“The corruption knows no bounds”

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Corruption Knows No Bounds"

Deadline: White House – August 3, 2026
Host: Alicia Menendez (in for Nicolle Wallace)
Guests: Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA), Sen. Claire McCaskill, Dan Kennan, Dr. Celine Gounder

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Overview

This episode examines mounting corruption and erosion of institutional integrity in the Trump White House, with a focus on a new financial scandal—Trump's "Truth API" insider trading scheme. The discussion expands to the impact on U.S. markets and national security, money laundering allegations, skewed political standards for scandal response, intractable economic problems, vaccine misinformation from a senior official, and encroachments on press freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Truth API Scheme: Institutionalized Insider Trading

[00:46–11:51]

• Revelation

  • The Trump organization has launched a "Truth API" service offering Wall Street clients early access to his own social media policy pronouncements for ~$100,000/month.
  • Major investors see this as "an insider trading subscription service" (Alicia Menendez, 00:46).
  • Democratic Senators Adam Schiff and Elizabeth Warren have written to the SEC, calling it "an outrageous abuse of the president's office for his personal benefit that undermines everyday investors and the integrity of our markets" (quoted by Alicia, 01:51).

• Legal and Ethical Concerns

  • Rep. Zoe Lofgren: “I don’t think it is [legal]. …The statute of limitations for this crime extends beyond Trump’s terms. So I think people who participate in this insider trading scheme do so at their peril.” (02:53)
  • Sen. Claire McCaskill: “Think what Martha Stewart went to jail for. …that was like playground stuff compared to this.” (05:02)

• Market and National Security Impact

  • McCaskill: "Now in big flashing lights, we’re saying to the world, you know, we’re no different than these other countries where they’re rigging things behind the curtain to make money for really rich people." (05:50)
  • Lofgren: U.S. markets’ “transparency and rule of law” are eroding, making the U.S. less trustworthy on the global stage. (06:58)

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2. Money Laundering and Financial Integrity

[11:51–14:48]

• Capital One Lawsuit
  • Trump Organization sues Capital One over closing 300+ accounts, alleging political reasons.
  • Capital One’s defense: Accounts closed for “anti money laundering reasons” (Alicia, 11:51).
  • McCaskill: “Clearly Capital One believes they have factual evidence…they would get in trouble for not closing [the accounts].” (12:44)
  • Lofgren notes Russian cash reportedly involved, raising even graver concerns. (13:43)

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3. Pay-for-Play Politics: Trump’s "Donor Lists"

[14:25–15:23]

• Wall Street Journal Report
  • Trump keeps detailed lists of donor companies to guide his political and policymaking responses.
  • Lofgren: “It’s kind of like…Duke Cunningham who had a donor’s list and ended up in prison. …Another argument why we need to get big money out of politics.” (14:48)

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4. Double Standards in Political Scandal Response

[16:50–24:07]

• Max Miller Abuse Allegation

  • Ohio Rep. Max Miller (R) accused of domestic abuse against his ex-wife (Sen. Moreno’s daughter).
  • Sen. Moreno’s public denunciation was delayed, raising questions.
  • McCaskill: “When it was a Democrat it was an accusation…sky was falling. But when it’s a Republican with an accusation—oh well, he’s fine.” (18:00)
  • Trump’s contrasting responses to accusations against Democrats vs. Republicans amplify the double standard. (21:11–21:44)

• Political Risk and Accountability

  • Dan Kennan: “There is a wealthy, powerful, corrupt force in our government led by Donald Trump and MAGA Republicans who are protecting those with money. And Max Miller is a rich kid…who has had protection all of his life…” (19:28)

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5. Voter Frustration and Polling

[25:44–29:45]

• Economic Discontent Driving Approval to Record Lows
  • Recent polls: Trump's approval at historic lows (mid-30s). (26:40)
  • McCaskill: “He…surround[s] himself with people that will tell them what they want to hear…The emperor has no clothes.” (27:47)
  • Dan Kennan: “He’s totally cloistered and that is resulting in terrible decisions on foreign policy, on economics, on politics.” (29:45)

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6. Limits of Democratic Power if Trump Remains President

[31:21–33:16]

• Democratic Options
  • McCaskill: "We’re not going to have 60 votes…he will block investigations…and it takes more than two years to enforce a congressional subpoena….Democrats need to focus and show every day they’re trying.” (31:59)

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7. Pandemic Misinformation from HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

[33:41–41:27]

• RFK Jr.’s Meltdown on Science

  • Heated CNN exchange with Dana Bash; Kennedy repeats debunked claims on vaccine safety.
  • Dana Bash: “You’re repeating it like a parrot. …I’ve actually read the science.” (34:03)
  • Dr. Celine Gounder: “This has been a tactic of his …to say, 'my study, your study, can you cite this study?' …leaving the audience really confused.” (35:11)
  • Gounder provides scientific consensus: “No increased risk of autism” from standard vaccines. (36:14)
  • McCaskill: “He’s anti-science…and he’s running the largest health organization in the world. …I tell everyone who asks me: Ask your pediatrician.” (38:07)

• Broader Public Health Fears

  • Gounder: Lack of scientific integrity increases vulnerability to future pandemics and biothreats. (40:44)

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8. Escalating War on the Press

[41:27–43:10]

• Targeting of Reporters
  • Trump-era DOJ pursuing New York Times reporter Matthew Cole seeking sources about a 2019 failed North Korea operation.
  • Raises alarm about legal intimidation and shrinking press independence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Truth API’s Corruption:

• “In another administration, this would be considered criminal.” — Anonymous Wall Street exec, relayed by Alicia Menendez, (01:34)
• "Think what Martha Stewart went to jail for... that was like playground stuff compared to this." — Sen. Claire McCaskill (05:02)
• "He just does it out in the open. And so far, he has basically gotten away with it." — Rep. Zoe Lofgren (03:59)
• "Why are they not speaking up? ...I do not get the cowardice. I really do not understand it." — Sen. Claire McCaskill on GOP silence (09:14)
• "We were successful because the rules were transparent... We can't hold that out to financial markets anymore." — Rep. Zoe Lofgren (07:40)

On Abuse & Scandal Double Standards:

• "When it was a Democrat it was an accusation…sky was falling. But when it’s a Republican…it’s just an accusation. But when it’s a Republican with an accusation—oh well, he’s fine." — Sen. Claire McCaskill (18:00)
• "Max Miller is a rich kid…who has had protection all of his life against your interests." — Dan Kennan (19:28)
• "If you can’t even be concerned about your own family, how in the world will you be concerned about theirs?" — Dan Kennan (24:07)

On Trump’s Disconnect with Reality:

• "He has somebody who follows him around showing him positive replies on his social media… They call her the human printer." — Sen. Claire McCaskill (27:47)

On RFK Jr.'s Misinformation:

• "You’re repeating it like a parrot… I’ve actually read the science." — Dana Bash to Sec. Kennedy (34:03)
• "Ask your pediatrician... Don’t listen to influencers on social media, listen to folks who actually have the expertise." — Sen. Claire McCaskill (38:07, 39:54)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Trump’s Insider Trading API & Legal Analysis: 00:46–11:51
• Capital One, Money Laundering Allegations: 11:51–14:48
• Donor Lists & Pay-to-Play: 14:25–15:23
• Max Miller Domestic Abuse Allegation: 16:50–24:07
• Polling/Economic Malaise: 26:40–29:45
• Dem Strategy if Retaking House: 31:21–33:16
• RFK Jr. on CNN & Vaccine Misinformation: 33:41–41:27
• War on the Press: 41:27–43:10

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Conclusion

This episode presents a sweeping indictment of the current White House's approach to legal, ethical, and political norms—from profiting via quasi-legal trading schemes to undermining democratic institutions, enabling public health misinformation, and ramping up attacks on press freedom. Multiple guests warn that the consequences reach beyond D.C.—jeopardizing US global standing, economic stability, and public trust in government.

The tone is urgent, at points incredulous, and always grounded in both institutional knowledge and real-time political analysis. For anyone concerned about the intersection of corruption, policy, and democracy, this episode offers an unflinching look at the stakes before the upcoming midterms.

Transcript

[Alicia Menendez]

Ever since I was young, I've watched people working hard, chasing opportunity, making sacrifices, doing everything they can to build a better life. And now we're shining a light on what matters most, our economy, our national identity, our democracy, our future. The stakes have never been higher. It's all on the line.

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On the Line with Alicia menendez Weekdays at 12:00pm Eastern on Ms. Now,

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As

[Dan Kennan]

I joked with Robert backstage, if Watergate happened tomorrow, it would be like a 12 hour news story. Like the idea that it would have taken down a presidency is crazy.

[Alicia Menendez]

Hi, everyone. It's five o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. Imagine that. Exposed corruption, taking down a presidency. It seems almost like a foreign concept nowadays, as the corruption coming out of the current White House seems seems to know no bounds. Big financial players are even buying into the latest example, paying a wild $100,000 a month for early access to Donald Trump's social media posts, hoping to gain an advantage when it comes to trading off policy pronouncements, which Trump makes frequently on his site Truth Social critics say this amounts to an insider trading subscription service. The new service called Truth API launched Saturday. NPR reports Trump's media company says customers have already signing up. Such an offering would give institutional investors a leg up in areas of finance like high frequency trading, where an advantage of a few milliseconds can mean the difference of millions of dollars. It's insane, one Wall street executive told npr, who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation from the Trump administration. I can say for myself and 200 of my friends in finance, we're not getting anywhere near this. In another administration, this would be considered criminal. Democratic senators think it's potentially criminal as well. Senators Adam Schiff and Elizabeth Warren wrote a letter to the SEC chair, who we should note was appointed by Trump, asking for an investigation. Quote, this appears to be an outrageous abuse of the president's office for his personal benefit that undermines everyday investors and the integrity of our markets while enriching Wall street and other wealthy insiders. It's a shocking revenue generating move that makes you even more money for a company that Donald Trump owns over 40% of after we already know he made $2 billion last year while he was president. And that is where we begin today with Democratic Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of California. She is a member of the House Judiciary Committee. Also joining us, political analyst former Senator Claire McCaskill is with me for the hour. It is good to see you both. Congresswoman, how is this legal?

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Well, I Don't think it is. I think they're counting on the fact that the Trump Justice Department does not pursue illegal behavior if it financially benefits President Trump. However, I think the Wall street guy who spoke anonymously does realize that the statute of limitations for this crime extends beyond Trump's terms. So I think people who participate in this insider trading scheme do so at their peril.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right. There could be legal exposure for those people who are outside of the government, participant in it. Listen, Congressman, you, as a part of the 16 committee on how Trump profited off the big lie, you have followed his other corruption scandals for the past several years. I am sorry that you have had to spend so much of your one precious life doing exactly that. But, I mean, this seems. This seems even bolder, even more brazen. And it follows the pattern of them doing it out in the open and believing that that gives them some sort of coverage. But I wonder what concerns you most about this latest enterprise?

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Well, it's just a part of the whole scheme. I mean, this guy is corrupt to his core. He's earned billions of dollars, really, at the expense of the American people. And I think his MO Is if you do it publicly, some people will think, well, it's probably not illegal because people who are committing crimes usually try and hide it. No, he just does it out in the open. And so far, he has basically gotten away with it. The Supreme Court immunized him from prosecution for official acts. The question is whether insider trading is an official act of the presidency. And that's likely to get tested as well, since the statute, as I mentioned, will not run it.

[Alicia Menendez]

Also, it occurs to me, Senator McCaskill, that he makes a lot of policy decisions or policy pronouncements via social media. This would seem to incentivize. Incentivize some of his worst instincts.

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, no, it's very clear what he's doing here. He is using his own greed to make more money, to feed the greed of people on Wall Street. And he's counting on the fact, not only that he's doing in public, that somehow that's going to give him some kind of bubble wrap of it must be okay. But he's also counting on the fact that most Americans don't understand what you mentioned in the introduction, and that is seconds can make millions if you have information before the rest of the market has it. So what these people are paying over a million dollars a year for is just to beat the rest of the market by a few minutes. And that is the essence of undermining. Market integrity. That is the essence of preying on inside. I mean, think what Martha Stewart went to jail for. I mean, you know, that was like a playground stuff compared to this. And, you know, I gotta mention this, too. I don't think people understand what this does to our global national security. And I know that the Congresswoman will back me up on this. If there's one thing we've had an advantage in terms of the dollar being the currency, it was the stability and dependability of our markets. Unlike in China, businesses wanted to come to the United States because our markets were stable, they were secure, the rules were enforced. Now in big flashing lights, we're saying to the world, you know, we're no different than these other countries where they're rigging things behind the curtain to make money for really rich people. And that's exactly what they're doing here.

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

Right.

[Alicia Menendez]

I think that's an interesting frame that the Senator puts forward, Congresswoman, which is we were talking about this as it relates to corruption, which is a common frame for us to return to. But there also here is a question of national security.

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Well, I think Senator is correct. I mean, we have enjoyed for generations being top dog financially, militarily and culturally, and all of that is now being eroded to our detriment. It's worth pointing out people don't understand insider trading, but it's a crime because somebody loses. You know, if some hotshot gets insider trading and they short the stock, somebody else is losing money. And so the. The President has taken advantage of inside information to pile up billions of dollars of money for himself. Now he's trying to cut in greed heads on Wall street so that they can participate in cheating other people in the market. It bad for other Americans, but it's also bad, as Claire has pointed out, who in the world is going to trust us? We were successful because the rules were transparent. They were certain they were organized under the rule of law. And we can't hold that out to financial markets anymore.

[Alicia Menendez]

Claire, I want to read you just a little bit from Senator Schiff and Warren's letter to the sec. They write, president Trump has used Truth Social on multiple occasions to endorse specific stocks by their ticker symbol. Last month, President Trump posted about Citigroup on Truth Social to praise the company's first quarter of 2026 performance, congratulate the CEO and call out the company's ticker number. That same day, Citigroup stock outperformed the broad market and other major bank stocks. Truth Social even advertised this new service by saying it was early access to quote, the platform's most market based moving truths. So to the point that both you and the congresswoman have made. They know what they're doing in this letter to the SEC that Senators Schiff and Warren have sent. Do you think they can have faith in the current chair of the SEC to follow up on this letter to. Yeah, go ahead. The laugh says it all, Claire, but you go ahead.

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, Hell no. They have no faith that the SEC is going to do the right thing here. They have no faith in the doj. And I'll tell you, I am so tired of talking about this on this wonderful network I'm associated with. But why aren't there any Republican senators names on that letter? I mean, come on, Tillis, come on, Cornyn, you guys aren't going to be there. You don't have to be afraid of this guy. Where's Susan Collins name on this letter? Where's Dan Sullivan who's in the race of his life in Alaska right now? Where are the Republicans on the Finance Committee that know this is outrageous conduct to enrich a public official at the public's expense? And they know that. Why are they not speaking up? What do they think this guy who's polling in the low 30s can actually do to them? The country no longer supports this guy. Why are they still afraid of. I do not get the cowardice. I really do not understand it. I'll never understand it.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, because they're busy getting pinky promises from Todd Blanche about whether or not that so called anti weaponization fund is dead. Congresswoman, I wonder if you share Claire's skepticism around doj, around the sec, and if you do in fact share that if Democrats were to take back the House in November, how you then tackle this question?

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Well, I do share Claire's view. I mean these institutions have been corrupted by the President so that they are no longer operating along the facts in the law. He knows that. That's why he did it, so he can get away with crimes. You know, I think hopefully the Senate and House will change the majority. But of course Trump will still be in the White House. And so our role will be oversight investigations, using our legislative skills to block things that are outrageous. But he'll still be there. He's got two years left on his term. Two years and plus and that's just the reality. So we're gonna, we'll have some speed bumps here. And we've also worked very successfully with state attorney generals on matters that have dual coverage when it comes to criminality or even civil actions. So will be quite busy, I'm pretty sure.

[Alicia Menendez]

I have no doubt about that. Let me add this to the list of things that will keep you busy. Claire. There was reporting from this weekend. This is from the Hill. Lawyers for Capitol One on Friday asked a federal judge to dismiss a lawsuit brought by President Trump's trust over its closing of Trump Organization affiliated accounts years ago, saying it did so only after money laundering concerns were flagged by example. While attorneys for the Trump Organization led by Donald Trump Jr. And Eric Trump have alleged Capital One closed more than 300 Trump linked accounts in 2021 over politics, lawyers for the defendants wrote in a Friday court filing that the financial institution closed the accounts, quote, for anti money laundering reasons. So you take these questions of insider trading, you've now put them side by side with money laundering. Claire?

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

Yeah.

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

Here's another thing that is a constant besides Republican cowardice. It is the facts have generally been against President Trump in court. And as Zoe knows very well, you don't go to court without facts. You don't win in court without facts. You cannot prevail if you have no evidence. And clearly Capital One believes they have factual evidence that will support that. They had a justification for closing these accounts based in the movement of money through these accounts that had the characterization of money laundering. And they would get in trouble for not closing those accounts if there is a kind of movement of funds through these accounts that would indicate money laundering. So they were really caught. Either they did what they're supposed to do under banking regulations or they did what they needed to do to keep Trump happy. And Capital One did the right thing. And obviously I think they're prepared to, to prove that in court.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congresswoman, your response to that reporting?

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Yeah, there's another possibility here. I mean, Claire is absolutely right. You go to court, if you don't have the evidence, you're not going to win. Presumably the Trump administration knew what's been reported is that Russians were giving them cash. I mean, wow. So they must have assumed that they could intimidate Capital One, that they would settle in some way because they would be bullied by Trump. A lot of people have have fallen for that and been intimidated because otherwise why would you bring a lawsuit knowing that you had these damaging facts? I mean, they were the ones that took the cash from the Russians.

[Alicia Menendez]

Wild. I want to ask you, Congressman, just before I lose you, about another financial story that we recently covered here on Deadline. You have the Wall Street Journal, they had a massive report on Trump's fundraising, how he keeps tabs on which companies donate to him. You and Claire have both raised money. You know, that's not how it works. And yet this has become status quo inside this administration.

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Well, it is. And I think most people, you know, fundraising is not something that anybody who's rational likes to do. You have to do that. We look to small donors as much as possible. But I don't even look at who donates. I don't want to know. I don't want to be influenced. And the fact that he would keep a list, it's kind of like reminds me of Duke Cunningham who had a donor's list and ended up in prison. So it's not the way it's supposed to be. And it's another argument why we need to get big money out of politics.

[Alicia Menendez]

The quote and what they put in the bottom of the screen from the article was, quote, the boss wants this money, which is really something and makes you think about the fact that he has no interest in securing any money through an appropriate appropriations process. He's only interested in through nefarious means. Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. Claire, I'm going to ask you to stick with us because when we return, Ohio's Republican senator Bernie Moreno finally breaks his silence, calling his former son in law, a Republican congressman who is accused of assaulting the senator's daughter unfit for office. But that congressman Max Miller, is not going away quietly. That's next. Also ahead, the high price of just about everything has driven Donald Trump's poll numbers to embarrassing new lows and his opponents want to keep it that way, tying the Trump administration's inability or unwillingness to rein in prices to Republicans running in the midterms. We're going to look at their latest efforts. And Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Melts down on live TV, how he reacted to being called out on the medical misinformation he continues to spread. DEADLINE White House continues after a quick break. Please stay with us.

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[Dan Kennan]

I think of myself as an advocate, not for Republicans or for Democrats, but as an advocate for the facts.

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State of Play with Peter Alexander premieres next Monday at 11am Eastern on Ms. Now,

[Alicia Menendez]

after days of silence in the wake of reports of alleged abuse by Ohio Republican Congressman Max Miller, Ohio Senator Bernie Moreno, the father of Miller's example and grandfather of their two year old child, has spoken out against his former son in law. In a lengthy post on X, Moreno wrote this, quote, it has Been horrific to watch this play out in full public view, all while knowing an innocent two year old girl is caught in the middle. Our priority has always been protecting our daughter and our granddaughter. Out of concern for the safety of my family, I hope to keep this matter private. But Max Miller's increasingly erratic and dangerous behavior has made that impossible. If there are any basic standards of character required to hold elected office, Max Miller fails them. He should not serve in the House of Representatives. Miller has repeatedly denied the allegations leveled against him, has vowed to remain in Congress and stay in the race to keep his seat this November. He's also sued his ex wife for defamation. Let's bring in Democratic strategist Dan Kennan, who served as battleground director for the Harris Walls campaign. Claire is still with me. Claire, why did it take so long for Senator Moreno to get here?

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

Well, it said in the article I read that his daughter didn't want him to publicly do this, which is an interesting fact to consider. And maybe she was thinking in the long run him losing his job would be of detriment to her daughter. But frankly, I think this, she's probably supported by her father. I think that he has great wealth and I think he probably supports her and her child. So I don't get it. I don't get any of this. And I think the part I don't get the most is all these Republicans saying, well, it's just an allegation. Well, what do they think the stuff against Platner was? I don't recall him being convicted in any court. I don't recall him being found guilty of anything. But it was just an accusation. But when it was a Democrat it was an accusation. You know, the sky was falling. But when it's a Republican with an accusation, oh well, he's fine. What Jim Jordan said, he's a fine man, he should be reelected. I hope he wins.

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

Right?

[Alicia Menendez]

I mean, I think what Dan, what Claire is pointing out is there is undeniably a political cross pressure here as Republicans try to hold on to their very slim majority. If you have Senator Moreno sharing these comments and you have someone like Max Miller who I believe won with about 51%, only 51% of the vote in his last election two years ago, does that then begin to scramble that race? And if you are Speaker Johnson, how nervous does that begin to make you?

[Dan Kennan]

Well, I think quite nervous. But Claire, to answer your question on how they took this line to get there and the asymmetrical approach between Democrats and Republicans, there's a common thread in our politics right now. In your previous discussion on the corruption is part of it. There is a wealthy, powerful, corrupt force in our government led by Donald Trump and MAGA Republicans who are protecting those with money. And Max Miller is a rich kid, Alicia, who has had protection all of his life against your interests, frankly. And there's this common thread between both his behavior, which is abhorrent and not in keeping with what any standard should be for elected office and public service, but also with the dereliction of duty back home. I mean, Ohio is the place with the most folks who have unenrolled from the Affordable Care act exchange. 161,000 Ohioans have fallen off that exchange because of the skyrocketing cost, because of the big beautiful bill and the cuts that were made because Trump wanted to fund again, a tax cut for billionaires. And so this corrupt government that protects itself, that uses that bullying and that financial leverage to achieve its own means against the interests of constituents, is at play here. And is it obviously no fit to be in office? And if this behavior is exposed the way it should be, then he should lose his race.

[Alicia Menendez]

I want to address your analysis in two parts. First, by talking about that asymmetric playing field that you referenced, because I want you to take a listen to the president talking about what is happening with Miller and compare it with to the way he reacted to what happened with Graham Platter.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

He's a thug and they're trying to make excuses for him. I mean, he's worse than any human being that's ever run for office, probably. Well, it's a very sad thing. I know Max. He's a good person. I mean, I always thought he was a very good person. And I'm going to let the families figure that out. You know, those families, I know they're working on it. It's a very sad thing, especially when you know somebody so well to be going through that. But it's accusations and I'm going to let them figure that out.

[Alicia Menendez]

So a lot of empathy he was able to muster there, Claire.

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, exactly what I was talking about. And the American people see this. The voters that are the ones who voted for Barack Obama and Donald Trump see this. The voters who decide majorities who are not allegiant to any one party or the other, those voters are really in play. And they're going to not only be in play in November, they're really going to be in play in 2028. And when they do this, when they ignore a serious allegation of domestic violence and assault, and they just ignore it and say it's an accusation. And they do it just the opposite when it's accused of a Democrat. Those independent voters, those voters see that, and it does encourage them to vote for the R in any congressional race. I think the Miller race is the least of their problems at this point. I think they've got a lot of problems all over the country in districts that are, frankly, closer than this one should be.

[Alicia Menendez]

All right, Dan, I told you I wanted to go back to another point that you made, which is the point you were making about Ohio voters themselves, what's at stake for them. Our colleague Alex Tabet was able to talk to some of those voters, take a listen to what they had to say.

[Dana Bash]

We gotta get these predators out of Washington. We can't let them in. They do wrong. They shouldn't be in there.

[Voter/Caller]

He owed it to his wife, his daughter and his grandchild weeks, months ago to speak on that. And I agree with what he said, but I don't know that he does. What took him so long? Why is this. This movement that you're a part of and that Max Miller is also a part of? Why is that movement more important than your family, your daughter, your grandchild?

[Alicia Menendez]

I mean, clearly the second voter there, Dan, is talking about Moreno, not Miller. But it seems as though these two narratives have sort of woven together in a way that is now inextricable.

[Dan Kennan]

Yeah, it's really well said. I mean, I think that sort of shocked all of us when that first statement came out a few days prior from Moreno on this. I mean, look, voters and what you see online, it's so easy to pigeonhole people in the silos and their camps. And we run these things through a partisan lens or a MAGA lens, you know, a progressive lens, Democrat, Republican lens. But at the end of the day, there's lots of people, a lot of them, in battleground states and states around the country, who can just sort of see what is true and what is offensive because they have eyes, and they can see plain as day that this behavior is wrong. They can see plain as day that it's a different standard. They can see plain as a. The president himself has been corrupted by this kind of behavior and is guilty of it himself, literally guilty of it in civil court, and they can see the effect of their lives. Maybe most importantly, because every poll, poll after poll after poll shows that voters are so angry with this president or with Republicans, you know, high 30% approval, even in a place like Ohio, that was pretty red and the biggest driver of that is not just the economy, but it's the lack of attention to the concerns that they have. And if you can't even be concerned about your own family, how in the world will you be concerned about theirs?

[Alicia Menendez]

Dan, you once again jumped ahead of me, and I am grateful that you did. So I'm going to ask you both to stay. And when we return, we're going to talk about this, how Donald Trump's critics are making sure his record low poll numbers stay that way.

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Little Timmy's arms are getting tired.

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[Alicia Menendez]

That very cheeky ad put out by Home of the Brave. Just one new way of coping with the affordability crisis that has driven Donald Trump's polling ratings to embarrassing new lows reflects a deep dissatisfaction the voters are feeling. A string of recent polls show Donald Trump with the support of only one third of the country, 34% approval in a CNN poll, 33% approval in an Associated Press poll. And just 32% of voters polled by Quinnipiac approve of the job Donald Trump is doing as president. We are back with Dan and with Claire. Claire. Peter Baker of the New York Times pointed out that Trump's unpopularity for a second term president at this point in their term is unprecedented. It was only Richard Nixon who resigned, of course, due to Watergate, who was lower. Clearly there are folks inside the administration that know that these numbers are a problem, that know that affordability is clearly not a word that Democrats made up. It is something that is being felt by the American people. But it's kind of telling Claire that they don't seem to be changing course three months out from midterms.

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, you know, I've seen this before, not to this extent, but somebody gets in office and they surround themselves with people that will tell them what they want to hear, that will boost them up every day because that's what makes their jobs easier. That never tells the leader that they are wrong, that they are mistaken, that the facts are otherwise. They simply just do. The emperor has no clothes. And that's what's going on in this White House. And I actually think that Trump, he is probably worried about the polling, but he also has convinced himself, I think that that can't be true because he has somebody that follows him around, Alicia. He has somebody who follows him around showing him positive replies on his social media print out. They call her the human printer. And she follows him around all day and shows him, look what wonderful things they're saying about you, dear leader. So when you have that kind of altered reality, it's very hard to let it sink in that the only person who is more unpopular than you are right now was Richard Nixon. And that was a mere month before he resigned from office.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, Dan, as though Prem Kaskill has a little camera set up inside the Oval Office because this is what the President posted this morning and quote, my all caps real polling numbers are the best they have ever been. Why does that matter for Americans? It matters because if he is not tethered to reality, to the economic pain that they are feeling. I mean, I think that ad from Home of the Brave got it really right. This is all anybody wants to talk about. How the price of beef, the price of gas, everyone is feeling it across the economic spectrum. But it is a problem for all of us if the President of the United States does not believe that that is the reality and is not feeling the political pressure to do something about it.

[Dan Kennan]

Oh yeah, well said. And it's, it's not confined to the economic space or polling. I mean, I think it's pretty evident to all of us as, as just observers that Venezuela and the extraction Maduro felt easy to him. Never mind what's going to come next, you know, in, in Latin America. But, but the idea that that was so easy, I think helped him get to this place of, of invading Iraq or Iran, excuse me, and beginning this conflict which has now caused tremendous national security upheaval, a dangerous situation in the Middle east and, and just absolutely skyrocketing fuel prices and prices of goods and, and all kinds of things back at home. And all it takes is someone sticking in front of him a, a, a picture of one gas station somewhere, you know, with lower gas prices for him to believe that it's all fine because he is surrounded by folks in this bubble. In fact, he's on his own social media network because he can't be on the other platforms to actually hear what people are saying in the real world. So, no, he's totally cloistered and that is resulting in terrible decisions on foreign policy, on economics, on politics. And it's both bad for him because he's not adjusting politically to what the reality is on the ground. But it's dangerous for Americans because he can convince himself of anything. And he surrounds himself, as Claire said, with sycophants. I mean, in the first term at least, he had General Kelly and he had folks that would tell him no and try to check his worst impulses. And now what's basically what I think of as like the my pillow guy caucus around him. And that's creating a just tremendous, I, I think dangerous situation for all of us.

[Alicia Menendez]

Claire, I just want to do a quick thought exercise here, which is if Democrats take back the House, say they even take back the Senate, there will be an expectation that they are going to somehow get a handle on this economy. I think part of the challenge is, is that a lot of the economic headwinds are coming from the president's own policies, his tariffs, his war of choice with Iran. So if you are congressional Democrats and you do in fact have the majority in one or both chambers, what is sort of your first order of business to try to get this economy back on track? Understanding that so much of it is actually about reining in the executive authority of this president.

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

Well, you just have to first of all be very disciplined about the message and the priorities you talk about. The American people will see if you're trying. They will also see when Donald Trump is blocking you, for example, you know, getting something passed by reconciliation that the president then tries to veto or that his OMB tries to, you know, the guy over there tries to stop the spending in the ways that might relieve some of the pain the Americans are feeling right now. But you bring up a good point, and I think it's one that we probably ought to talk about a little more often and that is everyone's expectations needs to understand the math is still going to be the math. We're not going to have 60 votes in this and we are not going to have enough votes to override a veto. So it is and he will block investigations, he will tell his people not to respond to subpoenas. And it takes more than two years to enforce a congressional subpoena. So there is going to be some frustration on the part of people that elect these Democrats in November because it isn't going to get better right away. So the Democrats are really going to have to focus, be disciplined and show every day they're trying to do their very best for the things that the American people really care about and do

[Alicia Menendez]

that expectation management that you referenced. Dan Kennan, thank you so much for joining us today. Claire, I'm going to ask you to stick with us a little longer because when we return, a medical meltdown of epic proportions. What happened when Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Was confronted with the facts about vaccines and the pandemic? It was not pretty,

[Dana Bash]

Dana. Now, you probably don't understand this because you're not a scientist, but Jesus.

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

Well, you're not either.

[Dana Bash]

Do you see your job as ending vaccine hesitancy or do you see your job as telling the truth to the American people?

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

I see my job as telling the truth. And the truth is that there is study after study after study. It's one of the most studied things out there in science.

[Dana Bash]

You're repeating it like a parrot. You're repeating it like a parrot. I've actually read the science. Let's use it here and debate the science.

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

I'm not debating this view.

[Dana Bash]

Of course you.

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

No, because I'm not debating.

[Dana Bash]

All you had to do is repeat things that people told you and say trust the experts.

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

You're talking about studies that actually don't exist. I want to talk about.

[Dana Bash]

Cite me the study that you're talking about it. I am not here to see me the study.

[Interjecting Commentator (possibly Alicia Menendez or Dan Kennan)]

This is not productive.

[Alicia Menendez]

How can you describe that other than an alarming and erratic display that was. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Attempted to spread health misinformation over the weekend. Kennedy attacked CNN's Dana Bash for questioning the data he presented, attempted to spread incorrect information about vaccines and tried to smear Dr. Anthony Fauci for a fact check. Let's bring in Dr. Celine Gounder. She is a professor of medicine and infectious diseases. This is NYU's medical school and an editor at large for KFF Health News. Claire is still with me. Where to begin, Dr. Gounder, what was the most dangerous thing you heard there?

[K]

Well, I think the most dangerous thing is this debate going back and forth about citing studies. This is where, frankly, I WISH they had Dr. Sanjay Gupta doing that interview, somebody who could have fact checked Secretary Kennedy in real time. This has been a tactic of his in numerous different interviews to say, you know, my study, your study can can you cite this study? And unfortunately, you know, somebody like Dana Bash, as well as she handled that interview, is not gonna have those details at her fingertips. And so it leaves the audience really confused.

[Alicia Menendez]

Okay, but talk to me too about the fact that he is going out there questioning childhood vaccines for Covid. She pushes him and he sort of begrudgingly admits that parents should vaccinate their children against measles when measles is at a 35 year. I mean, just the spread of that information, the platforming of that information coming from someone like RFK Jr. What does that do to the public health community?

[K]

Well, let's actually go through some of the studies that should have been cited in that CNN interview. So for example, with respect to the eight vaccines that are given in a baby's first six months of life, he was saying, has that ever been studied for a link to autism? So in 2013, CDC researchers published in the Journal of Pediatric compared 256 children with autism to 752 children without. They added up the total exposure from each shot the child got. And they looked at three different age cutoffs. They looked at three months, seven months, two years and they found no increased risk of autism. Three years earlier, that same group published in Pediatrics in 2010 on the Mercury preservative thimerosal. And they looked at birth to one month and then birth to seven months. So including that six month period Secretary Kennedy was referring to, and they found no increased risk of autism at either age. And those were not being pulled diagnosis being pulled from billing codes. Each autism case was in fact confirmed by a standardized in person evaluation.

[Alicia Menendez]

I have two children, Claire. I know you have a lot of grandchildren. Parents are so anxious. We have so much we have to worry about and we are trusting experts constantly for good information and for guidance. And I get that there is a subset of people who find his skepticism appealing, but I have to imagine that there are even more of us who are upset and frustrated and angry. That in addition to all of the basic anxieties we have as parents and grandparents, we have to add to it the fact that we're now sending our children into environments where other parents are making different choices because they're being led by people who purport to know the science, who it seems have never even read the studies themselves.

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, it is very frustrating that this man was given this job and that he was confirmed. It was well documented how he felt about vaccines. He's anti science and he's anti vaccine and he's running the largest health organization in the world. This is a problem. And he is irresponsible. He is clearly wants to be the center of attention. He was willing to pay any price to do so, including to check some of his instincts, for example, about climate and the environment. This is a guy who was a warrior for environmental issues and now he is serving a president who's shutting down every attempt to try to protect our environment. And he's okay with it as long as he's getting attention. It is so damaging. And you're right, parents are really in a bind here because. And I would. I would. Here's what I tell my children and here's what I tell everyone who asks me. Ask your pediatrician. Find a pediatrician you trust and ask your pediatrician. And take your pediatrician's advice. They have read the studies that the doctor just referred to. They understand the power of vaccines. They understand disease prevention in children. They understand how it works. Don't listen to your neighbor. Don't listen to somebody at the Little League game Friday night. Don't listen to rfk. Listen to your doctors. And your doctors will in fact steer you. And there may be a few outliers. I'm not saying there aren't some doctors that are crazy about this, but most of the doctors are grounded in science. They've trained for years in it, and they will give you the right advice.

[Alicia Menendez]

I think that is sound advice that you were giving your own children. Claire. I would add to that. Don't listen to influencers on social media. Listen to folks who actually have the expertise and the degrees. Dr. Gandhi. The other part of the interview that I found particularly alarming was that Dana Bash asked Kennedy about sort of preparation for a future pandemic. And his baseline answer was something about the constitutional rights of people who don't want vaccine mandates. But he was not actually able to articulate the lessons learned and the ways in which the current administration is or isn't preparing for a future pandemic. That would seem to me when you think about the long tail damage that an administration that does not follow the science can do, where we are likely to feel the repercussions of this period for the longest period of time, yeah,

[K]

this is very concerning because our risk of having another natural spillover event from wildlife into humans. This is something we've seen repeatedly over time. Whether you're talking about HIV or Ebola or mers. Covid is just the most recent one. And we know it will happen again and again and again. You know, many of us who are experts in this field of infectious diseases and epidemiology. We assume there's going to be another pandemic in the next decade or so. And so whether it is a natural event or a bioweapon, that's another threat we are many of us very concerned about. Now, the combination of AI and synthetic biology really creates a novel threat here for which we need tools like vaccines and antiviral.

[Alicia Menendez]

Dr. Celine Gounder, thank you so much for your expertise and for spending some time with us today. Senator Claire McCaskill, thank you so much for spending the hour with me. I realize I Hotel California ed you. So thank you for your time ahead for us. The Trump DOJ opens a new front in its war on the press. Gonna sneak in a quick break and then we'll be right back. It's becoming habit for this administration to use the legal system to intimidate reporters. And even after the Justice Department dropped its subpoenas against New York Times reporters over their Air Force One reporting, a new report from the Times reveals they haven't stopped trying. The Times now reports that a freelance reporter has been fighting a subpoena from the Trump administration since February. It's seeking to force him to reveal his sources for a New York Times article published last fall about a failed top secret mission in North Korea in 2019 left two or three unarmed North Koreans dead. The Times writes this, quote, FBI agents showed up at the New York home of the reporter Matthew Cole to deliver the grand jury subpoena which was issued by prosecutors in Newport News, Virginia. According to the people familiar with the matter who described the private conversations on the condition of anonymity, the Times is providing Cole with legal defense and we are going to stay on that story. Thank you so much for spending part of this Monday with us. We are very grateful Nicole's going to be back here tomorrow. And don't forget to check out her conversation with former acting FBI Director Brian Driscoll on the best people you can catch me, weekdays, noon to 2pm Eastern for on the Line. And tomorrow, join Rachel Maddow and our entire primetime team for special coverage of the last big primary night before November's midterms. That's Tomorrow night at 8pm Eastern, home

[Senator Claire McCaskill]

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