“Off the island”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – “Off the Island” Release Date: July 15, 2025

Introduction

In the episode titled “Off the Island” of Deadline: White House, host Nicolle Wallace delves into the tumultuous political landscape shaped by the second Trump administration. Drawing from her extensive experience in political communications, Wallace facilitates in-depth discussions with key experts and newsmakers. The episode primarily focuses on the controversies surrounding the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files, the ensuing fallout within the MAGA movement, recent ICE raids affecting young athletes, and the economic ramifications of President Trump's imposed tariffs.

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1. Handling of the Jeffrey Epstein Files

The episode opens with a critical analysis of the Trump administration’s approach to the release and management of the Jeffrey Epstein files. The administration's reluctance to disclose these documents has fueled conspiracy theories and unrest among Trump’s supporters.

• Chris Hayes introduces the issue by highlighting Donald Trump's failure to mitigate the anger within his base following Attorney General Pam Bondi's memo dismissing conspiracy theories related to Epstein. Hayes notes Trump's strategy of deflecting blame onto Democrats without presenting evidence:

  “Trump turned to a familiar tactic... find some Democrats to blame.” [01:05]

• Donald Trump’s Defense of Pam Bondi: Trump publicly supports Bondi, stating,

  “We’re on one team MAGA and I don’t like what’s happening.” [02:20]

• MAGA Influencers’ Reaction: Influencers like Benny Johnson and Megyn Kelly question the administration's transparency, suggesting possible cover-ups and implicating powerful Democrats:

  “There is a scandal that's being covered up and it's at his Trump's direction.” – Megyn Kelly [03:52]

Key Discussions:

• Glenn Thrush discusses the internal conflicts within the DOJ and FBI, emphasizing the strained relationships between Bondi and Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino. He remarks on the implications of these tensions for the administration’s stability:

  “Pam Bondi has, in this battle, prevailed.” [07:58]

• Claire McCaskill and Julie Brown critique the administration's handling of the Epstein files, arguing that the lack of transparency undermines public trust and hampers justice for the victims.

Notable Quotes:

• David French, New York Times:

  “The Epstein story mattered so much in MAGA circles because it was a key element in their indictment of America's so-called ruling class.” [06:45]

• Julie Brown:

  “Their engine of the MAGA movement has run on propaganda. It is run on falsehoods with no evidence.” [07:13]

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2. Fallout Within the MAGA Movement

The controversy over the Epstein files has led to significant fractures within the MAGA base, challenging Trump’s influence over his supporters.

• Glenn Thrush analyzes the potential loss of support within the MAGA coalition, suggesting that even a minor defection could have substantial electoral consequences:

  “For this to go away, you're going to lose 10% of the MAGA movement.” [14:37]

• Claire McCaskill highlights the bipartisan efforts to investigate the Epstein files, emphasizing the necessity for transparency to restore public trust:

  “We are in a very extreme period of conspiracy theory and hysteria over this thing.” [52:58]

Key Discussions:

• Mark Elias posits that Trump's admission of the existence of Epstein files—albeit framed as Democrat forgeries—signals a potential unraveling of his narrative:

  “He is clearly laying the predicate that he is afraid that these files are going to see the light of day.” [63:15]

• Senator Sheldon Whitehouse (introduced later in the episode) expresses alarm over DOJ nominee Emil Bove’s actions, drawing parallels to the Epstein file controversy and its implications for the rule of law.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Elias:

  “This suggests likely that they are unflattering for him and potentially embarrassing to him or to people close to him.” [63:28]

• Julie Brown:

  “Donald Trump has debased the rule of law to the point that it is now not about the law and respect for the law. It's just about loyalty to him.” [43:52]

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3. ICE Raids Impacting Young Athletes

A poignant segment features a firsthand account of ICE agents targeting young baseball players in Manhattan's Upper West Side, highlighting the human cost of stringent immigration policies.

• Yuman Wilder, founder of Harlem Baseball Hitting Academy, recounts how ICE agents approached his players during practice, prompting him to intervene by invoking their Fifth Amendment rights:

  “As a person who's supervising them, I'm just going to have them implement their Fifth Amendment.” [69:43]

• Kevin Blackistone, a sports columnist, echoes Wilder’s concerns, emphasizing the psychological trauma inflicted on the children and the community by such raids:

  “We have to have people like him go out and tell people and people who understand the Constitution, who can defend people's Fourth Amendment right.” [77:25]

Key Discussions:

• The episode explores the broader implications of ICE’s aggressive tactics on community trust and the safety of young athletes, urging educational initiatives to empower individuals with knowledge of their constitutional rights.

Notable Quotes:

• Yuman Wilder:

  “If it can happen on the Upper West Side of 72nd street, it can happen to anybody.” [72:00]

• Jamie Raskin:

  “It's dangerous to public health and safety not to release the names publicly.” [61:49]

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4. Economic Impact of Trump’s Imposed Tariffs

The discussion shifts to the economic consequences of President Trump’s tariff policies, drawing historical parallels to the Smoot-Hawley Tariff of 1930.

• David Frum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, explains how the current tariffs surpass historical rates, adversely affecting American consumers, especially the working and middle classes:

  “Since Trump came into office, the average effective U.S. tariff rate has soared to 16.6% from 2.5%.” [85:50]

• Nicole Wallace elaborates on the disproportionate burden tariffs place on lower-income populations, contrasting it with limited tax cuts benefiting wealthier individuals:

  “There's a tariff on the table, there's a tariff on the knife, there's a tariff on the fork... The poorer you are, the more you spend on goods.” [86:33]

Key Discussions:

• The segment critiques the administration’s fiscal strategy, illustrating how tariffs serve as hidden taxes that exacerbate economic inequality and strain international relations.

Notable Quotes:

• Nicole Wallace:

  “It falls more heavily on people who consume goods and services. The richer you are, the more of your income you spend on services and they're tariff-free.” [86:33]

• David Frum:

  “Trump dialed back the tariff talk during the period when he's trying to get as big fiscal bill through Congress.” [88:46]

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5. Confirmation of DOJ and FBI Officials Amidst Controversy

The episode includes a critical examination of the Senate Judiciary Committee’s handling of DOJ nominee Emil Bove, highlighting concerns over his commitment to the rule of law.

• Senator Sheldon Whitehouse (Moderated by Chris Hayes) expresses deep reservations about Emil Bove’s nomination, citing instances of misconduct and threats against judicial processes:

  “When you are the Department of Justice and you are putting together fake criminal cases... that is way out of bounds.” [35:04]

• Julie Brown underscores the gravity of confirming officials who undermine legal integrity, equating it to eroding the foundations of a democratic society:

  “You don't want to hold on to your second Amendment right. And that's to your old God. But we're willing to take rights from other people.” [83:28]

Key Discussions:

• The conversation underscores the potential long-term damage to institutional trust and the separation of powers if such officials are confirmed without rigorous scrutiny.

Notable Quotes:

• David Jolly:

  “The nominee is sort of Trump's legal goon squad.” [35:04]

• Claire McCaskill:

  “This is a scandal that has provided a lot of energy for the Trump movement.” [07:13]

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Conclusion

The “Off the Island” episode of Deadline: White House presents a comprehensive examination of the second Trump administration’s controversies, emphasizing the intertwining of political maneuvers, public trust, and policy impacts. Through insightful discussions with journalists, political analysts, and affected individuals, the episode highlights the deepening fractures within political movements, the human toll of aggressive immigration enforcement, and the economic strains of protectionist policies. Nicolle Wallace effectively navigates these complex issues, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the current political climate.

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Notable Quotes Compilation

• "We’re on one team MAGA and I don’t like what’s happening." – Donald Trump [02:20]
• "The Epstein story mattered so much in MAGA circles because it was a key element in their indictment of America's so-called ruling class." – David French, NY Times [06:45]
• "Their engine of the MAGA movement has run on propaganda. It is run on falsehoods with no evidence." – Julie Brown [07:13]
• "If it can happen on the Upper West Side of 72nd street, it can happen to anybody." – Yuman Wilder [72:00]
• "Since Trump came into office, the average effective U.S. tariff rate has soared to 16.6% from 2.5%." – David Frum [85:50]
• "The nominee is sort of Trump's legal goon squad." – David Jolly [35:04]
• "It falls more heavily on people who consume goods and services. The richer you are, the more of your income you spend on services and they're tariff-free." – Nicole Wallace [86:33]

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Key Takeaways

• The Trump administration's opaque handling of the Epstein files has sown distrust and sparked internal conflicts within the DOJ and FBI.
• The MAGA movement faces emerging fractures as prominent supporters question leadership and narratives, potentially impacting future elections.
• Aggressive ICE raids target unsuspecting communities, highlighting systemic issues in immigration enforcement and its societal repercussions.
• Trump's tariff policies emulate historical protectionism, disproportionately affecting the lower and middle classes while straining international relations.
• The nomination of DOJ officials amid controversies threatens the integrity of the judicial system and underscores the erosion of democratic norms.

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This summary captures the critical discussions and insights from the “Off the Island” episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Chris Hayes]

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Chris Hayes]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the East. A conspiracy theory about a dead sex criminal now threatens to do at a violent insurrection. 34 felony convictions, calling U.S. soldiers, quote, losers and suckers and a litany of broken promises from the economy to foreign policy could not drive a wedge of fury and betrayal between the MAGA political movement and its dear leader, Donald Trump. Donald Trump so far has failed to tamp down the rage from his own supporters after Attorney General Pam Bondi put out a memo rejecting conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein, fueled largely by Bondi's closest colleagues, a director and deputy director of the FBI. Facing backlash from the most devoted members of Trump's base and a nasty public feud between his hand picked deputy FBI director and and his hand picked Attorney General, Trump turned to a familiar tactic project and inexplicably and without evidence, find some Democrats to blame. In a post, Trump claimed that the Epstein files were written by Democrats. Again, there's no evidence that that's true, and it's worth pointing out Epstein died in 2019 when Donald Trump was president. Trump also defended his Attorney General Pam Bondi from attacks, adding this quote, we're on one team MAGA and I don't like what's happening, end quote. But many of Trump's allies and supporters aren't buying that. Take a listen to MAGA influencer Benny Johnson. By admitting that the Epstein files are real and have been written and that you've read them and you don't like their contents and they were written by your enemies.

[Claire McCaskill]

Doesn'T make the most compelling.

[Chris Hayes]

Case as far as I'm concerned. Holy Moly. Holy Moly's right And Megyn Kelly goes even farther than that. She's suggesting that there was a possibility that, quote, there is a scandal that's being covered up and it's at his Trump's direction. Wow. Holy moly again. But perhaps nothing sums up the rage that members of the MAGA base feel right now than this moment. It took place at the Turning Point conference on Friday.

[Glenn Thrush]

How many of you are satisfied?

[Chris Hayes]

You can. You can clap.

[Glenn Thrush]

Satisfied with the results of the Epstein investigation?

[Chris Hayes]

Clap. Okay, I told you to clap. You guys aren't listening.

[Glenn Thrush]

I'm not going to grade you on a curve.

[Julie Brown]

So I was going to get to that.

[Glenn Thrush]

How many of you are not satisfied with the results of the investigation?

[Chris Hayes]

It looks like it's going to be. And now. And now. This is like the.

[Glenn Thrush]

Who's going to be off the island first?

[Chris Hayes]

Right? This is like this.

[Glenn Thrush]

Who's going to be voted off the island first?

[Chris Hayes]

Who is going to be voted off the island first? Inquiring minds want to know. Will it be Dan Bongino? He said this about the Epstein files two years ago.

[Claire McCaskill]

That Jeffrey Epstein story is a big deal. Please do not let that story go.

[Chris Hayes]

Okay, we won't. Or will it be Pam Bondi who demanded the release of the files? Watch. First of all, it should have come out a long time ago. Professor Dershowitz wanted it out.

[Julie Brown]

And by the way, he is one.

[Chris Hayes]

Of the best attorneys in this country.

[Julie Brown]

I know him.

[Chris Hayes]

I know his wife. That's a great family. And they've been dragged through hell on this. I want to know why AG Garland and the Justice Department are so quiet on this tonight. You know, they're out there labeling parents domestic terrorists, yet they're saying nothing about this. And these documents were so slow to come out. We agree. Pam Bondi. But what about Kash Patel, who said that the release of the Epstein file should be a day one priority for the second Trump presidency? Who has Jeffrey Epstein's black book? Black book, FBI.

[Nicole Wallace]

But who that is?

[Mark Elias]

I mean, there's.

[Glenn Thrush]

Oh, that's under direct control of the Director of the FBI. And to me, that's a thing. I think President Trump should run on, on day one, roll out the black book.

[Chris Hayes]

This is literally the guy who now has that job, the director of the FBI. Every single one of those people believed, repeated, promoted and stoked this conspiracy theory about the Jeffrey Epstein files to Trump's base, which was already primed to distrust and fear and hate and antagonize people in power. David French of the New York Times writes this, quote, the Epstein story mattered so much in MAGA circles because it was a key element in their indictment of America's so called ruling class. Trump's appeal to the Republican base isn't just rooted in his supporters extraordinary affection for the man. It is also rooted in their almost indescribably dark view of the American government. Why are they also keen to burn it all down? Well, if you believe your government is populated by people so depraved that they'd participate in and cover up the systematic sexual abuse of children, then you wouldn't just want them out of office, you'd want them prosecuted and imprisoned, maybe even executed. And you'd want all the power you'd need to make that happen. Perhaps Dan Bongino sums up this worldview best.

[Claire McCaskill]

This isn't about Epstein or 911 or JFK or RFK.

[Glenn Thrush]

It is, but it isn't. It's about a bigger thing. If you're lying about that, you're lying about everything.

[Chris Hayes]

I hate to say it. We agree with you, Mr. Bongino. Donald Trump suddenly and dramatically at odds with the MAGA movement over conspiracy theory, has allies furthered is where we begin today. New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush is here. Also joining us, investigative reporter for the Miami Herald and author of Perversion of Justice, the Jeffrey Epstein Story. Julie Brown joins us. And with us for the hour, former Democratic senator, MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill. So, Glenn Thresh, bring me up to speed. I mean, far from tamping this down, Trump seems to have antagonized and fanned the flames at this scandal. Where are we today?

[Glenn Thrush]

Where are we today? It's not where are we today Is where is Dan Bongino today? Where in the world is Dan Bongino?

[Chris Hayes]

Did he go to work today?

[Glenn Thrush]

Called around today? We're not sure. I don't think so. It's entirely possible he may have popped up to work. And can I just say, you know, he is not like the greeter at a Home Depot. He is the Deputy Director of the FBI. He runs the day to day operations of the nation's fundamental law enforcement institution. So in a world in which, in a world in which the Bureau is functioning in a normal way, not having your director in place for a period now and again, we're also uncertain the duration of his absence. We believe from our reporting that he has not been at the FBI headquarters since this blowup he had with Pam Bondi at the White House last Wednesday. We certainly know that he was not in the office on Friday. So I think we're dealing with a situation here in which Bongino, who might have had some leverage in his face off against Bondi, appears to have squandered it. Getting a sense that Trump himself is a little annoyed with him. Susie Wiles, Trump's chief of staff, who is super close to Bondi, is very annoyed with him, felt that he wasn't a team player. So in terms of the internals on this, in the very narrow, you know, who gets to stay on the island, I think Bondi has, in this battle prevailed. But there's another reason why Bondi has an advantage over Bongino in this fight. And it actually, I think gets to the root of what's going on on a deeper level in this story, and that is that Donald Trump is a lame duck president. And all of these people who are criticizing him at the Turning Point conference, your Benny Johnsons, your Megyn Kellys, your Charlie Kirks, are seeing a world in which Donald Trump is not on the stage. They're seeing beyond him. We've got midterms coming up. The gravitational pull of his election is dissipating. And I think people, this is a transactional world and they're behaving in a transactional fashion. So I think one of the reasons why Bandi, in the very narrow sense, prevailed over Bongino is super simple. If you get rid of your attorney general, you've got to get another one confirmed in the Senate. If you get rid of your deputy director of the FBI, you can just replace them.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, I kind of buy that, Glenn, but they're pushing Bove through. I mean, a whistleblower said that. He said f the courts. I mean, I don't think Trump is suddenly afraid that he can't get terribly incompetent people through the Republican led Senate. What is, what is the calculation about the political price they're paying when the story now that even bursts into mainstream media is that MAGA is in full revolt?

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, one thing, one thing though, on the Beauvais thing, Nicole, is remember, he's off ramping out of the administration. He's changing branches. You know, this is an ejection. He is, he's leaving the Justice Department. Right. So, and I think some of the resistance, Bove, by the way, has gotten the nod, seems to be the nod from Thom Tillis on the committee. There's a sense that Bovet might have some trouble on the floor. But I think there is a general sense, particularly with this news last week that Joni Ernst was considering not running that The Senate is going to become a more challenging environment. And getting, but getting to your point about the Epstein files, you know, we now have a situation in which the Epstein files for the right would become a confirmation issue for whoever next comes up the pike in terms of DOJ or any other position in the administration. So, yes, I think this full revolt by MAGA creates all kinds of complications. And frankly, it's the kind of thing that you see going deeper into the second term of presidents. You see the party splintering and seeking a path forward beyond the current president. And we don't tend to think of that with Trump. And I suspect you're going to start hearing him talk, you're going to start hearing Bannon and others referring to the possibility of him running again in 2028. But there's a, I think this is the first cool breeze blowing into the White House that gives people an indication of what of a battle for the soul of, of the Trump movement when Trump is off the stage.

[Chris Hayes]

Glenn, one more question. I mean, Megyn Kelly is a lot of things, but stupid and careless are not two of them. When she accuses Trump of directing a cover up, what evidence does she provide for that accusation?

[Glenn Thrush]

She didn't really provide any evidence. But here's what I will tell you, and we've reported on this in dozens of stories, the traditional institutional protections for the department that existed in prior administrations, even in the first Trump administration, between the West Wing, the president and the senior leadership of the Department of Justice simply do not exist. Bondi was on Trump's payroll. She benefited financially to the tune of 2 to 3 million dollars when Truth Social went public. She has been very loyal. She invited him into the department. Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general who is running the department, is the deputy attorney general. You have Stephen Miller in the White House and other West Wing aides who are directing immigration policy. So the normal barriers that exist between a president and senior leadership at the Department of Justice simply do not exist. And the truth of the matter is, if you look at this fiasco, all of the key players, Bongino, Patel, Bondi, Blanch have been in direct communication with the president, which is extraordinary. And it seems to indicate, while I have no evidence that what Megyn Kelly is discussing is true, it is generally speaking true that the president essentially has untrammeled access to the senior leadership of the department.

[Chris Hayes]

Claire McCaskill, let me show you what Steve Bannon says. This will result in politically speaking.

[Glenn Thrush]

For this to go away, you're going to lose 10% of the MAGA movement. If we lose 10% of the MAGA movement right now, we ain't. We're going to lose 40 seats in 26. We're going to lose the President.

[Mark Elias]

You don't even have to steal it.

[Glenn Thrush]

Which they're going to try to do in 28, because they're going to sit there and they go. They've disheartened the hardest core populous nationals.

[Chris Hayes]

That have always been who governs us. I mean, Claire, it can happen to a nicer group, but the political analysis may be spot on. What do you think?

[Julie Brown]

Yeah, it probably is. You know, this is what happens when you create a monster and the monster eats you. And what these guys have not yet figured out is there's a difference between propaganda and evidence. And they. Their. Their engine of the MAGA movement has run on propaganda. It is run on falsehoods with no evidence. For example, the 2020 election, how many different court cases were there? To this day, there's been no evidence presented anywhere in a court of law that would back up the widely held firm belief, the MAGA movement has, that somehow there were unlawful activities surrounding the 2020 election. Well, this is no different. And here's the problem Trump has. I think he would throw Pam Bondi under the bus in a heartbeat. But if he does, then the next attorney general has to deal with the Epstein files. And what are you going to do? A, there's no evidence that what they've all said happened, happened. And B, I think deep down, Trump doesn't want all the information released because I think he was. You know, I'm not saying he did anything illegal. I'm saying he was close to the fire. He was. And somebody said over the weekend there are more pictures of Donald Trump with Jeffrey Epstein than there are athletes in the NCAA by multiples. So the bottom line is he wants this to go away. Now. It's like he wants you to use it when it helps you politically, he wants it to go away when it hurts you politically. And I think Steve Bannon is right. I don't think this is going to go away. I think the only thing they could do is to actually do some kind of mea culpa and explain why this was all BS and why there's no there there, and actually explain what's in the files and what isn't in the files.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, Julie, jump in. Is it all bs? I mean, again, I'll leave the conspiracies to maga, but this is what Trump said about Jeffrey Epstein. Quote, this is from A Washington post article in 2019, quote, I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. Donald Trump told New York magazine in 02 for a story headlined, Jeffrey Epstein, international money man of mystery. Quot He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it. Jeffrey enjoys his social life, end quote. That wasn't Merrick Garland. That wasn't Hillary Clinton. That was Donald Trump. That was Donald Trump in his own words, talking about Jeffrey Epstein. What is the relationship and what is in the investigative materials about Trump and Epstein?

[Yuman Wilder]

Well, we don't really know. And that's part of the problem all along here is that the FBI, the Justice Department, the courts, a lot of other government agencies have kept all these things under wraps for so long, even when more women, more victims have come forward to say what was happening. More victims were interviewed by the FBI in recent years. And we know that there are people that helped Epstein. He could not have run this operation by himself. He didn't do anything on his own. He had a staff to do everything for him. So there are obviously some people that helped him. And I'm sure that the Justice Department, the FBI has looked at some of these people, and their names are included in those files. Whether Donald Trump, how involved he was, we really don't know. And, and up until now, to be honest with you, I've been pretty emphatic on social media pointing out that there has been no evidence that Trump, you know, really was even still friends with Epstein in his later years. But I think that this, this whole episode, in the way it was handled, raises questions about, you know, how connected Trump was and how connected maybe some of his friends might have been or other powerful people that he perhaps is either friends or does business with. And I think all these are fair questions to ask of our government because this is a case that affected hundreds, if not, you know, almost a thousand women. And how was he able to do that? I think sometimes we lose sight of the victims here. This statement that was put out by the Justice Department, I thought, didn't do enough to address what the victims must be going through here because they want justice.

[Chris Hayes]

It's such a good and important reminder that at the bottom of a big political brouhaha are real victims whose lives continue to be shape and shattered by Jeffrey Epstein and his enablers. I'm ask all of you to stick around. We'll have that conversation on the other side of a short break. Also ahead for us, Congressman Jamie Raskin will join us on the Jeffrey Epstein MAGA Trump fallout and why this fracture feels different to him as well than others. Democrats are taking notice and making plans. Plus, Donald Trump's preferred attorney MAGA loyalists, as we've been discussing, a male Beauvais is poised to find himself confirmed to a lifetime judicial post. One senator who hopes to make sure that doesn't happen, Sheldon Whitehouse will join us. Ahead on what we're still learning about Boba's plans to defy the courts on day one. And later in the broadcast, another low point for our country, showing what it's like right now, life under Trump 2.0 and the endlessness of the cruelty and ice raid at a Little League ball field in New York City. One of the coaches who protected his players will join us on what that's like. We'll get to all that and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.

[Julie Brown]

We've never experienced a moment like this.

[Chris Hayes]

In our country and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we gonna be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies.

[Julie Brown]

You don't need to be hopeless.

[Chris Hayes]

We have our voices and I will continue using mine.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access. Add free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Chris Hayes]

Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah, yeah, I would. All right. I guess I would.

[Glenn Thrush]

I think that less so because, you know, you don' you don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there, because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world. But I think I would.

[Chris Hayes]

We're back with Glenn, Julie and Claire. So, Julie, what are we. Pam Bondi was asked about a list, a client list. Again, none of US Actually knows for sure if that exists. It seems less likely than what Trump was asked about, which is the files that make up an investigation. Can you talk about all the people that have been ensnared along the way? Trump had someone in his cabinet 1.0 that was sort of wrapped up tangentially in pieces of the Epstein investigation. Jeffrey Epstein died in jail while Trump was president. I mean, what is behind the conspiracy in terms of what we know about the actual thing they're looking for, the investigative files?

[Yuman Wilder]

Well, first of all, I don't think that Jeffrey Epstein probably had a piece of paper with the list of people that he was working with, doing his sex trafficking with. I think it's more likely that he had, you know, that he had people that were helping him that were involved, but that he didn't write down. He wasn't prolific with re with computers, for example. He had other people do a lot of his computer work for him. But that doesn't mean that there aren't some very powerful people and names that are associated with this case. The Miami Herald went to court to unseal a lot of court documents, and we were successful. It took many, many years, but we were able to get copies of depositions where certain public figures were named at the time. Now, there was really one person that identified some of these people, and that was Virginia Giuffre. And unfortunately, she has passed away recently. She was the main witness for accusing some of these men. So, you know, it's going to be very tough. We don't really know who beyond her was willing to be brave enough to name some of these powerful people, but surely there was some other evidence that they probably found in his safes or in his computers that might be indicators also, really, even more importantly, there's probably a money trail. You know, as they say, always follow the money. He got paid a lot of money from some very powerful men, and there's no real evidence that he did a whole lot of work for that money, you know, or that he was even qualified to do some of the financial dealings that these men claim that they gave him all this money for. So the money trail is worth looking at. And in some ways that could be even more effective at trying to, you know, identify people who were involved in his sex trafficking operation.

[Chris Hayes]

Glenn Thrush, thought exercise for you. I mean, the last time we covered a sex scandal that touched Donald Trump, I think it was probably the release of the dossier or the publication of the dossier, and he lost his mind, and he's still Trying to prosecute and punish the people that were anywhere near that. Why, when Megyn Kelly accuses Trump, as she did of directing Pam Bondi in not releasing the Epstein files, is it just that he confidently thinks he can squash a scandal now or why is his reaction so different to this one?

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, I think because the previous scandals, you know, if you're looking at his civil suit with Gene Carroll, for instance, the right defended him in these cases. This was, you know, particularly when he was on the ballot. So they had skin in the game in terms of defending him. This is a different situation. This is a scandal that has provided a lot of energy for the Trump movement. Look, it's a really weird rallying cry for Trump supporters to be obsessed with the Epstein conspiracy theories. Why, you know, why has this thing blossomed? And the reasonand it's articulated in the David French piece is because a lot of the same energy, the sense that there's a dark conspiracy going on, a cabal. But now you have a situation, I think, in which Trump himself is viewed as the establishment, I think to some extent. And what's happened over the past week is when Trump, Trump and company ceased to be the outsiders and are now being regarded by their own movement as the establishment and being seen as defending the establishment. So I think that is a pretty significant difference and I think that's why he's now incurring their wrath.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, I mean, and Claire, it's interesting that it isn't the betrayal about the economy. Right. He says he runs in front of melting meat and food products at Bedminster as a candid by the transition. He says, oh no. Oh actually everything is going to go up and no one loses their mind inside MAGA over that. But this is how Charlie Kirk describes the political fallout from the Epstein scandal. Quote, the excitement I saw among younger voters could be diffused, said Charlie Kirk, a 31 year old founder of Turning Point USA. He said he likens it to air out of a balloon. Quote, do I think it's the end of maga? No, I never said that. Do I think the extra 10 to 15% of less inclined to vote bros. I can't believe they use that word amongst themselves. Bros that are trading crypto and wake up at 2pm every day. Do I think they're going to be like, screw it? Yeah, that's a huge risk. So Charlie Kirk predicting that, quote, 10 to 15% of low propensity voters who he either lumps in with or describes as crypto bros who wake up at 2pm they sound fun? Are out out of the MAGA movement that seems of tectonic political import.

[Julie Brown]

Yeah. I mean, one of the things we've talked about a lot on your program is the 25 to 30% of America that is all in for Donald Trump, no matter what they see, what he wants them to see, and they refuse to look at what's right in front of their faces. Whether that's him igniting wars and failing to calm wars all across the globe, or whether it's a situation where prices are going up and they're paying the money for the tariffs, as everyone said they would, including Kamala Harris, or whether it's the Epstein files. I think shaking some of that loose is really, really damaging to the Trump movement. He needs that very support, 25 to 30%, because he's got more than that who really, really dislike him. And the folks in the middle are certainly going to be impacted by the prices, the economy, and the fact that he's failed at keeping any kind of peace in the world.

[Yuman Wilder]

So.

[Julie Brown]

And listen here. I actually believe the Biden doj, if there was clear evidence in those files, they went after a sitting US Senator who was a Democrat and put him in prison.

[Chris Hayes]

Okay?

[Julie Brown]

That was the Biden doj. If the evidence was there to convict people of crimes, I think we would have seen more of it by now. I'm sure there's stuff there that looks really bad for a lot of people. And I got no problem if the victims want to come forward and out all of these people that did these terrible things to them. But there is obviously a disconnect between the evidence that is present in these files, because I don't think anything would have held the Biden administration back from going after powerful people because clearly they didn't hesitate to go after one of their own.

[Chris Hayes]

Julie, what is the sort of state of either trauma or anxiety or re. Trauma for the victims in watching this story unfurl?

[Yuman Wilder]

Oh, I can't even imagine. I don't even, to be honest, if you want to think about it, because I feel their pain. It's just been one. They've been failed multiple, multiple times by our government, by the lawyers in these cases. In some cases, the lawyers who represented them, their own families. I mean, this has been one trauma after another for them. And I think it's going to be very, you know, to what Claire said. I think it would be very hard to convict anybody based on the testimony of some of these victims, only because it's been so long and they've been through so much their memories have faded. And they really, at this point, don't want to go through it all again just to watch it, you know, possibly end in failure. But, but I will again say I still think that there's a way to go after these people through either money channels or other, other means. As I said, follow the money. Look at these banks. These banks all settled huge multimillion dollar settlements. And there's a reason for that. They were, they were getting some of this money through these accounts. So whether the Biden administration looked at that, we don't know. I think it's possible that's a new avenue that they just did not pursue.

[Chris Hayes]

That's so interesting. We'll stay on top of it. Glenn Thresh and Julie Brown, thank you so much for starting us off today. Claire sticks around a little bit longer with us. Up next, are Republicans in the Senate about to confirm a man to a lifetime position on the federal court even though there is new and overwhelming evidence that he plans on openly defying the rule of law in our country? Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse will be here. Help us answer that question. Next.

[David Jolly]

We have an individual here who is here seeking confirmation to one of the highest judicial offices in the land. I'm asking quite legitimate questions about potential misconduct in office. And the fact that I can't get anything resembling a straight answer in the circumstances that we're in right now, I think is signals a really bad moment for this committee and I hope we can reconsider.

[Chris Hayes]

As top Trump DOJ official Emil Bove hurdles toward a confirmation vote for a lifetime position as a federal appeals court judge, the process has been filled with a, a whole lot of that is called out right there dramatically by Senator Sheldon Whitehouse non answers and a possible low point on crucial questions when asked by senators and written questions whether or not Donald Trump could run for a third term as president, something that's clearly unconstitutional. Bobay refused to rule it out. He wouldn't denounce the January 6th attack on the US Capitol when given the chance to do so. And the evidence mounting against Bobay's ability to uphold the rule of law from inside the department doesn't stop there. The Senate Judiciary Committee was handed a trove of documents last week corroborating the whistleblower's allegation that Bove told DOJ lawyers to consider telling the courts. And this is a quote f you and to defy judges orders. It is the kind of damning and corroborating evidence our next guest says lawyers dream about joining our Conversation is Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island. He is of course on the Senate Judiciary Committee. Thank you so much for joining us. Senator, can you hear me?

[David Jolly]

Yep, I hear you. Well, sorry.

[Chris Hayes]

Oh, that's okay. Senator, take me through. Yeah, I got you. Take me through your degree of alarm about the nominee first and then we'll deal with the process.

[David Jolly]

So the nominee is sort of Trump's legal goon squad. And just in case he wasn't enough on the Trump goon squad, when he was his personal lawyer, you then saw him come into the Department of Justice and he was thick in the middle of the slippery deal with Eric Adams, which had to be undone by a judge because it was so improper. And he was deep into the slippery deal with the D.C. u.S. Attorney creating a fake or at least attempting to create a fake criminal case so they could use the fake criminal case to seize money that was going to climate related organizations that they wanted to stop after the cow had left the barn. So they had to come up with this fake criminal case. When you are the Department of Justice and you are putting together fake criminal cases in order to help somebody seize money, that is way out of bounds.

[Chris Hayes]

What seems to be new is the whistleblower account comes with receipts. And this is someone who defended Trump's immigration policies during Trump 1.0. Bobay hasn't clashed with the whistleblower who is any semblance of sort of the deep state phantom that MAGA likes to create. Just talk about all the evidence he provided the committee.

[David Jolly]

I mean, this is the kind of corroboration of a witness statement that a prosecutor loves to see. It's the kind of corroboration that brings like defense counsel in to start talking about a plea. The major points of this guy were that there was complete dysfunction between DHS and DOJ as they tried to figure out how to get around what they were doing, being illegal and having to answer in court in front of Judge Boasberg. And that in doing so it made the line lawyers who were going to have to appear in court so nervous that they were talking about contempt and sanctions and that they were actually making sidebar comments about this nominee. Samuel Bovey's comment that there may come a point if the judges keep trying to apply the law to us, that we just have to tell the courts Fu. That was actually referenced in real time that evening by lawyers who'd been in the room with him. So clearly that had been said in addition to all the rest of it. The other interesting thing is that the Thing this guy got fired for is that he truthfully told the judge that a deportation had happened due to an administrative error. And if you look back through his emails, you see how that argument is developed with all of the other lawyers on the chain. It is part of their strategy to confess that error in order to try to move on past that and make their best honest case. So the fact that he gets fired for that, he had not gone rogue. This was the plan.

[Chris Hayes]

Senator, there's an echo in the sound of alarm that you are sounding publicly in the non phased expression is the best, most generous word I can used to describe Senator Grassley's face. Someone who used to care about the character of the judiciary, albeit from a very, very conservative ideological standpoint, but someone who maybe a decade ago might have been moved by corroborating evidence like what you're describing. And I hear an echo to the warning Judge Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson offered about losing our democracy. What are you feeling right now when you see the caliber of people Trump is nominating for debate bench and the Republicans willingness, seeming willingness to confirm people like that?

[David Jolly]

Yeah, well, to the process point, Chairman Grassley opened his remarks by pointing out that we had to respect the deliberate deliberative process privilege and attorney client privilege, other executive privilege privileges with respect to this nominee. In point of fact, Congress has never recognized those as limitations on our oversight. So that was kind of a stunning breach of what has always been Congress's position. It also was an open invitation to the witness to not answer questions. And he was like a mob witness after that. I don't recall. That would be inappropriate for me to answer. I don't recall his answer to whether or not he had actually said we're going to have to tell courts fu if they continue to interfere with our deportation program. Was. I don't recall. Oh, come on.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, like I might have. I might not have. Maybe. Maybe it's insane.

[David Jolly]

And the fact that the institution of the Senate Judiciary Committee has gotten to a point where it's no longer expecting witnesses to tell the truth. It's not even expecting them to actually assert the privilege. Just hand waving about how something might be inappropriate to say. There are actually rules for how you assert privileges and Chairman Grassley didn't even require the assertion, let alone the rules.

[Chris Hayes]

An unbelievable moment. Senator, we'll continue to watch this with your help. Thank you so much for joining us today to talk about it.

[David Jolly]

Thank you, Nicole.

[Chris Hayes]

Claire McCaskill weigh in on the other side of a very short break. Don't go Anywhere. We're back with Claire. Claire, if you put the two stories together, they, they Trump supporters in the media and among his most fervent grassroots supporter in the base of maga, are about to walk over something for which there's no evidence. But this thing for which there's lots of evidence, including from lifelong conservative lawyers like Danielle Sassoon. It's a shrug. And no political impact to supporting Emile Beauvais. What gives?

[Julie Brown]

Well, he has Trump has debased the rule of law to the point that it is now not about the law and respect for the law. It's just about loyalty to him. And frankly, you know, I can't decide who disgusts me more, Emil Vauve, Donald Trump or Chuck Grassley. I mean, what happened to this guy? I worked with Chuck Grassley. We worked on things together. We saw some things the same way, especially like, for example, protection of the inspectors general, the independent watchdogs of government. He was a big believer in making sure that they were protected from executive overreach and that they could maintain their independence. And look at him now. I mean, here he is, I don't, he's, I think, the oldest guy in the Senate. He's 90 something, I think, and he's chairman of the Judiciary Committee. And he is going to go down in history as a guy who let someone join a court that told lawyers in the Justice Department to tell the courts to F you. I mean, I don't know how we got to that point. And what about the rest of the Republican senators? Are they all going to vote for this guy? I mean, I know I said that about Pete Hexif. I know I said that about Cash Patel. I know I said that about a bunch of the incompetents that are running the government. But this really is different because it is a lifetime appointment and it is someone who has shown in no uncertain terms that he will instruct people in the Justice Department to absolutely ignore the law to achieve the political outcomes that the president wants to achieve. That's not the United States of America. That's a banana republic.

[Chris Hayes]

It's also not Trump 1.0. I mean, this is an issue on which they have all the political cover they need with donors. I mean, they've got the Wall Street Journal editorial board with a thumbs down on Bobay calling him a smash mouth politician. And they still can't find their backbones or any helpful body part. Claire McCaskill, thank you for spending the hour with us. It's great to go through this news with you. By my thank you. Ahead for us, a major shift for Donald Trump involving Russia's war in Ukraine. We'll tell you about it next.

[Glenn Thrush]

We thought we had a deal. Numerous times I'd get home, I'd say, first lady, I had the most wonderful talk with Vladimir. I think we're finished. And then I'll turn on the television or she'll say to me one time, wow, that's strange because they just bombed a nursing home. They said what?

[Chris Hayes]

Not sure what's more disturbing, the commentary or the laughter. Donald Trump this morning seeming to realize what everyone else has known for the last decade, that Russian President Vladimir Putin is taking Donald Trump for one hell of a ride. He told reporters alongside the NATO secretary general today that he is, quote, very unhappy, end quote, with Russia. He threatened to impose severe tariffs on Russia and countries that do business with Russia. He also announced that the US Will send billions of dollars in weapons to Ukraine, including Patriot missiles and batteries through NATO, which will pay for and distribute them within days. Ukrainian President Zelensky thanked Donald Trump today, writing this on social media, quote, we agreed to catch up more often by phone and coordinate our steps in the future as well. We'll keep everyone updated on this. Still ahead for us Democrats and much of the MAGA base on the same page, about one issue at least when it comes to the Trump administration's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files, we'll tell you about it the next hour of deadline. White House starts after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[Chris Hayes]

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.

[Chris Hayes]

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Chris Hayes]

I'm getting sick and tired of being lied to. I'm being sick and tired of all the lies. And by the way, I don't care if those lies are coming from someone with a D. Next to their name or someone with an R next to their name. I will not rest until we go full Jan6 committee on the Jeffrey Epstein files. And every single client that was associated.

[Claire McCaskill]

With this thing has an FBI agent.

[Chris Hayes]

At their door on their phone going after them. That man's name was Jack Posebic. Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in the east for those of you keeping score at home. Republicans did not want an investigation into January6. The angry violent mob that stormed the US Capitol called for the hanging of the then Vice President to Donald Trump, Mike Pence, and brutally attacked the men and women of our law enforcement. In fact, they held the Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol up as the actual heroes and patriots in upside down MAGA World. But when it comes to a so far unfounded conspiracy theory that has flourished online, that evidence that we're aware of when they could potentially implicate the leader of their very movement, they, quote, will not rest. MAGA World is in full meltdown mode over Donald Trump's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files after it said no more information on the case will be released. Contradicting recent past statements Attorney General Pam Bondi made about the case files being, quote, on her desk. Conspiracies around the Jeffrey Epstein case, the top officials in our government would be implicated by some client list that Epstein had and that Jeffrey Epstein was actually murdered in jail. Those are conspiracy theories that have been spread by MAGA World at the highest levels for years. And some of those people now populate the highest levels of the Trump cabinet. Even the current number one and number two at the FBI have previously called for this mysterious list to be released. The White House is shooting down those theories as unfounded. Trump's base, Trump supporters, the most animated members in it, and some of the most vocal are in full revolt. Right wing activist and podcaster Jack Posebeck, that's the guy that we came in showing you, was one of the many who were speaking out really, really mad at this weekend's Turning Point USA summit. Watch more make some noise. If you care about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal, raise your hand. If it matters a lot to you, raise your hand. So every hand of 7,000 people, everybody cares.

[David Jolly]

The fact that the US government, the.

[Chris Hayes]

One that I voted for, refused to take my question seriously and instead said.

[David Jolly]

Case closed, shut up, conspiracy theorists was.

[Nicole Wallace]

Too much for me and I.

[Chris Hayes]

I.

[David Jolly]

Don'T think the rest of us should.

[Nicole Wallace]

Be satisfied with that.

[Chris Hayes]

Epstein is a key that picks the.

[Glenn Thrush]

Lock on so many things.

[Chris Hayes]

Not just individuals, but also institutions, intelligence.

[Glenn Thrush]

Institutions, foreign governments and who was working with them on our intelligence apparatus and in our government.

[Chris Hayes]

This is why it's a time for.

[Glenn Thrush]

Choosing now.

[Chris Hayes]

Between what? These are your people. This is your guy, Steve. But knock yourselves out, guys. Politico lays out what makes this scandal different from previous instances where MAGA may have been frustrated with Donald Trump. Quote, it undercuts Trump's self style brand as a speaker of uncomfortable truths, a slayer of sacred cows and a tribune of the people. This isn't just a policy or ideological disagreement like say, maga's unease over the Iran strike. This cuts to the very heart of his very political identity. End quote. Trump has tried to shut this down, snapping at a reporter last week during a Cabinet meeting over the weekend, his frustration oozed out. He posted a ridiculously long even for him screed on a social media platform. The post was not only remarkable for its length, but for the fact that he was ratioed. Now, if you don't know what that means, it means it describes a post that receives more comments and interactions than people liking it, signaling more disagreement than support. I'm not sure how many other times that's happened to Donald Trump. Democrats are taking note of this, this spectacular debacle, this messy divorce. On the other side of the ideological spectrum, the highest ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, Congressman Jamie Raskin, has called for the attorney general, the FBI director and the FBI deputy director just to come and clear things up. Testify before Congress under oath on the subject, answer all your critics questions Might they say yes. It's where we start the hour with the ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee, the aforementioned Democratic congressman from Maryland, Jamie Raskin. Congressman, thank you for being here.

[Claire McCaskill]

Delighted to be with you, Nicole.

[Chris Hayes]

There's something sick slash sad about the analogy being made by MAGA influencers to wanting a January 6th style commission when they didn't want a January 6th commission to look into what became a deadly attack on the U.S. capitol. What do you make of their fervor on this issue?

[Claire McCaskill]

Well, indeed we had a bipartisan and bicameral agreement to have an outside 911 style commission to examine the events of January 6th, which was then ruined by Donald Trump. They blew it up. And that was why the speaker of the House, then Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, had to create a select committee, a bipartisan select committee, which of course the Republican boycotted officially, although the speaker was able to appoint Adam Kinziger and Liz Cheney to it. And we actually had a meaningful bipartisan investigation and nobody has laid a glove on a single factual finding of that committee. Look, right now we are in a very extreme period of conspiracy theory and hysteria over this thing, and understandably so. President Trump, Vice President Vance, Pam Bondi herself, Dan Bongino, Cash Patel, all of them were demanding before the election the release of all of the materials related to Jeffrey Epstein. And they were alleging a massive, basically human trafficking, child sex abuse conspiracy ring. And if that were true, that would be of profound significance and importance to everybody in America. That's not an ideological thing or a political thing. We're a society which has seen terribly traumatic cases of massive child sex abuse in churches, in schools, in colleges and universities, including Michigan State and Ohio State. This is not fictional, fabricated stuff. This is all well documented, and it's a serious threat to public health and to our children in society. So I don't blame anybody for being upset about this if you've got the President of the United States talking about it. But now what's happened is he's performed a complete 1:80U turn and now says there's nothing there in that tweet that you put up on the screen. Nicole, what was incredible about that to me is that in it he repeats the lie about the 2020 presidential election, which he claims to have won. He lost it by more than 7 million votes, 306 to 232, in the Electoral College. More than 60 federal and state courts rejected every claim he made that he won that election. And yet he doubles down on that absolute conspiracy theory fiction in the same tweet that he tries to tell everybody. Nothing to see over here with, you know, with Jeffrey Epstein and the client list, which the Attorney General said was sitting on her list. So, look, whether we're going to expose this massive sex ring among the power elite, which is what they have been telling people, we're going to expose their propaganda and their conspiracy theory. We should go ahead and get the facts released to the public because it's an untenable posture where you've got millions and millions of people who've been told this is going on. It needs to be released. The conspiracy theory seems to grow in terms of its dimensions and its implications every day. And they keep saying that they're just going to sweep it under the rug. I don't think that's going to work. So, you know, I'm sending this letter today to Chairman Jordan saying, let's have a bipartisan hearing hearing where we bring in all of the relevant actors of the Department of Justice to testify and they can bring with them, the documents that will get to the public, the truth.

[Chris Hayes]

You're in a fascinating position. I'm a big movie fan. It's like just sort of help me help you. I mean, I will help you Republicans get to the bottom of your conspiracy theory and we'll either out this sex ring, which I, too, as a leading Democrat, believe would be a grave injustice and threat and, or, or no, not and. Or it's one or the other. We will get to the bottom of what is a conspiracy theory, which seems to be Donald Trump's position, telling his own supporters, there's nothing to see here. Move on. Even though, as you just said, he continues to repeat the lies, his own conspiracy theory about his loss in 2020. Do you think they will take you up on your offer?

[Claire McCaskill]

Well, it will be interesting to see because when you talk to Republicans about it, they were adamant that this, all of this information be released. When my colleague from Maryland, Senator Van Hollen, introduced an amendment in the appropriations process to insist that everything in the Epstein files be preserved and saved from destruction, he got a unanimous bipartisan vote on that. All the Republicans and all the Democrats in committee voted on that. And I hope that that's going to come out, you know, quickly from the Senate and the House will act accordingly. We obviously don't want any of the evidence to be compromised, altered or destroyed in any way before we can act on this. But, you know, I've been, I've been getting calls from Democrats, Republicans, Independents, not just in my district, but from all over Maryland and from all over the country saying we want a proper accounting and transparency on this. The administration has said they are the most transparent administration in history. Whatever you think about the merits of that claim, they've got the opportunity to show right now that they've got a real commitment to transparency. I don't think I've gotten a single call from anyone saying, no, let's maintain the secrecy of all of these documents.

[Chris Hayes]

What do you. What are your questions about what's in the documents, and what do you want to know the answer to?

[Claire McCaskill]

Well, there have been so many claims made that I think that the members on both sides of the aisle will want to ask those questions. So is there a list of Epstein clients that he either kept for reasons of solicitation and business and the execution of a sick conspiracy, or did he maintain that for purposes of, you know, coercion, coercion of people for certain things? Was it a blackmail list? And who's on that list? There are obviously a lot of names that have been floated out there. I don't want to repeat any of them. But those names are all over the Internet. And is that true or is it not true? There are all kinds of extravagant claims being made about other people being involved, other institutions being involved. And we either need to get to the bottom of whether that's true or we should put an end to all of the propaganda in the conspiracy theory. It's going to be very damaging for us if the president is going to proceed on, on falsehoods and conspiracy theory and then allow that to erode public trust. So I think there is something to what a lot of the Republicans are saying that this needs to be done to restore public trust.

[Chris Hayes]

At this point, Megyn Kelly essentially accuses Trump of, quote, directing Attorney General Pam Bondi in what she describes as a cover up. What do you think of that, Sari?

[Claire McCaskill]

Well, I again, I don't know what is taking place behind the scenes. I would also find it very hard to believe, though, that Donald Trump wants to release it, but Pam Bondi is somehow defying his orders in not releasing it. And, you know, I can think of dozens of reasons that Pam Bondi should be asked to resign, especially her complicity with, you know, firing all of these January 6th prosecutors, which is outrageous. But this would not be a reason, I think, to demand Pam Bondi's resignation. Clearly, it's Donald Trump who's making the call here. For whatever reason, he said he was going to release it and now he's saying there's nothing to see here and appears to be wanting to sweep the whole thing under the rug. And I think that's an irresponsible way to proceed after having inflamed millions of millions of people in the country and raised all kinds of doubts about our law enforcement commitment to prosecuting child sex abuse. I mean, if there are literally other people on this list who are somehow implicated in this actions, it is dangerous to public health and safety not to release the names publicly. If all of it is a concoction and an invention, then I think they need to come clean about that and say they don't have such a list or it's made up or what have you. But I think it's very dangerous just to leave these things hanging out there.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, you have completely boxed them in politically and on the substance. Jamie Raskin, thank you for the letter. Thank you for joining us to talk about it. Please come back and keep us posted if you get any nibbles or bites from Republicans. We're dying to know. Thank you very much.

[Claire McCaskill]

You bet.

[Chris Hayes]

Joining our coverage, voting rights attorney, founder of democracy docket, Mark Elias. I mean, Mark, this is how it's done. I mean, you either go down with the conspiracy theories or you join the MAGA movement that wants transparency. But you do one or the other. They're not both on the menu anymore.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Elias]

Look, I think Saturday is going to go down as one of the most important days in the second Trump presidency for a couple of weeks reasons. First of all, it's the day he lost control of his base. It's really the first time we've seen that. You know, maybe you could argue in the days after January six, he was in shaky position among Republicans. But, but this is certainly in the second term, a, a real threat to his control over, over his, his faithful. The other reason, though, why Saturday was so important is that Donald Trump actually advanced this story in a couple of really important ways. Up until then, I think there was a debate about whether or not these files existed and the Republicans were hiding them. Trump, Donald Trump was hiding them, or the files didn't exist. And this was kind of a leopard's ate my face moment, right. In which the Trump, Donald Trump and his administration built up this conspiracy and then couldn't live up to, to it. Donald Trump, though, in the post you put on the screen said something very, very important, and that is that he said that the Epstein files do exist because they were written by Obama, crooked Hillary, Comey Brennan and the losers and criminals of the Biden administration. Now, this is no small thing because he is now saying there are Epstein files. We know these are Epstein files because he doesn't want to give them publicity because they are forgeries created by this list of Democrats. So Donald Trump is clearly laying the predicate that he is afraid that these files are going to see the light of day, whether that's because of a whistleblower or a leak or his hand is forced. But one way or another, these files are going to see the light of day. It suggests likely that they are unflattering for him and potentially embarrassing to him or to people, people close to him. And the last part of that post, he talk, he says, and I'm going to prosecute my political opponents. You know, by the way, what needs to be being investigated is being investigated, which is a whole series of Democrats and conspiracies about Democrats. And so I think what you see in that one post is files exist, maybe they come out. But I'm going to try to change the subject by, by suggesting wrongdoing on the part of Democratic Democrats.

[Chris Hayes]

The investigation happens, though, while he's president. So how does he, how does he get Hillary Clinton? I mean, what are you just saying? There's this complete absence of facts and logic.

[Mark Elias]

Oh, it's completely made up, let's be clear. Like he is dissembling here in this. I mean, as you point out, the investigation goes on when he's president. Hillary Clinton at this point is not in government, is nowhere near government. You know, like John Brennan. Why would John, what would John Brennan have to do is right. Like, it's, of course, it's just a ridiculous theory. But he is setting the stage, though, to claim, you know, remember, he was on the ropes politically in his first administration. Then one day he announced that, that Barack Obama had wiretapped him. Remember that? And that was like his effort. Right. And so, so this is sort of the equivalent of that, Nicole.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess the difference is for the first time in 10 years, the base seems to be onto him. You know, knock on some wood. We'll see if it holds. We need you to stick around. When we come back, really important, really upsetting story that shows just how far Donald Trump's ICE raids have gone. We're bringing you the disturbance, disturbing, chilling story of how federal agents came for Little League baseball players on Manhattan's Upper west side. How they tried to question the kids and the one human being, the coach, defended them off with his courage and his knowledge of the Constitution. The coach will be our next guest. You don't want to miss this. Also ahead for us, why Donald Trump's tariffs aren't just a bluff, but are essentially the largest tax increase on us, but especially amongst, more importantly working class and middle class Americans in the history of our country ever. And how the fallout, economic and political, including factories shutting down here at home and trading partners moving on without the United States of America is transforming the US Economy in ways we're just starting to see now. That then White House continues after a quick break and go anywhere despite Donald Trump's repeated campaign promises that his mass deportation raids would target the, quote, worst of the worst. We've seen his administration actually target some of the best. Young students, high school students, landscapers, hard working people on the job at work. And now American kids practicing the ultimate American pastime, baseball at practice. One baseball coach, human Wilder, described his experience at protecting his players after ICE agents showed up at the baseball practice he runs on Manhattan's Upper west side in Riverside Park. Wilder says the agents who were armed with guns and tasers, approached some of the kids, some of the players, and began asking about their country of origin. Here's what he told local news.

[Kevin Blackistone]

I told my kids to walk to the back of the cages right here. And I said, they're going to invoke the fifth amendment rights. They're not going to say anything. Their parents are, you know, from the Dominican Republic, South America, Mexican, Africa, but their kids who are born here, they have have a 14th amendment entitlement to live here. I never in my life thought this was going to happen on the Upper west side in New York City. That whole thing, you know, until it happens to you, you're not aware, and it happened to us.

[Chris Hayes]

One local assembly woman who first brought the raid to public attention warns of this quote, the only thing that stood between those kids in Riverside park and Florida Detention center buried deep in the Everglades, was a brave coach who knew the law. The coach Wilder has since moved the location and practice time to try to protect his kids and prevent this from happening again. Despite that precaution, the kids and their parents were so shaken up by the incident that only 2, 2 have returned to practice so far. Joining our conversation is that extraordinary baseball coach Yuman Wilder, founder of Harlem Baseball Hitting Academy. Also joining our conversation, sports columnist for the Washington Post, professor of journalism at the University of Maryland, Kevin Blackistone is here. Mark Elias is with us as well. Coach, thank you for being here.

[Kevin Blackistone]

Thank you for having me.

[Chris Hayes]

What can you. I want to ask you, and I want to understand and I want to try to learn where your presence of mind came from to. To reach for your knowledge of the Constitution, which not everybody has. But I first want you to just tell me what happened again. Just recount this experience for us.

[Kevin Blackistone]

Well, our practice was pretty much finishing up. We usually practice about two hours, two and a half hours. Whenever my iPhone goes out, we're finished with practice. We videotape all our practices for the last 22 years. So I went over to shoot some hoops because my kids are telling me how old I was, and I couldn't shoot a hoop like Seth McCurry, which I can't. And I just saw these ICE officers walking. And I had seen them in Washington Heights. I had seen them in Dyckman, up where more Dominican kids and South American kids live. And when I turned around to get the ball and I turned around again, I saw them approaching my kids, and I just went over and I just heard them stating where you're from, where your parents from. And I. And I just stepped in and said, this is very inappropriate to ask these kids anything. And I said, as a person who's supervising them, I'm just going to have them implement their fifth Amen.

[Chris Hayes]

Right.

[Kevin Blackistone]

And not say anything to you.

[Chris Hayes]

What did the agents say when you confronted them and said, these kids. These kids have rights? And you got between the agents and the kids?

[Kevin Blackistone]

Yeah, he called. He has wonderful words for another YouTube lawyer.

[Chris Hayes]

What did they do? Did they leave? I mean, were they ultimately persuaded to leave the kids alone?

[Kevin Blackistone]

No, they kept changing the goal post. It became a thing. If they had nothing, you know, the whole thing. If you have nothing to hide, you should see, you know, just Trump in the Fourth Amendment. Right. Didn't really care. The whole thing came up like, I don't care what you say. I don't care what the law says. And the only thing I had that day was my Uncle Pete, my ear. Who's my bishop, my mother, my ear. The Constitution and prayer. That's the only thing I had that day.

[Chris Hayes]

And you were. Tell me how old the kids were and where you guys were. You were in a park on Riverside in 72nd where there are a bunch of ball fields, Right? Right.

[Kevin Blackistone]

Well, there. There's batting cages there. We usually work in Harlem.

[Chris Hayes]

We're.

[Kevin Blackistone]

We're the Harlem base for Hidden Academy. And, you know, I always tell people it's very important that we don't want to be sought out as a victim. This academy has been around for 22 years. We graduated 400 kids out of college who walk around with degrees from Stanford and Princeton and Harvard, all African American and Latino kids. So we're not. We're. We're. We're not. Not going around saying, poor little us, because we do very, very good work. Our thing is this should not. It shouldn't have to have a person who has a master's degree in law to know rights. And this can happen to anybody. If it can happen on the Upper west side of 72nd street, it can happen to anybody. And that's. That's why that we have to. There's got to be a better way to. For the administration to deal with this, and it's got to be a better way for people to understand their rights.

[Chris Hayes]

Coach, what did people. I mean, it's a really crowded area. A lot of people run in that area. There's a lot of organized practices, and there are other folks trying to practice in that area. What did the bystanders do?

[Kevin Blackistone]

They were. I'm a New Yorker, bone on bone and we're tough people here, but I saw cowards, and I hate to say that as somebody who loves the city.

[Chris Hayes]

Okay, they're kids. Yeah, tell me, tell me what. What did you want to see? And what, and what, what disappointed you?

[Kevin Blackistone]

Obeying to authoritarianism, to authority that was out of line, Pissing on the Constitution and I. They came up with I don't care. I don't care.

[Chris Hayes]

How are the kids now?

[Kevin Blackistone]

We usually carry between 20 and 25 kids. Some of my kids are playing in tournaments throughout the country. Matter of fact, when I get off here, one of our kids are actually be drafted this evening, and he'll be up 40. He'll be our 45th major league draft pick. Our kids, no one shows up. I mean, we have one kid showing up. We usually carry between 20, 25 kids who are playing, and we usually carry during the summer between 11 and 15 kids. And we're having one kid show up at practice right now.

[Chris Hayes]

The Major League All Star game is this week, and I've just taken a break. But on the other side, I want to ask you what you'd like. You know, it's not just an attack on your kids or you. It's an attack on the sport. I want to ask you what you'd like to say to Major League Baseball. On the other side of a break. I also want to bring Kevin and Mark into the conversation. Please stay with us. We'll all be right back. We're back with Yuman. Kevin and Mark are here as well. Yeoman, what do you want Major League Baseball to know? A sport that depends on players from all over the world.

[Kevin Blackistone]

I, you know, Major League Baseball has disappointed the African American community so much that just to action for anything is irrelevant. I mean, unfortunately, when it comes to black people in the Major League Baseball, they find us irrelevant. They don't see us. They've done everything in their power to. To erase African American inclusion. So I don't have anything to say to Mexico baseball.

[Chris Hayes]

What do you have to say to the community about how they can do better if this happens again? My son plays baseball, plays travel baseball, and has practiced on those fields for years. I can't imagine doing nothing when kids were targeted by armed agents.

[Kevin Blackistone]

Well, I think the only thing we have to do, we have a professor right there who, who, you know, we have to teach kids about civics. We have to have our kids understand that the Constitution, no matter what, whether you are born here or you're here illegally, that you still have constitutional right. You, you have a. A young man there who I is one of my idols when it comes to voting rights in this country. So we have to have people like him go out and tell people and people who understand the Constitution, who can defend people's Fourth Amendment right, people's 14th Amendment right, people's right to be able to live in this country freely if they're born, raised, and have done nothing illegal to warrant any type of intrusion into their civil rights.

[Chris Hayes]

Kevin Blackistone, your thoughts?

[Jamie Raskin]

Well, first of all, Coach Wilder gets an MVP for his actions. It's unfortunate, of course, that he had to go that far at all. But we need more coaches like that everywhere. Everybody needs to be aware of what's happening, not just from watching the news, but being active in your community. You know, and I'm one of those people that went out and I downloaded the ice block apple, and I've been stunned to hear it ping and to see that some of these very same situations are happening not too far from where I live, not too far from where I work. And it's really unfortunate that this situation has poisoned sports. You mentioned the All Star Game coming up. I think I counted a couple dozen Latin American baseball players who will be on the field for the All Star Game. And I know that some of them, certainly some with the Dodgers, have been. Have expressed how upset they are with what happened at Dodger Stadium, talking about ice showing up and forcing the Dodgers organization. Turn those folks around, turn those folks away, just like Coach Wilder did on his own. And so we need more of this. And. And it really is sad that it has injected itself into our sports culture. People want to tell you that sports and politics don't mix. And yet we saw sports and politics mix right here on this show, which Coach Wilder was talking about with the Dodgers, with the FIFA Club World cup the other day. You know, I, for one, don't think that this country under this administration, is really fit to host the World cup or fit to host the Olympics coming up, because those organizations have information in their charters about what they stand for and who they stand for. FIFA has an entire section about human rights, and yet Gianni Infantino, the head of FIFA, had the nerve to embrace President Trump the other day at the championship game of the Club World Cup. Someone who does not stand for human rights, but instead is trampling human rights.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. Including those of kids. Mark Elias, your thoughts? Yeah.

[Mark Elias]

Look, you and I talk a lot on this show about what it is we all need to do to protect democracy. And Coach Wilder did it like he is the hero of the story because he showed courage and he was surrounded by cowards. The cowards who were staking out and approaching these kids with badges and guns should be ashamed of themselves. History will remember them for the cowards they are, the bystanders that the coach got so emotional about. What were they doing? You know, we all ask ourselves, what would we do if democracy would stay? What would we do if we were facing injustice? What would we do if our children, Our children were being. Were being threatened? Well, those bystanders told us what they did. They did nothing. They are the cowards, too. And we are only going to get through this part of history. We are only going to make it through to the other side if we have more people who are willing to take a stand like Coach Wilder did, and fewer people who will go along and get along and not stand up and do what is right. And finally, I'd add this for Major League Baseball. You know, in 2021, you told us that the voter suppression laws in Georgia were bad enough for you to move the All Star Game. Where are you today? Where are you, Major League Baseball? Where are you, the billionaire owners of these sports teams? When democracy needs you, why aren't you supporting those kids? Why aren't you supporting your players? Why aren't you speaking out in favor of democracy? Because you're cowards. Also.

[Chris Hayes]

Human. You want a last word on this, Yeoman?

[Kevin Blackistone]

My only fear is the gateway. You know, there's a gateway drug to. To things. And the gateway is now, do we, you know, take kids who are going to predominantly Latino schools? You know, I'm in Washington, I'm in Harlem, but I'm close to Washington Heights where Manny Ramirez, Rod Carew went to high school. It's 98% Latino. Louis. Louis is another school that is predominantly Latino. Now, do ICE agents go to those schools and demand those kids out? And now when their mothers and fathers come and try to pick them up, do they detain these parents now? So it's a slippery road that deals with a lot of things that we have to be very conscious of. And that's why we have to have people speaking up and we have to have a better way to do this stuff. You know, I'm no fan of. Of any of this, but I'm also a fan of the fact that we can be better as people and we can protect people. The only way you can protect people is understanding that the Constitution has. We have to rely on that. And we can't cherry pick it. We can't let it. We can't take people's First Amendment, fourth Amendment, Fifth Amendment right. But yet you want to hold on to your second Amendment right. And that's, and that's, that's to your old God. But we're willing to take rights from other people and not care, have a concern. We have to care about people, young people.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, any of those kids that have you in their corner are very, very, very lucky and we feel lucky to get to talk to you today. Please come back anytime. Anytime. Thank you so much.

[Kevin Blackistone]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[Chris Hayes]

You're a wilder. Yeah. Kevin and Mark, my favorite conversation in a very long time. Thank you very much, all of you. When we come back, Donald Trump's tariffs are starting to transform the American economy in very real and not very positive ways. The people paying the biggest price are some of the same people who he persuaded to vote for him with the biggest political betrayal of his lifetime. We'll have that conversation next. Just wait. They say it's coming again and again and again. The deals are on their way. 90 and 90 days. Oops, maybe just one because they're not. Donald Trump is prepared, though, to move forward anyway with a 30% tariff on goods imported from the European Union starts on August 1st. And while there's optimism that an actual trade dealer framework of wine can be reached before then, that slightly less bad. Trump and his allies today are celebrating tariffs, which are actually taxes, after the treasury reported a small budget surplus for June. Of course, it did so on the back of what is at its most basic level, as we said, a tax, a big one on American consumers. New York Times reports this quote. Since Trump came into office, the average effective U.S. tariff rate has soared to 16.6% from 2.5%. That's according to tracking by the Budget Lab at Yale University, a nonpartisan research center. That is a dramatic increase compared to Trump's first term, when it rose 2.5% from 1.5%, primarily as a result of Trump's trade war with China. If all the tariffs that Trump is now threatening on trading partners go into effect on August 1, that average tariff rate would rise to 20.6%. That is the highest since since 1910. According to the Yale Budget Lab's calculations. That would also top the level of the Smoot Hawley tariffs, which worsened the Great Depression. Joining our coverage is David Frahm, staff writer for the Atlantic, host of the video podcast the David Frum Show. DAVID fromm, Whenever anyone says Smoot Hawley, I always go and Google it just to feel smarter than I am talk about why comparisons to Smoot Hawley and the Great Depression are so ominous for the American economy.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, Smoot Hawley was a tariff that was imposed in 1930. As you said, the United States was already entering the Great Depression. That was in part because of tariffs imposed earlier in the 1920s. But Smoot Hawley kicked the world economy downhill because what Trump and people like him never understand is other countries have politics, too. So when Trump is, as he just did this afternoon, puts a 21% tariff on Mexican tomatoes. That happened, I think, between the beginning of your show and Now a new 21% tariff on Mexican tomato. What is Mexico supposed to do with that? They're going to react. They're going to punish something. And you get this spiral of retribution and revenge among people who used to be friends. We've got a 50% tax on copper coming, which is going to make every consumer product, every electronic product more expensive.

[Chris Hayes]

Why, David, from the chaos seems to be obscuring anyone's ability to cover this in a consistent and understandable way. I'm guessing. On the one hand, that's the point. On the other, it creates more economic instability. You have a unique ability to sort of keep your, your eye on the ball. Take me through what you think is happening and why the Republicans remain on the sidelines.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I don't think this is quite as chaotic as it looks. It's like three card Monte. There's a lot of patter, but you can see there's a scam being perpetrated. So Trump dialed back the tariff talk during the period when he's trying to get as big fiscal bill through Congress. This was a bill that was going to cut a lot of people's health care benefits. But the offset was he said, look, we're giving a lot of tax cuts. And while many of them go to wealthy people, there are things that working class people might appreciate. So he kept in the drawer while he was saying we'll have some reduction of taxes on certain kinds of tips, some reduction on Social Security income. But meanwhile, we're planning a massive increase on everything you buy. The thing to understand about a tariff is it falls more heavily on people who consume goods and services. The way I put it is there's a tariff on the towel, there's no membership, there's no tariff on the membership in the swim club. There's a tariff if you eat at home, there's a tariff on the table, there's a tariff on the knife, there's a tariff on the fork. But if you go to a restaurant, there's no tariff on the chef. There's no tariff on the rent of the restaurant. So the richer you are, the more of your income you spend on services and they're tariff free. The poorer you are, the more you spend on goods. So he, I think, delayed the tariff shock until he could get the fiscal bill through Congress and claim it's a working class tax cut. And now whammy. Everyone in the lower 50% of the population is going to give back everything they got. Plus plus plus plus.

[Chris Hayes]

David, we ended up with less time than we'd planned because we had this coach who sort of took our breath away. But I do want to go through everything that he's put in place with you like Mexican tomatoes. If you could come back tomorrow, I'd love to pick this up with you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Terrific. Thank you.

[Chris Hayes]

Okay. David Frum, thank you for joining us today. When we come back, we want to show you a little bit of this week's Best People podcast. Don't go anywhere. Music legend and rock and Roll hall of Famer Jimmy Jam has worked with the who's who of music royalty Prince, Prince, both Jacksons, Janet and Michael. He also happens to be my guest on this week's episode of the Best People. He shared behind the scenes stories about those recording sessions with Janet and Michael Jackson. Plus, he is a font of perspective and wisdom and all things good in this moment. To listen to this conversation, scan the QR code on your screen right now. You can listen to the whole thing. After you do, let me know what you think of this fun. We're going to take one more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are so grateful.