Nicole Wallace (3:27)

Well, first, just to be very clear, Donald to Donald Trump and the president, not only the issue, not dead, it's not a hoax, but we're also just getting started. And so we have an enormous amount of work ahead of us. We've been talking to victims. We've been, of course, meeting with representatives of the survivors. We now, of course, got this book released. And there's a lot more information ahead of us for our committee to actually not just investigate, but to review. And so later this week, we will have a team from the Oversight Committee in New York looking at all of the Epstein estate materials. Because what's really important is that any redactions that are currently in place, like you've obviously shown some redactions already, we have to verify those on the actual documents to make sure that what's not being redacted is somehow pertinent to our investigation or that somehow those that have caused the violence and the rape and the suffering are somehow being protected. And so that is critical not just in the Epstein estate documents, but also in any documents that we get from the Department of Justice. And this just incredible, the amount of lies and the audacity of House Republicans, Mike Johnson, to go around D.C. to get on TV to call this a hoax, to say the letter somehow wasn't written by Donald Trump. I mean, the blatant lies is completely outrageous. And they have to understand. The American public every day understands more and more that this is a White House cover up of a convicted sex trafficking ring that was not just here in this country, but was international. Donald Trump with Jeffrey Epstein's best friend for Jeffrey Epstein for 15 years. There's a picture of Donald Trump on Jeffrey Epstein's desk. Give me a break. There is a cover up going on and we've got to get to the truth.

Chuck Todd (5:17)

Have you heard from any of the victims since the first pieces of Evidence started coming out yesterday.

Nicole Wallace (5:24)

We have. We are in ongoing discussions. And I just. And I want to say something that's really important here. Having met with a lot of victims and there are over a thousand Nicole survivors, victims folks and women that have been raped, sometimes as girls, as minors, that we are, of course, trying to have just very hard conversations with. People need to be aware that most of these women, they not only they want closure, many of them are scared. The men that abuse them, that rape them, are some of the most powerful men at the time in this country and currently. And so these men with enormous resources, with enormous wealth, they are really nervous about sharing that information and going public with names because of the impact to them. And I understand that. We all understand that. And so we're navigating this very carefully, very respectfully, and trying to center them. And we want justice for these victims.

Chuck Todd (6:25)

What does that mean? Are you open to referring criminal cases based on a fresh look at the evidence?

Nicole Wallace (6:31)

I think all options are on the table. And for us to move forward, we have to get access to the full Epstein files and documents that House Democrats forced a subpoena on. And right now, the Department of Justice is unwilling to comply. They send us documents that were already, of course, available to the public. We know there is enormous amounts of material that we should be investigating and assessing right now from the Department of J. They're sitting on Pam Bondi's desk per her own admission. We know that the Attorney General has told the President that he's in the Epstein files multiple times. Yet Donald Trump calls this a hoax. This is not a hoax. This is a serious investigation. And I think Republicans, James Comer, Donald Trump, are beginning to realize that, that those of us on the Oversight Committee, we are moving forward aggressively. There is a new generation of Democrats pushing, not letting go. And we don't care who's implicated, what political party they're in, how powerful they are, how much wealth they are, who they try to intimidate. We're going all the way till we get to the truth.

Chuck Todd (7:43)

Let's talk about the two new pieces of evidence that I think have been seen by the public for the first time. The Wall Street Journal reported on Donald Trump's birthday message. Donald Trump followed with a ridiculous number. I think it was $10 billion defamation lawsuit. Here's the actual card. Donald Trump then claimed it wasn't his signature. The Wall Street Journal seems to be interested in going toe to toe with him, producing signatures that look very much like the signature on that lewd card. What is Your sense of the importance of the Wall Street Journal's reporting and aggressive investigative journalism on this story, I.

Nicole Wallace (8:26)

Actually have to commend the Wall Street Journal. I think you've done some incredible reporting here, really fearless reporting as it relates to this investigation and of course, the birthday book. And honestly, they played a huge role in us getting this information and acquiring this book. And so I do, I do commend that reporting. I'll also say that we should put the pieces together. You know, let's remember that Donald Trump himself has said, he himself has said in the past, reported out that he knew that Jeffrey Epstein liked young women. He has known this. Clearly, Jeffrey Epstein's friends have known this because you see those horrible drawings and other drawings in the book of Jeffrey Epstein handing balloons to young girls and all these other lewd comments. Donald Trump in the note himself said that they share some secret. And so if Donald Trump knows the kind of man that Jeffrey Epstein is, which is, which is a sex trafficker of women and girls, why the hell was he such close friends with him for so long? And why were so many other powerful men all connected to Epstein, all connected to Epstein, also protecting him? And so these are the questions that have to be asked. We have to get all the investigation through, listen to the victims, uplift them. And I hope the public also realizes that we, we have a lot of work ahead of us. We want the bank records, we want all, all of the data that we know the financial institutions have over the money that's gone in and out of these accounts. And so we're going to leave no stone unturned here.

Chuck Todd (9:54)

Have you subpoenaed the banks?

Nicole Wallace (9:56)

We are in the process of working to get all this information, and that is absolutely on the table. And so we're working with Republicans on this. Look, if Republicans don't want to join us in subpoena the banks and all the financial institutions, we're again going to force votes. We are going to continue to try to get Republicans on record and try to force as much information to come out as possible.

Chuck Todd (10:17)

Have you subpoenaed Maureen Comey, who was involved in bringing the case against Epstein and Maxwell?

Nicole Wallace (10:25)

We have a long list of folks we want to talk to, and we're working through that right now. And so I will tell you that there are a lot of, there are a lot of people that we are very interested in speaking with that have a lot of information, and I'll share that. Near the top of that list is Alex Acosta, who, because of our pressure, Republicans finally agreed to get him in front of us for a deposition, which will happen in just over a week.

Chuck Todd (10:53)

At the end of the day. You've talked to enough of the victims. I've had a privilege of interviewing a couple of them. This was about the most violent sort of betrayal of not just women, but women and girls. Are you surprised that it's only Thomas Massie so far on the Republican side aggressively working toward transparency, or are you talking privately to other Republicans?

Nicole Wallace (11:17)

I am. I am talking privately to some other Republicans. But it's honestly, it's sickening. And everyone in this country should be sickened by the fact that these Republicans at this point, party is so morally bankrupt that they are unwilling to even look at investigating which would could be one of the most horrific acts of sexual trafficking. The amount of women and girls and children that were involved in this, the amount of money, the amount of powerful men. Why are they protecting these men? Why are they protecting these predators? And I think it all goes back to the White House. Donald Trump has made it clear that he wants us to go away. He wants us to be a hoax. He wants them to look at the cameras and at reporters and tell them that, no, that that note was not written by Donald Trump or that, no, it's not his signature. And so this all leads back to Donald Trump in the White House. And we've got to ask the question, why? Why, after being so obsessed with releasing these files, is he now trying to bury this entire case and the story of these survivors? And so we're not going to let it go away. And this is a, this is a moment for justice, for truth and for Democrats, I think, also to show the American public that we're on the side of truth and ensuring that there's good oversight in government on this president who is completely corrupt, completely out of control, and clearly is hiding something as it relates to the Epstein case of Just.

Chuck Todd (12:45)

Ask you, Congressman, as you're able to share things that you're uncovering and shed light on them, please continue to come back and talk to us about it. Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you for starting us off. Joining me at the table to continue this conversation. Investigative journalist Vicki Ward is here. Vicki profiled Jeffrey Epstein for vanity fair in 2003, a significant date, as our conversation will reveal. She's been reporting on the story ever since, including in the documentary series and podcast Chasing Ghislaine, which tracked Maxwell's role as Jeffrey Epstein's partner and accomplice. Also joining us, New York Times opinion writer, MSNBC contributor Margay Vicki, talk about what has become public this week. A lot of this you know about from your reporting.

Vicky Ward (13:30)

Yeah. And I find it personally sickening because this birthday book was compiled and given to Jeffrey Epstein in January of 2003. And there's a. There are a lot of, There's a lot of commentary in it, Nicole, about the Vanity Fair profile of Jeffrey Epstein that I was working on at that time. And that date is really significant because early January 2003 is when the editor of Vanity Fair at the time, Graydon Carter, pulled the allegations made by two sisters, Maria and Annie Farmer, from the piece. This was after Jeffrey Epstein had made a visit unexpectedly to the offices of Vanity Fair, which I only heard about from a fact checker. I was having a complicated pregnancy with twins at the time, made even more complicated by the threats that I was getting on a regular basis from Jeffrey Epstein. So I was devastated to hear in early January that the Farmers, we had by this point gone to Jeffrey Epstein and gone to Ghislaine Maxwell. I had gone, having worked with the lawyers and the fact checkers at the magazine, put these allegations to them. So the Farmers were exposed. And then to pull them from the piece at the 11th hour, leaving these two young women hanging out to dry was bad. I then went into labor at 30 weeks, gave birth to a 2 pound baby and a 3 pound baby. Was so worried that Jeffrey Epstein was coming for me because that's what he'd said he would do. He said he would come for my kids.

Chuck Todd (15:15)

What did he say? How did he say that? Did he call you?

Vicky Ward (15:18)

Oh, he called every day, one of the three. He would say things like, I'm going to have a witch doctor place a curse on your unborn children. And that's off the record. I know every doctor in the city. I know where you're giving birth. Let me tell you what's going to happen to your body when you give birth. I mean, really creepy, not okay stuff. So when my babies came dangerously early and they were in the nicu, one of them for two months, we had to ask for extra security at the hospital. At the hospital. And so to then read Leon Black, who I know making jokes about Jeffrey Epstein being a Vanity Fair poster child, to read Alan Dershowitz, who I also know and know well, you know, going to town, joking about Jeffrey Epstein and joking basically about my efforts to profile him, I found it sickening. And I found it also sickening that these guys clearly knew what Jeffrey Epstein was doing to young girls and they thought it was hilarious.

Chuck Todd (16:27)

Well, the farmers are the subject of New York Times reporting by your colleague Mike Baker, and they did go to the police. I think the younger sister testifies against Ghislaine Maxwell in 2019, and her Count is found to be credible enough that she's a witness against Maxwell who's convicted.

Marat Katcha (16:49)

I mean, I think, Vicky, the story you just laid out is so difficult to hear. I can't imagine having lived through it. And as a reporter, also, just knowing the amount of emotional effort that goes into and the labor that goes into those stories, it's extraordinary. But the reason I actually want to ask you this question, if that's okay, Nicole, is just this has been decades now of women who have put their careers, their lives, their bodies on the line so that this does not happen to other women and girls. And yet still we are sitting here with no justice and no answers. And I think, unfortunately, one of the reasons this story resonates with the American people and in a really bipartisan way, is because that's a very familiar story. We have all the sexual harassment allegations against a president who then was reelected. And, and so this is a very common story in the world. And I just wonder, all these years later for you, what do you think justice would actually look like at this point? What does that mean, not just for you, but for the farmers and for the men who have yet to be brought to justice, some of whom maybe in this birthday book, we don't know.

Vicky Ward (18:08)

Right. So I think, Marit, that is why the files have got to be released, because it's the only way that you can get to justice, but also protect the victims. I know that last week on Capitol Hill, there was a call among some of the survivors to say if the government doesn't do its job here, then we're going to put together a list ourselves. But the danger of doing that is it doesn't give them protection from these very powerful men. So that is why, at this point, mentioned now, that the survivors themselves are calling for transparency. That is the only way to get justice and closure here and to ensure it does not happen again.

Chuck Todd (18:55)

Can you both stick around a little longer? I have to sneak in a break, but I have more questions for both of you because I feel like what the Congressman just opened the door to for the very first time is criminal referrals. And you've now got a Democrat and a Republican looking through the evidence and at least according to the ranking member saying you, yeah, we'll make referrals to doj. We'll talk about that on the other side of a short break. Also ahead for us, there's a crisis of confidence in the United States Supreme Court. And as long as the justices continue to bend to Donald Trump on just about every single issue that comes to them, that crisis isn't going away anytime soon. Just as soon as Sotomayor spoke publicly about it today, one day after her blistering dissent and a ruling that paves the way for racial profiling on the streets of LA and beyond. That story's next. And later, how a new kind of Democratic candidate is injecting energy and hope that his party could do something they've dreamed of for a long time now. Turn Texas blue. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Nicole Wallace (20:04)

Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn more@drhorton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing Opportunity Builder.

Chuck Todd (20:36)

I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay, that no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody. If you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.

Nicole Wallace (20:57)

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace Weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

Chuck Todd (21:36)

We're back with Vicki and Mara. So Vicki, one of the most interesting things that I thought the congressman said was that they're going to look at this evidence with fresh eyes and if need be, they will make criminal referrals to the Department of Justice. Having spent decades investigating the story. How much does the sweetheart deal in Florida that Alex Acosta does and then the death of Epstein in jail? Like how much evidence that has never resulted in justice for these girls? Do you think is in there.

Vicky Ward (22:10)

Well, we know. And they, and their attorney said last week on Capitol Hill that, that they have all named names in civil litigation, and that exists, and they have now given the okay for the world to see it. So the answer is, there's a lot in there that we need to understand at beginning, as Robert Garcia said, rightly with Alex Acosta and what happened in that sweetheart deal. I mean, there are other things, Nicole, I will say, that are in the birthday book that I noticed that might not mean anything to anyone else. But they do speak to this Jeffrey Epstein's mystique and his wielding of soft power, as I've called it in the past. And, you know, one of them is that there is a. A letter in there from a guy called Nick Lease. Now, Nick Lease was somebody Jeffrey Epstein told me he denied knowing. But the reason that's significant to me is that Nick Leese's father, Douglas Lees, was an arms dealer. He was an architect of El Yamama, which was the biggest arms deal done in the 1980s. So I was interested to see that Nick Leese was. Was in there under the friends category, because yet again, it raises more questions about this guy, Jeffrey Epstein, the Rolodex of plutocrats around the world, and why ultimately so many people were interested in protecting him and these sick crimes against children.

Chuck Todd (23:57)

I mean, there's so much. There's so much to say about the levels of failure and years of failures, and you just take the. The threats against you while you were pregnant and giving birth and sort of the blast radius of trauma around this and the victimization of women at every level of the story. I wonder what you think the prospects are of actually getting to the bottom of it this time.

Marat Katcha (24:25)

I don't know. I think it depends whether Americans of all political backgrounds continue to want to know the truth. I think that one of the things that has given this story legs, even in this environment, is the fact that so many in Donald Trump's base are deeply upset and motivated by this story. There's something about that that does seem to transcend partisanship, even in this moment. And it's why you heard the congressman say that he is, you know, engaged with Republicans, clearly, who want to take action and are not quite ready to stand up to the president to do so. So, you know, that gives me some hope. I think the thing that depresses me is, God forbid, but how many more Jeffrey Epstein's are out there? We are in a moment when billionaires have more power than ever, when there's less transparency than ever. And when powerful people are able to abuse their power and go unchecked if they have friends, especially friends in this White House.

Chuck Todd (25:32)

And a climate where threats against investigative journalists, that's right to be tolerated. Thank you both for being here on this day. Thank you for sharing everything you shared today. Thank you for being part of this conversation. When we come back, the growing crisis of confidence at the United States Supreme Court with the United States Supreme Court and the new case the court says it will hear that could make or break Donald Trump's signature economic tool. That's next. In the last hour, we learned that the United States Supreme Court has agreed to hear the case over the legality of Donald Trump. Sweeping tariffs. At issue is whether or not Donald Trump can unilaterally impose tariffs without congressional approval under a law reserved for use in times of emergency. There doesn't appear to be one. The conservative supermajority on the Supreme Court has demonstrated, though, over and over and over and over and over again during Donald Trump's second term, that they are all too willing to step in and clear the way of any hurdles for Donald Trump's most controversial and unpopular policies. The latest, the majority ruling with zero explanation to lift a lower court ruling that blocked ICE agents in Los Angeles from prohibition profiling people based on their race. In a blistering dissent, Justice Sonia Sotomayor, the first Latina to sit on the bench of the nation's highest court, took her conservative colleagues to task, writing for the history books, quote, countless people in the Los Angeles area have been grabbed, thrown to the ground and handcuffed simply because of their looks, their accents, and the fact that they make a living by doing manual labor. Today, the court needlessly subjects countless more to these exact same indignities. The implications of this decision reach far beyond the state of California. Here is what Justice Sotomayor warned about in an interview today. The price we pay is whatever is.

Marat Katcha (27:37)

Happening today, as I indicated, it's going to affect a lot of people.

Chuck Todd (27:42)

But. But it affects your future and it.

Marat Katcha (27:45)

Affects the conduct of leaders in the future. Because what we permit today is not.

Chuck Todd (27:53)

Going to be duplicated exactly tomorrow.

Marat Katcha (27:55)

It's going to be something different. It'll be a different group of people. It'll be a different situation.

Chuck Todd (28:01)

But once we've approved it, it sets.

Marat Katcha (28:04)

A precedent that can be in your judgment, because in the end, you're the people affected.

Chuck Todd (28:10)

Right. Really bad.

Nicole Wallace (28:13)

And that's what's at risk is each.

Marat Katcha (28:17)

Time we change precedent, we are changing the contours of a right that people thought they had. And once you take that away, think of how much more is at risk.

Chuck Todd (28:33)

Joining our coverage, former U.S. attorney MSNBC legal analyst Joyce Vance. She's the author of a forthcoming book, Giving Up Is Unforgivable, Emmanuel for Keeping a Democracy. Margay is still with us. Joyce, just take me inside. What happened to even the notion that conservative justices would not be activists? They seem to be active political participants in clearing all the roadblocks for Donald Trump's most controversial policies and politics.

Joyce Vance (29:04)

Right. I think the three of us can all remember the era when Republicans actually argued against liberal Democrats being active activist judges. We still hear that a lot, frankly, from Republicans in Congress who are denigrating liberal activist judges. But increasingly, it's clear that the Supreme Court has an agenda. And although Justice Barrett pushed back earlier this week, saying that it wasn't political, clearly it was ideological. And so we increasingly see the results we're getting, which is that Donald Trump wins in the United States Supreme Court in cases where folks not just like me because, you know, clearly I served in a Democratic administration, even though I made my bones as an appellate lawyer. But folks from across the political spectrum look at what the Supreme Court is doing, and they simply cannot find a rational explanation for the ways that the court is enabling this presidency and Donald Trump's power grab.

Chuck Todd (30:03)

Joyce, the Supreme Court is overturning lower court rulings from judges appointed by George W. Bush, by his father, George H.W. bush, by Reagan. I think we have at least one from a Reagan appointed judge and by Donald Trump. What does that say to you?

Joyce Vance (30:25)

Well, so instinctively I'd like to push back against the notion that we have Reagan judges and Biden judges and Obama judges. But, you know, we have to be honest and say we live in a world where we've been begin to begun to look at federal courts through this political lens, which I think is regrettable and is is unfortunate, but it's the reality that we live in. And so this week in the Fifth Circuit, for instance, we had a split two, one decision with a very conservative judge in the majority ruling against the administration. That case will now go up to the Supreme Court. And increasingly we're seeing the United States Supreme Court looking at some of these cases, the tariffs case case, for instance, where there have been conservative judges in the mix who have said that this administration is going too far in its efforts to exercise power that belongs to other branches of government, notably Congress, which apparently is perfectly happy to let the president exercise their power without any restraint.

Chuck Todd (31:27)

I guess Joyce, the reason I've heard that sensitivity as well. But I think it's an important signal that the judges, federal judges ruling against Donald Trump have no partisan bend. They may or may not have voted for him, but they're making legal judgments almost unanimously against the things that Trump is doing. And every single time the Supreme Court overrules them. I guess what I'm asking you is how radical is the Supreme Court if they're overruling a slew of Republican appointed federal judges?

Joyce Vance (32:02)

Well, I think that's exactly the right point to make here, because it's not like the Supreme Court is pushing back against what some Republicans in Congress have called, you know, an overwrought federal judiciary. Stephen Miller, who has accused judges of staging a judicial coup. These are moderate, longtime conservative judges who are ruling against the administration only to be reversed when those cases go to the Supreme Court. So we have judges from across the spectrum who are looking at this administration's comments, conduct and finding it constitutionally insufficient. And then we have Justice Sotomayor, you know, who in this dissent earlier this week in the case involving roving patrols in Los Angeles, I just have to stop and say it's astonishing that we have a government that runs roving patrols in this, the, you know, streets of one of America's largest cities and that that's our government roving patrols. But Justice Sotomayor sort of forewent the typical sign off the justices use when they dissent, where they write with respect. I dissent. And instead she says, because I cannot stand by while constitutional rights are degraded. Those aren't her exact words, but close enough. I cannot sit by while this is happening, she writes, I dissent. And that, I think, is the message for the times.

Marat Katcha (33:24)

What is.

Chuck Todd (33:27)

I guess, alarming is that there's no instance where the Supreme Court on a policy has ruled against Donald Trump. They, I guess, affirmed that due process is a thing, but they have not ruled against Donald Trump on a single major policy. And what's interesting is they don't seem to mind what I think Justice Sotomayor called the stench of politics. And she said that in her dissent of the Dobstone decision, they seem to embrace it.

Marat Katcha (33:56)

Well. And that's a really important point because I think for those of us who have been yelling from the rooftops for some years now about the importance of protecting institutions, you know, this is a moment where we need to do some self reflection and say to ourselves, you know, institutions alone are not going to save this democracy because it depends on the people within them to do the Right thing. And so much of our democracy really has been dependent on that in ways we didn't even imagine. One of the other disturbing things about the Supreme Court's actions is that when the majority has been in these emergency docket cases, in particular making these decisions that give more leeway to the White House than we would have thought possible, they're often not explaining their decision. And so I do find something else troubling about that in particular. Now, I don't know. You know, I've never, I'm not a lawyer. I haven't argued before the Supreme Court, but I know instinctively as a citizen of a democracy, or at least who grew up in one, that, you know, there's a lack of transparency there. There is a, almost a thumbing of the nose of, well, the American people don't need to know. We don't need to show our work because this is about the exercise of raw power. This is about allowing the President to exercise raw power. This isn't about democracy for them. And that's. That should be extremely disturbing.

Chuck Todd (35:20)

Joyce, just quickly, why are they allowed to do that? I think that's called the shadow docket, right?

Joyce Vance (35:26)

It's their emergency docket. The docket, for instance, that death penalty appeals go up through cases where you truly need a quick decision without full briefing. But Tamara's point, increasingly the Court is using that docket to decide these cases that have complicated substantial of issues, especially ones involving presidential power. And they're doing it without full briefing of the cases, without oral argument, and without a written opinion that lets not only the lower federal courts, but, but us, the American public, understand what they're doing. So Justice Sotomayor has said this week that we as Americans should read every opinion that the court releases. And I think we live in a moment where that's crazy, critically important. This, the shadow docket, however you want to label it, this notion of courts operating without transparency is a poor representation of the founding father's intent for the judicial branch of government.

Chuck Todd (36:23)

Joyce Vance, it's wonderful to see you. Thank you so much for joining us today. When Mara and I return. Democrats in Texas are dreaming big today as a new kind of candidate jumps into the Senate race, fueling hopes that the Democratic Democratic Party can make a comeback in Texas. We'll explain next. A rising star in the Democratic Party is taking on a major new political challenge. Texas State Representative James Talarico has announced that he is running for the United States Senate. No Democrat has won statewide in Texas since 1994. Talarico is hoping to change that. He has gained national attention over his state's redistricting fight, emerging as one of his party's most effective communicators. Even podcaster Joe Rogan encouraged him to run for president because he's a good person. After he appeared on Joe Rogan's podcast, Talarico officially launched his campaign today here as part of his opening campaign message.

Nicole Wallace (37:23)

Billionaires want us looking left and right at each other so that we're not looking up at them. The people at the top work so hard to keep us angry and divided because our unity is a threat to their wealth and their power. They divide us by party, by race, by gender, by religion, so that we don't notice that they're defunding our schools, gutting our health care, and cutting taxes for themselves and their rich friends. It is the oldest strategy in the world. Divide and conquer. But we will not be conquered. We're underdogs in this fight. We're going up against those billionaire mega donors and their puppet politicians. We're going up against a rigged system and we're going up against a lot of money. But I'm a former middle school teacher. I don't scare easily. And Texans don't scare easily.

Chuck Todd (38:33)

Joining our coverage, investigative reporter for the Austin American Statesman, Tony Plahecki is here. Mara is still with us. Tony, the last president to run successfully against division itself was Barack Obama. Talk about James Tallarico's rise in Texas.

Nicole Wallace (38:53)

It's a rise that has been unfolding over a number of years. We go back to 2018 and we see that he turned a Republican district to become a state representative at the age of 29. But if you look more closely at the past several months, that is really when we have seen him explode, frankly, not just on social media, but also.

Joyce Vance (39:17)

Onto the national stage.

Nicole Wallace (39:19)

And of course, even within the past couple of months, he was front and center when Democrats left the state. And that quorum busting effort as Republicans here in Austin began efforts to redraw those congressional district maps, which of course, they successfully were able to do.

Chuck Todd (39:36)

Ultimately, Tony, I think people sometimes fail to appreciate how vibrant. I mean, Democrats are a minority and based on the new maps, almost a super minority. But there was a lot of attention paid and money raised by Beto o' Rourke and his statewide runs. Just talk about what James Talarico is building on in Texas.

Nicole Wallace (40:01)

In many ways, he is building on that. But one of the things that he is also building on is what he says from talking to constituents on the ground here in Texas and across the state is that there is a movement afoot. There's a desire for a movement to reframe the entire political system to make it less nasty and to, for example, become more honest and for politicians to become more so people of integrity. He believes that he can capitalize on that sentiment, that desire, and that it can, in fact, propel him forward here in the state. But as we know, it's going to be an uphill climb, not just in the primary, but of course, in the general election as well.

Chuck Todd (40:48)

You know, Mara, what I think is interesting is he's running. If you listen to that speech and I listen to him on Joe Rogan, I mean, he's almost running as a post partisan politician. And you look at the new polling out this week, I think 60% or close to close to 60% of Americans want an insider. Trump is so bad so far that he's made insiders great again. Now, that doesn't apply to Talarico because he's not an insider, but it's such an indictment of the establishment. And Trump is the establishment now.

Marat Katcha (41:17)

Well, no question. But the other interesting thing about James Talarico is that he has that kind of special optimism and charisma that we also saw from someone like Barack Obama, that we saw sometimes from your old boss, that we also see from Zoran Mumdani. There's a kind of joy to meet this moment, not only the glowering darkness that comes from the White House moment.

Chuck Todd (41:44)

Are you looking at me? Am I glowering?

Nicole Wallace (41:46)

No, no, no, no.

Marat Katcha (41:47)

But I think, oh, my gosh, it's just so dark and it's so heavy. And I think, you know, listen, I mean, not only is that appealing and attractive to lots of Americans and to people, when you watch things on your phone or you watch rallies on tv, it's also the kind of energy that tends to bring new voters to the polls, that tends to build new coalitions, that tends to bring Americans who, you know, maybe were dispirited or disaffected and say, actually, I want to get involved in the political process. And that's how you win elections.

Chuck Todd (42:19)

Exactly. Tony, thank you. We'll stay on this race. It's fascinating. He also, not for nothing, was told by Joe Rogan to run for president because he was actually a good person, I think was the quote. Mara, thank you for spending the whole hour with us. When we come back, Republicans take another step forward in their efforts to rig the 2026 midterm elections. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Back.

Nicole Wallace (42:44)

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week, Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week, she sits down with activist Stacey Abrams.

Marat Katcha (42:57)

My mission is to activate the potential in everyone else. This is our country, this is our.

Nicole Wallace (43:03)

Fight, and we can win The Best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Harvard political scientist Erica Chenoweth.

Marat Katcha (43:34)

People often find out the world they're.

Nicole Wallace (43:37)

In after the fact.

Marat Katcha (43:38)

And that's what makes this wave of global autocratization, as they call it, much more like the one that was in the 1920s and 30s than the one that was in like the 1960s and 70s. Because in the 60s and 70s, there were bright lines.

Nicole Wallace (43:51)

There was a coup outright by the.

Marat Katcha (43:53)

Military declaring themselves the caretaker government, or.

Nicole Wallace (43:56)

There was an armed revolution that won.

Marat Katcha (43:58)

We're in a different world where most of the aspiring autocrats today are elected authoritarians.

Nicole Wallace (44:04)

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening? Where you're listening right now and follow.

Chuck Todd (44:10)

An update on the nationwide redistricting fights. The Missouri House today approved that state's new congressional map designed to strip Democrats of the congressional seat. The current map already includes six Republican leaning districts and just two Democratic leaning districts. Donald Trump has urged Republicans there to act quickly on a new map which is now headed to the state Senate. They could take that up as early as tomorrow before it reaches Republican Governor Mike Kehoe's desk. The Democratic congressman who this map threatens to unseat, Emmanuel Cleaver, has vowed to challenge the map in court. Will stay on top of that story. One more break. We'll be right back. It is straight out of a dictator's playbook. Make people believe that we have no power, that everything is hopeless, that there's nothing we can do. Well, Stacey Abrams has a lot to say about that.

Nicole Wallace (45:02)

We've got to show we can deliver.

Chuck Todd (45:03)

Even when we don't have all the levers of power.

Marat Katcha (45:06)

What I like to remind folks is.

Nicole Wallace (45:07)

Before we had power, before we had.

Marat Katcha (45:09)

Money, we had each other.

Nicole Wallace (45:10)

It's how we built society.

Chuck Todd (45:12)

It's how we won revolutions.

Nicole Wallace (45:13)

It's how we defeated fascism. It's how we defeated Jim Crow. We didn't have the power. What we had was each other and we turned that into power.

Chuck Todd (45:24)

Stacey Abrams is a force of nature. She's a voting rights activist. She's a best selling author. She is a guiding light and a light for the pro democracy movement. She is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People now available on YouTube. Scan the QR code on your screen, let me know what you think. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.

Nicole Wallace (45:46)

Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers and sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details. I need a coffee. And you need Lifelock because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com specialoffer terms apply.