“Nothing matters more than the survivors”

Summary

Deadline: White House — "Nothing matters more than the survivors"

Date: December 23, 2025
Host: Alicia Menendez (in for Nicolle Wallace)
Guests: Jennifer Freeman, Barbara McQuaid, Tim Miller, Congressman LaMonica McIver, Reverend Al Sharpton, Alan Orr, Jacob Soboroff

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Overview

This episode is centered on two urgent topics:

• The Department of Justice’s incomplete and controversial release of files related to Jeffrey Epstein, with a focus on survivor advocacy, transparency failures, and political fallout.
• Shocking conditions inside a Newark ICE detention center following the death of a detainee, illuminating the cruelty and neglect within America’s immigration system under the Trump administration.

Throughout, Alicia Menendez and expert guests return to a central theme: justice and dignity for survivors, and holding institutions and leaders accountable for their failures.

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Epstein Case: Survivors, Congressional Scrutiny, and Political Fallout

Survivors and System Failure (01:25–10:17)

• Alicia Menendez grounds the episode by underscoring the centrality of survivors amid new, highly redacted DOJ files on Epstein:

  "Nothing, nothing matters more than the survivors and the justice they sorely deserve." (01:28)

• The recent DOJ document release:
  • Evinces decades-long failures to protect survivors.
  • Names Donald Trump multiple times, although DOJ insists these files contain “unfounded and false” claims against him and that “none of this is a hoax.”

The Experience of Survivor Maria Farmer

• Jennifer Freeman, attorney for survivor Maria Farmer, sharply criticizes government inaction:

  “This is just an ongoing failure by the US government to these survivors. And the biggest failure was to Maria Farmer, my client... What did the government do in response to her 1996 report? Absolutely nothing.” (05:18)

  • Maria Farmer first reported Epstein and Maxwell’s conduct to the FBI in 1996, including allegations of child sexual abuse material. The FBI ignored her, resulting in further trauma to over 1,200 known survivors.
• Farmer’s public statement:

  “This revelation brings some validation, but not justice or accountability. It must lead to real answers about who knew what and when and why our government’s justice system failed so badly.” (06:36)

Congressional Oversight and Calls for Investigation

• Rep. Robert Garcia (read by Menendez) demands investigation of the FBI:

  “The American public should be outra[g]ed that the FBI had information... and yet failed to protect women and children for decades.” (08:01)

• Freeman strongly supports further investigation but emphasizes accountability beyond document release:

  “The documents... tell an important part of the story, but they can't tell all the story... There was another set of investigatory episodes in 2005–2008. What did they do then?... It's just over and over. Survivor voices... need to be listened to.” (09:30)

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DOJ Redactions, Accountability, and Political Optics (10:17–16:35)

Legal and Political Analysis

• Barbara McQuaid, former U.S. Attorney, stresses that the focus should be on the survivors, not on protecting reputations:

  “It’s not about President Trump, it’s about the survivors. One document in particular... made reference to 10 co-conspirators. Who are those 10 people?” (10:42)

  • DOJ heavily redacted those names, though law permits their release unless privacy or ongoing investigations are at stake.

  “From a DOJ perspective... that's not the way DOJ ordinarily does business... The law... specifically says that protecting people’s reputations or political interests is not a basis to withhold it.” (11:42)

• McQuaid suspects that DOJ is protecting identities under the guise of ongoing investigation, potentially misleading the public.

Tim Miller’s Perspective

• Tim Miller notes the inconsistency and suspicions caused by DOJ’s actions:

  “They’re acting like they're covering something up. They're acting like they're guilty and they're creating a lot of fodder for the Robert Garcias of the world...” (15:44)

  • Points to evidence of a “SharePoint file” with all Trump mentions, questioning why full transparency is missing.
  • Miller criticizes both DOJ’s preemptive statements exonerating Trump and the ongoing politicization.

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Survivor Trauma and Government Retraumatization (16:35–18:55)

• Congresswoman LaMonica McIver (herself an Epstein survivor) articulates unique survivor pain:

  "And this should have been cut and dry once again and it wasn’t. And it’s just a circle of abuse... this is not just retraumatizing of what happened to us. We’re being re-traumatized by our government." (17:01)

• Barbara McQuaid insists DOJ’s process is deeply harmful:

  “Every time there is this trickle and you don’t have everything and sorry, maybe later, it is retraumatizing to all of these victims. And that is just not the way the Justice Department is supposed to treat survivors and victims.” (18:51)

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Prospects for a Special Master and Democratic Oversight (18:55–20:32)

• Menendez raises Rep. Jamie Raskin’s proposal for a Congressional special master to oversee the Epstein files.
• Tim Miller is cautious but thinks bipartisan support is possible following prior pressure for transparency.

  “If Raskin get[s] Massie on board... you might see a similar trajectory as you saw with the release of the files... [Democrats] could appoint a special master if they regain the House.” (19:22)

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Fallout for the MAGA Coalition and Republican Politics (22:13–28:41)

• The slow-drip release of Epstein files and Trump’s responses are spotlighted as moments of tension in the MAGA (Make America Great Again) coalition.
  • GOP infighting, divisions at the recent America Fest, and J.D. Vance’s alignment with far-right figures reveal deepening rifts.

Political Analysis of the Republican Party

• Rev. Al Sharpton argues MAGA never had a true unifying ideology:

  “Donald Trump always saw this as a political fan club more than he saw it as a movement... Now that it has to transition into becoming a political movement, you’ve got to deal with, do we really believe this or that?” (23:27)

• Tim Miller: The real fight is within MAGA — between old-line Republicans and new far-right populists:

  “It’s like a Game of Thrones situation. Now all of them are fighting for control. I think the real fight is... between... a MAGA establishment... and further right figures who want basically full nationalism, closed borders, no more support of Israel, embracing conspiracy theories.” (25:01)

• Menendez underscores a moral opportunity for the GOP, searching for leadership willing to reject extremism.
• Sharpton: No one is emerging yet with true moral clarity and leadership:

  “...the blue suede shoes don't fit on J.D. Vance. This is just an Elvis moment and they cannot do Elvis.” (28:27)

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Conditions in ICE Detention: Death at Delaney Hall (30:21–39:38)

On-the-Ground Testimony

• Congresswoman LaMonica McIver recounts her oversight visit following the death of detainee John Wilson Brutus.

  “This facility should be closed... Many of them on approved work visas, student visas that have not expired, have been literally detained... Many of them were going through the right process... This DHS and this president is arresting folk for doing the right thing.” (32:18, 35:48)

  • Detainees report lack of food, medical care, and degrading treatment (e.g., women limited to two sanitary pads/day).

  “These are hard working folks who were here legally, working hard, you know, going to school and literally kidnapped and arrested and behind bars and cages...” (36:13)

  • ICE obstructed the investigation, gave inconsistent answers, and failed to notify family promptly.

Broader Analysis: U.S. Immigration Detention

• Jacob Soboroff connects the horrific conditions described in Newark with a national trend:

  “It reminds me of the many people that I have met over the course of this year, including... the student that was taken on her way home from college for Thanksgiving... We always said there were going to be more stories like the ones that made it onto the national news.” (40:17)

• Alan Orr, former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, is blunt:

  "That would be a no.” (41:52), asked if Trump’s administration has done everything possible to prevent deaths and suffering.

  • Mass detention is a "choice," driven by profit, not necessity:

    “This is public money being funneled into private profit... These things are a violation of the law.” (42:06, 42:30)

America’s Moral Moment

• Menendez: “These people, their lives matter, their communities matter. When we talk about people in terms of numbers, it's easy to lose track of the real human cost of what is happening...” (41:11)
• Soboroff: “The fact that it was a bipartisan condemnation... not even bipartisan, universal, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in the street. The pope spoke out... This is a different time. And I think we're seeing that shift happen in real time.” (43:11)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Alicia Menendez: “Nothing, nothing matters more than the survivors and the justice they sorely deserve.” (01:28)
• Jennifer Freeman: “Absolutely nothing... Which leaves us with over approximately 1,200 survivors and their families and over 30 years of trauma.” (05:22)
• Barbara McQuaid: “It’s not about President Trump, it’s about the survivors.” (10:42)
• Tim Miller: “They’re acting like they're covering something up. They're acting like they're guilty.” (15:44)
• Congresswoman LaMonica McIver: “We’re being re-traumatized by our government.” (17:16)
• Rev. Al Sharpton: "This is just an Elvis moment and they cannot do Elvis. The blue suede shoes don't fit on J.D. Vance." (28:27)
• Congresswoman McIver: “This facility should be closed… These are not people who committed crimes... Many of them picked up from immigration hearings, from going to court, meeting with immigration officials. They were then literally arrested and detained.” (35:48)
• Alan Orr: “This is public money being funneled into private profit...We should also stop this mass detention and say, what is going on here with this profit?” (42:06)

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Segment Timestamps

• Recap and focus on Epstein survivors: 01:25–03:31
• Reaction to Trump statements, DOJ comments: 03:31–04:34
• Interview: Attorney Jennifer Freeman on survivors’ treatment and FBI failures: 05:02–10:17
• Legal roundtable on DOJ redactions and Congressional oversight: 10:42–16:35
• Survivor and government response to trauma: 16:51–18:55
• Special master debate, political implications: 18:55–20:32
• MAGA coalition cracks and GOP moral void: 22:13–28:41
• Delaney Hall ICE facility: Oversight visit and detainee death: 30:21–39:38
• Broader context and expert analysis of ICE conditions: 40:17–43:53

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Conclusion

This episode of Deadline: White House delivers a forceful indictment of institutional failure—from the FBI’s disregard for Epstein survivors to the cruelty in America’s immigration detention system—while drawing sharp lines around what true justice, transparency, and moral leadership should look like. Survivor voices are foregrounded as the catalyst for overdue accountability—whether in the pursuit of full document disclosure in the Epstein case or in exposing dehumanizing conditions inside ICE facilities. Political implications are debated through the lens of a party and nation grappling with both leadership and conscience.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less Holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com SpecialOffer Terms Apply Ms. Now presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week she sits down with election litigation attorney Mark Elias.

[Tim Miller]

We have this existential threat. I have tools available to me to.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Fight it and so I'm gonna fight it. The Best People with Nicole Wallace. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tim Miller]

I am no longer supporting this administration. I redact any support I've ever given to him.

[Alicia Menendez]

Pam Bondi, Cash Patel.

[Congresswoman LaMonica McIver]

I am so disgusted with this administration. I think that Pam Bondi and Cash.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Patel both need to resign. And I would love to see number 47 get impeached over this.

[Alicia Menendez]

Hi again everybody. It is five o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in Today for Nicole Wallace. Again and again. It is worth repeating, especially on days like today, that when it comes to the monstrous crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and the brand new details freshly in the hands of the American public this afternoon, nothing, nothing matters more than the survivors and the justice they sorely deserve. In fact, one of the prevailing themes of what the Department of Justice has released so far, including today, is the way in which those innocent people, hundreds of them going back decades, were essentially put to the side. We heard from one of them, Danny Bensky, just last hour. We know Senator Chuck Schumer wants answers from the federal government about one newly released, highly redacted email exchange. In particular one that refers to a number of potential co conspirators that federal agents wanted to talk to the day after Epstein was arrested back in 2019. This latest batch of documents, unlike the earlier ones, also references Donald Trump's a number of times. In response, the Department of Justice released a statement suggesting some of these documents contain untrue and sensationalist claims made against Trump, claims the DOJ insists are unfounded and false. And while nothing we've learned so far indicates Trump engaged in illegality in any way, we're going to go back to where we began. The survivors going back years. Trump has provided, what can I call it? Head scratching commentary on the matter. Remember when Epstein's criminal companion, Ghislaine Maxwell, was arrested and what Trump said in that moment?

[Narrator/Announcer]

I don't know. I haven't really been following her too much. I just wish her well, frankly. I've met her numerous times over the years, especially since I lived in Palm beach, and I guess they lived in Palm beach, but I wish her well, whatever it is.

[Alicia Menendez]

Wish her well. Though nothing about the people who survived her abuse. It's a theme. It is a theme that has carried on. Here's how Trump responded to questions about the Epstein controversy back in August.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Look, the whole thing is a hoax. It's put out by the Democrats because we've had the most successful six months in the history of our country. And that's just a way of trying to divert attention to something that's total bullshit.

[Alicia Menendez]

Of course, the documents released today support what has been true since the beginning, that none of this is a hoax. Trump's streak of commentary on the matter extended into yesterday. Here's what he said about Epstein and the rolling release of new information.

[Tim Miller]

Everybody was friendly with this guy, either.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Friendly or not friendly, but they were, you know, he was around. He was all over Palm beach and other places. You probably have pictures being exposed of other people that innocently met Jeffrey Epstein years ago, many years ago, and they're, you know, highly respected bankers and lawyers and others. Pictures are being released of other people that really had nothing to do with Epstein, but they're in a picture with him because he was at a party, and you ruin a reputation of somebody. So a lot of people are very angry that this continues.

[Alicia Menendez]

Whatever Trump has said or will say about a profoundly nightmarish series of events for hundreds of innocent girls will repeat, this is about justice and it is about those brave survivors. And that is where we start this hour with Jennifer Freeman. She is a leading attorney advocate at Marsh Law Firm. She represents several Epstein survivors, including Maria Farmer. Jennifer, it is always good to see you. Your reaction to what we have learned just in the past 24 hours.

[Jennifer Freeman]

It's always good to see you, too, Alicia. Thank you for having me on again. I appreciate it. In the last 24 hours, what we've seen is an ongoing failure by the US Government, by the FBI, by the federal government, and now we're seeing it daily. The drip, drip, drip of information and the redaction problems. Whether the victim names are not redacted or if they are redacted, they then can be unredacted. I don't know if this is incompetence or somewhat intentional. Whatever the reason for this, this is just an ongoing failure by the US government to these survivors. And the biggest failure was to Maria Farmer, my client Maria Farmer, who in 1996 was reported Epstein and Maxwell to the FBI and she reported their sex abuse. And she reportedafter being sexually assaulted herself, by the way. And she reported child pornographyalledged child pornography of her sisters because Epstein had stolen certain important photos that werecould be construed as in that way. And this is. Meanwhile, Maria had to face so much harassment and death threats and so much more because what did the government do in response to her 1996 report? Absolutely nothing. Which leaves us with over approximately 1,200 survivors and their families and over 30 years of trauma.

[Alicia Menendez]

I want to read the statement that your client Maria Farmer released today. This is what she wrote. We now all know that the FBI ignored my 1996 reports of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's sexual abuse of minors and possession of child sexual abuse material which I made not for myself, but for vulnerable girls like my younger sisters and Virginia Robert Giuffre. Since then they have gauged in a systematic cover up to protect him and his circle of powerful abusers. This revelation brings some validation, but not justice or accountability. It must lead to real answers about who knew what and when and why our guards government's justice system failed so badly. Let's talk about that last point. What type of documents would you want to see that would help you explain and understand the systematic failures that have occurred over the course of the past 30 years?

[Jennifer Freeman]

Well, let's start with what happened in response to Maria's 1996 report. She reported Epstein and Maxwell. She reported their CSAM violence violations. She reported their sex abuse. What did the government do? What did the FBI do? What kind of inquiries did they make? They certainly never called her back. In fact, they hung up on her. So. But I want to know what did they know and when did they know it? Because certainly not nothing was done.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congressman Robert Garcia, the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee wants an investigation into the FBI's handling of your client's situation. This is what he wrote in a statement. Let me read it to you. The American public should be outra that the FBI had information about the horrific crimes Jeffrey Epstein was committing in the 1990s and yet failed to protect women and children for decades. We are fighting to end the Epstein cover up for survivors like Maria Farmer who has failed by her own government over and over. We will not stop until we have transparency for the survivors and the American people. Would you, would Maria support such an investigation, your sense of what it could turn up?

[Jennifer Freeman]

We absolutely support Maria Farmer and I and many other survivors we've spoken to support such an investigation. In fact, Alicia, in 2023, I wrote a letter to the FBI and the inspector general and the attorney general reminding them, telling them that Maria Farmer reported Epstein and Maxwell in 1996. And what did they do in response to my letter? Again, nothing. So, yes, we are very happy that there is some action that will be taken, we hope, in response to Representative Garcia's letter. But it's way overdue. But it needs to be done and that's just the first step.

[Alicia Menendez]

Say more. If that is just the first step, what comes next.

[Jennifer Freeman]

After that? We want to see what they knew after that. What did they know and when did they know it? Because the documents alone don't help part of the story. They tell an important part of the story, but they can't tell all the story. So we need to understand what happened. What did they know? When did they know it? Did they take any action whatsoever? There was another set of investigatory episodes in 2005-2008. What did they do then? They came up with a non prosecution agreement. A deal of a century for Epstein. Why did they do that? Why are they still not paying attention to survivors? It's just over and over. There's survivor voices who have been incredibly strong, incredibly powerful and incredibly poignant. They need to be listened to.

[Alicia Menendez]

Truly unbelievable. I too have a lot of questions about that agreement down in Florida. Jennifer Freeman, thank you so much for joining us today and getting us started on this important topic. I want to bring in legal analyst Barbara McQuaid. She is a former U.S. attorney and now a law professor at the University of Michigan, plus political analyst and host of the Bulwark Podcast. Tim Miller is here with us as well. Barbara, first of all, anything that caught your eye in today's release?

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah, I think one of the things that's so important is this idea of protecting the survivors and the victims that we just heard from Jennifer. What we saw from DOJ was a post online about protecting President Trump and how people are trying to smear President Trump. It's not about President Trump, it's about the survivors. And so one document in particular I thought was very interesting was the document that made reference to 10 co conspirators. Who are those 10 people? I think that this is something that the survivors would like to know so that they could pursue their own, perhaps civil cases. Even if the Justice Department did not find sufficient evidence to charge them criminally, the fact that they characterized them as co conspirators suggests that they did have some culpability. I think that's information that can and should be provided to the survivors so that they can now pursue those individuals and individually for civil damages.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, let's stay on that point, Barbara, what did you make of the fact that those 10 names were redacted? I'm not surprised.

[Barbara McQuaid]

From a DOJ perspective, however, based on what we have from Congress, this very extraordinary law that was passed that requires transparency. That is not the way DOJ ordinarily does business, which is to protect the identities of individuals that it does not ultimately charge to protect their privacy and reputation. The law that was passed by Congress specifically says that protecting people's reputations or political interests is not a basis to withhold it. The only basis is an ongoing criminal investigation or privacy and protection of the survivors or a national security exception. Some things along those lines. I don't know how any of these 10 fall into those lines unless DOJ is continuing to investigate. You would think, however, if that were the case, they would have accompanied that with a comment or statement about it. I am also mindful of the fact that in November, President Trump called for a renewal of an investigation into connections between Jeffrey Epstein and Democrats, and only Democrats. And Pam Bondi said she was doing that quite promptly. And so this law does allow her to withhold certain documents if it could be.

[Alicia Menendez]

If it could.

[Barbara McQuaid]

If the release would jeopardize an ongoing criminal investigation. So it strikes me as perhaps a little too convenient as a way to protect the identities of people who might otherwise be disclosed. But that would be at least a legally permissible reason for DOJ to keep those names secret at this time.

[Alicia Menendez]

I'm just so struck, Tim, by that sound we played earlier from Donald Trump saying, like, yeah, everybody knew Jeffrey Epstein. Like, yeah, if you lived in Palm beach, you bumped into him on the street. But bumping into someone on the street is fundamentally different than taking eight plane rides on their private jet with them between 1993 and 1996. I get that. Substantively, there's actually not a ton to dig into here, given the DOJ redactions. But even the pieces that are coming out, they begin once they both sort of double down on some of the narrative that is already out there and they open up an entirely new series of questions.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure. And in addition to that, there were the women who at the time were young girls that have made allegations against Epstein and Maxwell. A couple of them made allegations not against Donald Trump himself, but said that Jeffrey Epstein trafficked them to other men and that they went to parties with Jeffrey Epstein and that one of them said Donald Trump was there to all four parties. So we continue to get evidence that it wasn't as if they were just acquaintances that showed up to the same functions in society in Palm Beach. They were friends, they were close friends. They're characterized as such. And that's being shown in the files. It's being shown in additional reporting that came out from the New York Times this week interviewing Epstein victims. Look, there continue to be additional questions. There's an obvious cover up element to this. Everybody has guesses or assumptions about what they think is being covered up. We don't really know. But he's covering up something we know for of fact, based on what DOJ submitted to Dick Durbin and others on the Hill, that when they were originally going through these files, they asked the FBI agents to flag mentions of Donald Trump and that they had those mentions gathered in a SharePoint file. And so if you're going to do a release of Epstein files and Epstein documents, we know that they already have all of the Trump mentions. Not all of them, but they have a collection of Trump mentions that they had gathered during that first epidemio effort back in earlier in this year to go through the files. And so why aren't those out? You know, if Donald Trump wanted to demonstrate that he's an innocent man, he was just, you know, a guy that was in between marriages hanging out with Epstein from time to time, but wasn't doing anything untoward. Well, then let's just see them all. Let's see everything that's in that SharePoint file. He's not doing that. They're acting very suspicious. You know, the Department of Justice putting out like a North Korean esque statement with today's information saying that, you know, none of this stuff is aimed at Trump demonstrates any wrongdoing. And if it did demonstrate wrongdoing, then the Democrats would have weaponized it against them. And it's just a preposterous statement being put out by the DOJ that simultaneously is putting out statements trying to direct people to kind of circumstantial evidence about Bill Clinton's relationships with Epstein. So they're acting like they're covering something up. They're acting like they're guilty and they're creating a lot of fodder for the Robert Garcias of the world. And The Democrats on the Hill, if they take back the House next year in particular, I'm sure they're going to have more subpoena power, more ability to get more information. This isn't something that's ending anytime soon.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, they're also adding to the great frustration of survivors. We heard Haley Robson, an Epstein survivor, call for Trump's impeachment. At the top of the hour, I want to take a listen to another of Epstein survivors talk about the trauma specifically that has been brought on by the US Government.

[Congresswoman LaMonica McIver]

We're trying to get justice for all of them and all of us, but.

[Alicia Menendez]

It just seems like every time we.

[Congresswoman LaMonica McIver]

Think we're in the right step, in.

[Alicia Menendez]

The right direction, the government goes and.

[Congresswoman LaMonica McIver]

Does something else and lets us down. And this should have been cut and dry once again and it wasn't. And it's just a circle of abuse. And I think everyone also forgets that when we're going through this continuously that this is an emotional and retraumatizing all the time. And this is not just re traumatizing of what happened to us. We're being re traumatized by our government.

[Alicia Menendez]

A circle of abuse. Barb, that is not the role that government is supposed to play.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah, I can't emphasize this point too much. One of the things that was really ingrained in me as a prosecutor was the importance when you're prosecuting a case of not re victimizing victims. And there are a lot of ways that can happen just by putting them through the ringer and making sure that at every step of the way, you're being very sensitive to their challenges, their hurt, their pain and handling things in ways that can minimize that. What we've seen instead from the Justice Department is this trickle of documents. The deadline to produce all of these documents was Friday. Instead of producing all of the documents on Friday, they began producing the documents on Friday. They are continuing to trickle them out. They say that they post them, then they take some down and then post them back up. And they say if there's anything that got posted here that you think was problematic, let us know and we'll take it back down. You would think that by now they would have their ducks in a row. One of the things that Todd Blanche said the other day was that they had 200 people working on this redaction. Well, you know what? It's the law to put it out by last Friday, maybe you needed 300. Whatever it takes, you gotta get that job done. Because every time there is this trickle and you don't have everything and sorry, maybe later it is retraumatizing to all of these victims. And that is just not the way the Justice Department is supposed to treat survivors and victims.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tim, I'm not sure if you were watching the program earlier, if you were busy wrapping your gifts, but we spoke with Congressman Jamie Raskin about the possibility that he is now floating of Congress working together to appoint a special master, someone who could actually sort of be a non biased arbiter of all of this. Your sense of whether or not there is enough Republican will to pull something like that over the finish line?

[Tim Miller]

You know, it's hard to say exactly, you know, because what happened last time, as you recall, is you basically had what, four Republicans that were speaking out and saying that they wanted these finals released may screen Boebert and Massie. And they put enough pressure and they were stalwart enough, you know, gotta give them credit in this instance that eventually, you know, the kind of, you know, there's this ripple effect and you know, all the dominoes fell. Right. Like everybody else said, okay, well if we're doing this, we gotta be on board with this too. We don't want to be seen as the one standing in the way. So I think a similar question would have to happen with something like that, a special master, right. Like would, could Raskin get Massie on board? Probably. Could he get on a couple of other Republicans that would have the backbone to go for it? I think if so, you might see a similar trajectory as you saw with the release of the files then. I would also say, just as I mentioned, we're now, I guess a year away. It's obviously a long time for victims, long time politically from potentially the Democrats being able to take back the House where they wouldn't need any Republicans to appoint a special master. So I think there are a couple of potential avenues for the democrats there.

[Alicia Menendez]

Barbara McQuaid, thank you so much for joining us today. Tim, you are sticking with me. When we return, how the Epstein files and Donald Trump's presence in them has helped reveal cracks in the MAGA coalition, cracks which came to a head in recent days as Trump's base grapples with what comes next. We have that conversation ahead. Plus, the United States Congresswoman arrested the last time she visited an ICE detention facility, returned today to conduct her constitutionally approved oversight duties. What she saw today about the conditions inside that detention center. Later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft, but LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com Specialoffer terms apply. Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Craig Cassar, who chairs the Progressive Caucus Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now.

[Alicia Menendez]

The incomplete Slow Drip and Curious Disappearance of Epstein files since Friday marks a pivotal moment not just for Donald Trump's mishandling of the scandal and his own presence in the files, but for his MAGA movement too. After weeks of infighting revealed cracks in the coalition and Republicans further delaying the release by literally shutting the government down, the fracturing came to a head this weekend when J.D. vance promised to fight alongside extremists, conspiracy theorists and Holocaust deniers rather than exclude them from the party. This from Axios today, quote Instead of bridging MAGA's divides, America Fest underscored how fractured the movement has become and how little appetite there is on either flank for compromise. What that means for maga's future, well, that is anyone's guess, especially as the Bulwark points out today, as Trump brags that MAGA was my idea, but for whom? What it turns into after him, quote, doesn't seem to be any of his concern. I want to bring in host of Politics Nation and President of the National Action Network, Reverend Al Sharpton. Tim is still with us. All right, your reaction to just the past few days, the release of this second tranche of files and what we saw at America Fest?

[Narrator/Announcer]

Well, I think that the release of the files and drip, drip, drip release is clearly something that shows if you're hiding something, you must feel you have something to hide. I mean, so clearly it has increased people's suspicions more than put them at rest. And I think that when you see the coming apart at the seams of some of the MAGA movement, it ought to be concerning to Donald Trump. But it's not because Donald Trump always saw this as a political fan club more than he saw it as a movement and he was not looking to Try and build a movement. He was building a fan base for himself. Now that it has to transition into becoming a political movement, you've got to deal with, do we really believe this or that? And you're finding people have opposing views who are serious about political movements. They may be diametrically opposed to everything I believe in, but they believe in things. And now they don't have the star there turning them into a fan club that makes the discussions about what we really believe in not have to happen. Now they're beginning to happen because Tim.

[Alicia Menendez]

Miller Political movement requires infrastructure. And you have this reporting that former Vice President Pence's nonprofit is poaching officials from the Conservative Heritage foundation, which is famously where Project 2025 comes from. Does that tell you anything about the future of the party?

[Tim Miller]

Well, it does. Look, I think Raphael is really insightful there, talking about how maga, in a lot of ways, is this fan club. Right. The unifying element that brought everybody in MAGA together was that they wanted Donald Trump to be president. They were for Donald Trump. And Donald Trump is, in a lot of ways, sometimes incoherent on policy. There are a few things that he's been consistent on, tariffs, border wall, et cetera. But a lot of other stuff he's very malleable. And so it allowed everybody to sort of fit under one roof. And if they had a disagreement, whatever Daddy Trump said they went along with. That's what ended up happening. Now, as Trump starts to smell like a lame duck, everybody wants to shape the future of the movement and the way that they see fit. And there are obviously a lot of Mike Pence, kind of traditional conservatives that held their nose and stuck around for Donald Trump. And they want the party to kind of go back to how it used to be. There are people that are kind of new to the Republican movement that hate the old Republican Party and want it to be even more populist, more nationalists. They look more like a European kind of far right nationalist party. Then they're internecine fights about Israel and all kinds of other stuff. And so it's like a Game of Thrones situation. Now. All of them are fighting for control. I think that it's interesting that Mike Pence and that more traditional conservative group is trying to gather support and infrastructure. I'm skeptical that would work. I think the real fight is what we saw at America Fest, which was between basically kind of a MAGA establishment, like a hybrid of the old Republican Party and the new, with some even further right figures that want basically full nationalism closed borders, no more support of Israel, embracing conspiracy theories. And the fight to me seems to be on that turf.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right. I mean, as a reminder that as much as we are talking about politics here, we're talking about a moral moment. Right. There would be an opportunity here for the right leader to say this is not who we are. I mean, I think Don Bacon, for example, has sort of taken this posture that if this is what the party is becoming, he's not interested. If you are standing with anti Semites, then you do not represent the Republican Party that he wants to be a part of. I do think part of the challenge here is waiting for that next generation leader who's going to say let's leave this all behind to actually emerge.

[Narrator/Announcer]

I think that that is exactly what we looking for. And it may not even be a next generation. It could be an old Bernie Sanders was a next generation. So I think that someone to step forward with a clear moral voice saying this is what we stand for. Even if those of us that are considered on the left define moral leadership differently, there's no one standing up saying we don't believe in this, we don't believe in that. And as that emerges, because you start to hear rumblings of that when you see Nick Fuentes attacked right there at the gathering and the anti Semitism and racism attack right there at the gathering. So the rumblings are starting. If a leader emerges from there, that leader will be the one that will take on the successor of the Donald Trump fan club, not political movement. Because the problem with or J.D. vance or whoever they think is the next one in the fan club is they cannot do Elvis because they're not Elvis. This is just an Elvis moment and they cannot do Elvis. The blue suede shoes don't fit on J.D. vance.

[Alicia Menendez]

I will refrain from all the comments that come to mind. Tim Miller, Reverend Al Sharpton, thank you both so much for joining us today and this Sunday. Do not Miss Politics Nations 15th annual Revie Awards where Rev celebrates the best and the worst of politics in 2025 and gives awards to those who deserve it. That is Sunday at 5pm Eastern. When we return, the congresswoman who was arrested back in May for trying to conduct oversight at an ICE detention center. She was back at the scene of her arrest today. What she says she saw right after a very quick.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Tim Miller]

People are sick. People are coughing. The food situation continues to be horrible.

[Alicia Menendez]

These are human beings.

[Tim Miller]

These are people who are taken out of our communities and are being held there on your dimension. On the American taxpayers dime was described as a slaughterhouse in there by one of the detainees.

[Congresswoman LaMonica McIver]

When we left out of there, a detainee told us this is not the America that we dreamed of. Back in their countries. They thought they would be able to come here and have a better life. These are not people who committed crimes that our president, our lying president continues to say they are here on work visas, some work visas not even expired and they're in there on student visas literally inside of a jail with approval from this country to be here.

[Alicia Menendez]

Representatives Lamonica McIver and Rob Menendez of New Jersey sounding the alarm about the conditions inside the ICE facility Delaney hall in Newark. They visited this morning in the wake of the death of a detainee being held there, 41 year old John Wilson Brutus. The two Congress members were able to conduct their oversight visit after a judge blocked the Trump administration's months long attempt to prevent members of Congress from visiting ICE facilities. The Trump administration had attempted to prevent lawmakers from visiting ICE facilities just weeks after Representatives McIver and Menendez, who, full disclosure, is my brother, along with Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman and Newark Mayor Ros Baraka, attempted to visit Delaney hall back in May. What should have been a routine visit turned into a skirmish after the lawmakers attempted to intervene and prevent Mayor Baraka from being arrested. Congresswoman McIver was later charged with assault. Today was her first time returning to Delaney hall since that scuffle. Let's bring In Congresswoman LaMonica McIver, Democrat of New Jersey. Congresswoman, tell me why you decided to return to Delaney hall today.

[Congresswoman LaMonica McIver]

Well, thank you so much Alicia for having me on. We went there because as you mentioned, there was a death there, a 41 year old Mr. Brutus from Haiti died in 24 hours of being, you know, brought to that facility. And so we had a lot of questions. We wanted to know what was going on, what happened. And so we decided to return there along with many other complaints that we continue to receive about this detention center. Residents who tell me of the 10th congressional district that they cannot visit their loved ones, attorneys who tell me that they are having trouble speaking with their clients and the families who are inside of this detention center say they're not getting adequate food and the conditions of the facility. And so me and my colleagues decided to return there for another oversight visit.

[Alicia Menendez]

I want to read you what a local paper wrote about Mr. Brutus death inside that facility. Brutus was not in distress when he was being admitted to delayed. He had no medical history of cardiovascular issues. I said he died of natural causes. According to ice, witnesses said the ambulance taking Brutus to University Hospital in Newark was delayed for five minutes at the Delaney hall gate because a van transporting new detainees into the facility was allowed through first. In addition, ICE didn't inform the public of Brutus's death within two business days as is required by law. Which questions did you go in with? Which questions remain unanswered?

[Congresswoman LaMonica McIver]

Well, first of all, we went in asking questions about what was his medical emergency, how long did they wait to call emt, how fast did EMT come? Many of the questions that we got answered were very vague. They were not direct. It got to a point that one ICE representative was like, we're not going to talk about this anymore because it's an open investigation. And many of the questions that we were asking too were general questions. Questions about, hey, what is your process for contacting family members when a loved one is in distress, you know, experience a medical distress, you know, what do you do? They're like, oh, we called the family that night. Well, those answers that they gave us does not line up to what we've heard from the family and friends of Mr. Brutus. So definitely very concerning. Right. I'm looking forward to this investigation being, you know, completed. I know that the family has obtained lawyers and they should do so. You know, I think honestly they should have an independent autopsy as well because at the end of the day, you just cannot trust what is coming out of this dhs and you know, these ICE representatives, you can't trust what they're saying. And of course they're going to say, hey, we think he died from natural causes. A 41 year old healthy man who came there under no distress at all, with no medical condition, dies less than 24 hours of being in this facility. It's very, very concerning, Congresswoman.

[Alicia Menendez]

There is what happened to Mr. Brudus and there is what is happening to all of the detainees and their families inside Delaney Hall. What did you see with your own eyes? What did you hear with your own ears that you want all of us who do not have the same oversight capacity, you cannot just show up and get to see what is happening there. What do you want us to know about what's happening inside Delaney hall with our taxpayer dollars?

[Congresswoman LaMonica McIver]

Well, the one thing I want people to know is that this facility should be closed. We have seen time after time that this facility has had incidents even leading back a couple of months ago when they had an entire riot because detainees were not receiving food and detainees escaped from that location. And now fast forward months later, we see that they have a death that occurred in their facility and this facility should be closed. They should not be operating. I think the most hurtful part past me being traumatized of being back there, right, was the fact of Speaking to over 20 detainees today who told us one, they have no criminal record. Right? So we know everything that comes out of this president's mouth is a lie about their going after the most dangerous criminals. Too many of them picked up from immigration hearings, from going to court, meeting with immigration officials. They were then literally arrested and detained. Many of them on approved work visas, student visas that have not expired, have been literally detained and continue to be detained for doing nothing illegal. Many of them were going through the right process, the proper process to be in this country legally. And this, this DHS and this president is arresting folk for doing the right thing. And so I want people to know that. I don't want people to think that everyone in these facilities are hardcore criminals or rapists or murderers like this administration continues to lie about, because they are not. They are hard working folks who were here legally working hard, you know, going to school and literally kidnapped and arrested and behind bars and cages in this facility. Many of them, you know, talk to us about not getting a enough food, only having five minutes to eat, in some cases, getting food that was molded, that was spoiled, not having access to health care. Literally for a person to go to the doctor, Alicia, they have to fill out a request via paper or a tablet if you can do, if you have the ability to use a tablet. And they have to wait weeks, some of them still not able to see a doctor. I mean, just awful conditions. Women who told us that, you know, when they're on their menstrual cycle, they give them two pads, two sanitary napkins a day, Alicia. And if they want more, the officials ask them, why do you need more? You don't. You're not getting any more. What did you do with the two we gave you for the day? I mean, come on. How insane is that? These are the conditions that they are up against. They told us that they start feeding breakfast, Alicia, at 4:30am 4:30am A person has to wake up to go and eat breakfast. I mean, and then lunch is at 10, and then dinner may be at 4. Well, detainees told us the time shift every day. They don't know when they're going to eat. They're never on schedule. And so to hear these stories from these detainees, one man who was in there and his wife is serving in the United States Navy. I mean, these are the stories that we heard today was, quite frankly, heartbreaking to hear from these detainees. It is just wrong. And it's all about money. It's all about cruelty with this administration. Many of them have told us that this is like their third or fourth facility that they have been sent to. Many of them who have signed the voluntarily, voluntary deportation. You know, that you see Chris on commercials, you know, parading about like, hey, $3,000 if you go back willingly to your country. Well, they. They've been signed that for months, and still, they're still waiting to go back to their country. So it's. It's awful. Just awful. Awful circumstances, awful situation.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congresswoman Lamonica McIver, thank you for continuing to show up. Thank you for joining us today to tell us what you saw. We're going to sneak in a quick break. We'll be back with our panel right after then. Stay with us. I want to bring in immigration attorney Alan Orr. He is the former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association. Also joining us, senior national and political reporter Jacob Soboroff. Jacob Soboroff, I don't know if you heard the conversation I was having with the congresswoman about what it was she saw at Delaney hall in Newark. Does what you heard from her comport with what you have reported and seen in other detention facilities?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. It was an extraordinary conversation to hear the congresswoman. And what stuck out to me most is people who are living their quotidian lives, if those allegations are true, that have even active visas, but people that were taken from our society and put into these detention centers. It reminds me of the many people that I have met over the course of this year, including, but not limited to Narciso Barranco, the landscaper in Santa Ana, California, reminds me of Ani Lucia Lopez Baloza, the student that was taken on her way home from college for Thanksgiving to visit her parents. It reminds me of Norrie Santay Ramos, the AP honor student and track star from the Miguel Contreras Learning Complex here in la. We always said there were going to be more stories like the ones that made it onto the national news. And hearing the congresswoman talk about her trip into the facility in New Jersey today seems to be confirmation of that.

[Alicia Menendez]

I mean, Alan, all these people, their lives matter, their communities matter. When we talk about people in terms of numbers, it's easy to lose track of the real human cost of what is happening at the hands of the U.S. government. You heard us talking in the last segment about a death at Delaney Hall. You have Reuters reporting this about deaths in ICE custody. At least 30 people have died in ICE detention this year. That's according to agency notices. The total for 2025 is the highest level since 2004, according to ICE statistics. Your sense the Trump administration, have they done everything they could do to avoid those deaths, to make the conditions such that something like this would not happen?

[Tim Miller]

That would be a no.

[Narrator/Announcer]

And also that there were four deaths.

[Tim Miller]

Just last week, which is a record number since 2004. And these are choices.

[Narrator/Announcer]

We do not have to detain people.

[Tim Miller]

These are absolute positive choices. And you have to ask yourself why? And why the secrecy? And it's all about profit.

[Narrator/Announcer]

This is public money being funneled into private profit.

[Tim Miller]

And that's what is gaining the system of this immigration detention center. They do not have to be overcrowded.

[Narrator/Announcer]

They do not have to have individuals die there. We have stopped immigration programs for much.

[Tim Miller]

Less than one person being injured in the United States. We should also stop this mass detention and say, what is going on here with this profit? So it's time for the American people.

[Narrator/Announcer]

To ask for receipts, because all of.

[Tim Miller]

These things are a violation of the law. They're just supposed to be held there. It's not supposed to be punishment. If it was punishment, then the Eighth.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Amendment would apply and definitely every one.

[Tim Miller]

Of these detention facilities would be closed.

[Alicia Menendez]

Jacob I keep thinking about the moral arc of the universe. Earlier this month, the House passed a bill that would, among other things, allow unaccompanied minors to be strip searched. You reported on a moment in time when Americans watched what was happening to children being separated from from their parents. And Americans of all political stripes stood up and said, not in our name how is it possible that the cruelty, rather than subsiding is actually escalating?

[Tim Miller]

You know, I don't know if you watched Rachel last night, but I did. And the thing that stood out to me about what Rachel was talking about was sort of the increasing presence of people on the streets standing up to and pushing back on these policies. And it reminded me as you bring up the family separation policy of 2018, that the fact that it was a bipartisan condemnation of that policy, not even bipartisan, universal, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in the street. The pope spoke out at a time when the pope wasn't an English speaker from Chicago who knew these very immigrant communities like they were his own neighborhood. Because they are. And this is a different this is a different time. And I think we're seeing that shift happen in real time.

[Alicia Menendez]

Jacob Soboroff, Alan Orr, thank you both so much for joining me to talk about this important story. When we return, something joyful amid the administration's immigration crackdown. We're going to have that after a short break. As we head into the holidays, we want to remind you of the moments when communities gather to care for each other amid this administration's immigration crackdown and continued economic pressures like this weekend in Queens, New York. More than 100 people in Corona joined the magical Christmas toy distribution in a neighborhood where 56% of residents identify as Hispanic and 30% identify as Asian. Over the weekend, neighbors provided toys to children offer food resources for families that have been impacted by the rising costs of groceries. One of the organizations gave out about 300 ornaments and whistles to support the know your rights movement or Conoce Tuterechos to help everyone understand the legal rights that we all have regardless of immigration status. And take one more break. We'll be right back. Thank you for spending part of this Tuesday with us. We are so very grateful. A reminder, be sure to download this week's episode of the Best people podcast. Nicole's guest this week is an absolute favorite of viewers of this show, voting rights attorney Mark Elias. Just scan the QR code on your screen to listen. Now download wherever you get your podcasts. You can also watch Nicole's conversation with mark Elias on YouTube by scanning the Q QR code up on your screen right now. I will be back in one hour for the weeknight.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses. Bosses alone get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com Special offer terms apply.