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- [00:00]
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- [00:49]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin
Tell it to My Face if that's what you believe, tell it to me today. Tell the world why you believe I deserve to be assaulted from behind, have six ribs, bro, and a damaged lung. Tell me to my face why you think I deserved it. And while you're at it, explain to the American public why they should trust a man with anger issues to set the proper example for ICE and Border Patrol agents.
- [01:12]
Mark Wayne Mullen
You have spent millions of dollars in my campaigns against me because we just don't get along. However, sir, that doesn't keep me at all from doing my job.
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Nicole Wallace
Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. So that's how it started. Quote Tell it to my face From Mark Wayne Mullen Mark Wayne Mullen is Donald Trump's chosen successor for soon to be former DHS secretary, the self described shooter killer of puppies, Kristi Ngn. The new guy was today on the receiving end of some difficult questions from his fellow Republicans in the Senate, the Homeland Security Committee, at least some members of the Homeland Security Committee pressed him on a number of issues associated with with that agency, the conduct of ICE officers, the role of sanctuary cities and the changes he would make at dhs. In large part, Mullen's responses were a departure from his more combative style of talking and lawmaking. His answers, or in some cases his non answers, were illuminating as well. For instance, in response to factual questions about who won the 2020 election posed by Senator Alyssa Slotkin, Mullen spat back what we've come to understand is the boilerplate things happen. The MAGA approved answer President Joe Biden was sworn into office, but Senator Slotkin didn't let him off the hook. She followed up with what is an increasingly valid concern on the part of the American people.
- [02:38]
Senator Chris Murphy
Watch if you are Secretary of Homeland Security, do you feel you have the authority to put uniformed officers at polling locations in 2026.
- [02:49]
Mark Wayne Mullen
Ma', am, we. We said this in your office. The only reason why my officers would be there, if there was a specific threat for them to be there, not for intimidation. And I.
- [02:56]
Senator Chris Murphy
Even though we didn't need it During World War II, we didn't need it during Vietnam or the War on terror, we never had to put uniform military there. Now, you feel that there's going to be a reason, that there's going to be an armed threat to the United States that you.
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Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
No, ma'.
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Mark Wayne Mullen (continued)
Am.
- [03:11]
Mark Wayne Mullen
I can't sit there and guarantee hypothetically, of what threat would be. Not. I'm not putting military. That's not within my uniformed.
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Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
Sorry, uniformed officers.
- [03:18]
Mark Wayne Mullen
But if there is a threat, a specific threat, say it's in a Jewish community and there is a threat that's specific to that, to that polling area, then we will work with local law enforcement. There will be a reason for us to be there, and it'll be known why we're there.
- [03:33]
Senator Chris Murphy
I think the reason you're here and not Kristi Noem is because Americans trust their local law enforcement now way more than they trust ice. So I would just say, if we ever get to the point where you are being asked to put armed ICE officers at polling locations, we have lost the plot as a country. We have fundamentally lost it. And until I hear someone tell me that this man, President Trump, will actually allow us to have a free and fair election, there is zero trust here. And I cannot trust that he won't try and steal it again. I yield back.
- [04:09]
Nicole Wallace
A vital message, a vital line of questioning at a vital time for someone who's expected to lead, for better or for worse, a vital American agency. That's where we begin the hour with Democratic Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan. She's a member of both the Homeland Security and Armed Services Committees. Senator, thank you for being here and thank you for your line of questioning about our elections. Did you. What did you hear from him on that question?
- [04:35]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
Well, look, I mean, I think. I think he. That position, as I said in the hearing of Secretary of Homeland Security is quite literally like, at the fulcrum of some major issues we're dealing with as Americans. The role of law enforcement and ICE in our streets, and then the role of law enforcement in our elections and around our polling locations and on both line of questioning, it didn't get there. Right. And so what I heard from him, both in his inability to just say that Joe Biden won the election in 2020 you know, and that fear of Donald Trump, which they all live under like a veil, that did not give me confidence that if push comes to shove, if he's told to go put ICE officers at polling locations or collect ballots or be involved in something untoward around our elections, that he would say no. Right? In fact, it was the opposite. It demonstrated that he's just going to salute and do whatever President Trump tells him to do. And the president has been clear from the State of the Union. He basically said, if my party loses in November, the election was rigged. So it didn't give me confidence.
- [05:42]
Nicole Wallace
Are you a no vote?
- [05:44]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
I am a no vote. I think after what I heard today, I try to give every nominee an objective opportunity. He came to my office yesterday. I previewed these issues and how concerned I was, and gave him the opportunity to say in front of the world, you know, you are going to be in charge of ice. Tell me right now the specific reforms you are allowed to go into law, to reform ice, to just be like your local police force in Oklahoma, where you're from. He could not lay that out. And then on elections, as we just heard, he could not, not rule out that armed ICE agents could be deployed to the polls and could not say with a straight face that he believes Joe Biden actually won the election. Just the free and fair prosecution of our elections.
- [06:28]
Nicole Wallace
I'm surprised that no Republicans asked him about the civil liberties violations that DHS specifically is engaged in in spying on protesters, many of them American citizens. Do you. Are there any conversations happening in private with Republicans about any of the concerns the American people have about dh?
- [06:47]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
You know, what's really interesting is I think the conversation is happening among Republicans, like, on the ground. In my state, in Michigan, I have Republican friends and colleagues who voted for Donald Trump who will say, you know what? I supported the president's goals on immigration. I voted for that, but I didn't vote for this. The stuff I'm seeing with my own eyes in Minneapolis, the shooting of American citizens, the going into a home without a judicial warrant, they'll say to me, look, I'm a Trump supporter, but I do not believe in giving away your amendment, American rights, just to enforce immigration. And a lot of them will now start to say, and by the way, I don't like that Trump's overplaying it, because I'm scared that if Democrats come into power, they'll just do the exact same thing. Those conversations are happening in our states at home, but it hasn't broken through the fear veil that exists Here among my Republican colleagues, they're just not willing to just be straight on something. So the people who are the biggest proponents of civil liberties on the Republican side in, you know, when Joe Biden's president or when Barack Obama's president president are like silent as the grave during the Trump administration because they are scared to speak out. And I think that tells you volumes about their control in their party.
- [08:01]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, to your point about what you're hearing in your state, there's a 25 point swing in Donald Trump's approval on immigration. I mean, Kristi Noem and Donald Trump have swung their party 25 points from their perspective in the wrong direction on the issue of immigration. What opportunity does that present to Democrats to run on the things that are popular, the deportation of adjudicated violent criminals who are in the country illegally or a more orderly asylum? I mean, does it, are there conversations happening among Democrats about how to grab the parts that President Obama seemed to carry out so effectively that Republicans have totally abandoned in favor of the violent apprehensions we're seeing?
- [08:46]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
Yeah, I mean, look, I think there's a lot of people on the Democratic side who feel like, you know, part of the reason they really lost the election was because we didn't have an immigration policy that you could explain to a normal person. Right. Every country gets to control its borders and decide who's coming in. And I think no matter what, no matter how low an approval rating can go for Donald Trump, it's not enough just to point at Donald Trump and say he's bad. It's not enough. You need to actually have an affirmative positive plan that you believe in. You need to explain to the American public what we're going to do differently. And for me, that means not just having a deportation plan, but actually having a plan on legal immigration, which we desperately need in this country. So I think whether you see it coming out of individual senators or, you know, elected officials, certainly after we get through the midterms, you're going to see a very busy primary on the Democratic side. And if people don't have those affirmative plans on immigration and other things, frankly, like, they don't deserve people's vote. Right. It's not enough to just point at Donald Trump. And a lot of Democrats are stuck in that gear.
- [09:50]
Nicole Wallace
How has the war in Iran changed the feeling in your state about Donald Trump?
- [09:56]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
Yeah, so it's interesting because, you know, the president has really become a foreign policy president. He's taken military action in his first year in seven countries, two oceans, more than Any single president in American history. So he's really kind of gotten into a taste of that. But to be honest, a lot of those foreign engagements have largely gone unnoticed or sort of. The American people don't feel it in their bones, in their daily lives. You know, Venezuela, you know, we have the most powerful military in the world. It's over in a minute. People stop talking about it three days later. It doesn't affect their pocketbook. Same thing with the engagement back in June on Iran the first time around. This is different. The last thing I saw when I left to fly back to Washington from Michigan was a 90 minute line for gas at Costco because it's so much cheaper at a Costco than it is at a normal gas station. It's gone up like 15 cents every day and 60 cents in one day. It's almost $4 in places in Michigan, which for us is a lot. They're feeling it in their pocketbooks. The farmers, right, Farmers are about to hit planting season. Fertilizer comes through the Persian Gulf. They can't get that. They're worried about that and saying that openly. So I think the difference between this one is A, people are feeling it in their pocketbook and B, they can tell. You don't have to be a CIA analyst to know that we are not like, like declaring victory and leaving. Right now. We're sending Marines in. We're asking for help from allies who are turning us down. Like the, the, the when, when you're ending a war. People are leaving theater now. They're being brought in more and more because the Iranians have a veto over the Persian Gulf and who travels in it right now? So I think that this is the first war that the President has started where people are feeling it in their pocketbooks. He can't explain why we went in to begin with and therefore can't explain how we're going to get out of it.
- [11:51]
Nicole Wallace
Wall Street Journal yesterday broke a story about the extensive assistance Russia is offering Iran. Donald Trump has publicly been nicer to Putin and Russia than any other world leader that I can think of in the 10 years of covering him on a daily basis. Do you see anything from your perch that concerns you about Russia's role? And are there talks with the White House to sort of yank Donald Trump out of his at least public flattery and complacency about the threat Russia poses?
- [12:26]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
Yeah, look, I think most people cannot understand the weird bromance that the President has with Vladimir Putin for a long time. And certainly there's a lot of disagreement on how he's handling Ukraine and leaving them dangling there. He rolls out the red carpet for Putin. All of that has been sort of a weird question mark for a long time. I think what's different is that, you know, and it's now out in press that the Russians are helping to target US Forces, US Ships, US aircraft. And, you know, if the Russians are helping to kill American soldiers, I hope we can agree, Democrat and Republican, that this has crossed a Rubicon, that that can't go unanswered and that we can't accept that. Right. That is just a new chapter in our history with Russia. And when I hear that the President isn't raising it on phone calls or Steve Witkoff says, like, oh, no, I trust Putin when he says that he's not doing that. It is just. It kind of blows the mind certainly of a Cold War kid. I gotta tell you. These are not our friends. These are not good people. And now they're targeting and killing people, and they're coming home in coffins, right? Potentially. So I think that's number one. That's a cross Rubicon. I would also flag the two other trends that I think are really important and they're connected. One is like, whole new chapter in the use of drones in American warfare.
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Nicole Wallace
Right?
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Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
They're Iranians, with these cheap drones, are undercutting our missile defense assets. They're killing American forces, and we are not prepared for that threat. And we're now getting assistance from Ukraine.
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Nicole Wallace
Right.
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Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
The United States of America needs help from another country to figure out how to counter that. That's a new world. And they're shooting down our drones, our more expensive drones. Number three, it turns out when you punch allies and partners in the face, they don't come to help you in things.
- [14:11]
Nicole Wallace
Okay?
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Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
This is a concrete example of the way he's treated our allies and partners. Alienating them has concrete safety implications for us. Persian Gulf, right? We need ships to be able to go back and forth in the Persian Gulf so that we can move oil and a whole bunch of other things. Right now, nothing's moving. No one's insuring those ships. And we're not giving them military escort. Iran is shooting at them, mining the Persian Gulf, potentially. We're asking for help. And a whole lot of countries are either saying no, or we'll think about it and get back to you. The most concrete thing I can show you, to tell you is about the issue of, like, minesweepers, okay? These ships that detect mines in the Persian Gulfs, that the Iranians lay. The United States of America has four. We've outsourced the creating of those ships, the building of those ships to other countries. So the NATO countries have over 100 minesweepers. We need them. We would need them. So when we punch our allies in the face and they're reluctant to bring their valuable assets to the fight, then we're left to do it on our own and it makes us less safe and have less capability. That's a concrete way that screwing partners and allies hurts America.
- [15:24]
Nicole Wallace
And who could have predicted that right when he was punching them in the face? I think you did. Senator Eliza Slotkin, thank you for starting us off today and for your time. Joining me at the table, former DHS Chief of Staff during Trump's first term. Myles Taylor's back. Also back with us, Paul Rykoff. He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast and the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. I mean, so much there, but just on this issue of who needs allies? We do.
- [15:51]
Paul Rykoff
Yeah, I thought that was strong. I mean, that's the kind of message that Democrats need to convey and to also focus on offering an alternative plan, whether it's on DHS and Mullen or Iran. So I just want to note that I thought that was really strong from her and I think folks are going to respect.
- [16:05]
Nicole Wallace
You were never positive and you were like two for two. You're like, what are you eating for breakfast?
- [16:09]
Paul Rykoff
I call it like I see it, right? And I think it's really, really important. And she's calling like she sees it, right? I mean, half of Denmark considers us an adversary right now. We need our allies, we need our friends. Especially when you're in a bar fight. And we are in a bar fight right now. Our troops are in a bar fight right now. And even more so, the saying has gone around a lot this week that when you kick over a hornet's nest, the hornets decide when it's over. And that's what we've done now. We've kicked over the hornet's nest in the Middle east and it's rippling across all elements. The one thing she didn't focus on is the human cost. Right. And Americans don't like seeing their sons and daughters come home in flag draped coffins. And they are seeing that and they don't like it. And it's really a unifying moment, as I talked to you about last week, where you've got people from all political backgrounds who don't like what's happening in Iran and now they're reminded today, they also don't like ice. It might have been off the radar for a minute or two, but now it's front and center. And these two things are incredibly unpopular and actually providing a unifying moment for Americans to come together and fight back against Trump.
- [17:03]
Nicole Wallace
Well, 65% of Americans oppose Trump. I mean, I think it's not creating a unified moment. I think Trump has given us a moment. I think it's sort of a unified message or some unified messengers that are saying something. That 60%, the 65, 35 split has existed for about eight weeks now, where Trump's approval rating sort of went below 40. And then because of Minneapolis and because of the war in Iran, it dropped lower. With gas prices soaring, I think they go up about 5 cents a day. Those numbers have only one direction to go.
- [17:36]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
Yeah.
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Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
And you know what? You're starting to see it in how this administration acts. They are acting so defensive and lashing out in briefings. And it shows you they are panicked. They know that they're failing this week. They've lost allies from the inside who were like true believers. You could not have constructed for me a more mega MAGA guy than Joe Kent. He quits this administration in protest and says it's over Iran. They better be worried about losing their base. They better be worried about people going away from maga, and they should be terrified about losing independence. And you know what? The President's not backfilling those with people that are gonna give Americans confidence. I mean, look at the Mark Wayne Mullen hearing today. I've worked with or for six secretaries of Homeland Security. And the one thing that I've learned that's critical for them to be effective in that job is they gotta have a conscience. And this guy today showed us the thing that we've learned over many years in Trump's Washington, which is that the sound of submission is silence. And as the senator just said, he was silent on the issues that Americans are most frustrated about. You gonna send guys with guns to the polling places? Pretty much silent. Are you gonna keep kicking down our doors without warrants? Pretty much silent. You gonna put up warehouses that are prisons in our communities without telling us? Pretty much silent. I don't know. I'm gonna have to dig into the details. That scares the American people. If he can't put folks in those jobs that will speak truth to power, then they will take these people out of power.
- [19:00]
Nicole Wallace
The other thing that I think people are not conditioned to seeing is a Republican who attacks a Trump appointee and Rand Paul was as opposed and really from a personal level as any Democrat today.
- [19:14]
Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
Well, and with Rand Paul, you gotta know it's both personal and political. I mean, you know, something about that exchange this morning, it made me sad to see that what we had to talk about with this nominee is his history of violence or his history of violent rhetoric. That's the thing that stands out about the guy that's named to be the head of the Department of Homeland Security. It was hilarious for a minute, but it was humiliating as a country for about 20 minutes there that we had to watch that, that that's where we've stooped to. And Rand Paul pointed that out, not to get a dig back at this guy, but to say, look, we're in the same party and I need to highlight your fundamental flaw here is your character. I go back to that.
- [19:56]
Nicole Wallace
And your lack of fitness.
- [19:57]
Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
Your lack of fitness. I go back to that issue of conscience is Rand Paul knows and I've disagreed with Rand Paul on a lot of homeland security issues. But Rand Paul recognizes that character is crucial. And his colleague, he says, all right,
- [20:10]
Nicole Wallace
both of you stick around. You've got some news of your own that we're going to get to. Also ahead to Miles Point, how Mark Wayne Mullen avoided questions about his own statements about mysterious overseas travel for which he had to grow a beard in the face of intense questioning about it. We'll tell you about that reporting. Also ahead for us, a stunning showdown in a New Jersey courtroom. A federal judge throwing a Trump Justice Department prosecutor out of his courtroom and ripping into the Trump administration over the chaos left behind after Alina Hava's unlawful appointment as U.S. attorney. What that judge is doing now. Bring you that story later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere
- [20:53]
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- [21:51]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
The IRS said I filed my return,
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- [21:57]
Senator Alyssa Slotkin (continued)
What do I do?
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- [22:07]
Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
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- [22:52]
Nicole Wallace
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen, Donald Trump's pick to be the Homeland Security Secretary, is facing a lot of questions over special assignments and other overseas trips he says he's made. Today, Mullen was asked point blank if he had ever traveled outside the United States for any reason other than vacation watch.
- [23:12]
Congressional Committee Member
Before your time in Congress, other than on vacations with your family, have you ever traveled to a foreign country?
- [23:21]
Mark Wayne Mullen
No.
- [23:22]
Congressional Committee Member
You've never traveled to a foreign country
- [23:24]
Mark Wayne Mullen
outside of vacation or mission work? No.
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Nicole Wallace
So we have reason to believe that is incorrect. A simple Google search confirms that, and Mullen later clarified his answer, saying he misunderstood that very clear question. But that's just the latest example of how weird he sounds and his evasiveness about disclosing special assignments he's undertaken. Earlier this month he said, quote, war is ugly and quote, it smells bad. Despite never having served in the military, Washington Post reports this quote. In past statements, Mullen has said he would never disclose the nature of his work abroad, seeding interviews with vague mentions of the experiences. Quote, there's another side of my bio that I don't ever talk about, quote, he said in 2023 in a podcast produced by the Senate Republican Conference. Like his people, I had to go do something overseas and when I went over there, I always let my beard grow out before end quote. Mark Wayne Mullen was given a chance today to clean that up or explain or disclose that travel, and he was anything but enthusiastic about the line of questioning.
- [24:41]
Congressional Committee Member
Quite frankly, as we've had these conversations, you have not been forthcoming with me or this committee. The story always seems to evolve to kind of change. We have to clear this up. We feel pretty strongly we have to understand exactly what this is, especially with all your public comments that have raised a lot of questions. We've checked. The SCIF is available. We're going to go in the. We would love to have you come to the SCIF and tell us exactly what you're talking about. I think that'll put my colleague's mind at peace. Would you be willing to go to the SCIF this afternoon and tell us the classified activities you're talking about?
- [25:16]
Mark Wayne Mullen (continued)
Sir?
- [25:17]
Mark Wayne Mullen
I think this committee made it very clear with the paperwork they gave me that I do not have to disclose my personal or not my official travel.
- [25:28]
Nicole Wallace
What? We're back with Miles and Paul. I mean, yes, you do have to disclose your official travel and your personal travel. I mean, to be a staffer in the executive branch, probably in Congress. I've never worked in Congress. You have to disclose all of that stuff. You have to disclose everything. And he's holding himself out as someone who, quote, knows the smell of war and had to, quote, grow a beard out before he went overseas. What?
- [25:55]
Paul Rykoff
Yeah. It's all so shady and just ridiculous, like he's some kind of secret agent and he's not allowed to tell us about it. I mean, he's also not too bright, as most of us have known who followed him over the years. And he's also, I think, profoundly, not just not qualified, but disqualified for this position. We need somebody to go into ice, which is unaccountable, unlawful, unconstitutional, overly aggressive, unprofessional. And we want to put. They want to put forward the guy who doesn't know that dueling is illegal and actually thinks it should still be legal. Right. And has threatened Rand Paul. You know, he was a cage fighter, and he loves to talk about that. And he acts like he's a veteran, he's a fake. And I think that this has exposed him. I think he's ridiculous. I think he's totally unqualified, and everyone should vote no. I mean, this is an example of where everyone should vote no, because ICE has got to be ripped down to its studs, and it needs a total culture change. This is the opposite of a culture change. This is like doubling down and putting steroids into the culture that already exists at ice. And it's bad for everybody.
- [26:52]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, this. I don't even know what to call it this story that he's told. We don't know if it's a lie or a truth, but he has had to grow a beard out before traveling overseas to smell war.
- [27:07]
Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
Nicole, he was, remember, a member of Congress when this thing allegedly happened? I'm speculating here, but I can only think what he likely did was go on some sort of congressional delegation to visit a conflict zone or some classified facility. He was on, I believe the House Energy and Commerce Committee at the time. Well, I'm going to tell you, I was working in Congress at the time. I was taking members of Congress to war zones at the time. I was taking members of Congress to classified places at the time. And they didn't do SERE training beforehand like he said they did. They didn't act like secret agents.
- [27:38]
Mark Wayne Mullen
Right.
- [27:39]
Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
They went and they did their job. Usually sit in little briefing rooms and get briefings and then fly home. It was very unusual, what he said. And if it wasn't official travel, if it was not for his job as a member of Congress, then the questions are even bigger. What secret missions was he undertaking as a sitting member of Congress that weren't part of his official duties? That's worrisome. It's actually important for them to know. But I think, regardless, the biggest takeaway here is I said earlier that the best thing I've seen in Homeland Security secretaries that do a good job is a conscience. The worst thing I've seen is people who come into role play. That is not a job that is very good to people who decide to role play. And it's really bad for the American people when people come into that job trying to be cops and robbers. And that's what it sounds like Mark Wayne Mullen is trying to do.
- [28:23]
Nicole Wallace
This stuff is weird, and weird people seem to be on Trump's radar. But one of the scariest things for me was the line of questioning around the elections. This is not someone willing to rule out armed federal agents at the polls.
- [28:40]
Paul Rykoff
Yeah. And that should be alarming to everyone because I think many folks have said, you know, we'll just wait till November. Trump has made it clear he does not want free and fair elections in November. He's telegraphed that punch. He's mentioned it in the State of the Union. He said over and over again that he has no intention of having a free and fair election. He's gonna need muscle to implement that. The military probably will push back. That's an area where we hope the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, Dan Kaine, will say no. He'll say no to the Insurrection Act. ICE is the hammer he wants to use. And if he's got a guy willing to throw that hammer, then our democracy is at risk. And it's why we need a plan from the Democrats, not just to win in November, but to stop this from happening now.
- [29:15]
Nicole Wallace
Tell me you guys have news. Tell me about it.
- [29:18]
Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
Yeah, look, I mean, if there's one thing I learned in the first term, if Donald Trump has one vulnerability, it is with America's veterans. It's with America's veterans. He has called these people suckers and losers. And with the Iran war spiraling over@diance.org, we felt like the most important thing right now is to give more voice to people who have fought in these forever wars. And I could not think of a better person to team up with than Paul. He runs Independent Veterans of America. They're doing extraordinary work to uplift those voices. So we've teamed up with them to launch a nationwide campaign to say, no more Forever wars and mobilize the country's independent veterans like Paul. And frankly, to hold up the mirror to Donald Trump and say, you think these guys are suckers and losers? They're gonna have you look in this thing right here. But Paul, over to you, because you guys are doing the brave work.
- [30:10]
Paul Rykoff
Yeah. I mean, Forever wars are almost universally unpopular. And it's not just Iran. It's about continuing to go further, to go into Cuba, potentially strike Mexico, and to be unaccountable. I think veterans, especially of all backgrounds, understand that's wrong. It's un American, it's unconstitutional, and it needs to stop. And we will step up to do it. We've got the fighters. We've got fighters who can raise their voices, who want to run for election and can win. So we're going to try to run 100 independent veterans all across this country, folks, who can win where Democrats can't and push back, defend our democracy. We've got the fighters and we need the ammo, and they're helping us out.
- [30:41]
Nicole Wallace's Guest Analyst
If I could make one appeal, I'll just say this for his organization. They're amazing people. They are patriots. I've long respected Paul. Folks should go to independentveteransofamerica.org and check out what they're doing. Defiance.org is thrilled to partner with them on this. These guys are heroes, and these are the types of people who are going to keep us out of wars like this.
- [30:58]
Nicole Wallace
All right, you guys, I'm glad that I get to have you at this table on all manner of discussions. But this is important stuff and we're happy to have you guys here to talk about it. When we come back, how bad things how bad things have gotten at the justice department in Trump 2.0. They have gotten so bad that a judge just threw a Trump prosecutor out of his courtroom and is now taking drastic steps to find out who's actually in charge of the U.S. attorney's office, once led illegally by Trump's former personal attorney, Alina Haba. That story's next. Stay with us. This week, a staggering example of the growing disgust and dissent from judges of the repeated constitutional violations by Donald Trump's Justice Department and the chaos it is creating in courtrooms across New Jersey where Trump appointee Alina Haba was disqualified from her position as interim U.S. attorney there and replaced by three people, all of whom a judge ruled last week, are also unlawfully serving. Now, the New York Times reports that a federal judge threw a government attorney out of of a hearing on Monday for not formally disclosing that he was going to be there ahead of time. According to that reporting, Judge Sahid Qurashi also fiercely interrogated a more junior prosecutor about whether the former interim U.S. attorney, Alina Haba, still had some role in operating the office and demanded that that office's leadership testify about who had authority over their actions. The hearing was supposed to be for the sentencing of a man who agreed to plead guilty to possession of child pornography. Sick and serious stuff. During which, the Times reports, Judge Qurashi said that the prosecutor had operated without having all the evidence in hand and was preparing to allow to agree to allow the defendant to serve significantly less time than the guidelines suggest. A judge saying this, quote, how did you execute a plea agreement without knowing all the evidence on the device, only later to find out, quote, oh, my God, there's babies and prepubescent children and bestiality. It's so egregious. But we didn't address any of that, end quote. I want to bring in staff writer for the Atlantic, Sarah Fitzpatrick and former U.S. attorney and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Lippman. Sarah, why is Alina Haba still up in this office after being found out by judges to have been illegally appointed?
- [33:29]
Mark Wayne Mullen (continued)
So the answer, Nicole, is we don't know. We know that she has been spotted there. I think the judge's line of questioning tells you that they are getting signals that her influence there continues in a material way. And I think that it suggests, again, the same theme that you and I talk about so often, which is that it is a DOJ that is not following court orders, even explicit court orders. And I think the fact that this is spilling out into a public hearing really reflects what my reporting shows, which is that a real unease among judges throughout this country about not receiving accurate information under, you know, in court, under penalty, under oath. And that is a really stunning development that I don't think anyone had anticipated. And now they're struggling to figure out how to, how to fix it, how to enforce it.
- [34:21]
Nicole Wallace
And I was the public to believe after the debacle, that is the release of the Epstein files, that it is a coincidence that this happens to be someone that the judge accuses of being so disgusting they are under sentencing, someone accused of bestiality and babies and child pornography crimes.
- [34:39]
Mark Wayne Mullen (continued)
Sarah so it is really, really disturbing. Child exploitation is a department that historically was, you know, given tremendous resources and would move incredibly quickly. Like, those cases were a major priority for any law enforcement agent. And the fact, you know, based on the fact pattern that we see in the court transcript, suggests a real just either negligence or lack of care or lack of staffing. But the end product of all of those is the fact that even the most critical, sensitive cases where there is active harm to children are not being pursued in accordance with the law. And that I think is really, really disturbing because there's all sorts of other cases that we don't hear about because they're not egregious or they don't have those types of things or they don't rise to the level of being a priority. So the fact that these types of mistakes were happening on such a case involving children, that sends alarm bells to me and to a lot of people in the law enforcement community, should send
- [35:41]
Nicole Wallace
alarm bells to literally every parent and every voter. Let me. And again, this is the judge's words as we are reading in the transcript. Let me read these to you, Harry, from Judge Qurashi. Quote, you didn't charge any of the future conduct, and it was a sloppy investigation where while you executed a plea agreement, the FBI uncovered significantly more child pornography that you couldn't charge. And now you're stuck with a plea agreement because you're bound by it. Who screwed it up? Your office, the FBI, or both? The prosecutor, quote, it is probably a combination of errors. Judge Right. So you've got the prosecutor who was there admitting that the FBI, this U.S. attorney's office, and or both are leading to a person pleading to heinous, disgusting crimes, including child pornography, getting off lightly.
- [36:37]
Harry Lippman
It's a ton worse than that. Nicole, you're right. You have this debacle in an individual case and as Sarah says, it's indicative of sloppiness throughout the department. But way more serious was the judge saying at the end, you, Department of Justice have lost the confidence of the court, the New Jersey legal community, and you're losing it of the entire public. Generations of DOJ attorneys build up this goodwill. You've managed to lose it all in a year. So it's far more than simply taking someone to task for screw ups in an individual case. And indeed, what Qurashi was ultimately threatening was to dismiss this case and other ones. There's something special about this case because if they won't begin to follow the law and they have now four times come back and redoubled their efforts and says the president gets to choose who the U.S. attorney is, even though all courts say that's wrong, you violated the law. He is threatening very much at the end of his rope to do the ultimate nuclear option dismiss cases. So the grander kind of indictment of the DOJ as a whole and its intentional failure to follow the law is really what is noteworthy about this. And as you say, ejecting someone from the courtroom, I've never seen it before. This is a judge dramatically at the end of his rope and a whole court in New Jersey that is dramatically at the end of theirs.
- [38:09]
Nicole Wallace
I guess what I want to ask both of you is what does he need Alina Habba so desperately for in New Jersey? But I'll have to sneak in a break before I ask both of you to answer that. We'll all be right back.
- [38:22]
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- [39:38]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Sarah and Harry. Harry, let me read you some more of the transcript that gets at what you're saying. Judge Qurashi, what role does Alina Haba have currently in operating your office? Daniel Rosenblum, the prosecutor. None that I'm aware of, Judge. None that you're aware of. Rosenblum. None. Judge. All right, so she could be operating the office. Mark Coyne, another prosecutor. She is not the judge. Sit down, Mr. Coyne. If you speak again, I'm going to have you removed. I already told you not to speak. You didn't file a notice of appearance. You don't get to blindside the court and do it, whatever it is you guys want to do. What is it about Alina Haba, Harry, that is so essential that they're willing to throw away child pornography cases to have her operate illegally in an office?
- [40:27]
Harry Lippman
You know, I think it's sheer bullheadedness. It's sheer. You don't get to tell us who is the U.S. attorney. The president gets to tell you. Even though the law is clear in the Constitution, Nicole, is clear. It says Congress has authority over inferior officers, and that includes U.S. attorneys. But what Karashi is getting at is illegality under any other name. Another judge, a colleague of his on the bench, has just held, as you mentioned, that even this triumvirate arrangement is likewise a violation of the scheme. They just refuse to do what every administration has done. When they can't get someone confirmed, you let the court put someone in to make sure the trains run on time until you can get someone confirmed. Now it's clear Quran and others suspect that somehow Haba is still in there working her will. But even if she isn't, what they're doing is illegal. They're still trying to wriggle out of it. And that's why he's saying, I want this triumvirate in front of me to testify. And that's still scheduled for two weeks. And if they can't tell me, I want Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche. They suspect with very good reason, that one way or another, they're simply continuing to violate the law.
- [41:40]
Nicole Wallace
Sarah, how do you get so many people who have studied the law to participate in breaking and destroying the rule of law?
- [41:49]
Mark Wayne Mullen (continued)
That is an excellent question, Nicole. I think it's a combination of factors. You have a system that right now, people are frightened, People are frightened, and people are willing. You know, I think I was having dinner with a source yesterday, and they were explaining that when under pressure, that's when character reveals itself. And we are now in a moment of tremendous pressure. And there is this added combination of, you want. People just want to keep their heads down. And they worry not just about the ramifications of doing the right thing or speaking out or calling attention or becoming a whistleblower. It's a very complex decision, in part because we have a president that is so focused on retribution in a public way. We have a Justice Department that is so focused on that. And I do think often when I talk with sources, the undercurrent of every conversation, including up until Cabinet members of Congress, is a fear about their own safety, that once a target is on your back, there could be a real world ramification, not just what happens on the Internet, but a real ramification for your safety. And so I think once safety gets involved in the human brain, regardless of how educated, regardless of how well you know the law, that is a major factor that can override things. I think the other thing to remember is DOJ has a major shortage right now. We have seen a mass exodus of people that have left, either by being forced out or choosing of their own volition. And so, to be quite frank, like, there's not that many people left. And of the people that are left, they are willing to tolerate the standard either for their own individual protection or because they don't see anything wrong with it or don't feel that they can. And I think what is so interesting in covering the Justice Department is the difference between what people say behind closed doors and what they will say in public. And I think that is the real crisis for our democracy right now.
- [43:50]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, and I guess for all those people, you know, be a Judge Boasberg, not an Alina Haba. Sarah Fitzpatrick, Harry Lippman, thank you both so much for joining me today. One more break. We'll be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast is one of the best people we get to talk to around here. It's Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. In this conversation, we get to dig into everything from his military service to his choice to speak out as a retired member of the military. Not something a lot of them do. We also talked about Donald Trump's war in Iran. Listen to what he told me
- [44:29]
Mark Wayne Mullen
in
- [44:29]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Iran in this particular one, there's a lot of swagger and a lot of bluffs. And sometimes I'll say hyperbole is a nice word to deflect from using lies to win the support of people. I don't like any one of those three things. It goes against the value of integrity and truth telling. But it's used as a marketing tool. What does it mean for this conflict that we're finding ourselves in today is it's a marketer who is sold a bad product and isn't given a guarantee behind it like most businesses do. Yeah, he's a former businessman, but he's failed at all of his businesses because of this same kind of thing when you don't plan an operation, when you don't give it the depth of analysis that it needs to have. And you're asking people to, to potentially put their life on the line to do it. To me, that's just, I don't know a word for it, but it's dangerous.
- [45:42]
Nicole Wallace
You won't want to miss the rest of that conversation. To watch this week's episode out now on YouTube, you just scan the QR code on your screen right now or download it wherever you get your podcast to listen. Let me know what you think on Instagram, Instagram or bluesky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.
- [46:03]
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Paul Rykoff
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