← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“So many unanswered questions”
00:42:16
Nicolle Wallace on the latest on the Charlie Kirk assassination and how the Trump administration is straying from decades of foreign policy in Latin America.
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Nicole Wallace
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Nicole Wallace
Hi there everyone. It's 4 o' clock in New York. It is 2pm in Utah where a suspect is in custody in in the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk, putting an end to a two day manhunt. @ a press conference earlier today, the suspect was identified as a 22 year old Utah resident. He is expected to face charges in the coming days. He was taken into custody overnight Thursday around 250 miles from the site of the shooting at Utah Valley University. At this point in the investigation, officials say there is no information that would lead to any additional arrests, but they emphasize that their investigation is ongoing. Utah Governor Spencer Cox revealed that the suspect had either confessed or implied to a family member that he was responsible for carrying out the shooting. That family member then informed a friend who contacted the Washington County Sheriff's Office with that information. Any motive for the shooting at this hour remains unclear, but the governor revealed that officials interviewed a family member who said the suspect had become more political in recent years and had recently spoken about Kirk coming to Utah Valley University and had discussed how he did not like Kirk. The governor also gave further details about what the investigation has found so far, including messages the suspect is said to have sent to a roommate.
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Ken Kendalini
The content of these messages included messages affiliated with the contact Tyler stating a need to retrieve a rifle from a drop point, leaving the rifle in a bush messages related to a to visually watching the area where a rifle was left and a message referring to having left the rifle wrapped in a towel. The messages also refer to engraving bullets and a mention of a scope and the rifle being unique.
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Nicole Wallace
Officials say they found unfired bullets with the rifle they recovered, engraved with a variety of messages, including one that reads, quote, hey fascist comma catch. In announcing the arrest, Governor Cox also took the opportunity to try to ease the tensions of this moment.
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Ken Kendalini
I think we need more moral clarity right now. I hear all the time that words are violence. Words are not violence. Violence is violence. And there is one person responsible for what happened here. And that person is now in custody and will be charged soon and will be held accountable.
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Nicole Wallace
It's where we start today with New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush. Also back with us, former FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge Michael Feinberg. He is now a fellow at Lawfare and Justice and intelligence correspondent for msnbc. Kendallanian is here. Can you, Delaney, and we have started with you. It is an almost sort of perfect 24 hour interval and so much has changed. Just take us through how the suspect came to be known to law enforcement.
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Delaney
Yeah, it's really been a dramatic day, Nicole, after a night last night where the FBI appeared to be at loggerheads. You know, there was that nighttime news conference where they basically made clear they had no idea who the suspect was or where the suspect was. And they were appealing to the public for help. And they released some new photos and videos. And then this morning, Donald Trump reveals to the world while live on Fox News that they've caught the suspect. And what we've learned now from the news conference and from the affidavits that have been filed in court is that a family member of the suspect, we believe it was his father, somehow was led to believe, either through a confession or something, that the suspect said that his son was, was the killer. And so he reached out to a family friend. Donald Trump referred to that friend as a minister, who then put him in touch with local authorities, and they surrendered at the Washington County Sheriff's Office. Now, there's really sort of two categories of information that authorities have given us today. They've given us a lot of evidence that suggests that they're positive that this is the shooter and he acted alone, including that he was wearing the same clothes when they surveilled him this morning that he was wearing on a video that they saw on the day of the shooting at the university. And also the car, a Dodge Challenger. And then the evidence you just referred to about the rifle, you know, him referring to hiding a rifle wrapped around a towel. That's what they found. They found what they say is the murder weapon, a bolt action rifle wrapped in a towel in the woods. But they've also given us some information hinting at a possible motive or a state of mind, as you said. They're quoting a family member as saying they had a conversation with Tyler Robinson about Charlie Kirk and that they didn't like Charlie Kirk. And then these writings on the bullet casings, including an anti fascist song and some other kinds of messages. But there's still so much we don't know. We know that he attended one semester of college and that his parents live in a middle class neighborhood in a six bedroom house in a Republican area of Utah, and that this suspect was registered unaffiliated. And you know, the writings on the casings appear to suggest he's been marinating in meme culture online. But we don't know about his state of mind. We don't know whether he had any interactions with the mental health system. He doesn't appear to have had much of a criminal record. But there's so many unanswered questions about his motive and how, you know, a 22 year old young man in Utah that seemed to have been raised in a normal family situation decides he has to go out and allegedly take a life in such a horrific way.
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Nicole Wallace
Nicole Glenn Thrush, I know you've been reporting on all aspects of the story in the same way that Kendall Indian has, but I've read a lot of your reporting on not just the role of the FBI, but the public statements, sometimes contradicting each other and sometimes contradicting local law enforcement. Can you take us through the last 24 hours at the FBI?
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Glenn Thrush
Well, it has been the most consequential 2436 hour period of Kash Patel's turbulent tenure at the FBI. Look, he is really kind of hidden behind a wall of social media. He doesn't interact with the mainstream media because he claims that they're innately biased against. He has sued reporters. So we haven't really gotten a look at Kash Patel in action in the middle of a big investigation before. And let me tell you, we've gotten a good look at him over the past 36 hours and a lot of the tendencies that he had as a kind of a Trump adjacent provocateur and podcaster before he was appointed to this position. And we should say straight out of the box, Kash Patel has less law enforcement experience by far than anyone who has ever occupied this job. And there was internal dissension within the Trump camp about appointing him to position. But that aside, very early in this process, he began tweeting and he hasn't really stopped since. The thing that the one tweet I think that is ultimately going to come back to haunt him and has aroused a lot of skepticism in the Justice Department and also in the White House came a few minutes before the first press conference that took place in Utah after The shooting on Wednesday, when Patel said, quote, there was a subject that the FBI and local authorities had arrested, indicatingand he offered all these thank yous to law enforcement. And the very clear suggestion was that this was the shooter. Well, the press conference took place five minutes after Patel tweeted. I have subsequently, through my reporting, learned that Patel tweeted that himself and did not vet that with his professional staff. Five minutes later, the governor and the head of the state police pushed back on that. And within a couple of hours, Patel tweeted out that that suspect, who turned out had no connection to this whatsoever, had been released. So the bottom line is we have had an FBI leadership. And I should say that Patel and his top deputy, Dan Bongino, another podcaster, flew out there to personally supervise last night, and that they have, I think, and the federal government in general has put forth this notion that they were playing a very robust part in this investigation. And ultimately, what happened was what often happens, the suspect talked a lot, communicated, and ultimately a tip to local authorities led to his arrest. This is the way that things normally happen. The FBI had agents on the ground. There's a lot of federal agents, atf, et cetera, that have been helpful in this investigation, canvassing, offering intelligence. But the bottom line is the thing that makes this different is the feds, from Donald Trump to Kash Patel on down have taken, have sort of stood in the middle of the spotlight on this investigation in a way that we have not seen in crimes like this in the past. And that's really what has made this so extraordinary. The expectations that they raised themselves, that the feds would be at the center of this, when in fact, it appears that the resolution and arrest were the result of local law enforcement activities.
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Nicole Wallace
So let's shine the light back on the local law enforcement folks. Michael, this is the Department of Public Safety Commissioner, Bo Mason.
- [11:12]
Michael Feinberg
We've seen a threat environment that has exploded over the last year.
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Glenn Thrush
We're on track to.
- [11:19]
Nicole Wallace
Sorry, here he is. Oh, do we have this from Bo Mason, or do you want me to read it so I'll read his statement? Quote, I think our investigation pushing those pictures out was very pertinent to the investigation, for one, but I think it also puts pressure on the individual to know they're going to get recognized. And what his mindset was, why he turned himself in, I don't know, but I think our investigative process and the process we use through that, I think it aids in that. Just say a little bit more, Michael, if you will, on Glenn's reporting and Point that it is often the case that someone talks and they talk to family and friends, and that is how an alleged killer is apprehended by law enforcement.
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Michael Feinberg
That is very often the case. And that's true across a whole wide variety of crimes. One of the most famous spy investigations of the 80s was a family spy ring where a disgruntled spouse eventually turned in her husband, who was selling Navy secrets. Similarly, some of Robert Hanson's family members reported his odd behavior and that helped lead to his capture. And we've seen it in smaller crimes throughout the country as well. That's not to denigrate the phenomenal investigative work by both the FBI Salt Lake City field office and their local partners throughout Utah. It's just to say that realistically, you know, it's a common saying, I often heard when I was in law enforcement that it's better to be lucky than smart. At the end of the day, you need both. And there was a really good investigation that put forward a lot of information in the public eye, and that probably did increase the pressure on the suspect. And as the suspect's family and friends became aware that he may have been involved in this, that was probably an influencing factor in them trying to turn himself in. And, you know, while we're talking about Glenn's reporting, you know, I just want to really tip my hat to him. Everything that was in his article this morning and everything he said today is exactly the stuff those of us who were in the agency at the time Patel was nominated were discussing and were worried about.
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Nicole Wallace
Well, then let me read more of it, since I have both of you here together in this consequential moment for the country, and perhaps, I think as a public interest matter, it's impossible for the public to see inside this opaque law enforcement agency at the best of times. And I don't think anybody would posit that, that this is. That. This is also from Glenn's reporting. Quote, on Wednesday evening, as word of Mr. Kirk's killing reverberated around the nation, Mr. Patel, a former podcaster, posted welcome but fleeting news on his official X account. Quote, the subject for the horrific shooting today that took the life of Charlie Kirk is now in custody, end quote, he wrote to his 1.8 million followers. Mr. Patel wrote the message after speaking with agents working the case and quickly posted himself without consulting his leadership team, according to two people with knowledge of his actions. It was highly unusual for the director of the FBI, known for its button down messaging and the longstanding reluctance to compromise investigations by freely Sharing information with the public. I guess I want to start with you, Michael, on, you know, we sometimes cover. I won't put Glenn and Ken in this category. I'll put myself in this category. We sometimes ask the question about what norms have been obliterated by the Trump era. And I guess what I would ask is a different question about this. Why does it, why does it jeopardize an ongoing investigation to do something like that?
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Michael Feinberg
There's a couple reasons. The first is, no matter how locked down you can't, you think your case against the ultimate defendant is, you never want to do anything that could prejudice the jury before the trial even begins. You know, and statements by the director of the FBI on social media about somebody in custody being the subject can do that. And there's a related danger. What if the individual in custody early yesterday, who Cash Patel called the subject, had his name leaked, and then it turned out that he wasn't the actual killer? That individual's reputation is going to take some serious hits and they're going to be in potential danger as a result. And as a related point to this, in a lot of Patel's proclamations to the public, he touted his friendship with Mr. Kirk. It is a rock solid norm in the law enforcement world that anybody who has ever had a badge knows. If you have a personal relationship to a victim, that is not an excuse to lean into the investigation. Quite the opposite. It is a reason to recuse yourself. Anytime somebody with a personal relationship to the victim is making major decisions, those decisions are going to be second guessed. And people are going to wonder, were they made because the investigation necessitated it or were they made because of emotional factors of the person involved?
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Nicole Wallace
Well, let me come back to you, Glenn. Then. Was there any reporting, and I honestly don't remember, did Cash Patel and or Dan Bongino travel to Minnesota when the Democratic lawmaker and her husband were murdered and the other Democratic lawmaker and his spouse were shot?
- [17:33]
Glenn Thrush
To the best of my recollection, I could be wrong in this. I don't believe that they did. You know, one of the things I want to do is pull back the curtain a little bit. And Ken can attest to this, too. I've covered a lot of mass shootings. I have unfortunately also covered a fair number of political acts of political violence. And I will tell you, in the course of our reporting, we get leaked or information shared with us on dozens of people, dozens of dead ends and leads of individuals who may or may not be related to a particular crime. And what I think most readers or viewers don't see is we run down those leads as responsibly as we possibly can to make the determination, just as law enforcement, without getting in the way of law enforcement or doing anything that, you know, violates our ethical standards, to figure out what is going on and to report in public an interview, for instance, with an individual who later turns out to have no connection or even an individual. I will throw another element into this. An individual who may have knowledge of something that occurred but perhaps feels intimidated or concerned about being publicly exposed for having this knowledge, but is somebody who possesses valuable information for an investigation to have some sense that that individual is being interviewed is just not according to standard procedure. And here's the thing, and I would pose this to everybody, not just Kash Patel, but Patel in particular. Why tweet if you don't have to? Why not just allow the investigative process to proceed without having this additional element of having a public statement out there that could cause all kinds of harm or, you know, also just create tensions between yourself and local partners? That is a big part of this. You know, what do you think the governor and the state police folks felt when they look on Twitter five minutes before they're about to go out and see something that contradicts what it is that they're about to present? How does that help in terms of coordination, which is really the key here, and that's the role that these federal authorities play is to coordinate and support local authorities. So why go on social media at all until something is decided? That, I think is a fundamental question for all officials.
- [20:18]
Nicole Wallace
I want to pull Ken in on this conversation as well. And I want to read more from your reporting and show you more of what the governor had to say about all this. I have to sneak in a quick break before we do all that. Also ahead from us, there is brand new reporting in the New York Times today about how Secretary of State Marco Rubio is leading the charge on military action in Latin America. We'll tell you about it and later in the broadcast. Signs of economic stress are piling up as prices for groceries and everyday items continue to rise. The Trump administration is trying to shift the blame. Will tell you to where all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [20:56]
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- [21:27]
Nicole Wallace
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- [22:10]
Nicole Wallace
This is our country, this is our fight and we can win.
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Michael Feinberg
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- [22:29]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Glenn, Michael and Ken Kendalini. Let me show you how Governor Cox spoke about sort of the collective, the collective and societal trauma of this event.
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Ken Kendalini
We are not wired as human beings biologically. Historically, we have not evolved in a way that we are capable of processing those types of violent imagery. This is not good for us. It is not good to consume. Social media is a cancer on our society right now. And I would encourage, again, I would encourage people to log off, turn off, touch grass, hug a family member, go out and do good in your community.
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Nicole Wallace
The most sort of profound message I've heard in all of this. Social media is a cancer in our society right now. And I encourage people to log off, turn off, touch grass, hug a family member, go out and do good in your community. What do you think of that?
- [23:33]
Delaney
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I mean, it's just so heartbreaking this particular situation because we were all bombarded with that horrific video on social media. And I know that my own teenage sons saw it before I could even talk to them about this. And I think a lot of people are in that situation. It was unavoidable and it was truly awful. This is not the Zapruder film we're talking about. This is high resolution video. And just to see a life taken like that in an instant was something that, you know, we shouldn't have to consume. And then we go to the question of why, how this shooter became radicalized. And again, we don't know much about this particular suspect and his path to radicalization, but we know a lot about others in recent events and mass shootings and political violence. And they all tend to follow a pattern of alienation and of people marinating in the darkest corners of the Internet and bombarded with really hateful propaganda. And often people have mental health issues. And, you know, this is one where, you know, you can't really point to an assault weapon. This was a bolt action rifle that has never been illegal in the United States. It's a hunting rifle. This is one where we really need to ask ourselves hard questions about what we're doing to find people in this society who are suffering from mental illness or who are prone to violence, who are on the path to radicalization, how we can tackle that problem, because it only seems to be getting worse. Nicole?
- [25:02]
Nicole Wallace
Well, Michael, to Ken's point and Glenn's earlier point about the number of instances of political violence he's covered, here's the Capitol Police chief yesterday speaking about the current threat environment.
- [25:16]
Michael Feinberg
We've seen a threat environment that has exploded over the last year. We're on track to tracking over 14,000 threats by the end of the year. So that environment was present before today, and we're prepared to continue to react and keep the members of Congress safe.
- [25:36]
Nicole Wallace
I don't have to tell you, Yesterday was the 24 year anniversary of September 11th. I worked in the White House on that day. And the image of members coming together when the country was under attack and holding hands and uniting is symbolic of a different kind of threat and a different moment in our politics. But there are a lot of the same human beings, and for better or worse, a lot of them are still there. I wonder if we as human beings have changed or if it's our politics that have changed and if there is a road back.
- [26:12]
Michael Feinberg
You know, one of the bro minds that often gets thrown around after events like this is this is not who we are. And I very much want to believe that. But we have to reconcile with the fact that if we don't change course somehow, this is very much who we are becoming. Political violence is occurring with a degree of regularity that could discomfit any American. Towards the end of my career, for basically the last five years, it was a defining facet of the things I worked, from the insurrection of the Capitol on January 6 to incidents of domestic terrorism that I saw when I was an assistant special agent in charge and an acting special agent in charge to just what I would consume on the nightly news. And our society is sick in this way, but the only way we can cure it is if everybody is willing to diagnose it, not only in their political Opponents, but also on their own side. There is not a condemnation of political violence that I have heard over the past 48 hours that I disagree with. I don't think anyone of conscience can. But there's also a part of me that wishes that chorus was just as vocal after the legislators in Minnesota were shot and some were killed. I wish that it was as vocal as when there was a school shooting the same day as Charlie Kirk was assassinated. We have to condemn all violence. We have to condemn everybody who leverages harm and suffering to score ideological points. This, this should be something we come together at on as a nation, but we also need to look in the mirror and diagnose it, not just when it's the other side, but also when it's our friends.
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Nicole Wallace
Glenn Thresh, do you have any reporting that suggests that that is the mission of the director of the FBI and his deputy?
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Glenn Thrush
I don't know. I mean, they clearly there have been a variety of statements that have come out over the past 36 hours. The president has given some indication that he is not pursuing that particular line of argument, pointing out that there is issues with the. I think he used the term evil on the left. But if I could just add one little personal element, I totally was not able to mark the 24th anniversary of 9 11. I, like so many other reporters, was down there at ground zero and covered that on that day. I clear, you know, it was a horrific day for us. I didn't incur the same risk as the first responders who were just unimaginably heroic. But the one thing I was just reflecting with a colleague in my office, office who I'm working on stories on the Kirk shooting with was the spirit. And the six months, three, four, five, six months after 911 in New York City was just one of the most remarkable experiences of my life. And it's something that I draw upon now, the sense of solidarity, the sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. People on the train just starting to talk to one another about what they had been through and the country came together for a brief moment. So I think while there's a lot to feel pessimistic about this country, does Nicole, as you say, have this enormous positive potential energy that expresses itself at times we least expect it. And it would be very heartening for those of us who have lived through a number of these experiences if we could collectively embrace the this and turn our back on this violence. But I think we are in a certain phase of history and unfortunately, it does not seem as if this polarization and these wounds are going to heal anytime soon.
- [30:33]
Nicole Wallace
I appreciate that note so much. I think it's, I think we are old, right, that we were working on that day. But I had the same thought and I don't want to sugarcoat those moments either. I worked for a very polarizing and unpopular president at that time, but he had a role in it. But it was us. It was the country, it was the people. It was, as you said, fans at baseball games and people on the subway. And people just sort of lingered and looked up a little bit more than they seem to these days. I'm grateful to all of you, not just for today, but for all your reporting and all your contributions. Michael, I think you've been with me every day on this story. You too, Ken. And thank you. We've been using all your reporting all week, Glenn. Thanks to all three of you. Coming up next, new reporting on how Marco Rubio is pushing the Trump administration and the United States into armed intervention in Latin America. We'll bring you that reporting next.
- [31:35]
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Edward Wong
I need a coffee.
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- [32:53]
Nicole Wallace
In the wake of bombshell reporting about a lethal strike by the Trump administration last week that destroyed a suspected Venezuelan drug boat and killed 11 people on board. The New York Times today is out with more new bombshell reporting on how Secretary of State Marco Rubio is moving this administration away from decades of US Foreign policy in Latin America to one that, quote, carries legal and political risks. The New York Times reports that Rubio has, quote, helped steer the Trump administration toward a much more aggressive and deadly tactic, use of military force to destroy suspected drug boats and kill the people on board. Without a legal process regarding that strike on the Venezuelan boat, the New York Times reports that Rubio, quote, has not presented a legal rationale for the lethal strike. He has said only that the vessel posed an imminent threat, even though it appeared to be turning around before it was hit multiple times by the US Military. Joining our coverage, New York Times diplomatic correspondent Edward Wong. He is bylined on that Times reporting. He is the author of the book at the Edge of a Family's Reckoning with China. Also joining our coverage, retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling is here. Ed, take us through what you and your colleagues are reporting.
- [34:12]
Edward Wong
Sure. Thanks a lot for having me on here, Nicole. I've been on two of Secretary Rubiel's trips to Latin America. My colleague Michael has been on another one. So we feel we have a fairly comprehensive view on his take on Latin America. And there's no one in the Trump administration at the senior levels who has had more experience working on Latin American policy than Marco Rubio has. And he has a long history of taking fairly aggressive, fairly hawkish views on different governments in Latin America and in particular those of Cuba and Venezuela. I think he clearly sees this moment when he's acting as both secretary of state as well as national security advisor as an opportunity to really put action towards now. He is pushing the Trump administration for forward military action against what they call cartels, against allies of those cartels, and including hinting that they will take action against governments, particularly that of Nicola Maduro in Venezuela, and going after him to bring him to justice on US Drug charges in New York. So I think that Secretary Rubiel is one of the main engineers behind all this, and we're seeing it all play out in these days and weeks right now across the region.
- [35:37]
Nicole Wallace
Let me read this from your reporting and follow up with you. I quote, the push for military action and the ouster of national leaders could draw criticism from a vocal wing of Trump's movement that advocates greater military restraint in foreign policy. Those conservatives criticize forever wars and regime change, and some already view Rubio with suspicion, pointing to a history of neocon position positions. Where does Rubio, other than, you know, holding multiple positions, as you alluded to, where does he derive support for such risks to be taking with the lives of the men and women of the military? Is that coming from Trump?
- [36:19]
Edward Wong
Well, I think that he and Trump are actually fairly aligned on their views on Latin America. Trump obviously has made several issues related to Latin America, drugs, fentanyl, and especially migration and immigration, central to his political platform and to his movement. And I think that Trump has successfully, within his base, tied all those issues together and said that we need to address these factors in Latin America that are causing large waves of migrants to come to the US and so he's pinning that on the cartels, he's pinning that on leftist governments, he's pinning that on criminal organizations. And so that aligns perfectly, I think, with what Rubio's agenda has been for years. And so they're in sync on this. And because Trump has managed to spin this political rhetoric around immigrants and migration, then a lot of his base is on board with it. But as I said in the story, as you pointed out, there are members of his movement that think that the US Military should not be engaging in prolonged conflicts outside its borders. They point to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which, of course, General Hertling knows well. And I think they might end up being wary of what the US Is getting into here in Latin America.
- [37:43]
Nicole Wallace
General Hertling, what is your sense of how wed to the law these operations and these moves are?
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Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
Well, I mean, we could take it from a bunch of different directions, Nicole. First of all, from a law perspective, Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the authority to declare war. It can't be declared by a secretary of the state or even as a president unless he gets the approval of Congress. So there's a strategic element there. And you know well about that. That's what has happened in the past. But from the standpoint of the tactical or the operational, if you will, that brings the military into this. Military operations are bound by the law of armed conflict. That requires proportionality distinction between combatants and civilians and the accountability when they use force. Very understanding of people that might say, what rights does a drug smuggler have on the wrong end of a.50 caliber or in the wrong end of a missile being shot at a boat? But the fact of the matter is, these are criminals. They do have rights. It's the law of the land, too. Congress must agree to all of this. And the last thing I'd say is some of these orders that are being given I would view as illegal orders. And the military commander on the site has the responsibility to not obey an illegal order. That's just what we've been taught from the very early ages of our serving in the nation.
- [39:22]
Nicole Wallace
I'm going to ask both of you to stick around. I want to press you, Ed, on what you and your colleagues at the Times have seen in terms of evidence that what we're being told we're seeing is what we're seeing. How do we know this was a drug boat with 11 people and drugs on it heading to America? It looks like a lot of people for a boat carrying drugs, and it looks like a small boat to make it all the way to America. I'd like to understand what evidence the administration points to. We're going to sneak in a break. We'll all be right back. We are back with Jemma Hertling and Ed Wong of the New York Times. Let me put the picture up again and tell me if the State Department or the Pentagon or anyone has provided evidence that this is indeed what they say it is, an image of a boat that was going to make it to America with 11 people and drugs on board.
- [40:15]
Delaney
Sure.
- [40:16]
Edward Wong
The agencies in the Trump administration have been very, very reluctant to release the intelligence that they say led them to that conclusion. They say they picked up on conversations among the traffickers. They have some other intelligence, but they haven't released it publicly. They've given some briefings around Washington, including to Congress. And what we've picked up is that we know, for instance, that the boat was turning around at the time when the people in the boat spotted the military aircraft. And so it indicates that there might, there are doubts about this imminent threat phrase that Secretary Rubio and others have been using. One thing that raised questions was the first day of the strike. President Trump said the boat was heading to America. The secretary, on a stop in Florida, told reporters that the boat was going to Trinidad and Tobago, likely, and moving around the Caribbean basin. And then he later changed his story to say, oh, it was eventually going to America. So obviously, there's been these different narratives that the administration has put out there and that are not consistent. But whatever it turns out to be, whether there are drug traffickers on the boat, I think the important question is what General Hertling raised, which is the question of due process and how you come to a legal basis for punishing criminals, if these are criminals and if they had intent to do harm in America. And I think that that's really at the core of this entire episode.
- [41:51]
Nicole Wallace
General Hartling, I think one of the first stories we had the benefit of your wisdom and insights on was the firing of JAG officers inside the military. And I wonder, if you wanted to use the military in this way, would it be easier if you got rid of all the JAG officers.
- [42:09]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
Well, certainly there's still Judge Advocate General officers in the Pentagon, Nicole. Just don't know who they are and what they're doing. But, yeah, all the head jags had been fired early on in the administration. But as a commander, you know, any commander will have their own staff judge advocate along with them. They'll. Our lawyer, and I would ask a question of my lawyer, Ed knows this. He was with us in Iraq on multiple occasions. You say, hey, is the proportionality right? Is this a legal target? Can we strike it without collateral damage? Those are the kind of considerations you have. And the other thing you might ask, is there another way to do this? It's interesting. Early in my career, Nicole, I had a chance to go with the Coast Guard out of Key West, Florida, Florida, as part of Joint Task Force east, the ones that counter the drug running. And what they would do for these go fast boats is they would, because they can't catch them with a Coast Guard cruiser, they would launch an aircraft, a helicopter with a sniper leaning out the side, shoot out the engine, and then go collect the boat and find out exactly what they're doing without the need to kill people. That's the kind of interdiction method the military is very good at. So just to strike a boat without knowing what's in it, even though you might have communications or signals intelligence telling you that there are drug runners in the boat, you still have to use proportionality. Are you going to kill 11 people, some of which might not be drug smugglers, if only one of them is a smuggler and they have some handlers just to move the cargo around, usually in a transfer to a larger boat that goes into the United States or Africa. So the drug trade coming out of South America and Latin America is very complicated. This is a small element of it. And you know, the JTF east folks used to say there are three ways you can hit it. You can hit the cartels inside of the country with the assistance of the government. You can try and interdict the boats or the aircraft or the larger ships that are transferring the drugs. Or the third way is you can try and stop the demand in the United States, which is the most problematic area of the drug trade and the hardest one to address. Just bombing a couple of boats may, you know, may create a stir among the supporters of this action, but it doesn't really do much from an operational perspective to overcome the kinds of things that the President and his staff and the Secretary of Defense are trying to do.
- [44:37]
Nicole Wallace
General Margaret Ling, Ed Wong, thank you both so much for joining us today on this really important story. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. An alarming development to tell you about in Secretary Kennedy's ongoing war against vaccines in America. FDA officials plan to present data they claim links the COVID vaccine to 25 deaths in children at what is expected to be a closely watched vaccine advisory committee next week. From the Washington Post, reporting on this quote, the findings appear to be based on information submitted to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event reporting system, which contains unverified reports of side effects or bad experiences with vaccines submitted by anyone as a fact check. Numerous studies have shown that the COVID shots are safe in children and also reduce the risk of hospitalization and death. Still, any recommendations made during the committee's meeting could influence who was able to get a shot this year. So we'll stay on top of that reporting. Coming up next for us, Donald Trump saying today that troops are soon headed to a third city. This time it is Memphis, Tennessee. We'll bring you that reporting next.