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"Release the footage" - Deadline: White House | Wave AI Podcast Notes

"Release the footage"

Sat Dec 06 2025

Nicolle Wallace on yet another boat strike launched by the United States military yesterday that killed four people, and growing calls from lawmakers in both parties to release the footage of the highly controversial 'double-tap' boat strike which has called into question the legality of the actions of the United States military.

Summary

Deadline: White House – "Release the footage"

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: December 6, 2025
Theme: Scrutiny over the U.S. military’s controversial September “restrike” in the Caribbean, examination of accountability in military and political leadership, and implications for rule of law and institutional culture.

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the growing bipartisan demand to release footage of the September 2nd U.S. military “restrike” on a boat in the Caribbean. The attack killed 11 people and prompted accusations that it may have constituted a war crime, particularly due to a second strike on shipwreck survivors. The discussion dove into the legality and leadership context of the incident, connecting it to changes in military culture and political oversight under Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth and President Trump. Also covered: new developments in the DOJ’s prosecution efforts against New York Attorney General Letitia James and reporting on the use of FBI resources for personal tasks by political appointees.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Caribbean “Restrike” Controversy

Background: In September, a U.S. military operation targeted a suspected drug-running boat, resulting in multiple strikes and significant civilian casualties ([01:09–02:52]).
- Notably, after the first strike, two survivors were reportedly shipwrecked, unarmed, and may have been signaling for rescue when they were killed in a subsequent strike.
- Lawmakers and the public are demanding the release of footage to clarify events.
Lawmakers’ Reactions:
- Rep. Jim Himes: Called the video “some of the most troubling things he’s seen in years of public service” ([01:50]).
- Rep. Adam Smith: Challenged military claims. “By the time [of] the second strike, you have two survivors...on top of that boat and...the decision was to strike those two people...It’s very disturbing...I have serious questions about that conclusion” ([02:10]).
Definitions & Legal Framing:
- The term “double tap” is critiqued as misleading. Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling insists it was a “restrike” with an interval between attacks, allowing time for assessment—thus raising legal and ethical questions ([07:33]).
Rules of Engagement vs. Lethality:
- Secretary Hegseth and some Republicans defend the actions, emphasizing eliminating “politically correct” rules of engagement for “maximum lethality” ([03:42]).
- Wall Street Journal editorializes against scapegoating lower commanders and calls for civilian leaders to take responsibility ([04:03]).

2. Command Culture and Political Leadership

Commander's Intent:
- Lt. Gen. Hertling: Stresses the pervasive impact of Hegseth’s rhetoric, which prioritizes lethality over legality.
  “When you’re the leader...people start picking up on it...there is now an atmosphere or an aura surrounding that commander’s intent” ([05:13]).
- He draws on history: “There were times to think...between the first strike and the second strike...certainly give any commander...time to consider what he was doing and why” ([07:33]).
Military Judgement and Law:
- Adam Smith rejects the argument that survivors with no means to fight (no weapons, no radios) could still be “in the fight” ([11:38–12:11]).
- Missy Ryan (Atlantic): The military is in “uncharted territory,” taking over traditionally law enforcement roles, and leadership signals from above now have real operational consequences ([12:56–14:23]).
Historical Precedent:
- The established principle in the Laws of War is to treat shipwrecked survivors humanely; this episode potentially violates that norm ([17:05, 28:35]).

3. Culture Wars and Revisionism

Media Narratives:
- Angelo Carusone (Media Matters): Argues that right-wing media is engaged in revisionist storytelling, painting the military as previously “weak” and now “strengthened” by Hegseth ([17:24]).
- There’s division—even among conservatives—about whether to defend or criticize the strike and leadership decisions, leading to confusion and selective outrage ([18:25–18:37]).
Trump’s Position:
- Despite Fox News hosts giving him credit, Trump distances himself: “If there was a second strike, I wouldn’t have approved of that” ([18:28]).

4. Case Study Value and Institutional Learning

Military at a Crossroads:
- Hertling: The incident will become a case study on upholding rule of law and resisting politicization:
  “The military has been through these kinds of tests before...but certainly right now, it’s a tough time...” ([15:19]).
- The panel agrees that accountability and learning from history are critical, and that current events will shape future officer training ([17:05]).

5. DOJ Efforts Against Letitia James

Failed Indictments:
- DOJ’s attempts to indict New York AG Letitia James on alleged mortgage fraud charges have failed twice before grand juries ([33:35–36:11]).
- Carol Lennig reports that repeated failures may strengthen the defense’s case, especially if forced to expose FBI agents’ grand jury testimony ([38:39]).
- “If there is a third attempt, it...triggers...that they would have a much likelier chance...of obtaining all of the agent’s testimony...That will be super helpful to the defense” (Carol Lennig, [39:00]).

6. Misuse of FBI Resources

Kash Patel Scandal:
- Reporting reveals that FBI agents were directed to act as chauffeurs for Director Kash Patel’s girlfriend's friends—an unprecedented and demoralizing use of law enforcement resources ([41:03]).
- “Sources reached out to us because they’re outraged at the use of FBI resources as an Uber for Patel’s girlfriend’s friend” (Carol Lennig, [42:11]).

7. Supreme Court: Trump’s Citizenship Challenge

New Case:
- Supreme Court agrees to hear Trump’s challenge to birthright citizenship, with far-reaching implications for constitutional law ([45:12]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Rep. Adam Smith:
“By the time the second strike, you have two survivors with their shirts off...that was what the decision was, was to strike those two people on that boat. So it’s very disturbing.” ([02:10])
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling:
“There is now an atmosphere or an aura surrounding that commander’s intent...he’s trying to divorce himself from the issue and put the emphasis on Admiral Bradley, absolutely correct.” ([05:13])
Missy Ryan:
“This is really uncharted territory for the military itself.” ([12:56])
Angelo Carusone:
“The narrative of the story that they’re sharing is...we’ve been fundamentally weak and somebody like Hegseth is going to go in there and change the culture. And that is what he promised to do.” ([17:41])
Lt. Gen. Hertling:
“I think...these kinds of things are going to be case studies in the future about...adherence to the rule of law...” ([15:19])
Carol Lennig:
“If there is a third attempt [to indict Letitia James], it...triggers...a much higher chance of obtaining all of the agent’s testimony...” ([39:00])

Key Timestamps

01:09 – Introduction of the Caribbean attack controversy
02:10 – Rep. Adam Smith’s disturbing description of the attack
03:42 – Hegseth’s defense of aggressive rules of engagement
05:13 – Lt. Gen. Hertling on “commander’s intent” and leadership culture
07:33 – Distinction between “double tap” and “restrike”; legal implications
11:38 – Lawmakers describe evidence (or lack thereof) of survivors’ threat
12:56 – Missy Ryan on new military roles and leadership signals
15:19 – Hertling on the politicization of the military and case study value
17:24 – Right-wing media and revisionism (Carusone)
18:28 – Trump distancing himself from the strike
28:35 – NYT: survivors may have been signaling to surrender
32:55 – Reminding the military: do not obey unlawful orders
33:35 – DOJ’s failed prosecution of AG Letitia James
38:39 – Re-indictment efforts could backfire on DOJ (Lennig)
41:03 – FBI agents misused as drivers for political appointees
45:12 – SCOTUS takes up Trump’s birthright citizenship case

Tone and Language

Sober, direct, and analytical with visible frustration from military professionals.
Lawmakers appearing shaken or disturbed by what they've viewed.
Reporters and analysts emphasize factual rigor and warn of historical lessons ignored or rewritten by contemporary politics.

Conclusion

The episode underscores a moment of crisis in American civil-military relations: the tension between legal/historical norms and political/cultural change. Calls for transparency over the “restrike” footage are rooted in fears of violations of the laws of war, fueled by leadership rhetoric that prioritizes “lethality over legality.” The legal and cultural tide in Washington is in flux, with Republican and Democratic criticisms converging around issues of command responsibility and the preservation of rule of law. Beyond the military incident, the episode spotlights a pattern of aggressive and potentially politicized use of government power, from DOJ prosecutions to the misuse of FBI resources, revealing anxieties about institutional integrity and future accountability.

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Transcript

A (0:00)

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B (1:09)

Hi there everyone. Happy Friday. It's four o'clock in New York. On the heels of yet another boat strike launched by the United States military yesterday, one that killed four people, there are growing calls from lawmakers in both political parties to release the footage of the now highly controversial double tap boat strike in September, which has called into question the legality of the actions of the United States military. A selected group of lawmakers yesterday received a briefing on that September 2nd boat strike which killed 11 people in the Caribbean and has been questioned as a possible war crime for what has been described as the military firing a second strike on distressed and shipwrecked sailors who survived the first strike. Congressman Jim Himes, the ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee, described the footage that he saw as some of the most troubling things he has seen in his years of public service. Another House Democrat, Adam Smith, who was also briefed, described it like this.

C (2:10)

We saw the whole video from the moment that they identified the boat to when they did the first strike. And by the time the second strike, you have two survivors with their shirts off on top of a capsized boat, that the bow of the boat is above water, that is not much above water and they're on top of that boat and that that was what the decision was, was to strike those two people on that boat. So it's very disturbing. Now, you know, the admiral offered an explanation for why they felt that those two people on that boat were still, quote, in the fight at that point and legitimate targets. But I have serious questions about that conclusion.

B (2:52)

The New York Times is reporting that multiple people who have seen the video of the attack say the survivors climbed overturned hole and waved to something overhead, a gesture interpreted as an attempt to surrender, beckoning, rescue or trying to signal other alleged drug traffickers. But the Pentagon, Pete Hegseth, and now some Republican lawmakers are trying to argue from that briefing is that the two survivors, the two people shipwrecked in the water, clinging to a boat that had just been incinerated, were exhibiting behavior that led them to believe they were preparing to continue on whatever journey or mission they had been on before they were bombed, that they were, quote, still in the fight.

G (22:47)

Well, I mean, look, it is a testament to Trump we shouldn't. Trump built an organized power on what used to be considered the fringes. And his vehicle for doing it was the larger right wing media echo chamber. He leaped Fox News and captured the Fox News audience. He pulled in all these other QAnon and other conspiracy theorists. That is the engine of his power. And so how does it make sense with somebody like Hegseth? Well, a big reason why these guys were out there in the first place is there was a point in time and it was very fashionable. And you would be rewarded for criticizing Donald Trump as Trump was trying to seize and hijack power, political power on the right and he was using the media. There were people that were being booked or like Hegseth who was trying, who hadn't had a job at Fox News yet but was still just a guest. He was coming on to fill the role of the person criticizing Trump from that perspective. That was the thing that was incentivizing him. So to me, what it tells me is not just about the structures here, but that ultimately a lot of them are weather veins and they go where the weather blows, you know, where the wind blows. And so when you have this Authoritarian, rotten, sort of fascist push, they'll just go in that direction. When you have chaos and disorder and disorientation and stagnation, they'll sort of just middle along, and that's kind of where we are right now. There's a lot of core. They're coreless, they're incompetent, but they're going to be responsive to where the trajectory is. And I will beat this drum. The time when the vibes are good and the echo chamber is working, they can move the country, the politics, the culture in that direction. When it's not, you get disorientation, you get stagnation. Things sort of retrench back to standard politics and the engines can start to work again. I don't think it's an accident that we're talking about this today, not because of what happened, but because you had Republican members of Congress say, I am willing to do something about this. I don't know if they would have done this three months ago.

F (26:20)

I think like so much else these days, you're seeing a sort of partisan split screen when it comes to the response to a single, single piece of information, in this case this imagery, the footage from the September 2nd strike. So I think the basic facts that we have in our reporting, talking to people from both parties, is that there was this extended period, something like 40 minutes, more than 40 minutes between the first and second strike. And you had the two survivors clinging to what we were told was a dinner table size or large door sized piece of wreckage. They were trying to flip it and that they did not have radios that anyone could discern, that they did not have any way to. They were adrift, essentially. They didn't have any way to, you know, restart the boat or anything like that. And like we discussed earlier, Admiral Bradley decided that that was sufficient evidence to conclude that they continue to pose a threat under the framework, the order that Hagsett themselves had laid out. But I think what is really interesting right now and something that we've been reporting on today is the way in which this, in addition to the signal gate inspector general report that came out this week, in addition to the lawsuit that the New York Times launched this week, in addition to a number of different things, you're seeing a potential turning point on Capitol Hill for Hegseth. It's still very quiet, but I think there is some reason to think that the complaints that many Republicans in Congress have about Hegseth are beginning to accumulate right now, according to our reporting. It's not something where people are willing to call President Trump on the phone and ask him to be fired. But I do think that for a number of different reasons related to, you know, the Pentagon's policy on, on troops in Europe, on the actual top line number of the budget, on the, on the strikes and some other reasons there are Republicans who are going frustrated by, by some of Hexess leadership, by the drama that we've seen. And I think it just remains to be seen how long Trump, you know, Hexa's audience of one will stick with him.

E (29:45)

I'd add to your description too, Nicole. Unarmed survivors. It was apparent that they were unarmed. And yeah, I haven't seen the video, so I won't comment on it. But I will comment on something that to me is fascinating. Listening to the clips that you just showed of Secretary Hegseth. I hate to tell a war story, but I will. In 2007, I was preparing the first armored division to go to Iraq, and we had seminars on law of war, rules of engagement, those kind of things. And we studied three different actions and how they affected the combat operations. The first one was Abu Ghraib. I was in Baghdad when that occurred, and I saw how that tactical issue of maltreatment of prisoners turned into a strategic catastrophe. The second one was something called the Black Heart scandal, which occurred in 2005, where a bunch of soldiers raped and murdered a couple of Iraqi citizens and their daughter. The third one was something called the Tartar island issue, and it came out later in an interview or, excuse me, a magazine article in the New Yorker in 2009. Secretary Hegseth was a soldier in that unit where other soldiers committed murder. They attacked into an island. They were told by their commander, a well loved colonel, a very charismatic colonel, to kill everyone on the island because that's where Al Qaeda was. Well, when the soldiers got there, they didn't find just Al Qaeda, they found citizens. And yet some of them killed a lot of young boys and a lot of men that were farmers. One was 60 years old. So the soldiers were sent to Leavenworth. They're still serving time there. The commander was relieved and his career was ended. And Secretary Hegseth was a member of that unit. So that kind of dynamic, you would think, as Angelo said before, that people would learn from and apply it as part of their history and as they build cultures within an organization. But that doesn't seem to be the case today. And that's why it's so important, truthfully, that we continue to remind soldiers that they should not obey illegal orders, period.