Deadline: White House – “Moving the goalpost”

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: December 2, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of "Deadline: White House" with Nicolle Wallace focuses on the escalating fallout from a lethal U.S. military strike in the Caribbean that killed survivors of an alleged drug trafficking boat. The episode dissects new reporting on Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth’s role, the Trump administration's attempts to deflect responsibility, and the broader implications for military and civilian ethics, accountability, and the rule of law. Wallace is joined by retired Major General Stephen Leeper, providing legal analysis, and Rachel Maddow, who parallels the current events with American historical injustices and discusses her new podcast “Burn Order.”

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Caribbean Strike Controversy

• Background: U.S. Forces targeted a boat in the Caribbean suspected of drug trafficking, leading to the deaths of survivors after the initial strike—an act many legal and military experts label a potential war crime.

• Administration’s Justification: Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth frames the action as "deterrence," dismissing traditional approaches of arresting and prosecuting suspects (01:36). Hegseth claims continuous support for field commanders and asserts the necessity of strong actions.

  • Quote (Pete Hegseth):
    "Deterrence has to matter, not arrest and hand over and then do it again. The rinse and repeat approach of previous administrations." (01:36)

• Military Backlash: Reporting reveals anger within the Defense Department, particularly at efforts to shift blame downward to Admiral Frank Bradley, who oversaw the strike.

  • Quote (Unnamed Military Official):
    "This is protect Pete Bullbleep." — on attempts to shield Hegseth (03:01).
  • Quote (Unnamed Official):
    "It is throwing us, the service members, under the bus." (03:05)

2. Legal and Ethical Analysis

• Role of Orders: Major General Stephen Leeper explains that the “kill everyone” directive, if given or interpreted as such, is illegal under military law—particularly once survivors become defenseless in the water.
  • Quote (Leeper):
    "When you're involved in military operation, there is fog of war, as the Secretary said. But the law is still the law. The law doesn't change whether or not there's fog obstructing it… folks in the water are defenseless, and attacking them is indefensible." (08:17)
• Responsibility to Disobey: Military doctrine requires officers to refuse unlawful orders, especially orders mandating no survivors.
  • Quote (Leeper):
    "If any of those were present in that situation, our duty is to protect them under the law, not continue to target them." (10:01)
• Need for Investigation: With video evidence and live feeds available, Leeper emphasizes the urgent need for a thorough Congressional investigation to ensure accountability at all levels, from Secretary Hegseth to the strike team.
  • Quote:
    "Congress has agreed to investigate this. ... At some point, if Congress fails to investigate this...an investigation of that sort will have to occur as well." (12:10)

[Key Segment: 08:17–13:15]

3. Rachel Maddow’s Analysis & Historical Parallels

• Questioning the War & Administrative Motives: Maddow critiques the administration’s apparent lack of justification for military action in Venezuela and suggests that the war was reverse-engineered to justify harsh immigration enforcement using the Alien Enemies Act.
  • Quote (Maddow):
    "My sense is they wanted to use the Alien Enemies Act to illegally deport people... decided the Act was a way to do that... [so] they declared a war... then reverse engineered some sort of reason for the war." (13:44)
• Bureaucratic and Legal Breakdown: Maddow underscores the tragedy of good officers being pressured to carry out or be blamed for illegal actions.
  • Quote:
    "I’m less worried about the fate of the bad guys who have gotten us here than I am about the good people who've been put in the way of this mess... from Admiral Bradley on down. And it's a catastrophe." (16:29)
• On Trump’s Approach to Military and Power: Both Wallace and Maddow reflect on the Trump administration’s ongoing attempts to use the military extralegally and undermine internal discipline.
  • Quote (Maddow):
    "He wants unified command over everybody who has a gun. He wants them all answerable to him, and he wants to be able to use them without restraint." (18:32)
  • Maddow: "Once the US Military is seen as a tool like that... the distinction between us becoming a dictatorship and us remaining a republic is whether or not there is internal discipline and ethics." (18:32)

[Key Segment: 13:44–22:36]

4. Whistleblowers, Resignations, and Leaks

• Internal Resistance & The Leak: Maddow theorizes that the leaks to the press are the product of significant internal dissent, resignations, and resistance within the military and legal corps, including the sidelining of senior legal officers who raised concerns.
  • Quote (Maddow):
    "When you're asking people to do something that wrong and they know it's wrong and they're pushing back and it's ending careers... it's going to come out." (20:59)

5. Contemporary Parallels: Forced Detentions and Deportations

• Ongoing ICE Raids: The episode highlights the chillingly routine federal raids and deportations taking place across the country, often targeting long-time residents and even military families. (24:16–25:59)
• Historical Echoes: Wallace and Maddow draw tight parallels to historical injustices—specifically the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II, which is the focus of Maddow’s new podcast “Burn Order.” Maddow points out the same detention facilities are being repurposed, and the same logic used to justify racist government action.
  • Quote (Maddow):
    "Once again we've got hastily built mass detention facilities… Federal agents grabbing men, women, children, babies, elderly people, pregnant women… supported by lies about them and how terrible they are… The parallels are incredible. Literally to the point where they're using the same facilities to lock people up." (32:52)
• On Resistance: Both highlight the role of small acts of protest and whistleblowing in ultimately bringing justice or at least historical reckoning.
  • Quote (Maddow):
    "There's all sorts of different ways to fight it... you never know exactly when they are going to pay off. ... the reason our country apologized... and paid reparations... is because of Japanese Americans who never let them get away with it." (29:21)
  • Quote (Maddow):
    "History will not let them off the hook and it'll be made right in the end." (29:21)

[Key Segment: 24:16–34:18]

6. History, Propaganda & Public Opinion

• Historical Parallels and Propaganda: Burn Order recounts how government actors manufactured false narratives to justify the internment of Japanese Americans, despite intelligence community opposition and lack of evidence.
  • Quote (Maddow):
    "If you're going to do something truly radical... you need to tell people incredible fairy tales about how dangerous and terrible these people are." (36:29)
• Media, Protest, and Change: The hosts emphasize the increased visibility and protest of government abuses compared to past eras, expressing hope that awareness and internal pushback will make a difference.
• On Public Opinion and Authoritarianism: Maddow notes Trump’s eroding approval ratings and asserts that public opinion is ultimately the greatest threat to autocratic ambitions.
  • Quote (Maddow):
    "Autocrats everywhere know that the thing that gets them in the end is public opinion, and... if the country’s against you, you can't last long by force alone." (42:10)
• Military's Ethical Line: Maddow claims today’s military will resist illegal orders, marking the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship.
  • Quote:
    "The United States military is not going to go down the road that Trump wants them to go. ... They are not going to allow themselves to become the instrument of a dictator." (42:58)

[Key Segment: 36:14–43:15]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Major General Leeper (on legal duty):
  "An unlawful order... is killing survivors in a shipwreck. Someone along the way should have recognized that was an unlawful order and disobeyed it, or at least questioned it..." (11:00)
• Rachel Maddow (on accountability):
  "History will not let them off the hook... and they will be happy in the long run if they get on the right side of it now rather than waiting to be caught out, because they will get caught." (29:21)
• Nicolle Wallace (on the military and Trump):
  "If this is what’s public facing, what is the mountain of questions about what's happened to the military in these 12 months?" (18:08)
• Rachel Maddow (on military independence):
  "All eyes have to shift to the internal ethos and discipline of the US Military. Will you allow yourselves to be used this way?... that ultimately may be the distinction between us becoming a dictatorship and us remaining a republic." (18:32)

Additional Segments

Discussion of Maddow’s Podcast “Burn Order”

• Explores the forced relocation of Japanese Americans, how the government covered up the lack of evidence, and how protest was rare but meaningful.
• Parallels between past and present abuses highlight the cyclical nature of scapegoating and the importance of vigilance and resistance.

Trump’s Online Activity & Cabinet Drift

• Briefly covers Donald Trump’s late-night deluge of social media posts, including bizarre claims and attacks, while senior officials actively meet abroad, raising concerns about presidential conduct and the delegation of critical responsibilities. (45:25–47:20)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:36] – Hegseth’s “deterrence” quote; start of segment on military directives
• [08:17] – Leeper on legality and military obligation
• [13:44] – Maddow’s analysis of administration’s motives for war and deportation
• [18:32] – Maddow on military, authoritarianism, and internal discipline
• [20:59] – Maddow on internal resistance and leaks
• [24:16] – Contemporary ICE raids & historical echoes
• [29:21] – Burn Order: on resistance
• [36:14] – Manufactured propaganda and internment of Japanese Americans
• [42:10] – Maddow on public opinion as a check on autocracy
• [42:58] – Maddow on the military’s refusal to be a dictator’s tool

Conclusion

“Moving the goalpost” is a sobering, incisive exploration of American democratic norms under pressure. Through legal analysis, investigative reporting, and historical reflection, Nicolle Wallace and her guests dissect how the current administration's decision-making on the military strike in the Caribbean exposes deeper fractures in law, ethics, and institutional resistance. Drawing powerful parallels to America’s darkest chapters, the episode is both a warning and a reminder—of the importance of accountability, historical memory, and the moral courage required to prevent history from repeating itself.