help it if somebody goes in with a knife and starts hacking it up. And we also have pictures of it. You know, we have.
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Nicole Wallace
Can you release the photos?
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News Commentator
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- [33:06]
Nicole Wallace
A box cutter cut of the blue lining. There's no evidence that that is remotely true. But fail in public and deflect, shift the blame, offer a delusional, unhinged explanation that is so wild it requires evidence, and then refuse to provide any evidence and say, oh, later in court. If that doesn't absolutely encapsulate Trump's second term as president and the colossal failures of everything he has touched, including his multi billion dollar taxpayer funded, ego driven. The size of my arch is bigger than your arch effort to reshape the nation's capital. Then the pictures might help. Just two weeks after the completion of Trump's rushed renovations, the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool will now likely require repairs as embarrassing images show the return of the algae he keeps promising to banish. His $14 million pool liner now floats in chunks without any evidence to support his box cutter explanation or the autocratic sty arrests of American citizens, people he again without any evidence describes as, quote, vandals. In the last few minutes, the New York Times has reported that internal documents show no indication that the problems were caused intentionally. And the Trump administration knows that from that reporting. Quote, government documents obtained by the New York Times show that while National Park Service workers found two cuts in sections of foam between the pool's expansion joints, those were not directly related to the American flag blue coating that is now peeling or to the algae that has turned the pool a bright shade of green. End quote. We also have our first look at the Kennedy center after Cruz removed Donald Trump's name from it. His name was illegally added to the facade of the Kennedy center last year. It's something that Trump clearly doesn't want us to see. These images obtained by msnow, were taken from above the tarp covered scaffolding that has blocked the public's view of the Kennedy center for nine days. Now. I want to bring in staff writer at the Atlantic video podcast host David Fromm. Also joining us, writer and editor for Protect Democracy, Amanda Carpenter is back. Amanda we talked about this yesterday. We needed you back today for these updates. The evidence that keeps coming in from documents and career of government workers sort of grows wider and wider, you know, diverges more widely from the fantastical and farcical things Trump is saying. We now have box cutters being used in his description and photos that he will hold on to until this case is in court.
- [35:53]
Amanda Carpenter
Yeah, wait another two weeks. When have we heard that one before? I mean, there's been a lot of commentary. That is correct, right? About how this is emblematic of everything that's wrong with the Trump era. He makes outlandish promises that he can't make good on. People tell him this will go badly, and here is why. He ignores it, it turns out horribly. And instead of taking any accountability, he lashes out at people. He creates enemies out of thin air, and he abuses any power that he can get his hands on to wield his punishment against people that he wants to skate.
- [36:24]
News Commentator
Go.
- [36:25]
Amanda Carpenter
I mean, you could pretty much apply that formula to any situation. And it's a particularly, like, egregious here because this is a national monument. It is a treasure. People are there all the time. He's a tree. And telling this story about how people are going, what, in the middle of the night, like, stabbing the pool and 100 wide cuts in a place where they would have been detected. Like, you don't even have to find evidence because everyone is there all the time. It is a tourist spot, is a gathering place that is constantly monitored. But put that aside, because the thing that really gets me is, like, I drive through D.C. all the time, as I'm sure David does. You know, all of your viewers probably been there to these sites. When you go there now, you come in, you see his name slapped on the Kennedy Center. You see how he's wrecked the reflecting pool. You drive down the street, and then you see the UFC claw in front of the White House and how the grounds there are destroyed. And you see the East Ballroom, the destruction from the construction that's coming there. You go down to the federal buildings, you see his banners on it. I mean, he has taken over our nation's capital like it's the imperial City. And, like, I just look around and it feels like we're just the frogs being boiled alive in this green autocratic swamp. Because none of this belongs to him. No one gave him permission to do any of this. It is an abuse of power. It's corruption, and it's turning out predictably, horribly. And we need to make him and his enablers own the consequences of
- [37:55]
Nicole Wallace
is a punchline. I mean, Jon Stewart had some fun with it. It is deeply unpopular of Americans disapprove of his handling of the economy, for example. It is though also this slow boiling of the frog. I mean, he is vandalizing Washington D.C. and no one seems to be able to stop him.
- [38:16]
VGW Group Disclaimer
David, from so so three points on this. The first is, okay, obviously the president is totally lying about the box cutter, but let's look at the lie a little more closely. I live in Washington D.C. city has been under military occupation for months. There are soldiers at the yacht basin. There are soldiers at the Gucci store. The soldiers whom Trump assigned to protect the city from. What does he think he's protecting it from? Antifa, Black Lives Matter? Whoever he thinks the danger is, they didn't protect the Lincoln Memorial. His soldiers whom he sent in front of the Gucci store in the yacht basin. His soldiers were not on duty at the Lincoln Memorial. So if the story is true, that's on him. That's not on the vandals. Second, it's important to understand a sinister aspect of the president's insistence that vandals did this. You know, the taxpayer paid tens of millions of dollars for this unwanted, unnecessary improvisation that Trump did, but the contractor obviously did a bad job. Normally, the taxpayer would, through the government would bring lawsuit against the bad contractor to recover some of the money that has been wasted and that the contractor who was not a proper contractor, it looks like a Trump crony misappropriated for doing a bad job. Every time Trump opens his mouth to blame the imaginary antifa or Black Lives Matter or whoever he thinks did it, he's letting his crony friend, the contractor, off the hook and giving him a defense at what ought to be a lawsuit brought by the government against the contractor to get the tax money back for a job badly done. Last point. The Constitution clearly assigns authority over the District of Columbia and all federal real estate holdings to Congress, not the president. The president not only is abusing his power as a Democratic leader, he's honestly intruding on a congressional prerogative. It's Congress that controls every every square foot. Where Trump's putting his grimy fingerprints, that's congressional land he can't just put up. It's not like there's some loophole that allows him to put up that arc to Trump. Now at the White House, Congress has, as a matter of comedy, delegated a lot of authority to the president. And so he's got some statutory powers and some regulatory powers and Some traditional powers that he could use to ransack, vandalize the East Wing. But everywhere else, he's clearly offside. And the idea that Congress has at this point not said, you know what, that's congressional land. That's public land protected by Congress, run by Congress. Get your stupid arch plans down and let's have the commit the people that Congress assigned to make these decisions make these decisions.
- [40:49]
Nicole Wallace
It's also so easy to understand, right? I mean, like anyone who's had their house TP'd understands the destruction of property. Your point is so true. Like he's shown that there are no limits to policing Washington, D.C. he brags about it all the time, but he can't police and protect his American flag blue pool liner that's so cheap and tacky, it didn't last a week. It all just really tests the power and the grip of his sort of cult like popularity with his most committed members of his own base. I need both of you to stick around. There's more on this story. I want to bring up the polls. I want to show you some of the great reporting Atlantic and I'll show you that Jon Stewart clip. Don't go anywhere. We're back with David and Amanda. I mean, Amanda, to your point, DC Makes means something not just to the people who live there, but the people who visit it. And I didn't have that Jon Stewart clip ready, but to become the butt of the jokes, this one isn't just about Trump. This one lands differently. This one embarrasses all Americans.
- [41:59]
Amanda Carpenter
Yeah, I mean these monuments are for everyone. They're tourist sites where everybody can go to get close and feel and touch the monuments. I mean, the fact that people occasionally dip their hand in the water, that's a common occurrence. I mean, there's some fountains. You know, if you go up to The World War II memorial, which is just up from the reflecting pool, you'll see kids with their feet in it all the time. And now because of Trump's colossal mistake, self inflicted, that he did to himself, there's going to be tourists crawling all over the place on July 4th. And God forbid a kid stick their feet in the water there. And then the National Guard rolls up to arrest the family. I mean, right now you have people just going up there to see what it's like and getting arrested. And yeah, the charges probably won't pan out, but that's humiliating. It's scary. They're being held for hours for no reason other than protecting the President's inflated narrative about vandals destroying the fucking pool.
- [42:59]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, David from. It feels like we're just searching for the bottom and the story only goes one direction, down, down, down to the insipid, to the, the stupid, to the inane. And this story seems to encapsulate all that, but I have no confidence that we've reached the bottom. What happens next?
- [43:17]
VGW Group Disclaimer
Well, the story is linked to another story lurking in the background that isn't funny at all, which is that the United States just lost a war and is negotiating a humiliating and disgraceful and disadvantageous piece for exactly the same reasons that this reflecting pool fiasco happened. Not thinking things through, not listening to expertise and not taking into account all the possibilities and then pretending everything is fine and then lying about it afterwards and finding somebody to blame. It's the same behavior. In one case, the upshot is expensive and embarrassing, a little funny. In the other case, it's just a disaster and a shame.
- [43:54]
Nicole Wallace
And it is the story that we will come together and talk through until it, until voters throw them out, until people demand something better. David from Amanda Carter. Thank you both for joining me today. From the ridiculous to the deadly serious. Thank you. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast is Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Pablo Torre. He really could make any story interesting to me, but take a listen to what he told me about covering sports during the time of Donald Trump.
- [44:31]
Pablo Torre
We're in like the smash and grab, like, you know, era of this. I've, I've thought of, frankly, the White House, kind of like a spirit Halloween store after Halloween. It's like this isn't gonna last much longer, we're pretty sure. But there's some stuff in the back you might want to sell. So let's get some of the weird stuff out of here. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's a level of sort of like desperation that is undergirding all of this. It feels that way at least. And I hope that there's a time limit on this. But look, what do you do as a response to this? You don't cede sports as this cultural territory. I mean, there are ways to be credibly, credibly right, persuasively American that only require you to enjoy watching the game. And what does that unlock? Right? Why do I start with that very simple premise? It's because once that happens, when there is a news cycle like the New York Knicks or like what's happening in the World cup or a UFC event. Right? You too can be in the conversation. And you too. I mean, this is my theory of why I do the journalism I do. It's that I started off with a love of sports, but I've considered like, should I pivot away? Because I have these other interests and I've continually been astounded by how sports is the cheese I can melt on the broccoli of all of this other stuff.
- [45:59]
Nicole Wallace
And who doesn't need cheese on their broccoli? You can watch the entire conversation. Pablo is so smart about everything. You just scan the QR code on your screen or listen by downloading the best people wherever you get your podcasts. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.
- [46:18]
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