"Stone-faced silence"

Summary

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"Stone-faced Silence" — Deadline: White House with Nicolle Wallace

Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace | Guests: Priya Sardar, Frank Kendall, Gen. Steve Anderson, Amy McGrath, Sen. Tammy Duckworth

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on the unprecedented use of the U.S. military in domestic affairs under President Donald Trump and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, spotlighting a controversial speech to senior military leaders ahead of a likely government shutdown. Host Nicolle Wallace and guests dissect the administration’s move to further politicize the military, dismantle diversity initiatives, and lay the rhetorical groundwork for deploying military forces in American cities under the guise of combating an "enemy within." The conversation is framed by visible discomfort and "stone-faced silence" among military brass, questioning the administration’s respect for democratic norms, military professionalism, and constitutional limits.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. President Trump’s Speech: Tone, Substance, and Risks

• Wallace opens by contrasting historic presidential respect for the military with Trump’s controversial remarks, which included referencing fallen troops as "losers" and "suckers" ([02:10–03:27]).
• Trump’s speech was described as “awkward, embarrassing, incredibly low energy,” and “deeply disturbing,” particularly for advocating regular military deployment in American cities ([03:27]).

Nicolle Wallace:
"The nation's senior military leaders for the most part sat in stone-faced silence as Trump talked at them for more than one hour." ([03:27])

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2. Rebranding and ‘De-wokeification’ of the Pentagon

• Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s speech immediately preceded Trump’s, announcing a rebranding to the "Department of War" and unveiling 10 directives to reverse “woke” DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) policies ([06:01]).
• Directives include changes to grooming and physical standards, implying possible elimination of women in combat roles, and firing of senior leaders—disproportionately women and people of color ([06:01–08:21]).

Priya Sardar:
"He…issued 10 new directives...changing things like grooming standards and physical standards, and said, you know, if the result…is that we don't have women in combat roles anymore, then so be it." ([06:47])

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3. Rhetoric of ‘Invasion from Within’ and Domestic Military Use

• Trump explicitly called for U.S. troops to be used in Chicago and Portland as "training grounds" to manage "dangerous" cities and combat "the enemy within"—rhetoric blurring lines between policy and authoritarian threat ([04:58–09:41]).
• Priya Sardar notes the vague, politically motivated labeling of domestic groups as enemies, with deployments in cities tied to crackdowns on protests and immigration enforcement.

Donald Trump (quoted by Priya Sardar):
"We are under invasion from an enemy within…these people don’t have uniforms…" ([04:58])

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4. Military Reaction: Disquiet, Professionalism, and the Constitution

• All panelists highlight military unease—military leaders’ “stone-faced silence” at the speech as indicative of deep discomfort ([03:27–04:58]).
• Secretary Kendall asserts this is a pattern of demonizing political opponents and normalizing military use against civilians ([12:41]).
• Gen. Anderson recalls past guardrails (e.g., Gen. John Kelly) are gone, leaving the military vulnerable to politicization and compromised loyalty to the Constitution ([15:09]).

Gen. Steve Anderson:
"He wants to politicize the military…blur [the] lines. Loyalty to a person versus loyalty to the Constitution." ([15:25])

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5. Civil-Military Relations: Legal and Moral Boundaries

• The Posse Comitatus Act (1870) precludes using the military as domestic law enforcement ([31:50]).
• Panelists warn that replacing professional standards with loyalty tests threatens both legality and military cohesion, drawing historical parallels to authoritarian regimes.

Gen. Anderson:
"Absolutely…Posse Comitatus does not allow military to be used as a police force…this was an absolute embarrassing chapter." ([31:50])

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6. Degradation of Diversity, Accountability, and Readiness

• Amy McGrath and Secretary Kendall emphasize the purge of women and minorities, undermining America's military strength, reflecting a drive to replace qualified leaders with political loyalists ([26:03], [26:58]).
• Concerns raised over dismantling inspector general protections, rules of engagement, and military legal safeguards ([41:48]).

Amy McGrath:
"It's about talent. You want the best talent that America has to offer in the military…To single out minorities or women…is an insult to every woman who has served." ([26:58])

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7. Senator Tammy Duckworth: Oversight, Oversight Failures, and Path Forward

• Duckworth identifies the systematic dismantling of institutional oversight and judicial avenues for resistance, reaffirming trust in the professionalism and constitutional loyalty of military personnel ([41:48–44:19]).
• Warns of readiness and recruitment challenges if military remains focused on domestic repression over constitutional defense ([44:19]).

Sen. Tammy Duckworth:
"Our troops did not sign up to be on the streets to intimidate their neighbors…They sign up to, to protect Americans, to defend the Constitution, to fight our enemies overseas." ([44:19])

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8. International Perspective: Damage to American Prestige

• Global reaction framed as ridicule and concern for America’s decline—panel sees adversaries emboldened as U.S. moral authority and credibility erode ([47:16]).

Gen. Anderson:
"Our world status is weakening every day that Donald Trump remains in power…our enemies have noticed this, and they're going to be filling the void." ([47:16])

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9. Public Opinion & Next Steps

• New polling: 51% of Americans more concerned about Trump using the National Guard to intimidate opponents than about local crime itself ([35:14]).

Nicolle Wallace:
"You have 51% of Americans who are afraid of them, that they're being used by Donald Trump to intimidate Donald Trump's political enemies." ([35:14])

• Amy McGrath and others call for citizen awareness, collective action, and retired military voices to publicly reaffirm constitutional norms and resist normalization of domestically politicized military action ([49:37]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Wallace on military silence:
  “The nation's senior military leaders for the most part sat in stone-faced silence as Trump talked at them for more than one hour.” ([03:27])

• Trump on military use in cities:
  “We should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military National Guard.” ([04:58], summarized/paraphrased by Wallace/Sardar)

• McGrath on loss of military professionalism:
  "Why is a cabinet secretary wasting time bringing all these generals and admirals into one room to talk about grooming standards...I was embarrassed for the Secretary of Defense or Secretary of War, whatever you want to call it, in his own insecurity here." ([16:51])

• Gen. Anderson on loyalty:
  "Loyalty is everything…[Trump] is trying to set conditions so that he can utilize the military to consolidate his political power." ([39:23])

• Sen. Duckworth on mission drift:
  "Our troops did not sign up to...turn their weapons on their fellow Americans." ([44:19])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening context & historic contrast: [01:09–03:27]
• Trump’s speech summary and implications: [03:27–04:58]
• Panel introductions, Hegseth speech recap, DEI rollback: [05:29–08:21]
• ‘Enemy within’ rhetoric and deployment details: [08:21–11:06]
• Impact on civil-military relations: [11:06–16:38]
• Gender, DEI, and standards in military: [26:03–28:16]
• Rules, oversight, and legal boundaries: [31:35–33:03], [41:48–43:00]
• Polling and National Guard public perception: [35:14–36:20]
• Sen. Duckworth on congressional action and readiness: [40:28–45:36]
• International reactions: [47:16]
• Call to action and public role: [49:37]

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Flow & Tone

The episode is frank, urgent, and at times incredulous—conveying shock at both the rhetorical and operational directions of the current administration. The featured voices—retired military officers, national security professionals, and sitting lawmakers—share a common tone of alarm, concern for tradition and legality, and calls for collective civic engagement. The conversational flow moves from reactions to the day’s events, through analysis of legal, policy, and international ramifications, to specific warnings about the normalization of authoritarian practices.

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In summary:
This episode offers a chilling account of a pivotal moment in civil-military relations—where American generals’ “stone-faced silence” signals alarm, and where panelists unite to denounce the politicization and degradation of the armed forces. The warnings are stark: the strength of America's military and democracy, they agree, hinges not on showmanship or retributive politics, but on fidelity to law, professionalism, and character.

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Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Hi there everyone. It's 4 o' clock in New York. Every American president in history has addressed the members of the military at vital moments in our country's history with care and intention and deep respect. It sounds something like this.

[General Steve Anderson]

The people of this country do not.

[Nicole Wallace]

Appreciate how secure we are because of.

[General Steve Anderson]

The devotion of men and their wives.

[Nicole Wallace]

And children who serve this country in.

[General Steve Anderson]

Far off places, in the sea, in the air and on the ground thousands and thousands of miles away from this country, who make it possible for us all to live in peace each day.

[Nicole Wallace]

You all knew that some things are worth dying for.

[General Steve Anderson]

One's country is worth dying for and.

[Nicole Wallace]

Democracy is worth dying for because it's.

[General Steve Anderson]

The most deeply honorable form of government ever devised by man.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Freedom is not an accident. Progress is not an accident.

[Nicole Wallace]

Democracy is not an accident. These are things that have to be.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Fought for and you're part of that legacy. They must be won and they've got to be tended to constantly and defended without fail. But this president, the one we have now, the guy who once described the ultimate sacrifice, military members losing their lives as ones being made only by, quote, losers and quote, suckers sounded very different today.

[Nicole Wallace]

I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is very. Don't laugh, don't laugh. You're not allowed to do that. You know what? Just have a good time. I moved a submarine or two. I won't say about the two over to the coast of Russia just to be careful because we can't let people throw around that word. I call it the N word. There are two N words and you can't use either of them. You can't use either of them. And I'm not a fan of some of the ships you do. I'm a very aesthetic person and I don't like some of the ships you're doing aesthetically.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

I was just taking notes to make sure I really heard what I heard. As you just heard and saw. Donald Trump played the part of commander in chief of the armed forces. Today. He gave a speech before senior military leaders. It was at turns awkward, embarrassing. The whole thing was incredibly low energy. And the substance of what he said was deeply disturbing. The Trump administration dragged hundreds of the nation's top generals from posts all around the world for an event just hours ahead of a potential government shutdown. It's an event that presented all sorts of operational and logistical challenges and hardships and raises red flags about whether the military will be able to handle a crisis should something happen today or tomorrow while they're on their way back. As these images attest, the nation's senior military leaders for the most part sat in stone faced silence as Trump talked at them for more than one hour. But in between the political attacks he made and the ranting and raving and meandering he did, he did deliver a message that should alarm anyone who cares about the men and women in that room or the institution of the military or the Constitution or democracy here and around the world. Because Donald Trump actually spent a good amount of time today laying the groundwork for the United States military to regularly and increasingly and perhaps indefinitely be deployed on the streets of American cities.

[Nicole Wallace]

While America is under invasion from within. We're under invasion from within. No different than a foreign enemy, but more difficult in many ways because they don't wear uniforms. At least when they're wearing a uniform, you can take them out. These people don't have uniforms. But we are under invasion from within. I told Pete we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military National Guard. But military.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

That'S where we start today. MSNBC Pentagon correspondent Priya Sardar is here. Also joining us, former secretary of the Air Force and a senior fellow at the center for American Progress, Secretary Frank Kendall is here. Retired U.S. army Brigadier General Steve Anderson is here. And retired U.S. marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel and co founder of the Truth in the barrel podcast, Amy McGrath is here. Priya, I start with you for the headlines.

[Priya Sardar]

Yeah, that's right. So this speech came immediately following Defense Secretary Pete. Hegsett's speech where he really railed against the Department of Defense and went into talking about why it has been rebranded the Department of War. And he said the reason for that is because the Department of Defense had become too woke. He said that in order to essentially fix it, they needed to really roll back many of those DEI policies that he felt the previous administration put into place. And I know we're going to go into more detail about exactly what he rolled out today, but he essentially issued 10 new directives from the Department of War that these senior military leaders are now going to be required to implement. And a lot of them are changing things like grooming standards and physical standards, and said that, you know, if the result of that is that we don't have women in combat roles anymore, then so be it. He also said that, you know, he wants to get rid of what he called debris. And he was essentially referring to a lot of the senior military leaders that he fired earlier this year. Many of them, by the way, were women and people of color who he says were promoted because of essentially trying to meet quotas, according to him, being historic first. So when President Trump took the stage, he basically said that he agrees with everything that Defense Secretary Hegseth put into place, also calling this Department of Defense woke department. So that was really the tone that we saw today. As you mentioned, there wasn't much reaction from the audience, which is what was to be expected. Remember, these military leaders took an oath to the Constitution and the commander in chief, regardless of political party or Persona. But President Trump also made kind of a joke and a little bit of a veiled threat. And he said, if you guys don't applaud or laugh at my jokes, I will reduce you in rank. And that did elicit a little bit of a laugh from the crowd. But as you mentioned, a lot of the speech was very political in nature.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Priya Trump said, quote, we are under invasion from an enemy within. Who is that enemy, and where have they invaded?

[Priya Sardar]

So, according to the president, he said that he has spoken to Pete, as he called him, about using our military troops to train in domestic cities, because he said they are very dangerous places. And the two cities that he referred to in his speech were Chicago, where he was talking about the incompetence of Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker. And he referred to a lot of murder statistics from over the weekend. And he said that the military is needed to bring those crime rates down. And then he also went on to talk about Portland, Oregon, and he said, I have spoken to Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem about using the military troops in cities where potentially ICE detention facilities are under threat from antifa or other domestic terrorists, he called them who are protesting outside of those facilities. So he said he's not afraid to deploy more troops across the country in these cities. And he actually thinks that those could potentially be really great training grounds for the military to train for wars overseas.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

But is it clear to you who the enemy within is? Which people?

[Priya Sardar]

I mean, as usual, he didn't necessarily define things in specific terms, but of course, in recent weeks we have heard a lot of rhetoric from him about labeling domestic terrorist organizations and left wing groups. And so that seemed to be what he was alluding to. But again, you know, these are things that aren't necessarily discussed with senior military leaders. These are politics and policy decisions with people who are looking for direct orders, operational cues, how to implement these things, not necessarily all the politics behind what they have to execute on the ground. But needless to say, you know, we've seen this administration deploy troops to the border when he was talking about trying to harden the border. And then we also saw troops being deployed to Los Angeles. So we've seen this consistently over the past several months. And now they're being used in this new capacity to essentially try to sell, squash any sort of crime and also any people that could be resisting some of his immigration policies and ICE raids across the country.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Secretary Kendall In 2018, the invasion was used to describe a mirage of a caravan racing toward the southern border. There was no horde caravan racing toward the southern border. The invasion was something that he would go to the Roosevelt Room and warn about and talk about in the days leading up to the midterm elections. The enemy within is language he adopted during this year's presidential cycle, and he used it in interviews with Univision and Telemundo as well as with journalists or cable hosts like Laura Ingraham who would push back and, and almost try to move him off a designation of political opponents as a, quote, enemy within. He has combined two of the most dangerous rhetorical devices he's deployed since he's entered American politics. And he said to a room today of our country's top military leaders that he, he needs their help or he plans to deploy them because we are, quote, under invasion from an enemy within. He's now melded the invasion that he's long used to describe people coming to this country as asylum seekers or illegally or undocumented with language that he re upped about a week ago Sunday about His opponents saying, quote, I hate them. Where does this leave the military?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, first of all, Nicole, the summary earlier was fairly accurate. I listened to both Secretary Hicks speech and President Trump's speech in their entirety, and I really encourage people to do that. I would describe them as bizarre, unhinged, and most importantly, as you indicated earlier, dangerous. This is part of a pattern we're seeing from the administration of demonizing their political enemies. I don't think there was any confusion in particularly President Trump's speech about who those were. Radical left Democratic mayors were specifically referred to. So we're seeing a continuation of the pattern that you talked about from earlier and a campaign, if you will, to demonize his political opponents and make it acceptable to use the military against them, including in our cities. It's a very dangerous time for our country.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

General Anderson, let me show you what General John Kelly tried to warn the country about in terms of Trump's interest in doing exactly what he telegraphed today.

[General Steve Anderson]

And I think this, this issue of, of using the military to go after American citizens is one of those things I think is, is a very, very.

[Nicole Wallace]

Bad thing, even to say it for political purposes to get elected. I think it's a very, very bad.

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Thing, let alone actually doing it.

[Amy McGrath]

When I was in the White House.

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For that matter, dhs, I was.

[Nicole Wallace]

You.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Know, originally the conversation would be, you.

[General Steve Anderson]

Know, Mr. President, that's outside your authority.

[Nicole Wallace]

Or, you know, that, you know, that's a routine use. You really don't want to do that inside the United States.

[General Steve Anderson]

But now that he's talking about it.

[Nicole Wallace]

As I'm going to do it, is again, it's disturbing.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

General Anderson, I play that because at the time, that's about 10 days before, about a week before the last November's election. And General Kelly, having seen Trump up close and personal and describing him as, quote, the most damaged human being he's ever seen, is assessing that it's something he's saying for, quote, political purposes and is viewing it as far less likely that he's going to do it. Just talk about how far Trump has sort of descended into that, which is not in the American tradition and not in the tradition of any of the world's democracies.

[General Steve Anderson]

Well, thanks, Nicole. I mean, those are the good old days when we had people around President Trump that actually had some common sense and some decency, like General Kelly. But they're gone now. Those people are gone now. There's no guardrails. What this president wants to do was made very clear today by Secretary of Defense. Hegseth and the president himself. He wants to politicize the military. He wants to utilize the military to consolidate political power, full stop. End of the story. That's what he's trying to do. He wants to blur the lines. The oath that we took to support and defend the Constitution. He wants people to think about supporting, defending him and blur those lines. Loyalty to a person versus loyalty to the Constitution. He wants to make sure that the US Military will jump and ask how high when he says jump. He wants them to essentially be subservient to all of his wishes and his demands in his attempts to consolidate political power. And case in point, I mean, look at what happened in Washington, look at what happened in Los Angeles. Look what's happening on the US Southern border. And now he's saying he wants to do more of that. And when we do that, when we execute those missions internally with the United States, what don't we do? We don't support our allies. We don't have forward presence anymore. And that is essentially what has kept the world safe for 80 years. So I'm very, very disturbed by what I heard today.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Amy, I know you've got an ear to the ground inside the military and inside sort of the pro democracy political coalition. What are you hearing today and thinking?

[Amy McGrath]

Well, first thing I'm hearing is how humiliating it is to be lectured on warrior ethos by someone with way less experience in being a warrior than all of the people sitting in that room. I think that's the first thing. And also, why is a cabinet secretary wasting time bringing all these generals and admirals into one room to talk about grooming standards? That's haircuts, folks, and physical fitness standards. That's what the personnel departments of services do. Honestly, I was embarrassed for the Secretary of Defense or Secretary of War, whatever you want to call it, in his own insecurity here, Trump's speech was also very instructive, I think, for many men and women in the military, because it was just bonkers and lots of lies, politicization, craziness, and also that WTF moment that you all were just talking about with using our military inside our country.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Amy, have you seen any pushback from Republican members of either the oversight committees today?

[Amy McGrath]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any pushback from Republicans at this point. And that's really also very sad because we can't politicize our military. We cannot allow the President of the United States and the Secretary of War, Secretary of Defense, to do this sort of thing. It's just un American. It is not what we do in America. It's just again, it's a bonkers speech today.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

I'm going to ask you to all of you, to stick around for the hour. Priya, thank you for your reporting on this. If anything breaks while we're on the air, please wave your hands. We'll get you right back on camera to tell us about it when we come back. Much more on the spectacle today. Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth admonishing the nation's top generals. We'll show you some of what people are talking about from former Fox News Weekend morning show anchor Pete Hegseth. Also ahead, more evidence of just how involved Donald Trump's former personal defense attorney, Todd Blanche, who is now the number two at the United States Department of Justice is when it comes to targeting and ultimately prosecuting Donald Trump's perceived political enemies. And later in the broadcast, you know negotiations aren't going well. The president of the United States posts an insulting and completely fake video meme. The top Democrats on Capitol Hill seemingly tanking any chance of striking a deal before midnight tonight when government funding runs out. We'll get to that. We'll explain why that matters to everybody and a whole lot more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

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[Nicole Wallace]

President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the the American people.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

The American people are basically telling the.

[Amy McGrath]

President that they are not okay with any of this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts should our enemies choose foolishly to challenge us, they will be crushed by the violence, precision and ferocity of the War Department. In other words, to our enemies. Fafo no more Identity Months DEI offices, dudes in dresses. Likewise, it's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the Pentagon and leading commands around the.

[Amy McGrath]

Country and the world.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's a bad look.

[Amy McGrath]

Look, it is bad and it's not who we are.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

I feel mean calling on one of you to go first. But Secretary Kendall, I'll start with you I have never heard of I spent a lot of time in government and even more time now watching and covering government and national security and I've never heard a secretary of defense boast about violence of the men and women of the American military. What did you hear there?

[Nicole Wallace]

I heard a person who really frankly shouldn't be in the jobbieson. He was lecturing this group of generals and admirals and senior NCOs like a drill sergeant does about things that they don't need to be lectured about. We have an incredibly professional military they don't need to be lectured to by Pete Hegseth about the sort of things he was talking about. He has emphasized violence and lethality from day one. American military behaves with principles, under sets of values, under the rule of law and everybody in that room knows that and they're very proud of that. So the tone that he set and the imaginary woke military he described which does not and never has existed, it was a bunch of nonsense. And again, everybody in the room understood that this was a very embarrassing thing for the administration to do and for anybody to do in front of our officers.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

I mean, General Anderson Hegseth is on Trump's radar because he champions Donald Trump intervening in the military justice system. He champions Trump intervening to essentially override then Secretary of Defense Mark Esper's wish for the military's system of adjudicating alleged war crimes to work and for Donald Trump to leave that alone and to honor it. And it's about at least one of the individuals is accused of carrying out war crimes. That's how Pete Hegseth was first on Trump's radar because he championed those individuals as a Fox News Weekend morning co anchor. I saw that legacy in this room today. How do the men and women of the military feel about that legacy?

[General Steve Anderson]

Well, I can Tell you, Nicole, there are probably 700 or 800 gathered in that audience today, walked out of that meeting, shaken their head, saying, I flew 8,000 miles to hear that. I mean, as Secretary Kendall said, I mean, it was just an absolutely abysmal, sad state of affairs to have to sit through that and listen to that disaster of a speech. But I mean, a couple things that really, I think, pointed out to me. First of all, did you notice that President Trump showed up late? He was 26 minutes late. I mean, that's a meeting that we've known about for at least a week. He couldn't even be there on time. The second thing is, he wasn't there for Secretary Hexseth's comments. It shows how insecure he is that he can't even sit through his own secretary's speech. He's a much more compelling personal speaker than Donald Trump. And I think that probably came to play. But, I mean, it's sad again, they know that they're being used politically as a pawn in his attempt to retain political power. And I think that they're all walked away very, very disgusted by what they saw. They're very upset with the denigration of so many members of the military. You know, removing the guardrails for protections against harassment and discrimination by denigrating minorities, women, you know, people of other sexual preferences, other religions. I mean, he called out Christianity a couple of times. I mean, this is not who we are. We are Americans, and our military is meant to represent all of us out there. We cannot turn back the clock 100 years to make the world run by a bunch of old, rich white guys.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Amy, I am thinking about Priya's reporting that, you know, the extension of this is to purge women from combat. The extension of this is not to elevate qualified senior leaders of color because they're so insecure and fearful of this boogieman that they've created for themselves in dei. I mean, this is. They are moving the military into, seem to be intent on depriving it of its central strength, which is that it is a reflection of the country it serves around the world, the nation it protects, the values it projects and protects, or at least has through its history. This feels like a tectonic moment and a full mask off reveal from Trump and Hegseth.

[Amy McGrath]

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. And all of this, at least from Secretary Hegseth, coming from a man, if you remember, who texted classified military operational secrets to his buddies lecturing generals and admirals about professionalism and standards. But, but to your point, Nicole, about, particularly about women in the military, it's about talent. That's what it comes down to. You want the best talent that America has to offer in the military. And it's not easy to be in the military, okay? Not everyone is qualified. And so to single out minorities or women as somehow unqualified in this, I hate to say it, BS rant about women and standards that Pete Hegset has had going on for a long time now is an insult to every woman who has served and met combat standards that have always, and let me be clear, always been equal for combat jobs. And he continues to lie about this. It shows how hollow and insecure he is and the fact that he is so unrespected as a leader here. It's just to me, as someone who served, as a woman who served, it's really embarrassing to see.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

You know what's interesting to me as you're speaking is he's talking about haircuts, but he didn't say anything about character. And this was his character. This is what created to Pete Hegseth, I think being the first ever secretary of defense who was confirmed with opposition from both parties, Donald Trump couldn't keep his own party in line. He was credibly accused of rape, an incident that was investigated by the Monterey, California Police Department. He is a self described person who drank Megyn Kelly on her podcast that he, quote, wouldn't do that anymore. And he's been described by Mr. Ouliot, who was a person in good standing in Maga for running a very unstable and inconsistent operation, if you will. I'm being as generous as I possibly can because I don't have that article in front of me. It was written, it was penned in Politico in the first months of his term there. He's also described by insiders as being so paranoid as to be purging his own loyalists on a near weekly basis. And he's asked the members of the media, including right wing media, to sign an oath saying they won't print anything unless it comes from the government, which is how they do things in North Korea. What do you think of the absence of any discussion of character?

[Nicole Wallace]

There was a huge absence of.

[Amy McGrath]

If you're asking me, Nicole, I want.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

To hear from all of you. Let me go back down. I'll start with you, Amy.

[Amy McGrath]

Well, look, since the moment I raised my right hand, I was 18 years old, swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States and Tecumseh Court in Annapolis, Maryland. All I was Trained on were things like character and honor. That was like what is seeped in you as someone in the military. And Pete Hegseth, I've said this before, doesn't have those qualities. Okay. And he is now leading a force that really prides itself on those things. And I think that's really important. The other thing you didn't hear in the speech, which I also think is really important, is there is no coherent foreign policy, no coherent defense policy in this speech. It was all a bunch of lies, politicization of the military and frankly, BS craziness. And that also probably left 700 of the 800, as was stated earlier, generals and admirals leaving, having to scratch their heads like, wow, who do we have.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Leading us Secretary Kendall.

[Nicole Wallace]

There was an absence of discussion of character and as Amy indicated, foreign policy, there was very little. There was no discussion of China as a threat. There was a great deal of discussion of domestic threats and supposedly the radical left, an invasion by immigrants. This was a speech. Both of these speeches, I think, were deeply embarrassing. And they both created imaginary enemies to deal with, and they both were full of untruths. And people in the audience all knew that. I think both of these speeches, quite frankly, were as intended for the political base as they were for the officers in the room.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

I mean, doesn't. Is it Posse Comitatus preclude the military from being used? I mean, isn't that. Forget all of the disgrace that this was. Isn't it also Illegal and unconstitutional? General Anderson?

[General Steve Anderson]

Absolutely. 1870, it was passed that law, Posse comatitis, it does not allow military to be used as a police force. So they're violating the law by deploying soldiers like this. And so, you know, I mean, Secretary Kendall and Amy been spot on target. I mean, this was an absolute embarrassing, embarrassing chapter. I mean, I think back to 1935 when Hitler called in the Vermont and essentially gave him a dressing gown and said, get on board or you're going to be gone or going to be shot. And it's almost. We're almost to that point now. It's just so sad where our country is going right now. And Americans have got to stand up for this, against this. This is an absolute embarrassing. I mean, you know, the secretary of defense, the secretary of Secretary Kendall pointed out works at the strategic level. Okay, this was not a strategic level speech. This was a tactical level. Talking about haircuts, as Amy said earlier, you know, we have some major threats with Russia, ongoing war in Ukraine, of course, all the issues ongoing in Gaza. You got a Chinese threat, menacing out there. That's what the national security strategy should be focused on. That's what the secretary of defense should be focused on, not on haircuts and fat soldiers.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

I want to ask all of you to just weigh in on what happens if this absolute drenching of the most senior members, the actual people who make up the most senior ranks of the military. In politics, deeply polarizing politics, Trump's approval rating is somewhere between 36 and 39% in every poll. I was able to find this week what that does to the men and women of the military at lower levels. I have to sneak in a quick break. We'll have that conversation on the other side. Senator Tammy Duckworth will join us as well. Quick break. We'll all be right back.

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

We're back with Secretary Kendall, General Anderson and Amy McGrath. Let me, let me put up some numbers just to put this in the context of the data that we have right now. According to New York Times. Sienna, which is more concerning to you? Americans were asked crime spiraling out of control. If the national guard isn't involved, 42% or that Trump will use the National Guard to intimidate opponents. 51%. So now you've got 51% of the American people are scared of not active duty troops, but National Guard who they're used to seeing in times of natural disasters, hurricane relief, storm rel, floods. You have 51% of Americans who are afraid of them, that they're being used by Donald Trump to intimidate Donald Trump's political enemies, someone he described today, I believe, for the first time as, quote, leading an invasion. What happens to the men and women of the military who, at least in the National Guard, are often from or adjacent to the communities they're asked to protect? Secretary Kendall.

[Nicole Wallace]

Our military, first of all, as was said earlier, is composed of very professional people. Character is emphasized. You've got three academy graduates on your panel here, different academies. But character and leadership leading with character has been beaten into all this over and over and over. The same is true, I think, of the National Guard. They are a little different in that they're units which are very socially associated with their locales, with their states in particular, but also with where they happen to be in the state. What's been done so far is to take people from other states and bring them to places like Washington to be used. And Oregon, I think they're going to call up some of the Oregon National Guard. So it's been a mix. I think these people are fairly professional. They don't have as much experience as people who are on active duty, serving on active duty, but they've had that experience in most cases historically. I do think, however, that this administration is trying to set the groundwork for using military force in America against American citizens. And I think it's a very dangerous time. They're also working to bring people that they consider to be political loyalists into positions of leadership. The numbers of firings of senior generals in the military is extraordinary. I've never seen anything remotely like that before. Generals are occasionally relieved for cause because they did something wrong. I have never seen them relieved because of perceived loyalty before. So we're they. And there's a fair amount of time available to this administration to put the people that they feel like are loyal into positions. And you see similar things happening other places in the administration. As was mentioned by, I think, General Anderson, when the Trump administration came in the first time, a lot of career people, people like Jim Mattis, came in, in senior positions. You don't have that this time. So I think there is a real concern about how much the military will be politicized Given that there are three and a half years to try to identify loyal and put them in the positions.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

I want to be really specific here because I think when we talk about loyalty, we talk about the members of the Republican members of Congress who have pledged loyalty to a MAGA agenda. It is an entirely different thing in the military. Mark Esper was a lifelong Republican who led the Pentagon. He is deemed as disloyal. Mark Milley had no political association, was saying combat for our country. He is deemed disloyal. General Kelly, he and his family have given more to this country and the military than anyone can. His own son lost his life in Afghanistan. He is deemed disloyal. He would not pass Donald Trump's loyalty test. John McCain was described this way by Donald Trump, quote, I like the ones that aren't shot down. Lifelong Republican, he was the Republican Party standard bearer. So when we talk about loyalty in the context of the military, it has nothing to do with liking his picks for the Supreme Court. It has to do with something much deeper and much darker. And I want to ask all of you if you think it extends to carrying out orders that are illegal.

[General Steve Anderson]

General Anderson, it does not extend to carrying out illegal orders. And you know, our loyalty to, to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That's the oath that we took. Our loyalty extends to the Constitution. Donald Trump expects loyalty to him. Look at his cabinet, look at the people he's surrounding himself with. Competence means nothing. Expertise means nothing. Experience means nothing. Loyalty is everything. And so what he's going to try to do do is try to get loyal people in the military so he can execute his will. I mean, one of the things I'm really concerned about long term. I mean, we're six months into this. A couple of years from now, we could be talking about the Insurrection Act. And in order to do the Insurrection Act, Donald Trump is going to need to have a loyal military behind him. That's what he's trying to do. He's trying to set conditions so that he can utilize the military to consolidate his political power.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Let me bring into our coverage Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. She's a former US army helicopter pilot and a Purple Heart recipient. Senator Duckworth, thank you for being here. Let me get your reaction to what you saw and heard today. And then I want to play you a little bit more of Trump's speech.

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[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Senator, what exists in the system where the chain of command is what sort of governs the military and the loyalty test we're talking about has nothing to do or isn't exclusively about who someone voted for. It's about their willingness to do what is asked of them. What exists in the system in terms of oversight or protections for the military.

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Is what Hegseth is trying to dismantle. He's trying to dismantle the inspector generals. He's trying to dismantle the JAG officers. He's trying to get rid of the rules of engagement. These are all the safeguards that exist within our military to make sure that our military men and women execute themselves with the highest levels of professional standards and don't get crossways to the Constitution. That said, we have a professional military. We have men and women who have the highest ethical standards, and we have to rely on them to follow their oath of offices, which is not to carry out unlawful orders. That said, we in Congress need to make sure that we hold this president accountable when they abuse the military, and we need to certainly pursue judicial solutions to this. You saw that they lost the court case about sending troops into Los Angeles, for example. So while they continue to try to dismantle the safeguards that exist in the military, we also have to trust in the military men and women, women and their professionalism, and I trust in them implicitly.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Let me show you what Donald Trump said about using the military in what sounded like an indefinite amount of time here in America.

[Nicole Wallace]

Last month, I signed an executive order to provide training for Quick Reaction Force that can help quell SO disturbances. This is going to be a big thing for the people in this room because it's the enemy from within and we have to handle it before it gets out of control.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

And let me just ask you to contrast that with this is News Breaking. Since we've been on the air. The military is not a law enforcement agency. But this is what Trump did with law enforcement. The Department of Homeland Security cut $187 million, or 86% of Homeland Security funding to New York City State, which will radically defund the police, nypd, FDNY and New York State Police terrorism programs. They are defunding police programs and moving the military in as law enforcement. What, again, what, what can be done to stop that? It sounds like it is the wrong mission for the wrong agency, but he's also dismantling law enforcement.

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[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

You said you're not going to let them. How are you going to stop them?

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Well, we as Democrats are doing a number of things. I mentioned that we are suing them in courts. We won the court case in California to show that that was an illegal maneuver to send troops into California. We are going to, you see our Democratic governors refusing to activate our National Guard. The irony is if, for example, governors from red states like Governor Abbott in Texas, if he truly wants to fight crime, maybe he should send Texas National Guard to a city in Texas that has higher crime rates than Chicago. But that said, we need to hold them accountable.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

Senator, thank you so much. I believe the rates in some of those Texas cities are higher than the crime rates and not with the same trajectory as some of the other cities that have been targeted. Senator Duckworth, thank you so much for watching and being here to talk about today's news with us. We're really grateful.

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[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

We're going to sneak in one more break. We'll be back with our panel. General Anderson, if you scan the headlines, Here you cringe to think about what the world's largest newspapers will tell their people about America right now. But this is a couple of them. Trump tells top brass US Cities should be military, quote, training grounds. Novice defense secretary lectures the brass on what it takes to win. What does the world see when they look to that not so shiny city on a hill right now?

[General Steve Anderson]

Unfortunately, they're probably laughing. I mean, our enemies are taking great solace in what's going on right now. China and Russia. And they know that America is weakening. Our world status is weakening every day that Donald Trump remains in power. That's all there is to it, really. You know, Russia is growing stronger. There you got people like Netanyahu that essentially heretofore would have asked permission to do the things that he did. And then now he just tells them afterwards, you know, because he knows that Donald Trump isn't going to do anything. And then Donald Trump invites, you know, Putin over to Alaska, rolls out the red carpet, and then, you know, continues to bomb the Ukrainians as ever before. So. So, I mean, it's really sad to see that the United States is going downhill so fast. And I think that our enemies have noticed this, and they're going to be filling the void.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

You know, Amy, I keep an eye on the polls because it's interesting to me how quickly Trump is moving away from things that were popular enough to get him elected a second time. And military occupations of American cities was never part of it. Right. Retribution was, and it's heinous and horrible and detrimental and makes people around the world laugh at us and makes it unlikely that we'll be lecturing any other democracy about the rule of law anytime soon. But the use of the military is a real sort of hairpin turn in the road, even for Trump. There was a lot written in books by Esper and others, other journalists about how Trump wanted to use the military, how he wanted to bring the military into American cities. And shouting matches erupted between General Milley and Mark Esper, between Stephen Miller and others. And one of the things that's so notable is that no one is shouting anymore. Right. Pete Hegseth is the opening act for Donald Trump, who comes in there and says things that at the end, end of the day, are embarrassing for Donald Trump and politically weakening and diminishing for Donald Trump and weakening Donald Trump's ability to advocate for the United States of America on the world stage, damaging US national security. What is the first step in making the country strong again?

[Amy McGrath]

Well, that's a very good question. And it's a question that a lot of us have been thinking about for a while now. I talk to people every day, and so many people are just, they're sort of beside themselves with what is going on in our country. And when you ask me, you know, what's the first step to making it better, I think it's having people be informed and standing up and saying, enough is enough. We have to do that everyday. People have to do that. And I talk to Trump voters, I talk to people who are on both sides of the aisle here in Kentucky. And when it comes to the use of our military, there's this feeling of like, this isn't something they voted for, this isn't something that they wanted done. And that's true for a lot of policies that he's pushing down. But particularly with the military, we have this sense of we don't really want our troops in the streets of America. You know, we don't want this federal massed force in the streets of America throwing people to the ground like we're some third world country. I mean, people do get that, whether you are wearing a red jersey or a blue jersey, we want to tackle crime, but this isn't the way to do it. And people get that. So I think the first step is just standing up and having folks in the military, not currently in, but retired, saying, hey, this isn't what, this isn't America. This isn't what we should be using our military for.

[Nicole Wallace (Host)]

You all stayed much longer. If you had appointments at 4:30 when you thought you would be done with us, you have missed them or you are now late. And so I want to thank you in front of everyone for being so generous with your time today. Secretary Kendall, General Anderson, Amy McGrath, thank you so much for spending the whole hours with us ahead. For us, we are careening dangerously close to the midnight government shutdown, leaving hundreds of thousands of workers unable to do their jobs. The very latest on those negotiations, Devin Whitehouse continues after quick break.