← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Never before had Donald Trump faced this level of anger and backlash"
00:46:10
Nicolle Wallace on calls for the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files becoming an undeniable rift in the GOP that will not go away.
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- [00:00]
Jimmy Uso
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- [00:31]
Chris Hayes
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week, my podcast why Is this Happening? The next episode of our special miniseries, the AI Endgame. I'm speaking with author and AI critic Ed Zitron about why he says this will all end in a fiery apocalypse.
- [00:43]
Ed Zitron
The AI bubble is a symptom of a larger problem with the software industry. The hypergrowth era is ending. We have seen software as this thing will always grow exponentially. So every single bubble is looked at it through the same lens. You say Metaverse will grow exponentially. NFTs will take over all culture. We won't buy physical things anymore. Everything seems through the growth at all cost mindset. And I think we're coming to the close of it.
- [01:06]
Chris Hayes
Why is this happening? The AI End game? Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:17]
Nicole
It's insulting our intelligence. Like, obviously the intelligence community is trying to cover it up. Obviously the Trump administration is trying to cover up something changed because they ran on this idea of exposing it all. I believe the country deserves transparency in these files.
- [01:31]
Jimmy Uso
When you have this one hardcore line in the sand that everybody had been talking about forever and then they're trying
- [01:37]
Simone Sanders Townsend
to gaslight you on that.
- [01:39]
Chris Hayes
How many of you are not satisfied
- [01:41]
James Comer
with the results of the investigation?
- [01:49]
Nicole
Oh, hi again, everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. Never before in his political life had Donald Trump dealt with this. Never before had he faced anger, this much anger and backlash from his loyal faithful MAGA coalition, and especially that hardcore base. Calls for the release of the Epstein files became the undeniable first rift, the original sin that will not and would not go away. And any attempt to quell the furor and the appetite of his core supporters only enraged them even more. In a breathtaking new piece of reporting published in New York magazine, adopted from reporting for an upcoming book called Regime Change, journalists Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan reveal a White House rocked and Completely thrown off by indecision and concern. As they navigated what to do with the Epstein files, they write this quote, behind the scenes, the Epstein crisis was paralyzing the Trump administration to a far greater extent than the public knew. In their public statements, Trump's advisors were full of bravado, dismissing the crisis. But in reality, it was consuming the highest ranks of the administration. As no issue had for the President's team since the Russia investigation in his first term, his aides were determined to keep their rising sense of panic out of public view. Among the astonishing revelations, how the famous secluded location where numerous national security crises have been handled. The White House situation room. That became a frequent spot to hash out the political impact of Donald Trump's relationship with a dead, convicted child sex predator. Quote. As the calls for transparency grew louder, the top ranks of the Trump administration spent even more time in the bunker. By now, the situation room itself had become inseparable from the crisis, a guarded space where Trump's inner circle worked to steer the President around a scandal that would soon taint or consume careers at the highest levels of business, science, and politics. The new reporting, the result of more than 1,000 interviews, many given anonymously, goes into great detail about fissures among Justice Department officials about how to handle the fallout, including a massive fight between then Attorney General Pam Bondi and Dan Bongino, the deputy director of the FBI. They write this, quote, the day the memo was released, Bongino showed up to a daily Justice Department meeting with the FBI staff and the Attorney general. He was in a volcanic mood. As soon as he entered the room, he erupted at Pam Bondi, shouting at her. You effed this thing up from the start. Bongino yelled, quote, the way you've been talking about this, that dumb effing charade with the Epstein files, the files there on my desk, nonsense, all the promises to the folks out there. Patel and Bongino both subsequently told a White House official that Pam Bondi needed to resign. Yet looming over all of these discussions, Haberman and Swan write, there was one major obstacle in the path of a solution. The President himself still had no interest in transparency. He wanted the whole Epstein issue buried, and he was snapping at anyone who mentioned it. His staff largely avoided the subject in their conversations with him, forced to worry among themselves. New York Times notes that in response to requests for comment, a White House spokeswoman repeated Trump's claims he was innocent in all Epstein related matters. The chaos and panic inside the White House over the Jeffrey Epstein files is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Puck News senior political columnist and national affairs analyst John Heilman is here, so buckle up. Also joining us, political analyst former Senator Claire McCaskill is here. I should just say Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman, two of the most prolific and well sourced reporters in this area. This is from their new book, Regime Change. And this is a book based on 1,000 interviews. Heilman, your first impressions of this?
- [06:09]
John Heilman
Well, my first impressions, Nicole, were, are that this book is going to be a big deal. It's out in a couple weeks. And you'll recall I was on set with you the day when a piece was published that was not a direct excerpt from the book, but that was based in, in, in Maggie and Jonathan's incredibly well sourced reporting about the run up to the war in Iran. And we spent a fair amount of time talking about what an extraordinarily vivid picture that they painted of all the participants in that debate and the role of Bibi Netanyahu and so on. This story in the Times that is an actual excerpt from the book has every one of those hallmarks of authenticity, credibility, detail and vividness that we saw in that earlier reporting, only more so. And the top line thing, I'll say, and we can get into all of this more deeply later, but just merely the fact that, that throughout this excerpt that the White House Situation Room, which we knew there had been some meetings related to Jeffrey Epstein, but we didn't know that the White House Situation Room through much of last summer was really ground zero for the war room that they assembled effectively to try to deal with the metastasizing crisis that the Epstein files created for Donald Trump. And the piece has amazingly vivid detail. I mean, just, you know, the, the amount of, of, of dialogue quoted that, that I find very difficult to imagine this going to be rebutted by anybody. Probably people will call in, the administration will call it fake news, but when you read it, it has that kind of novelistic detail that just rings of, especially with the credibility of these reporters, that rings of truth and, and the picture that it paints of JD Vance and all the players in Donald Trump's inner circle in this period going into the Situation Room repeatedly to try to deal with this. I mean, I know, you know, what, you know, what the hallowed ground the Situation Room is and what the Situation Room is normally used for. The idea that it was used primarily in this case as essentially a communications war room to deal with a strictly political crisis that had to do with the president of the United States and threatened his presidency is an amazing thing. And, and, and, and there again, we'll talk, I'm sure, in this block about the details that are in it, but it is just mind bending and it does, in its largest sense, the story gives a lot of credibility to the notion that up until this moment, when the Epstein files became the major story that it became, Donald Trump was riding about as high as he had ever ridden in the White House. And this was the beginning of what turned out to be a year of unraveling for Donald Trump. And it paints a very, like I say, an extraordinarily vivid and damning picture, I would say, of the people around Donald Trump and some of the suggestions that they put out in those meetings for how to deal with it, almost none of which had anything to do with what was right, what did justice to the victims. It was all about, as everything else in this White House, is how to protect Donald Trump and limit the political fallout.
- [09:13]
Nicole
Yeah, I mean, Claire, in terms of what was public facing to us, right, we saw Todd Blanche go sit with Ghislaine Maxwell. And I remember seeing Chris Christie on ABC News say it was unheard of for a deputy attorney general to do that and not take anyone and not release an audio. Well, the piece makes clear that none of the meetings in the sit room, and I have a theory about why they were in the sit room. I think they were hiding from Donald Trump. I think these were meetings that they needed to have without. I mean, a lot of their gathering seems to happen in the Oval, which has been described as Grand Central, but you've got to go down a really skinny set of stairs or an elevator, which is also pretty little. I think they were having these meetings down there probably earlier in the morning so that he wouldn't stumble into them. I want to read a little bit more from the piece, though, about J.D. vance, Claire, which Heilman mentioned. The Vice President appeared panicked to others in the room about the way the subject of Epstein was already dividing the MAGA coalition. Some senior officials have the impression that J.D. vance had bought into the darkest theories about Epstein and a cabal of predators hidden within the country's ruling class. Susie Wiles would tell others that the VP had proved himself to be a major conspiracy theorist. Vance was privately pressing for the administration to release all the Epstein files, everything in DOJ's possession, even encouraging a congressional investigation. J.D. vance had also floated to colleagues an extraordinary PR gambit that the White House enlists Tucker Carlson to interview Epstein's longtime girlfriend and co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell in prison and might help the president if Maxwell was willing to state that Trump had not been part of any wrongdoing with Epstein. What's interesting is that J.D. vance is right about what would happen politically, that there would be a congressional investigation, but he's wrong about what would happen with Maxwell. It's actually Todd Blanche, Trump's man on the inside, that would go sit down with Maxwell. And the interview was not broadcast or released publicly. And I guess we don't know all the reasons why not. We can guess, Claire.
- [11:24]
Claire McCaskill
Well, yeah, listen, the interesting thing about JD Vance here is there are two times that it has been very obvious and it's even more obvious now with this reporting that he really disagreed with the Trump administration's position with one is the release of the Epstein files and two, is the Iran war. And if you look at those two things, those are largely responsible for the erosion of Trump's numbers in his own party. It is those two things where he has dramatically gone back on campaign promises to one, expose the Epstein files and two, not get into wars. So JD Vance, his political instincts are correct here. Unfortunately, he has no power and clearly the president doesn't respect his opinion because he's not listening. And yeah, they were in the Sit Room because they wanted to avoid Donald Trump. Who knew that the Sit Room was going to be the hallowed place where we talked about sex scandals that the President was afraid of coming out in public. And clearly there's only one reason this stuff hasn't been released. It's not protecting the innocent. It's not him worrying about the victims. It is just Donald Trump. There is stuff in this file and the article even references some of it. It's weird to be talking about nipples in the Deadline White House show, but they were talking about it in the Sit Room over Donald Trump's proclivity to have certain sexual activity with some of these girls. So this isn't going away. It will continue to be a deal. And now this book is going to open it up again. Along with Gates testifying, we've still got other people in Epstein's orbit that are going to have to testify. And at the end of the day, they have done so much more damage. As always, the COVID up is always worse than the crime. In this case, I'm not sure.
- [13:27]
Nicole
Yeah, Halman, we had you pinned as the person who would bring up the nipple clip, but it was Claire. I will share that with our viewers if they haven't gotten this far in the New York New York Mag. Excerpt from the book, quote, some of Trump's advisors in the Situation Room had never heard of the nipple claim those who had seemed to have only had a passing familiarity with it. Many in the room thought this was all just discredited nonsense. The Vice President said he thought the President would be okay with releasing the nipple related documents, arguing that Trump had been accused of worse. Quote, I think we should put it out. He said, quote, it would cause people to say we're going further than we need to. Susie Wiles quickly responded that the President would not, in fact be okay with it. It was a point no one wanted to continue debating. One official would later describe it as surreal, a surreal experience to be discussing nipples in the White House sit room. And Hal and I only said we thought you'd bring this up because you always take us right to the bone of a gritty piece of new reporting. And that's what this is. I mean, there's the nipple anecdote, but there's also Dan Bongino's fiery, explosive rebuke, I guess is the right word for it, of Pam Bondi's handling of this publicly. Bongino says this. I'll tell you what, I'll give you $100,000 cash right now. I'm not kidding. Walk out to Westexec, put the reporter on speaker and get him to admit I leaked it. $100,000. This is when he's accused of leaking about something sensitive related to how they were handling the Epstein files. Your thoughts on the source of calculations they were making? And I think Suzy Wiles is probably more right than J.D. vance about what Donald Trump would tolerate in terms of disclosure
- [15:21]
John Heilman
in terms of nipple related material. Nicole, is that what you're saying, what he would tolerate?
- [15:26]
Nicole
I don't know any of these people and I actually wasn't familiar with the nipple content. But my sense is that Susie Wiles is probably more in line with what Donald Trump would say about releasing the nipple content.
- [15:42]
John Heilman
I just want to say how delighted I am for once to have someone on this program, and particularly that is Claire, who's like normally just a model of decorum in decorum. To have Claire be the one who would go to the most salacious thing in the story instead of me. I feel really good. It's a win for me today in that regard. There are two larger points I have to say. I just want to credit Maggie and Jonathan again, because this is not. If you read this chapter, that's the excerpt. It's not just a string of juicy anecdotes. It also creates this larger context. And I think that's why the book is going to be both explosive and also, at least for what the period of time that it's covering, maybe like the definitive account of that first year of Trump 2.0. And it's because it weaves the context and the details together. So, you know, we just talked about J.D. vance. It does really show both, as Claire pointed out, the Iran story and this story both point out really two things. One is that JD Vance is acutely sensitive and is it is largely his instincts are right, at least with respect to knowing what is about to happen or is happening that threatens the MAGA coalition and therefore threatens his presidential prospects. And in both cases, his instincts about what to do politically to limit that damage turned out to be correct. And I think it's not just that he doesn't have power, as Claire pointed out. Again, it's one of the most damning things about all this reporting is that none of these people, the vice president, United States, his national security adviser in the case of Iran, where Marco Rubio, his CIA director, John Ratcliffe, who thought the Iran idea, some of the things Bibi was saying about how easily it was, how easy it was all going to be, was all ludicrous, right? None of them walk into the room with Donald Trump and say, Mr. President, you know what? I think you're getting bad advice here. This, this is what I would recommend. Let me make the case to you. We never see reporting about that because that does not happen. And it's not just as I said, the Beij events is powerless, is that he has no voice or he has no balls or some combination of those two things. To go into Donald Trump and just sit and say, I'm your vice president, sir, here's why I think what we're doing is a mistake to your. The other point about Dan Bongino is just to say again, details and context in this reporting. What the, what this chapter makes really evident is how much the Epstein story was further complicated for the administration by the fact that so many of the people who came into the administration, the Dam Bonginos, the world, the Cash Patel is of the world, others who had long espoused conspiracy theories before they came into the White House, they all had their own personal baggage and their own personal equities that they brought in. And the fact that they were all not only trying to deal with the president's politics and maybe JD Manza's politics, they had their own personal politics that they were dealing with, which made it all the more kind of pitched. You see, all this infighting is because none of these people walked in the door, you know, as kind of committed public servants who are trying to do the best they could for their party and their president. They all had money, publicity, brands, fame that they built on the back of bullshit conspiracy theories. And now they're starting to be confronted with the realities that lined up with some of them and the realities that diverted for some of them, and they had to now find themselves in the middle of that chaos. And you know what, Nicole? In a White House scandal. It's hard enough to navigate a real big White House scandal when only the President's equities are involved, but when all the players around the President are also trying to protect themselves and potentially their future, earning power and their credibility in the manosphere and all these other things. It's part of why this picture of chaos and the. And some of the crazy suggestions that get made, it explains all of that, that Donald Trump, by putting these people in his White House, was kind of setting a time bomb off on the Epstein files. And you can really see clearly the way in which it exploded here in what ultimately were kind of predictable ways. But, boy, I mean, this was a long fuse that ultimately really blew up in his face.
- [19:49]
Nicole
I mean, Claire, I came to the end of the piece and thought, wow, the legislation that made it the law of the land to release the files was not inevitable. And it only when you've got the entire power structure of the country locked up in the sit room to keep something secret. And you repel the Deputy Director of the FBI who has a different opinion, and you ignore the Vice President of the United States of America who argues for releasing the nipple content.
- [20:18]
Tyler Redick
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- [20:39]
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- [20:45]
Chris Hayes
Artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it is. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes, and as part of my podcast, why is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.
- [21:00]
Julia Jester
We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.
- [21:06]
Chris Hayes
Why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now. Start listening today, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:15]
Nicole
There is a really, really, really good chance that that stuff never sees the light of day. And but for the survivors going out to the Capitol, going into congressional offices, the Democrats and Republicans walking those halls, coming on shows like this, taking abuse, taking threats, having their children threatened, having their lives threatened, being harassed, being billed for their legal services, but for them, this could have all stayed in the Sit room.
- [21:46]
Claire McCaskill
Yeah, and by the way, it's all not out yet. There's still stuff that has not been released. And so they're violating the law. And I hope when Todd Blanche stands for confirmation that some of the senators are strong enough to confront him with the reality of the botched release of the Epstein files, the victims deserve no less. And I hope that happens. Back to a little bit about J.D. you know, John, I think the reason he's not walking into the Oval Office and trying to convince the president has a whole lot to do with the dichotomy that Trump has set up between him and Marco Rubio. I think he, first of all, he ought to call Mike Pence and see how that worked out. But secondly, he knows that the minute he starts pushing back against Trump, that just pushes Trump into the arms of Marco Rubio. And right now, the only chance either one of those guys have to ever be president, United States, is to be endorsed by Donald Trump. Now, I would argue that that wouldn't even get a dub, but he has no chance about it. So I think he is, once again, he's more worried, like you kind of reference on Bongino, he was worried about his money and how he was going to make money when he left the FBI because his audience was falling away because of this stuff around Epstein. Same thing with J.D.
- [23:15]
Nicole
vance.
- [23:15]
Claire McCaskill
He's thinking about himself now. He's in the right White House to do it because all that White House does is think about themselves and not the country. But it is really interesting, this Rubio Vance thing that's been set up and you notice that Rubio managed to stay far away from this. You know, Rubio's fingerprints are nowhere near any of this stuff. So it'll be interesting in the book how the Rubio thing plays out behind the scenes, which clearly these two reporters have access to.
- [23:48]
Nicole
Claire McCaskill and John Heilman, the only two people I wanted to have this conversation with. Thank you so much for starting us off. When we come back, a Democrat on the House Oversight Committee on how they were keeping this story in the Jeffrey Epps investigation very much alive and centered on the survivors, especially in light of these extraordinary new revelations from deep inside the White House sit room. Also ahead, the despair and dismay felt by dozens of African American military leaders who have spent decades wearing the uniform of our country and serving our country. What they are experiencing right now, what they are feeling right now under the leadership of former Fox News Weekend Anchorage Pete Hegseth. And after the absolute train wreck at 60 Minutes, CBS News's MAGA friendly editor in chief is getting another job. She's one step closer to adding another major international news organization to her portfolio. Why Bari Weiss is closer than ever to taking complete editorial control of cnn. Headline White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [24:58]
John Heilman
I'm communicating with the Department of Justice. I would like for Todd Blanch to come in in July. Well, he's got, he's got, you know, I think we all know he has a big confirmation coming up. So but I've always wanted Blanche to come in.
- [25:18]
Nicole
Maybe he should come in before that big confirmation. I don't know. Just a thought. That was the chairman of the House Oversight Committee, James Comer today calling for the acting attorney general, Todd Blanche, to appear before his committee next month. The committee has been holding hearings as part of the Epstein investigation and today they met behind closed doors with Bill Gates. Joining our coverage, Congressman James Walkinshaw of Virginia, one of the Democrats who sits on the House Oversight Committee, which has been pivotal in keeping the investigation into Jeffrey Epstein moving forward. I want to say something that's not TV edited, but you know, kicking butt and taking names in terms of disclosure for the survivors. And, you know, we just covered what has been reported by Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan as part of their new book regime Change. I wonder if you learned anything and what you've seen reported from their new book.
- [26:07]
James Comer
Yeah, it was astounding to read the behind the scenes of the COVID up that I think we all could see from the outside. Right?
- [26:16]
Nicole
Yeah.
- [26:17]
James Comer
I mean, from Donald Trump refusing to release the files, the weird July 2025 unsigned DOJ memo saying there's nothing to see here. Epstein didn't blackmail anybody. Case closed to, you know, the Situation Room where they were browbeating Republicans who were prepared to vote to release the files. We've seen the COVID up from the outside, but to see the blow by blow behind the scenes Description of it was pretty astounding.
- [26:46]
Nicole
Are you familiar with the content that JD Vance describes as the nipple content that he advocated releasing?
- [26:54]
James Comer
I had heard of that. I had not read it myself, but I had heard of it, yeah.
- [26:58]
Nicole
Have you seen whatever, I don't know, 302s or accounts or do you know what actual material and files correlates to what JD Vance is talking about there?
- [27:10]
James Comer
I had only had that described to me. I think others have perhaps seen those redacted files, but I have not seen them myself.
- [27:20]
Nicole
I mean, it just to me makes me wonder how much is still being kept hidden by the Trump administration.
- [27:30]
James Comer
Yeah, look, we know there's 3 million ish files still not released. And Todd Blanche and Pam Bondi say, well, those were just duplicate files. And my view is release them and let the country judge whether they're duplicate files or not. Right. We can no longer trust anything that this administration says about the documents they're in possession of. So release the 3 million that are unreleased, unredact the illegal redactions, including some I've seen myself that are claiming clearly redacted just to prevent Donald Trump from further embarrassment or the COVID up continues if they're not willing to do those things.
- [28:08]
Nicole
What did you learn from Bill Gates?
- [28:12]
James Comer
What we heard today from Mr. Gates was consistent with what he has said publicly about his interactions with Epstein. The meetings, the dinners where he hoped Epstein would engage seriously in Gates's philanthropic work around global health. Everything we heard from him today I think is consistent with what's in the public record. Obviously, it was at best a massive error in judgment to engage with Jeffrey Epstein in that way, even after you knew he had been convicted in 2008 pleading guilty to a sex crime. Mr. Gates acknowledged that and said he deeply regrets having any involvement with Epstein, given he had knowledge of that guilty plea from 2008.
- [29:02]
Nicole
Where does the investigation go next?
- [29:06]
James Comer
Todd Blanche? Look, we had the transcribed interview with Pam Bondi, and when Democrats asked her questions, she said, you need to talk to Todd Blanche. When Republicans asked her questions, she said, you need to talk to Todd Blanche about the files. Why weren't they fully released, what instructions were given to reviewers, why and how redactions were made. He's the one who has those answers. I think the New York Times reporting reveals that as well, he was the leader of the operation to release the files or cover up the files, depending on which files you're talking about.
- [29:42]
Nicole
I mean, it's fascinating. Donald Trump's man on the Epstein files. Donald Trump has an approval rating of I think almost 90% of the country either believes that the Justice Department is covering something up or doesn't know. Here it is from Reuters Ipsos federal government is hiding information about Epstein clients 75% of Americans agree 8% disagree not sure or didn't answer the question 17%. So 92% of all Americans either agree that the government, the Justice Department, is hiding information or aren't sure about it. And Republicans are about to probably rubber stamp him. Do you think he should be questioned vigorously on the COVID up?
- [30:23]
James Comer
Absolutely. Look, in this instance, we certainly can't say the COVID up is worse than the crimes because the crimes are so egregious. But the COVID up is really, really bad. It's bad morally and it's bad politically. As you shared there, I've always felt from Donald Trump's perspective, the best thing to have done, unless you really had something you wanted to hide, was to get it all out and get it all out early. Now the situation is there are embarrassing revelations about the Trump Epstein relationship in the files and Trump and his Department of Justice have done everything in their power to cover it up. It's the worst of both worlds for them.
- [31:02]
Nicole
Congressman James Blockinshaw, thank you so much for your time on this today. To be continued. When we come back, why so many black officers and service members serving in the United States military say Pete Hegseth is making their service feel unwelcome. We'll bring you that reporting next. There is bombshell new reporting today about the internal horrors over how Donald Trump's defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, has worked to delegitimize the accomplishments and the very presence of black men and women serving in the United States military. Pete Hegseth has dismissed, pushed out and blocked the promotions of high ranking black and female officers. He has removed diversity initiatives. He has banned Black History Month celebrations at the Pentagon, and he has restored memorials to Confederate soldiers. Clint Smith writes this in the Atlantic this week, quote, in interviews with two dozen currently enlisted civilian and retired black members of the military across the armed forces, person after person told me they have watched in dismay as the new administration has diminished and erased a proud history. Right now, one retired senior Air Force officer told me, I'm questioning whether it was all in vain. The officer was one of several people I interviewed who asked to remain anonymous out of fear of personal or professional retribution. I look at this as a bad fever, he said, and one day that fever is going to break. But who will be left once it does? Joining us now, the author of that piece of reporting. The Atlantic staff writer Clint Smith. Also joining us, Richard Brookshire. He's a former infantry combat medic and US army veteran from the war in Afghanistan. He is now the CEO and co founder of the Black Veterans Project. Clint, take us through what you're reporting.
- [32:54]
Clint Smith
Thanks so much for having me. Well, so much of what I discovered over the past several months is that there's a sort of cognitive dissonance for a lot of the officers and soldiers within the military. There are. There's this sense that so much of what has been done over the past year and a half by this administration has contributed to this feeling of almost a Jim Crow like essence being restored to the US Military. And there's so many people who have retired early. There's so many people who have decided not to go into the armed services when they otherwise would have considered it. At the same time, there's this feeling of, you know, our ancestors have gone through iterations of what we've gone through. Our ancestors have gone through worse than what we've gone through. We have a responsibility to stay the course. We have a responsibility to stay in the armed services because we'll be here long after the this administration and Pete Hegseth have departed. And so there's a there's a sort of tension that exists within the armed forces and within black members of the armed forces trying to decide what the right thing to do in their specific context is.
- [34:06]
Nicole
Clint, what do you do, though, when the power structure is creating the hostile environment? Where do you go if you're attacked or discriminated against or abused or face a hostile environment? Who is there for the men and women of the military of color when the racism is coming from the top of the power structure?
- [34:29]
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- [34:50]
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- [34:56]
Nicole
Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known
- [34:58]
Simone Sanders Townsend
each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she
- [35:02]
Clint Smith
worked in the White House and I reported on it.
- [35:05]
Claire McCaskill
And now we're friends and colleagues and on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.
- [35:12]
Nicole
Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news.
- [35:16]
Simone Sanders Townsend
So you can start to clock it, too. Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.
- [35:26]
Clint Smith
Yeah, it's incredibly difficult. And the truth is that oftentimes black service members go to one another. And the history of the organization within the military is that so often black service members, black soldiers, black cadets, are finding mentors in officers who are stationed in the same place that they are, who can serve as a sort of touch point to help them understand how to navigate the. The difficult dynamics, the difficult racial dynamics of the military. And that was before everything that's happened over the past year and a half with kind of Trump 2.0. But it feels even more pronounced now. And the problem is that many of the officers who would be the mentors to these younger soldiers are leaving the. The force. They're retiring early, or they're leaving after they've gotten past their 20 years when they otherwise would have stayed. And so there's this decimation of people who otherwise would have still been in the forces, would have been in these rooms, who would have served as mentors, who would have provided a sense of solidarity, a sense of guidance. And a lot of those folks are no longer in the military and have either fully retired or gone into the private sector.
- [36:35]
Nicole
Decimating the military is exactly what Pete Hegseth's legacy will be at the direction of Donald Trump. And I wonder, Richard, how any sort of warped, perverse universe this makes the military better, stronger, or safer.
- [36:51]
Simone Sanders Townsend
It doesn't. And there's no surprise that many of the first gains of the civil rights movement were really made in the military, right during the height of World War II, breaking forward into 1948, when the services were fully integrated, some of the first major wins that laid the foundation for the Civil Rights act and everything that would follow were the battlegrounds of the military, right? And so it's no surprise that the dismantling of the structures that have allowed equity to exist within the military in some fashion are being decimated in this moment. And there's going to be a lot to repair. But repair is certainly possible. And if our ancestors, like Clint said, have fought against these same kind of forces of fascism, then certainly we can do the same and take many of the lessons that we can glean from some of their victories.
- [37:44]
Nicole
Let me read you, Richard Samora. Clint's reporting. One senior black military official told me, quote, this country is great because of us, despite how they have treated us. When I think about what I'm willing to live or die for, I would not sit idly by and let someone else come in and take away what we've built, despite some folks not recognizing the role that we played in building it. Such a complicated relationship with the military, such a complicated relationship with the country. Some of that is obviously our history. But what people are dealing with right now being removed from list for promotions is something that Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth are choosing to do. Is there any way to resist those moves or is the power over those decisions? Absolutely.
- [38:34]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I think in this moment there is some absolution to some of the policies that are being propagated, and that's deeply unfortunate. But what some of the generals had said in the article that Clint wrote were that there are folks that are still holding the line. There are folks that are certainly always going to be a confluence of black folk that serve in uniform. Listen, I always think about the history, even going back to the Revolutionary War. I'm Haitian, and some of the reasons that we won the Revolutionary War were because Haitian troops came over and served in Savannah. Right. And when you think about the consequential nature of the Harlem hellfighters in World War I or the Tuskegee Airmen in World War II, all of these folks had to serve in spite of, and certainly in environments that were much more hostile to them as black people. And certainly in this moment, there is a large regression. But I do believe that not only is there a veteran ecosystem of folks who are highly skilled and highly aware and highly paying attention in this moment that are going to play a large role in ensuring that the, the military and the role of the military returns back to the people who were a diverse body of people. And our multiracial military is deeply important to the maintenance of a multiracial democracy.
- [39:45]
Nicole
Clint, it's an incredibly important piece of reporting. I think a sign of what we're all talking about is that a lot of your folks, a lot of your sources speak anonymously. I want to just invite them here on this program on live TV to come sit at this table and have this conversation. We'll all reconvene anytime. An open invitation to any one of them if they get to that point that they think that would be helpful. Really important reporting, really important conversation. Clint Smith and Richard Brookshire, thank you so much for joining me today to talk about it. When we come back, there's some breaking news to tell you about another night of airstrikes against targets, military targets in Iran. We'll have that reporting for you next. For the second day in a row, the United States has launched airstrikes inside Iran in just the last few minutes. CENTCOM and announced this On X, quote, U.S. central Command forces began launching additional self defense strikes today at 5:15pm Eastern Time against multiple targets in Iran at the commander in Chief's direction. The strikes are in response to Iran's unwarranted and continued aggression. That news comes just hours after Donald Trump vowed to quote, hit them hard again today because Iran was taking, quote, too long to negotiate. Joining us by phone, senior national security reporter David Rhode. David, what do you understand about the strikes and their targets and how long they're expected to last?
- [41:10]
David Rhode
That's the key question. I'll be honest. I'm reaching out to sources, but we don't know and what we don't know, just given the past actions by President Trump, this could be fairly limited or he could make a major change in the approach he's used. He talked about threatened in at one point yesterday, attacking power plants, which is possibly a war crime, and bridges and other things. So it's critical the breadth of this. They're calling themselves defense strikes. That doesn't really mean much. But the President has got himself in a position where I think the Iranians don't expect him to do much because he's gone back and forth so often. So it would really take a very large scale attack, I think, to get the Iranians to change their tough positions that they've been taking in the negotiations.
- [42:03]
Nicole
Donald Trump was condemned around the world for threatening to destroy their civilization, threatening to destroy power, infrastructure. It's also potentially a war crime. But to your larger point, I think he's gone from his cabinet saying we are not at war and the war is over, to Donald Trump saying we must remain at war because they can't have a nuclear weapon. What is the answer, if you ask the White House, are we at war?
- [42:33]
David Rhode
I think their answers were not at war. They still claim as a ceasefire. And I think there's no question that cease fire has been unraveling, particularly in the last week. Iran has been very aggressive in terms of striking Israel on Sunday for the first time since the two month ceasefire began. And then Trump urged Israel to not respond, which was surprising. They then took, took down a, they then took down an Iranian and a Patch helicopter. The next, on Tuesday, Iran told the Wall Street Journal that wasn't, you know, a big deal. He did subsequently, after a briefing with his aides, launch a series of strikes. And so it's, it's, it's very hard to know which direction the President's going To go in. This is maybe the madman sort of theory of negotiations. And, you know, I don't think it's working. I just think the Iranians are, you know, not seeing his erratic behavior as not a clear threat. So I will have to see again how this plays out tonight.
- [43:38]
Nicole
Stay with us. I want to add to our coverage our military analyst, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He served as the commanding general of the United States army in Europe. General Hertling, what do you see happening and what do we not see as civilians?
- [43:53]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Well, the first thing I'd say is there's some confusion. You know, we have a President who basically said last night Iran shot down an American helicopter, America must respond. But at the same time he's saying Iran must come to the bargaining table. So this is more of the military threat to Iran. And if you're truly on the verge of a peace agreement, Nicole, you generally avoid actions that make diplomacy impossible. That's what's happening right now. And as David just said, the Iranians are experiencing an existential threat to their country. We are not experiencing that same existential threat. We just have a President that wants to make a deal so he can open up the economic water way of the Strait of Hormuz. So you know what we've seen over the last 24 to 48 hours. The president was confronted with the incident. The first option he has is a limited retaliation against pre planned targets. And I gotta tell you, from a military perspective, they have a boatload of targets in their target packages. The Iranian radar sites, air defense systems, missile launchers, Revolutionary Guard facilities, maritime surveillance, those you could go down the list. And you know that this is in the targeting book of Central Command. But those are all already military targets in a strike cycle. The other thing that we have to consider is, is the President going to allow Israel greater freedom of action in Lebanon? That's the thing I'm most concerned about because this might actually be part of a more consequential decision. So three days ago, the President pulled back Prime Minister Netanyahu and said, don't strike Lebanon anymore because we're trying to get a peace deal. All day today, Israel has been striking inside of Tyre, which is a southern city in Lebanon, a Christian neighborhood where a lot of Hezbollah people have been going. Hezbollah fighters have been going to take refuge. So we're seeing the potential for both us Israeli action. Iran has continued to act by shooting at a bunch of different locations in the Middle East. And what we're really seeing now is a fork in the road. One is continued military strikes which may expand, and another one is hopefully trying to get a peace negotiation, which the president has not been able to do yet by using military force. So it is really not a good situation. I'm going to add one more thing to that. Right before I got a call from the producer to come on, I had just seen a statement from Secretary Hegseth this afternoon while he was down in Guantanamo saying we're going to hit Iran hard tonight. So the operational security is not real good. It's obvious to everyone what they're doing. And so far, Iran has not caved to the military threats because they've got systems that aren't going to cave through it.
- [46:55]
Nicole
General, stay with us. I want to bring into our coverage our reporter Julia Jester, who joins us now from Washington. You've been covering Pete Hegseth today. The general just talked about, quote, hitting Iran hard. Is that in retaliation for the helicopter or is that in service of a goal of a peace deal? What is the objective in terms of your understanding or reporting on these strikes?
- [47:21]
Julia Jester
Well, Nicole, based on what Secretary Hegseth said just moments ago outside of the headquarters of CENTCOM in Florida, he really stressed the latter, that this was about bringing Iran to the table for a diplomatic deal. He said, we don't want to restart full scale war, but the strikes are designed to get Iran to capitulate and to get a deal under the terms that the president expects from a deal. Now, the irony here is that part of the reason why Iran distrusts the US So much is that under multiple rounds of diplomatic negotiations going back to June, before Operation Midnight Hammer and just recently before Operation Epic Fury started, the US Was negotiating with them and then attacked them in the middle of those diplomatic talks. So this could prove to be counterproductive. But Secretary Hegseth stressed that these strikes would be strong, they would be clear, and they are designed to put pressure on Iran to finally stop dragging its feet when it comes to a diplomatic deal. Now, he wouldn't reveal a lot of the specifics of the type of strikes, citing operational security. But when a reporter asked that this would be more of a messaging thing of restriking previous targets, Hegseth said no one said anything about restriking. He noted that there would be new additional targets. And when a reporter asked if striking oil, energy, water, infrastructure would be a war crime, Hegseth deflected and called the reporter disingenuous and said, we will hit them hard on our terms and targets that improve the environment for us to operate in.
- [48:59]
Nicole
Nicole, Julia, Jester, David Rhode and Lieutenant General Mark Ertling. Thank you so much for jumping on the air and joining us for the breaking news. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.
- [49:15]
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