David Frum (2:55)

of the men and women of our armed forces who carried out this mission. It's an honor to be your Commander in Chief.

Donald Trump (Impersonation or Quoted) (3:02)

These tragic events raise hard questions about our effort in Somalia. Why are we still there? What are we trying to accomplish? How Did a humanitarian mission turn violent? And when will our people come home? These questions deserve straight answers.

Former President Barack Obama (Quoted) (3:19)

These efforts weigh on me every time I as commander in chief have to sign a letter to a family that has lost a loved one or look into the eyes of a service member who's been gravely wounded. So Americans understand the costs of war. Yet as a country, we will never tolerate our security being threatened nor stand idly by when our people have been killed.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (3:44)

So right now there are thousands of members of the military and military families worried and worried about their loved ones who are right now, as we come on the air, stationed or being sent to the Middle east in service of our country and all of us. Countless more Americans are growing more and more anxious by the day about what a war in the Middle east is leading to and this level of seriousness the White House is not providing to the nation. So that is a video put out by the White House. It is images of war, of bombs being dropped, potentially people being killed by those bombs interspliced with video game images, war and video games. And there are a litany of videos like that one. They say they are intended to drive up online engagement for the war. Politico is reporting that this is the plan. This is Donald Trump's plan to sell the Iran war to the American people. Politico reports this quote, the effort is part of a both and wartime communications strategy that, as is often the case with this White House cares little about presidential precedent or polite sensibilities. More than a half dozen videos put out by a small cadre of very online White House communications staffers tasked with sharing the kind of content that populates their private group chats have driven the conversation. Quote, it just seems detached from reality. That was retired Lieutenant General Ben Hodges, a two star general who commanded U.S. troops in Europe during President Barack Obama's second term. Quote, Our allies look at this and they wonder what the hell is going on. It doesn't look like we're serious. A senior White House official who's also closely involved in the video making effort described it as a collegial creative endeavor. Quote, we're over here just grinding away on banger memes, dude, said the person who spoke anonymously. Quote, there's an entertainment factor in what we do, but ultimately it boils down to the fact that no one has ever attempted to communicate with the American public this way before. End quote. That is where we begin the hour. Some of our favorite reporters and friends. Politico reporter, PENTAGON Reporter Paul McCleary is here. His byline is on that reporting we just read from. Also joining us, staff writer at the Atlantic, video podcast host David Frum. And with me at the table for the hour, senior political analyst, contributing host on Pause Save America, the host of the podcast Runaway Country. Our friend Alex Wagner is here. Let me start with you, Paul, on your reporting. Take us through it.

Paul McCleary (Politico Reporter) (6:43)

Yeah, I mean, like everyone else, we kind of noticed these videos coming out several weeks ago, right. Right when the war started. And, and one was kind of surprising and, and two, and two or three really made a trend here, right? And you know, they release this video, you kind of will take it aback and then, you know, White House officials and DoD officials start retweeting it and really kind of enters the, the bloodstream here, you know. And one White House official in the story bragged that they got 3 billion hits on those, on those videos online over about a week or so. So that's when we started asking questions of, you know, why are you doing this? Where is this coming from? And, you know, as they said in the story, this seems to be keeping with, with the campaign strategy from, from 2024 and, and pushed all the way through of kind of making all this somewhat a game or making entertainment and, and trying to reach out to those, I guess, generally young men who listen to Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn, things like that. I mean, that was their kind of innovation during the campaign is reaching out to those, the, those people, those young men, and they see this, that, and keep those, keep those young men engaged and, and laughing at, at, at policy choices. Difficult, hard policy choices.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (7:49)

War.

Paul McCleary (Politico Reporter) (7:51)

Yeah, clearly. I mean, these videos, I mean, this is the thing about air wars. I mean, they appear through the video clips to be almost antiseptic.

Congressman James Walkinshaw (7:59)

Right?

Paul McCleary (Politico Reporter) (7:59)

You don't see anyone in these, in these videos being hurt or injured or killed or, or losing an arm or leg. It's, it's a ship, it's a tank, it's a, it's a bunker and they explode. It looks really cool, but I mean, there's people at, at either end of those, right? Either being hit or taking the shot, which is, you know, also contains moral injury. Right. When you're doing things like this to other human beings, whether that the enemy or not. So I think that they are trying to make this war seem antiseptic and seem like there's not people involved making hard choices and being hurt and killed.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (8:35)

Paul, There's a preciousness that people sometimes cover norm busting with, and we'll abandon that because Trump has won twice and clinched the Republican nomination twice. But in this case, it correlates with a precipitous drop in the polls among the groups. You're talking about the shift in young men, 18 to 29. He's lost 10 points in a year, February to February, 25 to 26, down from 43% to 33%, which is a big drop from Election Day. Even his support among independents, which were part of that winning coalition last November, also dropped. He's at 63% disapprove last week on the handling of the war. Specifically, just 24% of independents approve of his handling of the war. So either it's not working or these people are gone. What is your sense of how empowered the video game war communicators are if the poll numbers continue to go in the only direction they've seemed to go with Trump lately, which is down.

David Froman (NFL Player Commentator) (9:43)

Yeah.

Paul McCleary (Politico Reporter) (9:44)

I mean, I think in absence of a defined strategy or end game here to the war, they're trying things like this. Right. You see Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth getting up there and castigating the media today. He criticized NATO allies for not helping. You know, is what Hegseth has done all along the kind of tough talk that we've seen from him. Right. And he doesn't really give, give much his way of answers or describe what's happening on the battlefield or what the objectives are here. And then you have Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Dan Kane speaks right after him from the Pentagon podium. And he gives us kind of almost a human aspect, you could say. Right. He laments the troops that have been lost. He describes what the troops are doing, things like that. So, you know, he, as a political player, he's kind of on the White House side here. Right. Pushing a message, not giving any detail. And it's flash and bang in a lot of ways.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (10:32)

I've asked everyone what their understanding of the answer to this question is. And since you cover the Pentagon, let me ask you, do you understand why we're at war with Iran right now and what the goals are?

Paul McCleary (Politico Reporter) (10:44)

They won't obviously give an end game. You saw the president again today speaking about, about the war. And just they, they're describing tactics and using them as a, as a placeholder for strategy. Right. Destroying our Iranian nuclear program, which they've kind of talked about and then ignored, then talked about again and ignored ballistic missiles, Iranian, Iranian Navy, things like that. Those are tactics for achieving an end game, which seems to be regime change and decapitation, which they've already decapitated the, you know, parts of the regime. But there's, there's no kind of in between. Right. We don't see what's going to happen tomorrow every day. Hegseth and and Kane get up there the Pentagon podium and say today is the largest day of airstrikes. But to what end? They won't or can't answer that question.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (11:29)

David from Let me show you how Ryan Clark, who's one of the NFL players who was sliced into some of the early versions of these videos before they turned almost exclusively to video game characters, responded to being part of this memeification of war communications.

David Froman (NFL Player Commentator) (11:50)

I'm disappointed that because for one, to have Tropic Thunder and football highlights on a video about war is one of the more insensitive things that I've ever seen. There are families here in our country whose loved ones have decided to give their life to fight for our rights and our freedoms, who don't see war as a sport. War doesn't deserve a highlight film for Tropic Thunder to be a part of it. War is not a comedy. And for these people to be risking their lives not for our safety, but for as much as for someone else's agenda, for our regime to be as unserious, as unprofessional, as laughable and as illegitimate as our leadership is right now is embarrassing.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (12:50)

And the polls back that up. I mean, this is the overall polling on the handling of the war with Iran. 37% approve, 59% disapprove. It tracks almost exactly with Donald Trump's overall approval rating.

David Frum (13:03)

Well, I'm just going to log off and take the evening off because I don't think I can improve on that statement at all. But since I'm here, look, Donald Trump has a strategy in Iran for everything going well, easily, cheaply, low cost, no difficulty. He never went to Congress for approval. He never made a case to the American public. He attracted no allies. I mean, when Pete Hegseth says the ungrateful Europeans today Danish there's been a story that has been going on for a while, but it's been authoritatively confirmed today that the Danes had a plan to send troops to Greenland. Not because they thought they could defeat the United States, because they thought if Danes they blow up the air fields and Danes get killed by Americans, it might shame the American people into not attacking Greenland. So the reason the allies are ungrateful is because two months ago, Denmark, France, Germany, Britain were preparing for a war against the United States when it invaded the territory of Greenland, part of the kingdom of Denmark. That's why They're a little testy because they were planning for war against the United States not 60 days ago. So when America summons, they are a little slow to call. Now, some of them are calling, coming because they remember a different America and they feel loyalty to that different America. But so no case to the country, no case to Congress, no allies, no plan to pay for this war. There's now going to be a supplemental resolution which we're hearing might be $200 billion, an astonishing sum of money there's no plan for. The plan was drop bombs, have everything go boom, everything be cheap, easy, the price of oil doesn't go up. And then you can put out these memes and hoping that the most obnoxious people in America say, we like President Trump, he has no respect for human decency. Neither do we. That's our guy. But now the war is in difficulty. And I say this as someone who's broadly in sympathy with the strategic goals of bringing regime change to Iran. I am in sympathy with that. I'm part of the community that they might be reaching out to. But I would want to hear, and a lot of people who think like me want to hear, do you have a plan? Do you have Congress? Do you have allies? And by the way, if you're asking for $200 billion, can we have a non bozo as head of the Department of Homeland Security in a war with the world's leading sponsor of terror? Could we have somebody at FBI who doesn't just go to sporting events and chug beers, but actually and fire people for doing their job? Can we have an office of Director of National Intelligence staff sapphire people who are not white nationalists beholden to Russia? Can we have a Secretary of Defense who uses the legal title of his job and doesn't seem to be running for frat president? And by the way, can we have some arms for Ukraine while we're at it? And can we have a guarantee that the, that none of the money from this war is going to find its way to the president's pocket and that of his children? Because we are hearing a lot of stories about self dealing and many kinds of contracts with drones with rare earths with this terrible story at DHS about alleged kickbacks to the former secretary. Can we have some guarantee that this war is going to be run in a national way and not just by jerks for their own enrichment? And until we have that, you're not getting the $200 billion.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (16:14)

Can I answer that for you? You can't have any of those nice Things. You don't get any of the things. David Fromman. And let me tell you, if you are sympathetic to the aim of regime change, what you got was a worse regime. I mean, I know a lot of those people, too, from my old life. But if that was your aim, you're the biggest sucker of all, because what you got was a more brutal regime.

David Frum (16:36)

Well, in Iran.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (16:37)

In Iran.

David Frum (16:38)

Well, we haven't. Look, as I say, I'm ready to. To be convinced of this, and I'm. I'm hoping that. That something good may yet come of it, but we are not on a good path. The regime has been terrifically brutal. In January, it killed 30,000 people. The President of the United States, who is the legal representative of the nation, said that health help was on the way when he had no plan to send help while the people were being killed. The help has arrived later, which is beginning, but there are more executions today, and America's good name is on the line by people who do not take America's good name seriously.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (17:13)

Yeah, I mean, I guess the idea that you can take anything good from anything the Trump administration does is, I guess, beautiful in its optimism. But it's just, in 10 years, never come to pass.

Alex Wagner (17:27)

No. And I mean, look what we're doing today. I mean, the president has eased sanctions on Russian oil, which is putting more money in Putin's pocket as he fights a war of democracy in Ukraine. So he's helping Russia arm up against the Ukrainians and also funnel money to the Iranians as they fight us. And then the. Today the president saying he's gonna lift Iranian oil sanctions. They'll be able to sell their oil for more than they have been as they try and kill Americans in Iran, literally relaxing sanctions on the country you are involved in a BL war with. None of it makes any sense because this is all a colossal catastrophe. I mean, I think. Jon Ossoff, you know, the sound you played at the beginning is so right about the moral rot. It's not like we're getting public committee briefings on where this war is going and why we need to spend 200 more billion dollars on it. It's not like we're getting answers out of the Department of Defense. We get lies, we get propaganda, and we get video gamification of death. Where's the banger meme on the 100 Iranian schoolgirls who are killed? Or does that not. Does that not. Does a banger meme not come out of the confines of the Axe body spray, like, covered digital team that is the only messaging apparatus we have for this entire war. I mean, it's both. It's opacity and mendacity. That it's like these twin things combined with utter trivialization of the brutal cost of war that really is a searing indictment of this country. Because it's not just about Trump anymore. This is being done in our name. And when we travel overseas, we are tagged with this, too. It is just an abomination on every level.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (19:09)

Do you think it is a window into who we are right now?

Alex Wagner (19:13)

I mean, I think, look, I think there's something they think that's winning about lethality and about violence and bloodlust. Right. That's why they're pumping out these videos. They think that there's some appetite for that in this country. I don't think they're right. I mean, I think there was a pushback from years of, I would argue, progress on a number of fronts, socially and culturally. But the idea that we as a country would embrace the video gamification of war and the slaughter of innocents is just not. I don't think that's who we are as Americans. I think Trump thinks it is and I think he's dead wrong.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (19:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Wagner (19:47)

All right.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (19:48)

No one's going anywhere. Also ahead for us, Democrats are calling out the growing cover up. They say the Trump administration is orchestrating over the Jeffrey Epstein files, the other front on which Trump is flailing with his own coalition. Why? They stormed out of a closed door meeting with Attorney General Pam Bondi, who so far is dodging a subpoena to testify about her handling of the release of the Epstein files. Under oath. Dead then. White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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Donald Trump (Impersonation or Quoted) (22:01)

Japan and us are very good friends, but one question. Why didn't you tell US allies in Europe and Asia, like Japan, about the war before attacking Iran? So we are very confused about Japanese citizens. Well, one thing you don't want to signal too much. You know, when we go in, we went in very hard and we didn't tell anybody about it because we wanted surprise. Who knows better about surprise than Japan?

David Froman (NFL Player Commentator) (22:31)

Okay.

Donald Trump (Impersonation or Quoted) (22:31)

Why didn't you tell me about Pearl Harbor? Okay. Right. He said he's asking me, don't you believe in surprise? I think much more so than us.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (22:45)

I struggle every minute of every day with platforming him. One, I should do it all day because it shows what a profound idiot he is. But two, we were on other sides. This is a question about why didn't you read in your allies? And he says, we didn't know what our adversary was gonna do. I mean, David, from what do you even. How's your brain doing?

David Frum (23:05)

All right, so first, there's probably no society on earth where good manners count for more than Japan, a country that has been, and we're talking about 80 years since the end of World War II, that has been a staunch and loyal ally of the United States for 80 years, where the warmth of person to person ties. But the one big cultural difference has always been the emphasis on decorum and decency and respect in Japanese culture. Whereas American culture can be a little more boisterous for the president of the United States to instead insult them. And you can watch it. So him sort of figuring out no one is amused by what I just said. Maybe if I say it again, it'll get more amusing the second time. And what if I say, right, right, right, and give them a little jab in the ribs? Maybe it'll be funny then. And it's just. It's just horrifying. One More thing that needs to be pointed out in this analogy that he's drawing between the United States and Japan. Who's doing the sneak attack? Oh, yeah, he's comparing the United States to the Japanese sneak attack. He wanted to do a Pearl harbor on Greenland. Now he wants to do a Pearl harbor on Iran. He is comparing himself to the people of Americans normally condemn and then elbowing the Japanese that they don't think the whole thing is terribly amusing.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (24:10)

I mean, it is consistent. I don't know why I'm still trying to push Trump through any sieve of consistency, but it's been reported that he used to amuse all the time about how much he liked the German generals. I mean, there is an admiration for that side's tactics.

Alex Wagner (24:26)

Yeah. I also think it reveals him to be just a crotchety old racist that's still thinking about the Japanese in terms of World War II. You know what I mean? Like those internment camps, were they really that bad? Why don't you make a joke about Hiroshima and Nagasaki while you're at it? President Trump, I mean, it's so tasteless. It's so boorish. And it's not just easily. He's not just making that. It's not just an ad hominem attack. It's also as he's asking the Japanese to do us a solid and help reopen the Strait of Hormuz. Like, what could be more insulting than bringing up World War II and the trauma that inflicted on the Japanese, for example, generation. Something that honestly, there's still tension over it.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (25:06)

Right.

Alex Wagner (25:07)

In terms of U.S. japanese relations and what we did to the Japanese in America. Look no further than Rachel Maddows, excellent podcast on all of this, but that we're asking them to come to our assistance and this is the best he can do. What a just shameful example of both buffoonery and racism. And my heart, I mean, I watched this meme a couple times, is you look at the Japanese prime minister just trying to hold it again together. And as the press corps. And David's so right to point this out. Is just mortified into silence. You rarely hear that. You always hear the cameras, someone's shouting another question, but it's just. The room falls silent.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (25:43)

Yeah, I mean, Paul, I guess this gets back to why the video games are the safest way for Donald Trump to communicate with anybody about the war, but specifically on their public utterances about what they want from allies. I mean, on the Strait of Hormuz, we'll just take that. Where are you? We want you, you're never there when we need you. We don't need you. Maybe we'll just blow it up. What is your understanding of the current military objective when it comes to the Strait of Hormuz?

Paul McCleary (Politico Reporter) (26:13)

Well, I mean there's three US Navy ships and 2200 Marines that have been dispatched from the Pacific where they're normally based to the Middle East. They're on their way there now. The 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit, they can do, they're kind of like a Swiss army knife in a lot of ways that these Marine Expeditionary Units, they could do kind of forcible operations. Ash. They have the F35s. They help in the, in the bombing campaign. They can do some air defenses, things like that to try to knock down some of these drones or just kind of, or just be presence right in the Gulf of Oman and the Persian Gulf. So there is a build up coming. Right. And there's been some, some more surveillance planes sent as well. So we don't know exactly what the strategy is before, but we do know that there will be some, a different look at the very least. Right. With three amphibious ships and this, this Marine unit that will be in place probably sometime next week.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (27:05)

David from yeah, go ahead.

David Frum (27:07)

Can I why is the State Strait of Huismu's problem so serious? What is the deal? I think a lot of people don't carry in their mind an image of the world oil market as it used to be. The world's largest oil producer is the United states of America. 25% of the planet's oil comes from North America, the United States and Canada. There is oil all over the place. It doesn't come from the Persian Gulf. And a lot of the Persian Gulf oil can transit across Saudi Arabia by pipeline and be loaded in the Red Sea. So we're not talking about a catastrophic shortage as we were in 1973 or 1979. The reason Strait of Hormuz is important, it's not because the world's going to run out of oil. It's because there's going to be price pressure, not intolerable and impossible price pressure, but meaningful price pressure. And the reason that that is important is because Donald Trump has no permission. If in a different timeline, a different president would have gone to the American people and said there's a real security threat from Iran. I've got the allies here, I've got Congress on board and we're going to take action. I have to warn you, the price of gasoline is going to go up for three months and you'll all pay more and we'll try to find ways to offset it. Maybe there'll be an interest special tax cut, maybe we'll do release from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. But I have to warn you, there are going to be three months of higher prices. It's worth it. Here's why you make that case. If you haven't made that case, then those three months of higher prices, they're not a catastrophe to anybody except Donald Trump's poll numbers. So the reason he is insulting the Japanese prime minister and carrying on in this way is not because he's worried about some world economy ravaging absolute shortage of oil. He's worried he sold Americans that they will pay nothing for this war. Now they will pay something. And his support on the war is going to vanish even more deeply than it already has.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (28:49)

One of the ways that you can sort of analyze and understand that that is precisely what is happening is that there are very few things that Donald Trump is still sensitive to. It is one of the sort of hallmarks of 2.0 that is different from 1.0. But the stock market fluctuations are one of those indicators. And so far it has been a pretty negative feedback loop for him.

Alex Wagner (29:14)

Well, yeah. And the great Dan Pfeiffer, my colleague at Crooked Media, has a great post about this on his substack, the message box, and he talks about the way in which gas prices are different than any other indicator. One, they're inelastic. You gotta fuel up your car to pick your kids up. From soccer to the signs about how much it costs themselves. And usually people tend to blame not the president, but gas and oil companies, the greediness of the market. This is different. It's like 16% of respondents in this polling blame the sort of geopolitical situation. 18% blame the oil and gas companies, 48% blame President Trump. This sits squarely on his shoulders. Remember how there were those stickers at the gas station? I don't know, if you have a car, you go fuel up. It was a picture of Biden with a little finger saying, I did this. That is a sticker that needs to have Donald Trump's face on it. That rise every cent, every dollar that people are paying at the pump, that is on Donald Trump's dime.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (30:14)

He also, Tuesday night of the State of the Union, which was three nights before the war started, pointed to gas prices as one of his accomplishments. So he, he also saw in that largest television audience of his presidency so far to tie himself to however people feel about gas prices like A$98. Yeah, I think we've soared past that. Paul. The story is really amazing, as is all your reporting. Thank you for being here to talk about it. David Fraim, your insights are always amazing. Thank you for joining us today. Alex sticks around with, when we come back, one of the House Democrats who stormed out of that closed door meeting with Attorney General Pam Bondi over the Epstein files and her refusal so far to testify about her handling of them under oath. That's next. The House Oversight Committee is questioning another member of Jeffrey Epstein's inner circle right now, his personal lawyer and key associate, Darren Indyke. Now, Indyke worked closely with Jeffrey Epstein for decades before becoming an executor of his estate. But in his opening statement, Indyke told the committee that he had no knowledge of Epstein's crimes. Attorneys for the survivors of Epstein's abuse said that Indyck's claimed ignorance of Epstein's abuse, quote, only underscores how much still remains hidden about the vast network of enablers that allowed these crimes to persist for decades. Survivors and the American people deserve the full undistorted truth about who knew what. The questioning today comes just one day after what turned out to be a dramatic closed door session with Attorney General Pam Bondi. Democrats storming out when Bondi continued to try to dodge accountability for her department's handling of the Epstein files. Here's what the committee's ranking member, Congressman Robert Garcia had to say about that.

Congressman Robert Garcia (32:00)

We just walked out of what has been, quite frankly, complete disrespectful of the process of one of our members. And quite frankly, the American public should be outraged at what is happening right now. This fake hearing, we found out about it yesterday with no time to prepare, with no format given to us. And it was clear from the minute it started that the Attorney general is trying to evade and not attend the mandated subpoena that is put in place. We asked her that question. Multiple members asked her the question. She would not respond. She said she'll continue to follow the law. That is not a response. She has a subpoena in place by Chairman Comer.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (32:43)

I'm going to bring in our coverage. Member of the House Oversight Committee, Democratic Congressman James Walkinshaw of Virginia. He was among the members who walked out of that meeting with Pam Bondi last night. Alex is still here as well. Congressman, tell me about what's happening before the walkout.

Congressman James Walkinshaw (33:00)

Well, the so called briefing that Democrats and Republicans attended last night, very quickly it became apparent that the Attorney General and perhaps Chairman Comer were using it to Try to avoid her appearing before our committee under oath on April 14, as she's been subpoenaed to do. She came to the briefing with no briefing. She provided no new information. She agreed to answer questions and repeated the same talking points that she's repeated publicly, but offered no new valuable information. And when asked whether she would commit to following the law, complying with the subpoena, and showing up to be deposed under oath, she was evasive. And it was clear that she wanted to walk out of yesterday's briefing and say that I've done my duty and there's no need to go forward with the sworn deposition. The problem with that is what happened last night was secret. And that's been a challenge with the Trump administration and everything related to Epstein. They've tried to keep everything secret. Our perspective as oversight Democrats is the American people. The survivors deserve full transparency. That means the attorney general testifying under oath with a video, with transcription, so the American people can see exactly what she says.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (34:24)

What is her rationale for not doing what former President Clinton has done and what others have done? What is her excuse?

Congressman James Walkinshaw (34:33)

She has no rationale or excuse. She says she'll follow the law. The law is clear. Following the law means showing up and complying with the subpoena. She's refusing to commit to do that. I think what she will try to say is she testified before the Judiciary Committee, where she spent most of her time attacking the Democratic members of the committee, and she participated in this private, secret briefing last night. So there's no need for her to answer questions under oath. I suspect that's what she's ultimately going to try to say. That's not the law. She's going to have to testify before Congress.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (35:11)

If she was participating in good faith, what would you want to ask her and hear her answer?

Congressman James Walkinshaw (35:18)

Well, we know, so the law is clear. The Epstein File Transparency act is clear, that all of the files with only a small number of redacted categories needed to be released. That hasn't happened. There's 3 million files missing. And just as important, if not more important than that, there have been hundreds of thousands of illegal redactions. I want to know why those illegal redactions were made when, for example, there was a document that described Donald Trump's conversation with Jeffrey Epstein's attorneys in 2009 that contradicted public statements Donald Trump has made. Why was that redacted, and who made the decision to redact it? Those are the kind of questions she needs to answer under oath.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (36:06)

Let me ask you about Mr. Endyke, my understanding is that the estate has never been probed or investigated by the Justice Department, is that right?

Congressman James Walkinshaw (36:19)

That's correct. There has been no investigation of the estate as such. NOR did the FBI ever, ever interview Mr. Endyke or Mr. Kahn, Epstein's lawyer and accountant, respectively.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (36:32)

Did you learn enough to refer Mr. Endyke or the estate for an actual investigation to DOJ, or we just is that sort of a relic of a long time ago practice where an investigation that is worthy, if it's on this topic or could touch Donald Trump or one of his friends, isn't going to happen?

Congressman James Walkinshaw (36:58)

Well, look, and that is a question that came up last night with the attorney General, whether they would consider opening any new investigations based on either information that has been released in the files or information that comes as a result of the Oversight Committee's investigation. And to date, they assert that there is not evidence to justify opening new investigations. I certainly hope at some point in the future, perhaps with a future attorney General and Department of justice, that that will happen. There are just huge holes in the investigations that have been conducted of Jeffrey Epstein and his associates. And we're doing our best to fill those holes, but we can only depose those individuals that Republicans agree to join us in voting to depose or to question. So there are holes in our investigation as well. And look, this investigation won't be complete. The end won't even be beginning until we get all the files released and can follow up on every lead that's in all 6 million of the files.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (38:05)

That's incredible. Congressman James Walkinshaw, thank you so much for spending time with us today on this. When we come back, it has been announced the JFK Profile Encourage Award going to a brave group of Americans who inspired us all. We'll tell you about it next. It has been a day for breaking news since we've been on the air. We have learned that this year's JFK Profile and Courage Award will be presented to the Minnesotans who protested and persevered in the face of the Trump administration's brutal and deadly ICE operation in their communities. In a press release, the JFK Presidential Library says the people of the Twin Cities of Minnesota will be honored for, quote, risking their lives to protect their neighbors and immigrant community members from an unprecedented federal law enforcement operation, peacefully defending the human rights and values that serve as the foundation of our constitutional democracy. This too, from Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar, who said, quote, this winter, Minnesotans showed the world what courage looks like. Our state was the center of America's heartbreak, but we were also the center of America's hope. Alex, we talked today about what this story was like. You were on the ground as this was happening.

Alex Wagner (39:19)

It was one of those things where it's like the situation is so dire, but the actions of the community were so extraordinary. And I was with moms who had set up impromptu underground networks to get teachers who were from overseas or Spanish speaking, taking teachers to school and get them groceries because it was no longer safe for them to go out on the streets. Like, no one should have to do that. But at the same time, the tenacity and the care and the resilience of that community. I was outside one of the detention centers, and there was just a group of volunteers who would wait 24 hours a day for people to be released from custody. And they would get them clothes, they would get them a phone, and they would get them a ride home. These are people who were snatched off the street, unlawfully detained and let go with no resources, no ride home. And there were just a group of Minnesotans who were out there saying, we are gonna hold vigil, and if you ever need our help, we will be here for you. I mean, it was just an amazing moment, actually, for the country. Both positive, both negative, obviously, and extraordinarily positive.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (40:14)

The response to the killing of two American citizens 17 days apart. Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy. It feels like, I don't wanna say this in a negative way about anyone else, but it seems like Minnesota, with its history of peaceful protest, knew exactly what to do to sort of hold each other and just be undeniably peaceful and united.

Alex Wagner (40:35)

I, George Floyd, taught them a lot. And the Minnesota PD took a completely different tack than other police departments around the country. They did not wanna be part of these ICE raids. They had re emphasized community, community integration. And I think, you know, when a society, when a sort of a group of people experiences a trauma like that and becomes the focus of so much national attention, they band together and they wanna do better. And I don't think you would've had the Minnesota of January if you hadn't had the Minnesota of 2020. And I think that it's an extraordinary story of growth and alliance and kinship. I mean, it's awesome that they're getting the Profile and Courage award in addition to it. Also, this is not as important, but it's a giant middle finger to little Greg Bovino, who's now out of a job and protector of the shield of America's Kristi noem I mean, what a. Just. What a complete, you know, what comeuppance for them that the people with courage are the ones who stood and resisted the garbage intrusion into their community.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (41:38)

Well, and everything they accomplish, I mean, they take to the streets. And Greg Bovino leaves. Yep. A drawdown is announced. Kristi Noem is now out of a job. That all starts with this.

Alex Wagner (41:49)

It does. And, you know, we're. Now. It remains to be seen what happens with Mark Wayne Mullen becoming the new head of dhs. But at least he feels the compunction to say we need judicial warrants. We are going to reform the way in which these raids have been happening. I'm not putting a ton of money on it, but it's indicative of a White House that is cowed for whom these public protests and a community coming out peacefully and together and united to do good has really had a profound effect. Sometimes you can combat evil with good, and you win.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (42:21)

The other person who is receiving the award is Jerome Powell.

Alex Wagner (42:25)

Oh, my God. Another profiling courage. The playbook. Yeah, the playbook. It's just punch a bully in the nose. It's the only way to stop a bully is by punching him in the nose. And, man, Jerome Powell, not someone I thought of as a pugilist or like someone who would go viral on the Internet, but he shows us all in his weirdly wonky fetish way. You stand tough when they come for you. Say, no, don't open the door.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (42:50)

The thing that Jerome Powell has done every time is that in the moment, he's punch back. Yeah. He doesn't wait around. He doesn't go back to his office and decide if the risks outweigh the benefits. Nope. In the moment that the lie is told, even if Trump is standing next to him, he corrects the lie. In the moment that the investigation started, he put out, as you said, a viral video.

Alex Wagner (43:08)

You have to react. Do not ignore the smears. Do not ignore the lies. Address them front on and with a closed fist, may I add.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (43:16)

So Jack Schlossberg will be presenting the award along with his mom, Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg. And these are the recipients. So for once, we had some good news to talk about.

Alex Wagner (43:26)

It's so rare. I'm like, this is a weird feeling I have.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (43:29)

I'm, like, out of nice things to say because we never get to talk about.

Alex Wagner (43:31)

We are like, something uplifting. But it actually is super important to look at the wins when you have them. And these are extraordinary wins. These are big ones.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (43:39)

There's also like if Democrats are gonna prevail in November, which the polls suggest they absolutely should, all of the lessons about how it's done can be learned in Jerome Powell. Fighting back against disinformation, bullying, and the people of Minnesota standing strong together.

Alex Wagner (43:54)

Totally. They're templating.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (43:56)

Thank you for being here today, Mary.

Alex Wagner (43:57)

I love you.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (43:57)

Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. You're the best. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best people podcast is Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling. He served our country for more than three decades, and I asked him about what drives people to serve their country. Here's one of the stories he told me.

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (44:20)

I said, you didn't tell me why you joined. You just told me what you did. And he goes, well, he said, I was 19 years old, I was making a lot of money as a model, but I looked in the mirror one day after an all night drunk and he said, I said to myself, I need to do something more important with my life. And he walked into a recruiting station and signed up. I'm getting emotional thinking about that kid. And so I'm starting to get emotional. I said, okay, I can't cry in front of a group of my soldiers. They'll think I'm a real wuss. And so I said, okay, Green, that's great, but you're running a gun truck in northern Iraq right now. How are you feeling about that decision? And then he came back with something that just floored me. He said, pretty damn good, sir. He said. He said, I'm with my brothers now. He said, I didn't have much of a family. He says, but all these guys are my brothers. He says, I've got a new set of values. He recited the army values. And he says, I'm feeling pretty good about it. This is a good life. He said, I wasn't doing anything for society when I was a model.

Host (Podcast or News Show) (45:28)

The rest of the conversation digs into how the current administration treats those men and women, the lessons on leadership the general learned from his time and service, and much, much more. If you want to watch the rest of the conversation, it's out on YouTube now. You just scan the QR code on your screen. Be sure to let me know what you think on Instagram or bluesky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful at vrbo.

Maria (Salon Owner, Ozempic Ad) (45:57)

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