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Deadline: White House
"Seizing the Reins: Trump’s GOP Election Vision"
00:41:30
President Trump called for the GOP to “nationalize” elections. Nicolle Wallace dissects potential consequences of such a power grab.
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- [00:00]
Commercial Narrator
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- [00:31]
Nicole Wallace
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Angelo Carusone
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Tim Hafey
And let me be clear about why this matters. Regardless of what had been stated, this is not about the 2020 election. That election has been litigated, audited, recounted and repeatedly upheld by courts and election officials, including lots and lots of Republican election officials. This is, frankly about what comes next.
- [01:33]
Nicole Wallace
Indeed it is. Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. Ask yourself, what, if anything, would Donald Trump be doing differently today if he really was trying to seize the reins of our elections from the hands of the American people, if he really was intent on creating a system in which, quote, find me 11,000 votes wasn't just clunky mobster style political pressure stuff, but a direct order from the Commander in Chief, President of the United States. Perhaps more than ever before today, these hypotheticals are surging through the consciousness of pro democracy forces. And it starts with this watch. These people were brought to our country to vote and they vote illegally.
- [02:16]
Tim Hafey
And the, you know, amazing that the.
- [02:18]
Nicole Wallace
Republicans aren't tougher on it.
- [02:20]
Angelo Carusone
The Republicans should say we want to take over. We should take over the voting. The voting in at least many 15 places. The Republicans ought to nationalize the voting.
- [02:35]
Nicole Wallace
It's shocking. It should remain shocking. But he's saying it out loud now and it shouldn't be a surprise to any of us, but nor should it become normal. Remember, his Department of Justice is in the process of collecting personal voter data from states provided either voluntarily or under threat of legal action. In fact, go down the list of what Donald Trump has said and done over the last few days, weeks and months. It reads less like breadcrumbs and more like an autocrat's roadmap on how to steal an election. Last summer, he not so subtly railed against mail in ballots and voting machines on social media. Last month, he told the New York Times he regrets not commanding the National Guard to seize the voting machines after he lost the 2020 presidential election. Last week, he spoke on the phone with FBI agents involved in a raid in Fulton County, Georgia, according to the New York Times, a raid that resulted in the seizure of 2020 ballots and voting records there. Now, in the face of congressional scrutiny on the matter, the director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard says she attended the operation in Fulton County, Georgia, because Donald Trump told her to. From the Associated Press, quote, Tulsi Gabbard acknowledged that she facilitated what she described as a brief phone call between Donald Trump and FBI agents who carried out the search, but insisted that neither she nor the president had issued any directives. Her letter to top Democrats on the House and Senate intel committees marked Tulsi Gabbard's first detailed explanation of her unusual presence at an FBI search, during which agents armed with a warrant seized hundreds of boxes containing ballots and other documents related to the 2020 election in Georgia's most populous county. As Congressman Jamie Raskin said, that's not Donald Trump trying to stop election fraud. It's Donald Trump trying to commit election fraud. Here's his colleague, Senator Mark Warner. Again.
- [04:31]
Tim Hafey
These are not the actions of an administration that's serious about election security. These are the actions of an administration clearing away safeguards while simultaneously inserting itself into domestic investigations, seizing election materials as they did in Georgia, and publicly calling for Republicans again to take over and nationalize voting in multiple states. When you put all of this together, it is clear that what happened in Fulton county is not about revisiting the past. It is about shaping the outcome of future elections and quite honestly, dismantling the very guardrails that were put in place to keep them free and fair.
- [05:21]
Nicole Wallace
Dismantled guardrails is where we start the hour. New York Times reporter Nick Corsanides here. Also joining us, former lead investigator for the January 6th select committee. Tim Hafey's back, and Media Matters President Angelo Carason is here. Tim Hafey, let me play for you the body Cam footage that shows the Fulton police and the FBI sparring over the search warrant to seize the 2020 ballots.
- [05:47]
Nick Corasaniti
The warrant will be amended slightly, but for all intents and purposes, what they had is what it's going to look like. We wanted to let her facilitate us moving through the building to unlock the gates so that we don't have to breach it.
- [05:59]
Angelo Carusone
Because one way or the other, the.
- [06:00]
Tim Hafey
Records are coming with us today.
- [06:04]
Nicole Wallace
One way or another, the records are coming with us today. What's that?
- [06:10]
Legal Analyst
Yeah, it's a plutocracy. It's. It's occupation by federal authorities into what is exclusively a state function. Nicole, you said it at the top. Elections in this country are run by states. That's part of our federal system. And there's just no indication, despite lots and lots of scrutiny over the years, that the 2020 election or any other was riddled with fraud. This whole thing is. I'm having trouble imagining the legal basis which the FBI would be able to seize ballots or election materials. I haven't seen the affidavit that supported it, but I can't imagine, given how much scrutiny this is, this has obtained over the years, that there's anything new here that would justify this. So it's frankly chilling and frightening that we have FBI agents intruding in what is and has always been and be a classically state function.
- [07:03]
Nicole Wallace
Angela, let me just level set, too. There was no fraud in 2020. And don't believe me, if you don't want to believe Brad Raffensperger was a Trump backer, believe Brian Kemp, a Republican Trump backer, believe Bill Barr, who called these lies about voter fraud bullshit. Here is Eric Holder, though, talking about how that doesn't make Georgia different. By and large, voter fraud is something that localities deal with and that isn't particularly widespread in this country at all. Watch what he said.
- [07:41]
Tim Hafey
They put in place all of these measures designed to stop voter fraud, when in fact voter fraud in any consequential way simply does not exist. The state systems that run our elections do so pretty damn well, whether they are Republicans or Democrats, Independents, regular citizens, you know, volunteering their time. There is simply not the voter fraud there that allows them to put in place, you know, a whole range of things.
- [08:12]
Nicole Wallace
And again, people that have looked at this after the 2000 election, former President Jimmy Carter and former Secretary of State Jim Baker looked at this, didn't find that voter fraud was a thing. It's not a crime. That happens. So what is this?
- [08:26]
Tim Hafey
This is the sort of the next chapter in this story about elections. I agree. It's not about going back to the past, although he's happy to do that. He's happy to get the vindication. But the truth is, as far as he's concerned, he's already got that vindication. That validation has already taken place. And what he's doing, though, is beginning to pull together the material for an overarching story or narrative that something is amiss, that something is wrong and they'll take because we're talking about the raid. But of course, that's just the first step here, right? They're gonna, there's gonna be a next step, something that they do that either reinforces the story or advances it. And he gets to make another big controversial statement about it. Maybe he'll talk more about nationalizing elections, but that's just as part of the story. That's the umbrella. Then somebody will go and implement. We'll move the bar again, we'll move the acceptable or what's normal even further to help move, you know, make it easy for him to manipulate or engage with or, you know, just poison pill the election so people have less confidence in them. So that's what you're seeing play out here. It is part of a larger story that is telling for this cycle and beyond. And this was the first sort of the opening page of this new chapter. All the drama, all the intrigue, and it will just be the beginning of a new thing. And this is going to gin up a whole bunch of new characters and a whole bunch of old characters. It's going to work its way to the right wing echo chamber. Maybe he doesn't nationalize the elections or not. Obviously we're talking about something that's a fantasy because he can't anyway. But who knows? He's so lawless. But the reality is that we're going to have to be confronting this is a new challenge here with an old story. And that's where we are.
- [09:58]
Nicole Wallace
I want to read some of your reporting on this. Nick, you write. Trump's escalated remarks about elections come at a moment when Democrats have outperformed the GOP in a series of contests. New Jersey and Virginia elected Democratic governors in landslides in November. On Saturday, a Democrat won a special election for Texas state Senate seat by 14 percentage points in a district Trump had carried by 17 points in 24, an enormous swing. Donald Trump let the truth about this slip out a couple times. He talked about how presidents parties typically take big blows politically in the midterms. And Marjorie Taylor Greene has also sort of spilled the beans that part of the reason she was resigning was because she didn't want to be in the minority and have to defend Donald Trump when he was impeached. I mean, the foregone conclusion that Republicans will lose and lose by massive margins is something that's been voiced by Trump, Marjorie Taylor Greene and others.
- [10:57]
Nick Corasaniti
Right. And it's something that's motivating so much of his political action. You know, something that we haven't even talked about yet is the nationwide redistricting push Trump started that he went to Republicans in Texas and said, I need you to draw me five new seats that will be beneficial to Republicans as a way to try and stave off a potential loss in the midterms. He's threatened lawmakers in Indiana who didn't want to go along with that. So, and he's said out loud that, you know, I'm afraid that if Democrats take power, they will impeach me. So, so much of the motivation, I think, is looking at the midterms and specifically the House, that he can't lose control of the House because that will lead to stymieing his agenda and possible investigation. So I think the Fulton county rate has to be looked at, that the actions of the Justice Department, I mean, his executive order in March that tried to change American election law, that was another kind of intrusion of the Trump administration trying to get into how states run elections. And it's all been kind of done with this backdrop of a political reckoning that could be coming, especially as poll numbers are sagging and history shows that the incumbent president tends to weather a bit of a storm in the next midterm.
- [12:10]
Nicole Wallace
Tim, have they won any of these cases in court? I mean, is any of this legal?
- [12:16]
Legal Analyst
Look, there's been zero evidence in repeated cases, Nicole, as we set forth in great detail in our hearings in our report about any actual evidence of election fraud in Fulton County, Georgia or elsewhere. This has been, as you said, investigated by the FBI back in the previous administration, by Attorney General Barr, by Brett Raffensperger and the election officials in Georg. And there has just still, despite the passage of time, been no evidence. But he's been talking about it from the beginning. If you remember, There was a very poignant moment that, that we talked about in our process, our select committee process, of a very pitched argument in the oval office on December 18 of 2020, and in which Sidney Powell and Michael Flynn wanted President Trump to invoke ipa, his emergency national security powers to seize election machines. And thankfully, there were adults in the room. Pat Cipollone and Eric Hirschman and Derek Lyons, the staff secretary, and even Mark Meadows, who basically said, no, that's crazy. There's no predicate. There's no basis to seize voting machines. Even Ken Cuccinelli at DHS pushed back on this. My fear, Nicole, is that there's no longer those adults in the room, those voices that are still focusing on the facts and the law and not giving in to the. The whim or the impulse of the president.
- [13:43]
Tim Hafey
Right?
- [13:44]
Legal Analyst
There were people that reigned in that impulse before and prevented stuff like this from happening when he raised it or when crazy people raised it to him. I don't know where those voices are now in the current administration.
- [13:57]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I mean, we do. There aren't any, right? I mean, that was why he took Pete Hegseth from the weekend Fox show, who was credibly accused of sexual assault. That's why he started with Matt Gaetz, who'd been the subject of a different federal investigation. That's why he has a woman who writes in her own book about the sadistic act of shooting her own puppy dog in the face. That's why he has this cast from the Star wars bar around him. Not because even he thinks they're good at their jobs. I mean, this was not the best people. That's why I stole the name. I mean, I guess. Tim Hafee, what I would ask you is, absent guardrails inside the cabinet, is any of this legal? I mean, will courts and judges halt it?
- [14:40]
Legal Analyst
You know, look, there was evidently a search warrant signed by a federal magistrate judge. So there has been. Now, that's a very low bar. That is, is there potential probable cause that there is information that sought, identified in the warrant sought to be seized that might give rise, might be relevant in a criminal investigation? It takes a lot more to actually have a consequence in the judicial process. There would have to be, Nicole, something much, much more than the very baseline level of probable cause to justify search warrants actually have a legal consequence. Thankfully, the guardrail of the rule of law, with federal judges interpreting that law ideally still stands. We've seen it around the country that judges recently in Minnesota have pushed back against some of these steps that don't have factual foundation. But the guardrails are tested. They're strained when they are presented with these kinds of challenges, thankfully, they will apply. They have thus far generally applied the facts and the law, but they are tested again and again and again.
- [15:48]
Nicole Wallace
Angela, this might be a dumb question, but this, this lie about voter fraud supposes that Ballots had just fraud on the top. I mean, a ballot is a thing with all the names on it. Right. So the Republicans who are sort of nodding along as Mike Johnson did today, is saying that there was fraud, but it was only on that choice because we all were sent back. I mean, what is the strength of the narrative? And does anyone buy it?
- [16:17]
Tim Hafey
Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's a broad concept because there's obviously, you know, very specific types of fraud that people can imagine. But it also does tie into your point about a narrative. And part of the narrative that they're saying is that there's a whole bunch of non citizens that are voting.
- [16:32]
Angelo Carusone
Right.
- [16:33]
Tim Hafey
This ties into this larger thing that we've been hearing through the administration that justifies a whole bunch of other actions and crackdowns we're seeing in Minnesota, which is that someone, whether it's Democrats or some conspiracies like the white genocide conspiracy, say it's Jewish people, but someone is importing all of these people not just to commit crimes, but so that they can then pad the voter rolls to have permanent Democratic power. That's the source or the so what or the why for why? They argue all this immigration is happening and that's how it ties in here, that, you know, yeah, maybe there was some, some malfeasance between Maduro in Italy and the company that owned the voting machines. I'm not just making that up. That's one of the big conspiracy theories. And they helped Joe Biden win in 2020, you know, or. But ultimately, at the end of the day, immigration is. If you actually get in there and you look, you'll find out that there's all kinds of different sorts of cheating. There's actual fraud, there's fake ballots, there's immigrants that shouldn't be voting that are voting. And that's what's adding up to Joe Biden win the 2020 election. And if you actually didn't have all of that, Republicans would never lose an election. That's the story. And what's scary about it is that that story is happening. And it obviously has a lot of traction. Right. They'll put a lot of effort into it. But then underneath it, some of the stuff that Tim was saying before, they're implementing. So one of the things that Project 2025 calls for is to take things that are typically done in the Civil Rights division at the DOJ and criminalize them specifically around election stuff so that you can not just get a couple examples, but then use even the mere threat of that to pressure other election officials in the lead up to the votes, when you're trying to lean on them to take certain actions. Now, do I think Trump came up with that strategy? Of course not. Is that in his mind when he's talking about nationalizing the elections? No, but there's already an on the shelf plan that a whole bunch of these individuals will be able to implement. And the last thing I'll say, and this is the tie in the person who had Ken Cuccinelli's job this time came from the right wing fever swamps that was pushing all this election information in 2020 at the DHS. Her name is Heather Honey. There are no guardrails now. And in fact, these people who are helping amplify these narratives to help execute these policies are in positions of power to take advantage of the story that Trump has helped flooding the zone with.
- [18:39]
Nicole Wallace
The insanity seems to be that Donald Trump expanded his support among the very voters that he's trying to purge from participating in our elections. Nick?
- [18:52]
Tim Hafey
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:53]
Nick Corasaniti
You know, the Trump administration's even, you know, conducting their own investigations into fraud right now, and it's not going very well. We did a story at the end of last year, my colleague Ali Burzon and I asking the Department of Homeland Security, you know, as part of their use of this SAVE database that's supposed to explore whether immigrants are available for benefits, they've been pressuring states to use this to check their voter rolls. About 50 million voter rolls have been uploaded so far. About 10,000 or 0.02% have been flagged as even potentially problematic. And we found through our reporting that that number is likely even inflated. There were counties in Texas, counties in Florida that when given a certain number in the hundreds to check out, would only find maybe a dozen. And often it was explained that they were erroneously put on the voter rolls and they never voted before, or they were not naturalized citizens when they were first put on the rolls, but have since become that. So even the administration's own attempt right now to prove fraud is not going very well, at least within using the.
- [19:58]
Nicole Wallace
SAVE tool, because maybe there isn't any. No one's going anywhere. Much more with the panel on Donald Trump's now public plot to take over November's midterm elections and what can be done to stop it. Also ahead for us, Donald Trump, at perhaps his weakest point politically ever, reportedly backtracked on his demand that Harvard pay the government $200 million. But hours after the New York Times broke that story and reported it, that Trump had backed down on that part of it. Donald Trump changed his mind, claimed it was wrong, and said now he wants cue Austin Powers voice. $1 billion from Harvard instead. One of the Times reporters covering Harvard's fight with Donald Trump and his administration will be our guest. And then Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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Tim Hafey
In some of the states, like in.
- [20:51]
Angelo Carusone
California, for example, I mean, they hold the elections open for weeks after Election Day. That's just one thing that bothers so many people. We had three House Republican candidates who were ahead on Election Day in the last election cycle, and every time a new tranche of ballots came in, they just magically whittled away until their leads were lost. And no series of ballots that were counted after Election Day. Were our candidates ahead on any of those counts. It just, it looks on its face to be fraudulent. Can I prove that? No, because it happened so far upstream. But we need more confidence in the American people in the election system, and it's essential. And everybody, no matter what party you're in, should agree with that. The, you know, mass mailing of paper ballots or mail in ballots and all the other irregularities that, that have, that have haunted us over the last couple cycles, we need to tighten that up. Now, the red states have done a lot of good work in that, in.
- [21:41]
Tim Hafey
That front, but it's the blue states.
- [21:43]
Angelo Carusone
That I'm frankly concerned about.
- [21:46]
Nicole Wallace
Really. I mean, should we introduce Bill Barr to him or Mike Pence or Brad Raffensperger or Gabe Sterling or Brian Kemp or Governor Ducey of Arizona or. I mean, who should we introduce him to, Angelo, to tell him that what he said was absolute bleep and bleep shit. Sorry, I bleeped the wrong word. I mean, none of that is true and he knows it. How stupid, how stupid is the House? I mean, what do we even. Why do we cover him? He knows he's lying.
- [22:19]
Tim Hafey
I mean, it's. You're right, he does. He said, can I prove that? No. That's why we need to dig more. He knows there's nothing there. He didn't have any single. He didn't know nothing to back it up. He's just saying it. And this is the part that I think his statement, I think is a reflection of something much deeper here, which is that I found that I recently learned this and it's very much disturbing, so now I'm happy to share it. So everybody else is disturbed, and that is that the King George III was more constrained by Parliament during the time of the American Revolution. Than Donald Trump currently is by the United States Congress. There's all kinds of evidence to back this up.
- [22:50]
Nicole Wallace
All I can think of is the, is the Hamilton version. So that's like quite an image.
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Tim Hafey
And when you think, let that sink in, that's it. What you saw there is a reflection of that reality. And so, you know, we should cover him appropriately as sort of like, you know, the facsimile that he is of an actual speaker of the House and an independent branch of government because that's, that's not what he's behaving like.
- [23:16]
Nicole Wallace
Tim Hafey, you looked at the, I mean, it sounds like, I mean, all of his friends run doj. If he actually thinks, what do you say there? Let's see. He thinks that three races were, I mean, it's not like you can't get an ally on the phone at doj. They're the only people picking up the phones at doj. I mean, is he accusing, is he alleging that there was fraud? I mean, I actually think that Fox News had a whole bunch of pundits on the air talking about a red mirage. I mean, I think this was part of FOX News election analysis because I watched some of it, that there would be more Republican leaning voters on election day. I guess the problem for Mike Johnson is that when you lose a Republican state Senate seat in Texas, the Republicans are voting for Democrats, too.
- [24:08]
Legal Analyst
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Look, I'm not the guy to ask about politics, Nicole, but I am a lawyer who's trained to deal in facts. And shocking that the speaker of the House can say I can't prove this, but go on to make a very serious allegation of election fraud. Somehow in California, look, all election analysts across the board in advance of the 2020 election told the president that it's likely that late ballots, ballots that are counted because they were mailed in, did they generally trend more toward Democratic candidates? Republicans tend to vote more on election day. Democrats statistically, for whatever reason, have voted more remotely. And therefore this red mirage of votes over the course of time as they are counted, not fraudulently cast, but legitimately class cast through other processes, are going to move the numbers toward Democratic candidates. That's what, what the Fox News analyst said just as much as everybody else. So again, fact, Nicole, separate fact from rhetoric. It doesn't make something true just because you say it again and again or because you say this just doesn't look right. Our elected officials ought to be trafficking in fact and ought to be basing their public statements when they're in positions of responsibility based on evidence, not speculation. And that's what's so outrageous about this, is that despite the lack of facts of election fraud over years and years of scrutiny, it is not as if this has slipped under the radar. There's been no evidence, and it's why it's irresponsible to put in a search warrant affidavit or to say at a microphone to the American people that I can't prove it. But there's something wrong here that's. That's shocking, and it's not how our system works.
- [25:56]
Nicole Wallace
Nick, I don't want to stare at the branches, even though they are unbelievable and miss the forest. The forest seems to be that Tulsi Gabbard's excuse for doing something for which she is peerless. There is no precedent for a United States intelligence community leader to really even travel domestically. I mean, it was typical, I think, in past administrations for any intelligence chief to alert the White House if they had any domestic travel at all, professional or personal, because it was so startling to see an intelligence agency head moving around domestically at all. Tulsi Gabbard's get out of the hot seat free card is that Trump sent me. That seems like a pretty big deal.
- [26:44]
Nick Corasaniti
And it's alarming election officials on both sides. Last week, I spent most of the week in D.C. at this conference called the national association for Secretaries of State. It's a bipartisan conference. It's the oldest bipartisan conference of election officials in the country. And every secretary of state I talked to, Republican, Democrat, was baffled. Even the ones that support President Trump, like, effusively, was baffled at the president's. At the presence of Director Gabard in Fulton County. They couldn't understand why someone in charge of spy networks and who herself is kind of the chief spy, would be involved in a domestic investigation into elections. And it's just created so much alarm that the administration is willing to kind of use this investigation, or whatever they might find in Fulton to justify further actions, actions that they've already telegraphed through executive orders, through comments from the president. And if we're to look at, you know, what Speaker Johnson just said, it's also using falsehoods that have been common since 2020. I mean, I can remember explaining the red mirage, possibly even on this program.
- [27:50]
Nicole Wallace
Yes.
- [27:50]
Nick Corasaniti
You know, five or six years ago. This is something that has just stayed. And the longer they go with it, the more risk they're putting their own voters at. If we're to look at President Trump's 2024 coalition. It was much more low propensity voters, first time voters, not as well informed as say it had been. In the flip side when Republican voters were more reliable, Democrats needed the low prop voters. So if you take those low prop voters, change the rules or, you know, try and make ballots due earlier, they might be, you know, hurting themselves, hurting their own voters in states like Arizona where they picked up a bunch of new voters in 24.
- [28:25]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah.
- [28:25]
Nick Corasaniti
So this whole, you know, disinformation campaign about late arriving ballots and what election rules are could end up aside from undermining confidence, you know, undermining their support.
- [28:37]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. And their margins. Nick, next time you're here, we'll talk about Bruce Springsteen, I promise. Tim Hafey. Angelo, you're welcome to have that conversation with us too. Thank you for joining me and starting us off up this hour. When we come back, a wildly unpopular Donald Trump at his political low point, really across the two terms is now desperate to cut a deal and not a political win. He blew up overnight at Harvard University and in Trumpian fashion snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. We'll bring you the latest reporting on Donald Trump's on again, off again and now back on again. Fight with higher ed. Let's have our quick break.
- [29:20]
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- [30:51]
Nicole Wallace
Facing political headwinds on really all fronts, with his strong issues now, his weak issues, immigration, the economy, Donald Trump is desperate for anything he can spin as a win. His tactics seem to be do whatever is necessary to strike a deal that he could announce and market with the top targets of his campaign to control higher education. The New York Times reported last night that, quote, Trump has backtracked on a major point in negotiations with Harvard, dropping his administration's demand for a $200 million payment to the government in hopes of finally resolving the administration's conflicts with the university. That's according to four people briefed on the matter. Hard liners in his administration had wanted Harvard to write a check to the US treasury as part of a deal to address claims that university officials mishandled antisemitism. But Harvard, wary of backlash from liberal students and faculty, has rejected the idea. Trump administration officials have indicated in recent days that that the president no longer expects such a payment, according to the Harvard and Trump officials briefed on the matter, speaking anonymously. Once Trump caught wind of the reporting late last night, he backtracked and attacked both the New York Times for reporting this and Harvard University before claiming that now he would seek, wait for it, $1 billion in damages from Harvard University. He also threatened criminal investigations into Harvard, likely torpedoing, at least for now, any chance of a deal he could announce. I want to bring in New York Times investigative reporter Mike Schmidt, who's bylined on that reporting, and Democratic strategist Columbia University professor political analyst Basilis Michael. So take us through that timeline. Do we have that right?
- [32:36]
Angelo Carusone
Yeah. So six hours after our story went online, Trump puts out these truth social posts that attacked the story. He actually did quote parts from the story that he appeared to like, but then said that it was what did he like? I read them all in the middle of the night.
- [32:57]
Nicole Wallace
I was there.
- [32:59]
Angelo Carusone
But so I look, they the he didn't like the story. The story depicted him as someone looking for a victory in any way, you know, in essence trying to cut the price for the potential Harvard deal. And this had been communicated to Harvard's lawyers. It had been communicated from Steve Schwarzman, the billionaire who's been a back channel between Harvard and the administration, he had communicated that to Harvard, but Trump said after it came out, and it made, you know, him look like he was looking for some sort of victory amid all of the bad news that he has had, he didn't like the story. And, you know, he went after us and he went after us again this morning. And sort of is what it is. Look, Harvard had gained a significant amount of leverage on the administration by Trump dropping this demand, by Trump saying he didn't, you know, want the. This money, it made it easier for Harvard to potentially do a deal. At the same time, the same reasons that Trump may be looking for a deal actually make it harder for Harvard to do a deal. Because while many people's view of Trump hasn't changed, the view of some people in the business world and the view of some people at Harvard has changed in the past two months. And they believe that doing a deal with him is beyond the pale, that they won't be able to do a deal with him because of the negative attention he has received for what his administration has done over the past two months.
- [34:31]
Nicole Wallace
How is writing a check to the treasury not paying a bribe?
- [34:35]
Angelo Carusone
I think that's a very valid question about these deals, is that how are these deals not bribes? And my guess is that lawyers will tell you something about how, you know, maybe every sort of negotiation and a deal in some ways is a bribe. But I do wonder when you look at these deals and the amount of money that might be exchanged through them and the perception of them, that if they, you know, about the question of whether this is a bribe, because I've talked to some of the people that have been part of negotiating these deals, and they say, well, why shouldn't, you know, why is it wrong to describe this as a bribe? And look, there's a legal term for bribe and such, and they find it very hard to push back on that.
- [35:23]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I guess the other thing is why is Harvard even at the table with Donald Trump? And if you've got a billion dollars or $200 million to write to the treasury, why can't you stomach the loss in another two years?
- [35:34]
Basilis Michael
Well, that is a big question. It's a great reporting, by the way. And I think the answer to that question is that this really is a stress test. It's a stress test on universities independence.
- [35:43]
Nicole Wallace
Columbia did a deal, we should disclose.
- [35:45]
Basilis Michael
Columbia did do a deal. It's a stress test on their independence, their financial model, their tuition and the free speech. And the reality is that Harvard makes decisions that a Lot of other universities across the country will follow. So they recognize the leadership that they have in this moment. They understand that their initial position, which was to fight a lot of people took up and said, yeah, please go ahead and do that, we got your back. So the collective action that is likely involved in their collaboration with other universities is at stake. But yeah, it's an important point, inflection point for them because their independence of colleges and universities goes back to 1819, a Dartmouth case that established that. So what Donald Trump is doing is using this money and trying to use this leverage to politicize research, to politicize speech on college campuses. You're gonna push universities into funding and promoting research that might be shaky but has a political end. Because that's the deal that these universities.
- [36:51]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and they're writing, they're spending money now on a federal government that's destroying monuments, that they plan to knock down the Kennedy center, they have destroyed the East Wing. You're putting money into the administration, the cabinet, ICE was accused today by U.S. citizens of, quote, attempting to execute me by one witness. I mean, to Mike's point, it's a very different moment to write a check to the federal government.
- [37:16]
Basilis Michael
That's absolutely right. So, yeah, I think, yes, you may have the so called liberal students and professors pushing back, but I think everybody's gonna be pushing back because they just don't like what's going on. They want to feel at least that the.
- [37:27]
Nicole Wallace
They don't want to fund it.
- [37:28]
Basilis Michael
They don't want to fund and they don't want. The campus is supposed to be a safe place.
- [37:31]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:32]
Angelo Carusone
I mean, but Trump, in his post last night said that he wanted to turn these investigations criminal on Harvard. And Harvard has shown that it doesn't have a true amount of ability to take the pain from this. They have wanted to negotiate a deal for much of the year.
- [37:47]
Basilis Michael
And it's just very quickly, all the great reporting in the New York Times talking about the changes with black and Latino students deciding to go to state colleges and of course HBCUs as well. Because of the chilling effect, all of these colleges and universities are being attacked. They don't want to have to be on a campus when that's happening and being unsure about their future on these campuses. So it is having a direct financial impact on the institutions.
- [38:13]
Nicole Wallace
All right, we'll keep this going. We're just sneak in a quick break. We'll all be right back. On the other side.
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- [39:52]
Nicole Wallace
We'Re back with Mike and Basil. Basil how has doing a deal with Trump and being seen in the views of some, including myself, as capitulating to Trump hurt if at all?
- [40:03]
Basilis Michael
Colombia well, there are two. The first is it adds another layer to the conversation when we try to recruit. Right. You know, what is Columbia doing? What did it do? How's that going to affect us? What about speech and the atmosphere on campus? And thankfully we've been able to get through a lot of that, but we make sure to get students onto campus just to be able to see. But it's also changed the model for higher ed because for a campus like Columbia and so many others that relied a lot on international students, everything that's going on with ICE and with visa applications has really dissuaded students from coming here. So we see across the board, colleges and universities, a significant decrease in international students and a corresponding increase in their populations in London and Canada. So, you know, and maybe there is an important conversation we have to have about higher ed economics, but doing it in a way where you're sort of under the gun and feeling the pressure is not the way to have It.
- [41:05]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. What would Harvard be investigated? Like, what crimes could they have committed? And would it be like a comey fake crime where they would try to manufacture something, or is there actual activity that deserves to be under criminal scrutiny?
- [41:19]
Angelo Carusone
So Harvard is the subject of at least 12 civil investigations by the Trump administration. I don't think it's hard for the federal government to find some sort of crime that they think may have been committed to investigate. We have seen them do that in a range of different ways. They don't seem. They seem to be able to open up and move on investigations on people that they want to, sort of, regardless of traditional norms of how you would do that. So I'm not sure that it really matters. And what Harvard. I think what Harvard officials struggle with is the fact that as an institution, they have never faced this many civil investigations and higher education has never faced criminal investigations like that. And what would that look like? Does that mean that you have a Fulton county situation where the Trump administration is executing a search warrant at, you know, you know, at Harvard with the Trump administration official there? That's something I'm not. Who knows? You know, they can say that they have found different things. They've done enough to open up these 12 investigations into Harvard. On top of that, the administration could move to try and debar Harvard from even doing any business with the government, sort of a different process, research. And all this gets to the point that Harvard has struggled to deal with the pain that Trump has inflicted on them. Up until a couple days ago, they had sort of, they had come to terms a couple days ago that they may be able to, you know, get to a deal and such, but I don't think they can get to a deal at a billion dollars with Trump behaving the way that he is.
- [43:01]
Nicole Wallace
It's fascinating. It's fascinating how he changes course midstream. Bezos. Michael, thank you for joining us. After the break, Officials in Arizona are continuing to ask the public to help in the search for NBC Today show anchor Savannah Guthrie's mom, Nancy. Very latest on that investigation is next. We want to tell you the latest in the urgent search to find Nancy Guthrie. She's, of course, the mother of our friend and dear colleague of many years, Savannah Guthrie, the co host of the Today Show. Officials in Arizona believe that Nancy Guthrie, who's 84, was likely taken against her will on Saturday night from her home. It's outside of Tucson, which authorities are now describing as a crime scene. In a press conference this afternoon, the Pima county Sheriff, alongside the FBI's Assistant Special Agent in charge shared that they had very few updates or answers. But they shared a new tip line. It's 1-800- call FBI. And they said that they will hold a press conference every couple of days as the active investigation continues. We do know that Nancy Guthrie was last seen at her home around 9:30pm on Saturday night. She was then reported missing around noontime on Sunday morning. Adding to the urgency, authorities say she has medication, medicine that she has to take that she's now been without for almost three days. Savannah posted these words on her social media account simply, please pray. She writes, quote, thank you for lifting your prayers with ours for our beloved mom, our dearest Nancy, a woman of deep conviction, a good and faithful servant. We need you bring her home. Again, authorities are asking that anyone with any information call 1-800-call-FBI. You could also call 911 or you could call the Pima County Sheriff's office at 520-351-4900. We'll post all that information on our social media channels so you can share it with your circles as well. We're going to take one more break. We'll be right back. Earlier this hour, I shared with you a little bit of what former U.S. attorney General Eric Holder told me about voter fraud on this week's episode of the Best People. He has so much more to say about the things we cover every day, the threat Donald Trump poses to America and our democracy. And you can listen to the entire conversation now. You just scan the QR code on your screen to listen. Listen to it and let me know what you think on Bluesky or Instagram. Thank you for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.
- [45:30]
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