"Stuck between relaunching a war or accepting a deal on their terms"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Stuck between relaunching a war or accepting a deal on their terms"

Deadline: White House with Nicolle Wallace
Date: May 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace and her guests dissect the Trump administration’s handling of the ongoing war in Iran, the controversy around emerging ceasefire deals, and the administration’s crumbling relationships with both allies and members of its own party. Special attention is paid to questions about what objectives the war was actually meant to achieve, whether any meaningful progress has resulted from conflict, and what the nation’s political and electoral future holds. The episode also highlights rare Republican pushback against Trump’s internal and electoral strategies, with in-depth analysis from former State Department officials and political experts.

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Main Discussion Points & Key Insights

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1. Unclear Objectives and U.S. Leverage in Iran

• Opening Reflections (00:47-03:47):

  • Wallace notes growing dissent even among Trump’s loyal Republican allies (Lindsey Graham, Ted Cruz, Roger Wicker) about the contours of a possible Iran deal.
  • She emphasizes that, from the start, the rationale and objectives of the war were murky:
    • “It has never been clear to the vast majority of the American people why the war was started to begin with, or what the objectives were when we would know we'd succeeded.” (Wallace, 01:22)
  • Despite initial goals (regime change, elimination of missile/nuclear programs), intelligence suggests Iran retains military capacity and nuclear advancement.

• Consequences of ‘War of Choice’ (03:47-06:30):

  • Ambassador Wendy Sherman describes the déjà vu, likening current criticism of a possible deal to opposition against the JCPOA (Iran nuclear deal) she helped negotiate in 2015.
    • “It was a deal that was quite sustainable for a long time...” (Sherman, 03:58)
  • The war has closed the Strait of Hormuz (previously open), put global gas prices at risk, and failed to begin substantial nuclear negotiations.
  • Wallace and Sherman agree the U.S. now has less leverage and Iran’s power to disrupt the Strait remains undeterred.
    • “At any point, Iran can do this again.” (Sherman, 06:18)

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2. Republican Criticism, Trump’s Decision-making, and Administration Infighting

• Mike Pompeo’s Attack (06:30-08:32):

  • Wallace highlights Pompeo’s aggressive criticism likening a new deal to the “Wendy Sherman, Robert Malley, Ben Rhodes playbook.”

  • Sherman responds by recalling the difficulty and necessity of negotiating with Iran while pointing out that the Trump administration abandoned the Iranian people and left them worse off.

  • The White House spokesperson’s crude response to Pompeo becomes a point of ridicule and a symbol of panic.

    • Notable exchange:
      • Wallace (08:32): “Mike Pompeo has no idea what the F he's talking about... With friends like that, I'm not sure who needs enemies.”
      • Tom Nichols (08:58): “Yeah, that's some top notch communicating from the communications director right there.”

3. Analysis of Strategic Failures and Internal GOP Dynamics

• War’s False Promises and the Reality Check (09:03-11:40):
  • Tom Nichols attributes the war’s initiation to Trump’s quest for personal glory and regime change.
    • “Donald Trump thought this would be a war that would bring him glory. I think that's what he was thinking. I shall be the liberator of Iran.” (Nichols, 09:43)
  • After the regime failed to collapse, the administration spiraled into “panicky, sweaty surge for a face saving exit.”
  • U.S. operational successes have produced minimal strategic benefit, massive cost, and an emboldened Iran.

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4. Pitfalls of Political Appointments: The Hegseth Example

• Senate Republican Dissent & Critique of Defense Secretary Hegseth (11:40-16:45):
  • Sen. Thom Tillis and Tom Nichols lambast the appointment of Pete Hegseth (a former Fox News host) as Secretary of Defense, warning that making sycophancy a job qualification has yielded disastrous results.
    • “Of course, you shouldn't have taken a talk show host and put him in charge of the most powerful military in the world…” (Nichols, 14:26)
  • Hegseth’s misjudgments on Iran and other global hotspots, plus the decision to pull back from Europe, have created vulnerabilities and fractured alliances.
  • Nichols doubly notes that even if better advisors existed, Trump’s impulsivity and refusal to listen doomed policy from the outset.

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5. Global Impact: U.S. Diplomacy and Alliance Strain

• Estrangement from Allies (24:12-27:49):
  • Wallace and Sherman discuss the U.S.’s deepening rift with traditional allies, underscored by lack of diplomatic staffing and withdrawal from international organizations.
    • Sherman: “If all of your policy is military first...you're inevitably undercutting our own capacity and our own strength to lead in a way that helps the American people… It's not just oil, it's fertilizer, it's helium, it's magnets… that now we have undermined.” (Sherman, 26:27)
  • There’s consensus that Americans value strength and purpose, but recognize a deficit of “common sense” in current policy.

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6. Republican Infighting and Unexpected Pushback

• South Carolina Redistricting Drama (29:47-33:52):

  • Wallace summarizes a rare Republican defiance of Trump—SC Senate Republicans rejecting a partisan redistricting power play.
    • Rep. Jim Clyburn: “This White House says to hell with the process, to hell with the Constitution. Shame, shame, just do what we want done.” (Clyburn audio, 30:24)
  • Claire McCaskill credits voter turnout and Republican calculation for choosing not to alienate energized Democratic voters.

• Importance of the Black Vote and Political Awareness (33:52-35:01):

  • McCaskill: “I do think that those voters were speaking truth for a whole lot of Americans. I don't think the Republican Party fully realizes the strength of the black vote in the United States of America...”
  • The panel predicts high turnout as a rebuke to attempts at disenfranchisement.

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7. Trump’s Political Vulnerabilities and the MAGA Conundrum

• On Defiance and Party Strategy (35:14-39:51):
  • Rhodes and McCaskill reflect on Trump’s skill at dominating and punishing GOP dissenters, but note that these tactics may harm Republican electoral prospects.
  • Discussion centers on the high cost and inefficiency of GOP infighting, especially in Senate races.
  • McCaskill: “The Republicans in the United States Senate are cowards. They have lost their moral compass. They have no spine. They are absolutely showing complete fealty to a guy they know is terrible for our country. No excuse.” (McCaskill, 39:21)

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8. Agency, History, and the Trap of Fatalism

• The Futility of Fatalism and Historical Perspective (39:51-41:26):
  • Rhodes urges Republicans (and the country) not to believe Trump’s dominance is permanent:
    • “We're trapped with Trump. He's just there. We can't do anything about it... Yes, you can. ... It will end. This is his last midterm election as president...” (Rhodes, 40:41-41:00)
  • Wallace uses the metaphor of “Memento,” emphasizing the need to remember that change is both possible and inevitable.

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Notable Quotes

| Speaker | Time | Quote | |-------------------------|----------|-------| | Nicolle Wallace | 01:22 | "It has never been clear to the vast majority of the American people why the war was started to begin with, or what the objectives were when we would know we'd succeeded." | | Ambassador Wendy Sherman| 03:58 | "Indeed, it was a deal that was quite sustainable for a long time and certainly could have been extended through swift and good negotiations." | | Tom Nichols | 09:43 | "Donald Trump thought this would be a war that would bring him glory. I think that's what he was thinking. I shall be the liberator of Iran." | | Ben Rhodes | 20:05 | "They have walked this entire country and the entire global economy down a dead end by doing exactly what we warned during the debate over the JCPOA." | | Claire McCaskill | 39:21 | "The Republicans in the United States Senate are cowards. They have lost their moral compass. They have no spine. They are absolutely showing complete fealty to a guy they know is terrible for our country. No excuse." | | Ben Rhodes | 40:58 | "It will end. This is his last midterm election as president, United States. A new presidential campaign is going to begin in a few months. And what was it all for?" |

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Timestamps for Crucial Segments

• The War’s Rationale and Failures: 00:47–06:30
• GOP Criticism & Trump Administration Dissent: 06:30–09:03
• Tom Nichols Dissects Trump’s War Logic: 09:03–11:40
• Secretary Hegseth Criticism & Consequences: 11:40–16:45
• Impact on U.S. Allies and Global Influence: 24:12–27:49
• Republican Pushback in South Carolina: 29:47–35:01
• GOP Infighting, Political Outlook: 35:14–39:51
• Agency and Historical Perspective: 39:51–41:26

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Memorable Moments

• Humorous Dig at White House Spokesperson:

  • “Yeah, that's some top notch communicating from the communications director right there.” (Tom Nichols, 08:58)

• Metaphor of ‘Memento’ for Republicans’ Amnesia:

  • “They go to bed every night thinking this is forever when this is literally… You could run a—We should run a countdown clock. It will end in a matter of days, not years.” (Wallace, 40:43)

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Conclusion

This episode provides a candid assessment of the perils of poorly conceived foreign policy, administrative impulsivity, and the GOP’s crisis of internal legitimacy. Through sharp analysis and direct language, Wallace and her guests signal a moment of reckoning not only for the administration but also for a party – and a country – arriving at a crossroads. For listeners seeking clarity on U.S.-Iran dynamics, Republican disarray, and the coming electoral consequences, this episode delivers a rich, relevant, and at times darkly humorous account.

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Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Download today and wonder why the war started to begin with if these perceptions are accurate, End quote. Now time will tell if Lindsey Graham or Ted Cruz or Roger Wicker for that matter. These ride or die allies of the presidents who have today become voices of dissent over the framework or outlines of a deal with Iran will fall into line as they have every single time over the last decade. But in the same way the broken clock is right twice a day, Lindsey Graham is getting to a fundamental truth and unanswered question about the war with Iran. It has never been clear to the vast majority of the American people why the war was started to begin with, or what the objectives were when we would know we'd succeeded. In the early days of the war, Donald Trump had called for regime change very publicly, saying help is on the way, but Iran's brutal dictator has been replaced with that brutal dictator's son. Then it was said that the point of the war with Iran, this was something Marco Rubio said publicly, was to eliminate Iran's missile program and nuclear program and degrade their military. But we know that US Intelligence believes that Iran has retained significant military capabilities and that the nuclear program has hardly been damaged. Now, as Tom Nichols writes in the Atlantic, quote, now the president will end up having to sign off on a set of terms of that will likely make the jcpoa, the Iran deal signed by the Obama administration, look demanding by comparison. And the U.S. proposals, the new York Times reports, quote, focuses on ending Iran's blockade of the Strait of Hormuz, something that was not an issue before the war started. In any case, Donald Trump may not get the chance to sign off on any deal as the ceasefire is looking very shaky at the moment. US Forces launching strikes overnight While what CENTCOM said were, quote, self defense strikes on missile sites and Iranian boats that were planting mines, Iran's regime is threatening to retaliate against these new strikes. Donald Trump lurching toward a potential end game with the war in Iran is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Deputy Secretary of State, former Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman is here. She led the US Negotiating team that reached an agreement on the Iran nuclear deal in 2015. On also joining us, the aforementioned staff writer at the Atlantic, Tom Nichols, is here. He's a professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the US Naval War College. Ben Rhodes will join us in a moment. Ambassador Sherman, let me start with you and your thoughts on these very notable, as I call them, ride or die allies of Donald Trump sounding very public alarms about what's been reported about a possible deal.

[Ambassador Wendy Sherman]

I feel like it's a little bit of deja vu because when we were doing the jcpoa, the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, better known as the Iran nuclear deal, these were the voices that were saying, it is a bad deal. It doesn't take care of everything. It doesn't stop everything forever. Indeed, it was a deal that was quite sustainable for a long time and certainly could have been extended through swift and good negotiations. That said, we're in a very different place now. As you pointed out, before the president started this war of choice, this ill choice, the Strait of Hormuz was open. There was freedom of navigation. And now he has to spend all of his time figuring out how to open the Strait of Hormuz, end our blockade, get gas prices down, which will take at least two or three months to be achieved once this is accomplished, all the while not really having started negotiating on the nuclear issues, figuring out how to verify or monitor any of it, including the end of the Strait of Hormuz. So lots of details and very little substance so far.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, let me just ask. I mean, it seems like an undeniable conclusion to say that we are worse off, we are in a worse position in terms of leverage and accomplishments now than before the war started. What I mean, I want to say, what were they thinking? But I don't. I mean, if you have, what were they thinking, Ambassador?

[Ambassador Wendy Sherman]

I have no idea. I've stopped trying to understand how the president thinks other than sometimes being quite impulsive. Look, we always knew and every administration, Democrat and Republican, had gamed out the use of the Strait of Hormuz as leverage. This was nothing new. We had all gamed out that, in fact, it could start an Arab Persian war, that Iran could attack our allies and partners in the Gulf. This is nothing new, but in fact, President Trump move forward and all of those things happened. So the points of leverage are now quite clear that Iran has. And even if the Strait of Hormuz can be opened, if the blockade ends, if gas prices stabilize over the months ahead, we will be nowhere where we need to be. And we will all understand that at any point, Iran can do this again.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me give you a chance to respond to Mike Pompeo, who I think is insulting Trump by insulting you. But I don't think it's quite. I don't think it lands as the flex Mike Pompeo thinks it is, especially once the White House spokesperson, Stephen Chung gets the F bombs involved. But let me read you Mike Pompeo's statement and let you respond, Quote, the deal being floated with Iran seems straight out of the Wendy Sherman, Robert Malley, Ben Rhodes playbook. Pay the IRGC to build a WMD program and terrorize the world. Not remotely. America first. It's straightforward. Open the damn strait. Deny Iran access to money. Take out enough Iranian capability so it cannot threaten our allies in the region. Overdue. Let's go. I think what he means to do is to threaten Donald Trump's, you know, virility with a comparison, an unfavorable one to you. But what he reveals to the world is that Trump has been completely bamboozled by the people around him who have led him down a path that pales in comparison to the deal you negotiated.

[Ambassador Wendy Sherman]

I think Lindsey Graham, in the quote that you showed, said it exactly right. It makes you wonder why we went down this road to begin with, because we are in a place that is much tougher. Look, negotiating with Iran is very difficult. They are tough guys, all guys, and they are the largest state sponsor of terrorism.

[Nicole Wallace]

They aren't.

[Ambassador Wendy Sherman]

This isn't a regime any of us want. And the president started all this by saying he'd have the back of the backs of the Iranian people. That's gone by the wayside. The president, ostensibly of Iran, started to restore the Internet today to give people access to. But they've been using VPNs to figure out what's going on in the world. But the lives for Iranian people are worse, not better, than when this all started.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me. Let me just. For close viewers, I'll share what Stephen Chung, the White House spokesperson, had to say in response to Mike Pompeo. Mike Pompeo has no idea what the F he's talking about. He should shut his stupid mouth and leave the real work to the professionals. He's not ridden to anything that's happening, so how would he know? With friends like that, I'm not sure who needs enemies. Tom Nichols.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, that's some top notch communicating from the communications director right there.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm like 10 years retired and I could have done better than that.

[Tom Nichols]

Guy's really on top of his game. And as you know, as I said and when I wrote this was a little glimpse into what I think is kind of sweaty panic inside the White House that, you know, this is going, this is all going south on us, our own allies, our own most sycophantic supporters. I mean, when you're getting scored on by Lindsey Graham, that that's got a sting. But, you know, there are two. I'll take a whack at the thing you asked Ambassador Sherman. You know, what were they thinking? I, I think two things are clear. One is that Donald Trump thought this would be a war that would bring him glory. I think that's what he was thinking. I shall be the liberator of Iran. And I think the second thing they were thinking is this regime will collapse. And I think everything we've been going through for the past two months, all of these operational successes that aren't amounting to a strategic effect are all because once the regime didn't collapse, you weren't going to get all the other stuff you wanted. The regime collapsed overnight and a more compliant regime had come into power. You'd say, okay, now we're going to talk about terrorism. Now we're going to talk about the strait, now we're going to talk about nuclear stuff. But once that didn't happen, they didn't know what to do and they still don't know what to do. And I think what you're seeing now is the kind again, this kind of panicky, sweaty surge for a face saving exit. I think that's, you know, this, I mean, it's forcing CENTCOM into saying things like, well, these were self defense strikes. These are obviously meant to be demonstrative. They're meant to show that we can still hit Iran. But to what end? What is it they think they're going to get out of this now that the regime is obviously going to stay. The Iranian people have been abandoned and now, you know, our work as ambassador just said worse off than they were. The notional idea that, that the Iranians could choke off the Strait of Hormuz is now a reality and we've spent billions of dollars and a lot of our weapon stocks. And for what? Because Donald Trump got it into his head that somehow there would be a statue of him, you know, and that they, that we'd be greeted as liberators and there'd be, they'd be throwing rose petals in front of him. Well, that didn't happen. So I, I just don't, I, I, the part that still mystifies me is what do they think they're going to get out of some deal with Iran at this point as long as the regime is still in place?

[Nicole Wallace]

See, you're all sort of staring at what's actually in front of us. I'm back in 2016, wondering what Republicans thought they were going to get with this guy. And so this is the natural end to going along with everything that they knew was wrong, going ahead with all of the moves that they knew were dangerous, confirming people like Pete Hegseth and Tulsi Gabbard, people that they opposed, people that they knew were not worthy of leading the Pentagon, of leading the intelligence agencies. And so I want to play a little bit more. This is the. Sarah Palin once used the word unshackled to describe how she felt when she didn't have any campaign advisors. Tom Tillis seems to be unshackled from having to pretend that any of this is normal. Let me show you what he had to say about Pete Hegseth.

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Look, we were told about 11 weeks ago by Hegseth and the Department of Defense that they had obliterated Iran's defenses and it was just a matter of time before we had the nuclear material. Now we're talking about a posture where we may accept the nuclear material remaining in Iran, how does that make sense at all? Also, a 60 day ceasefire and expecting that they're going to clear the Strait of Hormuz before the terms of the deal are established also seems questionable to me. There are a lot of things that need to be explained.

[Tom Nichols]

It is unclear as of now that the Trump administration is going to be able to get a better deal than Obama got without even having to fire a shot. You just mentioned Secretary Hegseth. Do you think the president has been advised well by Secretary Hegseth on this point?

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No, I actually, if you take a look at the assessment that Hegseth gave, at the end of the day, regardless of who collected the information, Hegseth owns it. By being Secretary of Defense. When you tell the president that you have obliterated Iran and you're in a position to pretty much dictate terms. And now you see what we have. When you see Hegseth pull back on operations in Poland, when Ukraine, when Russia is raping, killing, murdering, torturing countless people in Ukraine, when you see these mistakes made by Hegseth, actually, I think with all these mistakes in total, it's beginning to make Kristine Ulm look like a five star recruitment.

[Nicole Wallace]

Tom Nichols, what, what do we know about Hegseth that we didn't know from the Signal Group chat, that we didn't know from his abysmal performance during his confirmation hearings, that we didn't know from the ludicrous things he said when he got Donald Trump to go around the military's own justice system. I mean, I love what Thom Tillis is saying, but there's no new information out there about Pete Texas.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, there's, I mean, good for Senator Tillis. I'm glad he's saying it, but this definitely has the, you know, the aura of we're all looking for the guy who did this kind of, kind of vibe, you know, of. Gosh, if had we only known. Of course, you shouldn't have taken a talk show host and put him in charge of the most powerful military in the world. The world and the biggest bureaucracy in the United States. Of course, you shouldn't have taken a guy who's an obvious sycophant who was going to say anything the President wanted to hear and place him in the position of being an advisor to, who really has to be someone willing to speak truth to power at key moments. I mean, this, you can, you know, you can get away with a lot with an incompetent, with, you know, incompetent, lesser cabinet departments. I mean, if the Secretary of Housing or the Secretary of Agriculture tells the President something wrong, that's not an existential mistake. When the Secretary of Defense is telling you to put American lives and prestige and strategic, our strategic position on the line in the world, you want somebody who's had more experience with this than sitting on a couch at Fox. So there was, there is no surprise here. But also, you know, let's be a little bit fair to Pete Hegseth. The president decided he wanted to do this. Netanyahu told him it would go great. Other people told him it would go great. He was determined to do it. You know, there was not going to be any swaying him when he was still on the sugar buzz from Venezuela and other operations. So, you know, in a way, the, the real question is, could anyone have talked him out of this? And I think the answer is probably no. And I think right now, you know, who's the person in the room saying, listen, you have to get out of this a 60 day ceasefire. I mean, let's think about that for a moment. Are we really saying that if we don't get good terms from the Iranians that the president is going to start another, is going to restart a major war in the Middle east on what, Labor Day, you know, just before an election? Good, good luck with that. I think the Iranians probably don't take that very seriously. And I don't think, you know, others do as well. I think that's probably why people like Senator Wicker and others are just panicking about hearing that because they're, they've, they're in a box now and the only people can get out of it are, are the, is, is the White House. And they've got to make that decision.

[Nicole Wallace]

A box of their own making. No one's going anywhere. And after the break, Ben Rose will join the conversation as well. Also ahead for us today, South Carolina Republicans saying no thank you to Donald Trump and his administration with a rather unexpected rejection of the White House's all out pressure campaign to redistrict congressional seats there. Plus, has Trump's all out transformation and weaponization of the Justice Department and obsession with retribution finally tested his own party? We'll look at just how far he's gone outside of what anyone thinks they signed up for. And later, ICE agents sparred with protesters at an immigration detention center in New Jersey. We'll talk to a lawmaker who was there when the chaos and violence unfolded. All those stories and much more. And deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Joining us at the table, former deputy national security advisor to President Obama, now co host of Pod, Save the World contributor Ben Rhodes. He worked with Ambassador Sherman on the JCPOA and his brand new book, all we say is out today. He's also my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. I said to you in the break when you sat down, you're having a big news cycle. You're in the attack from Mike Pompeo, as is Ambassador Sherman. I already read it to her. You get smeared. I think it's an attempt to dunk on Trump by dunking on you guys, but it just ends up coming out making Trump sound weaker than all of you, so it doesn't really land. And I think Trump also posted a picture of you in a jumpsuit, something that you see you're having a big news cycle.

[Ben Rhodes]

He reprised me in an orange jumpsuit along with President Obama and some of our other colleagues. I guess, you know, we're going to prison. Yeah, yeah. Mike Pompeo is, you know, taking shots at.

[Nicole Wallace]

They're suddenly very triggered by the success.

[Ben Rhodes]

Maybe they know the book is coming out and they're just trying to give me some publicity. But look, I think on the Iran piece of it, part of what's happening is they have walked this entire country and the entire global economy down a dead end by doing exactly what we warned during the debate over the jcpoa. We said there are two ways of solving this problem. One is with military action, but that creates all these risks and may not even solve the nuclear problem because unless you're willing to put ground troops in, you cannot bomb a nuclear program out of existence. As we've learned, the best thing you can do and the only thing you can do is an agreement where you don't get everything you want, but you get the best possible outcome. And they are now in a place where Trump cannot extricate himself from this situation without failing to achieve the maximalist objectives he set. And everybody can see it, and he can't spin his way through it. He can't lie his way through it, because people see the gas prices, people know the nuclear material is still in Iran. People around the world know exactly the catastrophe he's created with this war. And the Iranians have all the leverage right now because they don't care about suffering economic blockades. They're willing to have their people suffer. And here we are.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is interesting to me is that somehow Marco Rubio gets carved out as a quasi acceptable character in this story of clear foreign policy failure when he actually holds two votes. Right. He's both the National Security Adviser and the Secretary of State. The idea that you can't bomb your way to eliminating their nuclear program was a. I quote Rumsfeld here, a known. Known.

[Tom Nichols]

Yes.

[Nicole Wallace]

And it seemed knowable, if you had the kind of access to intelligence that Rubio has, that you couldn't bomb your way to destroying their missile programs indefinitely. Which, when Marco Rubio went to Capitol Hill, he said that was the objective of the war. Rubio never said it was about what Trump tweeted about, quote, help us on the way. But they've achieved none of those three things. They did not annihilate their missile program, they did not destroy their nuclear program, and they did not help the people that were in the street. What exists in terms of holding them accountable?

[Ben Rhodes]

I think you're making a very important point that we cannot grade these people on this absurd curve where just because Marco Rubio can string together sentences in a way that Pete Hegseth cannot, that he somehow absolved, as National Security Advisor, he's responsible for coordinating policymaking. And let's just look at some of the things that happened. Wendy and I were in war games. There's never been a war game with Iran where they didn't close the Strait of Hormuz. How did he not warn Donald Trump that that was going to happen? How did they appear surprised that that happened? Then he admitted he tried to do these post facto rationalizations for the war because what Trump said was gonna happen didn't happen. The regime didn't collapse, the people didn't rise up. The nuclear program was not obliterated. None of those things were true. So then let's look at what Rubio would point out. Nicole, he liked to point out that they destroyed the Iranian navy. Something Hex says. Well, they don't need, I don't know, like, aircraft carriers, to close the straightforward moves. They clearly have enough of a navy, even if it's just speedboats and drones, to shut down 20% of the world's fossil fuel. He talked about destroying their ballistic missile capability. Well, we know from reports that they have over 70% of their ballistic missile capability. So what what we spent, I think the price tag is going to be in the hundreds of billions of dollars. What do we have to show for this other than an Iran that is in a stronger position because of the Strait of Hormuz than they were before? And lastly, Rubio is the Secretary of State of the United States of America. How well have we done coordinating with allies in this whole enterprise? The Gulf states, many of them were surprised and outraged by this war that has put their existential security and economic interests at risk. The European allies and the Asian allies are suffering shortages because of what's happened. So just to take Rubio, the policy coordination, the advice of the president, and the coordination with the allies has been catastrophic.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. I mean, Ambassador Sherman, one of the things that. That kind of reveals itself in our politics. And I have to say, obviously I worked in the Bush administration, and every time voters rendered judgments about how they felt about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, they were negative. When voters went to the polls in 06 and 08, they rejected people who were for those deeply unpopular wars. And sometimes that's all voters can do, right, is go and vote the next opportunity they have. What voters are going to have to consider this time is whether or not just the prices they're paying and that we're in a worse position. But voters also have feelings, usually about being pushed apart from our allies. And I feel like we, me, not any of you, don't pay enough attention to how much further in a hole we are now with our allies, totally estranged from our European allies, but also distanced from some of our most reliable allies in the region. Will you talk about what you hear from your sources in that area?

[Ambassador Wendy Sherman]

Sure. We have over 100 posts where there is no ambassador that has been confirmed by the U.S. senate. So when we have problems in the world, let's take Ebola, which Americans are concerned about. The reason we helped in the past was because we are a good people and we believe it's wonderful and a humanitarian purpose to help. But we did so because we didn't want people to get on airplanes and bring Ebola to the United States. And so taking apart all of the apparatus, withdrawing from the who not Having any surveillance left in Central Africa really hurts not only the people in Africa, but hurts us, hurts everybody in our ability to deal with health risk. We have heard reports that we're pulling troops out of Europe. Well, I don't think the House is going to like that very much. They are ostensibly have an ndaa, a National Defense Authorization bill that says don't touch troops in Europe, don't trust touch troops in Korea. And as was pointed out earlier in this discussion, Hexseth said he was going to pull troops out of Poland, the country that is probably really at risk by what Putin is doing in Ukraine. And then of course, the president got all concerned and put the troops back in. Where we are, Nicole, I think is with country and our people like strength and our military is fantastic. But if all of your policy is military first, military first, military first, and you see diplomacy and alliance building as weakness, you're inevitably undercutting our own capacity and our own strength to lead in a way that helps the American people. And that's what America first really should be about, making sure that we pay attention to the needs of the people in our country. And it's not just oil, it's fertilizer, it's helium, it's magnets, it's lots of other things that come through the Strait of Hormuz that now we have undermined. And, and I think yes, Americans want strength, they want purpose, but they want common sense. And everybody's looking at this and they're not seeing any common sense.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I don't know what Mike Pompeo was thinking. You were all much more polite than Stephen Chung, but take that. Ambassador Wendy Sherman, Tom Nichols, thank you so much for starting us off today. Ben sticks around a little bit longer after the break. Early voting is underway today in the state of South Carolina with thousands of ballots already cast as lawmakers, there are simultaneously deal a surprising rebuke to Donald Trump. We'll tell you about it next.

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[Tom Nichols]

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[Nicole Wallace]

afternoon, a stunning rejection of Donald Trump's redistricting zeal by Senate Republicans in South Carolina. They joined Democrats there to strike down their own party's measure to advance a map to that likely would have squeezed out the state's only Democratic leaning district. That seat is represented by Congressman Jim Clyburn, who surged polling locations today with other Democrats on the first day of early voting who were there standing on very, very long lines before that GOP rejection today and didn't even know if that primary ballot that they cast would count. Here's what Congressman Clyburn has said about the effort

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to the 29% of African Americans in South Carolina, the 43% of Democratic voters in South Carolina, irrespective of your presence, you are not deserving of a single member of Congress. Of the seven that we have, this White House says to hell with the process, to hell with the Constitution. Shame, shame, just do what we want done. And that's what has us here today.

[Nicole Wallace]

Joining our coverage, political analyst, the former Senator Claire McCaskill's here, Ben still with me. So, Claire, this is significant and this counts as sort of a man bites dog story because Republicans did not fall in line. Just talk about a, why that's news and b, what that means.

[Claire McCaskill]

Well, first of all, they realized that if they carve this district up, some of the other districts become less certain for the Republican Party. I mean, that's what's being left out of this conversation. Too often on redistricting, when you carve up a heavily Democratic district, those Democrats go somewhere. They don't disappear. They go into districts where now they have a bigger piece of the pie. And yeah, if Trump wins a district by 25 or 30, then they can afford to give up five or six points. But when Trump wins a district by 10 and you push more Democrats into that district, they've got a problem. And they also realized by the number of people who are showing up to vote today, they did a gut check, those Republican members of the Senate in South Carolina, and they said, you know what, if we do this, it is going to be very politically unpopular in South Carolina. They knew it wasn't right. They knew it wasn't the right thing to do. So good on them for having the guts to do it. Because obviously, Trump has wreaked vengeance on a number of people who have defied him, and I'm sure some of them will now be on his list.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claire, let me play some of those South Carolina voters today with my colleague Alex Tabett. This current administration has already demonstrated that they are willing to strip rights and privileges that we have as citizens for

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their own personal gain.

[Nicole Wallace]

So it's important that I'm here in order to make sure I'm on the right side of history and my vote

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is cast to demonstrate that I do

[Nicole Wallace]

not agree with what's happening. Yes, sir.

[Tom Nichols]

I talked to the Republican state representative who was behind this map, one of the co sponsors, he told me race

[Ben Rhodes]

had nothing to do with this, or he did.

[Nicole Wallace]

They always say that we know better. We live it every day, every day. So, you know, it's easy for someone to say that who doesn't live it, but we live that every day. Voters are very smart, Claire, and they always figure out what's going on. And the turnout that we've seen in every election that's happened since Donald Trump returned to the presidency tells an incredible story of rejection of every facet of his agenda.

[Claire McCaskill]

And I do think that those voters were speaking truth for a whole lot of Americans. I don't think the Republican Party fully realizes the strength of the black vote in the United States of America. And they underestimate how much they get what's going on. I mean, you don't wipe out Emmanuel Cleaver and Jim Clyburn and try to take out all the some of the most senior and respected black political leaders in this country. You don't wipe out their districts and think people aren't going to figure out what you're doing. I mean, it's just insulting to those black voters. It's insulting to those black officeholders, and it's certainly insulting to the party that I belong to, which is proud to work hard and gain the trust and support of black voters. So I do think that we will see turnout this year at a level we've not seen for midterms in a long time just because of what they're trying to do.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring Ben into this conversation to sneak in a quick break before I do that. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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FOREIGN.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Claire and Ben. So Ben Trump does authoritarian stuff that gets covered as politics, but when he actually does politics, he isn't very good at it. And the Paxton endorsement is a perfect example. I mean, he has a much harder time prevailing against Talarico. I think Talarico is ahead of both Cornyn and Paxton, but certainly Paxton fares worse than Cornyn.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I mean, he, he does politics on his side. Right. And so he is developed the theory of politics that works to give him dictatorial control of the Republican Party, which is he's going to, you know, punish anyone that crosses him. But that's not the right strategy to actually win elections against Democrats. It either empowers someone like Paxson, who is a scandal ridden mess, who is a perfect contrast to James Talarico and his kind of earnest faith and desire to move this state and country in a different direction, or, you know, he undermines Cornyn if he somehow ekes through because, you know, he doesn't look like he has the MAGA imprimantur, you know, I think. But what we're seeing, it's kind of like the last gasp of a MAGA midterm election where people are kind of going along with Trump to save their skin, even though, you know, the camera's beginning to look past Trump. Talarico is the perfect person to step into that because he's young. He's going to be around for a long time after Donald Trump. If you want to make a bet on the future of this country, it's not going to be on Paxson or John Cornyn for that matter. It's going to be on James Tall, who's telling a different story about why he's in politics, connecting dots for people about faith and how we treat each other in this country. And Donald Trump is not going to be helpful at all. If anything, all he's going to do is ensure that they spend more money in that race to try to elect PAX in and make it more likely that he loses.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like Talarico's best outcome is for Paxton to, is to run against Paxton. And I wonder, I mean, Claire, I think I shared my skepticism about the unshackled Republicans. They have been saying things privately, for 10 years that are harsher about Donald Trump than I have. They've just said them in encrypted message apps and not when the cameras are on them. But Donald Trump is creating sort of an army of Republicans with no more Fs to give, who may be a real thorn in his side.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah. If you count up the folks who are retiring, like Tillis and, and, and others. And then, then you've got somebody like Cassidy who's like, okay, you want to dance? From now until the end of the year, I'm happy to dance. And, and by the way, can I just tell you how furious the Republicans are in the United States Senate? I mean, they're furious. They're furious about the ballroom, they're furious about the billion dollar.

[Nicole Wallace]

Why don't they do something? Why don't they impeach him? I mean, that's ridiculous. I'll give them a pillow to punch or scream into. I mean, that's pathetic, Claire. It is.

[Claire McCaskill]

It is totally pathetic. But I'm telling you, they're mad. And here's what's going to happen. I think, I think if Paxton wins, they're going to say to Trump, you broke it, you own it. Keep in mind, the Republicans have spent 90 million on this primary. That is by far a record for a primary in a U.S. senate race. Nothing comes close. So now we're talking about probably another 250 million that would have to be raised and spent in order to, for Cornyn or Paxton to win. And so I think the Republicans in the Senate are going to say to Trump, you got that 300 million sitting in your accounts. Why don't you use it to try to save Paxton? Because I don't think some of the loyal donors to Cornyn, and trust me, he's got major big donors in this country that are loyal to Cornyn. I don't think they're going to be excited about helping Paxton if he wins this primary tonight.

[Nicole Wallace]

But, Claire, that all sounds so normal. Like, are they none of them worried that the President is having his third physical in 13 months or has unexplained bruises on. I mean, if I were advising Republicans, which I haven't done for a decade, I would tell them to put money into Talarico's race, get Trump impeached, and roll the dice on J.D. vance for the next two years.

[Claire McCaskill]

Well, listen, here's where you and I agree. The Republicans in the United States Senate are cowards. They have lost their moral compass. They have no spying. They are absolutely showing complete fealty to a guy they know is terrible for our country. No excuse. I'm just telling you, they're still mad because of the way he's handled these issues for them politically, because they believe he's going to cost them the majority.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, well, he is. And I guess what I would say, Ben, is there's still time to do something. Like, they still have agency.

[Ben Rhodes]

They do have agency. I mean, it was interesting you mentioned my book, which I had to go back in history, 250 years of American history. And one of the things that I felt so acutely is the presentism that people have right now. Like Trump is permanent. Like we're never gonna get out of it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Totally.

[Ben Rhodes]

Like, when in fact, history is long.

[Nicole Wallace]

People bouncing ball.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's a bouncing ball. We make arguments. We put those arguments into speeches that I talked about, into political storytelling. And we're just trapped. The Republicans more than anybody, but I think it's infected our body politic that we can't do anything about this. We're trapped with Trump. He's just there. We can't do anything about it.

[Ambassador Wendy Sherman]

Yes, you can.

[Ben Rhodes]

But you have votes in Congress, the

[Nicole Wallace]

Republicans, the law firms, the universe. Yes. It's like that movie where I think it's called Memento, where he forgets everything every night and so he starts tattooing everything. They like, they go to bed every night thinking this is forever when this is literally. You could run a. We should run a countdown clock. It will end in a matter of days, not years.

[Ben Rhodes]

It will end. This is his last midterm election as president, United States. A new presidential campaign is going to begin in a few months. And what was it all for? You know, I mean, going back and looking at people who risked everything, risked their lives sometimes to change this country. These people won't even risk, like, a mean true social post from Donald Trump or God forbid, I might lose a primary. Something has to be bigger than that. And they're waking up to that reality far, far too late.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claire McCaskill. I'm sorry for feeling animated about the message and the messenger. I love you, my friend.

[Claire McCaskill]

Definitely get it.

[Nicole Wallace]

I know, I know. My bad. Benrose, thank you for being here. Congratulations on the book. Mostly thank you for being my guest. To talk about all we say. It's amaz. I listened to our conversation, listening to you talking about the speeches, and then I went and read and listened to some of the speeches. It's a really important book and I'm really glad we got to talk about it. Coming up next for us, no. Can you see this? That is not a roller coaster on your screen being built right now on the lawn of the White House. We'll tell you what it actually is, even though, I don't know, maybe a roller coaster is better than what it actually is. I'll let you think about it over the next two minutes. We'll be right back. This is a live picture of the White House right now where you see what looks like a roller coaster. And for what we've been talking about, maybe that's the best case scenario to turn the White House into one of those summer pop up carnivals. But it's actually a temporary stadium being erected on the south lawn of the White House. It is the construction of an octagon shaped fighting ring being built for the UFC Freedom 250 MMA event, which will be held right there on the White house grounds on June 14. That event is set to take place on Donald Trump's 80th birthday. You can't make this up. Ahead of that milestone, Trump today paid a visit to Walter Reed Medical Center, I guess to make sure he's ready for the fight. White House is describing it as, quote, routine annual dental and medical assessments. It is Donald Trump's third documented physical examination at Walter Reed in 13 months. And it is fueling more questions about Donald Trump's physical and mental wellness. A recent survey found. Now just 40% of Americans think Trump actually possesses the mental sharpness to serve effectively as the country's president. That's down from 40% last September. And just 44% of all Americans think Donald Trump is in good enough physical health to serve as president effectively. That is down from 54% last September. After the break, has Donald Trump's nearly $1.8 billion slush fund finally pushed the Republican Party too far? We'll take a quick break and then try to answer that.

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