← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Not just fair, but essential"
00:42:28
Alicia Menendez, in for Nicolle Wallace, on the legality of boat strikes in the Eastern Pacific - after 14 people were killed on three vessels Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth said were carrying narcotics.
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- [01:04]
E
To be clear, we've got no information. I've been invited to no briefing. But a briefing is not enough to overcome the Constitution. The Constitution says that when you go to war, Congress has to vote on it. And so far they have alleged that these people are drug dealers. No one said their name, no one said what evidence. No one said whether they're armed. And we've had no evidence presented. So at this point, I would call them extrajudice judicial killings. And this is akin to what China does to Iran does with drug dealers. They summarily execute people without presenting evidence to the public. So it's wrong.
- [01:39]
G
Hi again, everyone. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. And it is 5:00 clock here in Washington, D.C. these days, it is not common to hear Republicans say pretty much anything negative about Donald Trump. So Republican Senator Rand Paul's calling out of the strikes launched by this administration against boats they say are smuggling drugs. Well, that's notable. And Paul made those comments before the news. We learned today from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth that yesterday the US Launched three more strikes in the eastern Pacific, hitting four vessels which Hegseth says were carrying narcotics. Fourteen people died in these strikes and one person survived, bringing the total of those killed in this administration's recent military boat strikes to 57. As the strikes continue, so do the question of their legality. As the New York Times reports, a broad range of outside experts in laws governing the use of armed force have said the campaign is illegal because the military is not permitted to deliberately target civilians, even criminal suspects who are not directly participating in armed hostilities. But the Trump administration has asserted that the president has the power to determine, without any authorization from Congress, the drug cartels and those who work for them are enemy combatants. In addition to using the military to carry out potentially illegal strikes, Trump is also using the military as yet another audience to air his grievances in front of try to rile up like those at a campaign rally. Earlier, he spoke to US Navy personnel on the USS George Washington that is stationed in Tokyo about the speech. Politico reports. What's most striking is Trump's willingness to use the troops as a foil for his highly partisan rhetoric. He repeatedly condemned his predecessor. Joe Biden told his audience the 2020 election had been rigged and savage Democratic governors who resist military incursions into their cities. This was the third politically charged speech Trump has made to members of the US Forces in a month. It's a clear break from any of his predecessors in recent times and is happening at the very moment Trump is increasingly seeking to deploy the military for domestic law enforcement here in the US it's making some members of the military privately very nervous indeed. And that is where we start this hour with retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Kirtling is with us. Also joining us, managing editor of the Bulwark and MSNBC contributor Sam Stein, and host of the Independent Americans podcast and founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, Paul Rykoff. Paul, you had a lengthy tweet that we were all sharing today. This is in part what you wrote. Quote, in normal times, it would be grounds for apologies, shame or reprimand or impeachment. And it should be now. Number two, never normalize it. It's not normal. It's not acceptable. Not in America. How do you stop the normalization of speeches like this?
- [04:34]
F
Number one, you focus on it and you have this conversation because there's a lot going on in America and the world today. And I think this is one of the most important things happening, because the larger story, and I'm going to keep saying this over and over again, is that Donald Trump can do anything he wants with the most powerful military on the planet. That includes striking boats off the coast of Venezuela, striking Iran, and includes continuing to use our troops as prop and to, I think, despicably, shamefully, dangerously politicize them, drag them into his political battles, use them to attack the press and intimidate his enemies. These are very, very important guardrails that guard not just our troops, but our democracy and every time he does it, he brings our troops lower. He reduces the trust that the country and the world has in them. And it's happening at a time when he's also deploying them in U.S. streets. And I think it's important to remind people this is not a glitch, it's not an error. This is a strategy. This has always been the strategy and they keep doing it. It's almost a daily political inappropriate, unacceptable speech, not just from Trump, but also from Hegseth, from Vance. It's a strategy and so far they're continuing to do it without anybody stopping them, Congress, their own party or anyone else.
- [05:44]
G
Well, General Herdling, I want to talk a little bit about that dangerous politicization that Paul just referenced there and play you just a bit more of what Trump said to the men and women of the U.S. navy.
- [05:55]
E
We have cities that are troubled. We can't have cities that are troubled. And we're sending in our National Guard. And if we need more than the National Guard, we'll send more than the National Guard because we're going to have safe cities. We're not going to have people killed in our cities. And whether people like that or not, that's what we're doing.
- [06:14]
G
General Hardling, Paul touched on two issues that I want you to pick up on. One is the impact that this has on our troops. And two is the rationale for Donald Trump. Why is he doing this?
- [06:27]
D
Yeah, I'm going to agree with everything Paul said, Alicia, and what I saw just now in that clip you paid is a bunch of stone cold faced Marines and Navy personnel behind him. They were likely told by their commanders, you've got to keep your professional presence. This is a political event. Make sure you show the nation that you are professionals and apolitical. Now, there were times during that presentation, I watched the whole thing where they were laughing and shouting and it was because President Trump prompted them with things that had to do with the Navy or things that they see on their ships. But it really is kind of the President walking a line between, as Paul said, using the troops as a backdrop. And I would guarantee, Alicia, I don't know the percentages, but you go to those 5,000 troops that were in that aircraft carrier hangar for this speech and I would bet you that a percentage of them don't like President Trump and voted for the other person last time around or was thinking that his politics are amiss. That's the issue. You don't politicize those who swear to defend the Constitution and who Take orders from a civil authority. When the President gets into bashing his opponents like he did with President Biden or the Democrats or giving his perceived grievances in front of those soldiers, they better remain straight faced. And the one thing I'd counter a little bit with what Paul was saying is yes, we should not treat this as normal, but I consider that the commanders of these military personnel are just as at fault when their soldiers act this way. They have to remind them that, you know, from the moment you join the military, you are apolitical as long as you're wearing that uniform because you don't support a president or a political party due to politics, you do them because they're supporting the country. And there's a split within that audience and within any audience that the President talks to, unless he gets all of his supporters standing behind him like he did purposely at Fort Bragg a few months ago. So these are some of the things you have to consider. And truthfully, as a commander, I used to have, when we were in Iraq, I used to have politicians visit our soldiers and I would tell the politician handlers, hey, take pictures with your constituents, knock yourself out, but don't put the soldiers behind you for any kind of political speech. And I wouldn't do it myself. So that's one of the issues that we have to re inform the American public about.
- [09:08]
G
Well, stay on the point, General Hartling. I mean, do you get the sense that there is resistance on the part of these commanders, that there is anyone who's pushing back and says, I don't want you using my troops as a photo op?
- [09:19]
D
I do. I absolutely do. Hell yes, what I would say. But they are sometimes overwhelmed. And when you have the President show up, whatever president it is, it doesn't matter which one, when they show up at your location, the soldiers get a little bit giddy. Truthfully, Alicia. Oh my gosh, the President's coming to see us. Remember, these are 18 to 24 year old young people. They get excited when they're seeing someone this powerful. So it is a requirement for the commanders to remind those troopers, hey, remember your oath, remember who you defend, remember what you stand for and don't let anybody pull you in to a political morass. And the President continues to do this along with his handlers and, and as Paul said, Secretary Hegseth as well, Sam.
- [10:07]
G
This all makes me think of how the President of the United States refers to the Department of Justice and the lawyers there as his lawyers. The way he refers to the US Military as being his military rather than belonging to the country and in service of the Constitution. Can you talk to us a little bit about the timing of what we're watching, this series of what appear to be political rallies and political speeches in front of the troops or with the troops as an audience at the same time that this president is stationing troops in American cities?
- [10:40]
H
Yeah, I mean, it's very evident that Don Trump's view of the executive branch is that it exists in service of his political project, and that extends to the Justice Department. As you noted, Pam Bondi being tasked via stray dms to go after his political opponents. Him literally staffing top ranks of the Justice Department with personal lawyers, the head of the Eastern District of Virginia not being an old lawyer of his, going after his opponent. And so it's very evident in that case. And then with respect to the military, I mean, Pete Hegseth is there because he's a loyalist, frankly. I mean, that's his main qualification. And he has used the military in ways that are unprecedented for a president and clearly fit with a domestic political agenda. In this case, it's his effort to ramp up deportation and detention policies in American cities and ostensibly go after crime, even if it means going against will of the governor of that state. So it's evidence of a pattern that you've hit on, which is that these are not independent branches of governance. These are not entities that will last beyond his presidency per se. They're entities to serve his political project.
- [11:55]
G
Paul, I want you to talk just a little bit. This question of legality. What happens to service members if they are to receive orders that, that they believe are illegal?
- [12:07]
F
They have an obligation to resist them. They have, they have. That's one of the most solemn obligations, is to resist any order that you think is illegal. We all learn it when you go to Fort Benning or when you go to basic training. But I think there's a really important thing that the country has to understand. We have to shift that responsibility away from the troops. They will hold that line, but someone else has to make that case. I don't hear any Democrats, I don't hear any Republicans saying that the orders these people are being given is illegal. We're not going to get it from the Justice Department. We might get it from the courts, but I think too often we sit back and ask 18 and 19 year olds to interpret, you know, legalities of the UCMJ and all this other political maelstrom when leaders have to cut through this narrative and challenge Donald Trump. I've only seen, I think one political leader, Wes Moore, came close to questioning whether or not some of these orders are illegal. But I haven't seen a public case being made by anyone to counter him. And I think that's very important in this moment to have that conversation not just with the troops, with the American people, and help refine what it means to give an illegal order and be specific in what they are recommending that they consider as an illegal order.
- [13:09]
G
Well, I think you are exactly right there. In general, that brings us to this story about the boat strikes that are watching off the coast of Venezuela. You did have Senator Rand Paul calling them extradition killings. Is that what you would characterize them as?
- [13:23]
D
I would from what I wrote. I know right now, Alicia, they are certainly extrajudicial because when you're in international waters, there's a requirement to obey the international laws. No matter how much these rules are justified by some in Congress or the president and staff itself to have airstrikes on suspected drug smuggling vessels in international waters, it's not justified. These are actions that while to some, maybe, some may be happy about it, but it's the individual soldiers, the troopers, the seamen, the sailors who were actually pulling the triggers potentially. And that raises the questions that Paul was just talking about, of legality and legitimacy. Who authorizes the use of deadly force against non state actors, suspected criminals? As it said in the press release by the White House, during peacetime, when there's no war been declared, a war on drugs has not been declared through the Congress other than through the mouth of the president. What standards of evidence apply? How do partner nations perceive these kind of things going on close to or inside of their waters? I can guarantee you they see it as a casus belli, an act of war. So these are all the questions that a military commander will be asking himself or herself as they get these kind of orders. And it's just, it is extradicial. We have seen that when you don't have a judge or a lawyer defending the rights of criminals and you also have a force called the US Coast Guard who are trained in actually doing these kind of things and instead replace them by the US Navy who are not.
- [15:13]
G
Well, Sam, there's standard of evidence and then there's just getting the basic facts right. Here's a fact check from the New York Times on what the president's been saying. Mr. Trump has falsely asserted that each destroyed boat saves 25,000American lives. In reality, about 100,000Americans die each year from drug overdoses. But. But most of those deaths are fentanyl, which comes from labs in Mexico, South America, produces cocaine. I get that he has never sort of relied on the facts actually being correct. But you have Gallego out there, you have Kelly out there saying what is happening is murder. How long is it going to be before more voices join that choir?
- [15:52]
H
You know, it's interesting. I talked with Senator Kelly today for the Bulwark and we were talking a lot about this issue specifically and the lack of transparency around this campaign, the lack of transparency around the decision to target these boats, the legally dubious rationale for this. One of the things that he said which was kind of intriguing to me, but also I think indicative of just the utter darkness around this operation is that the admiral who was overseeing the operations in the military Southern Command, which has jurisdiction over the Caribbean, who retired, they've been trying to track this person down to talk and get some answers or explanations as to what exactly was the reason for his retirement. And they cannot do that. They are not able to do so. And I thought that was intriguing. It goes to the point that we just don't know a lot about what is behind the administration's rationale here. The administration is not communicating a lot with lawmakers. There is frustration, frankly on the Hill over what's happening here because they do have a role to play in authorizing these types of operations and they're obviously not being consulted in this case. But you asked is it going to build to a boiling point? Senator Kelly told me he doubts it because absent Rand Paul, the Senate Republicans are largely acquiescent to what Donald Trump wants to do. And especially so when it comes to issues of military war and these types of operations.
- [17:18]
G
Yeah, this one's interesting too because you have at least a handful that have expressed reservations. But as you know, Sam, when they actually had an opportunity to vote on the Senate floor over whether or not they wanted to restrict these strikes, they weren't willing to go on the record there. General Hertling, just before we go to this point about Admiral Halsey and the fact that we do not know why he chose to retire early into his tenure, though a lot of the reporting suggests that there was tension around the operation near Venezuela. You now have Reuters reporting that US Military officials involved with President Trump's expanding operation in Latin America have been asked to sign non disclosure agreements. That's according to three U.S. officials. How usual or unusual is that? What does it signal to you that.
- [18:05]
D
Gets to off the chart unusual, Alicia? You know, when you're a military senior military commander, three or four star rank, you're part of the executive department. Congress can call you. And if you have a contentious issue that you disagree with the administration on, you're bound by law when you're confirmed to those three and four star ranks to voice your concerns. We've seen it done in the past. I could cite three or four examples in the last couple years where generals testified before Congress that were counter to the administration's thoughts on something. Non disclosure agreements for another executive in the government is just extremely unusual, especially when they are required by law to give their advice and consent, I guess would be a right word to the members of Congress who might be investigating any kind of military action. We wouldn't want it any other way. There is a civil military relationship between members of the administration and those who wear the uniform. But at the same time, those who wear the uniform should be allowed to speak out. And when they don't, you're going to have problems with national strategy and national security.
- [19:22]
G
We all desperately would like to hear from them. Well, no one is going anywhere when we return. Besides once again using the military as a backdrop for a political speech, Donald Trump is also causing a lot of people to question whether he is okay. He seemed to get confused today explaining water to the Navy. He had to be led around the room by the prime minister of Japan. And he's back to bragging about those cognitive tests, you know, the ones that ask you to identify a giraffe or memorize things like man, woman, person, camera, tv. We're going to get to those questions and the dangers they present next. Also ahead, a chilling warning from former federal judge Michael Ludwig, who says that Donald Trump is preparing to be president for life. He's going to be our guest on that, as well as the prosecution of former FBI Director Jim Comey as more than 100 former top justice Department officials say the case against Comey is vindictive and should be dismissed. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.
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- [22:22]
G
Donald Trump, by virtue of the mantle of commander in chief, has the keys to the most lethal fighting force in the history of humankind tucked right there in his pocket. So when the military he oversees carries out strikes in the Caribbean or the Pacific without approval, evidence or due process, scrutiny of Trump's ability to make decisions becomes not just fair but essential. So it is through that prison that we should observe what he had to say in the early morning hours to American troops in Japan about magnets.
- [22:51]
E
Okay, now let me ask you the second question. Hydraulic for your elevators or magnets? You know, the new thing is magnets. So instead of using hydraulic, you can be hit by lightning and it's fine. You take a little glass of water and you drop it on magnets. I don't know what's going to happen. So, you know, the elevators come up in the new carriers. I think I'm going to change it. By the way, they have magnets. Not every tractor has hydraulic. Every, every excavator, every excavating machine of any kind has hydraulic. But somebody decided to use magnets.
- [23:29]
G
We are back with General Hertling, Sam and Paul. All right, Paul. That went on for about another two minutes. He's cast doubt on magnets and water before. Suggested China is behind their use. But it's. If you are a member of the armed services and you are standing behind him listening to that, what is going through your mind?
- [23:51]
F
How long until we get to lunch? You know, this is literally a captive audience. And I think today's a really interesting day in America. It's kind of a giant split screen. Last night, millions of us stayed up till three in the morning, east coast to watch the World Series and to see a transformative leader in Shohei Ohtani who's honorable, who's respectful, who, who honors his opposition in the game. And on the other side of the screen, you saw this. A dishonorable, disrespectful leader who is unhinged, who is undisciplined, and doesn't seem to have a connection to the people he's talking to in any given moment. And if he does, it's a nefarious one. So I think it's really important that we recognize that the whole world can see this. Our allies are concerned, our enemies are celebrating. But I always remind folks, our kids are watching. I mean, this is the commander in chief. This is an unstable, disrespectful person who, most importantly, doesn't care about the rules. He continues to be a steamroller that barrows through anything and any norm without any concern for the rules. And I'm going to continue to press the question for folks within his own party and especially the opposition. What are you going to do to stop him? I think that's the most important question for any elected leader in America right now.
- [25:03]
G
I think that is among the questions. General Hertling, as you know, Trump says he got not only an MRI during his. His physical, but another cognitive test as well, a test that he loves to brag about.
- [25:19]
E
The next day they'll say he's crazy. The next day they'll say, oh, he's incompetent. The next day they'll say, this is one of the dumbest human beings ever. And that wasn't working. But I didn't like that one as much. I mean, that was bad. So I asked Doc Ronnie, I love Doc Ronnie. But I said, what do you think about a cognitive test, Ronnie? And he said, sir, there is a test. It's called The X test. The first couple of questions are easy. A tiger, an elephant, a giraffe, a giraffe, a tiger. This. A whale. Which one is the whale? A chair, a hat, a badge, a necklace. Then you get to the end questions. And very few people could answer those questions. Person, woman, man, camera, tv. They say, that's amazing. How did you do that? I aced it twice. I aced it and I aced it. I aced both of them, I'm very proud to say. Meaning I got it. All right.
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C
Aced it.
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E
Aced it means I got every single question right. I aced it every question right. I've taken the cognitive test, I think, four times, and I'm done. I've got nothing wrong. That's what the American people want.
- [26:30]
G
So, general hurling, I waited. Take all that and juxtapose it with the military action that we are seeing at the hands of this president and speak, just if you will, about the position that puts leaders of our armed services in.
- [26:47]
D
Yeah, I'm glad you got back to the leadership role, Alicia. You know, first, I'll talk the healthcare piece of this because since I retired from the military about 10 years ago, I've been working in healthcare organizations. And there's a thing that most doctors say when they have patients that don't quite understand what's going on, when they call them Dr. Webb, M. D. Where they're getting their advice. Well, what we just heard in that long clip you just played is someone that hasn't even gone on to Dr. WebMD, it's just making stuff up. But to go, what Paul said a minute ago about leadership, what military leaders do is they always reinforce to their troops that they've got the best training, the best equipment, the best teammates, the best training. All of those things are constantly reinforced to give a pride in service and confidence in what you do. So when I see our commander in chief standing in front of a bunch of sailors, some of them who are probably elevator mechanics on that aircraft carrier or some of them who are catapult launchers and understand the true difference between electromagnetic and hydraulic, they probably are thinking this guy really doesn't know what he's talking about. So what I would suggest to the President, if he would listen, is talk about what you know and leave these kind of things that are conjecture on your part that you know very little about, especially when you're talking to an audience that, that actually knows the things who live on that ship and who carry things around with them. And that's the kind of confidence you should be giving soldiers instead of questioning whether or not the right kind of elevators are on an aircraft carrier because it puts doubt in some sailors minds and it's not the right thing to do. It gets back to leadership. How do you not have a bad day when you're a leader? And how do you get other people, how do you influence other people to buy in what you're trying to do as opposed to insulting and being condescending and just saying negative things about every part of your government and your service?
- [29:07]
G
Sam Stein, the self restraint it takes to listen to someone who knows less about mechanics and science that you do and not just blurt out wrong, wrong, it's all wrong is a self restraint I do not possess. I want though, Sam Stein for you. I'm going to start playing a clip. It lasts about a minute. Trump at an overnight ceremony in Japan, kind of meandering around the room next to that country's prime minister. Now this could be a lot of things, could be jet lag. You can write it off as awkward stagecraft, but I wonder as you watch it, sort of the composite view it creates of this president in this iteration of his presidency.
- [29:54]
H
Well, I've watched this a couple times now and like you, I don't know what to exactly make of it. Certainly could be jet lag. I mean, certainly could be just he's in a foreign country in a weird different place and he doesn't really know where to go. I think I come back ultimately to the idea of what kind of standards are we going to abide by here because I think we all recognize that if this were Joe Biden in that situation and he were meandering around a room being awkwardly, you know, guided by another world leader, it would have been a lot of fodder for a lot of Trump supporters. It would have probably led Fox News for a while. It would have fed a perception that he is old and not up for the task. And you could probably say the same about, you know, going on about magnets and talking about windmills and making, you know, repeated claims about how he knows, you know, grass better than anyone else in history. And, you know, even the stuff about cognitive tests and how he has to insist time and time again as if people have, you know, doubted him, that he has aced these and then explaining what ace actually means, as if we don't know what it means to ace a test. So like, you know, all this stuff, it obviously if it were another person in that position, I think it's fair to say that people would be raising questions that don't often get raised for Donald Trump. And part of the reason they don't often get raised in this context is that because it comes so regularly and so frequently and we're dealing with these things so rapidly that it kind of overwhelms us, to be honest. And so I put that video that you played in that bucket of things that raise questions. But ultimately it's hard to contextualize.
- [31:33]
G
I think your larger point about standards is exactly right. General herdling, 30 seconds and then I gotta go.
- [31:38]
D
Yeah, 30 seconds. The guy, the two people I feel the most sorry for on the clip you just showed was the Prime Minister of Japan and that military aide, that Marine that was walking behind the president, because the military aide's job is to tell them what to do in a ceremony and make sure they do it. But when you're in a foreign country, you then have to leave it up to the host to make sure things go right. So that military aide is thinking to himself, oh, my gosh, I told this guy exactly what to do, and he's just going all over the place.
- [32:09]
G
And this is why you always read the briefing book. Lieutenant General Mark Hartling, Paul Rykoff, Sam Stein, thank you all so much for being with us. When we return, former federal judge Michael Ludic is sounding the alarm at Donald Trump's lawlessness, this time over what he thinks Trump is planning to do when his term in office is over. Judge Ludick joins us after a short break. Hi, I'm Jenny Slate and believe it or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast.
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F
I'm Gabe Liedman.
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H
I'm Max Silvestri and we've been friends for 20 years and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives.
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It's called I need you guys.
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H
Should I give my baby fresh vegetables?
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Can I drink the water at the hospital?
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My landlord plays the trombone and I can't ask him to stop.
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G
You should make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss a episode.
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B
Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food. Unlike other brands, Ollie offers five flavors that are as nutritious as they are delicious, all made in US kitchens without harmful fillers or preservatives. Head to ollie.com tell them all about your dog and use code happypup to get 60% off your welcome kit. With a bonus, you'll get a storage container for a mess free experience. And it comes with a 30 day money back guarantee if your dog doesn't lick the bowl, clean.
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I
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- [34:09]
G
Donald Trump's destruction of an entire wing of the White House to make room for his gilded ballroom shows not just his disregard for the history of the building and the office he holds, but according to the Daily Show's Jon Stewart, it reveals something far more sinister.
- [34:24]
D
He's the kind of guy who's like, I respect Americans too much to play games. If I'm gonna run again, I'm gonna rip off the Constitution's head and down its neck. And truth is, indications are very clear he's gonna do it. Cause you don't move into a house, knock down a wing, and build a 90,000 square foot ballroom for the next guy. Trump's not a house flipper. He's not Ellen. He's in it for the long haul.
- [34:56]
G
That warning that Trump will not leave office echoed loudly in the Atlantic's cover story today by conservative Judge Michael Ludig. Judge Ludig writes, quote, with his every word and deed, Trump has given Americans reason to believe that he will seek a third term in defiance of the Constitution. It seems abundantly clear that he will hold on to the office at any costs, including America's ruin. He adds that if there were ever a president who refused to relinquish power, quote, the founders believed it would mark the demise of the nation that they had conceived, bringing to a calamitous end the greatest experiment in self government ever attempted by man. Joining me now, former federal Judge Michael Ludig. Judge Ludig, it is good to see you. How far down the road do you think Trump is in terms of laying the groundwork for not leaving office?
- [35:45]
C
Thank you for having me on this afternoon, Alicia. I very much appreciate it. I wrote this article because this is the question that's on the minds of many, if not most Americans a mere 10 months into Donald Trump's second term as president. And, and the reason that that question is on their minds is because Donald Trump has put the question in the minds of the American people. Within two months of having assumed office for the second time, he and his allies and supporters began talking about the possibility that he would run for and serve a third term as President of the United States, notwithstanding the Constitution of the United States 22nd Amendment. That amendment bars any person from being elected more than twice to the office of the President as a matter of constitutional law. Because the President has now been elected twice to the presidency, he cannot be elected again to the presidency. Notwithstanding that, from March until just yesterday, the President and his allies and supporters, such as Steve Bannon, have said the President is considering running for election to the office of president for a third term. And then, of course, yesterday, Steve Bannon said that, that he believes that Donald Trump will be the next President of the United States, succeeding himself unconstitutionally.
- [37:48]
G
I have heard that Bannon sound quite a bit. I want to play you some other sound. This is from one of Trump's staunchest allies in the Senate, Tommy Tuberville. He was asked about a potential third term just today. Here's what he had to say. Senator, is it constitutional for President Trump to run for a third term? He's teasing that.
- [38:10]
C
You know, if you, if you read the Constitution, it says it's not. But if he says he has some, some different circumstances that might be able to go around the Constitution, but that's up to him. We got a long way to go before that happens. Well, I think that there's going to be, have to be an evaluation from President Trump's viewpoint to the Constitution. There will be a lot of legal aspects to it. Will it happen is very unlikely. But don't ever close the book on President Trump.
- [38:43]
G
Kudos to our own Ali Vitali for pressing the Senator on this question. Judge Ludic, what do you make of the fact that it is difficult for Republicans to say unequivocally that what the President is suggesting is unconstitutional?
- [38:58]
C
Well, it's, it's nothing more than of the same cloth with what the Republicans have been saying and doing since January 6, 2021. I, I've asked myself whether they're doing this out of fear of Donald Trump or whether they're doing it because they favor Donald Trump. And at this point, five years on from January 6th, Alicia, I have to conclude, and I think all Americans ought to conclude, that the Republican elected officials, you know, they, they believe in everything that Donald Trump is, is doing, including his apparent intention to think quite seriously about running for an unconstitutional third term. The kind of talk that we just heard from, from that elected official, Mr. Turbeville, is the kind of irresponsible talk that we've gotten from the Republican politicians for five years now.
- [40:12]
G
Judge Ludick, I have more questions about this, specifically what we can all do given this potential reality. And when we return, we're going to add to that talk about. About the prosecution of former FBI Director Jim Comey and why over 100 former Justice Department officials, including Judge Ludig, think that case should be thrown out. We are back with Judge Michael Ludig to this conversation. Judge Ludick, about the president floating the possibility of a third term. I think the fundamental question for our audience is what. What do we all do about it? What is the action each and every one of us is supposed to be taking in light of the fact that the President of the United States is openly flouting the Constitution?
- [41:00]
C
Well, Alicia, in the 10 months that he's been president, this time he has secured, that is, he has seized essentially unabsolute and unchecked power in the United States of America. That is unchecked by the two coordinate branches of government, the Congress of the United States and the Supreme Court of the United States, but also unchecked by the several states, meaning the 50 states and the free press in America. Though the Constitution provides for a. A system of checks and balances on the powers of the three coordinate branches, in 10 months, Donald Trump has seized, mostly unconstitutional or in violation of the laws of the United States, all of the power of the entire federal government, including that of the Congress and the Supreme Court, and, of course, the several states and the free press. So that's why I say in this article that. That he has seized unconstitutional power unchecked in any way whatsoever. He sought that power, and at this point, he possesses that power. And with that power amassed for the first time in American history, unconstitutionally, there is nothing and no one who can stop Donald Trump from running for election to an unconstitutional third term and being the next President of the United States, notwithstanding the votes of the American people.
- [43:18]
G
I would contend that you, Judge Ludic, are doing something. You are using your voice both on programs like this and also in signing your name to the amicus brief urging a federal judge in Virginia to dismiss the charges against former FBI Director Jim Comey, you and your colleagues. Based on all publicly available evidence, the indictment of this defendant appears to have been the product not of the neutral judgment of an impartial prosecutor, rather an expression of retributive animus by the president, acting through an interim United States attorney whom he personally selected to bring charges against his perceived political enemies. What do you think the stakes for the rule of law are with this case?
- [43:58]
C
Well, Alicia, this president is his presidency will forever be known in history as the presidency of revenge and retribution. And that's the way he would want it. He campaigned for this, this term of the presidency, as we all know, on revenge and retribution for his political enemies, political opponents. If he were elected president again, he was elected president. And from the first day in office in January, you know, he has launched his promised campaign of revenge and retribution against all of his political enemies. At this point, though, it's pretty clear to everyone that, that he considers his political enemies, essentially everyone who has ever disagreed with him on, on anything policy or, or otherwise. And in fact, when he addressed the, the generals, the, the other day, he explicitly spoke of the enemy within, the enemy of America within America. And by that he was referring to his political opponents and enemies and most notably the Democratic Party and all Democrats in America.
- [45:47]
G
Judge Michael Ludig, thank you for writing this piece. Thank you for coming on the show to discuss it and for laying the stakes. So bear up next, massive layoffs at a company. Virtually everyone uses that story. After a quick break, Amazon has announced a massive new wave of layoffs impacting about 14,000 people, the largest in that company's history. And according to Reuters, it is part of a plan to cut as many as double that, 30,000 people, all in the name of adopting more AI. From the email they sent the company wide quote, this generation of AI is the most transformative technology technology we've seen since the Internet, and it's enabling companies to innovate much faster than before. The Amazon news coming on the same day we learned that shipping giant UPS cut 48,000 jobs to its workforce since last year. Stay on that story. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Earlier in the program, we gave you a taste of Governor J.B. pritzker's description of the fear and trauma the people of Chicago are feeling in the midst of ICE crackdowns. You can hear much more from Nicole's conversation with Governor Pritzker on the Best People podcast. Scan the QR code on your screen to watch the whole thing on YouTube or download wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for spending part of this Tuesday with us. We are grateful.
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A
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