Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: “Perfidy” – January 13, 2026

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC
Guests: Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, Margaret Donovan, Rick Stengel, Senator Mark Kelly, Kasra Arabi, Oliver Darcy

Episode Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace explores explosive new revelations about potentially illegal and unethical U.S. military actions in the Caribbean under the Trump administration, focusing on allegations of "perfidy"—the use of deliberate deception prohibited under the laws of war. Wallace and her guests analyze the moral, legal, and political consequences of these actions, discuss chilling effects on dissent within the military and in society, and connect the moment to broader questions about democracy, protest, and free speech both at home and abroad.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Caribbean Military Strikes and Perfidy

[01:05–11:06]

• Congressional Outrage:
  • Rep. Jim Himes described the killing of two shipwrecked survivors by U.S. forces as “one of the most troubling things I’ve seen in my time in public service.” [01:05]
• Outrageous Tactics:
  • New York Times reporting: Pentagon used a secret aircraft painted to resemble a civilian plane, with guided munitions hidden inside.
  • Violates international law (Geneva Conventions), classified as “perfidy,” a form of betrayal in warfare considered a war crime.
  • “Such deadly deceit goes back millennia and is prohibited under Geneva Conventions. In the same way, it is wrong to go in for a handshake with a knife behind your back.” – Nicolle Wallace [02:02]
• Official Response:
  • White House says operation was "fully consistent with the law of armed conflict"—but experts and guests strongly disagree.

2. Expert Analysis: Legality and Morality of Military Actions

[05:11–12:26]

• Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling:
  • Decries the use of “deceit, not deception,” in warfare.
  • “It overrides that morality that’s associated with war. And that’s what we put our servicemen and women into, and they have to live with it.” [05:46]
  • Draws parallels to post-9/11 waterboarding debates: “It gnaws at people. They don’t like to do it. There’s no proof it works… It depends on who your lawyers are and how much they want to bend and sometimes even break the rules.” [07:58]
• Margaret Donovan:
  • Breaks down difference between deception (allowed: camouflage, decoys) vs. perfidy (forbidden: masquerading as civilians).
  • “It is that text book of an example of things that you don’t do in combat… You convinced the so-called enemy that you are flying planes where you can’t see the weapons and that appear to be civilian planes. Do you know what that does? That makes the enemy target civilian planes. And that’s why we don’t do that.” [09:22]
  • Critiques the lack of legal oversight: “The only explanation I can come up with is that the JAGs were nowhere in the room when they came up with this idea.” [10:45]

3. Responsibility, Unlawful Orders, and Chilling Dissent

[11:06–17:27]

• Military Warnings:
  • Recent video: Six lawmakers urge military members not to obey illegal orders; new revelations strengthen their case.
  • “We now have two examples of unlawful orders… striking on shipwrecked survivors and pretending you were a civilian aircraft in a combat mission.” – Margaret Donovan [11:30]
• Sen. Mark Kelly Lawsuit (First Amendment):
  • Files suit against Sec. of Defense Hegseth: “This is not just about me. This is really about all of us, including a lot of retired veterans… Protect the First Amendment rights of all Americans, but especially retired members of the military.” [12:36]
• Threats to Veterans’ Free Speech:
  • Wallace notes former President Trump’s disparaging statements about the military: “This is what Donald Trump thinks of those men and women, that they are, quote, losers and suckers.” [13:35]
  • Donovan: “Denigrating people’s service, trying to threaten a sitting senator… I have faith that many soldiers will identify that for what it is: unlawful, unconstitutional, and uncalled for behavior…” [14:15]
• Collapse of Guardrails:
  • Rick Stengel: “There are people in the military who were deeply uncomfortable… Even the fact that they camouflage[d] the plane to do this deed shows that they thought that it was illegal in the first place. And it is part of this whole… effort of illegality.” [15:17]
  • Wallace: “If we’re gonna get rid of the statement ‘don’t do anything illegal,’ we’re in a whole new world.” [16:15]
• Failure of Political Leadership:
  • Lack of pushback from senior officials (e.g., Sen. Rubio): “They’re all afraid of the commander in chief… He’s making decisions by whim, by instinct, without regard to law…” – Rick Stengel [17:06]

4. Deeper: Culture of Illegality and Chilled Dissent

[17:27–20:11]

• Willingness to Break and Bend Rules:
  • General Hertling: “[Trump’s] got a group of individuals around him who have been chilled by his actions… There has been an effort… to pardon a couple of war criminals who were turned in by their own men. So now we’re just seeing the bending of the rules, and how much can we get away with and how cute can we be on the battlefield…” [17:54]
• Tension and Silence:
  • “The only thing that’s worse than not speaking up is not speaking at all.” – Lt. Gen. Hertling [19:56]

5. Iran Protests and U.S. Response

[22:24–32:10]

• Brutal Crackdown:
  • Kasra Arabi: “The death toll is now being reported at 12,000 civilians. 12,000 civilians have been massacred on the streets of Iran. Tens of thousands have been detained. Despite this, the Iranian people are still coming onto the streets en masse, calling for the downfall of the Islamic regime.” [23:37]
• U.S. Policy Debates:
  • Kasra: Only U.S. military action can change the balance of power.
  • Hertling: Cautions against military-first response—“There are downsides in using the military to bombard the IRGC or different facilities inside of Tehran… For one thing, it again starts a war… Should this be moderated with diplomatic solutions?” [26:08]
  • Stengel: Historical context—“To threaten missile attacks or military attacks gives them [Iranian regime] the Great Satan to blame.” [28:37]
• Protesters’ Motivation:
  • Kasra: “It has mobilized the protesters. It has boosted the morale on the streets… The only thing that can change this cycle of protest and suppression is to change the balance of power. How do you do that? You have to weaken the capabilities and the willingness of the killing machine of the ayatollah…” [30:18]

6. Chilling Effects: Hollywood’s Silence & American Protest

[34:16–45:17]

• Golden Globes' Silence:
  • Despite large protests over the death of Renee Nicole Goode, no major award winners addressed the turmoil during their acceptance speeches.
  • Oliver Darcy (media analyst): “If someone were to go back and REWATCH the show 100 years from now, they’d likely have no clue about the political mayhem defining the moment… Several Hollywood and media power players told Status… that the political chill gripping Washington had unmistakenly made its way to Los Angeles.” [36:50]
• Reasons Behind Silence:
  • Fear of Retaliation: “They are afraid to provoke this president… they don’t want to be a target of one of his late night tirades.” – Oliver Darcy [37:12]
  • Business Interests: Studio heads seeking Trump’s approval for deals, fear of blacklisting, publicists advising caution.
  • Self-Censorship: “If everyone were to do it, it’s really hard to retaliate against all of Hollywood. But because no one’s doing [it], it’s become taboo.” – Darcy [40:20]
  • Historical Parallels: “There’s a long history of that [platform activism], but there’s also a long history of silence. The Hollywood 10 during the McCarthy era...” – Rick Stengel [44:53]
• Contrast to Ordinary Americans:
  • Darcy: “The people that are actually protesting this government… are the people with the least power in society… Meanwhile, the people who have reaped the most benefits from our democratic institutions… are the ones who are silent.” [38:52]
  • “In general, in life, I try to praise people for their courage and not criticize people for the absence of it. Given the choice between a bunch of Hollywood movie stars speaking out against the president versus regular Americans out there protesting in Minnesota, I take the latter every day of the week.” – Rick Stengel [44:23]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Perfidy and Moral Failure:
  • “You don’t need to have heard of the word perfidy before today to grasp the rank moral depravity… what may very well turn out to be a war crime perpetrated by Donald Trump’s Department of Defense.” – Nicolle Wallace [01:26]
  • “It overrides that morality that’s associated with war.” – Lt. Gen. Hertling [05:46]
• On Legal Advice and Rule-Bending:
  • “It depends on who your lawyers are and how much they want to bend and sometimes even break the rules.” – Hertling [07:58]
• On Protecting Military Members from Illegal Orders:
  • “We now have two examples of unlawful orders… striking on shipwrecked survivors and pretending that you were a civilian aircraft in a combat mission.” – Margaret Donovan [11:30]
• On Attacks on Dissent and Free Speech:
  • “This is not just about me. This is really about all of us… Protect the First Amendment rights of all Americans, but especially retired members of the military…” – Senator Mark Kelly [12:36]
• On Chilling Effect:
  • “The only thing that’s worse than not speaking up is not speaking at all.” – Lt. Gen. Hertling [19:56]
  • “If we’re gonna get rid of the statement ‘don’t do anything illegal,’ we’re in a whole new world.” – Wallace [16:15]
• On Protest under Threat:
  • “The people that are actually protesting this government… are the people with the least power in society… the people who have reaped the most benefits from our democratic institutions… are the ones who are silent.” – Darcy [38:52]

Important Timestamps

• [01:05] – Rep. Jim Himes describes witnessing evidence of potential war crimes.
• [02:02] – Wallace lays out the legal and moral stakes of perfidy.
• [05:11] – Hertling reacts to NYT reporting on military actions.
• [09:22] – Donovan explains why perfidy is forbidden and dangerous.
• [11:30] – Discussion about the legitimacy and urgency of warning military personnel about illegal orders.
• [12:36] – Sen. Mark Kelly speaks out about his lawsuit and the threat to veterans’ speech.
• [23:37] – Kasra Arabi details the toll of the Iranian regime’s crackdown.
• [26:08] – Hertling analyzes risks of military intervention in Iran.
• [36:50] – Oliver Darcy reports on Hollywood’s conspicuous silence during the Golden Globes.
• [38:52] – Darcy contrasts powerful elites’ silence with ordinary Americans’ protest.
• [44:23] – Stengel reflects on courage, silence, and missed opportunities.

Episode Tone and Style

• The tone is urgent, direct, and deeply concerned with the ethical, legal, and democratic health of the United States and its institutions. Wallace blends journalistic rigor with a conversational and empathetic approach, engaging experts who speak candidly, often with personal conviction and moral gravity—particularly in their condemnation of efforts to normalize illegal or undemocratic behavior at the highest levels of government.

For New Listeners

If you missed the episode, this conversation dissects how a few covert military actions have come to symbolize declining ethical standards in U.S. government and the silencing of dissent. The episode bridges headline-grabbing revelations with bigger questions about the rule of law, the responsibility of public figures, and why everyday Americans continue to protest and speak out even as those with the most to lose—veterans, activists, civilians abroad—bear the brunt of these political choices.

Listen for:

• Chilling expert explanations of “perfidy” and its consequences
• Candid warnings about the breakdown of legal and ethical guardrails in government
• Insightful reflection on protest, risk, and the failures of power to defend democracy
• Sharp analysis of why even Hollywood’s elite are choosing silence in a climate of fear

This summary covers the main topics, arguments, and pivotal moments as discussed by Nicolle Wallace and her guests in “Perfidy.”