← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Refuse to be silent"
00:41:20
Nicolle Wallace on unfolding events in Minneapolis after the shooting of Renee Good by a federal officer.
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- [00:00]
Michelle Norris
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- [01:37]
Nicole Wallace
Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in New York. Something is definitely happening in our country right now from coast to coast. Where that something leads us I don't know and I don't think anybody knows. But what it says that growing numbers of Americans are not happy with Donald Trump and the federal government he leads and that growing numbers of Americans refuse to be silent about that is undeniable. Right now there are a few of the protests that broke out last night on your screen now this is one. In Minneapolis. There were protests in other cities like Dallas, Seattle and New York. They of course follow the shooting death of 37 year old mother of three, Renee Nicole Good. This right here is a moment of silence that was held by the NBA basketball team, the Minnesota Timberwolves. Watch.
- [02:31]
Michelle Norris
We are saddened by the tragedy that.
- [02:33]
Nicole Wallace
Occurred yesterday in our Minneapolis community and.
- [02:36]
Reverend Al Sharpton
The loss of Renee Nicole Good.
- [02:39]
Nicole Wallace
Our thoughts are with her family and.
- [02:41]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Everyone affected and our hearts are with our community as we hope for healing and unity during this challenging time. Please join us in a moment of silen.
- [03:01]
Jason Hauser
Thank you.
- [03:04]
Nicole Wallace
One basketball fan shouting their go home ice. Others applauding. But the protests weren't just about what happened in Minneapolis. There was another ICE shooting Thursday in Portland, Oregon. Federal agents shot and injured two people. Both those people were taken to area hospitals. The Department of Homeland Security said that this shooting was also in self defense and that the two injured people were suspected gang members. And again, that that is what they're saying. That may turn out to be true. We don't know right now. Here's what the mayor of Portland, Keith Wilson, had to say.
- [03:40]
Tim Miller
Portland is not a training ground for militarized agents. When the administration talks about using full force, we are seeing what it means on our streets. The consequences are not abstract. They are felt in hospital rooms and living rooms, in the quiet moments when families try to make sense of what happened, what is happening. We know what the federal government says happened here. There was a time when we could take them at their word. That time is long past. That is why we are calling on ICE to halt all operations in Portland until a full and independent investigation can take place.
- [04:25]
Nicole Wallace
The Oregon Attorney General has also announced a formal investigation into the incidents in Portland today. The results of that investigation, as the mayor said, may find that what the federal government is saying about the shooting is true and accurate. That is always possible. But what's clear is that in this moment, the Trump administration has not earned the trust of anyone encountering these crises in their cities or their states, especially given their reaction to what happened in Minneapolis. The Trump administration has made claim after claim after claim that is being disputed or outright debunked, while making comments that suggest the outcome of any investigation they're doing is already determined, decided, which may be the case because only federal authorities have been allowed to take part in the investigation into the shooting. Here's what Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry had to say about that.
- [05:21]
Jason Hauser
Donald Trump said that Rene ran the ICE agent over. Don't take my word for it. Don't take their word for it. Watch the video from every single angle. I mean, the ICE agent walked away with a hip injury that he might.
- [05:43]
Tim Miller
As well have gotten from closing a.
- [05:45]
Jason Hauser
Refrigerator door with his hips. He was not injured. I've seen worse injuries from doing that, and so give me a break. No, he was not ran over. He walked out of there with a hop in his step.
- [06:04]
Nicole Wallace
Mayor Fry also reiterated his call for local authorities to be allowed to participate in the investigation because he says the federal government cannot be trusted. Minnesota officials have launched their own probe and called on residents to submit whatever video, evidence or other evidence they might have. That call came just hours before this video from the scene today was published by a Local conservative leaning Minnesota news outlet. And then amplified online by JD Vance, the Vice President of the United States. It is cell phone video taken by the agent who shot and killed Renee Nicole Goode. Here it is.
- [06:55]
Tim Miller
That's fine, dude. I'm not mad at.
- [06:57]
Michelle Norris
Boy, show your face.
- [06:59]
Tim Miller
I'm not mad at.
- [06:59]
Jason Hauser
That's okay.
- [07:00]
Michelle Norris
We don't change our plates every morning. Just so you know. It'll be the same plate when you come talk to us later. That's fine. U.S. citizen. You want to come at us? You want to come at us? I say go get yourself some lunch, big boy.
- [07:14]
Tim Miller
Go ahead.
- [07:15]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Out of the car.
- [07:16]
Tim Miller
Get out of the car.
- [07:18]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Get out of the car.
- [07:20]
Nicole Wallace
Whoa. Community in a country searching for answers after the shooting death of Renee Nicole Goode by ICE is where we start today. I want to bring in former top ICE and DHS official Jason Hauser. Also joining us, political analyst, host of the Bulwark Podcast. Tim Miller is here. And with me at the table, host of Politics Nation, president of the National Action Network, the Reverend Al Sharpton. We'll get to the video in a moment. I want to start as I have so many moments like this with you, about the thing that is intangible, the thing that we can't predict, but the thing that you sort of intuit and lead and understand what's happening in the streets of American cities near where the shooting occurred, far from where the shooting occurred. How do you assess this moment in terms of the public's reaction?
- [08:17]
Reverend Al Sharpton
I think the public reaction has been, first of all, it's organic, not organized by any group. National Action Network, naa, nobody. These are people that are outraged. And I think that is the real elements you need to build a shift in where the country's going. Cause we're seeing people that don't normally march, say, I'm going to hit the streets. This is absolutely unacceptable. And we are seeing now, it started with us raising the question of race, then gender, then lgbtq. Now you're dealing with just somebody that's just there and they feel they have the right to do whatever they want to do. And as you'll get to this tape they dropped today, what does that supposed to show? That people can be shot at because other people are cursing at people. The fact that these protests have been nonviolent, showing a higher level of morality and peaceful coexistence than federal officers in ice, the contrast shows you what you need to see. The people that's angry and righteous, righteously angry as they are, have not broken windows, they've not burned down cities. I remember five years ago, Nicole, when, when the George Floyd killing happened and the family asked me to come into Minneapolis, we had the first deal with people were burning down stores. And then we got to the rallies that were non violent and then I eulogized the funeral. That didn't happen this time yet the President of the United States and the head of Homeland Security said they were rioting and that they had to stop a rioters. What riot? Show us the film of the riot since you've got these tapes. Where's the riot that you say that they were doing? Where's the violence that you said was threatening your life? I think that the more they talk, the more they expose themselves. I always quote, a wise man told me a fish wouldn't get caught if they kept their mouth shut. The more they talk, the more they expose how in many ways they disregard the human and civil rights of citizens of this country.
- [10:30]
Nicole Wallace
When you look at the. As you point out, they're not organized by no kings which organized the 7 million people in the fall. These are organic. They're breaking out in cities, as I said, far and near. ICE is in cities and towns all over our country. And the animosity toward ICE is so visceral. I mean, we can't play a lot of what people say about ICE because it usually is a one syllable swear word that starts with F. Right. And so most. That is sort of the most oft repeated chant against ICE by a lot of protesters in a lot of these cities. But what does it mean that the harder they sort of clamp down not just on people in this country illegally, but on people protesting their treatment of people in this country illegally. They've thrown pepper balls at faith leaders. They shot and killed Renee, Nicole Good. Two people were shot in Portland. What does it say that as their tactics become more brutal, more and more people are taking to the streets?
- [11:33]
Reverend Al Sharpton
I think that is saying that people are not going to sit back and allow them and their brutality to intimidate them and to take the country. I would be concerned if they were clamping down and we didn't see a reaction. The fact that we're seeing a reaction and a disciplined reaction, that they're not being provoked into anger. They're angry, but they are disciplined. I think it's a good thing and I think it's a bad forecast of where they want to go in this country. At the same time, we're seeing these organic marches and the movements forward, they clamped down saying we're going to not even share evidence with the state. I mean, whoever heard of that? The state of Minnesota will have nothing to do with this. We're going to do this. At the same time, the president's sitting with the New York Times talking about, I have as much power. The only thing could stop me is my own morality. Like there are no rules. There's nothing governing me internationally or locally. And I think people are saying that is not the kind of government that we want and will allow to happen. And I think what happened to Ms. Good and the two that were shot in Oregon becomes an impetus for a lot of people to say enough is enough.
- [12:47]
Nicole Wallace
So I want to ask you, Tim Miller, real quick, just to weigh in on the politics of J.D. vance taking a lead here, who only has the job of vice president of the United States of America because the last guy who had that job was literally left for dead. Donald Trump's own supporters who beat up and injured 150 law enforcement officials on the way, threaten to, quote, hang Mike Pence. So that's why J.D. vance is there. They've come out with the normal smears and insults for anyone protesting, but it does feel like it's having the opposite of the reaction that they intend.
- [13:25]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And it's such an inverse of like the traditional vice presidential role, you know, where a lot of times the vice president gets sent out to go to funerals and to comfort, you know, and Joe Biden was like the eulogizer in chief or the vice eulogizer, eulogizer in chief during the Obama administration at times. He did so many eulogies. And I remember, I grew up by Columbine. I remember Al Gore coming out when Clinton was president then. And Vance, on the other hand, rather than being playing the role of comforter, he is playing the role of troll. They've dispatched him to be the person that wins the argument and trolls and gets under the skin of the political opponents and attacks the media because they're not interested in comforting the country or trying to dampen tensions. They want to escalate tensions. That's what they want. They want to ask Rev Al was talking about the discipline we've seen from protesters and thank God and good on them because they want to incite violence from the protesters so they can crack down more and take more state power. And so I guess I don't know this. I don't have any inside knowledge, but I guess they've employed J.D. vance and said, well, this person has a special skill, extremely off putting and condescending and nasty. And we can send him out and try to make our opponents more irate and have them call them names, you know, while he wags his finger at them. It's an extremely unappealing. But I think that it is serving a purpose in some senses, and I think it's also serving a purpose in supporting their base, who they want to feel like their crazy arguments are being validated.
- [15:14]
Nicole Wallace
Jason, take us through this new video amplified by JD Vance, who we've been talking about, and tell me how it illuminates or what it illuminates about the use of deadly force against Renee. Nicole Goode, thank you.
- [15:30]
Jason Hauser
Looking at this video and the totality and looking at this holistically from the videos that shown, the sort of investigation that should go on here should be thorough, independent and holistic. And this sort of, you know, putting these videos out and sort of adjudicating this in the courts of public opinion, this horrifies me for federal law enforcement and also for public safety. But looking at this video, there's, you know, ICE officers and federal law enforcement in general have procedures, tactics and best practices. I see a lot of those here failing. You know, I was involved in dozens of investigations as chief of staff vice. I've been involved in DoD investigations in my past career. This clearly is not the best the way that this should be handled. Additionally, you see an officer here that has, you know, a cell phone in his left hand and a weapon in his right hand and sort of that sort of practice in sort of filming this and engaging sort of the, the individuals that now we're not being targeted in this arrest, but sort of engaging them in this manner. The use of sort of the weapon around other law enforcement officers puts those officers at risk. There's dozens of people standing around in the community. The use of force should be used and restrained and it should be proportional to the risk that the officers are to carry out their mission. I don't know. I have not heard what the actual sort of investigation that was going on in the street, but how that was being handled. There's a lot of questions. And it needs any investigation by ICE or federal law enforcement into the use of force needs to be holistic. It needs to be multi jurisdictional and it needs to be transparent. In my time as ICE chief of staff, we had many use of force investigations. We had death and ICE detention investigations that there needs to be transparency. True public safety comes from that sort of accountability and procedural integrity. And that has been lost. But just let me, let me share one more point that this didn't happen in isolation. This shooting, to me and the events that we're seeing in Portland and elsewhere is predictable consequences of policy choices by the political leadership. And the administration has explicitly pushed federal law enforcement to deprioritize national security and public safety threats, prioritize volume and speed arrests, and visualize the punitiveness of immigration enforcement. And with the authorities and power that come with our laws and that law enforcement carries out, there's. There's great care and respect that needs to be to carry those out. And we're not seeing that with the decision making happen at the top levels of the administration.
- [18:04]
Nicole Wallace
Jason, let me ask you about the culture and the use of deadly force and the intent. He says fucking bitch after the gun goes off, clearly establishing malice and ill will toward whoever he was shooting at. I don't know that he knows the outcome of the shot he fired. I don't know what sort of shot he thought he was, but there was certainly a chance that she was dead. What does it mean for a law enforcement official to say effing bitch after they fired a gun?
- [18:36]
Jason Hauser
I don't have the visual of the entire scene or what was happening the 10 or 15, 20 minutes before that. But this is the constant building of these flashpoints in these conflicts where you have directions to carry out these sort of operations that are not being accepted by the community. They're not in joint coordination with state, local law enforcement. They're not focused on public safety threats. In this sort of animosity and distrust builds. What I see here, though, is that this, the situation, how it's being adjudicated and reviewed in the public domain, on Twitter, it's getting out of control. That justice, both for the individual that was a victim, a horrific victim, but also the fact that we've fallen so far afield from what are both what public safety should be a focus of federal law enforcement and how ICE and immigration enforcement officers go about their very dangerous job. That it needs to be focused on national security, public safety threats, not out antagonizing communities where we have large migrant communities that are thriving and are the backbone of our communities. And that all needs to be brought into question. And what we're seeing is that boiling hole.
- [19:51]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Jason's point, Tim, is that the real threat also includes ice. I mean, we are covering, in these explosive moments, the people who. And I want to make clear that I'm watching a video that I saw on J.D. vance's feed, and that's the only video in which I hear effing B word. It's not clear which officer says that, but that is the only source of that officer's commentary in the I've seen about, I think, the four other videos that are out. And even Donald Trump, when he screened a video for the New York Times, is screening one of the other publicly available videos based on that Times interview. And it isn't this one that includes commentary after the shots are fired that says F word, B word. But it does get to what Jason's talking about, which is the culture and the building of animosity between law enforcement and the immigrant communities. I wonder what you make of this moment and how we navigate through this moment where it doesn't seem possible that it could build much higher without being incredibly dangerous for everybody.
- [21:01]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Well, a couple of thoughts on that. Number one, I talked to Mayor Frey today for the Borg podcast earlier. We kind of discussed this. And, and he made a pretty striking point that part of the rationale for sending ICE and federal agents into Minneapolis and these other cities is that from the administration is allegedly his crime is out of hand. And Mayor Fry said to me, well, actually, we've only had two deadly shootings in Minneapolis this year in 2026, and one of them was by ICE. So they mark 50% of the violent crime at this point in the city. And so when you talk about whether there's safety or whether they're bringing safety or causing concerns about safety, that certainly leads credence to the fact that people are less safe with them around. The other part of this about how you navigate all this, though, he rightly points out that there's a lot of animus towards the local police in Minneapolis after the George Floyd killing five years ago. And they've done a lot of work to rebuild trust in the community. And it's an interesting example where, given what's happening right now, actually the community is trusting the local police a lot more. If there are things that are happening, happening, people are being menaced in their communities by federal agents or they're worried about their neighbors. They're relying on local police. So there's potentially some lesson there about how trust can be rebuilt. Feels pretty far away from now, but I think that's a valuable lesson. Just the last thing that I would say is just in contrast, and I appreciate that you did the cussing, so I don't have to. From that video that apparently is from Jonathan Ross, the ICE agent that shot Renee Goode. He has this cell phone in his left hand and his gun in right hand, which I don't believe to be regulation for a federal agent. But before that, before that, someone says the cuss words. He walks around the car 20 seconds before he shoots Renee Nicole Goode. And she's smiling at him and she says, that's fine, dude, I'm not mad at you. And 20 seconds later, she's dead. It's just hard to believe the lies and the gaslighting that this situation was so fraught and tenuous, you know, that there was so much fear. Being a law enforcement agent is a tough job and oftentimes you're going up to the window of a car if somebody's a violent criminal or somebody that might have a weapon or you suspect to have a weapon in the car. He knew that she didn't. He saw her. She's a 37 year old woman with a dog in the back, stuffed animals in the passenger seat for her kid. She has a beanie on, it's a Honda Pilot. She says, that's fine, dude, I'm not mad at you. And then 20 seconds later he shoots her. I just think that was very important in telling context. And for me, I watched that video, I'm like, it's just hard to see how this person could. Then 20 seconds after that exchange, think, I'm scared of my life, for my life by this late, it's just hard to believe.
- [24:00]
Nicole Wallace
Jason, let me give you a quick last word on Tim's point and his question about whether or not it is regulation to have a cell phone in one hand and a gun in the other.
- [24:10]
Reverend Al Sharpton
No.
- [24:10]
Jason Hauser
And it's not safe for the officer themselves that they're engaged. And actually if you're in a situation just by procedure and handbook and training, if you actually are fearing for your life, you would want to be able to use both hands to protect yourself. Additionally, as Tim is mentioning, walking in front of the car in that manner puts the officer at risk. And that is not a best practice or a procedure. Either is sort of walking around the call car nonchalantly taking video. There's a lot of things that should be investigated. But back to my point that this idea that this is not and even releasing this video from the officer is and not looking at it holistically and investigating this independently is ridiculous. And as a former chief of staff and combat van, I know the difference between the use use of force to stop a real threat and the force used because the situation was poorly planned and escalated. And there needs to be a review. 45 minutes before this incident happened to 45 minutes after. And that's what builds trust in law enforcement. This is about a long standing buildup to these and I'm scared that this is going to continue to happen over the coming months.
- [25:19]
Nicole Wallace
Jason, we benefit enormously from your ability to level set, you know, what is regulation, what is normal and how far away we are from it. Thank you so much for starting us off today, Tim and Rev, stick around. When we come back, we'll go to the Minnesota State Capitol where people will be gathering to call for a peaceful end to the federal government's immigration enforcement in that city. We'll check in on the ground there. Plus, the executives from Big Oil have known more about Trump's operation in Venezuela. The members of Congress. That's according to Trump and the American people. Now those same industry leaders are at the White House hearing from the President himself. He's pitching them on why they should invest in Venezuela now and later in the broadcast, how Donald Trump and J.D. vance have taken another step toward total control over the Justice Department and its operations. We'll get to all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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- [27:49]
Nicole Wallace
Once again, I want to bring into our coverage senior contributing editor and Minneapolis native Michelle Norris. She's on the ground for us in St. Paul. Tim and the Rev are still here. Michelle, just tell us what you're seeing and what you've seen and what you expect tonight.
- [28:03]
Michelle Norris
There's a I'm here at the state Capitol because there's going to be a vigil in about 90 minutes. Behind me, people are starting to arrive. Security is here. And once again, they're trying to create places where people can gather and process what they've seen. But more importantly, two big stories out of Minneapolis, Jay, that you've noted. On both cases, there's a parallel investigation where they're asking people to send video from that incident and other video that they're gathering from the ICE activity in the city and also the release of that video with hearing the last words of Renee Nicole Goode. Such a Minnesota statement in so many ways, it's all good, dude, I'm not mad at you. Sort of speaks to that whole Minnesota nice ethos. One of the things that I want to share with you, though, is, you know, there is an expectation that the people who are leading these immigration, this immigration sweep might take the opportunity to explain what it is they're doing in Minneapolis to try to quell some of the anger and the anguish in the city. And we're not getting that. It's interesting that when they released this video that they thought somehow that it was going to help make their case. I don't quite understand that. But what you should know is instead of getting those kinds of messages from the federal government, I've been able, through some of the ICE monitoring groups, to use their networks to to follow what's happening throughout the city. They have not slowed down their activity at all. There have been raids on businesses. There have been raids on restaurants. There have been stops at highway exits where people are being pulled out of their cars and asked to show identification. ICE has been very active in the city of Minneapolis, in St. Paul and elsewhere throughout the state, in Lakeville, in St. Cloud, in other places, and they're still sending more officers into the state. So at a moment where you think there might just be a pause or moment of detente, that's not happening. They seem to be at least keeping their pace or almost even accelerating their activity.
- [29:59]
Nicole Wallace
Rev, we talked about the protests at the top of the hour. They've been peaceful from coast to coast with tensions as Michel's pointing out as high as they've been all week long. Why is that so important? Strategically?
- [30:15]
Reverend Al Sharpton
I think it's important because one and immediately the Secretary Noem and the president tried to make them rioters, tried to say that Ms. Good was a rioter and you are not wise or strategic. If somebody puts a rioter jacket on you and you fit it in, the fact that they were the opposite of that helps to further expose what they did to Ms. Good. And people don't have an ambiguity about whether she deserved it or not, because they're looking at it saying, there's no riot and she's not doing anything. And now you release a tape where she's kind of saying to you, I'm not mad at you, dude, or dude, I'm not mad at you. And that's a riot. That's a reason to shoot her 20 seconds later. I think that they're stirring in their own, trying to in many ways, put out a lot of stuff, hoping something stick. And so far, all of the protesters have been wise enough not to fall for it. And I'm not saying all of them are Dr. King followers like I am, but I think they're smart enough to understand that they cannot play into this.
- [31:31]
Nicole Wallace
Michelle, tell us how big and what you're expecting right behind you when that's supposed to be sort of at capacity.
- [31:41]
Michelle Norris
They're expecting thousands here to show up for this vigil. In short, it's a one hour vigil. But I just want to speak to something that Reverend Al said about discipline. You know, in Minneapolis. They're not leaving that to chance. They've seen what can happen. After the killing of George Floyd, the city erupted in flames. And you know, in just a few blocks from where this happened, those businesses have just come back after five years. In most of that five year period, those businesses were hollow shelves of what they used to be the fast food restaurants, the stores. That's all just come back. And the trust with the police department has been established. But it's still so fragile. It's still so fragile. And so they're not taking that for granted. They're advising people. They're really working hard. There are networks of people, clergy, political leaders, ANC leaders that are out here trying to make sure that the protests are peaceful. They're not saying don't protest. They're not saying stay home. They're expecting that people will try to work through whatever anger and anguish they feel, but they're hoping and they're not taking a chance. And they're trying to really direct people to use certain tactics. The other thing that is important is this notion of discipline and the fact that he had a cell phone. If they were so interested in recording this, I just have one question that I want people to think about is why aren't they wearing body cameras? Why is that not part of the level of policing that's happening as part of these immigration raids?
- [32:57]
Nicole Wallace
That's a good one. As always, the quintessential journalist among us, Michelle Norris, the Revenue Sharpton, thank you so much for being here. Tim Miller sticks around with me. Your guest this week on Politics Nation is Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison, someone we've all been wanting to talk to. Of course he's talking to you. I can't wait to see that. We'll be watching tomorrow right here at 5pm Eastern. When we come back, Donald Trump this hour is at the White House talking about United States efforts to control Venezuela's oil, something Donald Trump has been talking about since Saturday night's operation. Today's event is about how American oil companies can get in on the action. The oil executives he's meeting with, however, still reportedly have a lot of questions. We'll get to that reporting next. Donald Trump just wrapped up a meeting with oil executives in which he pitched his ambitions for Venezuela's oil industry because the strikes on the South American country taking of their leader was, in Donald Trump's telling, all of his public statements have indicated that it was about controlling Venezuela's oil. Here is how Trump set his expectations for the oil companies in the meeting.
- [34:10]
Reverend Al Sharpton
The plan is for them to spend, meaning our giant oil companies will be spending at least $100 billion of their money, not the government's money. They don't need government money, but they need government protection and the government security.
- [34:25]
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- [34:27]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Money, it's going to be there. So they get their money back and make a very nice return. The plan is for them to spend at least $100 billion to rebuild the capacity and the infrastructure necessary. Venezuela has also agreed that the United States will immediately begin refining and selling up to 50 million barrels of Venezuelan crude oil, which will continue indefinitely.
- [34:57]
Nicole Wallace
Along with all that and the investment he is expecting, predicting, calling for Donald Trump even in those statements won't rule out the military by putting boots on the ground to protect, as he said, the quote, oil companies. So he's promising those security guarantees if Venezuela gets in the way of any of these plans for the oil companies. From the New York Times reporting on that topic from their Interview with Trump, would he insert American troops if the Venezuelan government blocked him from access to that country's oil? Would he send them in if Venezuela refused to kick out Russian and Chinese personnel as his administration has demanded? Quote, I can't tell you that, said Mr. Trump. Trump's dream for Venezuelan oil, though, might turn out to be just a dream. As Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman puts it. Quote, whatever it is we're doing in Venezuela isn't really a war for oil. It is instead a war for oil fantasies. The vast wealth Trump imagines is waiting there to be taken doesn't exist. And here's how Democratic Congressman Adam Smith said Trump's plan is beyond just a bad business idea.
- [36:11]
Tim Miller
Venezuela's oil infrastructure is terrible. It's going to cost a lot of money to try to build that up. And also their oil requires more refining. It's not necessarily as valuable as it appears. And so oil companies, I mean, even if the Maduro government wasn't there blocking them, would have a business calculation. Does this make sense? Is this worth this investment? And most people say no. So how do you force that investment? Where does that money come in? Does President Trump's plan of basically taking Venezuela's oil, does it bear fruit? But the second part of this is, is that plan, in and of itself, even in the best interests of the United States, we show up in Venezuela, take over their country, try to take their oil from them. I mean, this is old school imperialism and colonialism. That is not going to go well.
- [37:02]
Nicole Wallace
I want to bring in former deputy national security adviser to President Obama. Contributor Ben Rhodes is here. Ben, we've wanted to talk to you about this since it happened. I'm so happy to see you. I just don't want to let it become normal that Donald Trump is telling the country and the world, and my own colleague Joe Scarborough, that the difference between this operation and Iraq is because unlike Iraq, we're going to take the oil. And committing even today to keeping American troops on the ground in Venezuela to protect the oil companies, that is extraordinary.
- [37:33]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, I mean, I think we can't. We have to fight against the gravitational pull of normalization, which is what Trump counts on. I mean, with absolutely no legal basis whatsoever, Trump deposed the leader of a foreign country and is now claiming its oil. You know, so we have wound back the clock 100 years. And again, the existential risk of that is once big nations start going down that road, and Russia's already going down that road, now America appears to be going down the road. China could choose to go down that road. That's when you get the kind of big wars that led people to write international laws in the first place. That cries out because, look, there are a lot of questions here, Nicole. The assumption this is just going to go well because Donald Trump sees it going well on paper because Venezuela has a lot of oil reserves flies in the face of all experience the United States has had, certainly in the 21st century with regime change, wars. There are a lot of factions in Venezuela that will not want to see the United States for the next decade controlling their oil. And so is the military going to secure the oil fields? You got to get the oil to the refineries. Are they going to secure the transit routes for this oil? What happens when something goes wrong? What happens if there's civil chaos in Venezuela? What happens if someone attacks one of those oil fields? How is this oil exactly going to be sold on international market when the US doesn't have a legal basis for controlling it? And just at core, Nicole, pure politics here, and I think there's a, a morality and a legality to this. It matters, but pure politics? Do the American people want to be the security force for American oil companies to pump Venezuelan oil? The jobs aren't going to be created in America. They'll be created ostensibly in Venezuela so that the oil companies five years from now can get some more profits. It's doing nothing for the people that voted for Donald Trump or for anybody else in this country.
- [39:27]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I want to press you on politics because even and even ahead of Saturday's operation, the MAGA coalition was bursting at the seams over the entire sort of account of Donald Trump and the military in the region. I have to sneak in a quick break before we have that conversation on the other side.
- [39:48]
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- [40:51]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Ben Rhodes. Ben, before the break, you talked about the American people not wanting the 70%, according to the polling that I've seen, are opposed to the military being involved in Venezuela. But there's some very high profile, bold faced names in Trump's own coalition who've opposed this. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Thom Tillis, Rand Paul and Steve Bannon. What do you see as the sort of political peril in this moment for Donald Trump as he's telling everyone what we used to call quaintly, the quiet part out loud? He's just saying it since it happened. We're there for the oil and we may be there for a, quote, very long time.
- [41:26]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, I think there are a few vulnerabilities. First, you have to remember that those numbers, right, three in ten Americans supporting this. This is the high point. Nicole, you and I have learned this in the 21st century, right?
- [41:36]
Nicole Wallace
Yes.
- [41:36]
Ben Rhodes
When the statue topples of Saddam Hussein, when Muammar Gaddafi is pulled out of a drainpipe in Libya, you know, when the Taliban is route in Afghanistan. That's the high point. Right. Nothing terrible has happened yet. Things haven't gone south in Venezuela yet. The costs aren't being counted yet. You know, all we have is Nicolas Maduro, a bad guy in cuffs off a helicopter after a successful US Special forces raid. If right now the numbers are like that for Trump, there's nowhere to go but down on this. It's not like six months from now there's going to be some oil bonanza. That oil infrastructure is dilapidated. It's going to take years to bring enough Venezuelan oil online that I know you might have some impact on affordability.
- [42:18]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Right.
- [42:19]
Ben Rhodes
So that's, that's one thing. The second thing is if you look at the Republican fractures here, this is actually a voting issue to the MAGA coalition. Like this is not a secondary issue to them. So you see like real MAGA personalities and politicians breaking and then you see, you know, in the Senate, some of the moderate Republicans breaking. And so you have different aspects of the people that Trump needs to hold together. Right. There's kind of Republicans like Murkowski and Collins who are a little ambivalent about Trump and then deep MAGA people who are implemented about this. Then Rand Paul, who's a libertarian, that's different parts of the Republican coalition. They're cracks. It hasn't collapsed, but those are cracks that he has to pay attention to. But lastly, Nicole, and this is where I beg the Democratic Party to not be tepid about this. This guy just went to war. That cost billions of dollars, by the way, to have that armada parked in the Caribbean for weeks, to have that complex of an operation, billions of dollars to oust a leader, to keep his corrupt autocratic regime in place, to try to seize oil, to take care of oil companies. We're supposed to be dealing with affordability in this country. And all Donald Trump is doing is focusing on his grandiose dreams of personal aggrandizement and power and empire accumulation around the world in a manner that does nothing for people. So it's also just a tailor made message. You don't have to be the best politicians in the world to say he doesn't care about you. He cares about himself and his oil company friends.
- [43:43]
Nicole Wallace
And you just have to listen to him. I mean, this is one instance in which there's no attempt to hide anything. It's almost alarmingly transparent. Ben Rhodes, it was worth the wait. Thank you so much for joining us today to talk about all this after the break. For us, Donald Trump's $400 million ballroom project keeps getting bigger. That's a real story. We'll tell you about it next. Donald Trump's DIY renovations to the people's house, the White House, are unfortunately not over. Donald Trump is reportedly turning to an even more famous and important part of the White House, the literal West Wing, with new plans for change. He told the New York Times in an interview that he wants to build a second level, like an apartment on top of a garage kind of thing on top of a West Wing colonnade that connects the West Wing to the White House residents. He told them he's calling the project the Upper West Wing. Good God. Later, during a tour of the White House residence, he said he planned to tear up the brick walkways in Lafayette park and replace them with granite. He adds that his decision to tear up the park walkways was in part because protesters could pluck bricks from the walkway and throw them. They're literally laid in cement, but okay. Donald Trump says it will all be paid for by private donors. We'll stay on top of that story. Up next for us, a new directive from the White House giving Team Trump more control over the Department of Justice. What could go wrong, what that looks like. And more new reporting from inside that agency when Deadline White House continues after a quick break.
- [45:22]
Tim Miller
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Michelle Norris
The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
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Nicole Wallace
What do I do? My refund though. I'm freaking out.
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Ben Rhodes
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Michelle Norris
I'm so relieved. No problem.
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Jason Hauser
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