"The battlefield on American airwaves”

Summary

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Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Deadline: White House

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Episode: "The battlefield on American airwaves”
Date: February 17, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace explores the mounting pressure on American broadcast networks and legacy media under the Trump administration’s renewed push against perceived critics, focusing on late night TV, regulatory policy shifts, and the consequences for the First Amendment. Central to the conversation is the controversy ignited by CBS’s handling of an interview with Senate candidate James Talarico on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, as legal and political maneuvering threaten both freedom of expression and the business of journalism. The episode also delves into the unraveling Epstein files scandal and its cultural fallout, featuring discussion with media analyst Oliver Darcy, podcaster Alex Wagner, and The Atlantic’s David Frum.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. The CBS/Colbert Controversy and the 'Equal Time' Rule

• Colbert’s ‘Censored’ Guest
  [01:22–02:00] — Stephen Colbert opens with a tongue-in-cheek expose of CBS allegedly blocking his interview with Texas state rep. James Talarico due to legal advice about the FCC’s “equal time” rule.
• Explanation of FCC Shift
  [02:00–03:30] — The “equal time” provision is explained as a long-standing regulation requiring broadcast outlets to provide equal airtime to political candidates, previously exempting talk shows. A new FCC directive under Trump-appointed chair Brendan Carr extends this rule to partisan-motivated talk shows, placing hosts like Colbert and Kimmel in the crosshairs.
• Network Defensiveness & Colbert’s Response
  [03:30–04:22] — CBS issues a defensive statement maintaining it only provided legal guidance, not outright censorship; Colbert posts the Talarico interview to YouTube instead, circumventing network restrictions.

II. Broader Context: Trump Administration, FCC, and Media Intimidation

• Brendan Carr’s Role
  [06:14–07:55] — Carr is cast as overtly politicizing FCC enforcement to rid airwaves of Trump critics, with CBS’s compliance seen as capitulation.
  • David Frum: “Never has an FCC chair behaved so brazenly political...he’s working to eliminate critics from Donald Trump’s air.”
• Legacy Media in Crisis
  [11:56–14:51] — Parallels are drawn to autocracy in Hungary, where wealthy allies buy up media to neuter or shutter dissenting voices; Wallace and guests lament the slow atrophy of U.S. newsrooms and late night shows, warning of the irreplaceable value of institutional media to democracy.
  • Nicole: “You get your friends who are really rich to buy a big institutional media and either shut it down or just gut it...that is exactly what is happening here.”
• Audience Erosion
  [13:11–14:51] — CBS’s moves are seen as shrinking its own audience, alienating the loyal viewers who anchor cultural importance for legacy news and entertainment programming.

III. The Impact of Corporate Consolidation

• Business Over Principle
  [16:48–18:14] — Colbert’s cancellation by new CBS owner David Ellison is understood as a maneuver to curry favor with Trump, smoothing regulatory paths for bigger, forthcoming corporate mergers.
  • David Frum: “He wants that deal to go through. And...his main argument to shareholders of Warner Bros Discovery is pick my deal because I am friendly with this administration...If he has to capitulate...they do not want to run afoul of this administration.”
• Short-term Political Calculation, Long-term Brand Damage
  [18:14–19:13] — Guest panel stresses that these business strategies are “cannibalizing” CBS’s most valuable assets for political expedience, risking sustainability and reputation.
  • Host, 18:14: “Where do they think cannibalized brands go to die?”

IV. Reaction from the Right and Internal Contradictions

• Traditional Conservative Defense of Free Speech
  [23:17–24:13] — The right’s former stance as defenders of First Amendment rights is contrasted with today’s push for censorship of critical media.
  • Oliver Darcy: “The right’s thing longer was don’t tell corporations what to say...why should the government be looking at a narrow group of companies and saying, you can’t say what you want.”
  • Sen. Ted Cruz [24:23]: “We cannot have the government arbitrating truth or opinion...shouldn’t it be understood to encompass robust First Amendment protections?”
• Hypocrisy & Selective Enforcement
  [25:09–27:58] — The policy only affects legacy media, not partisan podcasts or cable news. This “double standard” is highlighted as both sinister and farcical:
  • Oliver Darcy: “Too sinister to be pathetic, but also too pathetic to be wholly sinister.” [09:54]
  • David Frum: “The only institutions that are regulated now are AM, FM radio and broadcast tv. Unfortunately, those are the media that the President watches.”

V. Culture, Media Fragmentation, and the Stakes for Democracy

• Loss of Shared Public Space [29:13–30:09] — The undermining of traditional media and regulatory capture by partisan interests is called a direct threat to democratic institutions and civic discourse.
  • Nicole: “The destruction of a public square matters...the destruction of democracy begins with actions like this.”

VI. Epstein Files, Trump, and the MAGA Schism

• Conservative Outrage Over Cover-up [32:41–33:08] — Sean Ryan, a right-wing podcaster, delivers a scathing rebuke to Trump for hypocrisy in handling the Epstein files, accusing him of protecting “pedophiles” instead of “draining the swamp.”
  • Sean Ryan (via David Frum & Oliver Darcy): “The whole drain the swamp campaign promise was another lie, huh?” [33:03]
• Loss of Religious “Magical” Belief Among Trump Base
  [34:13–36:13] — The Epstein scandal is described as a “religion” within MAGA, and Trump’s involvement fractures the faith that justified previous support despite other failings.
  • Oliver Darcy: “There is this vast conspiracy...and there is one Jesus figure who is defending America against this satanic conspiracy and that is Donald Trump...And then it turns out, actually, no, he and Satan were best friends.” [34:31]
• Political Fallout and Questions of Leverage
  [38:23–39:25] — Speculation arises over whether Trump’s actions are to shield himself, protect others, or use the knowledge as political leverage.

VII. Masculinity, the Manosphere, and Trump’s Loss of Cultural Ground

• [41:09–41:18]
  The testosterone-heavy “manosphere” of right-wing influencers is now turning on Trump over the Epstein revelations, questioning his brand of masculinity and authenticity.
  • Nicole: “This Epstein thing has unraveled all of that because he’s quite clearly at sea and at odds...that is a deeply problematic place for someone like him to be when sort of no holds barred truth telling was his M.O.”
  • Oliver Darcy: “He never seemed like a decent person.” [42:15]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Never has an FCC chair behaved so brazenly political...carrying out Donald Trump’s agenda...attempting to silence the speech of critics.”
  — David Frum [06:37]
• “Too sinister to be pathetic, but also too pathetic to be wholly sinister.”
  — Oliver Darcy [09:54]
• “You get your friends who are really rich to buy a big institutional media and either...shut it down or just gut it...that is exactly what is happening here.”
  — Nicole [11:56]
• “We cannot have the government arbitrating truth or opinion.”
  — Sen. Ted Cruz [24:23]
• “If business success were part of the plan...if having more people watch was part of the strategy, they are now speaking...to a shrinking audience.”
  — Host/Nicolle Wallace [13:55]
• “It is just these legacy airwaves companies...where this censorship is happening.”
  — Oliver Darcy [27:58]
• “The more you protest about nothing...the more likely it is that you are actually playing a center.”
  — Nicole [38:08]
• “There is this religiosity to it...the fervor is very deeply emotional.”
  — Nicole [41:28]
• “He never seemed like a decent person.”
  — Oliver Darcy [42:15]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:22] — Colbert jokes about being “censored” by CBS/FCC; context for the episode theme.
• [04:22] — James Talarico: “...this is the most dangerous kind of cancel culture...corporate media executives are selling out the First Amendment.”
• [06:14] — Brendan Carr’s politicization of the FCC.
• [09:54] — “Too sinister to be pathetic...” (Darcy's pithy diagnosis)
• [11:56] — Comparison to Hungarian media capture.
• [13:13] — CBS appeasing “a smaller and smaller audience.”
• [16:48] — Ownership, mergers, and the business logic of appeasing Trump.
• [24:23] — Ted Cruz objects to FCC chilling free speech in confirmation hearings.
• [27:58] — Oliver Darcy unpacks the “crazy” regulatory double standard.
• [32:41] — Sean Ryan’s (MAGA podcaster) revolt over Trump’s Epstein cover up.
• [34:31] — The “religion” of MAGA and the QAnon conspiracy matrix.
• [41:09] — Manosphere's disillusionment over Trump's character.
• [42:15] — Oliver Darcy on Trump’s reputational damage: “He never seemed like a decent person.”

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Flow and Tone

The episode mixes urgency and dire warning with irreverent humor—mirroring Colbert’s late-night style and Wallace’s trademark clarity on creeping authoritarianism and media manipulation. Panelists voice deep concerns for democratic norms, First Amendment threats, and the erosion of trusted institutions, alternating detailed context with biting asides and memorable turns of phrase. The cast highlights hypocrisy and points out fissures appearing among old and new right-wing coalitions, noting unprecedented public and internal backlash against Trump.

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In Summary

“The Battlefield on American Airwaves” vividly captures a moment of reckoning for U.S. media, where corporate interests, government pressure, and cultural polarization collide. Through the lens of late night TV controversy and government files scandals, Nicolle Wallace and her guests diagnose a broader crisis—and challenge viewers to recognize what's at stake for truth, accountability, and the future of the Fourth Estate.

Transcript

[Nicole]

Why have we asked our contractor we.

[Host]

Found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian?

[Nicole]

Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids.

[David Frum]

We only met a month ago.

[Oliver Darcy]

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[Host]

Hi there everybody. It's four o' clock in New York this afternoon. Once again, our American airwaves are the setting for confrontation over the First Amendment. A battlefield, really between autocratic instincts and impulses and pro democracy forces so full of courage and cowardice alike. So we'll start at the beginning. Last night, Stephen Colbert began his CBS program with a message he said his lawyers didn't want his viewers to know about first. Just watch that moment.

[David Frum]

You know who is not one of my guests tonight? That's Texas State Representative James Tallarico. He was supposed to be here, but we were told in no uncertain terms by our network's lawyers who called us directly that we could not have him on the broadcast.

[Nicole]

Then.

[David Frum]

Then I was told in some uncertain terms that not only could I not have him on, I could not mention me not having him on. And because my network clearly doesn't want us to talk about this, let's talk about.

[Host]

So we'll point something out. You might have noticed that wasn't James Tallarico's picture over Colbert's shoulder. So you understand it was sort of a bit a joke Colbert made about not showing Talarico on his program. From there, though, Colbert went on to explain the backstory behind the alleged censorship. Primarily what he described as new concerns at that network, cbs, over something the Federal Communications Commission recognizes as the equal time provision. Here's what that is. In short, radio and broadcast programs should offer an equal share of time to any candidate in a particular political race during the course of that campaign. Of course, there have always been exceptions. Cable news, for instance. And for a very long time, talk shows were Exempt as well. But a couple weeks ago, the fcc, under its chair, Brendan Carr of Jimmy Kimmel fame, issued new guidance that states in part, quote, a program that is motivated by partisan purposes, for example, would not be entitled to an exemption under long standing FCC precedent. In other words, Carr, who as recently as 4days ago said he harbors no regrets for his handling of the Jimmy Kimmel controversy late last year. He's putting networks on notice now that talk shows like Colbert's show would now become a target of the Trump administration. We've reached out to the FCC for comment, but they have not responded. As for cbs, the network is today defending its decision, saying this, quote, the Late show was not prohibited by CBS from broadcasting the interview with Representative James Talarico. The show has provided legal guidance that the broadcast could trigger the FCC equal time rule for two other candidates, including Representative Jasmine Crockett, and presented options for how the equal time for other candidates could be fulfilled. The Late show decided to present the interview through its YouTube channel with on air promotion on the broadcast rather than potentially providing the equal time options. Which brings us back to last night. Stephen Colbert, under corporate and federal pressure, told us the truth, the American people and his audience. Not only that, he actually, as the statement alludes to, posted the interview he went on to conduct with the aforementioned Senate candidate James Talarico as his state, Texas begins early primary voting today. Watch.

[David Frum]

Do you mean to cause trouble? I, I think that Donald Trump is worried that we're about to flip Texas. And Stephen, this, this is the party that ran against cancel culture. And now they're trying to control what we watch, what we say, what we read. And this is the most dangerous kind of cancel culture, the kind that comes from the top. Corporate media executives are selling out the First Amendment to curry favor with corrupt politicians. And a threat to any of our First Amendment rights is a threat to all of our First Amendment rights.

[Host]

By the way, that interview, described by Talarico as one, as you heard, Donald Trump doesn't want you to see, is up to nearly 2 million views on YouTube in less than a day while searches for his name on Google have skyrocketed. That's where we start today. Oliver Darcy's here. He's the author of the newsletter Status covers all things media. The person we turn to. Also joining us, senior political analyst, contributing host on Pod Save America, the host of the podcast Runaway Country, Alex Wagner's here. Also joining us at the table, staff writer at the Atlantic video podcast host David Frum is at the table. Let me sort of set the table with just a couple of other pieces. I feel like we sort of live in this world of constantly looking and watching at what they're gonna do next. But I just wanna remind people of who Brendan Carr is. Here he is from back in September talking about Jimmy Kimmel.

[David Frum]

Again, we are in the midst of a massive shift in dynamics in the media ecosystem for lots of reasons, again including the permission structure that President Trump's election has provided. And I would simply say we're not done yet with seeing the consequences of that shift.

[Host]

Making no mistake that the politics is driving the policy.

[David Frum]

Yeah, I think that's what's actually surprised everyone the most. I mean, I've talked to a lot of former FCC commissioners, FCC chairs, both Republicans and Democrats have expressed a lot of alarm about how Brennan Carr is behaving as the FCC chair. Never has an FCC chair behaved so brazenly political, you know, really carrying out Donald Trump's agenda. And this is what they're attempting to do, Right? They're attempting to intimidate networks, talk shows like Colbert's and Kimmel's and eliminate, I think critics from the airwaves. Donald Trump watches these shows quite a bit. He definitely watches them.

[Host]

He like laps them up. I mean, he's obsessed with what's on top.

[David Frum]

Exactly. And he wants Brendan Carr to do something about it. And Brendan Carr is doing something about it. He's working to eliminate critics from Donald Trump's air. And that comes in a lot of different forms, whether it's pressuring the affiliates of ABC and saying you guys should really drop Jimmy Kimmel and Kazakhstir there, or by saying that the equal time rule is not going to apply anymore to late night talk show hosts or shows like the View. And so we should be very clear about what's happening here. He is attempting to silence the speech of critics. And what's really sad is that CBS seems to have capitulated here and told Colbert that he was not allowed to have telorico on the show last night. Now CBS is strangely saying that's not what we said, which is also remarkable.

[Host]

Because they seem to have spent more time on that statement than they might have spent dealing with the issue. So very defensive statement out today.

[David Frum]

Well, they're calling arguably their most prominent personality effectively a liar, saying he misled his viewers. Cuz Colbert said in no uncertain terms was he told that he could have Talarico on the show. They're saying that we just provided legal guidance. So that's remarkable in itself. And we should also Note too that that Colbert is no longer going to be a host, Kamay, because his show was canceled. And that happened during this transaction where Paramount was sold to David Ellison and they needed to occur a favor from the administration. And again, Trump hates Colbert, he hates Kimmel. And so while there's no direct evidence, I suppose tying those two things together, it sort of presses the imagination to think that Colbert's cancellation had nothing to do with the politics. And he's joked about that as recently as last night.

[Host]

It takes a figure though, I think, to narrate this story for the American people, right? Like I feel like the four of us have been talking about and warning about authoritarianism for maybe nine years. And I think the attacks on the press are, they're through line, they're featured of Trump's time, right? Calling the press the enemy of the people, having, I think the publisher of the New York Times went down the first term to say, look, that puts journalists all over the world in danger. Trump's never cared to find a person in Colbert willing to not just tell people what's happening, but to show them what's happening does feel like the plot twist.

[Oliver Darcy]

I've had a formula for describing many Trump actions, which is they're too sinister to be pathetic, but also too pathetic to be wholly sinister. And that's what's going on here.

[Host]

Wait, say that again.

[Oliver Darcy]

Too sinister to be pathetic. Too pathetic to be wholly sinister.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Oliver Darcy]

So you've probably noticed there's no equal time rule for Joe Rogan. He doesn't have to give time to people to say vaccines are good. There's no equal time rule on Fox. There's no equal time rule for Candace Owens. She doesn't have to have a person not to say, no, Jews don't eat babies. This rule applies only to technology that existed before the advent of cable. It's a leftover from the radio days. Now, some of your viewers may remember back in the 1980s, 1986, the Ronald Reagan administration eliminated the so called Fairness doctrine because they said there's this thing coming called cable. There's this thing coming maybe called the Internet. And someday soon this idea that there are only three channels is going to be obsolete. So the government shouldn't regulate. Soon there are going to be dozens, maybe 100, maybe more, maybe an infinite number. The government should not be regulating how much time these infinite channels regulate. And that was to allocate to each person, and that was the free market view. There's going to be technology. The airwaves don't matter and the airwaves aren't scarce and so the government shouldn't be telling people. So the only institutions that are regulated now are am, FM radio and broadcast tv. Unfortunately, those are the media that the President watches. And so Brendan Carr says, my mission here is to make sure that Donald Trump doesn't see things that upset Donald Trump. Even though as you saw 2 million views on YouTube, I mean as an act of censorship, pathetic. But as an act of Brendan Carr saying to Donald Trump, I am protect. Donald Trump doesn't know how to use YouTube, I'm going to protect you from what you don't want to see on the medium you use.

[Host]

Sinister though.

[Oliver Darcy]

Sinister, but also pathetic.

[Host]

Yeah, Brendan Carr's rebuke came not from a Democrat or from really a network, but it came from the public. In the first sort of pre Minneapolis real act of successful resistance to Trump 2.0, people canceled Disney and Hulu and Brendan Carr had to walk back and.

[Nicole]

The network, they realized that they had business interests that were aligned with the public interests. On the flip side, I gotta say, this time last year, I thought about this this morning when I read about Colbert. I was in Hungary and I was talking to people about how is it that you can in a tourist friendly autocracy, like how does that work? What does it mean to have state media? How did that happen? And the answer is you get your friends who are really rich to buy a big institutional media and either they shut it down or they just gut it to the point that it becomes irrelevant. And that is exactly what is happening here. And while I don't think, you know, in this immediate chapter or with the Kimmel chapter, there's. I absolutely think public blowback is going to be something. What we are witnessing here is the really the hastened end of legacy media. And you can say what you want. As someone who hosts a podcast and embraces new media, with all that I have, there is something to having a newsroom. There is something to having great writers that work for someone like Stephen Colbert, that parody on a national level like we need. I don't think that we are at a point yet where we can give up on institutional media. And I think it has really important and funded resources that are not, that are not replicated in the new media landscape and we lose something.

[Host]

Well, who agrees with you? Donald Trump? The reason they're his target. They also have.

[Nicole]

Because he understands their importance.

[Host]

They're important to culture. Right now he's losing culture though. I mean I was thinking about where we were a Year ago. And why this feels different, why this feels different to me is even over the summer he was still hovering around the low 40s. He's at 35% plunging. And so CBS is appeasing a smaller and smaller and smaller. I mean, if business success were part of the plan, and who am I to say what anyone's business plan would be a lonely cable house. But if having more people watch was part of the strategy, they are now speaking in a more brittle and biting way to a shrinking audience.

[Nicole]

Well, and that an audience that will never come back. The people that give up right now on Stephen Colbert are never coming back.

[Host]

Even him, wherever he goes.

[Nicole]

CBS will not. The people who've given up on the evening news are never coming back to the evening news. So this is a two pronged assault on the immediate sort of, you know, the freedom of the fourth estate, but also on institutional media that when they capitulate, they lose viewers and so goes institutional media. Anderson Cooper's leaving 60 Minutes. He says it's to spend more time with his family. I question whether that's the entire story. You may lose other correspondence. I mean, you are seeing the second part of the playbook that they run in Hungary which is atrophy it so that it's either no longer recognizable or relevant at all. And then we are left with a very atomized media landscape which, you know, yes, is great for people who are trying new things out and have spunk and zeal, but we do need newsrooms and it's great to have late night writers. And that has not yet been replicated.

[Host]

I want to pick up on the Anderson Kubert point. Whatever his reasons are, and he did state that he left to spend time with his young family. It does leave 60 minutes. And I've read some of your reporting, other reporting that 60 Minutes feels that it's being sort of pulled apart and left as a shell of what it once.

[David Frum]

The morale at 60 minutes, it just cannot be overstated is so low. I mean, I've talked to a number of people familiar with the dynamics inside that show. It is, you know, they were at the basement before. It's like they're drilling lower than the basement. Like it is very, very low. Anderson Cooper now leaving is dealing another blow to the morale there. I think more correspondents likely are probably on their way out. It's hard to imagine Sharon Alfonsi.

[Host]

Who?

[David Frum]

Barry Weiss, the editor in chief there.

[Host]

Now, she was the journalist behind the censored Seekot story.

[David Frum]

Yeah. And Bari Weiss does not think very highly of her to my understanding. So hard to imagine that she's going to be there for the long haul. The morale is very low. My understanding too, by the way, is while Anderson Cooper did officially say that his family he'd like to spend more time with his young family is that Bari Weiss certainly played a role. He had grown disillusioned with the direction the network is taken under Bari Weiss. And this is according to two people familiar with his decision making process. He didn't need to be associated with that show. He really liked his nearly two decades on that show. But he also probably didn't want to be part of wherever Bari Weiss is directing that ship. And so he decided to jump overboard. And I think you're going to see others leave that show as well. And back to the CBS thing. This is obviously not good for CBS's business, right? Like people like Colbert, he's a top rated host there. He's a top rated the king of late night. They like him. They like 60 Minutes. It's a top rated news program. And you're seeing David Ellison, who owns this company, really destroy these institutions.

[Host]

Let me ask you though about that. So he bought a company whose most valuable assets include Colbert in 60 minutes. Why destroy the most valuable thing in the thing you bought?

[David Frum]

Well, he's trying to create favor right now with Donald Trump because he has a much larger deal he wants to get done. So today, Warner Brothers Discovery, which owns cnn, hbo, the Warner Brothers picture studio, they said they will re engage with talks with Paramount, which David Ellison owns and which owns cbs, to see if they can come up with a deal maybe where David Ellison would then purchase Warner Bros. Discovery. That's a huge deal. He would own two Hollywood studios, he would own cnn, he would own hbo, like a lot of treasure in the Warner Brother Discovery case there. And so he wants that deal to go through. And his main argument to shareholders of Warner Brother Discovery is pick my deal because I am friendly with this administration, I am friendly with Donald Trump and I can get this deal across the regulatory finish line. And so he needs Donald Trump in his corner right now more than anything. And so if he has to capitulate and if he has to move CBS in a rightward direction and if he has to take Colbert off the air or not allow him to have the guest that he'd like or whatever it may be, they do not want to run afoul of this administration. And I think that's the backdrop to a lot of decisions. So not good for cbs. But I think if you're thinking about this from the 30,000 foot perspective. To them, it makes business sense.

[Host]

I don't understand, though, where they think cannibalized brands go to die. Yeah, I get that you want all this stuff, but if you're the person, I mean, we don't live in the same country we lived in when the merger happened. We live in a country where, for a lot of Americans, the killing of two Americans in Minneapolis hardened their views. They didn't become more open to Trump friendly corporations, they became more opposed. There are grassroots boycotts. I have Scott Galloway on this week with the big tech boycotts. There are more people boycotting ICE enablers and Trump friendly corporations, not fewer.

[Oliver Darcy]

One of the ways that authoritarian regimes get themselves in trouble is they cut themselves off from knowing bad news in time because they demand endless flattery of the leader. The leader does not know that there aren't sausages in the shops. And so that what Brendan Carr is doing here is actually among the people this is no favor for is Donald Trump. One of the things that was distinctive About Donald Trump 11 years ago was he knew no one's talking about immigration, but I think people care about it. So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna have this sixth sense about what's on people's minds that most people don't want to talk about. And I'm gonna make that my issue. Donald Trump of 2026 thinks the economy is good. He doesn't just say it, he really believes it. And Brendan Carr's job, and that of others too, is make sure that Donald Trump never finds out that there's a lot of discontent. Now, if you can completely suppress the elections of 2026, maybe Donald Trump doesn't need that information. But if you can't suppress the elections of 2026, he needs that information. And he's in his last seconds of time where he could make use of the information if he had it. So he has been cut off once again from the news. I mean, how bad are things for Republicans in Texas? I don't know. I'm not following the race that closely, but the people around Donald Trump should be following it obsessively and they should want to take the measure of James Talarico. Is this plausible? Will this work? And instead it's just happy, happy. Chirp, chirp, chirp. Don't worry, don't worry. Don't worry, boss. Everything's fine. There are sausages in the shops.

[Host]

And the one exception would be Mamdani, where he obviously had enough access to news about him and knew enough when they met to turn him into an ally. I mean, to your point where Trump is paying attention to a story he still has, unfortunately for people who aren't fans, the ability to insert himself in the story, that can benefit him politically.

[Oliver Darcy]

Maybe the New York Post is the last, the last jester that is the right to tell the king the truth.

[Host]

Oh, my God, we're all going to die. All right, well, there's so much more to get to and so much more to unpack on this. Also ahead for us, the fallout continues over the release of the Jeffrey Epstein Files, a conservative podcaster not known to too many viewers on this show, but one with a very large podcast audience, with an absolutely scathing new takedown out over the weekend of Donald Trump and Pam Bondi for what he says are the lies coming out of the White House, his words for its disastrous distortion of what is in the Epstein files. We'll bring that to you. And later in the show, Donald Trump's immigration crackdown is terrifying people all over our country. The latest being fourth and fifth grade students. Kids, little kids. These are them running. They're running from their own bus stop. We'll talk about that with one local resident who saw this video and said, enough. Quick break. We'll be right back.

[David Frum]

I've never protested before in my entire life, but. Sorry.

[Host]

It's all right.

[Oliver Darcy]

I watched four fifth grade kids run away from our own government.

[David Frum]

I never want to see that again.

[Nicole]

Why have we asked our contractor we.

[Host]

Found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian?

[Nicole]

Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids.

[David Frum]

We only met a month ago.

[Oliver Darcy]

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[David Frum]

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[Host]

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[David Frum]

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[Host]

We're back with Oliver, Alex and David. So, David, I want to come back to what's in the DNA. To the degree that there's any conservative DNA left and the right, they are against all of this. As you're pointing out, the laws and the policies go back to Reagan. But free speech as recently as like 18 months ago was the right's thing.

[Oliver Darcy]

And the right's thing longer was don't tell corporations have free speech rights. Corporations are people, as Mitt Romney said, they have free speech rights and they can't be regulated by the state. And so, I mean, I can't tell you how many documents on the Cato institution and heritage I've read over the years that said the Fairness Doctrine, what remains of it after it was mostly abolished in 1986, it's not only oppressive, it's completely obsolete. In a world in which there is infinite bandwidth for infinite content, why should the government be looking at a narrow group of companies and saying, you can't say what you want. All the other companies in the economy, they can.

[Host]

I want to show you Ted Cruz making some of these points, illustrating this point better than I can in his questioning of Brendan Carr.

[David Frum]

Democrat or Republican, we cannot have the government arbitrating truth or opinion. Mr. Chairman, my question is this. So long as there is a public interest standard, shouldn't it be understood to encompass robust First Amendment protections to ensure that the FCC cannot use it to chill speech? Yes, Senator, I agree with you there.

[Nicole]

But when we have confirmation hearings, people just lie.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

Also, I mean, when Rupert Murdoch and Ted Cruz are the great, like, hopes, we know we're in deep doo doo.

[Host]

Nicole.

[Nicole]

Having said that, Cruz has been remarkably.

[Host]

Consistent on this issue. Yeah.

[Nicole]

And I will say, you know, when you look at all the censorship pieces, the snowflakery on display here, we can't have late night insult. We can't have a late night host interview at a Texas Senate candidate who hasn't even won his primary yet. Like, is that really how sensitive we are? Like, we can't deal with that. It's insane. And I think that there are a whole host of people that voted for Trump in the 2024 election who look out at the landscape and see four year fourth graders and fifth graders being chased by ICE agents, who see American citizens being murdered on the streets of places like Minneapolis, who see people like Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel being censored directly by the administration, are like, this is not what we paid for. This is not what we voted for. This is not Joe Rogan wanted. And like, I don't think anything Trump is doing right now is particularly in service to the Republican Party. But you can sure bet that not only should he be listening to the news that's not good heading into the 2026 election, all of these actions to stanch that bad news from coming to his desk is only going to make for a worse outcome for the Republican Party.

[Oliver Darcy]

Wall Street Journal reports today that Levi Strauss is raising the price of blue jeans again. That's something you would think the President would want to know while he's arguing with talk show hosts.

[Nicole]

Exactly.

[Host]

Yeah. I mean, I think there is an interesting inability to see sort of beyond our noses here. I mean, the Republican primaries, Trump's a lame doc. He refused to enthusiastically endorse Rubio or what's his name, J.D. vance.

[David Frum]

What's his name?

[Host]

He couldn't remember either. And the idea that the right is going to sort of march along with all these things that are against conservative ideals that are against, I mean, Charlie Kirk was the other sort of First Amendment absolutist. This is in the manosphere. This goes along with losing culture. This is a deeply unpopular sort of hill to die on for the Trump administration.

[Oliver Darcy]

I agree.

[David Frum]

And you're seeing a lot of dissent happen now, particularly amongst the manosphere crowd where they are like, what is going on here? The Joe Rogans, Andrew Scholzes of the world, they're not on board with what Donald Trump is, is doing these days. That said, there are a lot of propagandists, and we should not forget this either, that are totally on board with all this stuff and somehow have twisted themselves into pretzels.

[Host]

Who's excited about it?

[David Frum]

Yeah, going from like the alleged free speech absolutist they were to Megyn Kelly.

[Host]

Or who, who's, who likes it?

[David Frum]

I mean, I mean, the Fox hosts, you don't really see them calling out Donald Trump for this. I mean, can you imagine Fox News for a second if Joe Biden or Barack Obama were targeting late night hosts for making fun of him? Can you imagine that we would never hear the end of that.

[Host]

Or like if Greg Gutfeld had to have, you know, Kamala Harris on every night.

[David Frum]

Oh, yes, we would never hear the.

[Oliver Darcy]

End of that show.

[Host]

I mean, it wouldn't even be laughing because it would never be a spoiler.

[Oliver Darcy]

It's cable. They're not affected by the rule. The rule only applies to this. I mean, again, the thing that's crazy about this, most of America can say what they want on whatever broadcast platform they have access to. It is just these legacy airwaves companies sure that Donald Trump watches where the right, this censorship is happening.

[David Frum]

My only point was that the double standard here is just jarring and off the charts. And I think there are a lot of people still in the MAGA sphere who are going along with Donald Trump who are cheering on this sort of thing, saying, you know, these people should be targeted. And, and that's something interesting in the right, but it's, it's also quite disturbing and I think it's highlighted how there isn't a lot of principle on the right. It turns out. It turns out that they just say stuff like, Elon Musk claimed to be a free speech absolutist, but he was fined kicking off journalists off the platform. He's fine censoring and throttling the New York Times. He's fine tweaking the algorithm to benefit himself. These people claim one thing, but their actions are really saying something totally different.

[Host]

Well, and the tragedy there is that Elon Musk said all those things not as just some guy who rocks the RNC every four years, but as the owner of X where so much disinformation is pumped into the minds of Americans, including kids.

[Nicole]

It matters. His capitulation to self serving partisan interests really actually matters. And his destruction of a public square matters. And a moment when we already so much of society is bifurcated, right. Like the last. Common public spaces are important ones to preserve. And that's why it's not just, you know, it's not just ideological inconsistency and selfishness and you know, power hungry grabs. It's also really the destruction of democracy begins with actions like this. I'm not saying Twitter was gonna save.

[Host]

Us, right, but, but it expedited our demise. If we go, you know, we're at that fork in the road and I think it's really serious. I mean, I also think you look at what happened during COVID you look at all of the axes to grind that are sort of the, where all the dust of misinformation and disinformation sort of came from on the right.

[Nicole]

I think actually Covid is a huge Rosetta Stone in terms of understanding how our society got so shattered, actually. And this builds on all of it.

[Host]

And all the things that came out and tried to break afterward. These stories are tricky and we can't do them without you. Thank you for coming here and leading us off on this today.

[David Frum]

Thank you, Nicole.

[Host]

Thank you. Thank you. You guys stick around. We should mention that both James Talarico and his primary opponent Jasmine Crocker will be on our way. Our airwaves tonight. Jasmine Crockett will sit down with my friend and colleague Jen Psaki at 9 and James Tallarico will be on with my friend and colleague Lawrence O' Donnell at 10. So there's that after the break. Donald Trump says he has nothing to hide when it comes to the Jeffrey Epstein material. Yet, yet, yet people across the entire political spectrum now saying out loud and publicly that the whole thing reeks of a cover up. We'll show it to you next.

[Oliver Darcy]

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[Nicole]

Why have we asked our contractor we.

[Host]

Found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian?

[Nicole]

Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids.

[David Frum]

We only met a month ago.

[Oliver Darcy]

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[Host]

The Trump administration is trying to declare case closed. Nothing to see here with the Epstein files, but they're just about the only people saying that. And it's not even clear if they believe that to be true. The criticisms are mounting, they're getting louder and louder and they're increasingly on the right over the mishandling on the part of Donald Trump and his cabinet of the release of the files. Listen to what right wing MAGA friendly podcaster Sean Ryan had to say about it.

[Oliver Darcy]

You're going to protect pedophiles.

[David Frum]

You're going to protect pedophiles rather than go after them and hope that everybody's happy that The Dow hit 50,000.

[Oliver Darcy]

Are you out of your mind?

[David Frum]

I guess the whole drain the swamp.

[Oliver Darcy]

Campaign promise was another lie, huh?

[David Frum]

Man, the lies are stacking up fast.

[Oliver Darcy]

I've never seen so many lies appear.

[David Frum]

In what, a year? It's only been a year.

[Oliver Darcy]

Look at all the lies.

[Host]

I mostly love him because he swears more than I do. But that's a huge deal for his audience, for the people who go to him for his take on the news. To hear that is is cannot be overstated. What a big break that is with Trump and maga. And I think he was speaking right to you, Pam, in Congress. The investigations into those lies he is referencing and what has been revealed in the Epstein files are just getting started as well. Tomorrow the House Oversight Committee will question billionaire Les Wexner who is named thousands of times in the Epstein files that have been released by the Justice Department. He was named as a possible co conspirator as well. David and Alex are still here. Are you surprised by the reaction? This feels like an issue where the permission structure was baked in before Trump was reelected because this issue was such a huge deal on the right. But even understanding that, as I've come to understand that, I am surprised by how enraged they are by the handling.

[Oliver Darcy]

I'm not surprised because you have to understand or you have to recall because you do understand it, what role the Epstein story played in the mag imagination. This is not a scandal like the Qatar jet or Trump giving taking money from the businessmen in UAE to release chips. This is a religion totally.

[Host]

It's a value statement.

[Oliver Darcy]

What MAGA people were told is there's a global conspiracy of cannibalistic satanic pedophiles that permeates the entire upper strata of American society. They're often anti Semitic overtones. This is not always, but often. But there is this vast conspiracy of blood sucking vampiric cannibals and there is one Jesus figure who is defending America against this satanic conspiracy and that is Donald Trump. Now, according to the religion, he can't tell you everything right away. But rest assured, in the darkness, Donald Trump is battling Satan. And then it turns out, actually, no, he and Satan were best friends. He's in the Satan Files a million times or whatever it is. And in fact, he's engaged. He's engaged in. It's not like a cover up of a scandal. It is the collapse of a whole system of religious belief. That was the one thing that compensated people for the true fact that Donald Trump was making their material lives in every way worse from the first moment he became president.

[Host]

I think it's also that they've made the wrong assessment. This gets back to sort of the weakness of his political information stream, that the political damage for Trump isn't just being in them, it's hiding them. Hiding them is the thing that goes against this religion and this worldview.

[Oliver Darcy]

Well, because it raises the question, in this world there are two kinds of people. People who believe the pedophile vampire story and people who are in the pedophile vampire network. So if you are not actively revealing the pedophile vampire story, what does that say? You're probably yourself a pedophile vampire. And that's a trick that the MAGA world played against Hillary Clinton. It played it against John Podesta. They played it against. That's the Pizzagate story. You either believe our religion or you are Satan. And now Donald Trump is revealing himself as a non believer in the religion. So what does that mean, Satan?

[Host]

I also think that's the inner ring that kept this story alive for the seven intervening years where it was sort of a law enforcement story and then became a political story and now it is again a law enforcement story. But I think the outer ring is people that voted for Trump because they hate the elites.

[Nicole]

Yes.

[Host]

And now, like, he's also defying the sort of religiosity of maga, but he's also offending the much bigger ring of people that swung over to him because one, they thought that the price of everything would go down and two, they thought he would be more transparent about the powerful people trafficking young girls.

[Nicole]

Totally. I mean, all due respect for those who believed in pedophile, not due respect, but pedophile vampires aside, there is a fundamental belief, and it's not necessarily wrong, that the system is rigged against common.

[Host]

Folks, especially young girls.

[Nicole]

Yes. As. Yes. And the sex crimes piece of it is the worst layer of it. But the idea that Donald Trump was going to unrig the system and drain the swamp, that was central to his message. And that is why he was elected by a larger portion of the country than just the 15 to 25% of MAGA that believe in the pedophile vampire QAnon story. Right? And he has done nothing but double down on the notion that the system exists for and by the elites. Whether it is the affordability crisis, that he has done nothing to allay the tariffs that just do not benefit the American public, immigration enforcement that is gutting the labor force that is also screwing up the American economy, to say nothing of terrorizing a large portion of this country. And then you have his behavior in and around the Epstein files. It's not as if more material comes out and there's nothing in it. More material comes out and everyone's like, why didn't we have this? Well, you're seeing resignations at the highest levels of government, European governments. Well, where's the comeuppance here?

[Host]

And American companies when you say why private business.

[Nicole]

The only person who seems intent on closing this Pandora's box is Donald Trump. It's like the man's never seen a detective story. The more you protest about nothing, it's not me, I have nothing to do. God, I'm exonerated. The more likely it is that you are actually playing a center.

[Oliver Darcy]

Here's the why, and if I can indulge just a minute of maybe irreversible, irresponsible speculation. When Donald Trump tried to keep the story closed, did he just do that because of aimless malice? Did he do that because of his own reputation? Or were these revelations a potential source of power in the past few months that he's been using? And I just wonder, the people who are in the files who have been named, some of whom have suffered very severe career ending shame, who may be on their way to criminal jeopardy, did any of them have conversations with Donald Trump? I'm saying this in a speculative way. In the past year or even before that said, you know, I could really use your help on this matter because no one would be more distressed than me if these stories about you came into public view.

[Host]

I mean, it argues though, for him to benefit politically again, I don't know why I can't care more than he does about his political. But I mean to get them all out and let the ships fall where they may. But you're right. And his, his pardon.

[Oliver Darcy]

The question is, was he pressuring people? Was he using this as a source of power to pressure people over the past few months?

[Host]

It's a fascinating question and I think at some point all this comes out, but it's a fascinating question. No one's going anywhere, as you can tell. Much, much, much, much more to get to. We'll all be right back.

[David Frum]

You know that list of 300 people that DOJ sent to the Judiciary Committee? I wish they had, next to each name, put how many times each individual was mentioned in the files, because Trump would be at near the top of that list. Thousands of mentions. We know that he has lied consistently about his long and deep relationship with Epstein. We know that Virginia Giuffre was recruited or trafficked from Mar A Lago. We know that Donald Trump lied repeatedly in saying that he kicked Epstein out of Mar A Lago. I read a redacted document, illegally redacted, in my view, where Epstein's lawyers had spoken to Trump. And Trump made it clear that he never kicked Epstein out of Mar A Lago. Why does he keep lying? Why has he done everything in his power to cover this up?

[Host]

I think some of my own viewers tire of my monitoring the manosphere, but here's why it matters to me. Because, well, one, I think Joe Rogan and everyone that is in his orbit enthusiastically backing Donald Trump over Harris was more dangerous than them just staying out. Right. I think it's why he's there. And so the fact that he's lost them completely over this issue, to me is this battle over masculinity. What is it to be a man? And I think that this story is changing that. And I think there's this sort of open window. Like, is it manly to be part of a child's sex trafficking ring?

[Nicole]

No, it is not. And then also, I would say his behavior on the other side of it is so deceitful and so in some ways weak.

[Host]

Right.

[Nicole]

That if. I mean, quite obviously, if there's nothing for him to hide, then what's he doing?

[Host]

Correct. And that's human nature. Right? Like, you don't even have to read every whiff of this story. That's an assessment of a human being.

[Nicole]

And if you go, I mean, as I have to, multiple Trump rallies, you see that there's this kind of central. As David said, there's almost a religiosity to it. The fervor. Fervor is, like, very deeply emotional. And the manosphere doesn't, I don't think, replicate that same religious fervor, but it is about Trump's character in that he was the no BS guy that was always gonna listen to his gut. And this Epstein thing has unraveled all of that because he's quite clearly at sea and at odds. He is Constantly trying to defend himself against an asshole of the truth. And that is a deeply problematic place for someone like him to be when sort of no holds barred truth telling was his M.O.

[Host]

He has lost it, his M.O. and his brand. And I think we started the hour talking about Colbert. I think Massie doesn't get enough coverage for the role he's played in all this.

[Oliver Darcy]

You know, Donald Trump does not have a reputation or a record of being someone who is a strong defender of the rights and freedoms of women. He does not got a strong record of being protective of the young women and the girls in his life, even his own children. So the argument for Epstein from the manosphere of ties was, look, he may be crude, but he'd never do that. Well, now you think, well, you know what, he said it, he joked about it. He finds it funny. Maybe he would do it. It doesn't seem so strange to imagine. It's not like the contrary where, oh my gosh, what a hypocrite. He seemed so respectful. And now this. He never seemed like a decent person.

[Host]

Yeah. At some point, all the dots only point in one direction. Thank you both so much for being here.

[Nicole]

Thank you for monitoring the manosphere for us.

[Host]

I do it so nobody else has to.

[Nicole]

Bless you.

[Host]

I've learned a lot about pyramids. I mean, the thing about the manosphere is it's all conspiracies. It's not all about Donald Trump. No. And so they really latched onto this conspiracy almost as a way into. Oh, I could go on. We'll do a hour on it. Alex Wagner, thank you. When we come back, we'll switch gears a little bit. The search for Nancy Guthrie continues with new DNA evidence for investigators to work with. We'll tell you about it next. There are some updates to tell you about Today on day 17 in the search for Nancy Guthrie, the mom of our friend and colleague, Today show host Savannah Guthrie. Police say there are no confirmed matches to the DNA evidence we told you about here yesterday from a glove that matches the one that we can see here in the surveillance video from the night of her disappearance. But they say there is additional DNA evidence from Nancy Guthrie's home that is still being analyzed. We also learned that investigators are working with Walmart to try to identify the person who purchased the backpack scene in the video and that they've been trying to locate Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker device. Still, no suspects have been named. No arrests have been made. Authorities are combing through thousands of tips and continue to ask that anyone with any information big or small. Call 1-800-Call-FBI. You could also call 911 or the Pima County Sheriff's Office at 520-351-4900. When we come back, the coach from New Jersey who went viral when he saw kids running from ICE and decided he had to speak out. Enough was enough. He joins us next right here when Deadline White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[David Frum]

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[Host]

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[Oliver Darcy]

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[Nicole]

What do I do?

[Host]

My refund though.

[Oliver Darcy]

I'm freaking out. Don't worry.

[David Frum]

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[Oliver Darcy]

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[Nicole]

I'm so relieved.

[Oliver Darcy]

No problem.

[David Frum]

I'll be with you every step of the way.

[Oliver Darcy]

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