"No signs of slowing down on Trump's quest for retribution"

Summary

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Deadline: White House – "No signs of slowing down on Trump's quest for retribution"

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Original Air Date: May 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace examines the latest developments in Donald Trump's ongoing pursuit of political retribution, focusing on his controversial $1.8 billion "slush fund," the politicization of the Justice Department, and the deepening division within the Republican Party. The discussion features reporting on judicial and political pushback, explores the fallout from corruption and lawfare, and shifts in the political landscape. The episode also addresses unrest and inhumane conditions in ICE detention centers, with testimony from lawmakers and advocates, and closes with international concerns about AI from Pope Leo.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump's "Slush Fund," Political Retribution, and GOP Pushback

• Overview: Trump's $1.8 billion slush fund, reportedly designed to compensate those prosecuted after January 6th (including convicted offenders), is drawing severe criticism—both from within and outside the Republican Party.
• Republican Dissent: Prominent Republicans, such as Senator Thom Tillis, are openly rebuking Trump's focus on personal grievances and self-serving policies, warning of potential electoral loss (01:01–02:28).
• Wall Street Journal Editorial: Even stalwart conservative voices question Trump's capacity to govern, warning his second-term agenda is "self-indulgent" and obsessed with retribution (02:28).
• Exposure of DOJ Misconduct: Trump's DOJ is allegedly hiding critical details about January 6th cases; the effort is widely seen as a "distraction" and possibly self-dealing (02:28).

Notable Quote:

“Trump’s politics have always been largely personal, but in his second term it has become self-indulgent even by his standards... Trump needs a second year reset or he is headed toward a second term failure.” — Nicolle Wallace quoting Wall Street Journal editorial (02:28)

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2. Legal and Political Fallout: Inside DOJ Turmoil

• Judicial Rebukes: Judges—including Republican appointees—are increasingly tossing out DOJ cases, citing breaches of protocol, coaching of grand jurors, and cherry-picking evidence (05:46–07:28; 17:15–20:33).
• Attorney General Todd Blanche: Trump’s hand-picked, former defense lawyer, acting as AG, is at the center of the crisis. His loyalty and compliance with Trump’s directives are seen as liability (05:46–07:28).
• Unprecedented Corruption: The guest panel underscores that the level of self-dealing and disregard for norms is unequaled in post-Watergate DOJ history (05:46–07:28).
• No Institutional Support: Insiders reveal no one in the DOJ thought giving cash payments to convicted child molesters and January 6th offenders was a good idea; it is “the Trump way” (07:49).

Notable Quote:

“There’s a right way, there’s a wrong way, and then there’s the Trump way.” — Glenn Thrush (07:49)

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3. Slush Fund Backlash and Legal Challenges

• Republican Senators Rebuke AG: Over two dozen Republican senators sharply criticize Acting AG Blanche for the fund (09:15–11:02).
• Lawsuits Planned: Legal organizations are preparing multiple lawsuits to block the slush fund, arguing it is legally unsustainable and "so obviously illegal" (11:02–12:46).
• Moral & Political Toxicity: The fund reportedly includes notorious criminals, including a convicted child molester, who allegedly promised restitution from the fund to victims as hush money, further inflaming public and legal outrage (12:16–12:46).

Notable Quote:

“[This] is overt, in-your-face corruption... It is so in your face it makes you wonder whether these people think that they are ever leaving office or that they will ever face consequences.” — Margaret Donovan (12:46)

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4. Justice Department Erosion and “Losing the Rule of Law”

• Grand Jury Manipulation: Reporting reveals prosecutors have overstepped by coaching jurors and redacting transcripts, undermining trust in the system (17:15–18:43).
• AUSAs & Brain Drain: Resignations of seasoned DOJ attorneys range between 7–15% in some divisions, disproportionately depleting institutional expertise (20:33–20:59).
• Absence of DOJ Wrongdoing Evidence: Despite the administration’s accusations, internal investigations have found no significant prosecutorial misconduct (20:59–23:01).

Notable Quote:

"The incompetence of the U.S. attorneys usually outweighs their corruption... It erodes trust, and it really is going to be a very long rebuilding phase." — Margaret Donovan (18:43)

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5. The Endgame: Fear and Intimidation

• Lawfare as Deterrence: The aim isn't necessarily to win in court, but to instill fear—CEOs and private citizens are intimidated from speaking out lest they become targets of lawsuits or executive wrath (23:01–25:16).
• Chilling Effect: Even major companies hesitate to criticize Trump’s economic record, fearing retaliation (25:07–25:16).

Notable Quote:

“The end game is to create fear, Nicole. Right. The process is the punishment.” — Chris Hayes (23:32)

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6. ICE Detention Crisis: Hunger Strikes & Human Rights

• Protest at Delaney Hall, NJ: Lawmakers and citizens protest inhumane conditions; a hunger strike by detainees (largely non-criminals) sparks confrontation with mask-wearing ICE agents (27:55–29:43).
• Denied Oversight: New Jersey Gov. Mikie Sherrill barred from detention center; DHS Secretary Mullen accuses protesting officials of “political stunt” (27:55).
• Firsthand Lawmaker Reports: Congressman Rob Menendez details widespread hunger strike, deteriorating health, and aggressive tactics to coerce “voluntary deportation” (29:43–33:16).
• Data & Personal Impact: 75–90% of detainees have no criminal record—contradicting administration claims; rising suicides and self-harm incidents reported (31:35–37:52).

Notable Quotes:

“The cruelty is the point. They want people to break… and to voluntarily self-deport.” — Rep. Rob Menendez (31:55)
“The stain on Republicans for enabling this, and not just enabling it but pumping $38 billion into it last year to expand this system, that stain will last forever.” — Miles Taylor (37:52)

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7. DHS Threats to Sanctuary Cities & Economic Fallout

• Sabre-rattling Over Airports: DHS threatens to halt Customs processing at major airports in “sanctuary cities;” critics describe it as posturing with little chance of implementation (40:50–43:21).
• Efficacy Questioned: Such actions would harm business and tourism without impacting local political decisions, making it “bananas” in its reasoning (43:09–43:21).

Notable Quote:

“I have never had a bad experience at an airport and thought it’s because of the mayor.” — Dara Lind (43:21)

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8. International Concern: Pope Leo on Artificial Intelligence

• Papal Warning: Pope Leo issues a landmark encyclical calling for urgent political action to regulate and “disarm” artificial intelligence, criticizing both the Trump administration’s stance and Silicon Valley’s resistance to regulation (44:04–45:18).
• Focus: AI as a profound threat to jobs, democracy, and equality—urging leaders to slow development and consider ethical implications.

Notable Quote:

“Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed… This moment needs words capable of attracting attention, awakening consciences, and indicating paths forward for humanity.” — Pope Leo (44:39)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• On GOP pushback:
  “It’s not a great sign in politics when members of your own base have to beg you to focus on the issues your base cares about.” — Nicolle Wallace (01:11)

• On the DOJ’s corruption:
  “No other attorney general or deputy attorney general for that matter, in recent history... has been rebuked in such explicit terms...” — Glenn Thrush (06:07)

• On slush fund optics:
  “The optics problem is so obviously bad... Republicans are going to have to run on this fall. Because even if it goes down, Democrats are going to use this against them rightfully.” — Chris Hayes (09:15)

• On intimidation:
  “No CEO is willing to speak up about it. They privately tell Andrew Ross Sorkin that they’re scared of being attacked by the president.” — Chris Hayes (25:15)

• On the ICE hunger strike:
  “We are ripping apart families. We’re causing tremendous hardship... we all have a duty to speak up and not be complicit in this very, very cruel system.” — Protester (27:55)

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Segment Timestamps

• 01:01–02:28 – Republican pushback on Trump’s slush fund and focus
• 05:46–07:28 – DOJ internal turmoil, Attorney General Todd Blanche’s liability
• 09:15–12:46 – Legal and political assault on the slush fund
• 17:15–20:33 – Grand jury manipulation and DOJ’s credibility crisis
• 23:01–25:16 – Lawfare as intimidation, fear among CEOs
• 27:55–33:16 – ICE detention center protests, hunger strike testimony
• 40:50–43:21 – DHS sabre-rattling over sanctuary city airports
• 44:04–45:18 – Pope Leo’s AI encyclical

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Conclusion

This episode offers an unvarnished look at internal Republican discontent, a Justice Department wracked by cronyism and failures, and harrowing immigration realities—all set against a backdrop of legal challenges and escalating political risk for Trump and the GOP. Closing with international warnings about AI, the episode underscores the interconnected crises confronting American democracy, governance, and humanity.

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Transcript

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Glenn Thrush]

This is our taxpayer money.

[Nicole Wallace]

It should be going to the citizens

[Chris Hayes]

for what they need. You know, don't these wealthy people have enough money already?

[Glenn Thrush]

Are you concerned the optics of this could hurt Republican chances of holding on

[Chris Hayes]

to places like this?

[Nicole Wallace]

I think it could. It certainly could. Hi again Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. It's not a great sign in politics when members of your own base have to beg you to focus on the issues your base cares about. One Trump voter living in a swing congressional district warning Donald Trump that his $1.8 billion slush fund and his refusal to focus on affordability could cause Republicans to lose his district. Donald Trump's obsession with political retribution and bolstering and bandaging up his own ego as Americans face higher and higher prices but no end in sight may finally be using up the Republican Party's seemingly endless vats of patience. Here's Republican Senator Thom Tillis.

[Chris Hayes]

Look, you're talking about people who assaulted Capitol police officers on January 6th were then convicted. Many of them pled guilty or they were convicted by a jury of their peers. They could be eligible for this. This is all a distraction and some people even think it may look like self dealing. I think whoever advised the President on this being a wise idea should not see they should not plan on coming in the office on Monday.

[Nicole Wallace]

Just a note, some of us have always been talking about people who assaulted police officers. That has been the whole point for years now. Even the conservative Wall Street Journal editorial board has weighed in on this, though in an op ed entitled quote, trump has lost the governing plot. The Wall Street Journal editorial board writing this quote, trump's politics have always been largely personal, but in his second term it has become self indulgent even by his standards. The Trump name on everything, the Beltway Arch and other monuments to French like grandeur and most of all the politics of retribution and lawfare as he seeks to ruin anyone he thinks has wronged him. Trump needs a second year reset or he is headed toward a second term failure. Now despite those high level this were all Republicans. There's a Wall Street Journal editorial page. It's Republican Thom Tillis. Despite those intra MAGA warnings, Donald Trump isn't listening or slowing down. He shows no signs of pulling back on his obsession and quest for retribution and revenge. And instead, I don't know, focusing on gas prices. No, instead Trump's Justice Department has been busy hiding the details of the criminal cases of January 6th. Defendants including one man who faced six separate state charges of soliciting a minor. In a social media post, DOJ called the information they removed, quote, partisan propaganda, end quote. Donald Trump continuing to obsess over political retribution and self dealing even as his own party takes to the airwaves to beg him to wake up and spell the public's outrage is where we begin the hour. New York Times Justice Department reporter Gwen Fresh is here. Also joining us, Margaret Donovan. She was Captain in the JAG Corps and is the former Assistant U.S. attorney for the District of Connecticut. She's now a visiting lecturer at Yale Law. Also joining as former DHS chief of staff during Trump's first term. Miles Taylor is here. Glenn Zorch, let me start with you and the Ben Rose just made a great point about how because the authoritarian tactics get mushed in with the political analysis, we sometimes ascribe more political prowess to the things Trump does because it has the effect politically of quieting and quelling dissent inside the Republican Party. Some of that seems to be lifting largely with people like Thomas Massie saying, you know, down but not out. You got seven more months of me. Tillis having a big, I don't know what seeming to release nine years of Bob Corker like disgust with Donald Trump. I think Bob Corker was the last Republican to be as disgusted by Donald Trump as Tom Tillis was over the weekend on the Sunday shows. But the political sort of rebukes are following months now of judicial rebukes from judges even once appointed by people like George W. Bush and Donald Trump. And one thing that we didn't lift into this conversation is the rebuke of Todd Blanche himself over the criminal case the judge argues manufactured against Kilmar Brego Garcia. Just talk about Todd Blanche as a political liability for Donald Trump today.

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, I mean, you know, one of the things that's interesting is this differentiation that Tillis and others attempt to make between Donald Trump and the people who are advising him. As if Donald Trump is taking anyone's advice to take these maximalist positions. And the same thing holds true for Todd Blanche. Todd Blanche is doing what Donald Trump wants him to do. I think if given his druthers, Blanche would be a relatively vanilla, if somewhat MAGA flavored attorney general. But Trump is demanding these things of Todd Blanche. And if you, if you want to have any evidence of that, every time Trump mentions Blanche's name, he says acting Attorney General Todd Blanche. But, but you're absolutely right. On the Abrego Garcia case in particular, no other attorney general or deputy attorney general for that matter, in recent history, really post Watergate history, has been rebuked in such explicit terms in terms of fostering an environment in which facts were mischaracterized. And as my colleague Alan Foyer documented so wonderfully in a piece today on the way that grand juries are responding to this, up and down the line, you see prosecutors working under Blanche who are either being accused of mischaracterizing information, cherry picking the jurors. We've really never seen anything like this. And people have got to understand that this is not common practice. Whatever the Trump administration is saying about this just being typical business, that is not true. This is extraordinarily different and divergent from the norms and principles the department has abided by in the past.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, and that's before we get to the slush fund. I've never seen something sort of spoil in the sunlight of press coverage as quickly as the $1.8 billion slush fund. Glenn, any second thoughts about giving cash payments to convicted child molesters?

[Glenn Thrush]

There's literally nobody that I've spoken to in decision making positions in this administration, in the Justice Department, I should say, who think this was a good idea. Nobody. This is a Trump idea. It doesn't matter if it's a good idea. My father used to say to me, my father was a Navy veteran. He used to say there's a right way and there's a wrong way and there's a Navy way. Right. There's the right way, there's a wrong way, and then there's the Trump way. I think the general sense is that Donald Trump has issued this Order. Todd Blanche is an Article 2 guy. He's Trump's former defense lawyer. He's in for a dime and he's in for $1.8 billion.

[Nicole Wallace]

Miles Taylor, why it matters, though, is that the politics are changing by the hour. You had today. South Carolina Republicans reject, rebuke, whatever word you want to use. The Trump White House pressure campaign to redraw their maps. You have voters going out and doing what they can do every two and four years, and that is vote. And you have Republicans. I won't call it a spine yet, but at least finding some vocal cords adjacent to the spine and attacking him as Trump. And trust me, I've worked for politicians with low approval ratings. As Trump gets down to 27, 26, 25%, he will find it very difficult to land Air Force One anywhere other than the rubies red dots in the rubies red counties or the rubies red states.

[Chris Hayes]

It's the optics, Nicole, and the reality both colliding to do political damage to this administration. I mean, the optics problem is so obviously bad. You've laid it out. The optics problem on the slush fund. That's why you had two dozen Republican senators let Acting Attorney General Todd Blanch have it in a meeting last week, something this administration wasn't used to. They were hoping that Republicans were just going to rubber stamp this for them like they've been rubber stamping things for the president. And instead, you saw the pictures of Todd Blanche's face afterwards. He looked beleaguered. To say the best. He is not in a good position, Donald Trump, to sustain this optically. But then there's the reality, as you note, of where these payments might go, the legal weakness of this entire thing, the fact that if they just award money to people allegedly prosecuted in the last administration, it will wither in the courts, if it ever even got that far. Here's the thing. It's not just the January 6th police officers that defended the Capitol who are suing. I know that there are a number of lawsuits being planned in addition to that one against this slush fund because there are so many legal areas to take it down. In fact, at defiance.org we are part of one of the efforts to go bring another lawsuit against this slush fund. It's not going to survive. But what will survive, unfortunately, is the terrible ball and chain optics that Republicans are going to have to run on this fall. Because even if it goes down, Democrats are going to use this against them rightfully. And the president's allies are going to suffer. They Know that. And as you saw in South Carolina, they're running from him.

[Nicole Wallace]

Miles, can you tell us, is your lawsuit on the side of the actual victims of the violence, the law enforcement officials, or is it on the side of the. Which seems outrageously corrupt, part of the settlement that says Donald Trump and his sons and his companies can never be audited ever, ever, ever, for things they've already done or may not have even thought of doing yet.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, it won't be brought in our [e-mail], but we are helping to support the efforts of another amazing nonprofit organization to bring a case that I think, Nicole, will be even stronger than the one that the police officers brought. Now, I think morally what the officers brought is probably the most important case, but there's an even stronger legal case to be brought against this slush fund, and I think that there are several others brewing out there. I mean, this thing, if it's not gonna get smothered by Republicans on Capitol Hill, it is absolutely going to get decimated in the court of law, and they're gonna have to fight back case after case after case against this. If judges don't combine them all together because it's so obviously weak, it's so obviously illegal, I cannot imagine a penny goes to these criminals. At the end of the day, I

[Nicole Wallace]

mean, Mario, speak to weak and illegal. I mean, the, the, the politics of it, I guess, in normal times are so incredibly toxic. That convicted child molester serving a life sentence, based on reporting in npr, promised one of his child victims part of his promised restitution from Donald Trump if he kept quiet about the crimes he was committing against this child. I mean, it doesn't get any sicker, any more depraved, any more toxic than that.

[Margaret Donovan]

Yeah, Nicole, this is overt in your face corruption. And what's more troubling is the sort of shocking nature of some of the people who could be entitled to these claims seems to be condoned by a group of people who do not believe that they are ever leaving office or that they will ever face consequences. And so that's the concerning undertone to all of this, to me, is that it is so in your face. It makes you wonder whether these people think that this, they are actually going to leave office one day and face consequences for this. You know, there are ways to challenge your criminal investigation, your conviction. One of the things that concerns me around the commentary around the slush fund is that there are some proposals to just prohibit people who assaulted cops or just prohibit people who had follow on offenses like what you just identified. Agreed. We should prohibit everybody, you know, all of those people from benefiting from this. But I think it just shouldn't exist in the first place. I don't think there should be a carve out for anybody. There are ways to challenge your investigation and your conviction. If you believe that the government has wronged you, it starts at the trial phase. You can move to dismiss your case for vindictive or selective prosecution. You can move to suppress evidence. You can move to say a agent who testified against you did not properly prepare evidence or had a bias after the fact. After you're convicted, you can move for what's called a Bivens action and try to sue agents or investigators in their personal capacity. You can make a claim under something called the Federal Torts Claims Act. There are all of these frameworks that exist for people who have been wronged by the government. The problem with the January 6th defendants and those related to them is that nothing wrong happened in any of their prosecutions. Their cases are not going to make it through those normal courses. And so that leaves only this as an option to basically benefit from corruption in order to get money.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and I want to press you. I mean, the follow on is part of a larger pattern of rewriting history. So I want to pick up with you on that and why that is underway. I have to sneak in a break before we do that. Also ahead, the story Glenn Thrush mentioned reporting in the New York Times about how Donald Trump's politicization of the Justice Department it is causing all kinds of problems for government prosecutors. As grand jury after grand jury and judge after judge reject the cases, they are losing trust in what those prosecutors are doing in front of them. We'll bring you that reporting next. Also had violent clashes outside an immigration detention center in New Jersey. ICE agents in riot gear and pepper spray used that pepper spray against protesters. The protesters included a United States senator. While on the inside, detainees are reportedly on hunger strike against inhumane conditions there. We'll talk to a lawmaker who was on the scene later in the hour. DEADLINE White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

21/ we're back with Glenn, Margaret and Miles. Margaret, I want to read you from the story that Glenn referenced in the New York Times about what's happening inside grand juries. April Perry recounted from the bench on Thursday how prosecut Judge April Perry recounted from the bench on Thursday how prosecutors had spoken to grand jurors outside the grand jury room a major breach of protocol had improperly coached them that the evidence they had presented was particularly strong. Prosecutors also stacked the deck in their own favor by removing from the panel some grand jurors who have voted against them when considering an early version of the charges. Making matters even worse, they tried to hide these maneuvers by redacting the grand jury transcripts. That is, until Judge Perry ordered them to give her the full copies. The government's missteps were bad enough to necessitate tossing out the case against the critics of the president president's immigration plan just days before it was supposed to go to trial. This is, this is really important reporting and really rare that we get to see what's happening inside grand juries and what judges are having to do. But if you think about the fact that for 10 years we've been covering what I think we shorthanded the assault on the rule of law, you're actually seeing what happens when you lose the rule of law in a democracy. The whole system falls apart. And I wonder, Margaret, what the what the best case scenario is for ever putting it back together?

[Margaret Donovan]

Well, I think it's going to be a long rebuilding phase. Alan's story that you just read from, and he has been great on covering these issues. It also outlines instances where grand juries have just rejected indictments before. And that's when the system works almost as it was intended. As strange as that sounds, when the framers wrote the Constitution, they wrote in the grand jury system as almost a fail safe, because that was actually very important in the lead up to the American Revolution, that a jury of your peers could reject crimes if they didn't think that it actually, whatever happened, actually amounted to a crime. And we've seen that at various inflection points in American history. We've seen juries, either through jury nullification or through grand juries rejecting indictments, basically flex the muscle of the citizenry in rejecting these cases. But the excerpt from Judge Perry that you just outlined, in most of these instances, going all the way back to really the beginning of the administration and seeing these inexperienced, unqualified U.S. attorneys fumble their way through attempted politically based indictments, the incompetence of the U.S. attorneys usually outweighs their corruption. And what I mean by that is the case gets tossed on procedural grounds because they just don't know what they're doing. And the concerning thing about the excerpt that you just read from Judge Perry is that in that instance, but for whatever caused the defense counsel to think to look under the hood of those grand jury transcripts, you actually can get pretty far in a criminal case. It looks like those prosecutors were able to, obviously they indicted all six of those defendants and the case was proceeding to trial. And so you just wonder what's out there that we are not seeing. It erodes trust. And it really is going to be a very long rebuilding phase to regain that trust for the Department of Justice, to gain the trust not just of the federal bench, but also of the people.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, Glenn, can you try to quantify? I know the Times has had really the best reporting of all. The resignations around, the efforts to criminalize elected officials in Minnesota or Chicago, around the protests around the military, around the political cases in Tacomi and Tisch. I mean, how would you quantify the hollowing out of the Justice Department prosecutors in terms of just volume and then in terms of brain drain?

[Glenn Thrush]

It's hard to kind of say because. Because a bunch of people left. I think, in anticipation of some of this, we saw in Minnesota, for instance, I think we're up to a half dozen, a half dozen AUSAs, including senior people and some, some FBI agents. I think in general, what we were looking at in the criminal division, we did a story on this a couple of months ago was something between 7 and 15% across various offices, which doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a ton. And you're talking about people who were disproportionately experienced because most of the people who left, many of the people who left were able to get pretty decent jobs in the private sector. So you were really pulling away the most experienced people. The one thing I'd like to say to kind of, to piggyback on what Margaret was saying is they're losing every one of these cases, basically. And as Margaret knows, because she's represented a couple of these FBI agents who were, who were terminated without cause. None of these people were given, you know, were given a reasonable process or. And in most of these cases, in none of these cases that I can think of was evidence presented that they had done anything wrong. And when you get to the compensation fund, some of our reporting is showing that part of what this commission is going to do is investigate an attempt to fact find misconduct or criminal activity on the part of these Justice Department officials who brought cases against J6ers and Donald Trump. And what do you think the department's been doing for the past year and a half? They haven't found anything. I can't think of a single incident, and I'm even talking about minor errors that were not volitional, where they have found significant misconduct or even dereliction of duty on the part of prosecutors or FBI agents. So it's like, what are they going to find? How are they going to determine how to give money to anybody when they haven't been able to prove anything thus far?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. I mean, Miles, their record of investigating the investigators is like, I think they're batting zero. I think they had a better chance when John Durham, who at least was a real and respected prosecutor, was looking and he also found nothing in terms of erroneous predication of the investigation into Russia. What do you. I know that the incompetence is the. Is the point, but what is the end game?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, the end game is to create fear, Nicole. Right. The process is the punishment. And I'll get to that in a second. But I want to take your point about the magnitude. Just think about this. Our friend Kyle Cheney over at Politico, I think, as of earlier this month, documented that there had been 10,000 cases judges had thrown out of people illegally put in immigration custody. That's just one type of case. 10,000 thrown out. Right. There's a 9 to 1 loss ratio when the government gets challenged on illegal detention. That is breathtaking Right. And that's just immigration. Then you look at the big constitutional suits against this administration. Big, big separation of power issues, big violations of law. There are hundreds of those cases, I think north of 700 in the courts. And the administration has been losing those two to one in the lower courts. They are on a crime spree across this administration. The numbers show it. And you can't believe the administration when they say, well, that's liberal activist judges. 72% of the time Republican appointed judges are ruling against them. They're getting their butts kicked in the courts because they're breaking the law. But here's the thing, Nicole. They kind of don't care if they win these cases because their goal is just to scare people about getting sued. And if you need evidence of that, Andrew Ross Sorkin the other day at CNBC, he noted that CEOs are refusing to even talk about how Trump is tanking the economy.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

Think about the fact that he's ruining these companies, putting them in danger from high inflation. But no CEO is willing to speak up about it.

[Congressman Rob Menendez]

Why?

[Chris Hayes]

They privately tell Andrew Ross Sorkin that they're scared of being attacked by the president. So the fear campaign is working to a certain extent. It's making folks afraid to go up against Trump because even if these lawsuits won't be won, they're just worried about having to be sued in the first place. That's why the Trump administration is doing this.

[Nicole Wallace]

I believe everything Andrew Sirkin reports. But can I just say, if you're a CEO and you're scared, you shouldn't be a CEO. I mean, you're there, you're a leader. And in this moment, everyone is going to have to answer for what they did, especially every leader. And if the answer is nothing because I was scared, that is pathetic. Myles, you stick around a little bit longer. Glenn Thrush, Margaret Donovan, thank you for starting us off this hour. It's great to see both of you. When we come back, another day of protests at an ICE detention center in New Jersey where detainees are on a reported hunger strike strike against inhumane conditions there. One of the lawmakers taking part in those protests will be our next guest. So stay with us.

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[Chris Hayes]

21/ Artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes and as part of my podcast why Is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.

[Margaret Donovan]

We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this Happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now. Start listening today wherever you get your podcasts. Why is it so important for you to be here?

[Nicole Wallace]

Because I feel what we are doing in this country is so unjust and inhumane. We are ripping apart families we're calling causing tremendous hardship and we all have a duty to speak up and not be complicit in this very, very cruel system. This is citizens speaking out about why she is protesting outside an ICE detention center in New Jersey. They are undeterred today, despite the chaotic scene that unfolded there yesterday. Dozens have been showing up to the Delaney hall facility in Newark to support the reported hunger strike taking placed by detainees inside the facility because of inhumane conditions they are facing. But clashes erupted there yesterday. Masked ICE agents pepper sprayed the protesters who were blocking access to the facility. They included Democratic Senator Andy Kim, seen here receiving first aid. At one point, New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill joined the protesters, but she says she was not allowed inside Delaney Hall. Governor, writing this in a statement, quote, my request to access the facility was denied this morning, raising even more questions about what they are trying to hide from public view. I will keep fighting for answers and to hold ICE accountable. In response to the protests, DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen called them a quote, political stunt by New Jersey politicians and denied that there is a hunger strike taking place in the facility. I want to bring into our coverage Congressman Rob Menendez, who was there today to support detainees who have reportedly begun a hunger strike. Let me start with the hunger strike. Why would the Secretary deny that a hunger strike is taking place and what evidence do you have that it indeed is, as has been reported?

[Congressman Rob Menendez]

Yeah, so appreciate you having me. One is DHS is using their definition of when a hunger strike happens. It requires individuals not having a meal for three consecutive days, nine consecutive meals. So they're trying to hang their hat on that. The reality is over 300 individuals at Delaney hall signed a letter regarding the conditions there, regarding their treatment there and informing their loved ones that they would be going on a hunger strike. In my last several visits, it's been confirmed over and over again by both male and female detainees that they are in fact going on a hunger strike to raise awareness about the conditions that are the conditions inside Delaney Hall.

[Nicole Wallace]

And just tell us what the conditions are that the detainees want people to know about, want to bring attention to.

[Congressman Rob Menendez]

Sure. So you know, the inadequate health care continues to be a challenge. Many of the individuals there have serious health challenges. There are pregnant women who are being held at Delaney Hall. The food continues to be a problem. The living conditions, the lack of ventilated air as increasingly people have gotten sicker there. But the top line that everyone that I've spoken to the last several weeks wants us to make clear is that these people have no criminal records. The overwhelming majority have absolutely no criminal records. They are mothers and fathers, a pastor from Elizabeth. They are married to US citizens. They have US citizen children, two 18 year olds, one of whom was supposed to be graduating from high school next month and also to be there for her brother's ninth birthday. And she won't be because she's at Delaney Hall. These are the people that are government that the Trump administration is rounding up through communities across the country and holding in these private detention centers. They should not be there. They should be with their families. They should be back in their communities. And that's really what's at issue here.

[Nicole Wallace]

NBC News is reporting that suicides are rising in ICE detention 911 calls detail serious cases of self harm as they refuse to allow access to the governor. What are you concerned about in terms of what's being covered up?

[Congressman Rob Menendez]

Well, I mean I've seen it. They're trying to break people in these privately run detention centers. They are constantly forcing voluntary deportation agreements in front of people. You know, it's all meant to. The cruelty is the point. And they want people to break. They want people to voluntarily self deport. They don't. They want to try to remove as many people from the country as possible. The Trump administration does. And that's been clear since day one, when Stephen Miller and others had quotas that they wanted ICE to meet across the country. It's why Republicans want to give them another $70 billion. But the important thing for the American people to know is, you know, Trump had campaigned on the worst of the worst. But I gotta tell you, in Delaney hall and Elizabeth Detention center, that's not who we're seeing there. We're seeing members of our community, people that we go to church with, people that we send our kids to school with, people that do so much in our communities, who have no criminal record, who pose no threats to our communities. That is who our government is apprehending and detaining right now. And for the Delaney hall, the GEO Group alone, that is a billion dollar contract to hold our neighbors in this facility and is making them sicker, is making their mental health deteriorate, is making them think about signing a voluntary self departure because they can't stand to be inside that facility any longer.

[Nicole Wallace]

Congressman, the people of Minneapolis I think showed the rest of the country what standing up for our neighbors looks like. It's happening in New Jersey as well. What is your message to people who want to be there for their neighbors and want to give voice to people who don't feel like they have one right now?

[Congressman Rob Menendez]

Well, there's, there's so many ways to show up and I just encourage everyone to lend their voice in any way that you can, whether it's physically showing up, whether it's, you know, bringing, you know, some canned goods to a local food pantry that's helping so many immigrant families who are scared to leave their, their homes. But at the end of the day, we need more American to speak up because I don't believe this is who we are as a country. You know, locking up pregnant women, locking up 18 year olds and having them miss their high school graduation. I don't believe that's who we are as a country. And we can't allow the Trump administration to strip our humanity, to strip our care for our neighbors. That is what we are fighting for right now, is a fight for the soul of our nation. And the more people that realize that's what's on the line and join that effort, then I do believe we can navigate out of this treacherous moment that we are in and reclaim our tomorrow tomorrows for my children, for your children, for your grandchildren, for everyone who loves this country.

[Nicole Wallace]

Carson, Rob Menendez, thank you for bearing witness and for joining us today to talk about it.

[Congressman Rob Menendez]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Nicole Wallace]

Joining our coverage senior fellow for the American Immigration Council, Dara Lind is here. Miles is still with us as well. Dara, I worry that the laws of relativity have forced us to brush this issue under the rug where Kristi Noem was so brazenly, I don't even know the word incompetent, sadistic, spectacularly out of depth. And because the person who replaced her is running a little bit more under the radar, it doesn't get as much attention. But communities are still being ripped apart. Suicide, suicide numbers are undeniably rising in ICE detention. They're limiting access for oversight for lawmakers at every level. And there is no end game. I mean, these are people whose lives have been upended. Children, pregnant women, mothers, and the vast majority of them not criminals, not violent at all.

[Dara Lind]

I mean, I do think that there is an end game, and actually Congressman Menendez did a great job in bringing it to attention, is that these are, these are cases in which individuals who are in detention are being told on a daily basis, it will only get worse for you unless you sign a piece of paper saying you agree to leave the country or be removed from the country. We are seeing so much the number of voluntary departure orders that were entered in immigration court hit levels in February and march that are 10 times what they were under the Biden administration. And every time you go into an immigration court and see what people are saying, it's, I don't want to leave, but I don't want to be detained because they understand that there's a connection between the conditions that they're suffering and what the Trump administration wants to have happen. What's happening at Delaney hall right now is the, the, the effort to bring attention to it is novel. But none of the conditions, none of the allegations that are being raised in the letter signed by detainees is in any way out of the ordinary. For where ICE detention is right now, it's all overcrowded. It's all inadequate medical care. It's all a lack of desire to provide proactive medical attention for people who might need it. And there's, it's, on one level, basic math, right? You can't just infinitely shove more and more people into a finite space. But on another level, it does appear to be that the people who are working in detention centers understand this to be a coercive tactic.

[Nicole Wallace]

Miles Taylor, we talk Liz Cheney, I think, coined the term the stain that will live forever on Republicans over Their acquiescence to Donald Trump's attempts to rewrite the history of January 6th. I think this falls in that category as well. These are human beings. We have a system for the worst of the worst. It's the criminal justice system. And if people commit crimes, they are not exonerated. If they entered the country illegally. The vast majority of the people who've been detained and who are being dehumanized as state policy are people innocent of committing any crimes. What is your thought of the lack of intensity around this issue among Republicans right now?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, the operative words that you just said, Nicole, are state policy. Because anyone who's watching this, who thinks, well, maybe Delaney hall is an outlier, they would be wrong to think that because Delaney hall is representative of these facilities that they are building all around the country, what's happening there happened in Alligator, Alcatraz. Delaney hall was one of these recently converted facilities from last year that DHS is trying to build dozens of across the United States, many of which have already been called out by organizations like Amnesty International for these types of conditions. This is not a one off. This is what they are trying to build. And you made a very important point, Nicole, that this is built on top of a very big lie about how these people are the worst of the worst. Let me attach some data to that. 75 to 90% of the people in ICE custody in recent months have no criminal record. Nonviolent people. This is not what they told us they were going to do. They said they were going to detain the worst of the worst and deport them. No, they're detaining innocent people. But that's not the only lie. We talked about it in the last segment. They said that they were lawfully detaining these people. They're not. There's been 10,000 rulings from federal judges to say that these detentions are illegal. Now you understand why ICE is trying to pressure people to self deport. Because they know if these cases make their way in front of a judge, a judge is gonna rule against the administration. So they're pressuring people behind the scenes to do something they wouldn't otherwise do. And they're trying to make the conditions bad enough to get them out of here. But then there is that last lie, which is that they keep going back to, well, the conditions in these facilities meet federal standards. I'm gonna tell you, they do not. Location by location, we're hearing about rotten food, women being forced to sit in their menstrual blood for days and not being given proper hygie. We hear about rooms of sensory deprivation to hold people accountable. This is insane stuff. This is the type of stuff that in previous administrations wouldn't have just gotten folks fired, but investigated. And now it's happening in mass. And I think the stain on Republicans for enabling this, and not just enabling it, but pumping $38 billion into it last year to expand this system, that stain will last forever. And we're going to be fighting to reverse it for years.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, a slush fund if you beat up cops on January 6. But people who committed no crimes, detained in these heinous conditions, that is who they are. When we come back, some new reporting to tell you about. The new Homeland Security secretary has a plan that could lead to chaos at an airport near you. We'll tell you about it next.

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[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Dara and Miles. Dar, let me read you this In Reuters official warns US could halt Immigration Customs Processing at sanctuary City Airports According to sources quote, Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen privately warned that authorities could stop processing international travelers and cargo at major US Airports in sanctuary cities that have declined to cooperate with the Trump administration's immigration crackdown. Mullen privately told travel executives last week that the department could opt to stop Customs and Immigration's processing of international travelers at airports in cities such as Denver, Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York City, Newark, Seattle and San Francisco. As if the economic destruction wrought by the war in Iran isn't enough, the idea that they're going to stop processing cargo and international passengers in Denver, Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Newark, Seattle and San Francisco seems like a bad idea.

[Dara Lind]

It's honestly, this is one of those where I think that they're enjoying rattling the saber. And I wouldn't, I am not necessarily convinced that they're actually going to go through with it. Part of it is just that fundamentally part of the mission of Customs and Border Protection is to facilitate legitimate trade and travel. Everyone who is working at that organization, who's been working there since before 2025, understands that as a core part of the mission. The other part is it's not clear to me who exactly they think is going like, are the people who are traveling into those airports. They're not people who necessarily live there. They're tourists. They're people who are they're business travelers. They're people who are visiting from, who are coming in from other parts of the world and going to other parts of the country. And when they don't even have a definition of sanctuary city that sticks, they've used a few far one of the lists that they published of so called sanctuary jurisdictions was so over broad that a group of sheriffs had to call them out on it and say we are not sanctuary. You know, you guys are being way overbought about this. It's not at all clear what they think is going to change, whether they think they're somehow going to get passengers to say, oh, I need to call my governor, I need to call my city council person because the federal government wouldn't process me in a timely fashion and now all my fruit is spoiled rather than getting processed into my stores.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, to your point, Dara, too, it's like a person from another country who doesn't even necessarily know who the mayor or governor is of a city that they're visiting. It's bananas.

[Dara Lind]

I have never had a bad experience at an airport and thought it's because of the mayor.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. Or the governor. Darlin, thank you for joining us. Miles Taylor, thank you for spending the hour with us. When we come back, Pope Leo is sounding the alarm again, this time over what may be one of the biggest issues of our time, artificial intelligence. We'll tell you what he's calling for and who he's turning to after a quick break. Pope Leo released the first encyclical of his papacy yesterday. That's basically the church's version of a white paper. It focuses on the threats posed to all of humanity by AI or artificial intelligence. At the Vatican, alongside AI experts, including the co founder of Anthropic, who recently found himself at odds with the Trump administration, Pope Leo said this, quote, artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed. The word is strong, I know, but deliberately chosen because this moment needs words capable of attracting attention, awakening consciences and indicating paths forward for humanity. Pope Leo seems to be reflecting a widespread sentiment, at least among Americans, who express fears over impacts like job losses for workers, disinformation and deepening inequalities. Pope Leo called for, quote, more active political involvement that is capable of slowing things down when everything is accelerating, putting the pope not only at odds with the tech billionaires of Silicon Valley who are resistant to any regulation, but the Trump White House as well. We'll stay on top of this story. One more break. We'll be right back. Don't forget to check out our conversation with Ben Rhodes. He's our guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. You just scan the QR code on your screen to listen or download it wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.

[Chris Hayes]

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