Alex Tabet (3:29)

And in the moments after that tense standoff, Molina got out of his car. He questioned the ICE agents why they were targeting him. He's an American citizen with Ecuadorian heritage. Then we saw ICE observers, people doing the same work that Renee Goode did, surround the scene, start whistling, start honking, bringing attention to the ICE raid. That is when tear gas was deployed. That was when pepper spray and pepper balls were deployed. We are right here where this happened. As you can see, there's some orange in the snow, the remnants of that pepper spray, that little red dot over there, that is a pepper ball. And this is a scene that we're seeing play out in multiple different locations in the city of Minneapolis as the Trump administration doubles and triples down on this immigration raid, despite the fact that a 37 year old woman was shot and killed just two blocks from where we are right now. Nicole.

Michel Norris (4:30)

Alex, where are.

Alex Tabet (4:31)

Mr. One more thing, Nicole, go ahead. I'm so sorry. One more thing I forgot to mention. Nicole, we also did reach out to DHS about this incident regarding Molina and they have yet to get back to us.

Michel Norris (4:43)

I'm sorry for what I was going to ask you is where are Mr. And Mrs. Molina right now? Did ICE let them go? Did Mr. Molina eventually show his ID? I mean, is this now the reality of life on the ground there? You have to show your papers to drive down the road.

Alex Tabet (5:02)

According to Mr. Molina and the other Hispanic people we've been talking to, that is the reality for so many people. Now what happened to Mr. Molina, I think is an example of what these ice observers can provide in this situation because they surrounded the scene, they whistled, they, they honked, they brought a lot of attention. And in the end, Mr. Molina was not detained because of the kind of chaos that ensued in the moments after. Now an ambulance was called for Mr. Molina. He was given some medical attention. We talked to him and his wife right after he left that ambulance. And now he's driving home and planning to take his car to the MC because he says that ICE agents rammed into it. Nicole.

Michel Norris (5:52)

Alex, it is your reporting is incredible. But to hear the citizens there in their own words describe the lasting trauma of Renee Nicole Goode's killing this way, quote, my fear to tell you that there was a shooting last week and then to say, quote, my Fear was that I was going to lose my husband. Today, I imagine that fear is widespread and palpable.

Alex Tabet (6:18)

100%.

Tim Miller (6:19)

Nicole.

Alex Tabet (6:19)

I mean, we were just outside of a Mexican restaurant and grocer that has been shut down all week. They finally decided to reopen just because they're afraid that if they don't reopen, they won't be able to make ends meet. But the people who work in that grocery store told me that they're living in a constant state of anxiety. And if you look at what happened to Mr. Molina and the reaction of his wife, they. His wife told me later in the interview that for a moment there, I was worried that I was going to have to raise these children alone. And that's the sort of pervasive fear that is spreading not just through the city of Minneapolis, but also St. Paul and throughout the state of Minnesota as the Trump administration has multiple thousands of federal agents here right now. Nicole.

Michel Norris (7:11)

Michelle, let me bring you in on this and read you from the lawsuit just announced in the last half hour by Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison. It also reads, in part, quote, when the federal government itself violates legal rights and civic norms on such a broad scale and public panic is high, state and city government bear the cost, both tangible and intangible defendants, agents, reckless tactics endanger the public safety, health and welfare of all Minnesotans. Additionally, the defendant's agents inflammatory and unlawful policing tactics provoke the protest the federal government seeks to suppress. Tell me how that's playing out in terms of what you're seeing in reporting.

Ruth Benguia (7:56)

I think people throughout the state of Minnesota will be glad that they have filed this lawsuit. It was interesting listening to Alex's report. I actually witnessed something earlier today where one of the. Where a woman was not so lucky. Just a few blocks from where he was at 35th and Park. I was at Chicago and Lake and witnessed a woman sitting at a bus stop and a group of enforcement agents got out of their suv, walked across the street, asked her a few questions, and very quickly swept her away. There were people who responded once they saw it with the whistles and the horns, honking their horns. But it all happened in a matter of maybe 30 seconds. Very few questions, walked her away. She's gone. Someone will be looking for her. And one of the things that you hear from Keith Ellison is that he feels strongly. I talked to him at length this weekend, and he thinks that the state of Minnesota, that the federal government has declared war on the state of Minnesota and on Minnesotans who live here. And what's happening is with this repeated behavior, this militarized behavior, it almost seems like the Trump administration is trying to tenderize people's attitudes about this kind of enforcement. And when I say tender, I'm not talking about handling with care. I'm talking about rendering something, you know, pummeling it until it submits. And what happens is when something like this becomes normalized, it's very easy for it to be weaponized in the future and to create this kind of fear. So people go underground, which is exactly what's happened. We were driving around the city throughout the day today, and in many immigrant neighborhoods, they're ghost towns. People are gone underground. They're not going to restaurants. They're not going to jobs. There's a very high absentee rate at the schools. And the schools are now offering online learning through February through February 12, because they expect that this is going to last for quite a long time. So imagine if they can use this kind of militaristic presence in an election in the future to intimidate people from going to the polls, to intimidate people from going to schools. And so that's why Keith Ellison said he was preparing this lawsuit. And the lawsuits are important because we saw out of the lawsuit in Illinois, they start to narrow the scope and the parameters of what the immigration enforcement can do. In the Illinois suit, it was declared that they are supposed to be wearing body cameras. The district court ruled that they are supposed to have and have operational body cameras. We don't see that happening. They seem to be ignoring that ruling. So it will be interesting to see what this lawsuit, whether they're able to prevent them and send them away from the state of Minnesota or at least create a protocol for their activities that is much closer to something that people are used to.

Michel Norris (10:34)

Michelle, you're making an incredibly profound point about their strategy in operationalizing the militarization of immigration enforcement. And the attorney general got at it a little bit by pointing out the double speak, the Orwellian nature of this, that if it were about fraud, they would have sent in swarms of accountants. If they were pursuing fraud, the people wouldn't be filming shootings. I wonder if you can just take me through. I mean, I think the whole country is still in shock from the shooting while the filming. While shooting, or shooting while filming, Whichever one you want to put first of Renee Nicole Goode, which was just last Wednesday. And I wonder what impact that had on people's willingness to be out in the streets to try to protect their neighbors and friends who may be targets of the racial profiling and the immigration enforcement activity.

Ruth Benguia (11:34)

If the goal was to make people afraid, if the goal was to censor them in some way, it has had exactly the opposite effect. I spoke to several of the people who were involved in the citizen monitoring groups. As of Saturday, they had 4,000 additional people sign up for these groups. And they do varying things at some of the schools. For instance, today, a group of retired teachers showed up and surrounded the schools with a phalanx of older teachers who could have been, you know, enjoying their retirement. And instead, they're standing in front of the schools, basically telling the agents, if you're going to come here and go after the students because they are arresting minors, they are apprehending minors in some cases. If you're going to go after the people, people in this school, you got to go through us first. They are out on the streets and they are calling dispatch units throughout the city to let people know where ICE is operating. There are these heat maps that they have to show where this activity is happening. So people are. When Keith Ellison said Minnesotans are responding to this, it is incredibly organized. I don't want to use hyperbole, but it almost sounds like the kinds of things that you read in school about the French Resistance. I mean, they are really going to the ground, but doing it in a very organizational way. And it's all throughout the Twin Cities and also throughout the state, making a very important point. And I keep saying this. It's not just the Twin Cities. They're up north, they're in St. Cloud, they're in Lakeville, they're all over the state. And Minnesota has an interesting diversity in its immigration, but it is not as diverse as many other states. And if they're coming here to root out the fraud, you have to ask, particularly with what I saw today with a woman being arrested. There are three people at the bus stop. A white man, a black man and a Latina woman. They didn't ask any of the questions to the other two people. They pulled her aside, took her away. They say that they're not involved in indiscriminate apprehension. They're not involved in racial profiling. Justice Kavanaugh issued a footnote to a recent ruling, basically saying that they should not be involved in indiscriminate or in. In. In. In using race as a factor in determining who they're pulling. But in some of these cases, it appears that that, you know, could possibly be the case. And when they're involved in these things is seeming to have a very Catalytic effect. And the people who live in the state and deciding that they're not just going to watch this, they're not just going to stand by, they're going to get involved in, in trying to document this and in trying to push back against this. And I think that that's one of the things that they will, you know, like what they saw across my shoulder here at City hall with this lawsuit joining now Illinois and California and pushing back against the federal government.

Michel Norris (14:19)

Krishi Greenberg has been watching along with us. You know, we started the hour with Donald Trump's retribution fetish, his obsession with Jerome Powell. What Attorney General Ellison made clear is that in his view, in his telling, as well as the mayor, the mayors, this is about retribution. I think the quote was against a blue city and a blue state. I also cannot let it go by that two of the best reporters, not just at this network, but on this story, have used these descriptions in their live reports from Minneapolis. People, quote, being asked to show their papers and something reminiscent of the French Resistance. I'm not talking about every parallel, but in terms of the citizens response, to have journalists in the field talking about people being asked to show their papers and a grassroots organization with some sort of historical echoes to the French Resistance is a real wake up call for all Americans.

Nicole (15:22)

It really is. I mean, I think if this administration was saying we want to deport criminals, that's what they ran on. And I don't think that's particularly controversial on either side. But we're so far beyond that. That's not what this is. This is them going out and really terrorizing a city. And if again, this was just about immigration enforcement, we see what that looks like. They haven't been following any of the Department of Homeland Security's own procedures. Their procedures are to de escalate encounters. We have on video them escalating an encounter. They're supposed to give warnings if at all possible. There were no warnings given to Ms. Good and they are violating their deadly force policy. They weren't providing medical care. All of these things that they were supposed to be doing in their daily jobs to enforce our immigration laws, they are not doing. And that is what is caught. These tactics are what are causing this widespread fear across the city. And so it seems to me that the issue is really, these are civil rights violations. These are people have the right to be able to send their kids to school. A woman driving an SUV with some stuffed animals in her glove compartment and her dog in the backseat is not looking to run over an immigration Officer she's there to observe, to monitor, but we saw no evidence of her being belligerent, of being aggressive. The aggression was coming from the other side. And so, again, when you're demonizing people who are just asking questions about what's going on, when you're vilifying them and calling them domestic terrorists, really setting up such an aggressive and scary situation, this goes far. We're not talking about deporting criminals anymore. That's not the conversation.

Michel Norris (17:15)

Michel, let me pull you back in on that point. I mean, when you are at a point and you're in the field and your sort of eyes are on the people, eyes on the ground, eyes on and this is really for both of you, and then you hear the government doublespeak on this. I mean, the actions of the ICE officer holding a camera and holding a gun. I've justi worked in the government. I've now covered government agencies. I've never heard of that before. And I wonder what people are feeling and thinking about the presence of ice. I mean, have they, you know, behind closed doors, tried to do anything to collaborate with any. I feel like I know the answer before I even get this question out of my mouth. But, I mean, is it all what we see is exactly what is happening? Michelle?

Ruth Benguia (18:06)

Well, it is. You know, I have heard that there are a group of Republican businessmen who tried to approach the administration and say there's a better way that we can do this. If you're going to work, you know, if you're going to do immigration enforcement, is there a better way? I have no idea if they will have any influence over this administration. But part of the the reason that this is so hard to swallow here is its levels. There's layers of this. So there is the aggressive action on snelling Avenue in St. Paul. There was an activist. So they're not just apprehending or or approaching people who are thought to be immigrants. They are now, in some cases, approaching people who are some of the ICE monitors. There's video that you probably have seen of someone who they got too close to them and tackled him at a gas station, injured him. At this gas station, there was another woman who was driving a car. They rammed her car. She the car wound up going into a pole. They apprehended her and then left the car, just left it there on the street, I guess, for the city of St. Paul to deal with. So people are upset about that kind of policing. They're also very confused, upset about the explanations that are coming out, you know, with the video that they saw from several angles and the explanation that they're getting out of Washington, that this is an act of domestic terrorism, this was a justified killing. I think people would just rather wait and hear this adjudicated in an actual court, not in a court of public opinion. They would like to hear a little bit more transparency about what the actual goal of this is. Because when you see, for instance, what I saw today with a woman who was at a bus stop trying to take a westbound bus on Lake street, you know, is that about public safety? Is that about rooting out frauders and scammers? Is that about catching the worst of the worst? And so the government is saying one thing, but people are seeing with their own eyes something very different. And it does not comport. And the worry about that also is that when I just have to harken back to what happened after George Floyd was killed, one of the things that really ignited the anger around that was that the original explanation did not match what people saw in the video. And so, you know, when they stretch the truth like this, it also can inflame tensions which are already too high in the city.

Michel Norris (20:23)

Well, and I this may be an unjustifiably optimistic view, but it can also break the fever when the lie so conflicts with what people can see with their own eyes. Alex and Michelle, the journalism you're doing there on the ground is so, so, so important. Thank you so much to both of you for being there and for starting us off. Christy, thank you for being here for the whole hour and over the top to keep me honest. I appreciate you. Coming up next for us, a nationwide response, an outpouring of activism and anger after the shooting death of Renee Nicole Goode. People from the sports world to people in their communities taking to the streets to express their anger at Donald Trump. We'll have that story and much more after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Doc Rivers (21:10)

It's shameful that the government can come out and lie about what happened when there's video and witnesses who have all come out and disputed what the government is saying. So very demoralizing, devastating to lose, you know, anyone's life, especially in that matter. So it's terrible, terribly sad for her family and for her and for that city. And I'm glad the Timberwolves came out and expressed that sadness.

Michel Norris (21:44)

It certainly feels like something's happening in our country. It feels like one of those moments when there is a certain undercurrent, if you will, electricity, a very specific kind of positive vibration, careening from coast to coast, from, as coach Kerr said there, head coach of the warriors, about the Timberwolves response and holding a moment of silence to honor Renee Nicole Goode. It's coming from some of our biggest cities to some of our smallest towns. In short, the American people, large numbers of them, are unafraid and energized right now. It's something we have seen before after tragedies, but perhaps never in a moment quite like this. As we said, that was Golden State warriors head coach Steve Kerr. There are a handful of other major cultural figures using their platforms, taking the risk to draw attention to what happened in Minneapolis last week at great peril, perhaps at a moment like this one. Last night at the Golden Globes, for instance, a number of celebrities wore pins emblazoned with Be good. But absent from that, the awards show lacked any single winner of an award, making any sort of speech or expressing any protest. Some of it happened on the red carpet from Mark Ruffalo, but that was it. So watching last night, one might have never known that there was a fatal shooting last week at the hands of ICE agents. And maybe that's why this moment is so extraordinary, because the energy we mentioned isn't coming from elites. The elites have either fallen in line or they're too afraid to use their platforms. The protests are grassroots. They are from the American people. This afternoon, students at two separate Minneapolis area high schools staged walkouts protesting ice. It's a product of everyday Americans individually acting on their convictions, on a voice inside their heads that seems to recognize this moment for what it really is, a turning point for our democracy. Watch and listen all of this. I immediately just cried and I didn't even know who that human was. It didn't matter that they were Democrat or Republican or what color their skin was or what their gender was. It mattered that somebody died brutally on the street.

Doc Rivers (24:06)

What do we want? When do we want it? The people united will never be defeated.

Nicole (24:26)

Who?

Doc Rivers (24:27)

Streets. It is our street.

Ruth Benguia (24:29)

This strikes at Missouri. It strikes at Kansas City, and it.

Doc Rivers (24:33)

Strikes at what it is to be an American.

Ruth Benguia (24:51)

Together as a community.

Michel Norris (24:52)

And that's the message that we want to send.

Doc Rivers (25:21)

There are times where people need to stand up together and say there is something morally wrong. Being a city that has always been a citadel to welcome people from everywhere and we're stronger because of that. These are values. It's not politics.

Michel Norris (25:38)

Joining our coverage, professor of history at New York University, Ruth Benguia is back. She is the author of Strongmen Mussolini to the Present. Also joining us, Mississippi now political analyst, host of the Bulwark podcast, Tim Miller, who has been on fire as he always is, but especially since last Wednesday. Also joining us, voting rights attorney, founder of Democracy Docket, Mark Elias. Ruth, I start with you, your thoughts on this moment.

Nicole (26:04)

People are responding to the stakes of the moment. They recognize that this is an authoritarian style brutality that's descended on us. And I'll remind people that the way that DHS and ICE are behaving are very similar to authoritarian states where there is no concept of peaceful assembly of legal observers of monitors. They don't have to care about evidence about body cams because their goal is to simply inflict brutality and inflict trauma. And people are recognizing that this is about decency of morality, like the man you interviewed, but also just keeping our basic rights. And so this is why you're seeing a grassroots mobilization all over the country.

Michel Norris (26:55)

Tim Miller, you've been an unbelievable voice against the gaslighting and I just want to hear where your thoughts are this morning, this afternoon.

Tim Miller (27:05)

Yeah, well, look, those are powerful images and I do want to say I think it's good and important that there are folks out there protesting. I think there are a lot of folks who have been doing this for a while, whether they be through indivisible or activist groups or people who are kind of lifelong comfortable with protesters. Comfortable protesters. And that's needed and appreciated. I think what's significant about this moment is that those images from what happened to Renee Goode resonate, I think beyond that with a lot of people who were activated by this and who wanted to come out and speak about it. I can just say anecdotally from, you know, I was at the basketball court for some tryouts yesterday for some kids and like this is what the dads are on the court wanted to talk about. And this is not people that are the protesting type. And they're just saying to me, look, this is crazy, this is wrong. And I think that people in this country do not want to see masked thugs in fatigues menacing 37 year old women in their car with, with, with stuffed animals in the passenger seat with a dog in the back. They don't want to see people chasing down door dash drivers and pushing. I saw a video earlier today of a woman in a gas station who got pushed down to the ground because they were chasing after some other person. This is not America. People do not want it. And the administration trying to justify and rationalize that it was necessary to shoot this woman three times in the head in broad daylight when we all have seen the video now. We've all seen how pleasantly she greeted him 20 seconds before he executed her. Regular people are not for it and they're not buying it. And so I think folks that are brainwashed and folks that are fully in MAGA and folks that are partisans are gonna buy it's not 100% of the country, but there's a big portion in the big middle of the country that this is not what they're for. And they might have been forced closed border, they might even been for Trump, but they're not for masked thugs harassing women who are nonviolent and non threatening in the street. And certainly they're not for executing women who are nonviolent and non threatening in the street.

Michel Norris (29:17)

Tim, I don't think he'd mind that I said this, but Chris Hayes said to me on Friday it's sort of amazing and newsworthy in and of itself that they viewed it as exculpatory to release the video. When I think others have made the point that the agent is filming, depending on whether he's right handed or left handed, he's filming with his right hand and shooting her with his left. I mean, what sort of window do you see into. To me it seems like ICE has transferred onto itself the Supreme Court's immunity ruling. I mean, they're all functioning as though there will be no consequences.

Tim Miller (29:54)

Yeah, I thought it was extremely telling that they released it because it meant that at least someone within that world, they sent it to a center right outlet or right wing mag outlet. I don't, I don't know much about it, a local outlet in Minnesota. But so someone, it was on his phone and so either the shooter sent it to this reporter or someone else with it, or he sent it to someone else with an ICE and cbb and they, so it was the, either the shooter himself or the regime. The Trump regime sent this to the reporter thinking it would make them look good. And I, and I totally agree with Chris on this. I think it shows, it creates an insight into their worldview that they thought that video would be. Maybe they didn't think it would be exculpatory. I guess maybe they thought that by putting this out it rationalizes their actions because they're in this bubble where they think, as Donald Trump said yesterday on the plane, that anybody who disturbs the police or anybody that objects to them or speaks out deserves what's coming to them. And if that is their worldview, that is extremely scary. On the one hand, right. That they could look at that video and think this woman deserved to be shot in the head three times. But I do think it also the political, the positive political side is that it shows them deeply out of touch with where the country is. If they looked at that video and thought, yeah, we want to put this out, this video that shows him her greeting him and then him shooting her three times and then either him or one of the other agents close to him cussing her out after they killed her.

Michel Norris (31:24)

Right with the word. I promise my executive producer I won't say again, but the first one starts with F and the second one starts with B. The first one ends in ing. I want to bring Mark Elias in desperately. I have to sneak in a break before I do that. We'll all be right back. Don't go anywhere.

Doc Rivers (31:43)

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Doc Rivers (33:37)

I don't care what side of this thing you are on politically. What's going on in our country right now is absolutely wrong. As far as the race stuff, the politics, I'm not going to get into the race stuff. I will. And it's just wrong and we have to do something. But the only thing we can do right now is keep speaking up because it doesn't seem like they care. And that's troublesome. Last thing I'm going to say because I don't want to stay on this, but I could. I keep thinking about kids and when I grew up, the president was always the role model and I think about that and the effect of being a bully, lying. How is that good for our kids?

Michel Norris (34:28)

Mark Elias it almost is a quaint thought, but Doc has a finger on the pulse in a way that I don't think any of us do. We're sort of staring at the trees and not always looking at the forest. But it's such a simple idea that there's really nothing in our politics suitable for our kids. I mean, I don't want my kids to see what I covered every day last week. And yet if you live in Minneapolis, you don't have that luxury of being shielded from a woman being murdered after drop off on the streets where there's ice activity or shot and killed. Whatever conclusion you're drawing about would happen. But to see. So I mean, I played Coach Kerr and Doc Rivers not because they represented a cacophony of people in public life, but because they represented a rarity of people in public life. The award show went down last night. People at the height of their celebrity. Some of the most famous people, not just in our country, but in the world. And not a single recipient used their platform to talk about what's happening in our country. I imagine it's fear because some of those people have been public with their views and I don't think they agree with what's happening. But what do you make of where we are right now?

Doc Rivers (35:44)

Yeah, and we've talked about this before. It's not just the artists. What about the business community? You know, Minneapolis and Minnesota is the headquarters of a number of very prominent companies, including 3M, you know, including Target. Right. Where are the corporate leaders in speaking up and denouncing this? Where are the large law firms? You know, you would expect to see large law firms flooding into the streets of Minneapolis and Minnesota saying we're going to put our lawyers out there so that you don't need ordinary citizens doing legal checks, but rather we'll have lawyers doing legal checks, but the large law firms are nowhere to be found. I'm not nearly as optimistic as I think you and Ruth and Tim are. I don't think this is a crescendo moment. I don't think this is like the culmination of something where people recoil in horror. I think this is the beginning of something. I think Donald Trump released the footage because Donald Trump wants you to know this is what he is doing and. Or whoever released the footage, the right wing, it's not that they thought the footage was good for them. It's just they want everyone to become accustomed to it because this won't be the last. This will be the beginning. I mean, he has not yet been in office a full year yet. And what else happened in the last week, Nicole? Well, number one, J.D. vance did a White House briefing in which he said that. That he and Donald Trump were gonna have their own special counsel that was gonna work out of the White House. So, you know, whatever unhappiness there is with Pambandi, whatever speed bump the U.S. attorney's officer putting in the way, they won't have to worry about that anymore. They'll have their own criminal prosecutor's office, quote, run out of the White House. And in that same announcement, he said that one of the things that they want to get to the bottom of is, you know, who's behind this, who's, you know, who's funding it, who's supporting it. And then he said, who's cheerleading it? I mean, they do want to criminalize speech. They do want to eventually go after the people who are on the sidewalk who are supporting efforts to monitor ICE and the like. And so this is going to get a lot worse because the one check that I kind of hear in Tim's commentary that I want to, like, just, just put out on the table here is the elections. The idea is that this is very unpopular. And the assumption that if it's unpopular, come November of 2026, the American people will stand up. Well, as the resident election lawyer on this call, the person who fought against Donald Trump in the aftermath of 2020 after having, by the way, warned everyone before 2020, this guy is about to do something to challenge these elections like we've never seen before. You know, Donald Trump told the Washington, Sorry, the Wall Street Journal that he wished he had confiscated the ballot boxes in 2020. Well, I mean, I don't know if he wished he did in 2020. Is there a reason to think he's not going to try to do that in 2026? And so we are watching all of this take place, the Department of Justice suing all these states with their voter files. And I just think that's not to say we're not going to have elections. It's not not to say that we're not going to do everything we can to make them as free and fair as possible. It's not to say that people standing up on the streets are not making a difference because they're making a huge difference. But I don't want people to think that we just had some culminating event that we're now going to all sort of react to and reset. I think we are at the beginning of the beginning, not the end of.

Michel Norris (39:16)

The end or the end of the beginning, which might have been the framing I gave it. Ruth, you want to respond to that?

Nicole (39:24)

Yeah, I think what, what you see in history and around the world today is it's often grassroots people, non violent resistance that does the heavy lifting and eventually puts pressure on elites to, to do the right thing because they often don't want it. Very rarely do they do it on their own. And so it's very significant that figures from the sports world, which is, you know, famously nonpartisan, are speaking out. And I'm encouraged by that because that encourages others to feel that they can do that too. And I think that Mark is correct. But we're also going to see more resistance spreading. It's going to be like a dynamic of repression and resistance and that's quite typical in authoritarian states.

Michel Norris (40:14)

I don't want Tim to feel like he's been mischaracterized as optimistic. So on the other side of a very short break, I'm going to let him. Give him time to defend himself from being called optimistic. We'll be back in a second.

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Nicole (41:22)

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Ruth Benguia (41:42)

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Michel Norris (41:55)

We're back with Ruth, Tim and Mark. Tim, before anyone slanders you by calling you optimistic, I want to give you a chance to describe. I think you've been really clear eyed about the moment and so I just want to give you a chance to contextualize what we're talking about.

Tim Miller (42:09)

I actually love it. I love digging on with Mark. I love when someone says they're more pessimistic than me. It's like when your spouse gets really mad about something, calms you down, all of a sudden you get kind of calm, say, look, yeah, I don't want to be overly sanguine. This doesn't mean that we can't fight, that we shouldn't fight it, or that nothing is inevitable in this world. And look, Mark's out there doing the work on the election stuff. And I think that there's a lot to be concerned about and a lot that we need to be vigilant about with regarding the midterm election. The point is, I think the point I'm trying to make is that their policies related to immigration are extremely unpopular. And if they just focused on the border and shutting down the border, that would be a bad issue for Democrats. But right now what they're doing, menacing people in the streets, menacing citizens, menacing women and children, throwing them to the ground, shooting them and killing them, wearing masks, dressed like they're invading Fallujah. This is not popular broadly, and I think that it's a political opportunity for Democrats to go on offense on this, to make them own the most extreme parts of their movement, of their ideology, and to use it to try to push back and win elections in November. And they're gonna do their best to try to cheat. They tried to do that on redistricting, they failed. We'll see how it goes over the next few months. But I think that's kind of the point that I'm trying to make is I do think it presents a political opportunity. It's not a political victory by any means. And there's a lot of ugliness ahead of us between here and there.

Michel Norris (43:44)

Mark, I think I come down, I hear what everyone is saying. I think privately I see all the calcification in the, I'm saying out of it, the let them eat cake vibes last night, the Golden Globes, you know, watch my Netflix show. But I'm up here on the biggest stage in entertainment, and I'm not going to say a word. As you keep saying, the law firms, they have all the money in the world. As President Barack Obama said, maybe they have to delay a Hamptons renovation. No interest in getting out on the streets in Minneapolis. I wonder what flip could be switched to wake people up to the dire moment we're in, in your view?

Doc Rivers (44:21)

Look, it may be that it's the economy and what we're watching with the Federal Reserve Board. I mean, I hate to say that, you know, that going after Chairman Powell is worse than going after Lamonica MacGyver or going after, you know, James Comey or going after Tish James, but it certainly seems to be the one thing that has spurred some of the elites, including, by the way, some Republicans, you know, so maybe, maybe, you know, the downfall of the Trump authoritarian regime will be his targeting people's 401ks.

Michel Norris (45:00)

It winds its way through the bond market. Ruth, we'll give you a quick last word.

Nicole (45:06)

I think that there is something called autocratic overreach. And we and this administration has kind of waged a kind of blitzkrieg on every front. And there's a cost that leaders can pay, especially if they're seen as incompetent or uncaring. And this administration is doing its best to have a kind of domestic, forever war on Americans, and they don't like it. And I think that this is ultimately going to help Democrats if, as Tim says, they can have a solid strategy out of this.

Michel Norris (45:46)

Yeah. That's another conversation for another day, right? That's the if. Ruth, Tim and Mark, you are three people whose views I seek out every time I take a peek at how folks that I respect are responding to events. And so thank you so much for joining me today. When we come back, another person I seek out, historian Heather Cox Richardson, who talked to me about the importance of demonstration. I'll show you what she had to say. It's this week's Best People podcast. And that's next. This week's guest is someone millions of you turn to to make sense of the world in which we live. It's historian Heather Cox Richardson. Take a listen to what she told me about the importance of people demonstrating.

Ruth Benguia (46:32)

The reason that it's important to demonstrate not just your dislike of the current regime, but your desires for the future is because quite literally, in the United States of America, the Constitution rests on the power of we the people, not a religion, not a nation, not the dirt it relies on. We the people, we give our power to our elected officers in order to enable them to make laws under which we are governed. And if we withdraw that approval, if we say, no, no, no, you do not represent us, that delegitimizes that government. And this is one of the reasons, as we started out saying, that Trump is turning to foreign affairs because he has been so delegitimized in the United States of America. One of the things really bothers me in where we are right now are the number of people who sort of say, oh, it's all over. Lol. America never had, you know, never had a democracy. This is, you know, why are you even trying? And then you turn around and you.

Nicole (47:33)

Look at the way we react to.

Ruth Benguia (47:35)

Events in, say, Iran right now or in Syria when they got rid of Assad, and you look at the extraordinary.

Nicole (47:44)

Support we give to people who are.

Ruth Benguia (47:45)

Trying to reclaim their voice in their government. And I'm like, how about cheering on those people in the United States who are trying to stop the loss of our democracy, to not lose it.

Michel Norris (47:58)

Everything she says is brilliant and so prescient and important to hear all of it. My entire conversation with Heather Cox Richardson. It's this week's episode of the Best People. Just scan the QR code on your screen. As always, please let me know what you think of this one on Blue sky or Instagram. One more break. We'll be right back. When I thank you for letting us into your homes, I mean it. I know the news is hard, but we're really grateful that you watch.

Doc Rivers (48:22)

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