Mike Schmidt (4:11)

Look, in the course of a several decades long Justice Department investigation, investigators are going to soak up all different sorts of tips, details, leads and such. In the course of that as, as this, this one woman tells her story, she's telling us that she told the FBI about an interaction she had with Trump and Epstein. And the significance of it is that that is just the type of detail that Trump's allies and, and supporters have been clamoring for. They want the Epstein files. They want to know who was close to Epstein, who he was talking to, who he was doing business with. Anyone who is connected to him, they believe should see the light of day. And you know, Donald Trump being someone who's obviously very powerful and important, would sort of fit into what the supporters would want, because what the supporters would want to know is who was in the orbit of Epstein. And what we're trying to say in this story is that although we cannot see into all the Justice Department files and we don't know everything that is in them, or even if this woman's account of her interaction with Trump is there, this is the type of thing that could be buried in the documents that would be unflattering for Trump because Trump would have to explain, well, why were you with Jeffrey Epstein, why were you with him in this room with this woman? What is that all about? And makes it more difficult for him to put distance between him and himself. But at the heart of this story is the idea that this is the type of thing that investigations soak up. A very small percentage of the evidence investigators collect ultimately goes, you know, in an indictment or is used at a trial where a judge oversees, you know, how it can be cross examined. And this is the type of detail that could be damaging. That would be. That could potentially be in the documents.

Tim Miller (6:17)

Mike Schmidt, just tell us a little bit more about Ms. Farmer and her sister and how they figured into the Epstein investigation. Because victims seem to be absent reporting. Like you're somewhat voiceless and potentially retraumatized by all of this.

Mike Schmidt (6:33)

Well, in 2019, my colleague Mike Baker reported on these two sisters and about how one of them, in 1995, called the NYPD to essentially report Epstein, Epstein and Maxwell to the authorities. And the significance of that is that this is one of the, if not the first call to law enforcement, the first time that someone reported Epstein to two folks who could hold him accountable criminally. According to their account, the NYPD told them to reach out to the FBI. They reached out to the FBI. About a decade later, they were interviewed again by the FBI. It was in those two different interactions with the FBI that one of the sisters says that she told them about the interactions that she had with Trump and how there were very powerful people who Epstein had ties to, and that that was something that she thought the authorities should look into. She didn't have evidence that Donald Trump or any of the other powerful folks had had committed criminal wrongdoing. But she was basically saying, look, there's this guy who's doing these things that are wrong, and he's associated with people who are very powerful, including Bill. Clint, that story in 2019 was significant because we were trying to establish. My colleague Mike Baker was trying to establish. Okay, when was the first time the authorities learned, potentially learned about Epstein? And it is out of that woman going to the authorities in the hopes that someone will hold Epstein accountable, that she makes a disclosure about her interactions with Trump.

Tim Miller (8:17)

So, Tim Hafey, guess who said this? Quote, house Republicans, put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are. I won't make you guess. It was Kash Patel. Now, no one is saying that Trump's a pedophile, but the charged pedophile is dead. His name is Jeffrey Epstein. And the files that Cash Patel and Dan Bongino have clamored for include all sorts of names as Mike and his colleagues are reporting, including Donald Trump. Where do you think we are in terms of, of what is inside those files? That again, it's Elon Musk who first, I think, went public with this shocking message. He tweeted, donald Trump is in the Epstein files. It was part of a brawl between the two. I don't know what his state of claiming that to be true and I don't actually know what he saw that suggests he knew that. But Mike and his colleague's reporting certainly corroborates Elon Musk's tweet. But how much do you think is public and how much more is there sort of under the surface if we're using an iceberg analogy?

Tim Hafey (9:27)

Yeah, Nicole, I totally agree with Mike that there is a lot more that was gathered than what is in the grand jury transcripts that the department has now asked to be released. Having done this dozens of times myself. Investigations are like a funnel. Lots of information comes in to the top of the funnel and it's sifted for relevance, it's sifted for corroboration, for reliability, for consistency with other evidence. And then out the bottom of the funnel comes a relatively small percentage of that evidence that specifically implicates individuals in charged criminal offenses. So my guess is in the Epstein files writ large, there's a lot of information, much like Mike's reporting about allegations that were made by people over the years. Very little of that would likely be in these grand jury transcripts. The precise issue before the grand jury back when Ms. Maxwell and Mr. Epstein were indicted was were they personally involved in the violations of federal criminal law? That was the evidence that was put before the grand jury, not everything else from that funnel. So, Nicole, I don't know what else is in that funnel. I don't know how much of it was corroborated, how much of it was not. You often in a big, broad ranging investigation get stuff that you frankly don't credit, that you don't think is accurate. Certainly doesn't meet the evidentiary test of reliability to be introduced in a proceeding, grand jury or trial proceeding. So there's probably lots and lots of threads that some of which were pursued, some of which were not pursued, but none of that is likely to be in the grand jury but for very specific allegations about crimes committed by Maxwell and Epstein.

Tim Miller (11:09)

So Tim Miller, Mike and Tim, because they are careful and responsible people, have very specifically articulated and actually between the two of them, fine tuned, almost as visual for Us, Right. An investigation is a funnel. It takes in lots of stuff and out the bottom comes corroborated things that they take to the bank that prove guilt, they hope, in a jury of criminality. The problem for Donald Trump is that Keshe Patel didn't go on podcasts and ask for, you know, the corroborated stuff. He didn't go on and describe a funnel. They have been asking for 10 years for all the tapes, all the texts, all the emails, all the videos, all of the investigative fodder, which includes accounts like Ms. Farmers. Where do you think we are in terms of this story unspooling?

Tim Miller (12:04)

I love how you kind of slightly suggested that I might be a little bit more irresponsible in the accusations than Mike and Tim.

Tim Miller (12:11)

Not irresponsible, but just knit the worlds together. Right. Like an investigative journalist and a lawyer and a prosecutor. They're using a scalpel. The Trump world has never used a scalpel when it comes to this story. They're swinging away with the most imprecise weapons, bashing at the people that they think are hiding deep inside the crevices of an investigative file. They're not asking. I mean, this is what they're asking for, the actual witness testimony and all the names that came up in the course of a decades long investigation.

Tim Miller (12:43)

Yeah, no, I'm just teasing. That's exactly right. And here's the problem that Cash is in, especially if we believe what Dick Durbin put out, I guess was overnight saying essentially that the reporting that they're getting, Senate Democrats are getting is that in March, somebody, whether it be Pam Bondi or Cash Patel or Dan Bongino, had ordered FBI agents to go through tens of thousands of pages of material related to this case. And in part of doing that, flagging times where Donald Trump was mentioned. So like, to your point, if you're going to take the broadest view of all this, then people should see everything that was in there. And as far as we know, if the FBI agents did what Dick Durbin is saying, that they have information that they did, then we would presume that they would have a file or a new file or a new log, if you will, that gather all the Donald Trump mentions and there's really good reason to believe that there's a lot of them. You know, you mentioned this case with Farmer, which I think this, this victim case is really important. I don't know if there are others like me out there, but I've become re obsessed with this. I'd read all the Julie Brown stories years ago. But I rewatched the documentary over the weekend. Is that 1996 FBI report that they're referencing that was massive in getting Epstein arrested the very first time, because initially it was the local Palm beach police that had, you know, had tips related to Epstein. But in order to level it up to an FBI case, they kind of needed evidence that this was happening interstate. And so it was that very 1996 report that, like, led to the initial FBI investigation into Epstein. So if it's in that same report that this woman says, well, Donald Trump was also involved and not that he was abusing her, but that, you know, he was in the office with Donald Trump, and that Epstein says to Trump, you know, this one's not for you, or something to that effect. I might not have that quote exactly right. But she's not for you. That is extremely damning. I mean, like, that's not just. That is certainly in the types of things that Cash Patel and Dan Bongino and all these guys have been railing for years that we wanna see and know, because they assumed it was gonna be all of the people that they hate. And so that is just one example of this. We have the Stacey Williams testimony that Epstein brought Trump into her house. We could go on and on. And so to me, it is extremely dam. It's exactly what they've been asking for for years. And it's there. If we believe what Durbin put out, there's good reason to believe that this is an explicit cover up by either Patel or Bondi or Trump because they asked FBI agents to look through these materials. Trump is very likely in them, and then they decided not to put it out?

Tim Miller (15:24)

Yeah. I mean, Mike, is there anything else you can tell us about her account that's in the FBI report that she reports in 96 again years later, and that's in the New York Times this morning. Quote, this one's not for you, was it? Is it. Is that to suggest that others were. Or what do. What do investigators. Or maybe it's a question for Tim Hafey. I mean, what. What did, what did that mean?

Mike Schmidt (15:53)

Well, look, one of the problems with the, the Epstein story is that you. Look, we can only see and do so much of this. Epstein was indicted. There was an enormous amount of evidence the government had collected, collected by Maureen Comey, who was leading the prosecution. And all of that evidence is never turned over to Epstein's side to see what the government truly had behind the evidence. Because Epstein kills himself about a month after he's arrested. What we do know about this witness account is that in 2000, in the mid 2000, around 2006, when this woman is interviewed, she tells them about how she went to the NYPD a decade earlier and how the NYPD told her to go to the FBI. Now, that's a small piece of evidence, but that part is in an unredacted copy of notes from an interview that was done with her at the time. So it sort of, in a sense, backs up the story that she's telling about what she did in 1996 when she called the NYPD to first report this. It's a small piece of information. It's in a larger document that's heavily redacted. We don't know if Trump's name is underneath those redactions, but it's that type of reporting that we're dealing with here. We're dealing with stuff that happened many decades ago and stuff that is still in FBI files. The full evidence that the government had against Epstein was never seen because he never went to trial. To Tim's point, to Tim Hafey's point, the grand jury testimony is large, that they would release, is going to focus directly on the criminality, directly on what they have in terms of, like, enough to get. To get charges and get an indictment. So it's not going to have the other stuff that an investigation develops. So, in a sense, they can release all the grand jury testimony and they can release it all unredacted and let it all be out there, but it's still not going to be what Trump's allies and supporters want, because they want the real, the whole thing, so they can see every little person who was tied into this. So it's challenging to explain to people. It's challenging to understand. Epstein's been dead for several years. Most people who were victims of this do not want to talk about it. And a lot of it is still under seal and protected by a government seal.

Tim Miller (18:39)

Tim, you are, you know, sort of the foremost expert on the intersection of extremism in our politics and conspiracy theories that drive people to violence. Tim Hafey from Charlottesville to January 6th. This conspiracy theory, for me at least flew a little bit under the radar. I mean, I was cognizant of their interest in the Epstein files, but I have really, over the last couple months, had to do some of the work that Tim Miller's talking about. I've gone back and listened to more interviews that Kaj Patel and Dan Bongino have done on this topic. More Bongino more as a host than a subject, but Patel as a subject. And the promises to the MAGA base are explicit. When we are in power, we will release everything, every name. We will. And the pressure on elected Republicans. That's the Cash Patel quote. House Republicans, put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are. Again, I'm not suggesting Trump is one, but the demand was for every name swept up in the process of investigating Jeffrey Epstein over decades. It was not the grand jury testimony that led to the indictments of Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell. So what bet are they making that their base is stupid? Or something I'm missing?

Tim Hafey (20:05)

Yeah, what you're putting your finger on, Nicole, is exactly right. The talking point, the theory, the conspiracy, if you will, for years, has not just been. There's a guy in Florida who likes young girls and introduces them to friends. It is much more sinister than that. It's that this has been an organized effort to facilitate pedophilia for the benefit of powerful elites and then hide it, almost to the point where there's. Part of the conspiracy theory is that Epstein didn't commit suicide, but was actually killed to protect those people, that he facilitated their pedophilia. Right. That is a deep, state sinister conspiracy, one of many that have been fomented by some of the people you're talking about. It's very easy for a podcast or a politician to make those kind of allegations, but that's very different from what a prosecutor has to do. Right. A prosecutor has to go to court and has to be able to back up and prove those allegations. So Cash Patel was on the outside for years and made all kinds of incendiary claims about some kind of conspiracy beyond just Epstein liking young girls. Right. Keep in mind the extent of it that's been articulated by him and others now that he's sitting in the chair of an FBI director and he has to actually. Statements on evidence. Very, very different right now. There's no client list and. Well, there's really nothing to see here. Right. Facts matter, Nicole. And it's very irresponsible for podcasters, for politicians, for lots of people to stoke these crazy conspiracy theories based on nothing but speculation. You're right. They have created an expectation that there's lots of stuff in there, not just about young girls, but about a broader effort to sort of enable this bad behavior and cover up even a murder. And to the extent there's nothing like that in the files, I don't know what's in the files, but they created the expectation that that is in the files. And that's why this is such a powerful story that is not going to go away in my view, anytime soon, Right?

Tim Miller (22:01)

Certainly not with a narrow drip release of something totally unrelated to the conspiracy story they've told for years now. I didn't even get to the other piece of reporting, but I want to talk to all three of you about it. So no one's going anywhere. Also ahead for us, what does Trump do when he's under pressure? He tries to change the subject. And playing that part for him is the director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard. She's made claims of interference in the Russia investigation that don't add up. We'll tell you about it. Plus, after 125 days and then the 20 notorious prison in El Salvador, a gay asylum seeker, Andre Hernandez Romero is now free. But he's not in the US where he wants to be. He's back in Venezuela as part of a prisoner swap the Trump administration did, but the Venezuelan government. We'll talk about that development and later in the broadcast, the reality of a lame duck presidency sinking in for Donald Trump. He isn't just facing a wave of fury from his own base over handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case. A large swath of the general public has completely soured on his handling of two issues that used to be strengths for him, the economy and immigration. People do not like what they're seeing. We'll bring you all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Nicole Wallace (23:24)

MSNBC Films presents Season 2 of Leguizamo does America, an NBC News Studios production on the next episode. John Leguizamo travels to New Orleans Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC and streaming on Peacock. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access. Add free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

Tim Miller (24:12)

He has said that he wants all the credible files related to Epstein to be released. He's asked the the Attorney General to request the grand jury files of the court. All of that is in process right now. My belief is we need the administration to have the space to do what it is doing.

Tim Miller (24:27)

And if further congressional action is necessary.

Tim Miller (24:30)

Or appropriate, then we'll look at that. But I don't think we're at that point right now because we agree with the President.

Mike Schmidt (24:34)

So no vote. No vote on this resolution.

Tim Miller (24:38)

This is the White House Director of Legislative Affairs. I'm just kidding. That was the Speaker, Tim Miller. This is an issue that should be easy for them, like even easier than tariffs, which their voters don't want. Even easier then. I mean, it should all be pretty easy because the voters, their voters do not want cuts to Medicaid, but their voters are ravenous for the Epstein files and they can't even vote to release them. What is this?

Tim Miller (25:08)

It's a pickle for Mike Johnson. You think it's an easy one, but here's the problem. Yeah, sure, it's an easy one with the base voters. It's easy to know what they want in the grand scheme of things. But he can't get on the wrong side of Donald Trump. I mean, there's a graveyard of past Republican speakers who got on the wrong side of Donald Trump on various issues. And so I think that is his first and foremost priority. I think that Mike Johnson is almost certainly not, I guess, who knows? But there's good reason he would not be read in on whatever it was that was behind the decision for Donald Trump or Pam Bondi to not release these additional files. And so if you're Mike Johnson, it's like, I guess let's try to kick the can down the road. It's a bigger problem than those other mentions you, those other issues you mentioned. Right. Because tariffs and Medicaid cuts do not inspire the passions of the base or the passions of the MAGA media like this does. And just for us, coming on, you know, the Theo Vaughn, one of those manosphere podcasters who interviewed J.D. vance twice, I think, and Trump once he is posting, he's from Louisiana, like Mike Johnson. He's posting at his fellow Louisiana Mike Johnson. He's like, let bring this to the floor. Ro Khanna. It's a bipartisan bill. Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie, why won't you bring this to the floo? You're in a bad way. You know, if you're Mike Johnson and you have random, if you have these huge podcasters with massive megaphones, like calling you out saying, bring this to the floor, and you're now put in this position where you have to be the one standing in the way of more information about these child sex crimes. It's a really bad position for him. To be in.

Tim Miller (26:40)

Well, and Tim Miller wasn't. I mean, I don't feel bad for him that he's in a pickle, but wasn't he in a different position on this like, like 72 hours ago? Didn't he have a different position on one of those manosphere podcasts a week ago?

Tim Miller (26:55)

He did. I also don't feel bad for him being on a picologist describing like what he's, he's stuck between Trump and the, and the base. Right. In the MAGA media.

Tim Miller (27:03)

Right.

Tim Miller (27:03)

That's, that's where he is. Usually they're aligned on all of that. Cuz Trump usually gets in line with where the base is or brings the base along. This is a rare issue where they've not been able to do that. So yeah, no, he has totally flipped on this. You know, I thought that was interesting the other day. That actually piqued my interest more than this. Right. This idea that he was going to buck Trump to push this through. So I'm not surprised that he's now gotten in line. But you know, again, I mean there's at some level, if you're Mike Johnson, it's kind of like why not bring this up and kind of dump this on the executive branch. This is your issue to deal with. Anyway, you guys could decide what to release. But I think in the meantime he's decided that his prime objective is staying in Trump's good graces.

Tim Miller (27:46)

Let me read from the other piece of reporting in the New York Times this morning. This is inside the long friendship between Trump and Epstein. Quote, in the early 90s when Trump hosted a party at Mar a Lago for young women in a so called calendar girl competition. Mr. Epstein was the only other guest. According to George Hornery, a Florida based businessman who arranged the event. He recalled being surprised that Mr. Epstein was the only other person on the guest list. Quote, I said, Donald, this is supposed to be a party with VIPs Mr. Horner Horani told the New York Times in 2019. You're telling me it's you and Epstein? His then girlfriend and business partner Jill Harth later accused Trump of sexual misconduct on the night of the party. In a lawsuit, she said that Trump took her into a bedroom and forcibly kissed and fondled her and restrained her from leaving. She also said that a 22 year old contestant told her that Trump later that night crawled into her bed uninvited. Ms. Hart dropped her suit in 97 after a related case filed by her boyfriend was settled by Trump who has denied her allegations. Mike Schmidt, this is one of the oldest fact patterns. Of the nearly two dozen accusations of sexual misconduct against Donald Trump. I think the only one that's been adjudicated may be E. Jean Carroll. And Donald Trump was found liable for sexual abuse and defamation in that case. But just talk about this part of the story reemerging because of the base's appetite for all these names and, and the presence, as you've reported, of Donald Trump in the FBI files.

Mike Schmidt (29:22)

Well, to me, what, what this situation that Trump finds himself in, the sort of, on the inability to control the base, on being, you know, believing a conspiracy theory, it comes back to the beginning of the Trump story for me. So for me, the Trump story starts in Benghazi in 2012. And in the aftermath of that attack, the far right wing media and folks on Fox News stoked the base in conspiracy theories about what happened in Benghazi, that there was some sort of Obama cover up, that there was something that the government had done, our own government had done, maliciously or incorrectly, that that was more than just the fact that our outpost at Benghazi had been attacked. The fervor about that was so great that eventually Congress had to appoint a special committee to investigate that attack. And as part of that investigation, when that investigation soaked up a lot of things, they were able to learn about Hillary Clinton's email server and at least a disclosure about Hillary Clinton's email server. What I'm trying to say about this is that these types of conspiracy theories, when they dip the base in the lighter fluid of conspiracy theories and the base is ravenous to try and prove what they have been told to be true. It can just have a mind of its own and it can have an energy of its own and it can continue on in ways that are unintended now because for example, when they started doing that on Benghazi, they didn't think they were going to find Hillary Clinton's email server. In that sense, it really helped them. And in many senses, stoking conspiracy theories has helped them. It helped coalesce people around them to vote for Donald Trump in 2024. But you can't necessarily control them. And I think that's what we're trying, that we're seeing here is that Trump is basically in his administration, to use the word you guys were using is in this pickle where they're trying to satisfy a base that has been told time and time again something exists that's really horrific that they want to totally get to the bottom of and that they have joined this movement to get to the bottom of and that Donald Trump is supposed to be the leader to hold these people accountable. And that has a mind of its own.

Tim Miller (32:01)

Thank you for your reporting on the story. Tim Hafey and Tim Miller stick around a little bit longer after the break for us. Nearly nine years after the 2016, 2016 election and the Trump administration is still desperately trying to prove another conspiracy theory and rewrite the fact pattern around Russian interference, we'll ask why now? Don't go anywhere.

Tim Hafey (32:29)

What is horrifying about this whole lie out of Gabbard is number one, it puts people at risk. And right now the mouth breathers on MAGA online are just going out of their minds based on a lie. And number two, the intelligence community is full of very, very good people who do their jobs every single day. And now they're watching their leader do something that each and every one of them knows is dishonest and it is a really, really bad thing for the safety and security of the American people when that dynamic is out there.

Tim Miller (33:02)

Congressman Jim Himes blasting Dni Tulsi Gabbard's quote, lie, her attempt to turn the spotlight perhaps away from the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and Donald Trump's plunging poll numbers by resorting to the typical playbook of Donald Trump and his allies, fabricating and relitigating a nine year old assessment that was just recently re corroborated by Mr. Ratcliffe, Donald Trump's handpicked CIA director, that Russia interfered in the 2016 election in favor of Donald Trump. Gabbard released a report on Friday that she claims proves that the Obama administration intelligence officials manipulated and withheld evidence that Russia did not hack voting machines to change the outcome of the election, accusing those officials of a quote, treasonous conspiracy in 2016, end quote, and referring them to the Justice Department for criminal investigation. The problems here are many. No investigation contended that Russia manipulated votes in 2016. Not the initial assessment by intelligence officials. Not the nearly two year long Mueller investigation, not the investigation by the Bill Barr appointed special counsel John Durham and not the investigation by the Republican led Senate Intelligence Committee led by now Secretary of State Marco Rubio. As the New York Times reports, those three investigations quote, back the findings of American spy agencies in late 2016 that Russia was trying to influence the election by damaging Ms. Clinton's campaign and bolstering Mr. Trump, end quote. Adding that quote, the new report by Ms. Gabbard staff conflates those two activities by the Russians and tries to suggest that the Obama administration and force the intelligence community to alter its conclusions, end quote. Joining our coverage is former CIA director, now MSNBC Senior National Security Analyst John Brennan. Tim Hafey and Tim Miller are here as well. Director Brennan, your reaction to what Ms. Gabbard is doing?

Nicole Wallace (35:00)

Well, here we are again, Nicole. It is unsurprising, yet very troubling and very dangerous, as Representative Hyde said, that the person who leads our intelligence community today would put out something that just mischaracterizes and misrepresents in a wholesale manner what the intelligence community did during the 2016 run up to the presidential election. Again, the misrepresentations just are ludicrous. You know, when I read through the material, it reminded me of, you know, sort of a third rate lawyer who realizes she got nothing to defend her client and is going to put together an absurd brief that's laughable on its face because anybody who looks at the intelligence community assessment and the work that was done will see that it was very carefully worded, meticulously done, and it stands up to scrutiny in time. As you pointed out, there have been numerous reviews about it and it didn't say any of the things that Tulsa Gabbard alleges it said or didn't say. And I really do encourage people to read it because it was very clear in terms of what it said that the Russians were using, as at President Putin's direction, influence operations to try to denigrate Hillary Clinton, try to increase the prospects for Donald Trump's election, and also just to undermine the integrity of our election system. And again, those were the primary judgments. Again, they are ones that certainly I and others who are involved continue to stand behind.

Tim Miller (36:34)

I guess, importantly, they're also Corroborated by Trump 2.0 CIA Director John Ratcliffe, who in the same document in which he smears you, the assessment is the same. I mean, where did she come up with her own unique set of allegations from Director Brenham?

Nicole Wallace (36:56)

Well, unfortunately, I think she's been able to pull some people together who are going to put together this brief that again, is ludicrous in terms of the substance, the content of it. And then they make these specious allegations. And again, as I said, like a lawyer's brief, what she's doing is pushing this out into the social media environment and trying to again, gain some attention and to ingratiate herself with Donald Trump, because clearly, over the past several weeks, it appears as though she has lost some favor and is trying to now use this as an opportunity to carry favor once again. But again, the specious allegations that Both she and Radcliffe are making, based on the things that they're putting out really are quite concerning and quite dangerous.

Tim Miller (37:42)

Tim Hafey, I know you always come back to facts and your faith in it. Does this shake that faith?

Tim Hafey (37:48)

No. Nicole, let's talk facts for a minute. There's a huge difference between election influence and election interference. One occurred, the other did not. There's uncontroverted evidence that the Russian government tried to influence the 2016 election and subsequent elections by putting forth through social media channels damaging information about Hillary Clinton and others and stoking dissent within America. That is a fundamentally different animal from election interference, of which there's no evidence. Our election systems in this country are incredibly secure. We do this well. It's done by state officials. And there's no evidence that the Russians were able to penetrate any electronic voting systems interfering with the vote count or the casting of ballots. So what this report seems to have done is conflate the two is to elevate interference or influence to the realm of interference. That's just false. Again, consistently, Republicans, Democrats, intelligence committees, members of Congress have looked at this, found we have influence, we don't have interference. Those are the uncontroverted facts.

Tim Miller (38:59)

Director John Brennan, Tim Hafey, thank you both so much for joining us. Tim sticks around a little bit longer. Coming up for us, hundreds of Venezuelan migrants are now free from a prison in El Salvador thanks to a prisoner swap. We'll talk about one of them with Tim next. Andri is an asylum seeker from Venezuela. He came to the US Last year when he was in Venezuela as a gay man. He faced incredible discrimination. He also was politically persecuted. He was was physically hurt. He was followed home by police officers. So he made the incredibly difficult decision to come to the US but he had a really rich life there. He's been in a theater troupe since he was seven years old. He actually worked on the Miss Venezuela pageant. He was in pageants himself as a contestant.

Tim Miller (39:57)

Now, is that common in Venezuela for trend Naragua men to be working on the Miss Venezuela pageant?

Tim Miller (40:03)

You know, I don't think that's been a cover I've seen before. Yeah, that was last month when our friend Tim Miller and our other friends at the Bulwark hosted a fundraiser to support Andre Hernandez Romero and others who were wrongly deported to El Salvador without due process rights. We have an update to Andre's story. He has been freed from the notorious mega prison CE COT in El Salvador after being held there for 125 days. He was detained after he was questioned about his tattoos with immigration authorities, which immigration authorities associated with the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua. Romero is back in Venezuela now because of a large scale prisoner swap between VENEZUELA and the U.S. we're back with Tim. Tim, this story was always on my radar, but you elevated it even higher with your astute questions about how and why he was swept up. Do you have any intel or any sen. Of how he's doing?

Tim Miller (41:07)

I talked to Lindsey Taslowski, who's in that interview, who was doing the real hard work as a lawyer on the front lines yesterday. And she said that he's talked to his mother. They're expecting that he's going to be released today or tomorrow. We don't know he's going through a processing in Venezuela. There's some hope that obviously he fled Venezuela. It's the tragedy of all this is all of these men, or at least many of them, were fleeing persecution in Venezuela, fleeing communism to come seek freedom and opportunity in America like so many have over the last hundreds of years. And instead we've sent them to a torture prison and now they've been sent back home to Venezuela. So thank goodness they're free, but they're back in this country. Right. So there is this unknown still. There's this hope that this ends up being a PR win a little bit for Maduro, that he was able to be the human rights advocate. That's how bad America has acted. We've made the communist dictator of Venezuela look like the pro human rights advocate. But there's some hope that there'll be pressure on him to kind of treat these men well so he can get the PR credit for bringing them back home. So that's the hope. We know he's at least talked to his mother for the first time in 125 days. So that's heartwarming. Though the whole story is still pretty.

Tim Miller (42:25)

Mad at and Trump is in overdrive on this with his approval ratings going down as fast as his deportations are going up.

Tim Miller (42:36)

Yeah, look, and I think this is why it's been important to advocate on this and something I've been pushing Democrats and others to do from this day one, you know, his immigration agenda is not popular. I think there's folks that are afraid to engage him on this because they do think that the border, the closing of the border is a popular issue. But, but these horrible deportations, the massed ICE raids, regular people don't like this in this country. And I think you can see it in his numbers. And so while it's Good. That this El Salvador gambit has failed. These men have been released for now. We'll see what happens in the future. Simultaneously, they just got 45 billion in this last house budget for more domestic detention centers. Tom Holman and Stephen Miller aren't backing off. So I do think there's more of this to come, and I think it's going to be a continued fight for immigrant defenders and other groups like that. But, you know, I think that the fact that this El Salvador plan totally failed, that those men have all been released, that his poll numbers have gone down, shows that, like, you can beat him if you fight him on these issues. And that there's still at some level a feeling in America that, that, well, maybe they don't support all immigrants staying here. They do not support this horrific deportation regime that him and Marco Rubio and Stephen Miller and Tom Homan have been putting in place.

Tim Miller (43:58)

I want to put up one more poll number. I have to sneak in a quick break. Will you stick around two more minutes for us?

Tim Miller (44:04)

Of course.

Tim Miller (44:06)

We'll be right back. Tim Miller, this is the sound of my slocap clap. Because Tom Homan and Stephen Miller have done what many before them couldn't. They have made immigration great again in the eyes of the American people. 79% of all Americans believe that immigration is a good thing. That is up 15 points since a year before that when they were waving mass deportation signs around at Trump's convention. Your thoughts?

Tim Miller (44:34)

Well, it's minor good news, but we'll take the good news. We can get it these days, Nicole. And I think here's the thing. These guys really could have shut down the border and done nothing else or just really done what they said they were gonna do. Go after only violent criminals in this country. And I think at a very positive popular immigration agenda. But they are committed to the mass deportation now agenda. And it kind of reminds me of the gay marriage. Turned out everybody had a gay person in their family or friend group and poll numbers changed. Right. Everybody touches an immigrant in their life, even if they're not. And once they start to hear the horror stories in their communities and see them on TV and see these stories of these men we sent to a concentration camp with no due process, it's not surprising to me that numbers are changing and it is their fault for overreaching. And hopefully, hopefully, the overreach doesn't continue, but hopefully the poll numbers do.

Tim Miller (45:26)

Tim Miller, thank you so much for spending the hour with us on all these stories. Coming up in the next hour of Deadline White House brand new polling. More of it shows that the warning lights, politically speaking, are flashing red for Donald Trump right now. We'll talk about it after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.

Nicole Wallace (45:44)

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

Tim Miller (46:02)

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

Nicole Wallace (46:06)

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.

Tim Miller (46:32)

The president blaming Democrats for this disaster.

Eric Swalwell (46:34)

Disaster.

Tim Miller (46:35)

Jake is like that CEO that got caught on camera blaming Coldplay, okay? Like this is his making. He was president when Epstein got indicted for these charges and went to prison. He was president when Epstein committed suicide. The people that have been fomenting this are right wing influencers, members of Congress. People have a reason that they want to know what's in there. They believe the president when he said there's stuff in there that people should see. Hi again, everyone. It's now five o' clock in the East. We will admit here on this program one thing that Donald Trump is quite good at, and that is, at least in the eyes of his own base, driving the narrative. He knows how to get his people talking and how to change the topic as far as they're concerned whenever he wants. So at the moment, it's his loss of that usual command and control of the narrative over which his base sees that makes the Epstein scandal so intriguing from a political perspective for him him, it's clear he has lost his grip. You see Trump's desperation whenever he lashes out at his own voters or when he makes up crazy claims that Democrats, some Democrat somewhere is to blame. As Susan Page writes in USA Today, Epstein's ghost is beginning to haunt the White House. The very tools that help win Trump two terms, the openness to conspiracy, the distrust of elites, the eruption of a viral moment, have now turned to bedevil, hymn him. We're seeing that bear out in the polls now. Like this one where 75% of all Americans are dissatisfied with the Trump administration's handling of matters related to Jeffrey Epstein. Or this one where 69% of all Americans think the government led by Donald Trump is hiding details about Epstein's alleged client list, including notably 62% of Trump supporters. Donald Trump's second term is now officially six months old. And according to the latest measurements of public sentiment, Donald Trump finds himself much weaker politically than when he first took office. The Epstein case is of course, causing controversy and division among his supporters. But it isn't just that. On his key signature issues, immigration and the economy, support from all voters is sliding quickly. A new Gallup poll shows a remarkable change among the public's feelings on immigration. Last year, 55% of Americans said they wanted a reduction in immigration. Today, that has dropped to just 30%. Who want to see that? We showed you a couple minutes ago. Gallup also finds that a record 79% of all Americans now believe that immigration is a, quote, good thing for the country. That is a 15 point jump from one year ago. As for the issue 2024 voters said had the most impact on how they voted and the issue that voters most had faith in Donald Trump on, the economy, support there is dropping for Donald Trump as well. 64% of all Americans disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of inflation. That's 10% more that disapprove from March. And as more of his tariffs are set to kick in in a few weeks, that number is expected to climb. Another poll last week showed that just 38% of Americans approve of his handling of the economy, while a whopping 60% disapprove. Dan Balz in his latest piece in the Washington Post takes a look at these surveys and concludes this quote. Trump's six month report card provides indications that the public has not fully bought into his program. Warnings that he cannot easily ignore. That is where we start the hour. Some of our favorite experts and friends. Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California joins us. Also joining us, MSNBC senior contributing editor Michelle Norris is here and Princeton University professor, MSNBC political analyst Eddie Glad is here as well. Congressman, we start with you and your reaction to what you're seeing in the polls.

Eric Swalwell (50:42)

Well, everyone wants to see the Epstein files. Nicole Maga wants to see it because they now fear Donald Trump is lying to them. Democrats want to see it because the reason we've always wanted to see the files, it's about the truth. It's not about politics. It's about victims. And the truth is many of these victims were teenage girls who had real wrongs done to them. And our job is to protect the most vulnerable. And actually, consistently over a decade, there's one group who has always known the danger of Donald Trump, and that's women. And it's no surprise that women, when it relates to Epstein, believe that he's lying to them. After all, they've seen their own rights just in the last few years over their own bodies taken away from them. So they have real questions about Donald Trump. And when it comes to women and Donald Trump, no one has been worse for them. That's why I believe he's in this free fall in the polls right now. It's women.

Tim Miller (51:40)

What is the state of bipartisan conversations about gaining access to all the files?

Eric Swalwell (51:49)

Last week, when I was walking to a vote, I kind of came right into a Republican as we were coming from different hallways, kind of almost clash into each other. And he put out his. His fist and gave me a fist bump and said, thank you. Now, I had just over the last couple days, been pretty loudly calling for the release of the files. And so Democrats are doing what Republicans are not willing to do. We are open for whistleblowers to come forward and share information that they may have. We're forcing votes in every imaginable committee. And we're showing when we are in the majority, we will use our subpoena power to seek accountability. But I wouldn't count on these guys one bit to do the right thing and release the files. And they have the subpoena power. They have that power. It doesn't take a vote in Congress. The speaker of the House could subpoena it today, but he won't, because he's going to do everything possible to protect Donald Trump.

Tim Miller (52:44)

Congressman, was it a priority to gain access to the files while President Biden was in office, or is it something that Elon Musk and Trump's own supporters have returned your attention to?

Eric Swalwell (52:57)

Well, as far back as 2019, because I wanted to go back and make sure that this was something that I had always been interested in. I was calling for the release, and I was calling for the resignation of Andrew Acosta, who was the Department of Labor secretary, who gave Epstein his first sweetheart deal. And Elijah Cummings on the Oversight Committee, led investigations into these files. And so I say, here we are now. Donald Trump is president. And. And if you think Joe Biden should have done more to release them, well, Donald Trump has the power to do that. And in the MAGA movement, if you know this movement, and I'm the son of two Republicans, married a girl from Southern Indiana, I'm around a lot of Republicans. The Epstein files are the flower to the cake. And Donald Trump is telling his supporters now, go ahead and eat Cake, but no flour, substitute it with something else. It doesn't work that way and that's why it's not going away way.

Tim Miller (53:50)

What is the next move? It seems like Speaker Johnson blanked or balked under pressure from Donald Trump. Arguably. What, what can you do in the minority to gain access to the files?

Eric Swalwell (54:03)

We're going to force more votes this week in committee. So anything that comes to the floor of the House, I know my, my colleagues on the Rules Committee will continue to make them vote down releasing the files. And so the of amount the American people will know the names of the Republicans who want to bury these files deep beneath the earth and are willing to take out all the shovels to prevent you from finding them. And so we're not going to let this go away. And again, we have to make it clear though, Nicole, this is about victims and protecting the most vulnerable in our community and knowing the names not of the victims, but knowing the names of those who exploited them.

Tim Miller (54:42)

So Cash Patel said to House Republicans, quote, put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are. Would you find yourself in agreement with Kash Patel, Congressman?

Eric Swalwell (54:54)

Yeah, he should put on his big boy pants and just release the files. Because he also said in that same interview when he was asked who is blocking the files from being released, he said it's the FBI director. Well, now you have the president, the, the attorney general and the FBI director. All who have access to them, all have promised them, are the ones who are burying them. It doesn't take an act of Congress. They can do it. But if they're not going to do it, I don't know why my Republican colleagues would protect them from doing it when they have the subpoena power. And if Republicans in Congress aren't going to do it, Democrats will force votes on this, will receive information about this, and when we are in the majority, we will deliver on this.

Tim Miller (55:30)

Michel, the congressman is correct in that this isn't going away. This is not. There have been a lot of policy debacles that Trump has successfully been able to divert attention away from, including Covid. He's back in the Oval Office after incompetently managing an historic and deadly pandemic. This is different. His voters believe with the fervor and with conviction that there is a cover up. Megyn Kelly has given voice to this theory that there's a cover up that Donald Trump is directing Pam Bondi to participate in. This goes from the grassroots to the media elites in MAGA world. And I wonder, as A journalist where you see this story in light of the two, rather bombshell reports in the New York Times over the weekend. One, a witness who says she gave her story to the FBI in 1996 and in about 2004 or 05, and the other, with documented examples corroborated about the deep friendship, deep ties for a time, between Jeffrey Epstein and Dr. Donald Trump.

Michelle Norris (56:40)

You know, these cases are difficult to prosecute. And because they're difficult to prosecute, they're difficult to get our arms around them to cover as journalists. I mean, one thing that is clear in this is that we should believe women. You know, we're looking for the release of these files. People are clamoring for the release of these files. The epitaph in this is that the women who were victims are now at the center of a story in a way that they have not been for many years, since Jeff Epstein left this earth. The congressman earlier had said that this Epstein case is the flower in the cake. I see it a little bit differently. It feels like it's the frosting on the cake, because when you talk about MAGA voters, you're talking about a big universe. So they're the people who are very loyal and will follow Trump into almost any scenario, and then suddenly they're reeling back and saying, wait a minute, I'm not down for this. But there are also people who voted for Trump, who are young men, for instance, first time voters, in many cases, fair weather voters at best, who don't like the way this looks. There are a lot of people who voted for Donald Trump, and people might not want to hear this, but there are a lot of people who voted more against Kamala Harris than for Donald Trump. And so they are not as loyal to him. And you're certainly seeing them, you know, moonwalk backwards because they don't like what they're seeing. Donald Trump needs to change the story right here, and he's trying to do it. And I don't think that he's going to be able to do it in part because of the dissatisfaction of his voters, but also because journalists are digging into this and finding things that have been, I don't want to say buried, but were not centered in this story in the past. And you mentioned those two bombshell reports. I suspect that we're going to see more of this kind of thing as people dig into a story that in many cases feels like it's ripped out of some sort of Hollywood novel. When you look at Epstein and his background and when you look at how this has been covered and how much of this that we still don't know about?

Tim Miller (58:36)

Yeah, Eddie, this requires some dissonance, but you see it sort of rearing its head in the public appearances and performances of sort of manosphere figures and Joe Rogan adjacent comedians. Shane Gillis hosted the ESPYs last week and had a joke about having a joke about the Epstein files. And his joke was something like it got deleted. I mean, this is all the way through the culture. There are Trump stories that never make it to culture. Right. The tariffs. I haven't seen much coverage of the tariffs in the manosphere. It's mostly over on cnbc. But the face plant politically in terms of carrying out a cover up of the Epstein files, which were promised not just to MAGA but to the new friends in the manosphere, has been a political debacle, the depths of which we can't completely mine because we don't live there. But from top to bottom, that part of his coalition is, it would seem, walking away from him on this issue.

Eddie Glaude (59:45)

Yeah. And you know, on a certain level, Nicole, first of all, it's great to see you. On a first, on a certain level, it kind of depresses me. I mean, it's a horrible, terrible story. Something cruel is at its center. Vile is at the center of the story. But the fact that, you know, the big beautiful bill didn't grab the attention, you know, the tariffs didn't grab the attention, you know, it speaks volumes about the country. But we also have to disentangle these various publics. I think, you know, you and Michel are right to talk about those independents, those folks who didn't want to vote for Kamala Harris walking away the manosphere, the those folks who are Joe Rogan adjacent, how they are engaging. But what's striking to me is the MAGA base, right. Those folks who seem to be, you know, ride or die with Donald Trump, because the Epstein files are shorthand for the center of gravity of MAGA world. And what's the center of gravity of magraworld? The deep state. And what the deep state has done, the bad things that it has done, the bad things that it continues to do. And so for Donald Trump, Trump, to tell those people, you know, there's nothing here. Right. Is to dismiss what anchors them in the political world. And so I'm really fascinated about how they are moving, the other folks, I expect. But how they are moving is really the story for me, at least in my head.

Tim Miller (61:02)

Yeah, that's a really important distinction, Congressman. And I wonder what, as Democrats, you think the opportunity is to maybe reengage some voters on issues of credibility and truth telling.

Eric Swalwell (61:16)

Yeah, and accountability and showing that at the end of the day we want the facts and we want accountability. And frankly, people just don't trust government. They don't like how much money is involved. They don't like the dirty maps that are drawn as congressional lines and local lines are put together. They don't like that members of Congress are allowed to trade stocks. And so we have a real opportunity, you know, to have a cleanup government agenda as we go into the midterms. And what we can do in a shadow way right now over the next 16 months because we are not helpless, is, as I said, is to receive information, to force votes, you know, to bring forward and animate, you know, the stories of individuals, you know, who have been affected by the corruption culture that Republicans are enabling.

Tim Miller (62:05)

Michel, it sounds like a pretty successful agenda to be against gerrymandered maps, to be for transparency. Do you sort of see a leaf turning over for the pro democracy party, the Democrats?

Michelle Norris (62:21)

Well, there's perhaps an opportunity for them to be heard in a different way, particularly from those voters who are not that ride or die MAGA loyal camp. Talk to a voter this weekend who said something really interesting, that this, the Epstein case, may be the thing that gives voters, that gives Trump voters an acceptable reason to walk away from him because of the, you know, that, that may give them the off ramp. You know, it wasn't the tariffs, it wasn't the deportation, it wasn't all the things that he's done in turning, you know, our culture into something that is much more coarse and much less humane and much more cruel. No, this is the thing that finally, you know, you can become eye blind to something. You don't see it and then when you see it, suddenly you see in a different way. And this is a voter who said, this is a Republican voter who said that in the circle that they travel in, that this is the one thing that they think among the faithful that might finally, might finally make them see him in a slightly different light. And that may give Republicans for some of those voters probably a small margin. But that's how elections are run, is at the margins. And it may give them enough of a chance to actually be heard in a way that they weren't in the past.

Tim Miller (63:33)

I heard this too, that it was never going to be the things that are inhumane. And like Eddie, I found this depressing, that it wasn't going to be denying due process to people and deporting them to heinous conditions. It was never going to be the betrayal on the economy, which blows my mind, but it was never going to be that everything got more expensive, that this was a thing that inside the most hardcore maga, whatever dinner party or clubhouse meeting or whatever it is that you could say, you know, I was ride or die. I thought Trump was great. I loved the assault on political correctness. But I'm out. He lied to my face on the Epstein files and I am out. Congressman, I want to ask you, who delivers that message? Who goes into the TreeHouse or the MAGA dinner party? But I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll have that conversation as soon as we come back. Also ahead, the Democratic state lawmaker looking to turn Texas blue will show you his message to the party heading into midterms. Also ahead for us, six months into Trump's second presidency and he's attempting to use fear to quell all dissent, to silence his critics and to threaten our very democracy. A former top Pentagon official will be our guest on this program on what that feels like, what that has looked like for him over the last couple months as he continues to speak out against the Trump administration. We'll also ask him what the pro democracy forces in the country need to do to band together and fight back. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Mike Schmidt (65:12)

This is very personal given how important my faith is to me. But, but I'm a Christian and I think there is no more dangerous form.

Tim Miller (65:19)

Of government than theocracy because the only.

Mike Schmidt (65:22)

Thing worse than a tyrant is a tyrant who thinks they're on a mission from God. I love this state, but I've just seen people like Dunham Wilkes just take us in this far right culture war direction at the expense of actual problems we need to solve. One of the bills that didn't pass last legislative session was a bill that would have provided funding for flood mitigation and emergency, emergency systems to get the word out when there's a flood. And we literally just saw the consequence of not passing that bill.

Tim Miller (65:55)

We are back with Congressman Swalwell, Michelle Norris and Eddie Glad. So, Eddie, that was James Talarico on Joe Rogan's podcast. He's a Democratic member of the Texas House of Representatives. He having a moment, I think is the best way to describe it. What do you think of what he's saying there?

Eddie Glaude (66:13)

I think it's absolutely powerful. I mean, we need more Matthew 25 Christians out here countering what I take to be A kind of callous interpretation of the gospel. We need them making the argument that it is consistent with Christian values to be attentive to the most vulnerable among us, to be attentive to the poor, to be attentive to the sick, to be, you know, to really, really, in so many ways be skeptical of the money changers and the like. So I think it's really important to understand the landscape, the ground upon which we fight, and not cede it to people who actually will interpret what you believe in a way that runs counter to your values. So I find it absolutely, I don't want to cede those values to those folk and say it's just theirs because there's a way in which you can interpret your own faith to be consistent with a set of policies that some people might interpret as far left, but it's actually just deeply Christian.

Tim Miller (67:12)

Congressman, I want to show you a little bit more of that interview. Here it is.

Mike Schmidt (67:19)

I remember when I was, I guess I was maybe kindergarten and someone in school, they were talking about political parties and I asked my mom what we were and she was like, we're Democrats because Democrats fight for the people.

Tim Miller (67:29)

That was what she said.

Mike Schmidt (67:31)

And my mother's still a Democrat today, but like, I don't know how much.

Tim Miller (67:34)

Our party is still true to that.

Mike Schmidt (67:37)

But I do know that that's our historical legacy, is the party that fights for, for, for the little guy. And I think we're at our best.

Tim Miller (67:47)

When we do that today.

Mike Schmidt (67:48)

We're at our worst when we stray from that.

Tim Miller (67:51)

I would agree with that.

Mike Schmidt (67:52)

So I, I still believe the Democratic Party can get back to those roots. I hope last year was a wake up call call.

Eric Swalwell (68:00)

Congressman, your reaction, very moving and gives me hope that even in Texas, because as you said, he is having a moment that that will land and resonate. I'll tell you, as a son of a cop, a blue collar kid, first in the family, go to college, I saw myself as a Democrat because Republicans fight for the rich and Democrats fight for, fight for the rest. But the larger point here, and you asked right before we went to a commercial, how do we reach more voters on this message of why they should have the Epstein files? What the assembly member is doing is he's going into more spaces and places. I made a decision after the last election when I saw that 68% of the voters identified as Christian in one way or another, that I needed to do Christian podcasts. And I've been doing, doing about one to two a month. I was raised as a Christian. I went to a Christian college on a soccer scholarship. But I would not talk about my faith because I thought it didn't really belong in politics. But what I've seen is that Republicans are weaponizing faith, and it's actually to our own disadvantage to not talk about it. And so we have to do things that are uncomfortable. And that's what I think is so inspiring about that interview.

Tim Miller (69:15)

Congressman, you've been very generous with your time. I know we lose you now. Thank you very much for spending time. I do have a day job.

Eric Swalwell (69:20)

Yeah, I'll get back to that.

Tim Miller (69:23)

But that's an interesting topic. I know Mike McCurry, former White House press secretary, has talked a lot about that and written about that. And that's an interesting thing for all of us to circle back on. I mean, Michelle, your thoughts about this moment, And I don't know that we have to get to the bottom of chicken or egg, whether the policies are so flagrantly unchristian that there's an opening for Democrats or their Democrats, unlike the Republicans, are listening to the voters and trying to learn from them. I mean, where do you think. Where do you think Democrats are in terms of making adjustments and making moves to appeal to more American voters?

Michelle Norris (69:59)

Well, I think more people should be doing on that side of the aisle, should be doing what the congressman is doing is actually going on Christian radio shows actually having these conversations. The Democrats have had a harder time managing a conversation around Christianity and Christian values, and even a conversation around values. It seems like they haven't been the masters of their own image. In this case, we just heard a slogan that would probably be pretty good for Democrats to seize upon. So simple. We are for the people. We fight for the people. I mean, when Barack Obama ran on a very simple message of hope, very Christian value, and having faith in the future, even when the evidence of why you should have faith is not always apparent to you, but we should recognize, and I'm sure Eddie will have a lot to say about this also, that Christianity has been weaponized in the past. It has been used to justify slavery in the past. It has been used to justify subjugation of all kinds. It has been used to keep women away from the vote. So we shouldn't be necessarily surprised that it's being weaponized right now. But what Democrats have to figure out is the antidote to that and how to actually do that. And one way is to actually lean into it instead of ceding that ground to someone else and saying, we don't understand it. It's toxic. It's going to blow back on us. You have to walk strong, walk proud. Like Martin Luther King said, no one can ride your back unless it's bent. You have to walk in there and understand that these are the values that we represent, explain what those values are and make someone else justify what they're doing. How what they're doing is Christian. How is it Christian to hold people in a deportation center that is called Alligator Alcatraz? How is it Christian to justify feeding people in a situation, as we just heard in a report today, and that their hands are held behind their back and they're forced to lean into their food and eat without their hands calling up an image of an animal, you know, like a dog at a trough in some way? How is that Christian? How is that Christian? So lean into that and explain your values and invite people to explain theirs. And how is that consistent? Consistent with the Bible that you hold in your hand? How is that consistent with the values that you say you hold dear and be willing to do that and be willing to do it over and over consistently and to do it with confidence as opp. To tiptoeing into that space?

Tim Miller (72:30)

Well, it's a brilliant point and a sort of brilliantly argued, Eddie. But let me just try to pierce the Trump bubble. This is a guy who held a Bible upside down and sold Bibles with his name. This is a guy laughing all the way to the bank that anyone would buy a Bible with his name on it. Like, how did we get here?

Eddie Glaude (72:55)

Oh, my God. Oh. That takes us back to the founding. You know, it's a complicated question, Nicole. There is a sense in which hypocrisy, rank hypocrisy defines our political moments. So you're right. It's not the case that, you know, by appealing to someone's faith that that might necessarily be convincing or compelling to that person. Because there's something else deeper underneath the surface that's motivating the other ugliness. That's motivating the kind of capitulation to what I'd say, to what I take to be evil. And so I think part of what has to happen in the face of that kind of recalcitrance, my friend, is that we have to still lean into our values. We have to stop trying to convince people who hold these noxious views that they shouldn't hold them. We should instead work as hard as we can to build a world that affirms the dignity and standing of every human being, no matter their zip code, no matter their gender, no matter their color and whatnot. So I think, what does it mean to lean into one's values? You don't lean into them just to convince another that they should lean in them too. Lean in theirs, too, but you lean in them because that's the way you're supposed to live. So we have to model decency and goodness in the midst of this crisis. Crisis. But to account for it requires of us, particularly in this 250th year, Nicole, a much harder look at the calloused heart of the nation and how we got that, how we got there.

Tim Miller (74:28)

You've given me chills, both of you. Michelle and Eddie, stick around because I think we get a little deeper in this next conversation. When we come back, a respected military leader not immune to Donald Trump's authoritarian, authoritarian moves and impulses. How Trump's politics of fear has infected all aspects of public and civic life and sharply eroded our democracy in just six months. We'll have that conversation next.

Frank Kendall (74:59)

The pattern we've seen here with Donald Trump is disturbing to me. He basically is conditioning the American people to the domestic use of the milk military in a way which is really unprecedented. I made a comment to people as I left my office as secretary of the Air Force that people need to think very carefully about where their lines were and where they would draw the line and what they were willing to do in order to do it or not.

Tim Miller (75:24)

That was last month on this program. That's former Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall calling out what he witnessed in terms of Donald Trump's authoritarian tactics and their impact inside the Pentagon. Also, the creation of a climate of fear created intentionally by Donald Trump to eliminate all dissent. Today, Kendall writes a chilling new account, an update about how that fear is now, quote, palpable at the Pentagon and within all institutions that make America great, within education and law and from businesses that Kendall says won't hire him. He writes this quote, Since I left the government in January, I have been told by several organizations that they either couldn't openly employ me, hold my security clearances, or otherwise be associated with someone visibly criticizing the administration. In one instance, I was told that a nonprofit that had asked me to serve as a distinguished fellow withdrew that offer because its senior leadership felt I had become too partisan. One corporate chief executive told me I had become toxic for writing and speaking about the administration's abuses of power. Quote, I have lost count of how many of my fellow national security professionals have told me that they are grateful that I have spoken out. But in the same breath say they are afraid to do the same. Former Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall joins us right now. Michelle and Eddie are back as well. I have not walked in your shoes, but I've had the privilege of being one of the places where people who serve in, in top national security posts for the country who see Donald Trump as trampling every great tradition of US national security norms and history and institutions have come. And I have to say I've never found someone who didn't have a history of serving under Democratic and Republican administrations and having no issue being faithful to the Constitution and to the country that the variable isn't you. The variable is Donald Trump. So I wonder if you can just talk a little bit more about what it means that national security officials could ever be seen as, quote, toxic because they speak out against abuses of power.

Frank Kendall (77:41)

Thanks, Nicole. It's good to be with you again. Yeah. This is unprecedented. I've served in administrations, in the military, as a civil servant and as a political appointee from different parties over almost over 50 years now. And I've never seen anything like this. I've never seen a climate like this where the threats, the implied threats in many cases are affecting behaviors as much as they are. And you walked through basically what I reported on this morning. It's everywhere. And I think it's expanding. It's not an accident that this climate of fear is being created. It's intentional and it's having a very chilling effect on a lot of people in our country.

Tim Miller (78:22)

So I had a former senior official at the FBI on the program who has been purged from the FBI for his friendship with Pete Strzok. But individuals like yourselves, and I've interviewed Director Brennan and Jim Comey who've been referred for criminal prosecution at the FBI and Department of Justice. I mean, what is, what is your sense of what we're not seeing? If there's this much retribution in public.

Frank Kendall (78:52)

I don't know what we're not seeing because we're not seeing it. But I am worried about what the future holds. What we did see a few years ago was a very aggressive attempt to overturn a legitimate election. And then the incitement of a mob would sacked the Capitol. I don't think that there is any boundary on what the Donald Trump person, personally and unfortunately, perhaps this administration he's created is going to be willing to do to ensure that they get what they want and that they hold on to power. I think it's a very dangerous time for our democracy. I've been asked why I'm Being, quote, so political at this point, when I never have been before in my life, I don't regard what I'm doing as being political. I regard what I'm doing as trying to save the Republic. I took an oath and I had a motto at West Point, where I graduated from of duty, Honor, country. And I came could not stand by and watch what's going on right now in my country without speaking out. It would be impossible for me.

Tim Miller (79:44)

What do you think secures the silence of so many people that see it the way you do but won't do anything?

Frank Kendall (79:51)

I think it's self interest. I don't in many cases. Sometimes it's organizational interest, sometimes it's personal interest. I spoke to a former colleague on the phone on the way into the studio today who was trying to find ways to to be more effective but has to make an income. And if you're from what I call the military industrial complex, you're probably going to work for a defense company, maybe a think tank in Washington or the government itself. That's the expertise you have. That's the places you're likely to be employed. And if the administration sends out the word and makes it very obvious that that's not in the interest of your organization, then what has happened to me? Now I'm in a position personally where I'm not terribly affected by this. I'm reasonably, you know, I've got more than one retirement check already and I'm, you know, reasonably well off financially, so I can just ignore that. I'm not worried about that too much. But a lot of other people have to make a living. You don't make a great deal of money working for the government, and people have to still make a living when they, when they come out. And that's the situation we have today.

Tim Miller (80:53)

Wouldn't it be amazing, though, if someone sitting on billions of dollars just created a democracy fund to get us through the next three and a half years? Let's have that conversation on the other side of a very short break. I want to pull Michelle and Eddie into it. We'll all be right back. We're back with Frank, Michelle and Eddie. I spent years covering, perhaps incessantly, the collapse of the Republican Party because I thought we would miss it. Not in the near term. It's probably a good thing in the near term, but I thought we'd miss it in the long term because when I worked in politics, the Republican Party used to be a place you could go if they ran one branch of government and there were abuses inside the military, they used to care about that, or distortions of intelligence or other trespasses of the Constitution or things that weren't something that the executive was. Was supposed to do and they didn't. Here's Adam Schiff on why that might be on Colbert. Let me play some of this.

Nicole Wallace (81:59)

I have to imagine that there are.

Tim Hafey (82:00)

A bunch of Republicans right now getting.

Nicole Wallace (82:02)

Threatened over the whole Jeffrey Epstein stuff.

Tim Hafey (82:05)

So once you unleash this idea that it's okay to use political violence and threats of violence, it doesn't end up discriminating just against one party. Judges are getting threatened, city councilmen are getting threatened, election workers are getting threatened. And so this is all part of this quite deliberate campaign to frighten people into submission. And the only way to push back on that is to say, piss off.

Tim Miller (82:37)

Piss off. It's simple, but it's hard. I mean, I wonder if I can ask you, if I can ask you, Frank, where people get courage to do that.

Frank Kendall (82:55)

That's a great question. I think you have to acknowledge the severity of the threat. And there's something going on here which is a lot more important than problems of small people like us, to quote the words movies and be willing then to step out. And they also need help. You need numbers, you need people. Doing it alone is kind of hard. Doing it with other people is a lot easier. So I think those two things. The other thing that I think is important here is that we have to penetrate the information bubbles that people live in. And people on the right for a very long time have been living in an information bubble, which is completely alternative reason reality than the world that I live in. But they're true believers about that reality and what you're seeing. You were talking about Epstein earlier. What has shocked that world, I think, is the reversal of Donald Trump on what would be done about the Epstein files. That has hit their trust of him. And I think that that's a vulnerability that he has that I think we need to be aware of and continue to press on. But it's going to be a long, hard campaign. I think there's no easy way out of this. But the more people that come forward and are outspoken human beings are enormously adoptive, and we can adopt to new realities and cope as best we can pretty well. And I'm afraid that people will be adopting to the reality of Donald Trump and his use of abuse of power, and we won't get the resistance or the reaction that we should have to preserve the Republic. That's my core concern.

Tim Miller (84:24)

Michel, the other Thing that people and I had a gentleman on who left MAGA and talks about MAGA that he said, I asked him what the best thing about MAGA was and he said community. I mean, the other lesson for Democrats is create a better community, you know, Right. One where you don't have to live with threats of violence if you betray the community. One where it maybe isn't all serious, but there's also some fun. I mean, I think that's what the manosphere proves about being adjacent to, to maga, that Joe Rogan and his community also includes a lot of comedians and other people. What do you think about the sort of efforts to create a better community on the pro democracy side?

Michelle Norris (85:04)

I think that it's interesting. I'm kind of stuck, Nicole, on this idea of fear, though. And I want to applaud Secretary Kendall for using his voice in the way that he has because it took courage to put pen to paper and do that. So good on you, sir, for doing this. But I think it's important and I'm sorry, I'm not exactly ask answer the question you asked, but I just want to lean in on this question of fear for just a minute because I think it's important to remember that the people who are dragging us into this autocratic state are also operating out of fear. They're afraid of something, too. When you look at a document like Project 2025, I see that document not just as a power grab, but as a document written by people who are afraid of living in a country that they don't understand stand afraid of living in a country that is diverse and complex, afraid of living in a country where they recognize, where they perhaps are unwilling to recognize that there are lots of different people who can figure out how to get along and that there's enough for everyone. And a lot of what they're, what they are doing is operating out of a position of fear, fear of a future that has basically already arrived. That's why we're seeing the deportation effort that we're seeing. It's trying to bring America backwards into something that feels more comfortable, comfortable to perhaps an at present majority culture. And when you recognize that people are also operating out of fear, maybe you're less willing to put yourself into a detention space of your. Of your own where you're acquiescing to something that doesn't feel good to you. Because when you do that, you are also putting yourself in a certain kind of prison. And it's important to recognize that sometimes the hardest jails to escape are the ones that are gateless, that you have the power to actually order your own steps in a different way. And people just have to figure out it's not easy. I recognize that it's not easy. But we know from history that when people do resist that it does make a difference. And there's lots of ways to do it. You don't always have to pen an opinion page, opinion article in the New York Times. Sometimes people just sort of do their work differently. Sometimes people work in community, behind the scenes activism, sometimes whispers. But I do think that people have to figure out if they don't want to live in the house that we're building right now, that they have to figure out how to use their voice, how to use their platforms and how to build community that will create a world that they actually want to live in and not just survive, but thrive.

Tim Miller (87:24)

I'd love to keep having this conversation with all three of you. Former Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall, thank you for what you wrote and for joining us to talk about it. Michelle and Eddie, thank you for spending the hour with us. When we come back, I'm going to show you my conversation with actor Jeff Daniel on a lot of these topics. It's the newest episode of the Best People podcast. What's next?

Nicole Wallace (87:47)

We've lost decency. We've lost civility.

Tim Miller (87:51)

We've lost respect for the rule of law. Lost it.

Nicole Wallace (87:56)

We have normalized verbal abuse on the Internet. We've normalized bullying. Out the window goes characteristics, character, integrity. I mean, nobody has great things to say about politicians. They never have. Go back to Mark Twain. But ideally, we're supposed to elect the best of us, not the worst of us.

Tim Miller (88:29)

For me, no one has articulated what I try to get at every day on this show, what our country is wrestling with right now, now quite as perfectly as Emmy winning actor Jeff Daniels does. He's my guest on this week's episode of the Best People Podcast. Scan the QR code on your screen to download it right now. I hope you'll listen to this and tell me exactly what you think. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.