Alex Wagner (2:33)

The roommate then asks the suspect why he did it. And this is what he had to say.

Chris O'Leary (2:39)

Robinson I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen anything about them finding it. How long have you been planning this? Robinson A bit over a week.

Alex Wagner (3:07)

Absolutely chilling. According to law enforcement, the suspect also encouraged his roommate to delete all of Those messages.

Chris O'Leary (3:16)

ROBINSON Again, Delete this exchange again. ROBINSON My dad wants photos of the rifle. He says grandpa wants to know who has what. The feds released a photo of the rifle and it is very unique. He's calling me RN not answering. ROBINSON Since Trump got into office, my dad has been pretty die hard maga. I'm going to turn myself in willingly.

Alex Wagner (3:44)

Officials say that the suspect's mother is also cooperating with the investigation. His mother says that in the last few months the suspect had moved to the left politically and had become, in his mother's words, quote, more pro gay and trans rights oriented. End quote. The suspect is expected to appear in court for his arraignment in the next hour. We will bring you any and all updates. That is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush is here with me on set. Former top official at the Department of Justice, MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman's here. Also joining us, MSNBC senior political analyst Alex Wagner is here. And at the table as well, retired FBI agent MSNBC national security and intelligence analyst Chris o' Leary is here. Chris, we were together on Wednesday as a tragic assassination unfolded, literally in public. To see these private messages is such a harrowing bookend to such a public act.

Chris O'Leary (4:52)

Yeah, so what I haven't seen yet, though, and which hasn't been released is a real clear cut ideology behind this. It looks like it may be leaning towards perhaps something related to gay community or trans community. But I mean, there's, there's nothing necessarily here. He talks about his father being more pro Trump, but is that because he's reacting to the assassination of Charlie Kirk, or is it, is he acting out against, you know, his father's affiliation with MAGA World? So I don't think we see a real clear cut ideology here. One of the things that we've seen with school shootings and even the first Trump assassination attempt, these young men, a lot of young men similar to this have this nihilistic view and they're acting out, but it's not traditional ideologies. It's some kind of blend sometimes and nothing you can put a finger on. So you have some groups that champion this, but we haven't seen evidence of any of that yet. He's certainly in chat rooms that are consistent with this kind of thing, but at least the information that has been released so far doesn't really paint a clear picture of why he did this. We have the act and evidence of the act, but we really don't understand the guilty mind yet and what drove him towards this.

Alex Wagner (6:18)

We do have though, in the killer's own words, the premeditation and the length of time he was planning the murder. He says, quote, about a week and a half.

Andrew Weissman (6:28)

So obviously these are just allegations. So, you know, remains to be proved. That being said, if you are defense lawyer for this case, everything you're doing at this point from this moment on is about the death penalty. The proof seems overwhelming of guilt. Again, he will have his day in court if he goes that way. But everything is going to be about trying to figure out is there any mitigating story to tell. The selection of the jury will be governed by that. The presentation during the guilt phase is going to be governed by that. Any extenuating circumstances, mental health, whatever the issues are. Because it is absolutely clear from what's laid out here, unless there's a mistake, this is, you know, which doesn't appear at all. I mean, the proof of guilt here is overwhelming. The one thing now from the government's perspective, which is still got to be worked out and it'll be interesting to see how they deal with it, is the roommate, when did he cooperate? He has clearly got to be a witness because they have charges that are based on, clearly based on things that the roommate has said to him about destroying the documents, what was found, the conversations, on the other hand, you can imagine them looking to see whether he could be charged with obstruction, whether he tore up the document but then told them about it. So how you sort of deal with that will be interesting. And to relate it to your conversation about sort of ideology, they're going to be relying on the roommate as a witness. So they can't really go hammer and tongs, sort of anti trans to sort of put the political lens on it. If you're just looking at this from a sort of what the government prosecution has to do here, that's going to be a government witness and they're going to be saying that he's credible. So they need to sort of leave that all aside. And frankly, from a sort of law enforcement perspective, of course, you know, you want to know sort of who your people are and what their motives are, but it's irrelevant. I mean, this is a murder and that's the way you're going to be trying this case. But those are sort of two issues from both sides that I'm sort of thinking about now. What would I do on the defense side? What would I worry about on the government side?

Alex Wagner (8:53)

Is it customary to have this much evidence, this early, as a public.

Andrew Weissman (9:02)

It is unusual to have this email chain that's this explicit. It does suggest something that it doesn't suggest. This is somebody who really thought they were going to get away with this. And a sort of level of immaturity in terms of how it was done. I mean, that is clearly the most damaging evidence. Usually you have things where you're looking at, oh, we've got DNA, we've got fingerprints, we can sort of tie him to things, but you don't really have a confession here. He has told somebody he has a relationship with, who he would be candid with, who he then said, and get rid of this. You know, you're going to. In closing, the government's going to say, you see these emails. This is what he did not want you to see. And so it is unusual to have that much evidence. But that's why, if you are the defense lawyer, everything is about trying to what are you going to do to convince one juror to spare his life?

Alex Wagner (10:09)

Alex, it's been an extraordinary five days. We were, Glenn, and some of us were here on Wednesday when this happened, and to watch sort of the FBI's mixed messages. But then to see the role of the family and the seeming confession over the alleged murder. It's almost happened in parallel to all of the dramatic political events. And I wonder, sort of, as you watch it and having covered some of the violence that gets stirred up in the name of Donald Trump and adjacent to Donald Trump, how you've thought about the events of the last five days.

Nicole (10:52)

I'm really struck from the press conference today and from the filing about the sort of dissonance between his posture with his friends and his partner, roommate, which is one of almost reluctance. I have to do it. I'm sorry, I have bad news for you guys. And then the things we see etched on the bullet casings, which, you know, catch fascists, right? There's clearly sort of two sides of what's happening here. There's his motivation to kill Charlie Kirk, ostensibly allegedly, and then the sort of person he is with his loved ones. And those two things don't really. I mean, it's one person, but it's hard to sort of square the almost apologetic tone that he takes with his roommate and what he actually does, allegedly, and what he inscribes on the bullets. And I think, you know, if we talk about people who engage in violence, whether it's school shootings, whether it's insurrections, there seems to be, I'm not a criminal psychologist. But it seems like there's a more aggressive kind of sense of sort of donning the hero's cloak.

Alex Wagner (11:58)

Right.

Nicole (11:58)

That they're on a mission and they're going to do this and they're proud of themselves and they want the attention. And here it seems like you're almost getting to an inversion of that in a weird way, at least in his correspondence with his friends and family. And I wonder if that comes into play as you talk about the defense team trying to sort of establish this person should not be put to death. I wonder if that works at all in their favor. The other piece of it, Nicole, you talk about the friends and family. I hadn't thought about the fact that the roommate, of course, is going to be a key witness for the government and that the parents were the ones involved in turning their child in, who is now maybe going to be executed by the state. And this story is so wrenching on so many levels, but just the personal anguish that they must be feeling right now playing central roles in the apprehension and possibly the trial of someone they love is just, I mean, it's unimaginable on so many levels. But it just at this moment, I thought about them and how this must be for them, you know, trying to do the right thing, trying to cooperate, trying to, you know, do what needs to be done for the law and for our democracy. And just the humanity of it all is crushing.

Alex Wagner (13:08)

I mean, Glenn, I thought about the role of the suspect's roommate partner we're reporting is that that was a romantic relationship and the role of the suspect's family in turning him in. When I thought about all of your extraordinary reporting about Kash Patel and the FBI, I mean, this seems like a community that turned in their son and their partner who essentially confessed in text messages to committing a heinous, cold blooded murder.

Glenn Thrush (13:44)

Well, here's what the problem with all this is. The fact that Patel, who is clearly trying to make his bones and prove to the President that he belongs in that job, and I spent three quality hours this afternoon watching him do that at the Senate Judiciary Committee. The problem with all this is now we're looking at this and I thought Alex's explanation of this was brilliant. We're looking at this very complicated, very heart wrenching human story and we're parsing it for clues to determine what Kash Patel's role was in it. Do you see what I'm saying here?

Alex Wagner (14:19)

Yeah.

Glenn Thrush (14:20)

We kind of have this inversion of the story because it's like to a certain extent, it's like you want these folks to kind of get out of the frame and let the story be what it is and then draw the conclusions. You know, I've covered a lot of these shootings, and I was part of teams that looked, for instance, at the motives of Matthew Crooks, the Butler shooter who came within a hair of killing President Trump. You just can't get your hands ultimately on why they did it. I think these are far more coherent. This is a far more coherent trail. This was a more socialized person who is communicating to a lot of people. But when you look at these lives. And another person I remember covering was Teixeira, the airman up in Massachusetts who, for no reasons other than his social discord group, gave away a treasure trove of military secrets. There seems to be an attempt by these young people to lend a coherence to incoherent lives. We're in a very confusing time. I'm the parent of young men, and you hear this from them and their friends. This is an extraordinarily disorienting time. I don't know why this young man did this, but as I've covered many of these shootings and listening to the way Alex was describing this, there's something about, I hate to say it, murder in our society that sometimes to these individuals lends a coherence to an incoherent life. And I just to want. Want to point out that having to jam everything into this, the lens of what it means to the White House and what it means to the leadership of the FBI is to me, probably the most difficult part of covering this story. Because as we saw today, when we're looking at the actual evidence, there is so much there that is telling us so much about our country and why these things are happening.

Alex Wagner (16:15)

I'm going to need you to say more. I think that's right, actually. And let me do one thing. Let me just read. Let me read the counts again. Count one is aggravated murder. It pertains to Robinson's shooting and killing of Charlie Kirk in a manner that exposed others. I mean, this was, at its core, a school shooting. This happened on a college campus that exposed others to a great risk of death. Count two is felony district firearm, and it pertains to Robinson shooting Kirk knowing that it would endanger anyone in his path. Obviously, it resulted in Charlie Kirk's death. Count three is obstructing justice. That pertains to Robinson's removal and hiding of the rifle. And we have a lot of his own voice on the lengths that he went to to wrap it in a towel and then return it to his father and grandfather. Count four, obstructing justice, which pertains to Robinson's removal and hiding of the clothes he wore. He changed his outfit. Maybe some awareness that a picture could have been taken. Count five, witness tampering, that pertains to Robinson's statement to the roommate. In the exchange, we read telling the roommate to delete their text message exchange following the shooting. Count six, witness tampering, which pertains to Robinson's statement to his roommate telling him, quote, if police ask you any questions, ask for a lawyer and stay silent. End quote. In count seven, violence, offense committed in the presence of a child, pertains to shooting Kirk in the presence of children under the age of 14 who were visible at the event. I mean, this very closely could have been an event as horrific as it is, with even more lives lost. And it seems to be reflected in what they've charged him with.

Glenn Thrush (18:04)

It does.

Chris O'Leary (18:05)

I mean, this was, he was going after a singular target, which again, you know, as we look for the motive, it's going to be very specific to Charlie Kirk. And once they peel back, you know, the, you know, more digital media and more interviews with his associates, maybe we'll get to that. Something that's clearly definable. But to your point, this could have been a mass shooting, could have been so much worse. I mean, it wasn't and, and we should be thankful for that. But as we look for what the conditions were with this young man that drove him to mobilize towards violence, the governor of Utah points to social media and he's right, but that's a contributing factor. So if you look at the 10 years, past 10 years that this young man grew up in, in the post truth era, not knowing what to believe and what not to believe, where alternative facts, disinformation and conspiracy theories are more the norm, where partisan media is driving polarization, where we have all of this kind of just social unrest and we see the emergence of especially young men who are frustrated, they're looking for an outlet and they're falling into social media or on discord and the gaming community for connections. I mean those aren't real connections. And then throw in their Covid where everybody's isolated and everything else. So we have the conditions set for young individuals who are looking for some kind of outlet and some unfortunately choose violence. And you know, that's a real challenge for us as society to counter. But what the answer is not, is further polarization, labeling people demonizing people instead of saying we're all citizens. And this individual, as disgusting as he is for what he did or is alleged to have done, is a fellow citizen. And how do we address it and bring justice for the victims and prevent any more of this from happening?

Alex Wagner (20:17)

It's such an important point. And it'll be the work of a whole of society. With a couple notable exceptions to your point that haven't taken that tone.

Chris O'Leary (20:25)

Well, something we were talking about just earlier and somebody highlighted to me recently, understanding where the term idiot comes from. It's actually a derivative of the Greek term idiom, which meant somebody who was only interested in their own affairs. It meant they weren't a good citizen. They weren't a good member of the state. They weren't working together with everybody else. You didn't identify as a citizen or your neighbors as citizens. You weren't doing your part. When we collapse into tribes, into different sides of the political spectrum and start defining our fellow citizens as the enemy, we're going to see more of this political violence.

Alex Wagner (21:04)

Well, and it's the work of everything we do every day. I mean, we are led by someone who ran publicly on targeting and conquering the enemy within. That wasn't a hidden message. That wasn't the subject of investigative journalism. That was a speech given behind podiums. So I think you're speaking about society and culture. I think we also have to deal with what our politics has ushered in. And all that is complicated and tricky. And I appreciate all of you on this. I need all of you to stick around. No one's going anywhere. We should mention the suspect is going to have his first court appearance in the next hour. If there's any news from that appearance, we'll bring it to you right away. Also, head for us. Democrats grilled FBI Director Kash Patel today on everything from where the Epstein files are to an alleged purge of career FBI agents. One Democrat saying to him, quote, I think you're not going to be around long, end quote. Plus, this is how Donald Trump is being greeted in the United Kingdom. Protesters putting out a giant photo showing him and Jeffrey Epstein together outside of Windsor Castle. Imagine being a tourist today. It's a reminder that as much as Team Trump wants it to, the Epstein scandal isn't going anywhere. And later in the broadcast, an appeals court deals a major blow to the Trump administration's efforts to seize control of the Federal Reserve, ruling that Lisa Cook can remain on the Board of Governors. All those stories and much more. And deadline White House continues. After a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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Not all patients are eligible. Compounded medications are not FDA appro. Consult a healthcare provider to determine if treatment is right for you. It was an absolutely explosive day of testimony on Capitol Hill today. Going into today's Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, FBI Director Kash Patel faced rare intra maga criticism from right wing activist Chris Ruffo, as well as a lawsuit filed last week from three career FBI agents with spectacular and sterling reputations. Add two agents who are speaking out to the New York Times today for the first time about how politics has seeped into every Patel calculation and the botched communications around the manhunt for Charlie Kirk's killer and you have a tinderbox of tension from all sides for one Cash Patel. One of the most supremely important lines of questioning today came from Democrats in their search for answers and accountability, and it had to do with FBI personnel, specifically whether or not any of them were fired for political purposes. Here's Kash Patel's exchange with California Senator Adam Schiff.

Glenn Thrush (25:14)

Are you testifying today that you never terminated anyone at the FBI in whole.

Chris O'Leary (25:19)

Or in Part because of a prior case assignment.

Glenn Thrush (25:22)

No one at the FBI is terminated for case assignments alone.

Chris O'Leary (25:26)

Well, I'm asking about you, Mr. Patel.

Glenn Thrush (25:29)

Did you in whole or in part.

Chris O'Leary (25:32)

Terminate anyone at the FBI because they worked on the Trump investigation or because they worked on January 6th?

Glenn Thrush (25:40)

No one at the FBI has been terminated for case assignments alone.

Chris O'Leary (25:43)

Okay, you're saying alone. Does that mean they were terminated in part because they were assigned to a.

Glenn Thrush (25:50)

January 6th case or assigned to the Mar A Lago case?

Chris O'Leary (25:53)

You're being very precise here, Mr. Patel.

Glenn Thrush (25:57)

You're saying alone.

Chris O'Leary (25:58)

That means they were fired in part.

Glenn Thrush (26:01)

Because they were assigned those cases. Is that your testimony? Absolutely not. But if you want to keep one more, then let me ask you, let's.

Chris O'Leary (26:09)

Strip away the word alone. Did you terminate or participate in any.

Glenn Thrush (26:14)

Discipline of any FBI employee in whole or in part because of their work on an investigation of Donald Trump or.

Chris O'Leary (26:23)

January 6, yes or no?

Glenn Thrush (26:25)

Any terminations that the FBI by employees? I'm asking you a very specific. I'm going to answer the question. But you don't like the answer because it's no. I want an answer to my question. I don't want an answer to someone else's question.

Alex Wagner (26:38)

That's about as well as it went for Kash Patel. That testimony from the director, though the FBI, that denial stands in direct contrast in opposition, let's call it Earth 2 testimony to what former FBI officials are alleging in an incredibly detailed 67 page federal lawsuit. Washington Post pulled this from their suit. Quote, Patel then stated that his own job depended on the removal of the agents who worked on the cases against the president, regardless of whether the agents chose to work on those cases or not, end quote. It was one of, but certainly not the only vital avenue that was explored today by the Senate Judiciary Committee. Later in the broadcast, we'll show you where Patel's answers on Jeffrey Epstein, for instance, ignited passions among lawmakers and the FBI alike. But first, to better acquaint yourself with the tone and tenor of today's hearing, consider this exchange as well between Cash Patel and Senator Cory Booker.

Chris O'Leary (27:36)

I don't think you're fit to hand the bureau. But here's the thing, Mr. Patel, I think you're not going to be around long. I think this might be your last oversight hearing. Because as much as you supplicate yourself to the will of Donald Trump and not the Constitution of the United States of America, Donald Trump has shown us in his first term and in this term, he is not loyal to people like you. He will cut you loose this may be the last time I have a hearing with you because I don't think you're long for your job. But I'm going to tell you this. I pray for you. I pray for you that you can step up and defend your oath, defend the Constitution, and do a much better job of defending this country.

Glenn Thrush (28:17)

Yes, sir. That rant of false information does not bring this country together. If you want to work on bringing this country, it's my time, not yours.

Andrew Weissman (28:29)

My God. My God. You want to talk about fighting this country?

Chris O'Leary (28:33)

It is I follow you on your social media posts that tear my country.

Glenn Thrush (28:38)

Apart to address my time for what.

Chris O'Leary (28:46)

You had said, sir, you're committee, sir. You don't tell me my time is over.

Alex Wagner (28:54)

Only Keshe Patel can make one miss Matt Gaetz. Glenn Thrush is bylined on the Times reporting about the fired FBI agents. I should point out, Glenn, though this reporting today is extraordinary. Everybody should read it. These are two additional agents from the three agents who filed the lawsuit last week. Tell us their stories.

Glenn Thrush (29:15)

So these are actually the two agents that we believe played a role in Brian Driscoll and Jensen, the head of the Washington field office, getting fired. Because these are the two agents that they stood up for with Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, who also wanted them fired. So these are two guys, both of them decorated combat veterans. Jensen, who is the pilot. I'm sorry, Chris Meyer, who is Kash Patel's pilot until last month, decorated combat pilot. 350 hours in Afghanistan on three different types of aircraft. And then you have Giardino. Walter Giardina, who did two tours in Iraq, was in an intelligence unit that debriefed Taliban leaders. 20 year, 19 career year in the bureau, who are not at the moment credibly accused of anything other than, other than working on the Jack Smith investigations. In fact, Meyer was falsely accused by a MAGA influencer of going through Melania Trump's underwear drawer during the Mar A Lago search. And the guy was on vacation at the time and was not assigned to it. This is the level of kind of discourse we're dealing with here, both of these guys. And I got to tell you, if you've everi'm sure you've spoken to them, Nicole. FBI agents do not, but particularly field agents, not supervisors, are not fond of talking to the press, even under duress. So it was a big deal for them to tell us. Tell my colleague Alan Foyer and I exactly how difficult this was on them and how unfair that they felt it was. But Walt Giardina in particular, had an extraordinary story. His wife had stage four adrenal cancer. She's 49 years old. She had an adverse reaction to chemotherapy that caused her to pace back and forth endlessly. He was spending his days and nights trying to calm her down and comforting her while he was learning that his job was in danger, while he was trying to get the FBI brass to do a due process investigation. My story doesn't address the issue as to whether or not any of the allegations against them are true or false. They claim fairly credibly that they're false. All these two guys wanted was due process, a formal investigation before they were fired, and they hadn't gotten that. And Patel was told about Walter's wife's physical problems. Jensen begged him. And Patel not only ignored that summons, but then fired Jensen to boot.

Alex Wagner (31:58)

What did they want? Did they want to stay at the FBI?

Glenn Thrush (32:03)

Yes, I think this would have been the intention. I think, you know, Chris Meyer was perfectly happy flying around on these airplanes. He participated in prisoner transfers overseas. This is the work that these guys were trained for. You know, these were not folks who were aspiring in the political arena or wanted to make a lot of money or wanted to even trade in these jobs for more lucrative private sector gigs. They wanted to spend their entire career in the bureau. And Walter Giardina was a midshipman. He graduated from the Naval Academy in 1999. He commanded 100 troops in the first Gulf War and was involved in the several firefights. And he saw his FBI service, he told me, as an extension of the government service he undertook when he was a midshipman. So these areyou know, these are two individuals who, generally speaking, are the kinds of people that you want in these jobs. Unfortunately for Walter Giardina, he worked on the original Mueller investigation, though he didn't deal with any of the Russia connections. Connections. He worked on the Jack Smith January 6th investigation. And perhaps most unluckily of all, he was assigned to arrest Trump aide Peter Navarro on contempt of Congress charges at Reagan Airport in 2023, which Navarro has publicly called him out for. So again, you know, my story doesn't do a fulsome investigation of whether of their behavior. Chuck Grassley claims he's got two whistleblowers that say negative things about Giardina, but both of these gentlemen simply wanted a fair hearing. And now they are appealing to a special board in the federal government. And the only reason why they're going to get an investigation in due process, which might actually result in funding Gino And Patel being called to testify is because they were veterans. There's a special provision in the law that allows FBI agents who are veterans to have a due process, whereas if they had not been veterans, they could be fired without a cause.

Alex Wagner (34:18)

Chris I have had the privilege of both in government in the months after 9, 11, trying to get some people inside the FBI to talk to the press, to tell the story of what the FBI was doing to one, never again fail to connect the dots and two, reassure the country that we were safe. And I never met a single one that wanted. It was like a hot. But no, I don't want to call him. I don't want to. Literally, I never met anyone who served in the bureau who wanted to be talking to the press or the only thing worse than that was to become the story. I'm sure this is your experience as well. One of the phenomenons of Trump's two terms, and he's done it a lot more quickly in a second term because of the purge that he ordered, is to run out of the FBI the very human beings that could most likely make him a successful president. And there's something so sickly tragic about depriving the FBI, like the people in charge of stopping and catching the people that traffic children and women and international drug cartels. I mean, to take like the people who would wear capes if it didn't give him away and run him out of the agency for which he could get the most credit for doing a good job and the things he says he cares about is so sick and twisted and tragic.

Chris O'Leary (35:50)

Well, I think it's important to point out these individuals, they're like every other FBI agent that I've worked with. To a person, there's no political leanings. It's like an Irish pub. You don't talk about politics or religion. And as a leader in the FBI, if I ever saw it, that would be corrected very quickly. I have no idea what the political leans are of any of the people that I worked with. It's not a thing. FBI agents are dedicated public servants. We consider it a vocation. It's not something you do for a few years. It's part of your identity. Your teammates are like family. You know, I've agents over for the holidays. It's just normal. It's a close knit organization that is being pulled apart. And if you look at these firings and the heartlessness with which it was done, it's disgusting. But it also demonstrates the lack of leadership and integrity of the people who are making these decisions. So that's problematic. But I think to your point, what are we going to lose in the future? You know, a lot of this transpired last week. The lawsuit was fired. Contemporaneous with September 11, the FBI rebuilt itself to never again allow something tragic like that to happen. I will tell you, on the international terrorism stage, the threat level is higher than it was before 9, 11, but yet we're taking a fifth of the workforce and having them focus on immigration, violent crime. We're purging the FBI of all the leaders that we know can perform. If we look at the crisis in Utah, the Charlie Kirk assassination, two individuals were removed recently. Metab Syed was the special agent in charge of Salt Lake City field office. A career professional, she happens to be, and she was given no reason for why she was let go. But she's a female of Pakistani descent, a Muslim who has had an exceptional career. But perhaps she was thrown into the DEI category. One of the most capable agents I've ever worked with has excelled at every level, led at every level, built great partnerships and relationships. She was removed. But the other individual who was removed which this relates to is Brian Driscoll, who is the assistant director of the Critical Incident Response Group, the group specifically made to respond to this kind of event. And Brian has made a career over proving himself in a crisis, unlike Director Patel.

Alex Wagner (38:36)

Glenn Sarsh, I know you're leaving us to do some more reporting. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for your reporting today and all your reporting over the past days. Thanks for spending time with us, my friend Andrew, Alex and Chris stick around. Much more ahead for us. Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino has also finally spoken out very publicly and seemed to. I don't know him very well. I always want to buy him bigger shirts, but he has what sounds like a meltdown to me in the very friendly confines of right wing media. I'll show it to everybody. You can draw your own conclusions. The subject matter was a report that the Trump White House is losing confidence in him and Kash Patel, which is literally all over the right wing media. We'll show it to you. Don't go anywhere.

Andrew Weissman (39:26)

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Chris O'Leary (39:27)

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Andrew Weissman (39:30)

My latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems.

Chris O'Leary (39:35)

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Nicole (39:38)

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Andrew Weissman (39:55)

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Chris O'Leary (40:23)

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Alex Wagner (40:49)

We're back with Chris, Alex and Andrew. So, Alex, let me show you this Dan Fangino clip which speaks for itself.

Andrew Weissman (40:58)

Off the record said, wow, these guys are in a lot of trouble.

Chris O'Leary (41:01)

On the record, everyone from the president to Todd to Pam to everyone else says the exact opposite. So your story, not you. But the story's what knives are.

Glenn Thrush (41:11)

Where are the knives? Who's holding the knives?

Chris O'Leary (41:14)

The knives are out.

Glenn Thrush (41:16)

If the White House was unhappy and.

Chris O'Leary (41:18)

President Trump was unhappy, you and I have known the president a long time. You really believe the president's not just gonna call?

Glenn Thrush (41:24)

Just to be clear, I don't mean.

Chris O'Leary (41:26)

To get personal, but you know the president like I do. Do you think he's the type to not call you?

Glenn Thrush (41:30)

So I'm a little skeptical of garbage.

Andrew Weissman (41:33)

Reporting about unnamed sources who may not.

Glenn Thrush (41:36)

Like what I just told you, who are saying, oh my gosh, the knives.

Andrew Weissman (41:39)

Are out when everybody on the record.

Chris O'Leary (41:40)

Is saying, what are you talking about?

Glenn Thrush (41:42)

Everything's going great.

Alex Wagner (41:45)

Everything's going great. Let me just say I do remember a copious amount of reporting that Donald Trump wanted John Kelly to fire Ivanka and Jared. Like, Donald Trump doesn't actually like firing anybody. That was the TV show.

Nicole (41:58)

Ironically, he's conflict diverse when it comes to the people like five feet in front of him. You know how the right wing loves talking about people getting triggered and libs are snowflakes. It's like the most triggered people are the people in Donald Trump's administration. And you saw it even with KASH Patel at the Senate hearing today. All you have to do is suggest that the boss doesn't like you, that you're not long for this position, as Sen. Cory Booker said. Or Megyn Kelly needs to bring up some Fox News reporting that, hey, the boss might like you, might not like you. You might be on their way out and these guys lose their minds. And it is such a tell because it's indicative of the fact that that's the only thing they care about, that's the more important, having the access. You could accuse them of the worst things in the world and you'll get kind of a dyspeptic response. But then you say, yeah, but Trump doesn't like you and the world is ending. I mean, you saw with both Patel and Bongino today there. Trump has appointed someone a co director.

Alex Wagner (42:58)

Over there at the they like job share.

Nicole (43:00)

It's just like six people until, you know, a couple of them are fired. They know they're on thin ice. Right. This hearing today was all an attempt on Patel's part to, you know, kiss the boss's ring through the tv. And Bongino was clearly talking to Trump as well, too. It's the thing that animates their lives is staying close to Trump and staying close to power.

Alex Wagner (43:22)

And what Bongino's been reported to have done that angered Susie Wiles at least was to not be happy with Pam Bondi's handling of the Epstein files, which is the other big headline that Kash Patel made today.

Andrew Weissman (43:36)

Absolutely. But I wanted to go back to something in our last segment just because I just think it's so important for people to focus on who these people are if the reporting is accurate. And there's zero reason to think that it's not. Walt was fired over the objection of senior career FBI agents saying, can you just put this off because his wife is dying? Can you just wait? And the answer was no. And I think that just tells you every single thing about who is in that position. I mean, the level of cruelty on that alone is mind blowing. And then pair that with the performance that we just saw and the performance of Cash Patel. And I keep on relating it to my experience. Nobody, when you're at the Bureau, I assume most people are not sitting there waking up in the morning going, I can't wait to testify before the Senate or the House. It's not fun. That is part of the job. It is part of your job to have oversight. And Congress is entitled to that and they're entitled to answers and they're entitled to respond. Respect. Nothing about what we saw fits that bill. That it's the public's entitled to that. To me, that was the most shocking part of this was the entire tenor showed a complete lack of understanding what your job is and what the role is. And it is, I think reflective of the entire executive branch at the political level, which is that we are not beholden to any other branch. And you see it played out. I mean, no one likes it, but that's how you are supposed to behave and is what the public and elected officials are entitled to. To me, you compare those two not understanding your oath of office and complete cruelty in how you treat people.

Alex Wagner (45:51)

I mean, I think there's a third piece and I want to ask you about this. It's, you know, there's sort of a thing in pop psychology that a dysfunctional family will orient itself around the most toxic person. I mean, the thing about the Republican led Congress is that it's oriented itself around the craziest actor who's Trump. I mean, it takes two to have that relationship break down. I want to ask you about that. Alex. I have to sneak in one more break. We'll all be right back. Let me show you one more thing and then ask you my question from before about Congress. This is from Senator Bloomberg.

Andrew Weissman (46:29)

You've acknowledged that in fact they have.

Chris O'Leary (46:31)

Been in contact with you about personnel decisions.

Glenn Thrush (46:34)

The White House has been. Do not put words in my mouth.

Andrew Weissman (46:37)

We're on the record.

Glenn Thrush (46:38)

The White House, like any administration, contacts its agencies on the budgeting process and where it needs personnel and where the mission priorities are. That always happens. If they didn't do that, they would.

Andrew Weissman (46:48)

Be abdicating the responsibility to law enforcement.

Alex Wagner (46:51)

Didn't cash Patel tell us there was a quote, bat phone.

Nicole (46:55)

Yeah.

Alex Wagner (46:55)

Between him and Donald Trump. I mean, isn't there Kash Patel testimony that contradicts Kash Patel testimony on this question?

Nicole (47:01)

Yes, but I think, you know, logical consistency is not a hallmark of this administration.

Alex Wagner (47:06)

I know you'd think I'd learn, I.

Nicole (47:08)

Mean, to a degree it's just watching, you know, the parade of cranks make their way to the Hill and you know, ingratiate themselves to the person in the Oval Office who is presumably watching at least the highlight reel of this, maybe a YouTube clip or two. I was struck in the stories about these FBI agents who've been and especially Glenn's incredible and essential reporting the Times. And everything Andrew was saying is like, I thought about this in terms of what message this sends to anybody who ever wants to Be a field agent or work for the FBI or work for the government ever again. I thought of the interpreters and the informants in Afghanistan who were brought over here and given safe haven in the United States and are being thrown out of the country. I thought about our European allies whose lives in many ways depend on the liberal world order and the people that this administration has told, discreetly or broadly. We're throwing you away. We don't care about your wife. We don't care about the fact that she's dying. We don't care that you are two time combat veteran that ran a team of 1,000 personnel in Afghanistan. We don't care how you've served your country. You no longer suit our partisan ends. So you're screwed. We're throwing you away like a piece of trash. This administration will come and go, supposedly. But what this does to our reputation, as you know, the American government, the federal government as a force in the world, is so unbelievably damaging, and that will take years, if not decades to rebuild.

Alex Wagner (48:32)

I think about that all the time. And I think about all the people, all the great people we have access to who respectfully should be working for our country. I mean, you think about the purge that's gone on since 2017, starting maybe most spectacularly with Comm Ace firing and then going through the purge of the FBI, the purge. Purge of the Pentagon, the purges at agencies we never talk about because they're so opaque, we don't even know about it. The purge at the CIA, the purge that is ongoing. I mean, Tulsi Gabbard has fired people who put together intel assessments that said that trend. Aragua was not engaged in an invasion. I mean, it is ongoing and it's happening in real time. And I wonder, when you sit around and think about all the things that happen still in darkness, how do you ever get your arms around the totality of that story?

Nicole (49:27)

Well, I mean, I think that's the problem. People are like, where are the Democrats? Where's the resistance? The landscape of wrongdoing is so vast and so deep. We're like at the beginning of the forest, like you say, it gets darker and darker and darker. And I think part of it is people feel unbiased, unbelievably lost. The moral compass is spinning. There is no magnetic north. How do you even, I mean, like, how do you, how do you begin to find a place to root the outrage and begin to build back? It seems incredibly daunting. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take a moment to look at what's happening to our country in these, I think, telling the stories of discreet individuals like Walt Giardina and what Kash Patel did to this man who has served the country for decades and thought of his FBI service as an extension of his patriotism. If that's not the heart and soul of the flag waving, you know, American conservative, what is? His wife is dying of cancer. And the head of the FBI says, the acting head says just give him more time. Give him his day in court, as it were. Be fair. And they say, no, that's our country. We can't ignore that.

Alex Wagner (50:40)

Our colleague Alicia Menendez said to me in the early days, she said lots of times our job is just to bear witness. So thank you all for bearing witness with me. Chris o', Leary, Alex Wagner, are you leaving? I feel like we usually wait for two hours.

Glenn Thrush (50:54)

Actually.

Alex Wagner (50:54)

I'm shocked to see your name in the teleprompter anyways, but I'll read it and let you go. Coming up for us, FBI Director Kash Patel is called out for his past statements about the Epstein case. We'll show that to you after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.

Chris O'Leary (51:10)

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