Loading summary
Transcript60 lines
- [00:00]
Dr. Horton Sales Announcer
Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national Red Tag sales event going on right now through January 25th. Stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at Incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference. Tap your screen now or visit Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing Opportunity Builder as President Trump continues.
- [00:33]
Nicole Wallace
Implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [00:48]
The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.
- [00:52]
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.
- [01:04]
Heather Cox Richardson
It certainly looks as if what he is saying is not just America is going to be the country controlling the Western Hemisphere, but also the way to get along with the United States is not to spread democracy or public health or all the things that we have tended to emphasize in the past. The way to get along with the United States is to give expletive to the president whatever he wants, give crap to the president and then he'll back off. And that is, I mean, that is actually slightly different than the United States is going to become a colonial power that is a personalized power that looks very much like Vladimir Putin.
- [01:46]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again, everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. It's just about the closest thing Donald Trump has to a governing ideology. It is not an adherence to democracy. It is not prosperity for all citizens. It is certainly not the rule of law. No, for Donald Trump, both at home and abroad, it has always been about dominance and control and the lengths he's apparently willing to go to get those things. Donald Trump threatening Americans in Minnesota with the Insurrection act only scratches the surface of what Heather Cox Richardson just described there in that soundbite. The Putinization of a presidency already defined by what it does for those who kiss Trump's boot and other parts. And to anyone, and to anyone who refuses to do that. Of course, those who do fall in line aren't always rewarded. Those who voted for Trump in the name of lower grocery prices or transparency when it comes to the Epstein files or a retreat from the quote forever wars and foreign conflicts certainly understand that Donald Trump didn't mean anything he said when he was a candidate. But the point stands, go down the list, starting with threats to Venezuela, Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, Greenland. As our friend Tom Nichols writes today, quote, most Americans probably couldn't care less about Greenland, but they will be forced to care tragically too late if Donald Trump's gambit engulfs the world in flames. Plus, a possible federal takeover of Minnesota that could result in a surge of armed federal agents tasked with keeping the peace by brute force if necessary. Plus, other First Amendment concerns, the FBI search of a Washington Post reporter's home as part of an investigation into a government contractor who's been accused of illegally retaining classified materials. And today, brand new cause for concern, the latest in a series of many having to do with the midterm elections. Not 2028, the presidential, mind you, but this year's midterms. Citing historical trends that suggest that a president's party, the party in power, loses seats in the second year of his presidency, Donald Trump told Reuters this, quote, it's some deep psychological thing, but when you win the presidency, you don't win the midterms. Trump said he boasted that he had accomplished so much that, quote, when you think of it, we shouldn't even have an election, end quote. That quote is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts in France, voting rights attorney, founder of democracy docket. Mark Elias is here. Also joining us, staff writer at the Atlantic, a contributor to the Atlantic Daily newsletter. The aforementioned and quoted Tom Nichols is here. The he's a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the US Naval War College where he taught for more than two decades. Also joining us, political analysts and pollster Cornell Belcher is with us. Mark Elias, I start with you on that Reuters reporting about Donald Trump. I don't know, maybe suddenly tuning into the trend of off your elections not going the way of a president's party.
- [04:48]
Mark Elias
Yeah, this is getting worse and it's going to get worse from here. The fact is in 2020, Donald Trump tried to overturn the results of a free and fair election by going to court and then by inciting a violent mob to storm the Capitol. In 2022, you recall, he, he backed all these election and higher candidates. They didn't do well. But we saw at the local level some counties refused to certify. In 2024, he tried everything he could to get in place election deniers and build in an ability of them to not certify accurate election results. So far this year, this is what we've got or this election cycle is what we've got. Number one, he has tried to pass executive orders limiting the ways in which states can can allow voting. Number two, he's got his Department of Justice suing 24 states in the District of Columbia. By the way, they lost their first case today. My law firm and I representing the NAACP and others defeated them in California. So they're now 0 for 1. We'll see how the next 23 cases go. But in, but in August, he said that he believes the states act as his agents. That's his word. States act as his agents for the counting and tabulating of votes. Then two weeks ago, he told the New York Times that he wished he had seized the ballot boxes, had the National Guard seize the ballot boxes in 2020. And today he is questioning why we're even having midterm elections. This is directionally all going in the same place. We are going to have elections because Donald Trump can't cancel them. But it's not because he doesn't want to, it's because he can't. We are going to have counting of ballots by states not because Donald Trump wants to, but because states will have possession of the ballots. But that isn't the beginning or the end of the story. He is going to do everything he can to use the Department of Justice, his paramilitary forces, and God help us, God willing, not letting go, but potentially the US Military to make it very hard for people to vote and very easy for him and his folks to cheat. So everyone who cares about democracy needs to be focused on these midterm elections, needs to take him literally and seriously, and needs to be doing everything they can in the court of public opinion, in the court of law and in their local communities to prevent this from happening.
- [07:00]
Nicole Wallace
What does that look like? What does it look like to do everything that we can? What can people do?
- [07:05]
Mark Elias
Yeah. So number one, you know, I'd ask the lawyers and the business community, what are you guys doing? You know, in 2017, we saw when Donald Trump, when Donald Trump was doing, preventing people from coming into this country, we saw big law firms all over the airports. When there was child separation policies. We saw big law firms involved. Why aren't the big law firms involved in Minneapolis? Why aren't the big law firms, you know, those 24 cases I mentioned that my small law firm, my 60 person law firm, we're up against DOJ and all of them, you know how many cases we have a big law firm also involved? 0z, e r o. And so we need the law firms and we need the business community to be engaged in this in terms of individual Citizens, Donald Trump gets away with this crap when no one is paying attention. He hopes that he will bury this stuff in an avalanche of news. And we need all to be calling this out. We need everybody to be pressuring their local elected officials, their county leaders who run these elections to make sure they are pressure tested and ready to go. And we cannot let this happen in darkness.
- [08:13]
Nicole Wallace
Tom Nichols, I want to bring you in on this. One of the things that Trump is doing, I don't know if it's in darkness because he's hiding any of these things. He's doing them pretty loudly, but he's doing them in a flurry that is sort of blinding and numbing for a lot of people. But one of them is opening up military fronts with Venezuela, Greenland and Iran all in the same sort of 10 day period. You are, you've written about Greenland today just since we have been on the air this afternoon. Republican Congressman Don Bacon has said, who's voted against impeaching Donald Trump twice, says that he would impeach Trump if the United States of America invades Greenland. Your thoughts on both sort of the flurry of things coming at the American people and the degree to which people are paying attention about his betrayal, really on focusing on things here in America?
- [09:17]
Tom Nichols
Well, I always wish people were paying more attention, especially when it comes to foreign policy. Americans just tune it out. And this isn't unique in the age of, I mean, it's always been the case that, as the saying goes, Americans think of foreign policy like the plumbing. They just assume it's back there and it works. And they don't think about it until they're up to their hips in water. But I think one reason Trump is doing this first, it's part of the authoritarian playbook. If you're not winning at home, and I don't think he is, I think Trump's having some really serious problems. His popularity is underwater. He's losing court cases. The Epstein files are still out there. I think we underestimate how much that weighs on his mind. And a lot of the economy's not going the direction he wants to be. And so he resorts. The only thing he has full control over, which is the military and his ability to use it outside of American borders and to try to score a win. And I think he's finding that the problem of people not paying much attention to foreign policy isn't, is a problem for him as well. He overthrew a Venezuelan dictator. Well, that was, you know, that was so two weeks ago. And he's threatening Greenland and people are starting to tune into that. And he bombed Iran months ago and that has sort of passed by. I really think he's hoping for a rally around the flag, rally around the president moment and he's just not getting it. And I think that's because in part he's picking things that are intensely unpopular. The number of people who really support a military takeover of Greenland probably fit in this room with me. And so I think he's comfortably, comfortably. But he's going to keep doing it.
- [11:03]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, I think it's about 4%. His military interventions are almost as unpopular among self identified MAGA folks as anybody else. War in Greenland I think is literally opposed by all but 4% of respondents. Cornell. I'd also point out that the things that he is turning to the ice overreach. That's something that has swung 30 points in public opinion polls since Donald Trump has ramped up his harassment of migrants, immigrants, asylum seekers and American citizens.
- [11:44]
Cornell Belcher
Yeah. Well, the sunny side of this, Nicole, is, is quite frankly your first hour listening to folks on the ground and listening to interviews that you all did a wonderful job of covering for people who say, you know, they'd never protest or they've, they've never been out before and, and how the country seems to be mobilizing in the face of this threat, as I had hoped that Americans would be Americans and say, well, no, we're not going to stand for this and begin to mobilize. And I think you've seen from a political standpoint, you've seen that in every special election that we've had since Trump has been in office and you've seen that in the off your elections in Virginia, New Jersey, where Democrats didn't just do well, they did historically well, you know, winning by larger numbers than it had been before. And in the data that I'm seeing right now, you know, there are, and you know, we did a civil rights monitor for the Leadership Council on Civil Rights and shows that more Americans are ready to mobilize and to have their voices heard and, and to stand up against what, what we're, what we're seeing and we're hearing right now. And, and look, the other thing about this is, is, and this is where the rubber meets the, the, the street here for, for us in politics. Right. You know, the Cook Report, which is probably not something that, that a lot of our viewers know, but all of us insiders that are on this program understand what the Cook Report is. The cook report shifted 18 house seats in Democrats favor today. Right. That's, that's huge. Right. So there is, there is something happening in this country with the American people that I am, that, that I'm hopeful about.
- [13:45]
Nicole Wallace
I don't know that I've ever heard you utter that sentence, say more.
- [13:52]
Mark Elias
Well.
- [13:55]
Cornell Belcher
There is this sense that, that things are changing, that we, that perhaps they have. You know, and even, and look, even the reporting that you're talking giving about Republicans saying that I will vote to impeach you if insanity, but I will vote to impeach you.
- [14:10]
Mark Elias
Right.
- [14:10]
Cornell Belcher
If you do something like. We didn't, we haven't heard, we haven't heard that before.
- [14:14]
Mark Elias
Right.
- [14:15]
Cornell Belcher
And, and, and look, we haven't. So, so if we haven't seen like middle American, this thing you and I have talked about for. Right. Things change. The moment that middle white America think they have skin in the game and all this horrific things that aren't just happening to, to brown people and immigrants and, and, and bad people, quote, quote, unquote, bad people. The moment that middle white Americans think they have skin in this game, it becomes really problematic. And what I see in Minnesota is that middle Americans, middle white Americans begin to feel as though they have skin in this game and are ticked off about what they see and the images that they see representing their country.
- [14:56]
Nicole Wallace
Tom, I think they're also sort of focusing in on, I hate to say they weren't paying attention because I think people are juggling so many different things, but maybe focusing in on or seeing tangible evidence of the kinds of things that General Kelly warned about. You know, he was pressed right ahead of the election. Is he a fascist? General John Kelly, Donald Trump's first chief of staff, said, looking at the definition of fascism, it's a far right, authoritarian, ultra nationalist political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy. So certainly my experience, those are the kinds of things he thinks would work better in terms of running America. He goes on to say he falls into the general definition of a fascist for sure. It was, I think for anyone covering politics or Donald Trump, a four alarm fire. This general who had worked for Donald Trump had never come out against him, came out and sort of handed the country, the voting public, this smoking gun piece of evidence that he would indeed definitely govern as a fascist. People for whatever reason had to verify that general's testimony with their own eyes. And, and Donald Trump is providing all of the evidence with ice in the streets, with National Guard in the Streets with foreign adventures in Venezuela. Iran, as you said, promises to go for Greenland, even though we already have a base in Greenland. I mean, the numbers opposing war with Greenland or using the military in Greenland don't even necessarily include any sort of public education that we already have a base in Greenland. Whatever he wants to do militarily or for national security, we can already do. They're our friend and ally. I mean, just take me through what will happen to that incredibly lopsided public approval number about taking Greenland when everyone sort of settles into the reality that it's already a place where we operate freely and it is a Danish territory and ally. Part of NATO.
- [17:04]
Tom Nichols
Yeah. I mean, one thing people, I think, understand is they think of Greenland as a separate country when in fact, it's part of Denmark. And Denmark has been an ally of the United States pretty much longer than almost anyone else. 225 years. I mean, we've been allied to Denmark longer than we've been allied to Great Britain. And I think people haven't quite internalized this or the fact that our allies, our friends, the French, the British, the Swedes, others, have actually sent troops to Greenland to make the point that the United States can't have this territory. And I think part of the problem. You know what you were talking about earlier, Nicole, about Trump being an aspiring fascist, you have to hear him say that stuff. And I, for years, as you know, I said put him on television 24 hours a day so that people can hear all of this fascist rhetoric, that they can hear him talk about human scum and, you know, how people are subhumans and how they deserve to be executed and all this other. All these other terrible things. The problem is that when Donald Trump is covered in these little slivers of coverage and the story just kind of sweeps by, well, Donald Trump said some things, and he wants Greenland. That's not really the story. Donald Trump is saying really terrifyingly fascist things about taking over other countries and owning them and that anyone who disagrees with him is his enemy. And I think that's starting to break through. I guess, like Cornell. I'm becoming uncharacteristically optimistic that I think a lot of this stuff is all coming together and starting to break through to people.
- [18:51]
Nicole Wallace
I feel like Mark and I will hold up the less optimistic side of the table for today's purposes. It's a great media debate, though, and I have to sneak in a break. But let's go there. On the other side, if people saw him speak unedited and in real time. He he doesn't always have a noun and a verb within three minutes of each other. It is remarkable how much less crisp his delivery is, even in the views of his own supporters. We'll have that conversation much more from our panel on Donald Trump's clear embrace of authoritarianism, how voters are rejecting pretty much every single autocratic lurch he makes. Also ahead, we'll ask Mark to tell us more about Republican efforts to rig the midterm elections and that victory that he's talking about that he and Democrats just won in an effort to stop them from being able to do that. And we'll get to the very rare, highly unusual FBI search of a Washington Post reporter's home. Why that's setting up alarm bells later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [19:57]
Dr. Horton Sales Announcer
Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national red tag sales event going on right now through January 25th. Stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference. Tap your screen now or visit Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton, America's Builder and Equal.
- [20:25]
Nicole Wallace
Housing Opportunity Builder, Ms. Now presenting the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with American historian Heather Cox Richardson.
- [20:38]
Heather Cox Richardson
In the United States of America, the Constitution rests on the power of we the people, not a religion, not a nation.
- [20:45]
Nicole Wallace
The Best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to Ms. Now Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [20:59]
Heather Cox Richardson
He is spending money like a drunken sailor. And you think about that attempt to use our money instead of spending it on our healthcare, using it for crap like that. Those plaques. I'm a little surprised we haven't put more muscle into saying, hey, wait just a second here. But again, it almost feels in many ways like Trump has taken everything to caricature. And you think about the destruction of the Cohen building and the murals in it that are priceless. Or you think about the destruction of our education department or you think about.
- [21:36]
Nicole Wallace
The destruction of, I was just gonna.
- [21:38]
Heather Cox Richardson
Say U.S. agency for International Development or the rules based international order and it's not so freaking funny anymore.
- [21:48]
Nicole Wallace
Marcolias. I think historians will have to like Heather will have to unravel whether all these things that were so obvious to those of us who paid a lot of attention To Trump every day during his first term as president and especially during those four years when he was out of office, he was always a grifter, he was always cruel. He always was oriented toward Russia's foreign policy almost more than anything that would benefit any of our allies. But he has taken all of it to a caricature. What is your sense of his political standing right now?
- [22:24]
Mark Elias
So, you know, this is, I think, the great question and I think you have to be able to look at it through two lenses. The first is the lens of his popularity. And in that respect, I agree with, you know, with others that, you know, Donald Trump is weaker. You know, he is engaged in a lot of unpopular policies. People don't like his economic program. They don't like their station in life. He can say all he wants that affordability is not a thing voters think it is. They don't like to see what he's doing abroad to our traditional alliances. They certainly don't like the images they see in our city. So in that sense, he is quite a bit weaker. The other side, though, of this, which, you know, I think you recall Tim Miller and I had a back and forth about last week, is that that popularity only really matters in the sense that either a other political actors are responsive to it or you believe that it's going to toss Republicans out of office in 2026. And I'm not here to say that those things won't happen, but like, his party's not really breaking with him. Like, you know, we can keep squinting and finding the, the one off vote here and there in Congress that he loses. But fundamentally, you know, Republicans in the House and Senate are stick. Republican local officials are sticking with him. You do not see even Republicans from Minnesota saying that what he is doing is wrong. Tom Emmer remains a cheerleader of his. And with respect to the elections, you know, Donald Trump is trying to rig the maps in the House. He is questioning whether we should have elections at all. He is, you know, musing that perhaps we should be seizing ballot boxes. You know, the attorney general has filed 25 lawsuits to try to get access to the most sensitive voter data in the country. That's one of the lawsuits that they lost that we were just talking about. Like, you know, Donald Trump is, it's not like he doesn't have a plan to deal with making up a few percentage points, at least in popular vote in these midterms through voter suppression, election subversion. So I think we have to be able to hold both of those thoughts.
- [24:32]
Nicole Wallace
Simultaneously in our Minds Cornell, are Democrats ready to fight the fight that they encounter, or do you think they are sort of in a, in a. I don't want to say business as usual because I know from talking to them that it's not that. But are they ready to sort of match and meet what Trump is planning to bring to the midterms?
- [24:54]
Cornell Belcher
I have no idea. All I can say is that I think the grassroots and the people are demanding something different. And whether or not the, those, you know, and they're in their, you know, their offices, their consultant offices on K Street and those on the Hill hear that, but the people are clearly demanding something different. And I think Democrat success or failure will largely depend on how they react to the marketplace and how much they lean into the marketplace. Now, that said, I do think there are some good signs out there that Democrats are listening. But, Nicola, there is a status quo cabal within the Democratic Party that is hard to break and it's hard to move. And I think whether or not if we have a Sea Change election in this country, it will be because Democrats have moved closer to where the people are and meeting the people where they are right now in this country about their frustrations and their anger and, and it's simply not about the price of eggs. Right. It's about a whole lot of other things. Right. Those people that you just showed in the last hour who never marched before aren't out in the streets marching because of, because of affordability. They're unhappy about it, but they're not mobilized by it. Right. And can Democrats lean into this mobilization that we see happening around sort of our fundamental dignity and our rights in this country? That's a question I still have. I mean, that's something I still have question marks around.
- [26:35]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, and Tom, it leads to probably the most tired topic in the country, and that is what's wrong with Republicans? I mean, as Trump is now a lame duck, he has a cabinet of the most charmless human beings that have ever been assembled for membership in any body. And they all make up Donald Trump's second term presidential cabinet. He picked them maybe for that reason. Right. But the idea that Republicans, I like Mark's term, if you squint, you can find data points and I'll cop to squinting every now and then, but the idea that, you know, it's Massie that broke with Trump on Epstein and we know his name because there weren't a lot of them, it's Bacon who's breaking with Trump on Greenland, and we know his name because There aren't a lot of them. What is your sense of why Republicans are following him down into these really, really low public approval rabbit holes around issues like multiple war fronts and mocking people that say things are too expensive, refusing to do anything on affordability or health care?
- [27:45]
Tom Nichols
The simple structural answer is that they're doing it because they know that all they have to do is survive their primary. If they're from red districts, all they have to do is not get primaried, not have the Eye of Sauron to have Donald Trump's wrath settle on them, and they can lay low, get through their primary, and then they'll just win the general by default. Now, I think in some districts, that's less true than it used to be. And I think Cornell's point about the Cook Report is even, you know, people like us read it, but others don't. But nonetheless, what's in it is important that these, that these races are shifting. And I want to make one point about that regarding Mark's point, which is, yeah, popularity. If it doesn't translate into losing seats, then, you know, that's, that is the hardest edged calculation to make. But it does. In an authoritarian regime where the government is trying to establish more power, where it's trying to consolidate its grip, it does need public approval to get away with that, because public approval and what people say to each other, what neighbors say to each other, what two people in a bar say to each other, you know, people at the grocery store say to each other, does start to set some of the limits of what the government can get away with. And I think one of the things that you're seeing is that that window is, has gotten narrower for Trump. And I think because of his own actions, I think that what he's doing in Minnesota, you know, it's horrible and it's a tragedy and these people have been hurt, but it's blowing up. I think maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think it's blowing up in his face, as is these crazy schemes about Greenland and other things.
- [29:26]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, you are seeing, if you're on the fence out there, you are seeing every kind of person, right. People that certainly talk about never being involved in politics. We played tape of someone who said he'd never been at a protest before. He described his own house as cushy, said he's usually inside his own house. So to the point about mobilization and permission structures to oppose Trump and do so publicly, there is definitely something happening out there. Tom Nichols, Cornell Belcher, thank you so much. For starting us off today. Mark sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, Donald Trump's plans to rig the midterms take a big hit as we've been discussing in the biggest state of all. We'll ask Mark to tell us more about what just happened in California and what it means for of the Democrats chances in November. That's next.
- [30:15]
Ms. Now presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with American historian Heather Cox Richardson.
- [30:26]
Heather Cox Richardson
In the United States of America, the Constitution rests on the power of we the people, not a religion, not a nation.
- [30:33]
Nicole Wallace
The best people with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [30:48]
Since we're lucky enough to have Mark Elias, we're going to turn to the latest in the broader redistricting fight in our country with a major blow to GOP efforts to rig the midterms and silence voters in the most populous state. On Wednesday in federal court, a three judge panel denied a motion by Republicans and the Trump administration to block California's new congressional maps that voters overwhelmingly approved last fall. The judges disagreed with the claim that California's maps were designed based on race, concluding instead that what California Democrats and California voters were clear about all along, that their massive statewide effort, known as Prop 50, was a direct response to Donald Trump's redistricting efforts in Texas. And that, quote, exactly what it was billed as a political gerrymander designed to flip five Republican held seats to the Democrats. We're back with Marcolias. Just take us through the significance of this.
- [31:43]
Mark Elias
Yeah, it's a very important case and I'm thrilled that my law firm represented the Democratic Party, Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee in particular in defending that California map. And look, the fact is that the Trump administration has turned their Department of Justice into basically a personal law firm for Donald Trump and the law firm of choice for the Republican Party. There is no reason why the Trump administration, Department of justice should have chosen of all of the voting rights cases they could have brought, why were they attacking the California map? They were attacking the California map because Donald Trump knows the only way that he can hold power after next year's elections, as if he sometimes is able to rig the rules. And there's no bigger way to rig the rules than through redistricting. And so he's had his way in Texas and in Missouri and North Carolina and he's very unhappy that Democrats responded in California. And it's a big deal that we won there. But I also want to point out that we had another victory and again, my law firm was involved in this too in Tazewell County, Virginia, a little county in the southwestern part of the state chosen by Republicans. You might imagine why that's where they chose to go to try to block Virginia Democratic legislators efforts to redraw the map there. They failed in that effort as well yesterday. So we continue to see the Trump administration flailing about, Republicans flailing about in the courts. And that's why I am so worried, Nicole, and why I keep raising the prospects of these extrajudicial efforts that he may once again engage in. We saw him do it after 2020 in the nation's capital, led to violence and some tragic deaths.
- [33:20]
Nicole Wallace
Well, take me through the statewide sort of the state by state efforts to redraw maps and just tell me when the like when, when does that stop on both sides?
- [33:32]
Mark Elias
So where we are right now is Republicans have redrawn the map in Texas, in Missouri and in North Carolina. So they yielded five seats in Texas, an additional seat in Missouri, an additional seat in North Carolina. Democrats obviously have redrawn the map in, in California and are in the process of redrawing the map, although in a much earlier phase in Virginia. The, the question in Virginia is whether Democrats, if they're successful, how many seats they'll yield, whether they'll yield three or four. And then the big thing to watch on the Republican side is California, where Ron DeSantis has said he will call a special session in, in, in, in Florida to try to gerrymander another, you know, two, three, four seats there. So that's, those are kind of the big pieces. There are some other states, Maryland on the Democratic side maybe, you know, some Republican states, but those are the big pieces. What's notable though is that in California and Virginia, Democrats are putting it before the voters, which is why I say the Virginia things are the early stage. And in, in states like Texas and Florida, Republicans are just ramming it through. And in Florida in particular, they're going to try to ram through, notwithstanding the fact that there has been amendments to the state constitution because of voters preventing partisan gerrymandering. But that's not going to stop him. And I will repeat what I oftentimes repeat. We will sue.
- [34:53]
Nicole Wallace
What is the prospect that there is something ongoing as we sort of careen into November?
- [35:00]
Mark Elias
Yeah. So the big unknown is what the Supreme Court does in the Louisiana case, the so called Calais case. And this is a case in which, you know, my law firm brought a lawsuit to obtain relief for black voters in Louisiana and were successful. Then a group of white voters filed a lawsuit saying they are being discriminated against. I kid you not. That's their claim. But that's the case that's before the U.S. supreme Court that could overturn the Voting Rights Act. And I think it's important that people understand that. Framing that this is the only time that I can recall in my memory, and I've litigated for four racial gerrymandering cases before the Supreme Court in 104. I can't think of another instance in which white voters are claiming racial discrimination. And it's kind of a sign of the times that not only are they doing that and there's not an outcry, but that the U.S. supreme Court may overturn the crown jewel of American democracy, the Section 2 of the Voting Rights act, and use the vehicle to do so. A claim brought by white voters in Louisiana.
- [36:02]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I mean, it has its echo in Donald Trump's own words, right? If you're looking for a political permission structure, I think Donald Trump told the New York Times that Civil Rights act was terrible, led to a lot of unfair things happening to white people. So it is remarkable. I know you are working on all these fronts. We appreciate you taking the time today to take us through all of it and keeping us honest. Thank you so much for your time today.
- [36:26]
Mark Elias
Thanks for having me.
- [36:27]
Nicole Wallace
When we come back, we're learning more about the highly unusual FBI search of a Washington Post journalist's home. We're bringing those developments next. The FBI's decision to raid the home of a reporter at the Washington Post has sent a chill through newsrooms all across our country. While neither the reporter nor the Washington Post is said to be the target of the FBI investigation, which was allegedly aimed at a government contractor accused of illegally retaining classified government material. The Washington Post reports today that, quote, reporters from multiple outlets said they moved swiftly to secure their phones and laptops, to reassure confidential sources and consult newsroom leaders as they worried about the federal government's seizure of devices containing sensitive information. Many journalists said they saw the FBI raid as a jarring new step aimed at limiting news organizations ability to gather information that the government does not want to be made public. Reporters have been subpoenaed for information under prior administrations, a move that can be challenged in court. But as the Washington Post points out, quote, raiding a reporter's home early in the morning, a more intrusive step that limits the ability for a court challenge, is exceedingly unusual, if not unprecedented. I want to bring in Politico senior legal affairs reporter Josh Gerstein. Josh, you've covered some of the most sensitive stories sort of in this modern political era. Have you ever had anything nearing this level of intrusion into any of your sort of body of reporting work?
- [38:11]
Josh Gerstein
I mean, not that I'm aware of, Nicole. I would agree with the sentiment that going into a reporter's home or actually seizing their devices from them or their papers from them, or so what have you. It's a very, very unusual step, and there are real questions about it. Under federal law, there's a statute that goes back about 45 years that basically says in almost every circumstance that if investigators, federal investigators want information from a reporter or news organization, they need to subpoena it, instead of just bursting in to a newsroom like the one I'm sitting in right now with a search warrant, because that did go on at one point in the 70s and earlier, and Congress decided they didn't think things should be handled that way. So it's me very interesting, Nicole. When the legal papers come out here, we get some sense of what justification the Trump administration offered for this particular search.
- [39:11]
Nicole Wallace
And until that happens, what do we understand about this search?
- [39:16]
Josh Gerstein
Well, what we understand is that it was an offshoot of an investigation, as you mentioned, into a government contractor who apparently came under suspicion for taking classified information home. And when the FBI went to arrest him, according to a DOJ official, he was chatting, supposedly with Hannah Ntensen, or was in the midst of some kind of a chat that DOJ has said but hasn't put in court papers yet, involve some type of classified information. So that's how we sort of think that this spiraled towards the journalist. How the initial investigation got underway is still a little bit uncertain.
- [40:00]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, one of the things just to deal with the elephant in the room that makes us different is that Donald Trump is a president who describes the press as a, quote, enemy of the people. They're engaged in so much gaslighting and lying that the Washington Post, which once had one of the best lie trackers and counters, doesn't even do that anymore. And Jeff Bezos, who seemed to be proud of having a robust newsroom In Trump 1.0, his silence is the subject of reporting, including by the reporters at Status, that he's not known. He's publicly said nothing to defend the journalists at the paper he owns. What is your sense of this search happening in this moment?
- [40:37]
Josh Gerstein
Well, I mean, you're right, the rhetoric that President Trump has used towards reporters, it's not just generally, Nicole, it's specifically in this context of protecting their confidential sources. I have to say it's even been directed at me and other reporters that I know where he suggested if we were thrown in jail, perhaps we could be subjected to some kind of mistreatment in prison, and that would be a good way to identify our sources. So it's a, it's a topic that the president has discussed publicly on several occasions and in quite a bit of detail. So you don't really need to have a very vivid imagination to be a little suspicious of what the administration does on this front. I would also say, Nicole, some of the steps you talked about reporters and newsrooms taking to be candid, a lot of newsrooms began taking those steps before this administration even came into office because it was quite clear that there was likely to be reduced level of respect would be the most polite way to put it for news organizations and the way they've been treated in the legal system over the last half century or so. And it was only wise to try to take steps to mitigate any actions, you know, like the one we've seen with the search of the Washington Post reporter's house.
- [41:53]
Nicole Wallace
What I mean, Cash Patel is the other elephant in the room. I guess Donald Trump made an unconventional decision, or not unconventional. I guess Christopher Wray resigned in advance, sort of Tim Snyder obeying in advance. Keshe Patel is a ally in the truest sense. A political crony is probably more accurate. What is it like to be reporting and covering Trump in this moment with some of his closest political allies running the FBI?
- [42:23]
Josh Gerstein
Well, it's very, very unusual. It, I think, has changed the way reporters relate to the FBI and to the Justice Department as a whole. I mean, I should say in the context of sensitive matters, even for this administration, like obtaining a search warrant to get a reporter's electronic information or information from their home? This is not something that the FBI under any administration can do unilaterally. I mean, they do have to go to court for this to go to court, it has to go through the Justice Department. So there's simply no question that the senior most officials in the Justice Department have to approve this type of thing. And we've seen statements from officials like Attorney General Pam Bondi, who has argued both that this was justified and that they consider the First Amendment to be a bulwark. Now, not entirely sure how you can, you know, put those two things together in the same TV appearance, but she's, she has done that. So there's just no question that the administration is pursuing this in a concerted way. It's not some sort of rogue actor, be it a rogue FBI agent or even a rogue FBI director.
- [43:30]
Nicole Wallace
I really appreciate you coming on and talking to us about it. Josh Gerstein, thank you so much.
- [43:35]
Josh Gerstein
Great to see you.
- [43:37]
Nicole Wallace
Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Donald Trump makes no secret of his burning desire to be recognized as a peacemaker and someday win a Nobel Peace Prize. Well, today he may have bullied his way into at least acquiring one, maybe just in his own mind. Following her visit with Donald Trump at the White House this afternoon, Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corinna Machado told reporters that in an extraordinary attempt to win over Donald Trump, she presented Donald Trump with her Nobel Peace Prize medal. Machado was awarded the peace prize last year for her advocacy for democracy in Venezuela. The award is something Trump has publicly coveted rather desperately, and he reportedly resented her for even accepting the award in the first place. Ahead of today's meeting, the Nobel committee made clear that Donald Trump is absolutely not the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, saying this in an extraordinary statement, quote, a medal can change owners, but the title of a Nobel Peace Prize laureate cannot. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.
- [44:52]
Ms. Now Promo Announcer
Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more voices you know and trust. Ms. NOW is your source for news, opinion and the world. Our name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth that you've relied on for decades. We'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you. Ms. Now. Same mission, new name. Learn more at Ms. Now.