“Spun hard”

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Spun hard"

Podcast: Deadline White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace (Nicole), MS NOW
Air Date: December 2, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of Deadline: White House, Nicolle Wallace leads a hard-hitting exploration of mounting crises and controversies rocking the Trump administration. With her guests—including Democratic Rep. Maggie Goodlander, attorney Todd Pomerleux, political strategist Tim Miller, journalist Vaughn Hilliard, and election law expert Mark Elias—Wallace dissects two headline-grabbing stories:

1. The fallout from an allegedly illegal U.S. military strike in the Caribbean, and
2. The expanding scope and lawlessness of the administration's mass deportation program.

The episode also scrutinizes escalating threats against lawmakers, new partisan redistricting gambits, and the precarious state of American democracy under Trump, offering listeners candid analysis, emotional testimony, and a behind-the-scenes look at Washington’s power struggle.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Illegal Military Strike in the Caribbean

Segment: 01:04–15:01

• Context and Allegations

  • Reports have surfaced about a "double tap" boat strike in the Caribbean on September 2, ordered by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, with possible illegal targeting of survivors.
  • Both the White House and Hegseth are distancing themselves, attempting to shift blame to Admiral Frank M. Bradley, the operational commander.
  • Key Quote (Nicole, 01:27):
    "For those people seeking answers over the United States military's possible illegal double tap boat strike in the Caribbean, they're being spun and spun hard this afternoon."

• Legal and Political Fallout

  • Lawmakers from both parties demand transparency—audio, video, and the written execute order—but the administration stonewalls.
  • The Defense Department’s manual explicitly forbids hostilities on the basis of 'no survivors'.
  • Tom Nichols in The Atlantic (paraphrased, cited by Nicole, 01:50):
    “If the admiral actually did give the order on his own, that's little comfort. It would mean Hegseth's Defense Department is even more dysfunctional and out of control than anyone might have guessed.”

• Congressional Oversight and Reaction

  • Rep. Maggie Goodlander, one of six lawmakers in a bipartisan group, argues for thorough oversight and stresses the bipartisan disgust with the obstruction:
    "This has got to be a careful and painstaking bipartisan oversight effort... the law is pretty clear on this point." (Goodlander, 05:28)
  • The group’s video urging military personnel not to follow illegal orders prompted extreme threats, amplified by Trump’s accusations of sedition.
  • Senator Slotkin’s received threats, read aloud (Tim Miller, 08:22):
    “I can eat popcorn while I watch you get executed for treason. God, I'm going to pray for that...I hope you get murdered. I want to see you murdered on TV.”
  • Goodlander on threats:
    "His words have a real impact. And, yes, we've seen an uptick in threats... Ultimately, this really is not about us. This is about a basic, core American constitutional principle." (Goodlander, 09:11)

• Law of War Manual and Lack of Ambiguity

  • Goodlander, a former naval officer, underscores the My Lai-like clarity of illegality:
    "Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal." (Goodlander, 12:40)
  • She calls Hegseth "completely unfit" for his post and demands his resignation.
    "He totally lacked the experience. He lacks the judgment. He proves that he lacks the judgment, and he lacks what it takes to have this extraordinarily important position of public trust..." (Goodlander, 12:40)
  • She offers gratitude and solidarity to service members, reaffirming the principle that no one is above the law.

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2. Deportation Abuse: The Case of Annie Lucia Lopez Villosa

Segment: 19:36–29:01

• The Story

  • 19-year-old college student Annie Lucia Lopez Villosa was deported to Honduras despite a federal judge’s stay of deportation, after being detained while traveling domestically in Boston.
  • Her attorney, Todd Pomerleux, describes her treatment as “beyond the pale.” "A scholarship recipient, 19 year old college student is being treated better, worse than a drug trafficking ex-president Honduras. … She gets ambushed at Logan International Airport, taken away in handcuffs, brought to an ICE facility. … She was disappeared from the database." (Pomerleux, 21:01)

• Legal Violations and Outrage

  • The administration flagrantly ignored judicial orders, violating the rule of law.
  • Pomerleux vows to pursue the case to its conclusion:
    "We have a federal judge signing an order at 6:08pm... saying you must bring her to court. You can't deport her... She never received that. We're going to make sure she gets her day in court." (Pomerleux, 22:02)
  • Tim Miller expands on the threefold problem: human cruelty, political unpopularity, and rule-of-law abandonment. "It's crazy. It's inhumane. … The administration, you can see their numbers continue to go down on immigration because of stories like this." (Miller, 24:03)

• Rule of Law Undermined

  • Ignores precedent; contempt charges likely. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse. … They should know that they have to follow an order from a federal judge and that was disrespected. It's unconscionable, it's unconstitutional, and we're taking a stand for Annie’s dream." (Pomerleux, 26:02)

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3. Redistricting, Threats, and the State of Democracy

Segment: 29:55–40:57

• Indiana Redistricting Gambit

  • Trump and MAGA Republicans pressure Indiana to gerrymander Democrats out of House seats; threats escalate to violence, including pipe bomb threats to reluctant GOP lawmakers.
  • "The pressure on Indiana Republicans has escalated to include threats of violence, with nearly a dozen state lawmakers reporting that they have been the victims of SWAT or doxing attempts..." (Nicole, 29:55)
  • GOP State Senator Michael Boneck, whose daughter has Down syndrome, denounces Trump’s bigotry and rejects redistricting.

• Escalation and Authoritarian Tactics

  • Mark Elias contextualizes the moment:
    “...if they pass an illegal map, they are going to get sued and they are going to lose.” (Elias, 32:05)
  • Elias and Miller warn that political threats have become an overt power lever, a dangerous "new thing" even for MAGA:
    "What they fear is physical violence at the hands of Donald Trump supporters. ... We are able to now warn people in advance that this is where we're headed." (Elias, 33:28)

• Rise in Political Violence

  • Nicole and Miller reflect on a pattern of increasing political violence, now a deliberately wielded tactic rather than random action.
  • "Using it as a political bludgeon is real. And like you said, I think it's a category difference from another huge problem we have..." (Miller, 35:56)
  • Despite security limitations for state legislators, many show courage and resist, but the risk and potential for escalation remain acute.

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4. Special Election in Tennessee: Weakness in the MAGA Brand

Segment: 37:46–40:57

• Unexpected Political Headwinds

  • Republicans forced to spend heavily to defend safe districts due to redistricting backlash and Trump’s unpopularity.

• Analysis

  • "The fact that the Republicans are worried about it, they've had to spend money there ... will tell us a lot about how things are going next year." (Miller, 38:29)
  • Elias: "It speaks not only to how damaged the Republican congressional brand is, but it speaks to how unpopular Donald Trump has become." (Elias, 39:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nicole Wallace [01:27]:
  "For those people seeking answers over the United States military's possible illegal double tap boat strike... they're being spun and spun hard this afternoon."

• Tom Nichols via Nicole [01:50]:
  "If the admiral actually did give the order on his own, that's little comfort. It would mean Hegseth's Defense Department is even more dysfunctional and out of control than anyone might have guessed."

• Rep. Maggie Goodlander [12:40]:
  "Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal ... He is unfit to serve in this role... He should resign immediately, and the president should replace him with someone who is qualified to do this job."

• Senator Alyssa Slotkin’s death threats (read by Tim Miller) [08:22]:
  “I can eat popcorn while I watch you get executed for treason. God, I'm going to pray for that...I hope you get murdered. I want to see you murdered on TV.”

• Todd Pomerleux on deportation [21:01]:
  "A scholarship recipient, 19-year-old college student is being treated ... worse than a drug trafficking ex-president Honduras. ... She was disappeared from the database."

• Tim Miller on the politics of deportation [24:03]:
  “It's crazy. It's inhumane...It's something that's extremely unpopular...Democrats should run against the administration on this.”

• Mark Elias on GOP legislative fear [33:28]:
  “I've actually talked now to enough Democratic members...who told me that no, actually what they fear is physical violence at the hands of Donald Trump supporters.”

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Important Timestamps

• 01:04–17:28: All aspects of the military strike discussion, legal and political ramifications, and political threats aftermath.
• 19:36–29:11: Attorney Todd Pomerleux discusses the case of Annie Lucia Lopez Villosa and the dangerous expansion of ICE tactics.
• 29:55–40:57: Indiana redistricting saga, physical threats, the weakening MAGA brand, and the implications of close races in deep-red districts.

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Tone and Atmosphere

The tone of the episode is urgent, candid, sometimes emotional, and unwaveringly critical of the Trump administration's disregard for law, ethics, and constitutional democracy. The dialogue moves seamlessly between in-depth legal analysis, personal testimony, pointed political commentary, and expressions of bipartisan alarm. Experts and lawmakers speak in plain language, foregrounding principle over politics and, at times, displaying personal vulnerability alongside their calls for accountability.

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Conclusion

"Spun Hard" offers a gripping look at a White House mired in legal peril and political crisis, where efforts to dodge accountability—whether for alleged war crimes or trampling of immigrant rights—collide with mounting bipartisan resistance and a public increasingly repulsed by dangerous extremism. Wallace and her guests leave listeners with a sense of both outrage and resolve, underscoring the stakes for American democracy at a pivotal moment.

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Transcript

[Todd Pomerleux]

Deadline White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

[Nicole]

Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki and more Voices you know and trust. Ms. NOW is your source for news, opinion and the world. Our name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress and the truth that you've relied on for decades. We'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions and explain how it impacts you. Ms. Now. Same mission, new name. Learn more at Ms. Now.

[Tim Miller]

We do know from Pete Hegseth's own words he said he was there, he was watching it live. So that means he is the senior most member of a team who is in the operational chain of command. He's responsible. And I find it really disturbing that a guy who leads the Department of Defense immediately, immediately starts to blame others.

[Nicole]

Hi again everyone. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. For those people seeking answers over the United States military's possible illegal double tap boat strike in the Caribbean, they're being spun and spun hard this afternoon. The strike reportedly ordered by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is not something that as of this afternoon, Pete Hegseth is interested in taking complete responsibility for. Both the White House and Pete Hegseth are attempting to distance themselves from the September 2 strikes by claiming that it was actually Admiral Frank M. Bradley who ordered the initial strike and the second follow up strike. Hegseth posting last night that he, quote, stands by Admiral Bradley and the combat decisions he Admiral Bradley has made on the September 2nd mission and all others since. Even though I was watching a live feed, even though I went on TV and bragged about all aspects of the operation, I'm not taking any responsibility for the things that happen during said operation. But his friend of this program, Tom Nichols, points out in the Atlantic, quote, bradley is an experienced officer who by virtue of his rank and position would be intimately familiar with the laws of armed conflict. He would have to know that such an order is likely a war crime and any senior officer would want civilian leadership to sign off on an order with such potentially immense consequences, especially on the first such operation. Nichols adds this quote, if the admiral actually did give the order on his own, that's little comfort. It would mean Hegseth's Defense Department is even more dysfunctional and out of control than anyone might have guessed. What Pete Hegseth and the Trump administration's blame game does not dispute is the fact, the fact of that second strike and the facts are so alarming that lawmakers from both parties are today demanding answers.

[Mark Elias]

Were there survivors who were killed in that second attack? I don't have that information, do you worry? But I do.

[Todd Pomerleux]

I do think we'll get that information, and we're certainly going to.

[Mark Elias]

We're going to have available to us.

[Todd Pomerleux]

All of the audio and all of the video. And at that point, I'll be able to have a more informed conversation with the press. Do you want to be a war crime? If the survivors were killed, we're going to find out what the true facts are, and then there'll be a determination.

[Mark Elias]

Find out what happened when and.

[Nicole]

You.

[Mark Elias]

Know, what orders were given. I think all the, all the particulars, you want to know what the facts.

[Nicole]

Are, and then you want to compare that with the relevant and figure out.

[Mark Elias]

You know, procedurally, you know, what's the, you know, the correct, lawful way to do things and determine whether or not.

[Todd Pomerleux]

That everything was followed by.

[Nicole]

Now, despite the bipartisan demand for answers and facts, along with the audio and video for their investigation into the matter, as the Bulwark reports today, quote, the Trump administration has refused to provide Congress with Hegseth's written execute order to engage the boat with lethal force, nor the videotape, nor anything much else. Nor has the administration even attempted to explain how the military action and Hegset's orders are consistent with the Defense Department's Law of War manual, which says that it is, quote, prohibited to conduct hostilities on the basis that there shall be no survivors, end quote. That is where we start the hour with one of the six lawmakers who called for members of the military not to obey unlawful orders. Democratic Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander of New Hampshire. Congresswoman, thank you for being here.

[Maggie Goodlander]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Nicole]

Nicole, had you heard any rumors about this strike and, or the second strike before you made the video telling the men and women of our military not to obey an illegal order?

[Maggie Goodlander]

You know, Nicole, this has been a source of bipartisan frustration for the last several months now that the administration has really stonewalled Congress week after week. But, you know, there was public reporting about the September 2nd strike, and we are committed on a bipartisan basis to get to the bottom of all of the facts. And as you point out, the law is pretty clear on this point. But this isthis has got to be a careful and painstaking bipartisan oversight effort. And that's, that's something that I'm deeply committed to.

[Nicole]

There had been public reporting about the strike. There was the high level resignation. But until the Washington Post reported about Hegseth's role in the second strike and the existence of two survivors on a boat carrying 11 people, which is seemingly inconsistent with the kind of boat that runs traffic Struggs, it hadn't really burst into full view. But the six of you make the video before the Post reporting. And I'm just wondering if you'd heard any concerns, concerns or any rumors about that second strike before making the video.

[Maggie Goodlander]

Well, look, there has been longstanding concerns about the legal basis for the administration's military actions in the Caribbean and across the Pacific. Now, this has been a subject of intense interest and oversight. And so this is all in the public domain, Nicole. And I think, look, it's on two levels of deep concern. It's about the legal basis of these operations and basic questions about what the objectives are and what the legal sources of authority are for this administration. And it's also about the legality of these particular strikes. And this is going to take a careful bipartisan oversight effort. And with respect to the video and what we've said, look, we restated a really important principle of law. We, the six of us, love this country. We believe deeply in our Constitution, and we believe deeply in the idea that no one is above the law. That is the most American idea I know of.

[Nicole]

The response to the video that the six of you made was nonsensical, even for Donald Trump to accuse all of you of seditious conduct until the Post story came out. And I just want to play some of something that Senator Slotkin released today. And it's the threats that she's getting as a result, not just of the video, but of Donald Trump's response to the video you all made.

[Tim Miller]

I can eat popcorn while I watch you get executed for treason. God, I'm going to pray for that. Yeah, TikTok, I hope you get murdered. I want to see you murdered on tv. But I do pray that you die.

[Nicole]

Today along with everybody in your family.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I love to see you hanging from a tree, bleeding out so I.

[Nicole]

Could piss on your grave. Now, it's a tricky thing to amplify such heinous messages, but Senator Slotkin released those, and I think she did so so that people would understand the threat that you all are under now because of Donald Trump's accusations against you. Do you feel safe?

[Maggie Goodlander]

You know, Nicole, when the President of the United States speaks, he's the most powerful person in the world. And the American people listen. People listen. And his words have a real impact. And, yes, we've seen an uptick in threats. You know, our office was threatened with a bomb attempt. Local law enforcement, law enforcement at every level stepped up. And I'm truly grateful for everyone who has been a part of keeping us all safe. But ultimately, this really is not about us. This is about a basic, core American constitutional principle. And none of us, I'm certainly not going to be intimidated or harassed out of doing my job. I came to Congress to deliver for the state of New Hampshire, and that's what I'm going to keep doing every day. And I will never give up the ship. And I think it's true of all of us. We are constitutionally unwilling and unable to give up the ship.

[Nicole]

Constitution. The Constitution, as well as your personal history. You're a former naval officer. And I learned something yesterday in our coverage that it is in the actual Law of War Manual, the actual example of inhumane and illegal conduct is what allegedly happened or what we know happened because it's recorded, it's on tape. There were 11 people watching the live feed, including Pete Hegseth, according to Pete Hegseth. And I wonder if you can just explain the lack of debate or fuzziness around the act, the act of striking shipwreck survivors, and explain why that is the example in the military's own Law of War manual.

[Maggie Goodlander]

Look, you know, the manual is incredibly important to our military today, and it's incredibly important to who we are as Americans. You know, we pioneered this field of the law of War, and it's a triumph of, I think, Justice Robert Jackson, who was the chief prosecutor at Nuremberg and who was a Supreme Court justice and attorney general. He said it's one of the great examples of reason triumphing in the face of power. This is who we are as Americans. And when you take a look at that section of the Law of War manual, it really explains that this is boththere's a humanitarian basis for this basic rule, and there are military reasons for this basic rule.

[Tim Miller]

And.

[Maggie Goodlander]

It is a. It is a clear principle of law. Now, our role in Congress, on a bipartisan basis in the House and Senate Armed Services Committee, is to get to the bottom of the facts and to make sure that the American people understand the facts, too. So I believe deeply that we should have public hearings on this issue and that we and Congress should get all of the information it needs to do our job. And that's ultimately what we're all trying to do.

[Nicole]

The White House press secretary yesterday from the White House briefing room, clearly and publicly shifted the blame to Admiral Bradley. Pete Hegseth followed up with some social media posts doing the same thing. Would Admiral Bradley be aware of this line in the manual? Quote, for example, orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal.

[Maggie Goodlander]

Look, I just want to say I'm in the House of Representatives. I didn't have a vote on Pete Hegseth. But when you. Just before he was even nominated, you take a look at his record. He totally lacked the experience. He lacks the judgment. He proves that he lacks the judgment, and he lacks what it takes to have this extraordinarily important position of public trust, one of the most important jobs in the world, literally. He's demonstrated from before the beginning of his tenure that he. He is unfit to serve in this role. You know, leadership really does start at the top. And we've seen him time after time, be in complete dereliction of his basic duties. You know, he's appeared once before the House Armed Services Committee to present his budget. He hadn't submitted the budget before that hearing. In that hearing, Nicole, I asked him a simple question that has one answer. My question was, will you abide by decisions of the United States Supreme Court? He refused to commit to doing so. This is not who this country needs and deserves. The American people deserve better. He's completely unfit for this role. He should resign immediately, and the president should replace him with someone who is qualified to do this job.

[Nicole]

What is your message, though, to the men and women of the military, who he clearly is shifting the blame to for something he took credit for the morning after the strike?

[Maggie Goodlander]

My message is that we are the luckiest nation on earth because we have people who step up, put their lives on the line every day to keep all of us safe. And my message is one of deep gratitude and respect for each and every one of our service members. My message is also that we've each taken an oath, and that's part of who we are as Americans. It's part of how we. We keep this experiment, which is such a fragile one, moving onward towards a more perfect union. And my message is one of solidarity and of support to our men and women in uniform who are working in very, very difficult circumstances right Now, Congresswoman.

[Nicole]

Maggie Goodlander, please stay safe. Thank you for joining us tonight.

[Maggie Goodlander]

Thanks, Nicole.

[Nicole]

I want to bring back into the conversation senior White House correspondent Vaughn Hilliard. Vaughn, the effort to shift blame to Admiral Bradley, who was one of the first to deploy to Afghanistan, is someone who' swho before this news cycle seems to have had a sterling career, is I hate using this word when we're talking about the Trump administration, but it's shocking even by their standards. What is the effort like behind the scenes and how excited is everyone about Pete Hegseth throwing Admiral Bradley under the bus?

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Vaughn Hilliard]

There was also kind of an interesting walk back, though, last night in a social media post. Hegseth then came out, Nicole, and said that he was 100% behind the admiral's decision. And then again today, where was the placement of Pete Hegseth during that cabinet meeting here this afternoon in the West Wing? It was right alongside President Trump. Both men understand that these career military service members like the admiral who was asked to lead this mission here, we're Talking about now 21 strikes on alleged drug cartel boats that have killed more than 80. There is an understanding that Republicans like Roger Wicker are requesting video and audio and all relevant information related that the admiral and others will have about the ultimate execution of these attacks and of these strikes. And so I think that that is where today it was notable that, number one, Donald Trump said that he believed Pete Hegseth was doing a great job and that Pete Hegseth, defending his own self seemingly in that moment, said that it was Donald Trump, well, seated literally one foot away from him, saying Donald Trump had told the military to, quote, take the gloves off. And that this was a moment is echoed from his remarks at the Pentagon one month ago when he said that the time of unbearable rules of engagement should be lifted, that he is doing this as a means of protecting the US national security. And that even if that means treating them like members of Al Qaeda or isis, that's exactly what he's going to do. He's going to move forward with these lethal strikes. And the president, president himself, again sitting next to his secretary of defense, said that they're going to go even beyond international waters and begin these strikes on land.

[Nicole]

I'm not sure sitting next to a sleeping president with a 36% approval rating is the flex Pete Hegseth thinks it is, but okay, I just want to let this be the last word for now. This is from the Post story. Quote, a missile screamed off the Trinidad coast, striking the vessel and igniting a blaze from bow to stern for minutes. Commanders watched the boat burning on a live drone feed for minutes. As the smoke cleared, there was a jolt. Two survivors were clinging to the smoldering wreck. Those are facts that are not in dispute even from this White House, which is just an extraordinary place that we find ourselves. Von Hilliard, thank you. To be continued, I'm sure. When we come back, so much for Donald Trump's promise to have his mass deportation campaign target the, quote, worst of the worst. The stunning case of a college student detained at the Boston airport and then deported to Honduras. Her only crime, if you will, trying to visit her mom and dad in Texas for Thanksgiving. Her attorney is our next guest. Also ahead, how a cool and crass comment from Donald Trump may actually blow back on him and prevent another red state from eliminating Democratic House seats in Congress. And why a special election race tonight in ruby red Tennessee is too close for Republican comfort. And what that closeness says about the weakness of the Republican maga Trump Brand Deslin Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. What made you confident that you could do something that hadn't been done before? I have no fear of failure.

[Maggie Goodlander]

Trailblazing women, changing the game. One of my favorite pieces of advice, think about what your boss's boss needs.

[Nicole]

Leadership can look in many, many different forms.

[Maggie Goodlander]

It really does come down to just trusting yourself.

[Nicole]

Life is short and you just gotta think big to accomplish big things.

[Maggie Goodlander]

Julia Boorstin hosts CNBC Changemakers and Power Players. New episodes every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcast.

[Nicole]

An alarming new sign that the lawlessness of Donald Trump's Mass deportation campaign may be expanding after a college student was deported despite a deportation stay from a federal judge. Amy Lucia Lopez Villosa, a freshman at Babson College outside of Boston, was on her way to board a plane back to Texas to see her parents and two little sisters for Thanksgiving break when she was stopped by immigration agents, handcuffed and placed in an unmarked vehicle. Two days later, she was in Honduras, a country she hadn't been to since she was seven years old. The Austrian American Statesman reports this quote. Within a day of learning of Lopez Baloza's detention, her lawyer, Todd Pomerleux, secured a deportation stay from a federal judge through a habeas petition arguing his client's rights were violated. A Massachusetts judge signed off on her stay at 6:10pm on Friday, November 21, according to a copy of the order reviewed by the Statesman. Her lawyer said Lopez Baloza's arrest is the first he has worked on where A client was detained while flying domestically, signaling what he believes to be an expansion of ICE arrests at airports. I want to bring in Todd Pomerlow. He is the attorney for Aini Lucia Lopez Villosa. Tim is with us as well. Todd, tell us, first of all, tell us how your client is doing and where she is.

[Todd Pomerleux]

Well, she's currently in Honduras. She's with her grandparents, who she hasn't seen in many years. So that's only the silver lining here, unfortunately. A scholarship recipient, 19 year old college student is being treated better, worse than a drug trafficking ex president Honduras. He's getting a pardon and being taken back. Time, it's just, it's really unpalatable the things you're seeing with a regular basis with this administration. We have Annie, who's living her dream, 19 years old, has a scholarship, is trying to surprise her family home for a trip for Thanksgiving. And then she gets ambushed at Logan International Airport, taken away in handcuffs, brought to an ICE facility. And we were trying to communicate with her for hours on end, never knew where she was and she was disappeared from the database. And when we filed the lawsuit at 6 o' clock at night, we weren't even confident she was in the United States because her dad had thought she'd already been deported. It's a real tragedy.

[Nicole]

What are her prospects for returning and being reunited with her, with her family?

[Todd Pomerleux]

Well, I made a promise to Annie. I said we are not stopping until we get you brought back here because the rule of law has to have meaning in this country. We have a federal judge signing an order at 6.08pm, eight minutes after we sued. And the order says you must bring her to the court. You can't deport her from the country. She's entitled to her day in court. She never received that. We're going to make sure she gets her day in court because there's really no excuse here for violating a court order. It seems that we're seeing it time and time again. People that are seeking asylum are getting arrested. People that are going to green card interviews are getting arrested. And this is the third case we've had in a few months at Logan Airport where people are getting arrested, not only traveling internationally with green cards. This is a college student being arrested with no warning, no warrant, no explanation at all. Her lawyers were ignored yet again by ice. We sent an email asserting her right to counsel. It was ignored. And the federal judge's order was ignored. We can't just sit around and wait for another person to have the rights victimized here. We've had such an outpouring of support from the community. We've had business leaders reaching out to us that went to Babson University. We've had people, Republican, Democrat, anywhere in between reaching out to us, saying, they didn't vote for this. This is wrong. This is so fundamentally un American. To do. And to strip somebody from her family on Thanksgiving, just be thankful that Immigration and Customs Enforcement didn't ruin your holiday like they did to. The Lopez Villosa family is just beyond the pale.

[Nicole]

Tim Miller, let me bring you in on this. This is what she said to the Boston Globe, quote, when she was informed Lopez Veloza said she soon started feeling a panic attack coming. Quote, I was like, let me try to process everything that he's saying because he just said I was going to be deported. I couldn't even breathe. I've worked so hard to be able to be at Babson. My first semester. That was my Dre quote, I'm losing everything. She was the first person in her family to go to college. Not anywhere close to the kinds of people Donald Trump campaigned on or talked about deporting.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I mean, Nicole, this is bad on three different levels, right? I mean, there's just the human level. You just feel horrible for her. This idea that she has come to. She was brought to America. She didn't. She didn't knowingly break any laws. She was 7 or 8. And she gets brought to America, has followed the rules since then, is going to college, is doing what she's supposed to do. The idea that she gets handcuffed and detained and sent back to a country that she doesn't know anything about, it's crazy. It's inhumane. It's something that. And next to the political level, it's something that's extremely unpopular. I mean, the DREAM act has not passed in D.C. because of cowardly politicians in Washington, mostly Republicans, but some in both parties over the past 10 or 20 years. But polls always show that people don't want deportation for those who are brought here as kids and follow the rules. It's not popular. It's bad politics. Democrats should run against the administration on this. And the administration, you can see their numbers continue to go down on immigration because of stories like this. And then the third element is just this rule of law element, which the story is reminiscent somewhat of that first plane that went to the El Salvador prison after the judge said, put a stop on those deportations of those Venezuelans to the El Salvador prison. And you had Kristi Noem come out I believe it was this past weekend, basically saying that it was her call. So you have the Department of Homeland Security admitting essentially on the record that they don't care about these judicial rulings and that they will go over the heads of judges and do what they want to do these deportations. And that is an assault on the rule of law. And it's something that I hope there's accountability for should we ever get through this.

[Nicole]

Todd, what is the next legal step? If you have a judge that was willing to stop her deportation and she was deported anyway, how do you unring that?

[Todd Pomerleux]

The next step is to go back to the federal judge. I can't imagine that a federal judge is going to take too kindly to an order. Court order is like the rule of law. The judge has spoken. The judge said bring her to court, bring the body to court, because she is challenging the legality of her detention. This is like two people arguing over who gets to eat a piece of cake and then one person eats all the cake. They've effectively deported her from the country before she had a day in court. And I'm not letting it stand. We, we have plenty of legal skill here to go to court and raise this battle that she deserves because she is entitled to her day in court. She's going to get her day in court. I mean, the plane flew to Honduras. It also flew back to America. They should put her on the next plane back here and do the right thing. But if they want, we're going to ask the judge to order them to be found in contempt of court, because that's what this is. This is contemptuous behavior. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. They tell that to you when you get pulled over, going 10 miles over the speed limit or committing a crime. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. And violating a court order is no excuse. They can't read an email or acknowledge a phone call from a lawyer. They should know that they have to follow an order from a federal judge and that was disrespected. It's unconscionable, it's unconstitutional, and we're taking a stand for any stream.

[Nicole]

I mean, Tim, to your point, not only is the immigration policy and conduct of the Trump administration underwater in the polls, many more Americans disapprove of it than are enthusiastic about what they're seeing. But even more unpopular is ignoring or defying an order from a judge. And to your point, Kristi Noem seemed to you betcha that fact. What is wrong with them?

[Tim Miller]

They think that they have a mandate on this issue. That would be how I would psychoanalyze them is they believe that they have a mandate on the issue of immigration and so they don't have to follow the law. That's not how things work in a constitutional democracy. They don't care about that. I think that in part this is driven by ideological elements within the administration, particularly Stephen Miller. I think that if you have somebody like Kristi Noem, you think that being as hardline as possible in immigration is how you become successful in the future in this party, if you believe you have a future in this party. I think she believes she does. I'm not quite as confident in running for higher office. And so I think that they're going to continue to push this to the limit. And we're really kind of just at the start of this because of the amount of funding that they have put into DHS and ICE and cbd, you know, they're eventually, they've already basically run out. I mean, not of every single criminal that is in this country illegally. But, you know, you can see that the lowest hanging fruit they're struggling to grab, you know, has already been picked. And so now you're gonna see more stories like this one because they feel like they need to do something to satisfy their base.

[Nicole]

Maybe they could leave the dreamers alone and go after child sex traffickers. Todd Pomerlow, thank you for joining us. Please come back with any updates.

[Todd Pomerleux]

I appreciate you having us. Thank you so much.

[Nicole]

Thank you so much. Tim sticks around for the hour. When we come back, Perhaps sensing his own political weakness, Donald Trump has urged Republicans in Indiana to redraw their congressional maps to eliminate Democratic seats. But that plan may be undone by Donald Trump's own cruelty. We'll explain next.

[Todd Pomerleux]

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[Mark Elias]

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[Nicole]

The mid decade redistricting palooza from Donald Trump and MAGA Republicans has reached a critical point this week in Indiana. Despite months of primary threats from Donald Trump, multiple visits from JD Vance and a special legislative session by the state Republican governor Mike Braun, a handful of Indiana Republican lawmakers have resisted, basically refused to do Trump's bidding. But now Indiana Republicans making another push, unveiling a new congressional map aimed at eliminating all of the state's Democratic seats, flipping the state's congressional map from a Republican Advantage of 7 to 2 to 9 to 0. Clean sweep. The pressure on Indiana Republicans has escalated to include threats of violence, with nearly a dozen state lawmakers reporting that they have been the victims of SWAT or doxing attempts or efforts. Republican State Senator Jean Lysing, who has opposed Trump's redistricting effort, says she was the target of a pipe bomb threat, but added, this quote, this threat will not stop me from serving my community to the best of my ability. As legislators in the Indiana General assembly, we must do what is right for our constituents. Senator Michael Boneck. Boneck is another Indiana Republican who has resisted this redistricting ploy. But for him, it got more personal after Donald Trump used a slur for people with intellectual disabilities to describe Minnesota's Governor Tim Walz. He, who has a daughter with down syndrome, responded this way, quote, this is not the first time our president has used these insulting and derogatory references. And his choices of words have consequences. I will be voting no on redistricting. Perhaps he can use the next 10 months to convince voters that his policies and behavior deserve a congressional majority. Wow. I want to bring in democracy. Docket founder Mark Elias. Tim is with us as well. Karma is a, you know what, but it usually when we're talking about Trump takes, you know, like a hundred year cycle to come around. What are you seeing? Mark Elias?

[Mark Elias]

I'm saying that bit by bit, Donald Trump is ratcheting up the pressure to try to force Republicans to do his bidding, to try to rig the 2026 elections. And we have seen this before. We have seen him ratchet up pressure on Republican state officials. We've seen him ratchet up pressure on Republicans in Congress. And more often than not, Nicole, they buckle. So, you know, I'm hopeful that Indiana Republicans will stand up to him. But I'm also realistic about it. And my message to them is that if they pass an illegal map, they are going to get sued and they are going to lose.

[Nicole]

I mean, Mark, let me just press you on the broader political moment. So Trump is at 36% and falling. The elections one month ago were a clear repudiation, rejection of Donald Trump and Republicans who have acquiesced to everything he wants him to do, even though all those things are very unpopular politically. As Tim pointed out in the last conversation. He's underwater on every question that you ask voters. And you have Marjorie Taylor Greene, who said what used to be the quiet part out loud, that she knows that if she were to stay in Congress, Republicans would lose, Donald Trump would be impeached, and she'd be asked to defend the indefensible. How successful could even their, their wildest redistricting fantasies be in this worsening political climate.

[Mark Elias]

So it's getting harder and harder for them, for sure. You know, I used to think that the reason why Republicans fell in line was they were afraid of losing their primaries. I've actually talked now to enough Democratic members of the House and Senate who have told me that no, actually what they fear is physical violence at the hands of Donald Trump supporters. So everyone should just digest and live with that for a moment that these are elected officials who, who are fearing physical safety if they do things like not illegally gerrymander their states in the middle of the cycle, but as Donald Trump's poll numbers fall, as he becomes less popular, as they have more close, you know, close scares or actual scares, we're just going to see his tactics get more and more authoritarian, worse and worse. For democracy. That means more extreme forms of gerrymandering. It means more extreme forms of voter suppression. It means election subversion. It means frivolous lawsuits. And as we saw after the 2020 election, it ultimately led to violence that he instigated around certification. So, you know, we are on this path that we are able to now warn people in advance that this is where we're headed. The more unpopular Donald Trump is, the more extreme his behavior will be and the more extreme his supporters behavior will be.

[Nicole]

Tim Miller, earlier in this hour, I played the threats that Senator Alyssa Slotkin released that she's received since making this video telling men and women of the military not to obey an illegal order. Your colleague Sam Stein tweeted this quote. A remarkable thing is happening right now in Indiana in which threats of physical violence are very much being deployed in overt fashion to achieve redistricting. And if it works, the three of us have been on the air covering heinous acts of political violence against Speaker Pelosi's husband, Paul Pelosi. The assassination of Charlie Kirk, the attempts on Donald Trump's life, the attacks after the 2020 election, the shootings in New Mexico. I mean, the litany of acts of political violence is longer than it should be. But this threat as a public tool for getting what he wants, that does feel like a new thing to be out in the open, even for maga. Do you think it will work as a public threat?

[Tim Miller]

I hope it doesn't work. I don't. You know, I think we're going to see. It's unfortunate. Look, state legislators, you know, it's not like, you know, Congress people even have huge security teams or whatever, but state legislators don't have the resources These are, they're legitimate reasons to be afraid. Obviously, we saw the death of the state legislator in Minnesota, the guy that came to her house. And this is different. You don't have Secret Service. Right. And so I think that this threat is real. I think using it as a political bludgeon is real. And like you said, I think it's a category difference from another huge problem we have in our country, which is crazy person gets radicalized and has easy access to firearms and goes after a politician. We've seen a lot of that and that's bad. And we should be looking at ways to address it. But like this, like using it as a way to bully and coerce is a category difference. I'm hoping that those in Indiana, these, these few Republicans who have shown courage can, will continue to do so. And I think that you'll, if it doesn't work, you will see an escalation of this, in part because they're getting desperate. I mean, the fact that this much pressure is being put on Indiana over two seats like, shows how desperate they are. I think the Republicans expected that this gerrymandering gambit in the mid decade was gonna end up netting them 10, 15 seats when you look at Texas, Missouri, Indiana, Florida, et cetera. And it's backfired in a lot of places. Thanks in part to Mark's work, thanks in part to some Republicans that have decided that they don't wanna go down with the ship with Donald Trump. Thanks to Abigail Spanberger winning in Virginia and being elder redistrict Virginia and Gavin Newsom in California. A few things have happened to now make it so that maybe they'll net a couple seats which likely won't be enough if the political environment stays how it does now. And so it's like it' that they're resorting to this over such so few seats.

[Nicole]

Yeah, and I think it was Melissa Hortman and her husband and their golden retriever who were assassinated in their home in Minnesota on the day of the first Snow Kings protest, of all things. Mark Elias and Tim, stick around. We have to fit in a quick break, but we'll all be right back on the other side. We're back with Mark and Tim. Tim, there's a special election tonight in Tennessee and the story about this seat may not be whatever the outcome is, we don't know people are voting right now, but the fact that the Republicans have had to spend as much money as they've had to spend in a plus 20 district. What are your thoughts on this? What Are you watching?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Well, just really quick. This is one of those outrageous gerrymandering examples. So I do want to bring it up. Nashville doesn't have a representative. The Republicans gerrymander Tennessee said Nashville's like a pizza pie where you get a little bit and then it goes 3/4, then it goes out into the rest of the state. And so this is one of those slices. And it's a part that does go through some parts of Nashville that have black voters and a college community. Kamala Harris was campaigning that college community before I interviewed her last week, a week or two ago. And so it's not as if this is rural Tennessee, but it is a seat that has been gerrymandered. So the Democrats shouldn't have a chance. So the fact that the Republicans are worried about it, they've had to spend money there. The Democratic candidate is not exactly even a moderate candidate, for example. It's like the idea that this is a competitive seat I think will tell us a lot about how things are going next year. And what it says is that the Republicans political standing right now is really in bad shape. And I think that it's in particularly bad shape in these off year elections because a lot of the MAGA voters just frankly don't want to turn out for anybody besides Donald Trump.

[Nicole]

Mark, what are you watching for tonight in Tennessee?

[Mark Elias]

So I'll be looking at the margins. I mean, this is not a competitive seat. This is a extreme Republican gerrymander. As Tim said. This is what happens when Republicans carve up cities and create these gerrymanders. And people need to realize this. This was a gerrymander that predated the, this midterm redistricting. So Republicans have been at this for some time now. But I'll be looking at the, that what the margin is because, you know, the fact is that Republicans are spending money there and Republicans are sending in surrogates there. And you know, you have a finite amount of both even at this point in the election cycle. And so every dollar they spend, there won't be a dollar available to them to spend later someplace else. And I think the only thing I'd add to what Tim said is that it speaks not only to how damaged the Republican congressional brand is, but it speaks to how unpopular Donald Trump has become. Because it's not just that his voters, you know, don' in midterm elections, which I agree with Tim, is, is certainly part of the dynamic. But you look at his popularity in polls like the Gallup poll, and it has just fallen dramatically And I think that is kind of an underreported and underappreciated storyline right now in politics is that he is just very unpopular underwater.

[Nicole]

On every question that pollsters can think of to ask the American people, including crime, immigration, the economy, inflation, tariffs and foreign policy. Mark Elias, Tim Miller, thank you both so much for being part of our coverage today. One more break. We'll be right back. This week on the Best People podcast, Emmy award winning actor Claire Danes is my guest. I have loved watching her since her breakthrough role in My so Called Life, her iconic turn as Carrie Matheson in Homeland and the new psychological thriller airing now on Netflix, the Beast In Me, she's also an incredible human being and supermom. Take a listen to what she told me about preparing for her role in Homeland. We were connected with somebody there who organized what we ended up calling spy camp. And we would spend a week at a clubhouse in Georgetown and talk to so many people who were really at the center of this stuff and who had very different, you know, you know, opinions. Sometimes it was a little awkward in like the waiting room because there were very contrasting, you know, conflicting opinions at play. But, you know, so journalists and ambassadors and senators and spooks and policymakers and stuff. You can listen to the entire conversation with Claire Danes by scanning the QR code on your screen or downloading the best people wherever you get your podcasts. You can also watch the full interview on YouTube if you want by scanning the QR code on your screen right now or heading to Ms. Now thebestpeople. And as always, be sure to let me know what you think about what you hear on bluesky or Instagram. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today.

[Mark Elias]

We're grateful as President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda.

[Todd Pomerleux]

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[Nicole]

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

[Todd Pomerleux]

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[Mark Elias]

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