Nicole Wallace (2:51)

So you're saying she's lying?

Senator Bill Cassidy (2:52)

Yes.

Dr. Deborah Houry (2:53)

Regarding trustworthiness, I cannot define that word for secretary Kennedy I made commitments to this committee that I would lead with integrity, transparency, purpose and work with Congress to maximize health outcomes and protect the American people. Secretary Kennedy told me he could not trust me. I had refused to commit to approving vaccine recommendations without evidence, fire career officials without cause, or resign. And I had shared my concerns with this committee. I told Secretary. I told the secretary that if he believed he could not trust me, he could fire me.

Nicole Wallace (3:29)

So there you have it, he said, she said, if you will. But perhaps even more concerning than Kennedy firing her is why he fired her, why that meeting happens in the first place, what exactly Kennedy was asking Monaros to do. Here's one example.

Dr. Deborah Houry (3:49)

We got into an exchange where I had suggested that I would be open to changing childhood vaccine schedules if the evidence or science were supportive. He responded that there was no science or evidence associated with the childhood vaccine schedule. He elaborated that CDC had never collected the science or the data to make it available related to the safety and efforts.

Senator Rand Paul (4:15)

To be clear, he said there was.

Progressive Ad / Commercial Voice (4:16)

Not science or data but that you still expected you to change the schedule.

Dr. Deborah Houry (4:21)

Correct?

Nicole Wallace (4:25)

This afternoon. There's brand new reporting in the Washington Post entered into the record during today's hearing. It casts new light on a prior meeting between Kennedy and Dr. Minances on August 19th. From that Post report, quote, all major CDC policy decisions need prior political approval, a top aide to Kennedy told Minares a week before her ouster in an Aug. 19 email to Manaros, which was obtained by the Post and has not been previously reported. Matthew Buckham, chief of staff at dhs, wrote this, quote, I wanted to elevate the absolute need for political review of major policy decisions at cdc, end quote. He added that Kennedy's office and CDC political leadership should, quote, have eyes on the decisions for approval changes before they go into effect, end quote. In the end, today's crucial testimony highlighted concerns all too common these days in America. An emphasis from the government on loyalty over science and expertise, the gutting of crucial federal agencies that keep all of us and our children safe, and a political party in MAGA less concerned with the actual issues at hand than the so called anti Trump lawyers representing the whistleblowers who bring it to light. It's where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends and reporters. New York Times health policy and politics reporter Sheryl Gay Stolberg is here. Also joining us, host of the Fast Politics podcast, Vanity Fair special correspondent MSNBC political analyst Molly Dongfast is here. Cheryl, I said he said, she said facetiously as he said she said and the entire scientific community agrees with what at a big picture level was today about.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (6:19)

You know, I went into today's hearing looking for signs of how Secretary Kennedy leads his agency. I think that the basic facts around doctor Minares firing were kind of already out there. She had written an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal saying what you just reported, that, you know, he wanted her to fire top scientists and that he wanted her to accept without question for forthcoming recommendations from his hand picked panel of vaccine advisors. Even without seeing the scientific evidence. What really struck me was the description that she offered of a private meeting between her and Kennedy and some of Kennedy's top deputies where she said he was very, very upset and animated. He accused the CDC of being a corrupt agency, of being, you know, a tool of the pharma industry, of killing children. And I just found that to be kind of just a vivid look into what it feels like to work for Secretary Kennedy. And mind you, this is a woman who the secretary himself said had impeccable scientific credentials. He promoted her to be vaccineto be CDC director. And you know, then 29 days later, he ushered her out the door.

Nicole Wallace (7:41)

It's an extraordinary thing to hear you say as a journalist so expert in this. He accused the CDC of killing children, especially with all the science pointing that there are kids dying in America of measles, again, an eradicated disease. Let me play some of this testimony. You're describing those so all of our viewers can hear it for themselves.

Dr. Deborah Houry (8:02)

He made another set of assertions associated with CDC that were particularly pointed and particularly hurtful and disparaging. He called in that context CDC the most corrupt federal agency in the world, emphasized that CD employees were horrible people. He had said that. Yeah, I'm sorry. He said that CDC employees were killing children and they don't care. He said that CDC employees were bought by the pharmaceutical industry. He said CDC forced people to wear masks and social distance like dictatorship. And the one I think that hurt me the most was a particularly vivid phrase. He said during the COVID outbreak, CDC told hospitals to turn away sick COVID patients until they had blue lips before allowing them to get treatment.

Nicole Wallace (8:59)

And it is fair to say in.

Molly Jong-Fast (9:00)

Your view, that those statements are not true?

Dr. Deborah Houry (9:04)

Those statements are not true.

Nicole Wallace (9:09)

To your broader point, I think, Cheryl, what we as Americans right now, regardless of for whom we cast our vote, or if we didn't cast one at all, the man in charge of our children's vaccine schedules, our access to insurance covered vaccines, and every decision about our health that is in the hands of advisory board or an approver or an insurance agency. It's a sliver of the 1% who can make all their own health care decisions and pay for it. The rest of us are in the hands of some aspect of the federal government. And the person in charge of all of those things describes the people in one of the most vital agencies he leads as quote, horrible people. He describes it as the quote, most corrupt agency and says it's an agency that's killing children. I want to show you something else that came up today. It was about 180 rounds being fired into the CDC building and the trauma that brought about. This is Senator Murphy.

Senator Rand Paul (10:11)

180 rounds being fired into the CDC. What a traumatizing event. Do you fear for the safety of the CDC and of medical personnel if these beliefs about the CDC actually recommending things that hurt people continue to become mainstream?

Dr. Deborah Houry (10:32)

I do worry about that. I myself was subject to threats and I can. I am very concerned that the further promulgation of misleading information will undermine not just the safety and health of our children, but it will also exacerbate some of these tensions. The, the, the con, the, the willingness to commit harm affronted by a belief that the people like us that are trying to help them are actually not trying to help them.

Senator Chris Murphy (11:07)

And I would just say it was 500 rounds, it was 180 that hit the building. Those are. Each bullet was meant for a person. And each of my staff were very traumatized afterwards. I had staff that were covering their kids in the daycare parking lot. There were people that were out at the ride share as bullets were passing over their head. I have many that won't speak about vaccines now and remove their names off of papers they don't wish to present publicly anymore because they feel they were personally targeted because of misinformation.

Nicole Wallace (11:43)

Cheryl, your thoughts?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (11:46)

You know, it's interesting that you played that clip, Nicole, because that's exactly where my mind was going when we talked about his accusations. You know, I've been around a lot of people in public health at the federal, state and local level, and they are not going into government public health jobs to get rich. Most of them have a really strong social conscience. They have a sense of mission. And I think that it is particularly painful for them, as Dr. Houry said, for the secretary to be accusing them of these things in the aftermath of this grievous tragedy at CDC headquarters which took the life of a police officer. And one thing that I was really struck by was that Dr. Manara said that the secretary did not call her to express his condolences after that August 8th shooting. And I might note that President Trump, I do not believe, has ever addressed it either. And Manara said that the next time she spoke to him was when he came down and toured the agency on August 11, three days later. So, you know, I think this was a very painful time for, for these employees. But more than that, there's a huge concern about trust and who can you trust? What do American parents listen to when, you know, the HHS secretary is firing the CDC director and accusing the agency of being corrupt?

Nicole Wallace (13:18)

Well, there's some testimony today about what is happening in America right now. The. This is Ari on measles vaccinations.

Senator Rand Paul (13:30)

If trust in vaccines is diminished, if moms do not take their kids in to get vaccines while the people don't get vaccines, what will that mean in terms of our ability to save lives if, God forbid, another pandemic takes place?

Senator Chris Murphy (13:50)

So we're already beginning to see that as we're seeing childhood vaccination rates decrease. For example, measles is down to about 92.8%. That leaves over 200,000 kids now at risk for measles. So we are at risk for measles outbreaks and for the next type of pandemic, a novel pathogen. With some of the staff cuts we have faced, we have less ready responders, we have less visibility into global pathogens at this time as well, what would happen?

Nicole Wallace (14:17)

So, you know, I'm not great at putting a picture around a statistic. 92.8% still sounds like a big number. But if you believe that every death of a child from a preventable disease is a single tragedy that destroys an entire family, there are 200,000 ticking time bombs that could destroy 200,000 families.

Molly Jong-Fast (14:38)

Yeah. And I think one of the problems with Trumpism is that you never see sort of the, the second order effects. So, for example, there's a question of herd immunity. One of the reasons why we almost eradicated measles was because we had so many, we had so many vaccinated people that there was no way for it to spread. And you can be, you know, this means that older people are vulnerable. This means that people who are vaccinated, but not for a long time ago, you know, are vulnerable. And it means it just opens the door to all kinds of scenarios that are bad. What I thought was the most interesting and important part of, of this hearing in my mind was when we heard Dr. Manera's Be Brave in a way that we have not seen. So, you know, these are these employees, these federal employees who did not get here, come here to get rich, be brave and say, you know, I left because I do this because of my integrity, and I refuse to give that up. And if you think of all the people who have caved to Trump, you know, the billionaires and, you know, the politicians, and here is someone who does not have a ton of power, and she is saying, you know, I did this. I do this job because of my integrity.

Nicole Wallace (15:49)

Well, and what's amazing is she was their pick.

Molly Jong-Fast (15:53)

Yeah.

Nicole Wallace (15:54)

So she was the person they picked, and they underestimated her. And I think you've even had some Democrats on the committee who didn't vote for her nod to that. This is her opening statement that gets to that. On holding the line.

Dr. Deborah Houry (16:08)

On August 25, I could have stayed silent, agreed to the demands, and no one would have known. What the public would have seen were scientists dismissed without cause and vaccine protections quietly eroded, all under the authority of a Senate confirmed director with unimpeachable credentials. I could have kept the office, the title, but I would have lost the one thing that cannot be replaced, my integrity. Some may question my motives or mischaracterize my words, that that is part of public life. But I am not here as a politician. I'm here as a scientist, a public servant, and a parent committed to protecting the health of future generations. The question before us is whether we will keep faith with our children and grandchildren, ensuring they remain safe from the diseases we fought so hard to defeat. Polio, measles, diphtheria, whooping cough, and many others. Undoing that progress would not only be reckless, it would betray every family that trusts us to protect their health.

Nicole Wallace (17:14)

That was the whole thing, the whole point.

Molly Jong-Fast (17:16)

And, you know, you had two doctors, right? Cassidy is a doctor and Maneris is a doctor. And they're talking about science. And she's telling us this horrifying statement where RFK says, you know, none of this is. There's no scientific evidence of this. And we know that, in fact, there is tons and tons of scientific evidence. So I think it was a really profound moment in a case for truth versus untruth, not truths.

Nicole Wallace (17:44)

Well, I think it was that, but I think it was also an example of the price that we will all pay as a public to the Senate being lackeys to Donald Trump. I think there are a lot of stories that are in the news day after day after day in a way that health isn't. But to your point, Cassidy's a doctor.

Molly Jong-Fast (18:06)

Yeah.

Nicole Wallace (18:07)

Cassidy knew Kennedy was the wrong person to lead this agency and he voted for them anyway. That to me is the is its own chapter in the history books of this time for sure.

Molly Jong-Fast (18:16)

And there are a lot of doctors who are senators and they all and most of them, the Republicans all voted for him. And I was sort of shocked because I thought that he and you know, he knows better. And when you hear him in this testimony interviewing her, you see that he knows he made a huge mistake. I mean, that does nothing for us now.

Nicole Wallace (18:35)

But I'm going to ask you guys to stick around. I have more from today's testimony. I have more about what's happening right now. This isn't a looming crisis or something in the future. The under vaccination is happening right now. We're going to be joined as well by Dr. Van Gupta here at the table. Also ahead for us in the broadcast, a closely watched meeting happening in Washington, D.C. today. Fed Chairman Jerome Powell pool making a decision on interest rates with Donald Trump, the ever eager beaver to leave his mark on the independent central bank. Powell leads the presidential pressure campaign that seeks to cripple the economy and bring authoritarian style inflation to America. We'll talk about all of this. Also ahead, FBI Director Cash Patel was back on Capitol Hill today, standing by what he says is his legal inability to release the thousands of documents related to Jeffrey Epson as Democrats continue to hammer him on the story. That will not go away. And later in the show, former President Barack Obama called out Trump and his allies for further dividing our country and exacerbating the growing crisis of political violence that threatens everyone in the arena today. We'll bring you those remarks and much more when DEADLINE White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. It's Stephen A. Smith here.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (19:54)

You want sports?

Nicole Wallace (19:55)

SiriusXM's got it all. Every game, every team, all season long. Debates, rants, hot takes and no filter whatsoever. Trust and believe. You don't want to miss what I have to say this week on the Stephen A. Smith show, only on SiriusXM. If you thought goldenly breaded McDonald's chicken couldn't get more golden, think colder because new sweet and smoky special edition Gold sauce is here made for your chicken favorites.

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Nicole Wallace (20:23)

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Progressive Ad / Commercial Voice (21:14)

It doesn't appear that anybody that's qualified, Nicole and I think that's the worry. And you know, we saw at 2pm Eastern, I had been wanting to talk about this this morning, but 2pm Eastern, the West Coast Health alliance announced that they're going to follow the guidance of the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical associations. We actually saw the health system that I practice in while Dr. Manarez was speaking, sent an email out to the entire healthcare staff saying we're going to follow guidance that existed in 2024. And so you're seeing a world here that is pre budding what's going to happen tomorrow and Friday. And this is what Dr. Manaros was talking about. Nobody trusts who they're putting into place at aesip, what that's going to then ultimately yield. And so now we have these state coalitions and frankly even health systems that are multi state saying we will fill the gap and we're going to, we're going to do something that's going to reinforce prior guidance, number one. But then number two, something interesting happened yesterday that I think didn't get noticed nearly enough is that the American Health Insurance Plans, a coalition of private insurers across the country, said we will continue to do cover vaccines with no cost sharing for patients akin to the guidance that existed last year. So in private insurance companies are saying we're going to step in, we're not going to change a darn thing based on what happens tomorrow and Friday. Hospital systems are stepping and saying, you know, they've never done this before, we're going to issue this guidance. States are coming together and they're all saying the same thing, which is good. So minimizing confusion. The concern though is that Thursday and Friday you ask who's at the, who's steering this, whomever is steering this. And I likely it's, it's the new Director who's going to be a rubber stamp for whatever Acer puts out there, which is worrisome for hep B, measles, mumps, rubella, varicella vaccine, combination vaccine and Covid that if they limit the indications, which would be unprecedented, then the Vaccines for Children entity that's funded through federal appropriations, largely through Medicaid, half the kids in the country get their vaccines for free through that program. If ACIP makes any changes in the next two days, the Vaccine for Children's program will not cover those vaccines for free for kids. And so that's the rub here is government programs will be impacted and they know that they have that power.

Nicole Wallace (23:37)

I want to just share some of our reporting on vaccine rates. 77% of counties and jurisdictions all across our country have reported notable declines in childhood vaccinations that came up today. What does that do? I mean, where are we right now in terms of under vaccinating or refusing to vaccinate kids?

Progressive Ad / Commercial Voice (24:03)

Sure. Well, so you know, take what Ladapo did in Florida. Performative, not substantive. Florida's have seen a rise in non medical exemptions for vaccines over the last. It's been a trend line that's increased over the last 10 years. So announcing that we're going to do away with vaccine requirements for kids in schools was unnecessary because they basically already have an off ramp if people don't want to do that. What are we seeing in Florida? A rise in pertussis, which is you can get vaccinated against a bacterial infection for which there's a vaccine, the TDAP vaccine. But exemptions for that are increasing. So we're seeing many outbreaks of pertussis. We're seeing outbreaks of measles of course. And so the concern here is if we lose herd immunity. You know, Molly, we were talking about this earlier and that's usually around 92% of the community, Nicole, is vaccinated against any of these various infectious diseases. If we go below that threshold, then suddenly we get get these outbreaks and not only is it the unvaccinated child that's most at risk, it's also the vaccinated child that's going through their series of vaccines and maybe mom and dad have to put a young kid in childcare and they're two years old and they haven't gotten their full series. They could get a breakthrough infection. They could bring it home to grandpa, grandma that might be sick or might be on cancer chemotherapy. You can see the domino effects here make everybody at risk in these communities and that's the fear, you know, if they're going to disturb the waters with Hep B vaccine, which would be an extraordinary move directly counter to what Senator Cassidy has focused on for much of his non senate and elected official official public service life. He focused on Hep B vaccination uptake in Louisiana for a reason. And if they start to move away from this, you're going to see epidemics and you're going to see it right at a time where another trend line is concerning. This is the perfect storm not to just be the bearer of bad news. Since 2008, we've seen a sustained decline in pediatric hospital beds across the country because, you know, not to talk dollars and cents, they're not profitable hospital systems close them in favor of adult beds or they just close them. So we've lost about 25, 20, between 20 and 30% based on the community of slack in the system in children's beds across the country right at the time that now we're saying we're going to increase the burden of illness for vaccine preventable diseases for which a child might need a hospital setting with pediatric expertise. It's the perfect storm.

Nicole Wallace (26:31)

Cheryl, I wanted to bring you back into this and ask you if in all your reporting and all your sources in Washington, you hear any sort of organized effort to combat RFK jr's influence. I mean, he was known before he had all this power as way outside the mainstream. His single political benefactor is, is Donald Trump, is there any groundswell of support for trying to trim his sails or is he going full steam ahead in this direction?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (27:05)

So I don't see that yet. My colleague Maggie Haberman and I reported last week that while there are tensions between Trump and Kennedy, there really isn't any evidence that Trump wants to abandon Kennedy. But I thought it was interesting at the hearing today. I think we kind of saw two or really three kinds of Republicans. We saw the Republicans who didn't want to talk about health policy at all. They just wanted to berate Dr. Manarez for hiring a lawyer who is opposed to President Trump. Then we saw Republicans like Roger Marshall and Rand Paul, who are both doctors and who are both very much aligned with Kennedy and questioned, for instance, hepatitis B vaccination, routine vaccination for infants. Then we saw this other group of people who I think are really uneasy, led by Senator Cassidy, who, you know, cast the crucial vote that advanced Kennedy's confirmation. And it seems clear to me that he is deeply uneasy with what Kennedy is doing. And I thought it was notable that he opened the hearing by saying it was in response to seeing whether or not the CDC had lived up to President Trump's call for radical transparency. Now, that's a term that Secretary Kennedy himself has used. And I thought it was telling in a way that Senator Cassidy was kind of throwing that term back at Secretary Kennedy, because what came out of the hearing was that things are maybe not so radically transparent. Dr. Howery said that she learned about a change in COVID vaccine policy on social media. She was the chief medical officer of the CDC learning about a updated COVID vaccine recommendations on X. And so, you know, to answer your question, maybe there's some unease among Republicans with Kennedy, probably not enough to push him out the door right now.

Nicole Wallace (29:06)

I just want to do one more thing. Health care policy should never be made based on politics. But since we know it isn't being based on science, I want to introduce the politics with you, Molly. NBC News obtained a copy of a memo from Aug. 26 summarizing some poll results conducted by Republican pollsters. It concluded this quote, there is broad unity across party lines supporting vaccines such as measles, the MMR shingles, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, tdap, and Hep B. The findings were presented to Republicans, and I will read more from the the poll. It found that there was broad agreement that vaccines should continue to be made available at no cost, including two thirds of Trump voters and more than 80% of swing voters. Eight in 10 respondents said they place their greatest trust in doctors and nurses when it comes to vaccine information, including 76% of Trump voters who said that Kennedy has lost the Trump voter. On these questions, 73% of Trump voters and 83% of swing voters agree that vaccines save lives.

Molly Jong-Fast (30:12)

So this is like the 8020 issue. That is, people want vaccines, they think they're safe, they know they're safe, and they want them. And they work, of course. So here's the I think the real question is I don't understand why Democrats aren't going harder on this, right? Like, people want vaccines now, they can't get them. Insurance is not paying for them. The federal government is not doing what it's supposed to be doing, which is keeping your children safe. And I do think that there really is an opportunity here politically. And remember, Trump is keeping RFK in the fold because he believes that he brings these Maha voters. But the question is, he's going to have to make a choice between the Maha voters and that big swath of independent voters who know the truth, which is that science is real and vaccines work.

Nicole Wallace (31:01)

I feel like the maha voters system term that became much more popular than the numbers because the numbers suggest that 73% of Trump voters and 83% of swing voters agree that vaccines save lives. Obviously, they're not in those numbers, so maybe we talk about them more than they actually are politically relevant because they're most of them are influencers on social media, but they certainly their influence isn't really showing up in the polls here. Thank you for battling traffic and being here at the table with us. Cheryl, thank you for leading us off today as well with your great reporting ahead for us, the Federal Reserve lowered borrowing costs for Americans for the first time in almost a year. Will this rate cut, rate cut be enough to keep Donald Trump quiet? I'm going to guess the answer is no, but we'll see. We'll bring you that story next.

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No purchase necessary. VGW Group void where prohibited by law. CTC's 21+ sponsored by Jamba Casino. Today the Fed cut interest rates by just a quarter of a percent. The Fed cited a weakening job market for its decision today and signaled that it is open to further rate cuts later in the year. The move is of course, clouded by Donald Trump's attempt to take control of what is supposed to be and has always been an independent committee with the Trump appointee Stephen Myron, the only one to vote against the quarter point, he was advocating for steeper cuts. Instead, Donald Trump raced to get Myron confirmed to the board before today's before the meeting, Myron, a Trump loyalist, has repeatedly attacked the Federal Reserve. And if you weren't already concerned about him being independent, he's refused to resign from his day job as the chairman of the White House Council of Economic Advisers. He says he will instead take a leave of absence from that job to serve on the Fed's board, something that has never, ever happened since the creation of the Fed. Donald Trump has also fought tooth and nail to oust Fed Governor Lisa Cook ahead of today's meeting. Yesterday, the White House said it will ask the Supreme Court to allow her firing, which was blocked by an appeals court, to go into effect. Donald Trump's blatant attempts to politicize what has traditionally been a nonpartisan, apolitical body could very well blow up in his face. Politico reports this quote, the risk of getting the policy wrong is particularly high for Fed Chair Jerome Powell and no less so for Trump, whose presidency could ride on the outcome. Joining us from Washington, D.C. where she is covering the Federal Reserve's meeting, my friend Steph Rule co hosted the 11th Hour right here on MSNBC, as well as an NBC News senior business analyst. Also joining us, the former director of the National Economic Council for Presidents Obama and Clinton. Gene Sperling is here. Molly's with me at the table. Steph, tell us what happened today and why.

Stephanie Ruhle (35:08)

So we saw the Fed cut interest rates by a quarter point. And you said it at the top. What's interesting, you know, this was a huge priority for the president. And we saw the newly appointed Fed governor, Steven Stephen Marin as the one who wanted half a point. And what's interesting is I was at the Federal Reserve just a few about an hour ago for the press conference. And when Jay Powell was asked about it, he was Jay Powell. He was cool and confident. And as well, Stephen Mirren. And he said the overwhelming number of Fed governors were in agreement. Everybody wanted it to be 25 basis points even. There were two Fed governors that President Trump appointed in his first term. They dissented. Last time they wanted to cut. They were in line with everyone else. So this is showing us that we are seeing economic slowdown. We know that we're starting to see a slowdown in the jobs picture. We know inflation continues to be a lingering issue. And of course, the tariffs the tariffs are impacting businesses. Businesses that are eating the cost costs. Well, they're not out there hiring and building and businesses that are passing the costs on to us. You and I, well, we're facing higher costs in most of the things we buy. So this economic slowdown is why we're getting the rate cut that so many people want. But remember, we're getting the rate cut to protect us from the downside of the economy.

Nicole Wallace (36:28)

Donald Trump's poll numbers are down in a lot of areas, but I don't think any so dramatically as the economy. This is FOX News. We'll just go with them. Today, among registered voters, has Donald Trump made the economy better or worse? 52% said worse. Only 30% said better. CNBC's survey of the nation's top money managers and investment strategists and professional economists said this. 82% of them believe that Trump's actions are intended to eliminate the independence of the Fed. 68% of them believe Trump will increase inflation with all of his actions. 57% believe Trump's actions will increase unemployment. 54% believe Trump's policies and actions will slow economic growth. Steph, where are we heading?

Stephanie Ruhle (37:16)

Well, one thing that's not on there to think about that impacts all of this is immigration, Right? So we already have a labor shortage in this country. If the president does want this manufacturing boom to come back, who are going to be the unskilled laborers who are going to build these factories and who are going to be the skilled laborers to fill these jobs? When you are enacting mass deportation, you've got a mismatch. It's not going to happen. And the stunning thing is we saw so many people, those undecided voters who were unhappy with nagging inflation, they didn't like that. The Biden administration said it's short term, it's transient. And they were, they turned to Donald Trump, the business guy candidate who promised to lower prices on day one. And we're not seeing it across the board. So we could have all this misinformation. We could have media spinning something to the right, something to the left. People know how much their life costs. They know what the rent is. They know what it costs to buy a car. They know what it costs to go to the grocery store. And you know what life is in America today? More expensive than it was last year, period, end of sentence.

Nicole Wallace (38:19)

Gene, let me bring you in on this. It seems that, you know, 25, I'm going to date myself, 30 year old. It's the economy, stupid. That James Carville wrote on the door has always been true. It remains true. It feels like there's a second piece of that story, though. He lied to you. He stood in front of melting meat at Bedminster and said, all the grocery items behind me will be cheaper. And not one of them is, how do you tell that story in a new way? Or how do you tell that story at all in this divided moment in our country?

Senator Bill Cassidy (38:58)

Well, the truth is that the smart thing for Donald Trump to have done when he was elected is let the economy flow as it was supposed to and try to take credit for it. On November 17, a week after the election, Goldman Sachs, and this was consistent across the board, was projecting inflation would come down to 2% and growth would stay pretty strong. Remember the phrase that was the soft landing. So you now could have had inflation coming down. It was projected to, with growth and employment staying pretty strong. Now you could have seen him taking some policy that would hurt growth or hurt inflation, but he literally came up with the combination, the brew, the rather negative brew for the economy of both raising inflation and hurting economic growth. And so now you have a Federal Reserve that has to try to deal with a weaker economy and higher inflation. And you know, I'll be the first to say presidents often get more credit or more blame. But the fact that growth, growth is estimated to be lower and unemployment weaker and then inflation has gone up is a direct and clear response to both the, the tariff policy of the president, the kind of reckless, erratic policy, and I think, as Stephanie said, is going to be reflected in the immigration policy too, which also has the quality of both lowering growth and rising inflation. So the Federal Reserve is in a tough right now because of the self inflicted wound to the economy that this president has done. So it is kind of stunningly bad economic policy. But it's very puzzling politically. If there was like one national lesson every politician should have learned, it's that after the inflation is that if everyday prices in coffee or vegetables are beef are going up, that kind of drowns out everything else. Now you have a president who has annualized over the last three months, coffee going up by over 30%, beef up by 30%. This is annualized vegetables. These are everyday product. And at the same time, you've got the economy weakening. So what is just extraordinary is if the president had done nothing, he could have been bragging about inflation coming down. Now he's done it in such a visible way that you've got two thirds of the economy, we saying they're unhappy with the prices, but pinpointing his tariff policy as the cause.

Nicole Wallace (41:53)

So speaking of coffee, we've got the CEO of McDonald's saying that the economy is so bad Americans are skipping breakfast. I'll tell you about that on the other side of a very short break. We'll all be right back. Part of what we also saw was that particularly with middle and lower income consumers, they're feeling under a lot of pressure. It's really kind of a two tier economy. If you're upper income earning over $100,000, things are good. What we see with middle and lower income consumers is actually a different story. It's that consumers under a lot of pressure in our industry. Traffic for lower income consumers is down double digits. And it's because people are either choosing to skip a meal. So we're seeing breakfast. People are actually skipping breakfast.

Progressive Ad / Commercial Voice (42:43)

Interesting.

Nicole Wallace (42:43)

Or they're choosing to just eat at home. Skipping breakfast.

Senator Bill Cassidy (42:49)

Yeah.

Molly Jong-Fast (42:49)

You know this, remember with the bbb, before it passed, it was said to be and the Congressional Budget Office said it was the largest transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top. And that's where the bbb.

Nicole Wallace (43:01)

Beautiful, beautiful bill.

Progressive Ad / Commercial Voice (43:03)

Yes.

Molly Jong-Fast (43:03)

I think it was meant ironically. So I do think. And look, you know, the tariffs have a direct effect on what we're watching. And Remember in Trump 1.0 he did huge tax cut and then he did these sort of minor, smaller sort of scalpel like tariffs. And in this time in Trump 2.0 he did the tariffs first and it's really been inflationary and it's a drag and things are more expensive. And then you have things like what happened with the Honda factory, Hyundai factory in Georgia where all of these people were swept up in an ice raid and they are back in South Korea. And I don't know how you encourage manufacturing when you have ice arresting people.

Nicole Wallace (43:43)

Amazing, amazing signs of the times. Thank you for sifting through all of it with us. Gene Sperling. Steph, thank you for being here with us today. Molly, thank you for spending the hour with us here at the table. Ahead for us, Donald Trump Jeffrey Epstein story. It's gone transatlantic. We'll show you what that means and looks like next. President Donald Trump is in London for a state visit. He is meeting with the royal family. He's sitting down right about now for a state dinner. And it turns out fleeing our country is not enough to keep Trump from being forced to confront his Jeffrey Epstein political problems. Photos of Donald Trump and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein were projected onto Windsor Castle last night. The photos included the two joined by First Lady Melania Trump and Epstein's co conspirator, the convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell, as well as the lewd birthday message Donald Trump allegedly sent to Jeffrey Epstein in 2003 for his 50th birthday book. The Epstein story is not just an American political crisis story. It is one that has also rocked the UK in 2019, Prince Andrew King Charles younger brother announced that he would be stepping away from all of his royal duties as a result of the backlash related to his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And the release of this so called Epstein birthday book has also led to the dismissal of UK Ambassador to the US Peter Mandelson. He was fired last week over his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Up next for us, it was this story, the Epstein story, that dominated another day of congressional testimony for FBI Director Kash Patel on Capitol Hill. Congressman Dan Goldman will join our conversation just ahead. We're going to sneak in a break. We'll be right back. Foreign.

Senator Rand Paul (45:47)

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