← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Not needed nor welcome”
00:44:25
Stephanie Ruhle — in for Nicolle Wallace — on Labor Day anti-Trump protests, new warnings from former CDC directors, and Trump's illegal tariffs.
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- [00:01]
Kavita Patel
Department of Rejected Dreams.
- [00:03]
Stephanie Rule
If you had a dream rejected Ikea.
- [00:04]
Kavita Patel
Can make it possible.
- [00:05]
Gene Sperling
So I always dreamed of having a man cave, but the wife doesn't like it.
- [00:09]
Major General William Enyart
What if I called it a woman cave?
- [00:12]
Kavita Patel
Okay, so let's not do that. But add some relaxing lighting and a.
- [00:15]
Stephanie Rule
Comfy Ikea hofberg ottoman.
- [00:17]
Kavita Patel
And now it's a cozy retreat.
- [00:18]
Major General William Enyart
Nice. A cozy retreat, man.
- [00:20]
Gene Sperling
Cozy retreat, sir.
- [00:22]
Claire Jones
Okay.
- [00:24]
Kavita Patel
Find your big dreams, small dreams and cozy retreat dreams in store or online@IKEA.
- [00:28]
Stephanie Rule
Us dream the possibilities.
- [00:30]
Major General William Enyart
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- [01:03]
Stephanie Rule
Hi there, everybody. Happy Labor Day to you all. I am Stephanie Rule in for my friend Nicole Wallace. And this afternoon, Americans from coast to coast are bracing for impact ahead of what could soon be an expanded federal takeover of our largest cities. In Chicago this afternoon, protesters are spending their holiday making it crystal clear to Donald John Trump that National Guard troops are not needed nor welcome in their efforts to cut down on crime. Just this weekend, the city's mayor signed an executive order intended to curb the power of federal law enforcement and the National Guard should Trump follow through on his plans to flood the streets with armed personnel. Here's that city's mayor, Brandon Johnson.
- [01:48]
Major General William Enyart
We're stopping guns being trafficked in from states that voted for him. And so now we do all of this hard work. This group assignment in the city of Chicago, and he wants to come at the end of the year before the assignment is due to try to put his name on the paper. He is reckless and out of control. He is the biggest threat to our democracy that we've experienced in the history of our country.
- [02:15]
Stephanie Rule
Following those comments, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem confirmed that the Trump administration plans on expanding immigration and cut Customs Enforcement operations in major American cities, including Chicago. As elected Democrats in that city and beyond prepare, they're hammering down on a major contradiction.
- [02:37]
Major General William Enyart
Just consider Speaker Johnson's state and district. Just look at the murder rate that's nearly four times higher than Californians. If the president is sincere about the issue of crime and violence, there's no question in my mind that he'll likely be sending the troops into Louisiana and Mississippi. Notice he never talks about where the most violent crime is occurring, which is in red states. Illinois is not even in the bottom half of states in terms of violent crime. But do you hear him talking about Florida, where he is now from? No, you don't hear him talking about that. Or Texas. Their violent crime rates are much worse in other place. And we're very proud of the work that we've done.
- [03:27]
Stephanie Rule
That red state, blue state tension persists even in the ongoing federal takeover of Washington, D.C. of the 2,200 National Guard troops that are patrolling the streets there today, nearly 60% are from six states. Can you guess which states? Louisiana, Mississippi, Ohio, South Carolina, Tennessee, West Virginia. And on that very topic, the New York Times reports that the image of red state governors mustering uniform troops for duty in blue state cities has left many Americans with a foreboding sense of a nation dangerously divided, perhaps even drifting toward an open conflict. Mr. Trump denied statistical reality last week when he was asked whether he might send federal forces into high crime cities in Republican led states. Sure, he said, but there aren't that many. Here's the thing, there are that many. Kansas City, St. Louis, Springfield, Birmingham, Cleveland, Dayton, Toledo, Tulsa, Memphis, Nashville, Houston, Little Rock, Salt Lake City and Shreveport, Louisiana all have crime rates that are comparable to Washington's. That is according to FBI statistics. And that is where we start today with New York Times White House correspondent Pulitzer Prize winner Luke Broadwell, plus former general for the Illinois National Guard and former Illinois Democratic congressman, retired Major General William Enyart. He joins us and managing editor of the Bulwark. And MSNBC contributor Sam Stein is here as well. Luke, let us start with you. How long until this expanded takeover? We've heard so much about it and people are bracing themselves.
- [05:12]
Luke Broadwell
Well, we know the White House is actively planning on how they can do this legally. That's why the president has signed executive orders. It's a very different legal situation to send in the Guard into Chicago than it is into D.C. obviously, D.C. is not a state.
- [05:33]
Major General William Enyart
Right.
- [05:33]
Luke Broadwell
It's a federal territory so they can or a federal district, so he has certain powers he can do there that aren't in Chicago. But the important thing here is that Donald Trump is really viewing the issue of crime through a political lens and trying to pick fights with blue state governors or blue state mayors that he can then use in hopes of making this the issue to run on in the midterms. So, you know, that was great reporting from one of my colleagues about all the cities with comparable crime rates. It really underscores the point here that Donald Trump's not going around the country looking for cities with the highest crime. He's looking for blue cities with higher crime.
- [06:19]
Stephanie Rule
What are Democrats doing in these blue cities to shield their towns, Luke? Right.
- [06:25]
Luke Broadwell
Well, you're seeing, you know, an order from the mayor in Chicago right now that the police are not to comply with Donald Trump's orders. You are seeing pushback from the politicians in these jurisdictions. You know, typically, when you send in the National Guard, a couple of things are required. One, you need the governor to sign off on it. And then two, you need an actual emergency. Right. Like there are many times in American history where presidents have sent in the Guard, but it's usually in response to an actual emergency. The Rodney King riots, for instance, a hurricane, a natural disaster, crime rates being high in certain jurisdictions over a period of time, but actually declining. It's hard to see court saying that that is a legitimate emergency for which the president needs to federalize a National Guard in a certain state and take the authority away from the governor and give it to himself. So, you know, this is going to be tested in the courts when and if Donald Trump does go into Chicago, but you can almost guarantee there will be a very intense court fight over it.
- [07:39]
Stephanie Rule
Major General, I got two for you. Let's start with who's paying for all this, because this ain't cheap. And last I checked, this president and his doge efforts were all about cutting, cutting, cutting federal spending.
- [07:52]
Major General William Enyart
Well, I can tell you who's paying for this. You and me, the American taxpayer. These are dollars that are coming out of DoD's budget. And every dollar that's spent on sending a National guardsman to Washington, D.C. or Chicago or anywhere else for that matter is a dollar that can't be used to pay for Guardsmen to be mobilized to take an overseas deployment or to provide recovery efforts for hurricanes or to fight floods in the Midwest. So you and I are paying for it. But, you know, there's a cost here that we haven't talked about, and that cost is the cost to the individual guardsman. So when a guardsman gets mobilized, a PFC that's private first class gets paid about 91 bucks a day. That's about $11 an hour. Now, there aren't many guardsmen in their civilian lives who only make $11 an hour. You know, a kid in D.C. flipping burgers is going to make $15 an hour. So there's a financial sacrifice to that guardsman. There's the sacrifice on the part of the employer who is losing that guardsman and has to replace the guardsman, either by paying overtime to somebody else or hiring somebody new. And there's a loss to the family. That family of that guardsman is paying a cost because that guardsman is not there to help them. So there are a lot of costs here that aren't being calculated.
- [09:08]
Stephanie Rule
Wow, that is extraordinary. And I think most of us haven't even thought about that. General, talk to us about this, though, because back in June, Reuters was reporting that some U.S. military leaders were privately questioning the National Guard's training, even for domestic employment, and they were warning about the risks of adding law enforcement. Have those fears been realized?
- [09:33]
Major General William Enyart
Well, I think we've been very, very lucky so far, but there are absolutely some genuine fears there. And, you know, I find it interesting that Donald Trump's defense department fired all three of the top lawyers in the army, the Navy, and the Air Force, because those top lawyers would have been advising them, tread very carefully here. The only way that you can send guardsmen into these cities without the consent of the governor and the mayor is under what's called Title 10. Title 10 is exactly the same as being an active duty military person. When you do that, a law called posse comitatus applies. That law says you as a military member cannot perform civilian law enforcement duties. Absent some very exigent circumstances, you can't do it. And you know what? That law is a criminal statute. So a guardsman who is mobilized under Title 10 order, sent to Chicago, if he does something that is civilian law enforcement that he shouldn't have done, and it violates somebody's constitutional rights, he is not only liable civilly, he's liable criminally and could be in prison for up to two years for violating someone's civil rights. So, you know, when Donald Trump says shoot him in the legs, that's probably an unlawful order, I would think, and it's certainly probably an unconstitutional order. And that soldier who would unfortunately follow that order would be liable criminally and civilly.
- [11:06]
Stephanie Rule
Holy smoke. Sam, I have to get to you. But then, General, just tell us, what in the world is the off ramp here?
- [11:15]
Major General William Enyart
What's the off ramp? Well, the off ramp is that the administration send in all the FBI agents and all the DEA agents and all the ICE agents that they want to, because those are federal employees. You don't run into the question of posse comitatus. You don't run into the problem of military folks enforcing civilian law enforcement. And, you know, the Guard is a military Instrument. It is a reserve military force. It is not a part time civilian law enforcement force. So that's his only offering.
- [11:48]
Stephanie Rule
My goodness. All right, Sam. Mike Johnson, it doesn't come as a surprise, did respond to being called out by California Governor Gavin Newsom. And I want to share that.
- [11:58]
Gene Sperling
How about it again, Gavin Newsom will do anything for attention. He can name, drop me all he wants. He needs to go and govern his state and not be engaging in all of this. Look, we have crime in cities all across America and we're against that everywhere. And we need to bring policies to bear.
- [12:14]
Major General William Enyart
My hometown of Shreveport has done a.
- [12:15]
Gene Sperling
Great job of reducing crime gradually, but we've got to address it everywhere that it rears its ugly head. And I think every major city in the country, the residents of those cities are open to that and anxious to have it. And we're the policy, we're the party that's going to bring that forward.
- [12:33]
Stephanie Rule
Sam, what do you think?
- [12:36]
Sam Stein
Well, it's interesting because there is obviously a contradiction there, right? There are, as you noted, many cities in red states, and there are cities run by Republicans, too, that have crime problems that are comparable statistically with Chicago, D.C. baltimore, et cetera. And I have a suspicion that Mike Johnson is not going to be the only one who's asked about this. And Congress is coming back this week. There's going to be tons of Hill reporters who are going to be asking about whether they will vote to extend this emergency that Trump has declared in Washington, D.C. which Congress should be on the hook for. And in the process of being asked about that, I imagine they're going to be asked about crimes in their home states and in their cities in those states. I know James Lankford of Oklahoma was asked about it yesterday, and their answers are, you know, difficult as Mike Johnson's was there. Right. Because in theory, if they're supportive of sending in federal law enforcement, the National Guard, et cetera, to Washington, D.C. or Chicago, they should be doing the same for their own jurisdictions. Now, I will say this. It's all complicated, or a little bit complicated, I should say, by the fact that here in D.C. the mayor, Miro Bazzar has been somewhat complimentary, in fact, of the federal upping and resources. She says it's been accompanied by a reduction in carjackings and crimes. Frankly, that should be expected. Right? You send in 2,500 or so federal officials and National Guards troops, you should get a reduction in crime. What she's complained about is that they're wearing masks and that they are being deployed in a terribly cost ineffective manner. And on top of that, this isn't really necessarily a anti crime initiative so much as an anti immigrant initiative. You see a lot of ICE agents roaming D.C. in parts with big Hispanic populations. But yeah, I think Mike Johnson's not going to be the only Republican who's being asked about this. I suspect this is going to happen across the board for Republicans when they get back here.
- [14:23]
Stephanie Rule
All right, Sam, then let's make you the lawmaker decoder of the day. And I want to share that Kristi Noem said yesterday, watch this. There's a lot of cities that are dealing with crime and violence right now. And so we haven't taken anything off the table. We've been making sure that we have the resources and the equipment to go in. I won't speak to the specifics of.
- [14:45]
Kavita Patel
The operations that are planned in other.
- [14:47]
Stephanie Rule
Cities, but I do know that LA wouldn't be standing today if President Trump hadn't taken action. Then that city would have burned down. If left to the devices of the mayor and the governor of that state.
- [14:59]
Sam Stein
I can't.
- [14:59]
Stephanie Rule
L A wouldn't be standing today. And she's not talking about the fires that took place last year. No, she's not.
- [15:10]
Sam Stein
It's so over the top ridiculous to say something like that that it's hard to actually take seriously. I'm not going to really take it seriously. Just for people to understand. The riots, the protests that are happening in which were centered around ICE operations at Home Depots, those are confined to like a four or five block radius. Louisiana has 500 square miles. Louisiana would have been fine. Louisiana is fine. But it does get to something that's always been funny to me. I guess funny is the wrong word. The perceptions that Republicans, especially people in the middle of the country, have about urban decay sometimes are wildly inaccurate. Trump and Noam and others feed into it. But they assume that if you step foot in Washington D.C. you're going to get carjacked. And if you step foot in New York City, you're going to get mugged. The reality is these cities had trouble.
- [16:05]
Gene Sperling
They did.
- [16:06]
Sam Stein
A lot of it was tied to the pandemic. A lot of it was tied to different law, sorry, law enforcement reforms that were made in the cities, jurisdictions. But those problems are on the downslope. Things are getting better. If you look at places like Baltimore, statistically, it is having an unbelievable amount of progress in terms of reducing its crimes. And yet I imagine that if you did a poll of Republicans and Trump supporters, they would say Baltimore is a hellhole where you couldn't get a sandwich. And so it doesn't surprise me that Kristi Noemi says stuff like that, but it doesn't make it less ridiculous.
- [16:41]
Stephanie Rule
My goodness. General, I want to share something else that Governor Pritzker said yesterday in your hometown.
- [16:49]
Major General William Enyart
He has other aims other than fighting crime. That's the first thing they should understand. The second is it's an attack on the American people by the President of the United States. Now, he may disagree with a state that didn't vote for him, but should he be sending troops in? No.
- [17:05]
Gene Sperling
You said he has other aims.
- [17:06]
Sam Stein
What are the other aims?
- [17:07]
Major General William Enyart
The other aims are that he'd like to stop the elections in 2026 or frankly, take control of those elections. He'll just claim that there's some problem with an election, and then he's got troops on the ground that can take control if in fact he's allowed to do this.
- [17:26]
Stephanie Rule
You agree with that? Do you think that could be the game plan here?
- [17:31]
Major General William Enyart
Well, Stephanie, first of all, Chicago's my Hometown. I live 300 miles away from Chicago in southwestern Illinois, across the room from that crime ridden city of St. Louis. But do I agree with that? That is certainly a plausible explanation. I have a little bit different explanation, and mine is that let's give credit to Donald Trump where credit is due. He is a mastermind at the media. He is a mastermind at television. He is a mastermind at drama. Now, why would he need some drama? He needs drama because the labor reports are cratering. Employment's going down. His tariffs are adversely impacting American citizens. Hamburger prices are up a buck and a half a pound. Food prices have gone up every month but one since he has taken office. Although he ran on I'm going to lower food prices on the first day. He is desperate to avoid talking about his many failures. So what does he need? He needs to change the narrative. What better drama than to see those Humvees rolling down city streets parked in front of the Washington Monument? That's what he is doing. Now, may he also be setting up a plan for the elections? I don't know. I think Governor Pritzker is certainly looking at it from a long term point of view, and I would not want to disagree with it. I'm not disagreeing with the governor, but I think there is more to it than just that. I think he's also trying desperately to change the narrative and doing so very effectively because what are we talking about? We're talking about the guard in Chicago. We're not talking about the price of coffee, which has gone from what, about less than 6 bucks a pound to about $7 a pound. Come on now. Oh, and that's not to mention, by the way, the price of soybeans here for farmers in Illinois, price of soybeans here in Illinois in 2022, when Joe Biden was in office, farmers were getting over$16 a bushel. And you adjust that for inflation, it's over $18 a bushel in 2022. Today, it's just over $10 a bushel. That's about a 50% cut for income to farmers who grow soybeans.
- [19:51]
Stephanie Rule
All right, Major General apologies, Chicago is not your hometown. But I will say that I visited Chicago several months ago in your home state. And I had the most fantastic time. That Science and Industry Museum top 10. Great to see you. Thank you for joining us. Luke, Sam, great to have you here both. And starting us off this afternoon. When we return, the danger that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Poses not only to each and every American, but the very real threat he is to the entire global health system. The calls growing today for RFK to be fired. That story is next. Plus, a huge setback for Donald Trump's agenda. His signature tariffs ruled unlawful by a federal appeals court. What that means for you and me. And later in the program, it was the summer of buyers remorse among Republicans voters making their voices heard loud and clear in town halls from Maine to Alabama to Arizona. How Congress is readying its big return this week. All of those stories and more when DEADLINE White House continues Labor Day edition right after the break.
- [21:01]
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- [22:02]
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Stephanie Rule
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- [22:34]
Sam Stein
I mean, from my vantage point as a doctor who's taken the Hippocratic Oath, I only see harm coming. The firewall between science and ideology has completely broken down and not having a scientific leader at CDC meant that we wouldn't be able to have the necessary diplomacy and connection with HHS to be able to really execute on good public health. Both of those things mean that I can't do my job and that my scientists can't do their job. When that happens, that's the beginning of harm.
- [23:07]
Stephanie Rule
Another very serious warning that this is still just the beginning of harm. The beginning of the Trump administration's assault on our public health. That was one of the top CDC officials who resigned last week after the agency's director was fired for refusing to rubber stamp the unscientific directives of Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Now, nine of her predecessors who led the CDC under every president from Jimmy Carter to Donald Trump, warn in the New York Times that Kennedy's anti vaccine, anti science leadership is endangering every American's health. Calling the last six months, quote, unlike anything our country has ever experienced, they also write the following quote, these are not typical requests from a health secretary to a CDC director. Not even close to none of us would have agreed to the secretary's demands. Quote, during our respective CDC tenures, we did not always agree with our leaders, but they never gave us a reason to doubt that they would rely on data driven insights for our protection or that they would support public health workers. Joining our conversation, former Obama White House Policy Director and MSNBC medical director Dr. Kavita Patel. Kavita, I am so glad you're here. Your information is always important. Now I feel like it is life or death crucial. What is your reaction to this new warning from nine former CDC heads?
- [24:35]
Kavita Patel
Yeah, Stephanie, it's not a trivial issue to try to get nine CDC heads across the aisles and different administrations to come together on one unifying message. And I have to say this, I've never seen anything like this. We've seen a lot of OP EDS around different aspects of the Trump administration, but nothing so dire and nothing that's actually saying literally, we're going to have to go at it on our own. That's literally how the OP ed ends, that we must take care of each other and that we have to continue to stand up for science as individuals, as groups, as society. But no longer can we depend on the federal government in health and human services. I don't know. That is a global cry. I don't know what else could be.
- [25:16]
Stephanie Rule
What are your biggest concerns now that we're hearing from people who have voluntarily left the CDC and now that some of them have shared what they were being asked to do, including changing scientific findings?
- [25:30]
Kavita Patel
Yeah. So first layer, I'm going to say I know a lot of the people who left personally. I've worked with them during monkeypox, zenpox, as we call it now, Covid, you name it, different respiratory virus, seasons. You could call upon them to ask about what's happening at the federal level, globally, what should we do as a clinician, Stephanie? It came down to they got on the phone at night and would guide us through COVID protocols that we were just trying to put together and stitch from A to B to C. And then on top of that, these were the leaders that protected their staff. So their staff just, they just want to come in, do their work and leave. There's actually kind of a truth to the story that they don't care about the politics or whose pictures are in the buildings when they walk in because they just want to get their work done. They always have a joke that we'll be here when the lights go on in one administration and they go out because they don't let that affect their work now. It affects their work and they have to be in fear and the leaders who could protect them are gone. And so you fast forward, that's the short and middle term. The longer term is that you can't rely on this data. You cannot understand patterns. To see when flu season might be coming, to see when chronic diseases. Remember, it's not just Covid that they monitor, Stephanie. This is chronic diseases, gun surveillance. There's so many things the CDC and their data centers do on a day to day basis that we just take for granted. I think of it as the public health equivalent, as your electricity going out. You don't have A backup generator. And you got to figure it out with those hand cranks to get your radio and to get other equipment to work. That's where we're at in public health.
- [27:04]
Stephanie Rule
Then if this health secretary keeps targeting 60 years of vaccine progress and he does not care to listen to actual career health experts, what do you think the future is for the CDC and public health?
- [27:18]
Kavita Patel
Yeah, the future is bleak for the cdc. And what's happening is what you're seeing right now with the governors of states, including Massachusetts, California, to name probably every single governor, thinking about what they need to do to step in, which is unfortunate because then we have a quilt that doesn't necessarily have even protocols. I should not have to think about what state or what city I live in to practice medicine. Stephanie, you and I have talked about how that's already happened in women's health and reproductive services. Unfortunately, now it's going to be happening in preventive medicine, public health and primary care. So people have said to me, well, don't worry, this will get better during the, quote, next administration. I said, will it? Can you fill the void in career staff that quickly? Who's going to trust that they're going to be able to come in and have careers as scientists anymore? Why would anybody be willing to go into these jobs? I think it's going to last for a very long time.
- [28:11]
Stephanie Rule
Well, I want to get your reaction to what we heard from the president today. For the first time, we heard President Trump demanding that pharmaceutical companies justify the effectiveness of COVID vaccines. Now, this is the first time he has publicly opened the door to question the efficacy of COVID vaccines. And it's extraordinary, given that they were developed on Trump's watch. Right. Operation Warp Speed may have been the crowning achievement of the first Trump administration and truly one of the greatest developments in modern history.
- [28:47]
Gene Sperling
Yeah, I agree.
- [28:48]
Kavita Patel
I heard the same thing. And it had a complete. This is not just an about face because of, as you mentioned, all these vaccines kind of done under his guidance, his leadership. But it does make sense, Stephanie, if you think about the fact that the career scientists and the data leaders who you just had a Voice clip of Dr. Demetri on earlier. If you think about the fact that they weren't even allowed to brief the secretary, imagine what information is getting to the president. You and I know that those presidential memos, they've got to be concise, they've got to be succinct, but whoever writes them has an incredible amount of power. And that's exactly what's happening right now the president is likely getting wrong information and being told something when he probably doesn't even understand the nuances of what effectiveness is versus efficacy versus what's been seen in clinical trials. And we're all going to have to pay the price for it.
- [29:39]
Stephanie Rule
Oh, goodness. Well, we're lucky you're here to make us better and smarter every time you join us. Kavita Patel, good to see you. When we return, from day one of the second Trump administration, the president has had a singular focus on imposing tariffs across the board on nearly every country imaginable. He called himself Mr. Tariff. Well, we know they have been unpopular. We know they have been costly, and now, it turns out, illegal. The latest blow to his agenda just ahead. Oh, my goodness. Donald Trump's pet economic policy. You know what it has been? It has received yet another blow in the courts. We're talking tariffs. An APPEALS Court ruling 7 to 4 late Friday said that Trump does not have have the authority to implement his wide, sweeping tariffs using emergency powers. Now, let me just remind you, Trump had used the International Emergency Economic Powers act to impose most of those tariffs. The act, if you recall, is from the 1970s, and it gives the president the power to respond to unusual and extraordinary threats at times of national emergencies. The court gave Trump until October 14th to appeal the ruling up to the Supreme Court. No surprise, the president reacted to the news on social media writing the following. If these tariffs ever went away, it would be a total disaster for the country. If allowed to stand, this decision would literally, he said, it would literally destroy the United States of America. Joining our conversation is former director of the National Economic Council for Presidents Obama and Clinton. Gene Sperling joins us and US Economics editor for the Financial Times, Claire Jones is here. Gene, let's start. Grammar mistakes aside, literally, figuratively, emotionally, socially, spiritually, is there any scenario where removing these tariffs would destroy the United States of America?
- [31:49]
Gene Sperling
I would make you a bet that if you could poll many Republican senators, they would say that the Supreme Court striking down his tariff authority under ipa, as we like to call it, would be the biggest favor that the Supreme Court could do to Donald Trump. He has really provided a textbook example of why our founders gave the power to tax and impose tariffs on Congress. They were worried about an erratic king going on and just raising taxes, tariffs willy nilly. When you look at what is happening here, you see the president using tariffs as whim or just for any issue. You know, it was declared that he was the emergency was our trade deficit. But he imposes a 50% tariff on Brazil we have a surplus with as we discussed on a previous show. He just very successfully, if that was his goal, helped push India into the more into alignment with China and Russia by a 50% tariff that had nothing to do with the trade deficits. And he is imposing tariffs across the board on things like banana and coffee, which we could not even grow here. On everyday products, beef, tennis shoes, clothing. Inflation is, that was supposed to come down is, is rising. So not only would it not harm our country, it would be the biggest favor that could be done not only to our economic future right now, but actually to the economic self interest of President Trump who clearly cannot control and use these tariffs in a disciplined way that does not cause havoc and will not raise prices on everyday products as we see being predicted by Best Buy, Walmart, Target, you name it. So yes, I would disagree. I'd say if they struck it down, it would be quite a favor to this president.
- [34:08]
Stephanie Rule
Claire, I would agree with Gene that if you polled those Republican lawmakers, but I'd say if you privately polled them, because publicly they haven't, I would even say if you privately polled Scott Besant, he probably heard that ruling and said yes, please, please, let's hope that stands. What is your take on this and the President's take that it would literally destroy the United States of America?
- [34:30]
Claire Jones
Well, I think it's a bold statement and one that just can't be justified by the facts for a lot of the reasons that Jean mentions. I mean, what we've seen so far is tariffs haven't quite yet created the economic chaos that many thought they really haven't helped. And this word is bandied around all of the time. But it's uncertainty. And we know uncertainty damages the economic climate a lot. And you know, there's a tendency to think it sounds like a broken record. Uncertainty, uncertainty, uncertainty. But you know, this is real businesses across the US Struggling to know what decisions to make. And that's down to two factors. It's not only the scale of tariffs, which is, you know, pretty impressive. We're looking at the biggest tariffs that you've had in the US for around a century. But it's the incoherence of the policy in the sense that we don't know, like Gene says, if he's applying them for economic reasons because of big deficits or if it's just about foreign policy issues. And that really leaves businesses across the US really struggling to know what sort of decisions to make. And that just can't be good for the economy. And I certainly don't get the sense that if this decision does go to the Supreme Court and it's a big if, that they side with what this appeals court has said, that it is going to be the end of the United States.
- [35:52]
Stephanie Rule
Jean, how does this ruling play into sort of the broader impact of tariffs? Tariffs?
- [35:59]
Gene Sperling
Well, that's a very good question. I think this would this ruling, if the Supreme Court were to uphold it would, as I said, do the president a favor by getting rid of a bit of the most inexplicable tariffs. I really can't imagine when people start seeing their Air Jordans or their Nike shoes up 30, $40 or Christmas toys going up that they're going to say ask why this is important to our national security. But I would not. People should be excited that the Supreme Court could save Donald Trump from himself for two reasons. One, I think there is a decent chance that as wrong as it would be, the Supreme Court will fear having the disruptive effect on foreign policy and that the president's berating of them could lead them to worry about upending 67 foreign policy agreement so they could try to strain to carve out an exception for the president here. But what we also know, Stephanie, is they've always had a plan B for this ruling. So they are imposing and not to overwhelm people listening, but it's called section 232 and it is it allows you to ask for an investigation from the secretary of Commerce and then put tariffs on goods that are traded into the US they are now trying to expand this beyond steel and aluminum, beyond cars, to copper, to pharmaceuticals, to critical minerals, to lumber and furniture. I could go on and on, but the goal is that they think they're on a stronger legal ground. And so while I think it would take away some of the craziness like, like the tariffs on coffee and bananas, which I'm sure Trump will have to back down on anyways. It would allow them to still have tariffs that the president could use to threaten other countries at his whim on enough products that I think could eventually make up over 50% of imports into the US so if you think that the Supreme Court is going to lead us to a period of stability, I've got bad news. As long as President Trump is there, they are going to find legal authority and ways to create this kind of havoc, which will be bad for economic certainty, as Claire said. But I also think what's going to hurt him the most is it is going to it's going to be gradual, but it's going to increase prices on everyday goods. And as somebody who was in the Biden White House, let me tell you, that's not good economically and it sure isn't good politically.
- [38:51]
Stephanie Rule
All right, well, I'm not letting either of you leave just yet. More for us to discuss. Jean and Claire will be with us on the other side of the break when we return. It's not just tariffs, more on how Donald Trump is trying to reshape all parts of our economy. We're going to take a quick break and be right back. You don't want to miss this.
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- [40:41]
Stephanie Rule
We are back with Gene and Claire. Claire, the tariffs are just one way that the President has tried to dramatically centralize control of the economy, that is give it to himself, including his pressure on the Fed. We've been talking about that for the last couple of weeks. I want to share what Congressman Ro Khanna said about Trump's attempt to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook.
- [41:03]
Gene Sperling
This has nothing to do with the specifics of Lisa Cook. This has to do with Donald Trump following Richard Nixon's playbook to interfere with the Fed and bully the Fed. The irony is that it's his own policies that have created the situation. If he just repealed the blanket tariffs, he wouldn't be putting the inflationary pressure that exists and the Fed would be able to cut rates. But instead of listening to every economic adviser who has said, don't just have these blanket tariffs, he's insisting on blanket tariffs. That's putting inflationary pressure and leaving the Fed in a no win situation. When President Trump took office, consumer confidence was strong. It has tanked for seven straight months. Farm closures have doubled. Manufacturing was expanding when he took office. It has gone down every single month. Unemployment for young people, almost 11% for recent college graduates. This is a record of economic failure. And the reason it is failing is because of blanket tariffs, because of mass deportation, including immigrants who are paying taxes, and because of interference with the Fed and expertise.
- [42:17]
Stephanie Rule
Claire, what do three more years of Trump's approach to the economy look like?
- [42:22]
Claire Jones
Well, it's a very good question, but we've certainly seen very fundamental changes in the time that he's had so far. We just carried out a poll of economists across the world, in the US and in Europe, too, and they just see this as a real unprecedented attack on the Federal Reserve. And they see the Federal Reserve's independence as something that's really laid behind the strength of the US Economy over recent decades. There's also the sense in which he's not just attacking the Fed, but other economic institutions. We're going to see the latest jobs report at the end of this week. The outfit that produces at the Bureau of Labor Statistics in August saw that its commissioner was unprecedentedly fired over claims that have not had the backing of evidence yet that the data was rigged, according to Donald Trump. And there's just the sense in which, as well, people feel as though US Statistics were really the pride of the world. And economists are very, very concerned that he's not only implementing these policies, such as tariffs, which could have negative effects, but also taking on the economic institutions which have really provided some of the backbone for the US Economic success.
- [43:41]
Stephanie Rule
Jean, given what Claire just laid out for us, given what we just heard from Ro Khanna, what do you think about the fact that we've heard almost nothing from the business community? And you and I both remember during the Biden administration, a lot of people in the Fortune 500 set weren't happy with President Biden. They didn't feel like he called them enough. They didn't Feel like he listened to him enough. We had heard from Jeff Bezos very publicly saying he didn't like how President Biden was handling inflation. Yet here we are with Donald Trump amassing more and more power, pulling away the independence from the Fed, and we're hearing almost nothing from the major business community.
- [44:26]
Gene Sperling
It is so disappointing. Let me tell you, as somebody we served in three different White Houses, I welcome the conversation that I had often with business leaders about the importance of economic certainty, about the importance of the confidence that the White House must exhibit and how it acts and how it respects, as Claire said, our federal institutions. I mean, I can't imagine what any of those people would say to me with a straight face right now with their silence. What we're seeing, had you seen 100th of this, Stephanie, the degree of outrage would have been just amazing. You know, it would have been the dominant news story every single day. And, you know, it was interesting. You know, one of the other comments President Trump made on social media was that if this court's ruling held it would turn us into a third world country or less developed country. But the thing that actually marks the difference between a serious economic and a less serious economic country, and this is proven with economic data and studies, is the seriousness of their independence of the Federal Reserve, the integrity of their statistics, the respect for the rule of law. And we have watched all of these be attacked in ways that have never happened in history. And if any Democratic president would have done, would have been calls for outrage and impeachment. And, you know, I don't know what it's going to take, but perhaps it will be the continuation of the erratic tariff policy. But also we're going to see inflation hitting people for other policies that make no sense. Electricity prices are going up while China is grabbing the lead on solar. There is very little question to me that bank of America and yet Moody's are correct that this mass deportation crackdown is going to lead to more inflation as well. So I think the proof will be in the pudding, and it will be pudding that probably has a tariff on it that average Americans have to decide what they think about.
- [46:47]
Stephanie Rule
However, Gene, thanks to the big beautiful bill, if you buy a new private jet, you can write that puppy off 100%. Gene and Claire, thank you both for joining me this afternoon. When we come back, Donald Trump just cannot let Kamala Harris move on putting the former vice president's safety at risk. We're gonna explain this on the other side of the as of today, former Vice President Kamala Harris no longer has Secret Service protection. This after Donald Trump moved late last week to terminate it. Production for former vice presidents normally ends six months after they leave office, but President Joe Biden signed an order to extend her protection until July of 2026 because of security concerns. The LA Times is now reporting that the California Highway Patrol will step in to protect Harris. That has not yet been confirmed. Governor Gavin Newsom. But LA Mayor Karen Bass, who the Times reports has been involved in the discussions, said this, quote, this is another act of revenge. This puts the former vice president in danger. And I look forward to working with the governor to make sure Vice President Harris is safe. In Los Angeles, Harris is set to embark on a 15 city book tour to promote her new memoir about the presidential campaign later this month. We'll stay on it. Up next, more from some of those protests happening across the nation and a look at what Congress will be met with when they finally return to work this week. The next hour of Deadline White House Labor Day Edition starts right after this.
- [48:26]
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