← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Near-naked corruption”
00:42:53
Nicolle Wallace on new polls showing American's disapproval of Donald Trump and the state of the redistricting effort.
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Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhl and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.
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The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
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Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
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B
Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in New York. Quote like a man trying to race upward on a downward moving escalator, that is how the Atlantic's David Frum describes Donald Trump right now, a flailing lame duck president dogged by questions surrounding his relationship with deceased sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and his administration's handling of the Epstein case. Facing falling approval ratings on practically every single issue. As the list of unfulfilled campaign promises from ending the war in Ukraine on day one to lowering the price of quote the grocery gets longer and longer by the day. Brand new polling from Ipsos and the Washington Post shows that Donald Trump is underwater on all of the major issues. Just 34% of Americans approve of his signature economic policy of tariffs. Just 40% of Americans approve of his overall handling of the economy. On immigration and crime, once a strong suit for Donald Trump, just 44% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. And this is important because it's the context right for Donald Trump's power grabs and near naked corruption. A rising resistance to Trump and his agenda affects the calculations of anyone who faces a conflict with him. And then a choice. Do they acquiesce to an increasingly unpopular president or do they fight? As David Frum puts it, quote Autocracies are headed by one man but require the cooperation of many others. Some collaborators may sincerely share the autocrats goals, but opportunists provide a crucial margin of support in the United States. Such people now have to make a difficult calculation. Do the present benefits of submitting to Trump's will outweigh the future hazards? Take for example, the return of Jimmy Kimmel. He was suspended in the wake of the Trump administration's public pressure campaign with the head of the FCC openly using mob like language when it told parent company Disney, quote, we can do this the easy way or the hard way, end quote. And now, hours, days later, Jimmy Kimmel's back on the air goes back on the air tonight in most of the country after a sudden and dramatic public outpouring, pressure placed on Disney. There were boycotts and cancellations from Disney and Hulu customers. There was condemnation from Hollywood unions. A litany of stars and celebrities and directors and writers and producers all spoke out at once publicly. All of that weighed on Disney before it reversed itself and announced Kimmel's return yesterday. It's just one example, just one data point in a pattern we've seen play out all year long. From millions of Americans who turned out at the no Kings protests to protests against Tesla, Tesla or organizing that led to that decisive victory in the Wisconsin Supreme Court race. Resistance to Donald Trump works and it's active and it's alive. And despite the pressure campaign and the climate of fear Donald Trump has created, it's actually growing. In Washington, D.C. right now. House Democrats are pushing back against Donald Trump as well. House Democrats are demanding funding for Obamacare subsidies as a government shutdown looms. Donald Trump, for his part, has canceled a scheduled meeting with Democratic leaders Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries scheduled for Thursday, making it more likely that a shutdown will take place seven days from today. An inflection point for the country and the coalition pushing back against Trump and his agenda and is where we start today with the House Democratic leader, Hakeem Jeffries of New York. Mr. Leader, thank you for being here.
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C
Good afternoon. Good to be with you.
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B
In the spirit of the public's work in making Disney reexamine their decision to pull Jimmy Kimmel off the air, what fight have you picked or have you led that you are most proud of or that you seek to sort of emulate on a day to day basis?
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C
Well, House and Senate Democrats stood shoulder to shoulder together in strong opposition, in fact, in unified opposition to the one big ugly bill that Donald Trump and Republicans jammed down the throats of the American people because it ripped away Medicaid. It was the largest cut to Medicaid in American history. It stole food from the mouths of hungry children, seniors and veterans. And all of this was, was being done to provide massive tax breaks to Republican billionaire donors. Now, legislatively, the Republicans bent the knee to Donald Trump as they always do, and they were able to sneak it through the House and the Senate. But the bill is deeply unpopular because the American people have now come to the conclusion that Donald Trump and Republicans have no interest in making their life better. In fact, they are hurting everyday Americans in order to reward their billionaire donors. And so this is an extension of that fight in terms of Democrats aggressively pushing back against Donald Trump's efforts to continue to gut the healthcare of the American people and threaten the American people with a painful government shutdown.
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B
So talk to me like I don't live in Washington and explain what this shutdown is about.
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C
So Republicans have a responsibility holding the majority in the House and the Senate and the presidency to make sure that the federal government can continue to run. They're in the majority now. It's our responsibility as Democrats to find common ground on a spending agreement if that spending agreement actually meets the needs of the American people. And we're in strong opposition to the partisan Republican spending bill. It's a dirty bill because it continues to gut the health care of the American people. And we're not simply going to go along to get along.
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B
So there's so much coverage and so much of our conversations and frankly, so much of what we pick up from voters that they want to see Democrats fight misses this point that I think you're making. They control the White House, right? They control the Republican members of the House and Senate. They don't buck Donald Trump in any way, shape or form. And they essentially, they're batting about 850 in the, in the Supreme Court. I think the Supreme Court has ruled for Donald Trump 19 times and against him twice. But they need you. They need you in this rare instance, in this, in this, if you live outside of Washington sort of obscure manner that to keep the government going, to keep it funding, they actually need you. You and Senator Schumer who are in the minority. What is the most that you can get from them in this rare instance that they need you?
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C
Well, what's important to understand, Nicole, is that Republicans have engaged in an unprecedented assault on the health care of the American people throughout this year. The largest cut to Medicaid in American history. Millions of people are going to lose coverage because of what Republicans have done. Hospitals and nursing homes and community based health clinics are already closing because of the one big ugly bill. They are refusing to extend the tax credits connected to the Affordable Care Act. What that means is that for more than 20 million Americans, they're going to experience in a matter of weeks increased health care premiums, co pays and deductibles. And the cost of living in America is already too high because of actions that Republicans have taken in connection with the one big ugly bill. The country actually faces a $536 billion cut to Medicare at the end of the year. And we know that Republicans have basically canceled medical research in the United States of America. So our position as Democrats is clear. Cancel the cuts, lower the cost, save health care. That's our fight that we're waging on behalf of the American people. And we're willing to sit down with anyone at any time, any place to try to actually get to a spending agreement that makes sense for the American people. But we're not going to simply bend the knee to Donald Trump's will when he's gutting health care for everyday Americans and actively hurting people. That's immoral and it's not something for us to participate in.
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B
So if he doesn't agree to back off the cuts, what will you do?
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C
Well, our view, listen, we voted no in the House and in the Senate on the partisan Republican spending bill that was before us on Friday because it continues to gut the healthcare of the American people. That's our public position and we haven't backed off that position in any way, shape or form. And the fact that Donald Trump has is running scared, would cancel this meeting shows that they know they have a weak position as it relates to the Republican health care crisis that they've created. So next week we were scheduled to be in session for votes on Monday and Tuesday and House Republicans canceled those votes. They don't even want to show up, even though we're on the brink of a government shutdown. But Democrats will be in town there, ready, willing and able to do our jobs and to also communicate with the American people. The stakes of this shutdown fight.
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B
If you had to, you know, prepare your members for what's ahead, what is your sense from your perch and all of your experience in Washington about what the coming days will hold?
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C
Well, it's going to be incredibly important. We're in the midst of a health care cost of living week of action where all across America, House Democrats partnering with Senate Democrats and governors are holding events related to health care costs, related to protecting our hospitals and nursing homes and community based health clinics, related to protecting Medicaid and related to making sure that the tax credits for the Affordable Care act continue. Because all of this matters for the well being and the health of the American people. Like this is not a fire drill. This is real in terms of what's happening right now related to the Republican assault on healthcare and the crisis they've created. And that's why Democrats have drawn a line in the sand as it relates to what's in front of the American people. And we're going to continue to make that clear. We can find bipartisan agreement, but it has to make sense for the quality of life of the American people. It has to lower costs. It has to protect the health care of everyday Americans.
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B
I had a victim of Jeffrey Epstein on my program yesterday and she described feeling like the effort to have the files released doesn't feel as partisan as a lot of other issues in the nation's capital. And I shared with her that the polls suggest it isn't. But I wonder what it feels like there. I mean, it seems in covering the efforts of Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna to release all of the files and to listen to the victims and try to recenter the debate around them that maybe there is some bipartisan momentum behind transparency. But then you hear the victims and you watch Alex Acosta and you watch Republicans seem to make excuses for him and other members of the Cabinet. I just wonder your thoughts on the efforts of centered around the victims for transparency in the Epstein files.
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C
Well, we're going to continue to charge forward on behalf of the victims and on behalf of everyday Americans who care about making sure that predators are held accountable, that there's full transparency and that whatever may be in the Epstein files is completely and totally released to the public so that folks can be held accountable in a manner consistent with what the victims have so powerfully asked to be done in this instance. Now, Democrats are going to swear in sometime soon in the Congress an additional member, which will bring us to 214. She will also represent, I think, the number that brings us to a majority in the House to trigger our ability to actually force the Trump administration to release the Epstein files. And so we're going to continue to partner with whatever enlightened Republicans want to partner with us, though we recognize as Democrats that we're going to have to carry the overwhelming load here because Donald Trump and the Trump administration, despite all of their promises throughout the years, are clearly trying to keep these files from becoming public.
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B
When Trump was president last time, Speaker Pelosi, and she was the speaker, Democrats were the majority. She seemed to relish going toe to toe with him on a daily basis. Do you relish the fight with Donald Trump?
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C
I think it's an incredibly important fight for the American people. And I'm just not clear why Donald Trump is backing away from that fight. He agreed to the meeting. We demanded it. On Saturday, Leader Schumer and I sent a letter laying out our position very clearly as it relates to government funding and the healthcare of the American people. He agreed to that meeting. We were prepared to go into that meeting and lay out our position. Cancel the cuts, lower the costs, save health care for everyday Americans and make very clear we are not down with the Republican healthcare crisis. And that's why this line in the sand has been drawn. That's an important fight for, for the American people. It's the right fight and it's the fight that as House Democrats, we certainly are committed to waging in this position that we're in right now with Republicans temporarily holding the gavels. But we also believe that we're going to change that dynamic next November. We're going to take back control of the House of Representatives and then we'll finally have a Congress that actually can function as a separate and co equal branch in government and a check on the out of control Trump administration as opposed to what the sycophantic Republicans are doing right now, which is to serve as nothing more than a rubber stamp. A rubber stamp over and over and over again for Donald Trump's extreme agenda.
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B
Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries, thank you very much for starting us off today.
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C
Thank you.
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B
I want to bring into our coverage pollster and president of Brilliant Corners Research, MSNBC political analyst Cornell Belcher is here and at the table listening along with me, Democratic strategist and Columbia professor, MSNBC political analyst Basil Smichel. It's so interesting, the different temperaments and personalities of all of the leaders of the Democratic Party. And he's got a litigator's sort of ability to build an argument around a single issue that he's prosecuting. And so he's incredibly disciplined. But you do sense that they've sort of lined things up for themselves that the public hates the bill. As the leader said there got this vehicle now that the White House actually needs something from them. For all the absolute power that Trump and his cabinet likes to project, they actually need the Democrats to keep the government going. And they seem to be in formation. But there is still a real reluctance to, as one former general said to me, you know, learn to love the brawl.
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D
Yeah, it is interesting because you did want him to say, of course I love this fight. I got millions of people behind me and they're supportive of the work that we're doing. And yeah, and I think in some ways that address addresses some of the concerns that some voters may have that they want to see that fight. But I tell you, when he talks about health Care. I think that's a good fight. I think that's a really strong fight.
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B
And it's post partisan. I mean, that's where Republicans, that's where Trump's losing Republicans, too.
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D
And there are two pieces to it. For me, there's a distributive aspect of it, which means that there's a lot of talking points around the fact that the White House, the administration and Republicans are not gonna fully fund everything they need to fund to keep Americans safe. But on the policies, safe and healthy. But on the policy side, you've RFK Jr. Who does not have clear policy, who is talking about stop taking Tylenol because it causes autism, which I don't know anyone that I've ever talked to or seen on my social feeds believe any of that. So there's this confusion on the one end, the lack of spending on the other end. And I think that's where I do think that's where Democrats and Akeem Jeffries do have an opening.
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B
Cornell, what do you think?
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E
I think I want to underline and illuminate something that my friend and Basil, who's a lot smarter than me, pointed out here. And that is the health care piece. You know, that is an area where Democrats don't have a lot of advantages, but is an area where American public trust Democrats more on health care. And look, Nicole, there was a lot of places where Democrats could have picked a fight and to lift up as the top issue in a fight, but they chose health care. And that was very, very strategic. And it's illuminating where they want to go on this fight. And casting this fight really about health care, I think is really smart, strategically, really, really smart thing for Democrats to be doing. And it better positions them going into the next midterm if in fact, Democrats make this a referendum on Trump, but also specifically a referendum that's about health care, because Democrats tend to do well around the issue of health care. And if health care is front and center, as a center of this debate, I think I like Democrats Overall chances, I will say that there's also, look, there's also a piece here that is about fighting that is different, I think, from you seen from the last shutdown time, because you do see the leadership here talking about fighting, talking about taking on Trump in a way that I did not hear the last time last time around. And they do have to sort of show some fight and show sort of what they won't back down from. And to a certain extent, from the left. There are some on the left, Nicole, who quite frankly, are fine with shutting it down because they want the fight so much.
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B
That's so interesting. Do you. It seems that that message has been received by the leader.
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E
Clearly it's been. Well, you've been telling him that every day on your show.
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B
But clearly he seemed, I mean, I guess what's so interesting and the reason I sought to tie the last four days news to some of the questions is the public is there was this, I think, narrative that seeped in after the election that everyone had turned off their TVs. I mean, I think Jimmy Kimmel proves that that is not true. Everybody knew that Kimmel had been taken off the air after someone from the Trump administration, even if they didn't know who Brendan Carr was, threatened him. And so whether you were Republican or not, it was weak. ABC looked incredibly weak. And I feel like there's a piece of that that Democrats have internalized, that they need to be seen as not just around the issue center. That is important. And that if that's, I understand that's the question that Democrats do well historically and right now, because the real fears are the cost of everything. But it is sort of the metabolism of being in the fight that Democratic voters and beyond are so hungry for. Cornell.
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E
Well, one quick thing here also is that, look, you just rattled off the polling numbers already, right. He's 19 points underwater on the economy. And that is just, that's amazing to me because Republicans have always had this big advantage on the economy. He's underwater on crime, he's underwater on immigration. Nicole, the emperor has no clothes. This is the time to sort of take him on and be in a fight with him because the American people are overwhelmingly not on board with the direction that they're taking the country.
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B
Yeah. And it is often when historically autocrats roll out their most brutal crackdowns is when their support among the public at its lowest. I need both of you to stick around ahead for us. From Kansas to Utah to Indiana, Missouri, the rush to gerrymander red states is very much underway. How Democrats are fighting back against Trump and his party's all out rigging of the game ahead of the midterms. And later in the broadcast, the news that broke as we were coming on the air yesterday, as we've been discussing tonight, is Jimmy Kimmel's return to the airways. But the fight is far from over, with some local station owners keeping him silenced over a big chunk of the American television audience. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Today.
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MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week, she said, sits down with legendary singer songwriter Joan Baez.
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B
In all my career I've said that social change cannot happen until somebody's willing.
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D
To take a risk.
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A
The best people with Nicole Wallace Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
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B
Ahead of Jimmy Kimmel's return to television tonight, the co host of the podcast Pivot, Scott Galloway, had this take on what this story in the Last reveals about our country and about the business community and Donald Trump. Listen.
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C
I'm now more emboldened, convinced that a national economic strike is the way to go here. Because what happened here was they started getting actors probably called and said, I'm not going to work with Disney. They saw thousands of screenshots being sent to them saying, okay, I'm canceling Hulu. This was about money. This has nothing to do with.
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B
Yeah, it happened to Target. As you know, same thing with their.
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C
This has nothing to do with Bob Iger talking to Jimmy Kimmel and saying, okay, this was, oh no, we up, we miscalibrated. We totally mistook, you know, we took the wrong temperature, we made the wrong decision. People are canceling their subscriptions, canceling their trips to Disney, canceling their movie. They're not going to work with us. It's going to hurt our share price. So all of a sudden we have found our testicles.
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B
I forgot the word testicles was in that clip, but I'm glad it was because I think that we cover the country one as though it's static and not that it's dynamic and not that it's reacting to every little thing. We also, I think can overindex for malaise because a lot of what Trump is doing to human beings is heinous. Tearing apart families, traumatizing children with mixed status households on the relentless ice raids. But I do think there is value in injecting the dynamic nature of something can change. They yank Jimmy Kimmel off the air and they put him back. People can acknowledge errors and the immense, almost singular power of the American people. I don't know who canceled their Disney. It took me a long time. I watched two videos to try to figure out how to cancel my. I mean, it is not easy to just go online. And a lot of people went through the steps. It's like canceling a gym membership. And a lot of people went through those steps and said, no, thank you. It is agency, it is power. And it resulted in change. What are you taking from that, Cornell, and trying to project onto sort of the way you're doing politics right now?
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E
I take it that people still have power. And when you look at how like this existential dread has washed over so many millions and millions of Americans and they somehow feel somewhat defeated and the desire to pull back. And we've heard that in and folks groups and we've seen that in data where people are trying to pull back. They still have to understand that they have power. Right. The majority of Americans aren't in line with the draconian and authoritarianism policies that we see going across the country. And Nicole, one of the things that is so connected and it correlates with turnout and participation politically is this ideal that you actually have the power to bring about change, that your vote counts, your voice counts. It has power and a collective power. Right. So to me, the biggest part of this story that we should uplift here is that when that ordinary Americans, you have the power to change this dynamic to your point is not static. You have the power to change this dynamic when you simply stand up and. And take action. And I think that's something we've got to push out there and we've got to remind the millions and millions of Americans that they don't have to sit back and take this. They have the power to bring it down.
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B
I think the other thing about business, and you know, we've been sitting here for enough of my exasperated interviews with people. Why is the business community on the sidelines as our country moves from a democracy to something either autocratic or on the way to autocracy? And I still don't totally understand the reason, because companies are run by people who are some of the most successful people in the world because of the opportunities this country has given them. It seems they'd be invested in our country remaining a democracy. But they are responsive both to the immediate loss of profit, but also the brand damage. And I hadn't seen that yet. That felt new.
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D
Well, I think one of the reasons they may have stayed on the sidelines because there was a sense that they could ride it out until there's a money issue. And to your point earlier, in terms of people making a decision to cancel, you realize you cancel Disney, you gotta cancel Hulu. And by the way, I can't watch my sports clips on espn cuz they own that too. And I think that's why that sort of oligox tour does resonate, because you realize that there are a handful of people in this world that have so much control over your lives and a lot of them are friends with Donald Trump. And you start to think about like, wait a minute, what agency, to Cornell's point, what agency do we really have and how can we connect with each other without actually being online to do it? And you know, the Congressional Black Caucus is meeting this week with their legislative conference, trying to figure out a path forward. I can't go because I'm going to Shimon county in upstate New York to talk to leaders there. The county seat is Elmira. It's the summer home of Mark Twain where he wrote Huckleberry Finn. But that county has had Republican leaders for 50 years. And they want to know how do we move forward, how do we bind with and connect with people across the state to find a path forward with each other? And I think that's where if there's a doom and gloom and there's a silver lining in it, it's that people are trying to find these avenues to connect with each other and kind of create that resistance one county at a time, if you will.
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B
Well, and the purpose, I mean, I think people, to your point, there's a whole lot that Disney and Hulu, if you watch TV through Hulu, and people were willing to give it up for a greater good, for the greater good of saying the federal government is going to tell us who we can have on the air and on our television. That's right. Cornell, thank you for starting us off today. It's nice to see you, my friend. Up next for us, fighting fire with fire, it's how Democrats are approaching the GOP scheme to rig the elections ahead of the midterms. And the entire map drawing process to gain more congressional seats will show you what that looks like and how Democrats are fighting back. Next, I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody. If you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to to bend the arc toward that end result.
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Deadline. White House with Nicole Wallace Weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.
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B
With Republicans across our country engaged in an all out frantic push to cement Donald Trump's power with their mid decade redistricting efforts aimed at increasing Republican seats in the House, some Democrats are choosing to go on offense and do everything they can do to fight fire with fire. Take California Governor Gavin Newsom, for example, who turned the GOP script against them and introduced his own redistricting plan to shore up Democratic seats in the House. Governor Newsom's tactic is gaining notable support from former Vice President Kamala Harris. Here's what she told my colleague Rachel Maddow last night.
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F
But let me say about what he is doing with redistricting, it is absolutely the right way to go. Part of what we've got to, I think, challenge ourselves to accept is that we tend to play by the rules. But I think this is a moment where you got to fight fire with fire. And so what Gavin is doing, what the California legislature is doing, what those who are supporting it are doing to say, you know what you want to play, then let's get in the field, let's get in the arena and let's do this. And I support that.
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B
Joining our conversation, voting rights attorney, founder of Democracy docket, Mark Elias Basil is still with me at the table. Mark, what did you think of that?
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G
Look, I'm glad that Kamala Harris is in the fight. It's no surprise. She has been a strong voice for voting rights from her time in the Senate. She actually introduced one of the bills that became the predecessor to the Freedom of the Vote act when she was a senator. And it is exactly right that now is the time that we need to fight hard. You know, we need to fight by the rules, but we need to use every rule available to us. You know, I came on your show before California announced what it was going to do and I said that I thought California ought to draw nine districts, which is every Republican. I thought New York ought to drive seven districts, which is every Republican. I thought that we totally, that Democrats ought to go forward in every state they could and target 30 Republican seats. Because here's the thing, Nicole, if we target 30 Republican seats, we might have headed off the five that they were going to do in Texas. Now we're playing catch up, but it is still good to see that we are fighting as hard as we can.
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B
Let me show you, Mark, what Governor Josh Shapiro said about this issue as well.
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C
I'm a father of four, so I guess I'll go to the old doctrine of a parent, parent uses with their kids of, you know, well, he started it, right? I mean, how many times have you heard that? And I don't want to make light of this, but the truth is he started it. Donald Trump, Greg Abbott, when they decided to rig this election, take a voice away from voters in Texas, create maps that are just simply unfair and designed to keep the Republicans in power in the US House.
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G
And so I think that leaves other.
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C
Governors in other states that have the ability to go and look at their maps, you know, in the mid census years here, and do what they need to do to fight back.
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B
I think I heard a yes. And he's pretty careful with his words. Mark, is there any resistance from Democratic governors in Democratic led states to doing this?
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G
I think there is some resistance. I mean, I think a lot of the governors are trying to figure out, you know, how to do this. But I think some of them are looking at the politics of their states and saying, look, we're doing further distribution, wouldn't be popular among some of our incumbents. It might not be popular among some segments of the voters. And you know, I think that that all has to be set aside. I mean, the fact is that Donald Trump didn't start this with redistricting. Donald Trump started this with the big lie. Donald Trump continued this by putting people like Pam Bondi into the Department of Justice, by putting Harmeet Dhillon into the Civil Rights division in justice, by trying to pass executive orders to undermine free and fair election elections, by saying that he's going to issue further executive orders to ban mail in voting, to ban certain voting equipment, and to take over the counting and tabulation of ballots. Donald Trump has no plans for there to be free and fair elections in 2026. There will be elections, but he doesn't want them to be free and fair. Redistricting is only one part of it. And every Democrat, whether they are an elected Democrat, whether they're a governor, a senator, a House member or a local city councilman, or whether they are watching out there right now, every one of us has to do everything in our power to protect democracy.
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B
I mean, it shapes up Basel as a real David versus Goliath in that Republicans control everything. As I said, I think of the 19 cases to make it to the Supreme Court, Trump has prevailed in all of two questions that they've asked the Supreme Court. There are far more Republican led states than Democratic led states, even though the Democratic led ones are larger. How do you assess this fight and how do you assess people's sort of awareness of it?
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D
So I take Mark's point, and I think it's a very important one. It didn't start with redistricting and it won't end with redistricting.
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B
Right.
- [36:12]
D
It is part of a larger plan. And I've used the term apartheid state in the way that this is unfolding. Because if you start isolating Democratic districts within Republican districts, Democratic neighborhoods within Republican districts, what are those neighborhoods going to get? The whole purpose is to make sure that whatever is happening from DC Filters down to state and local government. That means that folks that represent people that look like me are going to get nothing. They're going to get nothing. And maybe one of the ways that Democrats can create a narrative around this fight if they're uneasy about it, is to say we're redistricting because that's the only thing that's going to save your health coverage. We're redistricting because that's the only way that we're going to create some equity in the system. Whatever the case is, find a way to create the narrative to make people less scared to take up this fight because folks want you to take up this fight. I even get playing by the rules, although does that even matter anymore when Donald Trump doesn't play by the rules?
- [37:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, man, I get a whole lot of just anecdotal. But Democrats want their leaders to fight. They have internalized some of the message on the other side that this is, you know, a fight to save our country, but they believe it is a fight to save our country from all the threats to democratic norms and want to see people fighting. No one's going anywhere. I want to come back to you, Mark, on something you said about the rule of law. We'll do that. On the other side of a break.
- [37:45]
F
We have seen this week evidence of someone who I'm sure didn't vote for me. And we may disagree on a whole lot of other stuff, but he had the courage to stand up and say he's going to follow his oath and do what is ethically right. So let's take heart and hope that others within the Department of Justice will see that that is, you know, have a, have something that steers their conscience. But, you know, I mean, let's not also be distracted by the fact that there are going to be the career people who understand that. But then. And Trump is appointing people to these positions who have no experience as a prosecutor, and the closest they have to it is their experience defending him against crimes and are now sitting behind the desk making decisions about who should be charged with what. So it is a scary time. I don't mean to suggest otherwise, but there are these moments that we should also take note of.
- [38:45]
C
Yeah.
- [38:46]
B
So Margaret lies. I think she's speaking about Mr. Siebert from the Eastern District of Virginia, who was basically pushed out of the Department of Justice last Friday after he refused to bring a case against Tish James and didn't find adequate evidence to bring a case against Jim Comey. After interviewing witnesses, I wonder what you make of her lifting that up as an important thing to she said take note of.
- [39:18]
G
Look, I think that her point is correct, that, you know, we need to count on nonpartisan law enforcement and administration of justice by the Department of Justice. I think she's also right in that this puts the career people in very difficult circumstances. I think if I disagree with her on anything, and this is a disagreement I've had with many, many Democrats, is by the time that, you know, Mr. Siebert decided not to prosecute the case, he had conducted an investigation into something that never should have been investigated. So, you know, I'm not going to say that he did the wrong thing and not bringing an indictment, but, you know, it is cold comfort to people to say you will have, you know, your lives turned upside down through a criminal investigation. You will have witnesses interviewed. You will have potentially search warrants executed like we saw with John Bolton, that we that you will see that you will suffer all of the uncertainties and sleepless nights and costs of lawyers that come with that because a bunch of prosecutors are trying to placate Donald Trump along the way. And this was the same criticism I lodged, by the way, around some of the folks at Main justice, as you recall, who, after courageous prosecutors in the Southern District of New York refused and were courageous to dismiss the cases against Eric Adams, they were willing to take half steps, but not the full step. You know, these half steps wind up accumulating into full steps, but before long. And so it is not enough to say that innocent people are not indicted. Innocent people should not be investigated.
- [40:49]
B
I mean, Margaret, it is this adaptive brain, though, right? In the trauma that is Donald Trump's war against the rule of law in America, we adapt ourselves with two little lullabies. One, the courts will hold, and two, good people do the right thing. But to your point, I mean, it shouldn't, you know, sort of what Bill Barr did. He went along with everything Trump wanted up to and excluding the insurrection, where the mission statement seemed to be, to quote, hang Mike Pence. What is your sense, though, of what's on the other side of the resignation of Mr. Siebert in the wake of Donald Trump's response, which was to tweet at Pam, you know, basically get to it.
- [41:32]
G
I mean, what's on the other side of it is that Donald Trump wants Tish James indicted and he will go through, you know, however many prosecutors he needs to, to get that achieved. And same with Jim Comey, and the same with, I'm sure, many, many others. You know, for every one of these that he accidentally or maybe intentionally sends to the public, how many more private messages are there around other individuals who he wants to see investigated, their lives ruined and potentially indicted? Let's not forget that in between, you know, Mr. Siebert and the current nominee for U.S. attorney, there was another woman who played a cameo role. Lord knows why she came and went so fast. Maybe she indicated something other than full throated endorsement of bringing frivolous indictments. I have no idea. But what I do know is this, is that we cannot lionize people for doing mostly the right thing, you know, simply because you mostly stand up against what Donald Trump wants is not, is not good enough. We need people who are going to stand up against what Donald Trump asks them to do 100% of the time. Which is the reason why I do give kudos to the prosecutors in the Southern District of New York who simply yielded no ground. But I, but I am, you know, I'm pleased compared to the alternatives, but, but I am. But I think we have to be careful about where we, who we laud.
- [42:53]
B
You get the last word.
- [42:54]
D
I laughed a little bit when Mark made that comment because I remember Chris, Chris Rockline from 20 years ago. He said, you never get Chris for doing the right thing. And yes, I think to some extent, if you're a career prosecutor, if you're in government right now and you see something, say something. Yeah, absolutely right. But the concern that I think we've been talking about this whole show is the human cost of the anticipatory obedience and the ruthless coercion that the administration levies on the American people. And there are folks that are reaching out to say, what do we do now? What do we do next? And I think about the folks that are on the front line, but I also think about the pipeline. How do we encourage people to get into these jobs, to get into these roles, to even go to law school to say, look, it's worth it if you go, because you can actually still fight for something. So we all have a lot of work to do to make sure that if we actually are concerned about the future of these institutions, that we grow the people, we need to be in those in the future to be able to be conscientious in their work.
- [44:01]
B
Mark Elias, thank you for joining us today. Bezos. Michael, thank you for being here for the whole hour. Up next for us, an outrageous story around the United Nations General assembly today, a foiled plot that could have shut down cell phone service throughout New York City. We'll explain next as world leaders gather in New York City for the United Nations General Assembly. The US Secret Service says it discovered more than 100,000 SIM cards and 300 servers capable of shutting down cell phone networks. The devices were found in multiple sites in the Tri State area surrounding New York City. The Secret Service leads security for the UN meetings that are taking place this week. From NPR's reporting, the Secret Service's director described the potential for damage this way as, quote, significant, ranging from disabling regional cell phone towers to facilitating communications between criminals and foreign adversaries. The network could also likely be used for espionage. The agency has not yet identified who it believes is responsible for placing the devices or if there are any ties to any foreign countries. We'll stay on top of that story. Ahead for us, much more on the return of Jimmy Kimmel later tonight. The next hour deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.