Alex Tabet (4:28)

That's absolutely right, Nicole. Tens of thousands of people for the second consecutive week in absolutely frigid temperatures. And the difference between this week and last week is even more anguish, even more anger after, of course, Alex Peretti was shot and killed in broad daylight on Saturday morning at around 9am local. And that is just the latest tragedy that has befallen this community. And people here are angry. They're chanting, as you can hear, ice out, ice out. Yes, Commander Movino has been taken out. Tom Homan has been coming in. Yes, we have been hearing reports that ISIS changed their tactics here on the ground. They're less physically aggressive, but still, people are not happy that these thousands of federal agents are remaining in the city of Min, in Minneapolis. And in the words of so many people that I talked to, terrorizing this community. Now, I want to introduce you to one man, Jim. 70 years old, retiree. You didn't have to be here today. It's freezing cold once again. And yet you came here just for those at home who don't live in the Minneapolis area, who don't understand what it's like to live in a community where within 17 days you see a Renee Goode shot and killed. Five year old boy, Liam Ramos detained in central Texas and Alex Fredd shot and killed. What is it like to be a member of this community right now, Jim?

Jim (Minneapolis Resident) (5:54)

Well, it's really tough. It's difficult. You can't sleep at night, you watch the news, you know what's going on, you see what's happening in the streets. You drive to the store, you see stores closed, you see businesses, restaurants gone, schools. I talked to people at the various schools. Children are afraid to go. They're throwing out hundreds of lunches at high schools and grade schools. It's terrible, it's awful. People are afraid to leave their home. They can't get food. Even we have to have people bring food to them.

Alex Tabet (6:27)

And Jim, you tell me you lived in this area since the 70s?

Jim (Minneapolis Resident) (6:30)

Yes, I did.

Alex Tabet (6:32)

How long do you think it's going to take for this community to heal from this trauma?

Jim (Minneapolis Resident) (6:37)

It's going to take a while because I don't know, a lot of these businesses will go out of business. A lot of the restaurants are going to be gone. It's terrible. That's why I'm here. I'm here to support the community.

Alex Tabet (6:51)

And the last question, Jim, if you could talk directly to the Trump administration, what would you want them to know?

Jim (Minneapolis Resident) (6:59)

Well, I'd like them to get these people out of here. These ICE people don't belong here. They're like goons. They're running around on the streets. It feels like, you know, I love history and I, you see the sa Nazis roughing people up and beating people up in the streets. That's what it is here. If you're, if you're a brown or black person, they'll pull you over and ask for papers. You have to prove that you're a citizen. What kind of country is that? I mean, that's ridiculous. It's crazy.

Alex Tabet (7:27)

Jim, thank you so much for your time.

Jim (Minneapolis Resident) (7:29)

Thank you.

Alex Tabet (7:30)

And Nicole, of course, you know, once this is all said and done, once ICE does, if it does leave Minneapolis, the history books will remember the tragedy, the trauma that has been befallen this community for two months now. But what I also think needs to be remembered is the kindness and the resiliency of the people of Minnesota. Nicole, Every day they come out to protest. Every day they risk their own lives heading towards danger to blow whistles, to honk horns, to keep their neighbors safe. As federal agents continue to swarm and as we reported, indiscriminately, racially profile members of this community. I think the strength and the kindness throughout all of these tragedies needs to be remembered too, here in Minnesota, Nicole.

Nicole (8:27)

Well, as well as your intrepid reporting, talking to people who really bring all sorts of different reasons. They're inspired either by something they've seen, someone they're worried about, or, as Jim said, the parallels that he can't deny to what Nazis did, saying, quote, if you're brown or black, they're asking you for your papers. I want to ask you two things. One, if you could warm yourself up a little bit, and two, please, if you find anyone else that'd be willing to talk to us on camera over the next two hours, please bring them back to us. Wave your arms. We'll get you and your guests right back on television.

Alex Tabet (9:08)

Thank you, Nicole.

Nicole (9:10)

Thank you. I want to bring in Melissa Murray. It is a, you know, a high bar as a pundit in a studio, right, to make those comparisons. But for Jim, a citizen of Minneapolis, to say that what he's seen with his own eyes, what he's living through in his own city, reminds him as a student of history, of how the Nazis walked around. He said this quote, if you're a brown or black person, they're asking for your papers. I think this protest, this peaceful protest in Minneapolis, which is awe inspiring, that's a shot that I think captures the size of it, the scope of it. But I think when you let it sink in what people who are living there are living through, the use of a five year old as bait, as human bait to bait out someone by, by law enforcement, the killing of two US citizens on the streets. It doesn't feel like hyperbole anymore. This feels like a real across the Rubicon moment.

Melissa Murray (10:13)

I think it is across the Rubicon moment. Nicole. It's worth noting, as that Guest did, that there are real parallels between what we are seeing here and what we've seen at darker points in our history. Not for nothing, the Nuremberg Laws that essentially divided the Jewish populace in Europe into different camps were based on laws. They were codified, they were written into laws in much the same way that this administration is harnessing existing legal structures in order to mount this surge in Minneapolis. Again, ICE doesn't seem to be distinguishing between those who they believe to be the undocumented migrants who have criminal records and those who are simply citizens or individuals who are lawfully here but happen to be brown or black. And that is essentially what happened. That's why you had people wearing markers or stars on their clothing during those periods in the 1930s, to denominate them as individuals who were disfavored by the state. We're seeing that happen in real time. We are normalizing. The treatment of certain people in our society is second class. And we're watching the people of Minnesota resist that characterization. It's amazing to watch, but it's terrible that we have to see it.

Nicole (11:34)

So, Heilman, we did some reporting yesterday, recovered some reporting in the Washington Post, and today the New York Times is out with reporting about something that ICE isn't keeping secret, and that is the surveillance technology that they are using on protesters, that they're creating facial recognition databases. The ICE agents are actually saying this to protesters who are filming them. They said one said, quote, we now know you're a domestic terrorist. So we now know, I think, with our own eyes, the risk to their lives they're taking by being there with the killing of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode. But they're also risking, or they have already been swept up in a rather unprecedented domestic surveillance operation.

Commercial Announcer (12:22)

I mean, Nicole, it would be surprising, frankly, if, given the other excesses that we've seen on display in Minneapolis, but I would say also in some of the other cities that ICE and DHS have rolled into over the course of the past year would be surprising, given those excesses, if the, if the people at dhs, if Cash Patel, who's talked about, about hacking into people's signal accounts to try to identify people who are supporters of the protests in Minneapolis, I'd be surprised if we didn't see that. Once you've seen what happened with Renee Good and Alex Pretty, the idea that a government that was capable of doing those kinds of things wouldn't also engage in a thoroughgoing effort to try to, on the down low, identify those people who they call, as Donald Trump said today about Alex Brady, a possible insurrectionist, people who are our troublemakers, people who are enemies of the state, effectively, this all goes hand in hand. It's not, you know, we're not, we shouldn't be surprised to learn that. We should be horrified to learn about it, but we shouldn't be surprised to learn about it. And I think that there are a lot. There's been a lot of discussion over the last few days about whether this is a turning point and whether we've reached across some kind of Rubicon here. I think in many ways it is, and we have. But one of the ways that this particular element of the story makes clear is that the turning point here or the Rubicon that's been crossed is it's becoming quite evident that there are two sides here and one side. It's time to choose for people. People are having to make choices now that have extraordinarily high stakes for their personal liberty, for their continue to life liberty. Forget the pursuit of happiness, just continuing to live the kind of life that we've all grown accustomed to here and have probably taken for granted for far too long. But you're on one side or the other. You're on the side of freedom or you're on the side of tyranny. This is tyranny. And the lines that are being drawn both in the streets but also in the clouds are pretty bright now. And everyone needs to realize that that's the moment, the moment of truth is coming. Because this as bad as it is in Minneapolis. Everything we know about Trump and this administration, everything we know suggests that this is just a dress rehearsal for whatever comes next. And everything that's led up to this was a dress rehearsal for this. And now this is a dress rehearsal for what comes next. This is coming to a theater near you. Get ready, Rev.

Nicole (14:59)

This has been put in motion and this is being led and directed by the citizens of Minneapolis and Minnesota. They have done what no one has done in 15 months. Michelle and Alex and others who are on the ground report that they are not unafraid. They are, especially after the killing of Renee Goode and Alex Prady, very much afraid. But they're out there anyway. And what has followed has been a dam breaking. I mean, I think the sports world came out first. The NBA Players Association, I believe, is the only players association to speak as a, as a whole. But some NFL players have also put out individual statements. The world, the creatives who are traditionally aligned against things like this but had said very little three weeks ago, the Golden Globes said nothing. Not a single winner said anything in their acceptance speech. En masse, they are speaking out at film festivals and on their platforms. Bruce Springsteen has released a song, Minneapolis I saw today. It's the number one song, I think, in 17 countries. What has to happen for that side? That is, as John Heilman said, against tyranny to prevail.

Reverend Al Sharpton (16:15)

I think that what will happen and what has to happen is it has to be sustained indignation. You can't have a momentary minute of being angry or afraid and then let it dissipate. And it clearly says to me that there is some kind of difference in the Trump administration strategy, because one minute he says, we're going to de escalate. And Holman goes in and says, I come to Tampa down And then Trump's on the red carpet last night at the Kennedy center that he's renamed, say, no, no, no, we're going off. They don't even know what they're going to do. Which means you keep the pressure on. When your opponent or who you are facing or fighting starts making erratic moves, you keep the pressure on. You have today one of the most, I think, harmful, but will be a positive side for the movement side. When you go after journalists to go after Don Lemon, when the whole country is moving against you in the polls and everything else to try to shut down the freedom of speech. We're getting ready to have the 250th anniversary of the nation's history. Well, how can you celebrate freedom of speech if a journalist.

Nicole (17:38)

A First Amendment.

Reverend Al Sharpton (17:38)

A First Amendment. How can. I'm sorry, how can you celebrate the First Amendment when you're locking up journalists for covering a story?

Carol Lennig (17:47)

Right.

Reverend Al Sharpton (17:47)

So I think that they, in their own drive to be so in control, are gonna make enough mistakes. It reminds me when I was a kid studying civil rights movement, before I went in at 12, the best thing one of the leaders of the movement, Wyatt Walker, told me, was Bill Connor, because Bill Connor would lock up children. You've got to make them go too far. And I think Don Neman is the beginning and the continuing of them going too far. They will end up ruining themselves.

Nicole (18:18)

Right. Everything that they've railed against are lines that they have trampled across, either intentionally or obliviously. No one's going anywhere. We're going to go back to the ground, out to the field with our correspondent Alex and more of these brave protesters out there in the streets. Just look at them. Just listen to them. Wow. Wow. We're going to go back out there. On the other side of a break, huge crowds hoping to send the message to the White House that what we are living through, what they are watching and witnessing with their own eyes, the crackdown on refugees and asylum seekers and migrants and immigrants and American citizens, cannot continue. Plus, as the Rev's talking about, journalist Don Lemon has been arrested. He's expected in court this hour after he and another journalist, a fellow journalist, were arrested over covering a protest church in Minnesota. It is being described again as an unprecedented attack on the First Amendment by Donald Trump and his Department of Justice. Later in the show, a closer look at why the militarized masked agents and the FBI raid in Georgia together have voting rights experts and democracy watchers very, very concerned. This Friday, all those stories and much more. When deadline, White House Continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Our colleague Alex Tabet is back on the ground in Minneapolis for us. Alex, what are you seeing?

Alex Tabet (19:52)

Well, Nicole, we're marching alongside a huge banner of the constitution as protesters tell me they want to remind the Trump administration to uphold the Constitution. I also want to introduce you to Nikita, a 25 year old grad student here at the University of Minnesota. Nikita, your sign says stop taking my neighbors. Why did you make this sign and why are you here today?

Nikita (Grad Student) (20:22)

My parents are immigrants from India and it just, there's been so much happening with taking our neighbors, both by kidnapping and killing and it's disgusting. It horrifies me every single day. And I think we need to feel horrified because it shows that we still care. I think just I'm in clinical rotations right now and I've seen patients miss their appointments because they're afraid to come in. I see. I like have, I feel like I've become so involved with my community so recently and I wish there was more we could do besides keep like surviving day to day. It feels like we're being pushed to the brink of survival because people keep getting kidnapped, people keep getting tear gassed by just ICE acting like thugs. It doesn't feel right and it's so anxiety inducing. It's stressful for me on a personal level. But for everyone in our community who just wants to care for their neighbors, that's all we want.

Alex Tabet (21:33)

And Nikita, we saw last week tens of thousands of people protesting. Today, once again, tens of thousands of people protesting. When will you stop hitting the streets? When will you stop demonstrating against what the Trump administration is doing right now?

Nikita (Grad Student) (21:50)

When ICE is abolished and when everyone is held accountable for this. Like it doesn't make sense to keep, you know, thinking, when is this going to stop? I don't think it's going to stop until we the people keep speaking out and putting pressure on the government to actually listen to us. We're the people who hold them accountable. Essentially, the government should be working for us. We are their constituents and it feels very frustrating that no one in government is really doing anything right now.

Alex Tabet (22:18)

Nikita, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it and what she just said there, Nicole, we are the people who hold them accountable. That is what we've been seeing here in the streets for so long. Whether it's Renee Good, whether it's Alex ready, whether it's the hundreds, if not thousands of ICE verifiers who are in the streets with whistles, with cell phones filming these Federal agents as they continue to swarm the Twin Cities. The people of Minnesota are the ones who are holding the federal government accountable right now.

Nicole (22:52)

Nicole, it's an incredibly informed and moving interview. Alex, thank you so much. I mean, Rev, there's, there's an economic strike going on today as well. Just talk about the power of pulling those levers.

Reverend Al Sharpton (23:05)

The power of not spending money cannot be underestimated. Because when you talk to people in business, their language is profit, loss, net liabilities. And when you can have their liabilities start outweighing their net, they are gonna use their influence at the White House and other places to say, you've got to change this again. Talking about the civil rights movement before my time, it started with boycotts. Adam Clayton piled in Harlem in the 30s, Martin Luther King in the 50s. When you couldn't convince people morally, you get their attention economically. And I think the impact of that today is going to be very telling, as well as seeing the numbers of people out in the, in the streets, because you continue to dramatize the dissatisfaction.

Nicole (24:00)

John Heilman it's hard to overstate the impact of what is happening in the streets when you look at what has followed. As I said, the sports world flooding the airwaves and then using some of their pre game moments for moments of silence. The Minnesota Timberwolves have done that with both killings. Ben Stiller is out with a new statement saying, we've now seen the violent murder of American citizens killed in cold blood in broad daylight by masked ICE agents. These were our neighbors, their lives ended by armed militias entering our communities with impunity. They were denied due process in life and dignity in death by an administration who refuted the reality the world saw, shifting blame to the victims and creating false narratives about their lives in those fateful days. He goes on to say, the First Amendment names and protects the freedom of the press, yet journalists and political commentators have been arrested. Martin Luther King once said, quote, our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

Commercial Announcer (25:05)

You know, Ben Stiller is a good guy and it's great to hear him speaking out like this. And you know, as you and I have discussed on so many occasions on this show, you know, politics is downstream from culture. And so whether it's in the streets of Minneapolis or people in the world, especially of sports, which is the really the only civic religion we have left in America, people who make television and people who make art, those voices matter a ton. And then there will be people on the right who will dismiss them as typical Hollywood Liberals, I think it's important, you know, that, you know, Ben Stiller there mentioned Martin Luther King and now Rev has twice invoked the civil rights movement. The thing, the thing I think about when I think about the civil rights movement as an analogy, and these are not perfect analogies, but if you, if you talk to any African American who's in America, they'll tell you that there was tyranny that was being fought in the civil rights movement. Some people would say there was tyranny being fought in the Vietnam War, anti Vietnam War movement. These were long fights. Nicole. You know, Rev just mentioned in the 1950s, the Montgomery bus boycott was 1955. The Birmingham boycott was 19. The Birmingham protest and boycott in 1963. Selma's 1965, Martin Luther King gets shot in 1968.

Nicole (26:18)

That's.

Commercial Announcer (26:21)

13 years, 10 years from Montgomery to the signing of the Voting Rights Act. The Vietnam War movement ran from 1965, first big march on Washington to 1974 when the Vietnam War, when America's involved in the Vietnam War ended. You know, the anti apartheid movement in South Africa starts in like 1959 and runs to 1994. I don't want to be depressing, but this, if what we're seeing on the streets here is reminiscent and redolent of all of those movements and the people power on display is inspiring. But I think everyone needs to understand that if we want to disrupt accurately what's happening as tyranny, as moving from an administration that kind of has autocratic ambitions or authoritarian ambitions to one that is actively seeking autocratic and authoritarian power and killing American citizens in the streets for doing nothing but protesting nonviolently. If that's the analogy, people need to, as I said before, this is coming to a theater near you, and people need to buckle up for a long fight. Like, I pray that it's not an 8 or 10 or 15 year fight. But people should be ready for the fact that the other side here is determined, is ruthless and has millions of people, fewer than our side has, but has millions of people on its side. And so people need to get ready for that and begin to strategize in a way that takes the long view and is determined and steeled for a kind of conflict, ideally a nonviolent conflict. But again, we've seen the other side willing to resort to violence. People have to be ready for what's coming because this is not a thing that's going to end when the siege of Minneapolis ends, whenever that is, hopefully soon. But the fight is not going to end. And we now know what the other side is capable of. And when I say the other side, I don't mean the Republican Party. I mean the people who are against Team Democracy.

Nicole (28:21)

No one's going anywhere. I want to bring Melissa Murray back in on this conversation. We have to sneak in a break. First, we're also going to turn to the other big story of the day, the shocking arrest of two journalists who are covering protests in Minneapolis. Those arrests made at the direction of Pam Bondi. So says Pam Bondi, despite pushback from judges and prosecutors. We'll have the latest from their court appearances next.

Carol Lennig (28:48)

I wanted to alert the public that.

Nicole (28:52)

Agents are at my door right now.

Carol Lennig (28:54)

This is all stemming from the fact that I filmed a protest as a member of the media. It's hard to understand how we have a constant, a constitution, constitutional rights, when you can just be arrested for being a member of the press. You and we, we've seen all these violations. All right, you guys, I gotta go. They're knocking.

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Melissa Murray (30:18)

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Nicole (30:51)

It'S an extraordinary thing to live through, to see in real time happening in your country and in your profession. It's a line that we as a country cannot uncross. The Trump administration has arrested two journalists today, former CNN anchor Don Lemon and Georgia Ford, whose video you just saw. Right there she goes on to say that her children are impacted by this after they both documented protests that took place inside a church in Minneapolis. The protests inside the church took place in the immediate aftermath of the killing of Renee Nicole Goode. Protesters interrupted services at a church where an Immigration and Customs Enforcement official serves as a pastor. And those protesters chanted ice out. Lemon and Ford were there covering it and they were indicted on two civil rights conspiracy against freedom of religion and interfering with the exercise of freedom of religion at a place of worship. They face up to 10 years in prison. Attorney General Pam Bondi announced the arrests of Lemon and Ford along with two other act along with two activists in a post on social media this morning saying the arrest occurred at her direction. In a video statement under that said, quote, under President Trump's leadership in this administration, you have the right to worship freely and safely. If you violate that sacred right, we are coming after you, end quote. It comes after lawyers and judges have pushed back against the Justice Department on charging Lemon. A federal magistrate judge declined to approve a criminal complaint against Don Lemon last week. And our own Carolina reports that many career prosecutors who are still inside DOJ after the last 15 months are still there. People inside both the Minnesota and Los Angeles offices who've seen everything else that has happened where Lemon was arrested, that was the Los Angeles office refused to be involved in charging Don Lemon and others around covering this church protest. They know the evidence does not back up the charges which require use of force or threat of it. Here's some of Don Lemon's own footage from when he was covering the protests. Take a look. So the protesters are confronting.

Commercial Announcer (33:10)

Church members and leaders. They stopped the service. A lot of people.

Reverend Al Sharpton (33:15)

Number of people have left.

Commercial Announcer (33:17)

There are some who are still sitting here.

Reverend Al Sharpton (33:29)

I'm just here. I'm not. I'm just here photographing. I'm not part of.

Commercial Announcer (33:34)

I'm not part of the group.

Reverend Al Sharpton (33:35)

I'm just here photographing. I'm a journalist.

Nicole (33:40)

I want to bring in to our coverage senior investigative reporter Carol Lennig. Melissa John and the Rev are still here. Carol, tell us this is a fast moving story. Tell me what you're hearing.

Carol Lennig (33:51)

Yeah, today has been fast. So this morning, pretty much as soon as msnow and other outlets confirmed that Don Lemon and several other people had been arrested in an alleged conspiracy to threaten people and block them from attending their church service in St. Paul.

Jim (Minneapolis Resident) (34:10)

Call.

Carol Lennig (34:11)

Minutes after that news broke, we were learning from sources that career prosecutors in Minnesota and Los Angeles had resisted. Many of them resisted being involved in this case because they do not see how the facts that have been gathered, the evidence that is obviously videotaped, and you've shown some of it, Nicole, how any of those facts line up with the charges that have now been brought. That reporting is vindicated now by the fact that the people who actually signed the charges here in this case were all political appointees, top level people in the U.S. department of justice, including Harmeet Dhillon, Pam Bondi and some other. Dan Rosen, the acting U.S. attorney in Minnesota. No career individuals signed that document. The next thing that we're learning, Nicole, and I'll jump to it quickly because it just broke moments ago, is that we have learned from two sources that the FBI's acting chief in the Minnesota office has been removed from that office. It is based in Brooklyn Park, a suburb just north, you know, several miles north of the center of Minneapolis, but it's considered the Minneapolis field office. And that person is out amid his agents resisting bringing some of these charges and amid their dispute with how the government, the Department of Justice, refused to investigate the shooting of Renee Good as a civil rights investigation.

Nicole (35:49)

Carol, what do you think happens next? I mean, the resistance to the arrest of Don Lemon takes place, as you said, both in the judicial branch and inside and within the executive branch. And it proceeds. Do you see it heading down a path like the attempts to indict Comey and Tish James, or tell me what you think happens next.

Carol Lennig (36:13)

So there is one. I am going to be a little bit nerdy and say there is one amazing similarity between what's happening with the push to arrest protesters in that and also Don Lemon, a journalist in that church. And protesters generally, as you see on the screen now, who have resisted and filmed and chanted as ICE agents have been rounding up individuals in the street surrounding cars, blocking in people of color in what they call a targeted immigration raid. The similarity is that the career folks who run the FBI and who run the the administration of justice and the U.S. attorney's office, U.S. those units are being hollowed out. And that is exactly what happened when in Virginia, in the Eastern District of Virginia. And Donald Trump insisted that former FBI Director Jim Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James sort of high on his perceived enemies list, that they be indicted. And in those offices, people basically resigned in protest or were pressured to depart over and over again. And now that office is quite, I wouldn't say gutted, I would say quite weakened. And the same is happening in Minnesota. Sources we have on the ground there say that the U.S. attorney's office in Minnesota runs about 80 prosecutors and now is down since Trump's inauguration and accelerated by these immigration disputes, is down to 40 to 35 now.

Nicole (37:52)

Melissa Marie it is such a dramatic overhaul that it almost is bizarre to say out loud, but they are criminalizing protest. And what Caroline is describing is almost the tail, right? So the tail of that is that is that the prosecutors and the investigators who would have to actually make those cases in court in front of judges are the people who have left, leaving it empty and only with the people who are carrying out the criminalization of protests. It is so, you know, back to the resume is so foundational that it's just extraordinary to see it happening in real time before our eyes.

Melissa Murray (38:27)

It is extraordinary, but it's a classic authoritarian tactic to silence dissent and to use the legal system to do it. What's really interesting about the law under which the administration purports to prosecute Don Lemon and these others is that it's a law that was intended to secure access to abortion clinics. It's the FACE act, the Freedom of Access to Clinic entrances Act of 1994 that signed into law by Bill Clinton after a number of violent episodes outside of abortion clinics throughout the United States. There is a provision in the law that was passed as part of a compromise to get it through both chambers of Congress that also specifies that it protects a right to worship in houses of worship and prevent the obstruction or interference of worshiping in places of worship. And that's obviously how this has come to pass to be used against Don Lemon and the other independent journalists. Journalists. But it is also worth noting that at the beginning of his administration, Donald Trump actually pardoned a number of anti abortion protesters who had been convicted under the Face Act. And the new Trump doj, very soon after taking office, issued a memo saying that they would reserve prosecutions under the FACE act and abortion related cases to those where there were extraordinary circumstances, such as real aggravating factors like the use of violence. They did not impose the same kinds of hurdles for prosecutions or civil actions for interference with places of worship. So again, a different standard here for those protesting abortion and those in places of worship exercising their First Amendment rights.

Nicole (40:09)

I'm asking all of you to stick around. I'm just taking a quick break. We'll all be right back on the other side monitoring live events in Minneapolis and across the country. Carol Lennock, thank you for bringing us your reporting. Please come back if there are any developments. We will be right back.

Carol Lennig (40:26)

My mom has been a documenter and a member of the press for as long as I can remember being alive for 17 years. My mom is being arrested for documenting what happened at City Church and this is wrong. This goes against her First Amendment right as a journalist and it's being challenged today. She is not a protester. She is not an activist. She is a mom working to provide for her children through the only way she knows how. Documenting and sharing stories of the community and truth of what's happening here every day in our state. This moment of history just doesn't affect me. It also affects my little sisters who had to wake up and comprehend at the ages of 7 and 8 why their mom had to be arrested to be my 7 and 8 year old sister woke up today without a mom.

Melissa Murray (41:21)

This is a Monday.com ad, the same Monday.com designed for every team. The same Monday.com with built in AI scaling your work from day one the same Monday.com with an easy and intuitive setup. Go to Monday.com and try it for free.

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Nicole (42:20)

Just leaves you with nothing to say. This is America under Donald Trump.

Reverend Al Sharpton (42:25)

It is America under Donald Trump. As long as we allow it. I think two things we need to really keep in mind. One is that that when the civil rights movement that we referred to and anti war movement were fighting, they were fighting to change laws. It was against the law for blacks to sit in front of the bus or to drink from a water fountain. They had changed laws, voting rights changed laws. All we have to do is make them enforce the laws and not they're.

Nicole (42:54)

The ones breaking the laws.

Reverend Al Sharpton (42:56)

They're the ones breaking the laws and making law enforcement do that. I mean let's not forget we have a man that pardoned people that defaced and desecrated the US Capitol and violently beat police. He pardoned them and he's going to call a mother of terrorist who was unarmed and shot in the car. So I mean if we keep the pressure on and people say wait A minute. You pardon the January 6th people and you say, this woman is a terrorist. The law is on our side. The second thing is Donald Trump is not an ideologue. He's an entertainer. And they're ideologues that are pushing, pulling strings behind him. But if his popularity continues to go down and you get some of those ideologues where he's saying, wait a minute, I don't want to be unpopular this long, he will switch in a minute. He will change the concert in the middle of the concert and go from folk songs to rock and roll. He plays to the audience. And as his audience diminishes, he will change. So let's not give him credit that he's leading a new ideology. There are those around him that want that he's just Elvis. He's not Colonel Parker, John Heilman.

Nicole (44:11)

These are live images of Los Angeles. I think there's something to what the Rev is saying that sort of counters your argument that we're in for a 5, 10 year struggle in that Donald Trump, if he were convinced that it was a terrible, toxic brand, I could see him being convinced by any Kid Rock or Mamdani, who he thinks is a winner of all winners to abolish ice. And I'm not saying that what would sprout up in its place would necessarily be better as long as Stephen Miller's around, but I think that these protests and the collapse of any. Not only has culture collapsed in terms of the manosphere and Joe Rogan and Shane Gillis and all of the podcast bros, I mean, the only people standing in them right now is the joker who made the documentary and Tim Cook who wore tux the day after Alex Preddy was killed. I mean, there are no sports figures at the White House this week. There are not a lot of statements on social media from business leaders backing up the mission of ice. He has lost independence, he has lost culture, he has lost sports. And the public shows no signs of going inside to get out of the cold anytime soon.

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Right. So that's a, that's a, I know you're, you're not big on rose colored glasses, Nicole, or, or you, you've learned hard, the hard way about being Panglossian and kind of assuming that Donald Trump will, will just will follow any kind of rational path. I, I, I want to be clear. I'm not predicting this is going to go on for that long. I'm, I'm saying that people who are, who, who, if you want to characterize this fight as a fight against tyranny. You need to be ready for this fight to go on for longer than just this one moment. And that's my point. And I hope, pray that it won't go on for very long and that the midterm elections will be beginning of the turning of the corner in terms of who exercises power in the country. But I think people need to be prepared for a long fight because people who are determined. I agree that to Rev's point that Donald Trump is not the most ideological person in that administration. But I will say that a couple days ago, when it looked like Trump was ready to start to ship course on Minneapolis because the tides of popularity and culture were turning against him, he's now back calling Alex Pretty an insurrectionist again and throwing journalists in jail. And just to say, I don't know what exactly is motivating him at this point, but there are people in his ear, I think, who are telling him that, A, he's doing the right thing and B, that power, even in the face of large public opposition, that power must be seized here in order to pursue the righteous path as they see it in terms of policy. The last thing I'll say about Georgia Ford and about Don Lemon, just to get in on that very quickly, two noticeable things that they have in common, both of them are black and both of them are independent journalists. They do not have large corporate media empires behind them. There's something more to be said about that, but we don't have time.

Nicole (47:18)

Well, to be continued. I mean, it's a good point. And they're famous, right? I mean, people, you know, they are people whose readers and viewers depend on them. So the impact will be immediate and will be covered, which is another piece that Trump always covets. John Hellman, thank you. Melissa Murray, thank you for spending the hour with us. We want to mention Melissa is the author of a comprehensive and annotated guide to the US Constitution, something all of us should keep on us these days. And the Reverend Al Sharpton, thank you. Tomorrow in Politics Nation, you've got an interview with House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. That will be must see TV will all be watching. That's tomorrow at 5 o'. Clock. After the break for us, back to the streets of Minneapolis where the 8 degree temperature is not keeping people from making their voices heard today. Much more news to come. Don't go anywhere.

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