“Naked callousness and public indifference”

Summary

Deadline: White House – Episode Summary Title: Naked Callousness and Public Indifference
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC
Release Date: June 25, 2025

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1. Republicans' Medicaid Cuts and Mitch McConnell's Comments

The episode opens with Chris Hayes addressing the escalating tension surrounding the Republican-led efforts to implement significant Medicaid cuts. Central to this discussion is a controversial statement by former Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, who remarked in a closed-door Senate Republican meeting, “Failure isn't an option” and “they'll get over it” when referring to the impending Medicaid reductions (01:06).

2. Public Impact and Polling on Medicaid

Chris Hayes highlights the broad reliance Americans have on Medicaid:

• “69% of all Americans say that someone close to them has used Medicaid at some point in their lives.” (01:25)
• “56% of all Americans say that either they or a family member have been on Medicaid.” (01:40)

These statistics underscore the personal impact of the proposed cuts, contradicting McConnell's portrayal of affected individuals as mere "able-bodied Americans who should be working."

3. Panel Discussion: Analyzing Republican Stance

Joined by Sarah Longwell (Publisher of The Bulwark), Tim Miller (Host of the Focus Group Podcast), and Basil Smikle (MSNBC Political Analyst), the panel delves into the implications of the Medicaid cuts:

• Sarah Longwell emphasizes the bipartisan dependency on Medicaid:

  “Medicaid is a means-tested program which means if you get it, you need it... Republicans are going to be affected by this on election day in the next several years.” (06:08)

• Basil Smikle points out the political backlash within the GOP:

  “Thom Tillis is absolutely right. It's a political boondoggle and then an eventual something that could be catastrophic for them.” (12:07)

The panel discusses internal Republican conflicts, noting concerns from vulnerable senators like Thom Tillis about the electoral repercussions of the Medicaid cuts.

4. Public Protests and Legislative Challenges

The episode covers recent protests at the Russell Senate Office Building, where demonstrators decried the Big Beautiful Bill's impact on healthcare. Tim Miller shares a personal anecdote about the complexities of Medicaid requalification:

“When my daughter was alive, I got to experience how difficult that is... It is not simple.” (03:18)

Chris Hayes underscores the low approval ratings of the bill:

“The bill has a 38% approval rating, almost 60% oppose it.” (10:57)

5. Introducing "Home of the Brave" Campaign

Sarah Longwell introduces a new initiative, Home of the Brave, aimed at amplifying the voices of Americans affected by Trump administration policies. The campaign encourages individuals to share their personal stories to counteract the administration's narrative and foster resilience within the pro-democracy movement.

6. Zoran Mamdani's Historic Mayoral Victory in New York City

The episode highlights a significant political upset in New York City, where Zoran Mamdani, a 33-year-old Democratic Socialist, emerged victorious against long-standing political figures. Nicole Wallace praises Mamdani's campaign strategy:

“He walked the entire length of Manhattan... Be authentically yourself, be optimistic, be a politician for the people.” (39:18)

7. U.S. Strikes on Iranian Nuclear Facilities: Conflicting Intelligence

A substantial portion of the episode examines the aftermath of the U.S. military strikes on Iran's nuclear program. Chris Hayes and Tim Miller discuss the contradictory intelligence reports, with President Trump declaring the program “obliterated”, while leaked documents suggest otherwise. Tim Miller criticizes the administration's handling of the situation:

“They are lying about battle damage assessments... This is who they are.” (73:21)

John Ratcliffe, CIA Director, provided a nuanced statement:

“CIA can confirm that a body of credible intelligence indicates Iran's nuclear program has been severely damaged...” (68:33)

8. DOJ and Emil Bovey's Controversial Confirmation Hearing

The episode concludes with a deep dive into the Department of Justice and the contentious confirmation hearing of Emil Bovey, Trump's nominee for the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. Mark Elias and Christy Greenberg analyze Bovey's defense against accusations of instructing DOJ lawyers to ignore court orders:

• Basil Smikle remarks on Bovey's evasive responses:

  “He was shifting and not really answering... It would warrant an investigation.” (83:22)

• Nicole Wallace criticizes the blending of White House and DOJ responsibilities:

  “There is a complete merging of the two... This is going to be the first court of appeals judge... But it's not gonna be the last.” (88:46)

Tim Miller underscores the erosion of the rule of law:

“They are destroying democracy together... Congress needs to hold them accountable.” (59:07)

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Notable Quotes

• Sarah Longwell (06:08):

  “Medicaid is a means-tested program which means if you get it, you need it... Republicans are going to be affected by this on election day in the next several years.”

• Mitch McConnell (01:06):

  “Failure isn't an option... they'll get over it.”

• Basil Smikle (12:07):

  “Thom Tillis is absolutely right. It's a political boondoggle and then an eventual something that could be catastrophic for them.”

• Tim Miller (73:21):

  “They are lying about battle damage assessments... This is who they are.”

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Conclusion

In this episode of Deadline: White House, Nicolle Wallace and her panel dissect the Republican Party's Medicaid cuts, internal conflicts, and the broader implications for American healthcare and democracy. Concurrently, they explore significant political shifts, such as Zoran Mamdani's mayoral victory, and scrutinize contentious developments within the Trump administration's foreign and domestic policies. The discussions highlight a growing public resistance against policies perceived as indifferent to constituent suffering and underscore the critical role of grassroots movements in shaping political discourse.

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments have been excluded from this summary to focus solely on the episode's substantive discussions.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Chris Hayes]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the east. From the party that brought you well we're all going to die comes quote they'll get over it. Republicans doubling and tripling down today on their naked callousness and public indifference to the suffering of their own constituents. Also, that Donald Trump can do a victory lap in the now bulldozed Rose Garden. That, quote, they'll get over it comes from none other than former Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell. Unlike Senator Joni Ernst's grim and dismissive response to her own constituent's face, she's the one that said we're all going to die. McConnell was talking about the same thing, those massive cuts to Medicaid. Punchbowl News reports that Mitch McConnell's comment happened in a closed door meeting of the Senate Republican C.A. mcConnell said regarding Trump's so called big beautiful bill, this quote, failure isn't an option. Quote, I know a lot of us are hearing from people back home about Medicaid, but they'll get over it. It is worth noting that Medicaid isn't some obscure opt in optional program. According to one poll, 69% of all Americans say that someone close to them has used Medicaid at some point in their lives. They 56% of all Americans say that either they or a family member have at some point been on Medicaid been covered by Medicaid. In a statement, a spokesperson for Mitch McConnell said the senator was talking about, quote, the people who are abusing Medicaid, the able bodied Americans who should be working, end quote. It's not exactly a denial of what he said. If anything. The statement implies that McConnell believes that people affected by cuts to Medicaid are some massive pool of 16 million freeloaders who choose not to work and will, in his words, his quote, get over it. Perhaps he should say that to the people who have appeared at town hall meetings in every corner of our country expressing genuine fear and frustration and anger over Trump's legislative agenda. Moments like these.

[Tim Miller]

Another personal observation about the requalification or re filing for Medicaid going to be twice a year under this bill. When my daughter was alive, I got to experience how difficult that is. And it causes a lot of personal heartache and headache. It is not simple. And for a lot of folks, it is just isn't simple.

[Basil Smikle]

21% of Iowans are on Medicaid and.

[Tim Miller]

Our rural hospital in Jefferson county health.

[Basil Smikle]

Center drives 14% of its patient revenue from Medicaid.

[Tim Miller]

Will you vote for a reconciliation bill.

[Chris Hayes]

That damages the health of Iowans and.

[Basil Smikle]

Makes health care less accessible?

[Chris Hayes]

When you are arguing about illegals that are receiving Medicaid benefits, 1.4 million, 1.4. They're not, they are not eligible. So they will be coming off. So we people are not well, we all are going to die. So for heaven's sakes, for heaven's sakes, folks, today's Republican Party folks, that is who they are. But what makes Mitch McConnell's indifference to the response from his own voters fear and anger of actual Republican voters is that at the same meeting where he said that North Carolina Republican Thom Tillis was warning his colleagues that gutting Medicaid is a political disaster for him and the entire gop. Punchbowl News reports that Tillis, arguably one of the most vulnerable Republicans up for election next year, passed around a flyer to his colleagues in which he, quote, warned GOP senators that Republicans will suffer major electoral losses in 2026 if the Senate's Medicaid provide framework becomes law. That's according to three Republican senators. Tillis compared it to the Obamacare backlash that hampered Democrats a decade ago. He's referring to the red wave after the passage of the Affordable Care Act. Democrats lost more than 60 seats in the House in electoral wipeout at the time. It's where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. Publisher of the Bulwark, host of the focus group podcast Sarah Longwell is here. Also joining us, MSNBC political analyst, host of the Bulwark podcast, Tim Miller is here. And Democrats Democratic strategist and professor at Columbia University, MSNBC political analyst Basil Smikles here. Basil, I'M going to start with you because I'm guessing you're the least surprised that Mitch McConnell doesn't give a. You know what and thinks people will somehow get over. 16 million people in America are going to just, quote, get over not having health care suddenly your thoughts?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, get over. I mean, I can't fathom how leaders in this country could be so. Well, maybe I can't fathom how leaders in this country could be so blind to what their constituents are. Medicaid is a means tested program which means if you get it, you need it. And so, you know, for all of these people who would be so adversely affected, and you've heard about that being called, you've heard it being called out in these town halls, it's just unfathomable that there are leaders that would just literally turn a blind eye to it. I do a lot of work with young people. Medicaid impacts children as well. This isn't just, this isn't older adults who are expected to work as a part of the proposal in this sort of work fair type environment. This also affects young people, young people with disabilities, young people who rely on Medicaid to get mental health services, something that we've been talking so much about in the last few months and years. And just think about how those students who are growing up in an environment where mass shootings in school buildings are part of their daily lives and they are now having to potentially have to deal with that without the support that Medicaid can provide to engage their mental illnesses that arise from this or any kind of depression that may arise from this. So when you think about the kind of infrastructure that these programs fund and that voters rely upon to have daily services that in their normal lives they may not even think exist moment to moment, but absolutely rely on the cutting of these programs, the withdrawal from that kind of support will have such a detrimental and far reaching effect on the lives of Americans. I have no doubt that Republicans are going to be affected by this on election day in the next several years.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, I mean, Sarah, there's no partisan difference in the households that benefit from Medicaid. It's 62% identify as Republican. 62% of self identified Democratic households or voters have someone in their household who has been on Medicaid or benefited from Medicaid. There's no partisan difference in the recipient of health care. The difference is in the callousness and the way Mitch McConnell talks about people, quote, getting over 16 million people in our country, according to the CBO, will lose access to health care through Medicaid. Mitch McConnell used to be the guy who cared about that. And Tom Tillis in this, in these are always tarantulas in a bowl. And then we're talking about Republican infighting. But Thom Tillis is the one who is correct on this. It'll be an elect devastating electorally.

[Basil Smikle]

Look, this bill is already extremely unpopular. And I think that one of the only things that could make it even more unpopular is for Mitch McConnell to become one of its big champions, because voters hate Mitch McConnell like Republican voters hate Mitch McConnell. And I listen to them in focus groups. Every time you bring up Mitch McConnell, you are met with complete and total derision. And one of the reasons that Donald Trump was able to sort of become politically popular in a party that had previously been Mitch McConnell's is that he made it clear that he was going to be a populist president who, who was going to sort of preserve a lot of these social programs. He was going to be a different type of Republican. Now, for a lot of traditional Republicans, that was a bad thing. But for a lot of voters, it remade the Republican coalition. And a lot of the voters who are now part of this magnified Trump coalition, they hate Mitch McConnell and they like their social programs and they thought that Donald Trump was going to keep a promise to them to not take those away and sort of, you know, as an offset to giving billionaires tax cuts, which has always kind of been the wrap on Republicans. And so I think that that this becoming kind of a Mitch McConnell kind of bill is going to make it even more unpopular with the exact voters that Republicans have been able to bring into their coalition. And I think that Tillis is absolutely right. It's a political both a non starter and then an eventual something that could be catastrophic for them. I mean, this bill, I hear about voters more. The longer it's out there, the more it's sort of being talked about, the more voters are learning about it and the less they like it. Like this is one of those things where the more they know about what's in it, the more they don't want it to pass. And so I don't think that Mitch McConnell's comments did anything to make it more popular.

[Chris Hayes]

Let me, Sarah, I have some of the polling, but you tell me if you have more. Fox News, their poll showing support of the big beautiful bill. 38% of their respondents support it, almost 60%. And then Fox News polls the big beautiful bill among white non college men and just 43% support it and 53% oppose it. I think Pew Research has some numbers out. 29% of adults favor the bill, while almost 50 oppose it, 21% say they weren't sure. But to your point, it's been out there long enough. And what's interesting is Elon Musk savaging Trump and the bill and blowing up his relationship with Trump over the bill also speaks to a different part of the Trump coalition, sort of that I don't know what we're calling them anymore, that the men in the manosphere wing of the party has also heard Elon Musk hate it so much that he blew up his relationship with Donald Trump over it.

[Basil Smikle]

Yeah, well, this is the thing. The bill's in the sour spot with big parts of the MAGA coalition.

[Chris Hayes]

Right.

[Basil Smikle]

So for the people for whom debt and government efficiency and the idea that it's going to add trillions and trillions of dollars to our national deficit, it is deeply unpopular with that part of the party. And then it's also very unpopular with sort of the Josh Hawley wing of the party where they have a lot of voters who rely on these programs who know they're going to get cut. And for once, the Democrats messaging is breaking through. And I'm listening to voters in the focus groups. They are saying back what Democrats are putting out there, which is they are cutting your programs, programs that benefit you regular voter in order to give tax cuts to very rich people. That stuff lands and it lands with a lot of these voters who are now part of this MAGA coalition. And I hear voters all the time talk about how angry they are about it. And so, yeah, I think that as this continues, it's going to get less popular, not more popular.

[Chris Hayes]

So, Tim Miller, these are images from the Capitol today. People are protesting. There's some reporting that Mike Johnson, here you have it. This is a protest, I think in the Russell Senate office building. They were protesting health care cuts in the big beautiful bill. 34 people were arrested for illegally demonstrating inside the Russell Senate Office building. But you've also got Mike Johnson, who's basically the White House legislative affairs director, who's privately warning that the Senate, they push this through, will cost him his speakership, his majority.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, a couple of thoughts. I think that was the same protest I saw some pictures for where there is zip tying, the elderly people in wheelchairs who are protesting Medicaid, which is a, which is a bad image. I don't know if it was really necessary to bring out the zip ties again. Obviously, Capitol Police have protocols or whatever. But if I was the Republicans running the Senate in that case, I would probably be discouraging them from doing that. As far as the Mike Johnson and whether this has trouble in the house, the Mitch McConnell quote, It's a nice reminder of dark Mitch McConnell. There's a moment there where I was softening on Mitch because he opposed some of the cabinet secretaries unlike anybody else. It's a nice reminder of dark Mitch McConnell. The part of quote that you focused on, obviously the people will get over it is such a bad quote and it will be easy for Democrats to run in ads all next year. It was just a huge own goal to me. The more interesting political strategic part of the quote was the first thing he said though, where he said failure is not an option. And I guess I hate to give the Republicans advice, but I just keep coming around to why. I truly don't understand why they're jamming this through. Donald Trump in the past, so what you want about him has been decently savvy on these issues, particularly with regards to entitlements of, you know, being on the side of these kind of cuts. They, they have both the House and the Senate, they could just pass popular stuff and they could just extend the Trump tax cuts for the middle class, you know, and, you know, maybe whatever, throw no tax on tips on top of it. I'm sure they're gonna have to fund their ICE prisons, which isn't gonna be that popular, but I think they'll be forced to do that. But besides that, I, you know, I don't, I don't know why they feel the need to put this bill through, which is just a horrible bill on the merits of it's going to increase costs for people, not decrease costs. It's going to increase the debt, it's going to make healthcare less accessible for their own working class base. It truly makes no sense. And it feels like that they're just doing it because they feel like they have to do something. That's the thing with that Mitch McConnell quote, failure's not an option. There's this inertia that's taken hold and they're like, well, I guess we got to do something. And so they're going to jam through this really unpopular bill. And to me it seems like a major political strategic error and a lot of folks are going to lose their seats over it next year if it doesn't change.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, you're right to focus on that part of it. What does that even mean? Failure isn't an option because we're all in a cult and we can't disappoint the Dear Leader. It's not good policy. None of them believe in its impact on the debt. None of them are fans of it because of its policy implications. So what is this? A window into. And I want to, I want to put up one more set of numbers. This is what Virginia, the Commonwealth of Virginia will lose was $25 billion. It's a Republican governor. I wonder, I wonder if he weighs his weighed in or agrees with Mitch McConnell that failure isn't an option. State of Louisiana loses $20 billion. State of South Carolina $20 billion. Tennessee $16 billion. Kentucky $12 billion. Ohio $8.5 billion. West Virginia 8. $6 billion. Missouri, $6 billion. I mean, Tim, these are, they're not bastions of blue state woke politicians. Are they all just marching off of a cliff? And what is, what is the plan for the human beings impacted?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I don't think there's a plan for the human beings impacted. The political plan, I think is that they're just going to kind of jam it through and hope people don't notice by the next midterms. And a lot of the stuff they have backloaded. So a lot of these cuts come late in 2027 or they're not totally un savvy about this. I believe that chart you're just showing was the chart that Thom Tillis, the North Carolina senator who's up next year, so there's reason to be concerned about this, was showing to his colleagues. Yeah, that is the one that Tillis was showing to his colleagues to kind of make this point, which is, what are we doing? We're hurting ourselves with this policy. And I truly think the reality is they started from a place of we have to extend the Trump tax cuts because Trump, Trump. That's part of Trump's pride. Right? We're in some type of Trump, if you want to call it that. And we can't do anything to make it seem like the Trump tax cuts weren't good. So we have to extend them and we have to have all this funding for ICE detention centers because Stephen Miller's in there. And that is essentially the only core ideological agenda these guys have is mass deportation. So we have to do those two things and we're going to try to backfill everything else to make it work, starting from that finish point. And they've ended up with this kind of monstrosity that cuts healthcare services for people, but still balloons the deficit. And I don't think basically Anybody is going to end up happy. Except for private prison. Companies are probably going to do pretty well. And the very top 1%.

[Chris Hayes]

I don't miss Steve Bannon's influence because I don't think he's a force for good. But I think politically, Donald Trump might. Basil. I mean, Steve Bannon was the bulwark against devastating the world.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, hold on there. Let's choose a different word. Steve Bannon was not the bulwark, okay?

[Chris Hayes]

He was the. He was the damn. What was he? We'll choose another word. But I didn't mean to offend both of you, but I mean, Basil, whatever word we choose, I don't think Steve Bannon was a champion of Medicaid cuts, and I don't think Steve Bannon is a champion of everything at Walmart. And Target going up because of Trump's tariffs. I mean, you really see the whole maga, whatever it is, rolling booze, crude, whatever you want to call the movement careening away from its populist roots with real indifference to the political impact of tax cuts for the rich, $400 million planes from Middle east countries. I mean, it's almost unrecognizable other than the immigration focus from its origins.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right. In many ways, as I listen to you make those comments, it reminds me of the importance of campaign craft in a way. Right? Because if you were really focused on this bill, and as was said before, if you can't, if failure is not an option, then you would, as a president, be out there doing these messaging events across the country and bringing people on the stage to have them talk about the positive ways in which this bill impacts you. You can't do that with this. And to Sarah's earlier point, the more you learn about it, the more you're going to hate it. And the split screen I always talk about, split screen is the information that we're getting about what this bill does. But what we see is Donald Trump interacting with a lot of very wealthy people. We hear a lot of people talking about the tax cuts for the rich. We see him talking about getting a plane. So when you factor that in and you look at that contrast, you're like, well, wait a minute. Well, what is exactly in the this bill? Let me do my research. Let me do my homework. Because there's no campaign craft around these policies. That is at all finding a way to get Americans to buy into it, because it just can't happen. And so that's. So that, I think, is where the sort of ban and influence would come in that at least you'd have that person telling you you've got to find a way to make this look better even if you can't just try.

[Chris Hayes]

Tim, I thought you were going to attack me for saying I miss Steve Bannon, but I promise not to invoke the bulwark in a negative manner. If you all stick around one more block at least. When we all come back, we'll talk more with Sarah about a new campaign she has launched nationally showcasing first person accounts of the actual Americans who are being impacted by Trump, Trump's second presidency, those who are brave enough to expose his failures and the hurt and damage they are experiencing and suffering because of him. The campaign is called Home of the Brave. It's fantastic. We'll show you some of the ways people are pushing back against Donald Trump and those who are enabling him. Plus, Zoran Mamdani looks like he overcame 10 other candidates to prevail in the Democratic primary for mayor of in New York City. We'll look at how this race has shaken up politics not just in New York, but all around our country ahead in the hour. And later in the broadcast, the intelligence involving America's strike against Iran. Donald Trump and top leaders in his cabinet are standing by their assertion that Iran's nuclear capability has been, quote, obliterated. Senator Chris Murphy has a lot to say about that and joins us. We have a whole lot more ahead when DEADLINE WHITE HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Basil Smikle]

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[Tim Miller]

Nearly 6,000 veterans have already lost their job and been terminated from federal service at an unprecedented rate. And we'll all enter the civilian workforce with less protections. While my time is limited, I just.

[Chris Hayes]

Wanted to say this.

[Tim Miller]

This isn't subjective. This is evidence. This is evidence. In less than two months, this administration.

[Basil Smikle]

Has proved itself to be the most.

[Tim Miller]

Anti veteran administration.

[Chris Hayes]

Ever. That's fantastic reporting from our friend and colleague Alex Wagner. She was at a town hall meeting with veterans at the time, speaking about the damage that Trump's cuts were doing to the men and women who have served our country. And they have continued since that town hall meeting. In the few months since Trump has been president, he's fired thousands of veterans from the federal workforce. He's gutted VA Healthcare. He's de staffed the veterans suicide hotline. He's gutted research at the va. He's eliminated mortgage protections for veterans who are at risk of losing their homes. And he's threatened to cut other benefits for veterans that they desperately depend on and their families depend on. And it isn't just veterans. Millions of Americans have already been devastated by the things Trump has done, the cuts and the wanton disregard for how benefits impact and in some instances, protect and save people's lives. Our friend Sarah Longwell is launching a new project around these issues. It's called Home of the Brave. She's encouraging all of these people impacted to speak out about the damage Donald Trump has done to them. Take a look.

[Basil Smikle]

We say America is home of the brave. So why are so many people caving.

[Tim Miller]

To this wannabe dictator?

[Basil Smikle]

Law firms, media companies, universities, tech oligarchs.

[Tim Miller]

Are all buckling when threatened by Donald.

[Basil Smikle]

Trump and his administration. These elite cowards might be caving, but not us. We're Americans and we aren't intimidated. So let's do what the cowardly elites won't stand up and say something. We're collecting stories about how this administration is hurting people like you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Visit elfthebrave.org now to share yours.

[Basil Smikle]

Let's remind Trump why America is still.

[Tim Miller]

The home of the Brave.

[Chris Hayes]

I love this campaign. We're back with Sarah, Tim and Basil. Sarah is a member of the advisory board and spokesperson for Home of the Brave. Sarah, tell us about this campaign.

[Basil Smikle]

Well, Nicole, look, you and I talk about it a lot on this program, how important it is for people to speak out. I mean, one of the features of Donald Trump's sort of regime, his tenure over the last eight years, has been watching people go quiet in the face of his threats, in the face of the menace that he often projects, you know, and the way that he has threatened retaliation has caused all of these different American institutions, including media companies and the tech companies and universities, to go quiet, to cower in the face of his threats. And so the only choice now is for regular people to stand up and say something. You saw it with the no Kings protests. And look, when Tim and I are out on the road for the Bulwark and we're doing live shows, people always ask, ask the same question, what can I do? What can I do in this moment? I'm so scared. I'm so panicked. And I say, use your voice. That's what you've got. Your voice and your vote. And so telling the stories of the negative personal consequences that people are experiencing as a result of Trump's policies is the way to help people understand why Donald Trump has failed them, has betrayed them, has lied to them. And hopefully, by regular Americans standing up and telling their stories, it will give the necessary courage. You know, we talk about courage being contagious, the necessary courage to a lot of the cowards in our elite institutions who have caved to this guy because they don't want to, you know, get crosswise with shareholders or alumni or whatever their reasons, they're not good ones. And so it's up to patriotic Americans now to tell their stories and stand up and hope that other people will follow their lead. And that's what this campaign is about. Come tell us your stories.

[Nicole Wallace]

Stories.

[Basil Smikle]

Go toofthe brave.org tell them. We'll help amplify them. We'll make sure people see them. And through that, we'll help people understand how this administration is failing this country.

[Chris Hayes]

I had Alejandro Barranco on yesterday at 5 o' clock. His father was the weed whacker who was at work doing his landscaping job when the armed ICE agents arrested him and beat him. And according to him, and his son dislocated his shoulder and then left him without health care. And I had this thought, interviewing him, about how much more exposed he was. Right. Like, I work at A company that is an infrastructure for our coverage. He is a person whose father suffered at the hands of ice. And he came on our show and talked about it. And I wonder, Sarah, what the phenomenon is as you understand it right now. That is inverted courage, where you've got the people with the most to lose displaying the most extraordinary acts of courage and the people in the safest and most comfortable spaces doing less.

[Basil Smikle]

Oh, it is. I don't, I don't know quite how to explain it, because to me, it is unfathomable how people who have so much, to whom this country has given so much, have decided to take Donald Trump. And this didn't happen in his first term, like in his first term. I remember watching Republican elected officials cave to him. But a lot of members of civil society stood up. I mean, the tech, sort of, the oligarchs, whatever, they weren't in his pocket back then. Jeff Bezos was standing up to him back then, like everybody, or at least wasn't cowering in front of him. But I think when Donald Trump ran explicitly on a platform of retribution, that was all it took for so many of these media companies to say, well, you know, I've got a merger that I've got to get done, or law firms that say, I don't know, our mergers and acquisitions business, we can't stand to lose this. And so we're going to not stand up for the rule of law, the process that literally we are here to defend. So the only thing that I can think is that Donald Trump has been corroding and corrupting our society now for almost a decade. And I think it is what you're seeing is it take a toll. And there is only one antidote. And the only antidote is regular people saying, we are not going to do this. We're not going to let all of you buckle him. You guys want to be afraid of him, fine. Even if we are a little scared, we're still going to speak up, because that's what America's all about. You know, that is, that is what this country. It's how it was founded. It has been the through line of our history. And it's what it's going to take now to put Trump on the back of his heels to lower his approval ratings. And you know what? This is one thing I know about communications. People don't trust the elites anymore, but they do trust each other. Regular Americans explaining how this impacts them. And that is the way we're going to turn, turn the narrative about that Donald Trump around. It's the way you're going to weaken him, lower his approval ratings and make sure that this term of his is unsuccessful, a deep failure. And that's how you keep MAGA from being the law of the land going forward.

[Chris Hayes]

I want to see more of it. I could talk to you about this for the whole two hours. Let me play more from your testimonials. Hi, my name is Laurie LaPlante.

[Basil Smikle]

I'm a veteran.

[Chris Hayes]

I was in the Navy for 10 years. My husband is also a veteran.

[Basil Smikle]

He was a submarine officer.

[Chris Hayes]

My father in law was a three star admiral.

[Basil Smikle]

My father in law passed away in January and we are still waiting to have his funeral at Arlington. A lot of it is because of the cuts that the Trump administration has done at the Veterans Affairs. So that is really delaying things and it's just heartbreaking.

[Chris Hayes]

Everyone wants to put him to rest.

[Basil Smikle]

And to move on and remember his life and legacy, but we can't. It's very frustrating. I wish the Trump administration, as much as they say they care about the vets and want to take care of.

[Chris Hayes]

The vets, they're not doing it. Sarah, it seems that we should abandon talking about things like red lines in our politics because Trump has just danced back and forth over what was once a red line in our politics and that is respect, reverence for our veterans.

[Basil Smikle]

Yeah, but this is also a through line about Trump. I mean, Trump is not a person who served. He is a person who wants the army to be his own personal, ego driven sort of event for his birthday, like birthday party. He is not somebody who's shown reverence. You know, he called them suckers and losers. We know from what you know, obviously the generals are one of the groups of people I would like to see speak out so much more often than they have. But what little we know has come from people like General Kelly who tell us about the absolutely crazy things that Donald Trump has said about our veterans. Like he has no idea what it means to sacrifice, no idea what it means to have somebody who's deeply important to you and want to be able to bury them, them with the legacy that they deserve because they served this country and have them not be able to get somebody on the phone to do the burial. Because Donald Trump and this is where, look, the cuts that a lot of people can't see, touch and feel, they are touching people in lots of ways, but they don't always have a place to tell the story about how it's affecting them. And this might not be something somebody would think of when they make when Doge was going around making all these cuts. And that's why it's important to tell these stories from these things people about the way in which they are no longer have just the general services that were that is due to them as a family of veterans who have served this country. Donald Trump has made it clear he doesn't care about veterans. And I think it's time that people telling these stories help Americans sort of see through the emperor has no clothes way that Donald Trump tries to use the military as a political prop, but then doesn't actually take care of people who've actually served.

[Chris Hayes]

Sara, do us this favor as people come forward for the Home of the Brave campaign and mission, offer them a seat at our table any day that they would like to join us because I think the pro democracy side has to do a better job than it's done over the last nine years of lifting up these voices. And I think this work is so important. Thank you so much for joining us to tell us about it. Tim and Basil, stick around a little bit longer. Up next for us, a big political shock yesterday in New York City for Democrats, a young grassroots campaigner who ran a superb campaign, upsetting a former New York state governor who's been in politics for decades. How it happened, why it happened, and what happens next. Quick break. We'll be right back with that.

[Tim Miller]

With the vision of a city that every New Yorker could afford.

[Nicole Wallace]

We have won.

[Tim Miller]

It's where the mayor will use their.

[Chris Hayes]

Power to reject Donald Trump's fascism.

[Basil Smikle]

To.

[Tim Miller]

Stop masked ICE agents from deporting our neighbors and to govern our city as a model for the Democratic Party.

[Chris Hayes]

It was nothing less than a political earthquake, a stunning result in New York City last night with the man you just saw, Zoran Mamdani, now poised to be the Democratic Party's nominee to be New York City's next mayor. Mamdani, who describes himself as a Democratic socialist, is just 33 years old. He is currently serving in the state Assembly. His campaign focused heavily on New York City's affordability crisis as well as public safety. If elected mayor in November, he would be the city's first Muslim mayor. He is set to face Eric Adams in the general election, who is running as an independent. Mamdani's victory was unthinkable a couple months ago, thanks in part to former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo's candidacy. Mamdani was trailing in the polling for much of the race. Cuomo, who will likely finish second in voting, conceded to him last night we're back with Tim and Basil. Tim, I know you just interviewed him. Your thoughts and your reaction?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, look, I think that his politics is probably closer to Basil's than to mine, but I think this should be a massive wake up call for the Democratic establishment. Andrew Cuomo. These guys circled the wagons around Andrew Cuomo. Somebody had to resign in disgrace. Someone that was a sex pest. What was the rationale for that? They did so. And he spent $25 million on TV to know. Or he's had a super PAC that spent $25 million to obviously no effect. And he ran a campaign out of 1998. And you know that we've seen too much of that from the Democratic establishment. And so then here you have this upstart guy, Zohran Mandani, who ran a campaign for 2025. He was focused on costs, which we were talking about in the first segment. That's what everybody cares about, no matter what your ideology is right now. He's focused on costs. He was optimistic, he was affable. He walked the entire length of Manhattan, I think it was on Friday or Saturday, while Cuomo was running a Rose Garden campaign or whatever the equivalent of that is in New York, mamming of the people, letting people yell at him, letting people disagree with him. And as you mentioned at the time, he came on my podcast and look, he knew coming on that I'm a former Republican and a capitalist, that we were going to disagree. And I asked him about his. A bunch of stuff I disagree with him on whether it's the city run grocery stores or some of the other DSA mayors like the one in Chicago who's not done a great job or anti Semitism on the left. I asked him about all that stuff. He came on. Some answers were better than others, but he was normal, he was comfortable, he was affable. We laughed. He was able to make jokes. He didn't sound like a politician. That's how you run a campaign in 2025. Show working class people you care about them, them. Be authentically yourself, be optimistic, be a politician for the people. And I think that a Democrat could do that no matter what their ideology is. He just happens to be on the left side of the party. So we'll see how he is as a mayor. But his campaign, to me, should be a model. And I understand and I can see why there are a lot of folks who share his politics that are really excited about it.

[Chris Hayes]

Basil, all your thoughts and reactions today, Listen.

[Nicole Wallace]

It really was an earthquake in many ways. I mean, Mangani is 20 years younger than I am. He's the second youngest mayor in a century. Well, if he, assuming he becomes mayor, he would be the second youngest in a century in New York City. So it really is a sea change in the politics here. It has been a repudiation of establishment politics. And that's really important because as Tim mentioned, a lot of established politicians got around Andrew Cuomo, and you might understand that they have a relationship with him. They were less willing to put a lot of their resources and support and reputation behind someone they didn't know very well. And they're used to those sort of political machines and political pathways. Some of them are my friends. So I understand why they may have done that. But what Mandani did was create a movement around his candidacy. And that is something that I think a lot of Democrats locally and nationally want to see. Someone that excites them, somebody that isn't afraid to think big ideas, to put them out there, even if they get shot down, to keep pushing for them, keep talking about them. And I think more importantly, he wants to want the Democrats not just to be a party that is anti Donald Trump. It's got to be a party that stands for something and is unafraid to go after that.

[Chris Hayes]

Basil, I have a million more questions. I keep hearing this thing you just said, though. Everywhere I go, on and off this show, on and off the podcast, people want to be part of a movement. They want to be part of a community doing good things, moving the country or the city forward. I want to press you on that. Tim Miller, I know you have to leave us now. Thank you very much for joining us. I promise I won't use the word bulwark improperly. We're going to sneak in one more break. We'll be right back.

[Tim Miller]

So often the question of whether or not wealthy New Yorkers stay in this city is framed as if it's entirely contingent upon tax policy. But if you look at studies by the Fiscal Policy Institute, you find that the top 1% of New Yorkers leave.

[Basil Smikle]

At 1/4 the rate of other income.

[Tim Miller]

Categories due to that tax policy. Ultimately, what it is is quality of life.

[Basil Smikle]

And I think too often we've allowed.

[Tim Miller]

Words like quality of life, like efficiency.

[Basil Smikle]

Fraud, waste, to almost become coded as if they are right wing concerns, when in fact they should be left wing concerns.

[Chris Hayes]

Rebecca Basel, More basic than anything. He's a fantastic candidate and he ran a superb campaign. That is a also true about last night's results.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, that's absolutely right. And you Heard him from that clip. He's not only really smart about reframing the questions and the conversation, but he's also been really good about reforming the Democratic constituency. That's really important because you have a lot of people moving around in cities. You know, you have a lot of African Americans that were in northern cities moving south. There are a lot of changes in what that coalition has looked like over the last few decades. And there is this increase in younger voters who are not connected to Democratic machine politics at all. And I don't use that term in the pejorative. It just means that they're not connected to sort of that older guard. So they're looking for someone to talk to them about the policies that are going to be really impactful in our lives. And, you know, owing to some of the conversations we have had earlier with Sarah, you know, the warrior poet Audre Lorde said, you, silence will not protect you. And what he's calling out is the silence from some electeds on some of what they've been seeing in the world and the, I guess, adherence to incrementalism in our policymaking and the sense that that is no longer viable. It doesn't work anymore. We need to go in a different. A different. So in a way, it's not just about civic education. It's kind of a civic ministry where we're talking to each other about not only understanding process, but understand how that process can be made to work better for more people, particularly a younger generation of voters. So it was a really interesting and refreshing conversation that he had with voters over these last few months and ran a campaign that kind of mirrored that energy that so many voters are looking for.

[Chris Hayes]

What advice would you give him, you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Know, in these early days, since the primary, leading up to the general, and then, you know, if he gets sworn in those first few months as mayor, there are going to be a lot of questions about his youth, about his experience, and about whether a lot of those policies that he talked about are even viable. He'll be in charge, presumably over $150 billion. I'm sorry, $120 billion budget, 300,000 workers in city and municipal government, a tremendous bureaucracy. And there's a lot of good that can be done through that. Just get the right people in place, work with the right folks, ask the right questions, and be undaunted. You know, try things. Because clearly there's a lot that has been tried that isn't working. So, you know, he's going to have to meet the expectations of a lot of voters. He'll be moderated by some of the institutional politics, but that's not an excuse to sort of push the, push the envelope a little bit and, you know, and take some chances because that's what the voters elected him to do.

[Chris Hayes]

Soran Mamdame will be on our airwaves tonight. He'll be Jen Psaki's guest tonight right here on MSNBC at 9:00pm Eastern. Basil, thank you for spending time with us on all these stories today. Up next for us, Kilmar Abrego Garcia in a Nashville courtroom. This hour will tell you what the judge had to say and what it means for his release. Kilmar Abrego Garcia was in court moments ago as a federal judge set the terms for his release from federal custody while he awaits trial on smuggling charges. However, both his defense attorneys and prosecutors have said that they expect him to be taken into custody by ICE as soon as he is released, with the judge even calling her own ruling, quote, academic. After he signed the conditions, the judge acknowledged that Abreco Garcia would likely be placed into ICE custody immediately and told him this, quote, that part of the process is outside the control of the court. But I want to make sure that part has been explained to you. Court was just recessed, so there are still questions about how his release and possible detainment will play out. We're going to keep an eye on that part of the story and we'll bring you any updates to it when we come back. Senator Chris Murphy is our guest on everything, including the president's claims of fully eliminating Iran's nuclear facility. The next hour of deadline. White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Basil Smikle]

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[Tim Miller]

We believe that shoes are an important.

[Nicole Wallace]

Part of, well, everything from first steps to first dates. From all nighters to all time personal bests. From building pillow forts to building a.

[Chris Hayes]

Life for all the big and small.

[Tim Miller]

Moments that make up your whole world. DSW is there and we've got just the shoes.

[Chris Hayes]

Find a shoe for every you from.

[Tim Miller]

Brands you love at brag worthy prices.

[Basil Smikle]

At your DSW store or dsw.com.

[Tim Miller]

The intelligence was was very inconclusive. The intelligence as we don't know it.

[Chris Hayes]

Could have been very severe.

[Tim Miller]

That's what the intelligence says. So I guess that's correct. But I think we could take that. We don't know it was very severe.

[Nicole Wallace]

Severe.

[Chris Hayes]

It was obliteration. And you think that a media outlet.

[Tim Miller]

Would say, isn't that a great thing?

[Chris Hayes]

We have the hour to sift through whatever he was trying to say there. Hi again everybody. It's now five o' clock in the east, four days after dramatic military action in Iran. Do you know where your Secretary of Defense is? What he's doing? Keep that question in the back of your mind as we evaluate what Donald Trump just said or tried to say practically in the same incoherent breath, admitting the preliminary U.S. intelligence of the damage done in the wake of the US Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities was, in Trump's telling, quote, very inconclusive, end quote. But that Donald Trump also believes that same, quote, very inconclusive intelligence somehow proves, quote, obliteration. That muddled statement came after leaked documents. A leaked internal assessment reportedly suggested that the US Strikes weren't as successful as Donald Trump originally claimed they were. Now an alarming Axios piece of reporting says the Trump administration's response to all of this is to limit the classified information that it shares with Congress moving forward. That's according to four administration sources who say this, quote, federal officials are planning to limit posting on CapNet, a system the administration uses to share classified information with Congress. The dia, that's the Defense Intelligence Agency's assessment on the Iran bombings, was put on CapNet late Monday, quote, go figure. Almost as soon as we put the information on CapNet, it leaks. An administration source said there's no reason to do this again. Which brings us back to the question we proposed. What's the Secretary of Defense up to today? If you guessed launching a leak investigation. Well, come on down because former Fox News host Pete Hegseth, who once accidentally added, who has accidentally shared sensitive information with a journalist who was added to a signal chat, is on the job. The Pentagon's focus now apparently includes a criminal investigation, seeking answers to how journalists got their hands on classified damage assessments that suggest U.S. airstrikes may not have set Iran's nuclear program back as significantly as the administration has communicated it did. Today at the NATO summit in the Netherlands, Hegseth lashed out at the media again for using the government's own analysis to question whether or not the attack was effective and in so doing may have confirmed the leak he's now charged with investigating. Watch.

[Tim Miller]

They don't care what the troops think. They don't care what the world thinks. They want to spin it to try to make him look bad based on a leak. Of course, we've all seen plenty of leakers. And what do leakers do? They have agendas. And what do they do?

[Basil Smikle]

Do they share the whole information or.

[Tim Miller]

Just the part that they want to introduce? And when they introduce that preliminary, a preliminary report that's deemed to be low, a low assessment, you know what a low assessment means?

[Basil Smikle]

Low confidence in the data in that report. And why is there low confidence?

[Tim Miller]

Because all of the evidence of what.

[Basil Smikle]

Was just bombed by 12 30,000 pound.

[Tim Miller]

Bombs is buried under a mountain, devastated and obliterated. So if you want to make an assessment of what happened at Fordeau, you better get a big shovel and go really deep because Iran's nuclear program is obliterated.

[Chris Hayes]

All of this is where we start the hour with Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator, I've been following your sort of real time commentary, but let's just start unpacking. Hegseth, there's something disturbing about watching him perform with Donald Trump over his shoulder. We'll just start by trying to ascertain the facts. He did seem to confirm the diagram assessment though, there, didn't he?

[Tim Miller]

Well, they've all essentially confirmed the DIA assessment. And listen, the one thing that he's right about is that, you know, there is always going to be low confidence in assessing a strike in a foreign country designed to destroy something underground. We don't have cameras underneath there. We don't know exactly what we hit or what we didn't hit. But the initial assessment of dealing with, of the photographic evidence is that they did not fundamentally destroy those assets. And what we also know is that the Iranians were successful in moving a lot of the enriched uranium out of Fordo. And that maybe is the most important fact. If we didn't destroy the 60% enriched uranium, they frankly don't need that many centrifuges in order to continue to enrich up to nuclear grade. So listen, they're mad. They're furious. You can see it in their voice. Because they got caught in a lie. They got caught in a lie. They went out there and said that they. That the nuclear capacity of Iran was obliterated, that we'd set back the program at least a year. They knew they were lying when they said it. They got caught in the lie. That's super embarrassing. And they're trying to cover up that lie with this righteous indignation, blaming everybody but themselves for the fact that they did the really unforgivable sin of national security communication. They fudged intelligence about our national security. You can't do that because as we have seen over and over again over the course of our history, that's what gets us into unnecessary wars of choice. That's what gets not dozens or hundreds of Americans killed, but thousands. Thousands of Americans killed. They're angry because they got caught lying.

[Chris Hayes]

This weekend, I have been to that movie and I do know how it ends. Tell me why you think this is happening. Because when you look at what Donald Trump could have said, he could have said the military performed brilliantly, they successfully struck their targets, and his base would have been just as happy. Why do you think they're digging in and doubling and tripling down on this word obliterated, which, by the way, his own chairman of the Joint Chiefs did not agree with on Sunday morning.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, listen, what you said is right. The military did their job here. But one of the reasons we have been reluctant to use a overhead strike is that we, the American national security community has known that there was a medium to low probability that we would do the kind of damage that we wanted, but that there would be then, because of the strike inside Iran, the potential for regional conflict, the potential for a lot of Americans to get killed, the potential for diplomacy as an option to disappear as it has, at least in the short run. So the military did their job. They should be applauded for a really dangerous mission, but it's not their fault that the mission they were given had a low likelihood of success. And the standard that Donald Trump set, obliteration was a standard that the military probably was never going to be able to achieve, given how bunkered those facilities were and given the fact that Iran apparently had moved a lot of the uranium off site already.

[Chris Hayes]

And some of the reason you could theorize is because Donald Trump kept warning them that he was, he telegraphed this. I mean, it all feels so circular. And I wonder where you go. You're on the Foreign Relations Committee. I mean, where do you go for facts? Who do you trust today?

[Tim Miller]

Well, as you mentioned, they've also announced that they're going to stop sharing intelligence with Congress because they like it when they don't get caught in their lies. They like it better when they can just make up things and there's no way that they can be caught. And if they don't share information with Congress, then, yeah, there's a much higher likelihood that they're going to just tell the American people fabrications about the risks posed to us or to the success emissions that they undergo overseas and no one will be the wiser, I guess. Where do I go from here, Nicole? They are also this week trying to take health care away from 16 million Americans. And there is an element of this version of his reality show that is designed to try to distract Americans from the fact that they are about to pass the most massive transfer of wealth from the poor, the middle class to the rich in the history of the country. So I'm going to keep talking about what they have done to try to get away with a really criminal lie about this mission in Iran. But I'm also going to make sure that we don't let them turn the story from what will ultimately matter most to the people I represent, which is a bill that's going to destroy health care for 16 million Americans if they pass it this weekend.

[Chris Hayes]

It's a bill with a 38% approval rating. And Sarah Longwell, who does a whole lot of focus groups with a lot of Trump voters, says that the more people know about it, the more they hate it and that people hate Mitch McConnell. And so you sort of have both this unpopular bill with a 38% approval rating, which is around where Trump is maybe even a little bit lower, and this boogeyman in the Republican Party AS well, Mitch McConnell saying they'll get over it about people losing Medicaid. How do you make sure that Americans, regardless of their political ideology, know what is at stake with this bill?

[Tim Miller]

Well, again, that that's the trick here because what has happened in Iran is serious. I mean, we are still not out of the woods. There is still the potential for there to be an escalation that draws America into regional war. So of course, we can't ignore that. But it is also true that what probably matters in the short and long run to most of our constituents is the fact that $800 billion of Medicaid cuts, by the way, in order to finance tax cuts for the wealthy. That's why, why they're doing it is going to be a cataclysm to our entire health care system. Yes, 16 million people may lose their health care, but when you kick that many people off of health care, hospitals close because they don't have the revenue they need. And that impacts people who have health care. So what's interesting right now is that this place is crawling with patients with people who are about to lose their health care. You can't go anywhere without running into somebody that's about to be impacted. And it's a very familiar feeling. This is what the building felt and looked like in 2017 when Republicans were trying to eliminate and repeal Obamacare. They didn't get away with it by one vote. Their effort to deny health care then to 20 million Americans failed. They haven't passed this bill yet. And so the more people understand how terrible this bill is, the more people that come to Capitol Hill and tie up Republican offices, phone lines with, with phone calls, the better chance we have at stalling this and perhaps defeating it.

[Chris Hayes]

Listen, you just articulated, you know, a day in the life, right, of the Democratic Party's efforts to both catch Trump in the lies that he's telling, as he's telling them, and do the work that you can do as a senator on foreign relations or as your colleagues are on intel, as well as protecting all American Harkins from the devastating cuts to Medicaid and other services from the bill? What is, what is sort of the message to your colleagues? What is the plan for making sure that everyone can keep these two crises sort of front of mind as we march forward and anticipate that Trump will continue to try to wag the dog?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean, I do believe that we can walk and shoe guns at the same time. And, you know, I guess my recommendation is, yes, we have to talk about what's going on in Iran. We can't let him continue to get away with this level of fabrication and lie. But we do have to keep our eye on the ball. And right now, the ball, the primary ball, is this Republican budget bill. We also have limited ability to stop the president when he's deciding to use forces overseas because we would have to come up with a whole bunch of Republican votes to vote against a funding bill for those activities. Right now, we only need a couple Republicans to vote no on this budget bill and we can stop it. So in terms of what's achievable in the short run, stopping 16 million people from being thrown off of health care is probably more achievable. And so that's where I think most of our energy has to go. And if I'm recommending, you know, what people out there in the public should be calling offices here about, it should be about the Republican budget bill because we, we can create enough momentum here, we can create enough activity here that we convince the four senators we need to vote no this weekend.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, reporting in Axios suggests that Thom Tillis might be a target. He's carrying around the data that shows how severe the cuts are to his state and to other Republican led states. I mean, in some ways, it seems ironic that you might be saving Republicans from themselves. What are the behind the scenes conversations with particularly vulnerable Republicans on the bill?

[Tim Miller]

Well, I mean, the Republicans have a really delicate balancing act because there's a hard right in the House that wants the $800 billion in Medicaid cuts, that wants the big nutrition cuts. And if those just get scaled back a little bit in the Senate version, that may mean it passes the Senate, but then can't pass the House. But I think what we need to do is just expose the truth. Speaker Johnson the other day had a press conference. She said, no, we're strengthening Medicare. We're not hurting Medicare. Well, Thom Tillis went to his caucus last night, as you mentioned, with a flyer that he was handing out. And the flyer said, if you pass this bill, 600,000 people in North Carolina are going to lose their Medicaid. So in front of the press conferences, the Republicans are saying, no, we're, we're just, you know, targeting fraud and abuse in health care. But behind closed doors, they're handing out flyers making it very clear that they all know they're throwing millions of people off their health care. So we've just got to continue to get that story out about what they talk about behind closed doors and what we know to be the truth about this bill.

[Chris Hayes]

You were one of the earliest folks to use your platforms and really talk to the country about what was happening in the transition and in the earliest days of the Trump presidency. I haven't had a chance to talk to you since the no Kings protest. But do you feel like there's windows at the back of Democrats calling out moves and policies that are clearly autocratic?

[Tim Miller]

I do. And of course, you know, I believe that this is all one story. So, yes, Trump and the Republicans are trying to engineer the most massive transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the wealthy in the history of the country. 16 million people throw them off their health care so that the richest families can get, get a new big tax breaks and corporations can pay the lowest tax rate in modern history. That's super unpopular, as you said. You know, only 30% of the country likes it, and every single day that number gets lower. So how do you pass that agenda? You can only pass that agenda if you also destroy democracy, if you also destroy the means of accountability so that you can hide the truth from the American public, so that it's less likely that your opposition can win or to engage, engage in protest. So it's all part of the same story. If you want to convert American democracy to an oligarchy in which only a handful of elites make the decisions for the rest of us, then you also have to destroy democracy together. I think the American people are beginning to see the full picture here. Millions of people out in the streets over the course of that no Kings weekend. And I think those numbers will continue to get bigger and bigger. I have faith that we'll save this democracy, democracy, and maybe we'll stop some of their most hurtful legislation like this budget bill, along the way.

[Chris Hayes]

And do you think that it happens when his approval ratings come down and Republicans don't feel quite the intense tether to him, or how. Just tell me how that happens that you stop?

[Tim Miller]

Well, yeah, Part of the reason why a lot of us have been traveling the country and specifically going to Republican states and Republican districts is that there's a real opportunity to have a conversation with Trump voters and to tell them that they were duped, they were lied to. You know, you thought that he was kidding when he said he was going to be a dictator, and you thought that he was serious when he said he was going to do something about your prices, the cost of the grocery store. Well, in fact, the opposite is true. He was serious about being a dictator and he doesn't give a crap about costs because everything he's doing between this budget bill and his tariffs are driving up costs for 80% of the country. That's a message that can start to peel his own base away from him. So part of our mission is to not just stay here in Washington. If we're done here this weekend, I'm going out to Wichita, Kansas, and I'm going to talk to Republican voters in the middle of the country about how they got sold a bill of goods by this president. And I think if we're being purposeful, purposeful in not just talking to our base, but talking to Republicans as well, you know, we can build the kind of resistance that we need across the country to stop the bad legislation and ultimately to save our democracy. Because I think most regular, ordinary Republicans out there who might have voted for Donald Trump are not ready to give up on democracy. They don't like that part of his agenda.

[Chris Hayes]

All right, we're going to ask you to come back after your trip to Wichita. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. You stayed longer than we'd ever ask you to. We are grateful. Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

Thanks, Nicole.

[Chris Hayes]

When we come back, we'll bring in our friends Tom Nichols and Paul Rykoff into this conversation about Donald Trump's war against democracy and specifically against his own intelligence community. We'll also talk about how much damage those US Strikes caused Iran's nuclear program, based on what we know, the facts as they've been presented to us as a public. Also ahead, the Trump loyalists responsible for causing an exit of resignations at the Department of Justice. He's been nominated for a lifetime judicial appointment despite a brand new searing whistleblower report accusing him of ordering DOJ attorneys to ignore and disobey judges and court orders. How Democrats treated Emil Bobay in his confirmation hearing today. We'll show it to you later in the hour. Then White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. They were very nice.

[Tim Miller]

They gave us warning.

[Nicole Wallace]

They said we're going to shoot them.

[Chris Hayes]

Is one o' clock okay?

[Tim Miller]

He said it's fine. And everybody was emptied off the base.

[Chris Hayes]

So they couldn't get hurt except for the gunners. They call them the gunners.

[Tim Miller]

And out of 14 high end missiles.

[Chris Hayes]

That were shot at the base In.

[Tim Miller]

Qatar, all 14, as you know, were shot down by our equipment.

[Chris Hayes]

That was Donald Trump. Let's bring into our conversation staff writer at the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic Daily Newsletter, Tom Nichols, as well as the host of the Independent Americans podcast and founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, Paul Rykoff is here as well. Let me read to you another piece of information we have about this roiling debate that is clearly under the skin of Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth and his cabinet about the intelligence picture before and after the strike on Iran Saturday. This is from John Ratcliffe, the CIA director. Quote, CIA can confirm that a body of credible intelligence indicates Iran's nuclear program has been severely damaged by the recent targeted strikes. This includes new intelligence from an historically reliable and accurate source, source and method that several key Iranian nuclear facilities were destroyed and would have to be rebuilt over the course of years. The CIA continues to collect additional reliably sourced information to keep appropriate decision makers and oversight bodies fully informed. When possible. We will also provide updates and information to the American public given the national importance of this matter and in every attempt to provide transparency. So we're at severely damaged from obliterated and I guess, Tom Nichols, if you could just sort of take us to school about why this matters.

[Tim Miller]

Well, first you'll notice how carefully wordsmith Ratcliffe's statement was. It's not that the CIA has ascertained this. It's that the CIA has ascertained that there are people who they think are credible who are saying this, which may be true. But it matters because the administration is needlessly boxing itself in because the President just can't stand ambiguity. It's always gotta be a win. It's always gotta be the biggest, like no one's ever seen, hugest, whatever. And battle damage assessment doesn't work that way. It takes a while. His own senior leaders and people like General Kaine are telling him that if he had a real Secretary of defense, one who knew what he was doing, his Secretary of defense would be telling him that. But what you saw today is why Pete Hegseth was hired. He did the kind of of, you know, combative Fox host thing defending the President. And it matters because we need to know this. We went into, we sent advanced bombers with 14 bombs, you know, huge bombs into a foreign country. And now we need to know whether that worked because there are going to be a lot of down the line effects from bombing Iran. And it's important to know whether this actually happened. But instead, the administration is clearly kind of panicking, trying to shut off information. They say it's because of leaks. I'm sure that's partly what has them irritated. But I also suspect they're probably letting their own members, Republican members, off the hook who can now say, well, I haven't seen anything, you know, because that makes it easier. I mean, this is, this is really not the way to do this. A competent, dedicated administration would say, we felt we had to do this thing. Our forces executed the mission they were assigned. Now we're going to wait to see what kind of success we had. But that is beyond Donald Trump's capability. It's always got to be an instant, huge, obliterating and so on and so forth.

[Chris Hayes]

What you just articulated is the part that I can't in any interviews I've done on this show, or on Saturday night when I was on the air, or in any of my own reporting, understand the answer to Trump's base. And a vast majority of the American people would accept that the strikes hit their intended targets. And we'll wait and see the impact. Why do you think this manufactured narrative about knowing the impact of the strikes is happening in the first place? Is it as simple as what you just articulated, Tom? It's his need to write the script and write the end of the story.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean, part. Look, it's true. His base will believe anything he tells them, but he wants this to be done. He wants. Trump always creates these kind of closed, you know, narrative dramas where we did this thing, we succeeded, and now it's over, and now we can go to the next thing. The real world, especially when it comes to international relations, national defense is complicated. It takes time to figure things out. That is not Donald Trump. Donald Trump's strong suit, and he certainly doesn't want this to drag on. He doesn't want people popping, saying, well, we're not sure how much we got. We're not sure if the uranium was moved, we're not sure, you know, if they're going to be able to dig out the centrifuges. We're still working on that. That is what Donald Trump's compact with his followers is to say, when I say something gets done, I'm, you know, it happens and it's over and there's no worrying about it after that. So I think it's just part of the way, you know, he talks to his base, but it's also the way he wants to see the world. He says these things to try to will them into existence, the same way he tried to do with the ceasefire. There's a ceasefire, and of course, nobody in Israel or Iran commented on that. And he thought by saying it, these things just happen because on TV that's the way they happen, but not in the real world.

[Chris Hayes]

Paul Rykov, you were an incredible voice of clarity on Pete Hegseth. He's clearly marching to the beat of Democrats. Donald Trump's drum. Trump just announced that Hegseth will have a press conference tomorrow morning at 8am There was an uncomfortable scene. I'm not going to play it again. I played it at the top of the hour of Hegseth clearly performing, with Trump literally standing over his shoulder. What, in your view, is happening at the Pentagon right now? Where I should point out, General Kaine did not use the Word obliterated. He said that. Exactly what Tom Nichols just said, that the damage assessments are not all in yet. We'll see.

[Tim Miller]

Truth is the first casualty of war always, but especially with these guys. I mean, this is revealing their character, combat and the highest stakes possible. Reveal your true character. And Donald Trump and his team have been a group of people who've been lying about things big and small for years. They lied about January 6th, they lied about the election. They lie about his body weight and his golf score. And now they're lying about battle damage assessments. This is who they are, and this is where we're going, because the stakes keep going up. After National Guard troops in Los Angeles and he blows through that guardrail, and after federal troops in California and three other states, and he's blown through that guardrail. Now he's dropping bombs on foreign countries and lying about it and misrepresenting it and exaggerating, because that's what he always does. Because he doesn't have discipline. Discipline. He doesn't have restraint. He's not calculated in his language, and neither is his team. And now you've got Hegseth, who's going to do, like you said, what he was hired to do. But maybe taking a broader step back, he is not looking like a secretary of defense for America. The way he talks to people, the way he berates people, the way he yells at people, it's unbecoming and it's embarrassing for America. The Europeans are not buying his shtick and most Americans are not buying his shtick. And I think sooner or later, Trump may not be buying his shtick either. But the real question now is, as always, what is Congress going to do about it? They've advocated their responsibility on the War Powers Act. They haven't reined him in, and he can go further. So the question has to be before the Democrats and the Republicans, what are you going to do about it? If he lied about a strike on Iran, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to hold him accountable? How are you going to hold Pete Hegsep accountable? It's nice that he's finally doing a press conference because he, he hasn't done one in months. But they can't stop there because American lives are now at risk.

[Chris Hayes]

Courtney Kuby said on our air they hadn't done one ever until the Sunday morning after the strikes. That was the first one. I want to ask you, Paul Rykoff, what the implication is of Hegseth turning his focus to this leak of investigation, ostensibly creating a Climate of more fear after all the purges and all the firings that he's already undertaken at the Pentagon. How. What are you hearing about how the Pentagon's holding up?

[Tim Miller]

Well, while we were looking at other things, the chaos at the Pentagon around Pete Hegseth was still unfolding. He lost half of his communication team. And here's the thing. If there are leaks, they're coming from inside the building. They're his former people, they're his current people. There are people who are around him because what's happened in the last couple months is they've started to eat their own, and they're sloppy and undisciplined. So whether. Whether it's malicious intent or it's incompetence, this is the environment that Hegseth has created from Signalgate all the way through, and it hasn't stopped. What's changed now is the stakes have gotten higher. Now we're attacking Iran. Now we're talking about nukes. Now there's expanding conflict in the Middle east, and the same guys are in charge with the same kind of command climate. So the stakes are going to continue to get higher, and he's going to continue to be in over his head even more, and all of us are less safe, and more of our enemies are celebrating.

[Chris Hayes]

Grim, grim analysis. But I thank you for it. The truth is, is these days. No, it's. It's why we need.

[Tim Miller]

We need to hear right now. Right?

[Chris Hayes]

That's what we need. We need all of it. Paul Rykoff, Tom Nichols, best of the best. Thank you for spending time with us today. When we come back, what happens when a Trump loyalist nominated for a federal judgeship faces Senate Democrats the day after a whistleblower dramatically accuses him of encouraging the Justice Department that he helped lead to ignore and disobey court orders? Well, we'll show you next.

[Tim Miller]

There must be a reason why everyone disagrees with you, Mr. Bouvet. And people feel it necessary to give.

[Nicole Wallace]

Up a job they love at the.

[Tim Miller]

Department of Justice justice and quit because they won't go along with what they consider unethical and immoral orders from you. There must be a reason why that is so true of so many, and this court needs to get to the bottom of it.

[Chris Hayes]

At today's confirmation hearing for Donald Trump's pick for a lifetime appointment on the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, Emil Bovey, Senator Adam Schiff posed that question to him. Why are so many people who love the department, who love the law, resigning because of, and in the face of Bobby's actions and direct orders and commands. Bobby, who currently serves as the top official in Trump's doj, is the person who ordered Manhattan prosecutors to dismiss the criminal corruption case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. It's a move that compelled then U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Danielle Sassoon, to resign abruptly. A flurry of others followed her, including conservative Republicans. In her resignation letter, Sassoon spoke to Bovey, ignoring the facts and the rule of law. Quote, the reasons advanced by Mr. Bovey for dismissing the indictment are not ones I can in good faith defend as in the public interest and as consistent with the principles and impartiality and fairness that guide my decision making. And now, according to a brand new blockbuster whistleblower report just out yesterday, Bovey instructed his subordinates and wanted them to ignore the courts as well. Veteran DOJ lawyer Erez Reveni, in his report, recounted a meeting in March about deporting immigrants in which Bovey said this, quote, he stressed to all in attendance that the planes needed to take off no matter what. Bovey then made a remark concerning the possibility that a court order would enjoin those removals. Before they could be effectuated, Bovey stated that DOJ would need to consider telling the courts fu. It's the word Trump said on the South Lawn yesterday. For those of you watching closely and ignore any such court order, end quote. At today's hearing, Senator Corey Booker raised a simple question.

[Tim Miller]

I'm wondering where the lines are for you. What's the line in the sand when you wield awesome power of government?

[Nicole Wallace]

What is that line for you?

[Tim Miller]

Because clearly, lying to a court isn't a red line.

[Nicole Wallace]

Referring to refusing to follow court orders isn't a line.

[Tim Miller]

Doxing judges and government officials isn't a red line.

[Nicole Wallace]

Intimidating attorneys you supervise into doing things.

[Tim Miller]

They believe is unethical is not a line. So what's your red line? I really wonder, what could the president.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ask you to do that you wouldn't do? What wouldn't you do to win?

[Chris Hayes]

Joining our coverage, voting rights attorney, founder of Democracy Docket, Mark Elias is back. Also joining us, former criminal Division deputy chief at sdny. MSNBC legal analyst Christy Greenberg's here. Christy worked for Bove. Is it Bovi Bove? I've said it a million different ways with Bovi Bovi. We finally got it. Chrissy, you worked with him. There's this extraordinary whistleblower report out about how he instructed lawyers at DOJ to ignore court orders. Your thoughts on how those allegations were handled today?

[Basil Smikle]

So I Thought the questioning from Senator Schiff on this was right on point. He essentially went through the whistleblower complaint and said, did you say that you would consider telling, telling the courts f you and not abiding by the court's order? Did you say that? And Bovey's response was, I do not recall. I have no recollection of saying anything of the kind. He then, like a dog with a bone, just kept asking the question over and over and he got responses like, well, you know, you know that maybe I tell people to fight hard for their positions. And you know, I, you know, he was kind of shifting and not really answering, but ultimately came up with, I don't recall. And Senator, what Senator Schiff said to that was absolutely right. Like, what do you mean you don't recall? That's something you would think you would recall saying to a group of people that to tell a court to f off. Is that something you, is that how you use your speak? It was just such a remarkable exchange. And this is not like something that happened years ago. This is a few months ago in a pretty high profile case. You would know if you said that.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[Basil Smikle]

And again, it is in keeping in the tone and tenor of past conduct that Senator Booker brought up where there were public reporting about a number of complaints dating back to 2018 when he was at SDNY about the way that he spoke to defense attorneys, the way that he spoke to prosecutors. And so him saying something like that, using that kind of language again, when viewed in the total context of complaints about him, seems to be in keeping with how he speaks to people and how he acts. And remember, it was just two days ago where just Justice Sotomayor, in her dissenting opinion in the court in the case where there are deportations to a third country, she said, we've seen this Department of Justice violate court orders. We've seen it now multiple times. And this court continues to treat that non compliance and allow them to get away with it. And that is only going to further erode the rule of law. So I don't think anybody should have any complaints. Confidence in Bovey's comments today on that. I would have expected somebody to say, of course, I not only did not say that, but would never say that. That's not what he said. And so I think there really has to be something to the claims that this whistleblower is making. At a minimum, it would warrant an investigation.

[Chris Hayes]

Let me play that line of questioning from Senator Schiff for you, Mark.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mark.

[Tim Miller]

Did you say anything of that kind in the meeting, Senator? I have no recollection of saying anything of that kind. To the extent I don't. You recall, Mr. Bovet, if you said or suggested during a meeting with Justice Department lawyers maybe they should consider telling the court you. It seems to me that would be something you'd remember. Unless that's the kind of thing you say frequently. Well, I've certainly said things encouraging litigators at the department to fight hard for valid positions that we have to take in defense. And have you frequently suggested that they say you and ignore court orders? Is that also something you frequently do, such you might not remember doing it in this occasion?

[Chris Hayes]

No.

[Tim Miller]

And as I explained, I have never directed. So did you or did you not make those comments during that meeting? Which comment, Senator? You really need me to repeat it? Did you suggest, as Mr. Rouveni wrote, that DOJ would need to consider telling the courts you and ignore any such court order? I did not suggest that there would be any need to consider ignoring court orders. At the point of that meeting, there.

[Chris Hayes]

Were no court orders to discuss. So this week is officially the fu week of Trump's second presidency. We heard it from the president. We heard it there three times from Adam Schiff in quoting a whistleblower Account of Mr. Bove. Your thoughts, Marcolias?

[Nicole Wallace]

Of course he said it. I mean, he said it because we have seen the Department of Justice disobey court orders and not literally swearing at judges, not, you know, not saying the F words of judges, but. But saying the lawyerly equivalent of that to judges all over the place. I mean, just today, we saw the Department of Justice file a lawsuit against every member of the judiciary, every federal judge in Maryland. Like we. We are ever, almost every day, certainly every week, experiencing and talking about, on this broadcast and elsewhere, about the unbelievable arrogance, the unbelievable disregard that. That DOJ lawyers are showing contempt they are showing towards individual judges, towards the judicial branch as a whole, making threats that maybe they don't need to follow court orders, that district court judges are exceeding their authority. I mean, we hear that from the president and the vice president. So of course he said it because he meant it like it's not like it slipped out. I mean, the only thing I kind of disagree with is that we're calling the person who witnessed this a whistleblower. A whistleblower assumes that Mr. Bovey was doing something contrary to the wishes of the administration and there had to be someone who stood up bravely. No, he was executing the position of the White House. He's executing the position of the Attorney General, he, you know, when Mr. Skoten, who as you recall was a conservative rock rib Republican prosecutor in the Southern District of New York, resigned as part of that Eric Adams thing, he, he, he wrote to Bovey and said that you will eventually find someone who is enough of a fool or enough of a coward to follow your motion, but it was never going to be me. Like, that was a conservative Republican saying that, knowing that Bovey would in fact find a fool and a coward to do that. So, yeah, like, of course it's true. He said it because it's one what this administration wanted him to be saying.

[Chris Hayes]

All right, no one's going anywhere. We need to fit a short break, but I do want to show you more of the pointed questioning he faced. And it happened today. Well, I'll be right back.

[Tim Miller]

Did you ever talk to Stephen Miller.

[Nicole Wallace]

Before you filed the memorandum on February 10 ordering the dismissal of the Adams charges?

[Tim Miller]

Senator, I responded to Senator Kennedy's questions based on a publicly filed document that described the Attorney General as a. Did you talk to Stephen Miller? I'm not going to describe the participants in conversations.

[Nicole Wallace]

So you won't answer that question?

[Tim Miller]

No, I will not send it. Why? Because it is not appropriate for me to discuss.

[Nicole Wallace]

It is appropriate for you to tell us whom you consulted before taking action on behalf of the United States of America. I am absolutely flabbergasted that you would come before this committee and refuse to tell us basic facts about a case that is at the core of the challenges to the appearance of impropriety that should disqualify you.

[Chris Hayes]

We're back with Mark and Christine. I mean, Mark, he's getting at the same issue. You just did that. The reason we know about the impropriety of the Eric Adams case is because Federalist Society conservative attorneys quit over it and told us all about it. What do you make of, you know, again, I don't know how this will end up, but if Republicans proceed and put Bobby on the bench, where are we?

[Nicole Wallace]

It's not good. I mean, you know, this is someone who was Donald Trump's personal lawyer.

[Sarah Longwell]

Lawyer.

[Nicole Wallace]

This is someone who was selected because he was Donald Trump's personal lawyer. And this is someone who, when he was at the Department of Justice, acted as if he was still Donald Trump's personal lawyer. You know, that's one of the big criticisms that I think we all need to, like, not accept as normal about this administration, is that Pam Bondi sort of sits around the Oval Office with Stephen Miller and yucks it up about throwing people In El Salvadorian gulags, there is no separation between Stephen Miller and the White House and the Department of Justice. And that is something that, you know, it was a. It was. The Republican Party, made it a national scandal when Bill Clinton went on a plane to say hello to the then Attorney General of the United States. Now there is a complete merging of the two. So where. What it means is that, you know, Emil Bovey is the canary in the coal mine. This is going to be the first court of appeals judge. Judge confirmed or not confirmed, but appointed and. But it's not gonna be the last. And they're all gonna look the same. They're not gonna necessarily look like Federalist Society types. They're gonna look like Donald Trump loyalists. And so that's what Donald Trump wants. And it's the reason why this is kind of such, like I said, kind of a weird quote unquote scandal, because in some respects, what Emil Bovey is doing, in other circumstances, they'd actually be bragging about.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, and we shouldn't. The story's not over. I mean, most Trump stories, they get there. We just have to wait for it. Marc Elias and Christy Greenberg, thank you for helping us cover these stories today. Another break for us. We'll be right back. For anyone worried about exactly how the pro democracy movement successfully maneuvers our country out of the this moment, I refer you to this week's episode of the Best People podcast and our conversation with the brothers behind the digital news empire, the Midas Touch. They are brilliant. They have all the answers. You can watch it now on YouTube or download this week's episode of the Best People. Wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful. Okay, we each owe 15 bucks.

[Basil Smikle]

Can you cover me?

[Nicole Wallace]

Payday can't come soon enough.

[Chris Hayes]

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[Tim Miller]

Wow, that sounds less like a bank and more like my new Go To.

[Nicole Wallace]

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