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Deadline: White House
“The destruction of the East Wing”
00:46:24
Nicolle Wallace on the Arizona Attorney General suing Speaker Johnson, new images of the demolition of the East Wing, and the redistricting plan in North Carolina.
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- [00:01]
Nicole Wallace
When work gets crazy, I like to.
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MSNBC Announcer
Stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones.
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Nicole Wallace
I don't drink at all until 4 o'.
- [00:08]
Christy Greenberg
Clock.
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MSNBC Announcer
We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night. Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink to Drink more@rethinktodrink.com no H A Initiative Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start.
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Nicole Wallace
Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have.
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MSNBC Announcer
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Nicole Wallace
Download today Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in New York right now as we come on the air, there are 800,000 people in the state of Arizona who are right now being deprived of full representation in Congress thanks to House Speaker Mike Johnson's refusal to swear in their Congresswoman elect Adelita Grijalva. Mike Johnson has double and triple and quadrupled down on his refusal to seek Grijalva. He is claiming that he's following House traditions, swearing in members only during regular sessions. Except that isn't his own tradition. As with many things MAGA Republicans, there's an obvious and clear double standard staring us in the face when Republicans are the ones who win and would benefit. Mike Johnson, as he did in April, swore in two new House GOP members during a pro forma session. Watch Will Representatives elect Fine and Petronas and members of the Florida delegation present themselves in the well as all members rise and the Representatives elect, will you please raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same that you take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that you will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which you are about to enter, so help you God?
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MSNBC Announcer
I do.
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Nicole Wallace
Congratulations. You're now members of the 119th Congress. See Mike, you can do it. That oath was administered when they were not in session and importantly, within 24 hours of those Republicans victories. Now, almost a month after Representative Eli Grijalva's victory to represent her late father's district, the state of Arizona is taking legal action. Arizona's Attorney General, Chris Mays has filed a lawsuit against Mike Johnson for blocking Grijalva from being sworn in to do the job she was elected to do. He argues that, quote, constitutional rights cannot be used as a bargaining chip. Attorney General Mays adds in a piece for msnbc, this quote, this isn't just an attack on the voters of Arizona's 7th district. It's an affront to every American who has a constitutional right to representation in Congress. Let's be blunt. This is taxation without representation, the very injustice that sparked the American Revolution 250 years ago. As for Mike Johnson's motives for breaking his own very recent precedent and refusing to seat Grijalva, a Democratic representative, we're left to guess. But we do know that Grijalva has promised publicly to be the pivotal 218th signature on the House's bipartisan Epstein discharge petition. The filing from Arizona's Attorney General states this quote, Speaker Johnson has not identified any valid reason for refusing to promptly seat Ms. Grijalva. Instead, on information and belief, Speaker Johnson wishes to delay seating Ms. Grijalva to prevent her from signing a discharge petition that would force a vote on the release of the Epstein files and or to strengthen his hand in the ongoing budget and appropriations negotiations. That is where we start today. I want to bring in Representative elect Adelita Grijalva of Arizona. Also joining me at the table, former criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst, the host of the YouTube show Courtside. Christy Greenberg is here joining us as well, Tara Palmieri. She writes the Red letter on Substack and has hosted two acclaimed podcast series on the topic called Broken Jeffrey Epstein, Empower the Maxwells. Representative Alex Grijalva. Just take us inside your current state of limbo.
- [05:02]
Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva
It's basically, we have access to what was my dad's office will be my office until December of 2026. We have keys, we have, I have a laptop, but we don't have access to any of the databases that are important. And respectfully, I can't serve constituents until I'm sworn in and actually have constituents.
- [05:26]
Nicole Wallace
Have you had any conversations with Speaker Mike Johnson about why he saw to it to swear in to Republican representatives when Congress wasn't in session, but won't see it, see to it to swear you in.
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Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva
You know, I, I heard him say, no. There has been no direct conversation with me and Speaker Johnson. He's made flippant comments and sort of, you know, these explanations that are. And excuses that are debunked on a regular basis. But what he said is that the Florida, the two members from Florida scheduled an appointment for that, for them to be sworn in, which I'm like, how do I sign up for that gig? And that he. They brought in their families, and so that's why they made the exception. But so if I sign up and bring in my family, will he swear me in? No. He's basically continued to make excuses about why I'm not sworn in and has not made any effort to communicate those to me directly.
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Nicole Wallace
Have you, like, walked into his office and tried to ask him for one of those appointments?
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Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva
Well, we did go down. I went with a couple of friends to his office to try to get some attention. He wasn't there. And I respectfully don't know when he is there. I did call. I've left two messages. I, we sent a letter and then AG May sent a demand letter. I did recently, just yesterday, receive a call from his chief, you know, to sort of. Because I called and said, can we. Do we schedule a meeting? Or how does this happen? Then he gave me the number to another chief to schedule something. But at this point, now that the lawsuit has been filed, it's probably better for me not to have any direct communication with him outside of legal counsel.
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Nicole Wallace
Would you. Is the lawsuit intended for a court and a judge to require him to swear you in and would you drop the lawsuit if he proceeded and swore you in?
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Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva
Well, and this is so this is for Attorney General Mays like to weigh in, but our big issue is swear her in. Give us a date. And that's why I think, you know, people have been asking, well, why did we take so long? Well, one, my now my race is certified. And once that happened, then Attorney General Mays, I think, started looking at, okay, so what are the other reasons? Because being in a shutdown does not preclude swearing people in because there was a whole class in 2019 that were sworn in during a shutdown. I mean, I've met with many members of Congress that were sworn in in a special. It's pretty common and it's supposed happen fairly quickly. So this stalling is just really highlighting, you know, why Speaker Johnson is doing this. And the other is it's just blatant obstruction.
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Nicole Wallace
What is your sense of how desperate he is to avoid this vote on the discharge petition?
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Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva
Well, we do know that Speaker Johnson ended cases early to avoid, I mean, send everyone home a week early in order to avoid having this vote on the House floor. So I do think that even if I sign that discharge petition, there is going to be some sort of, in Spanish, we call them movidas, like something that's going to happen to sort of preclude those files being released. But really, the survivors need justice and those that are implicated in that information and those files need to be brought to justice.
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Nicole Wallace
Let me bring in my colleagues here, Tara Palmeri. The survivors and the victims have not been silenced, and the public support for them and what they want is aligned. 81% of Americans believe Donald Trump is hiding something in the Epstein files. And they believe his leaders at the Department of Justice are involved in a cover that has not gone away with Mike Johnson preventing the 218th vote and swearing in. Congresswoman Grijalva, what is your sense of what is happening maybe that we can't see during this standoff?
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Tara Palmeri
Actually, Nicole, I think it's only growing, the desire for the files to be released. I think Virginia Giuffre's memoir and the headlines that are coming out and the repercussions that they're feeling in the UK There are a lot of questions about why in this country where people are protesting about no kings, you're seeing the monarchy in, in the UK suffering more as a result of what's inside of the Epstein files than what's happening in the U.S. but the sense is that there are people that are being protected and departments that are being protected, like the Department of Justice. I think if the Epstein files are revealed, you'll understand about why Jeffrey Epstein continued to get away with crime starting back in 19, in the early 1990s when he was involved in a Ponzi scheme, one of the biggest Ponzi schemes at the time, $300 million. His partner, Stephen Hoffenberg, went to jail for the rest of his life. Jeffrey Epstein helped the prosecutors and he got to be. He was, you know, he lived for many, many years without facing any arrest. And then he only spent 13 months in a prison for, for sex trafficking. But you help prosecutors in a Bear Stearns case. I mean, I think that they're afraid of opening Pandora's box. But Virginia's book has already started to do that, and the pressure is going to be too intense.
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Nicole Wallace
Let me play some sound from the author, the co author of the late Virginia Giuffre's memoir, and we'll talk about that. Here it is. How could the information, the names in.
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Christy Greenberg
The files, help survivors of Epstein and Maxwell?
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Nicole Wallace
Well, for one thing, it could Stop putting the impetus on the survivors, on Virginia's book, on me, to name the names. Why should the survivors who have bravely come forward and name the names to law enforcement have to keep on pushing it? Law enforcement should take over. The Department of Justice should take over. And soi mean the names are in the files. I know from Virginia the names that she told the FBI. So you don't need the victims to keep on talking about it. And frankly, you don't need Ghislaine Maxwell to be interviewed in prison about it. I mean, Tara, this seems to be the piece that the public intuits. The victims of any crime in a functioning society go to law enforcement and report their crimes. Investigators seek to corroborate those anecdotes to give the accused their due process. It has been years and years. The accused received a sweetheart deal. The victims have received nothing. I mean, what do you see as changing or potentially changing this dynamic?
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Tara Palmeri
Well, I think that Amy put a really good point out there that the, the onus is on these victims to tell their story over and over and over again and face potential lawsuits, defamation. They've already told the FBI the story. Virginia Giuffre was brought into the FBI headquarters and shown pictures of girls underneath men, video footage that they had pictures. And she actually said to them, that's not me. That's not my body. Those, that. And, and they have the evidence. And if you, you know, her files, there are tons of redactions, but you can see them online. They're in the Epstein vault right now. There are names behind those redactions. They have all of the evidence, but the, the, the victims are witnesses. They are evidence. They are the truth, but they are not even being asked to testify before Congress. You know, Alex Acosta admits he never read the witness statements. Kash Patel, who's one of the top law enforcement officials, says he hasn't read their statements. Nobody cares about what happened to them. That's not considered evidence here, Christy.
- [14:03]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I guess the difference here is that once sworn in, Congresswoman Elect Grijalva will be the 218th vote. There is bipartisan support for congressional action requiring the release of the files. And the public cares about it. 81% of the public is interested in knowing what Donald Trump is covering up by keeping them secret. And even Jim Comer. I'm not going to play this, but I do want to tell you what Republican Representative Jim Comer said yesterday. He said, quote, the evidence we gather does not implicate President Trump in any way. Public reporting Survivor testimony and official documents show that Bill Clinton had far closer ties to Epstein. Okay, then show us. I mean, even their spin and deflection argues for releasing the files.
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Christy Greenberg
Right? I mean, Representative Comer's statement is so expected. Right. This is Donald Trump's playbook that we saw from his trial. Right. Catch and kill anything negative about him. That's why we're not releasing the Epstein file, because his name is in there. And then try and present any stories that are positive about him. That was when we got Bill Barr exonerating him, even though Bill Barr didn't. Wasn't briefed on the investigation to be able to do that. That's when we got Ghislaine Maxwell being interviewed. And that being. They made that public, they knew how to share that with the class. Right, so. And again, that. Why? Because that was helpful to Donald Trump. So you've got the positive story there. And then the last piece of the playbook is negative stories about political enemies. And now we are hearing Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton. And look, I suspect that if they had real evidence against Bill Clinton, we would be hearing more. Instead, they want to talk to him behind closed doors. So this whole hearing, what the Oversight Committee is doing, it's just. It's a sham. It's a show hearing. And I think that what I would like to see is you had last month a number of those victims, when they. When they took to the steps outside of Capitol Hill, they said they were compiling their own list. And should they have to continue to tell their story, should they have to share that information and subject themselves to risk? No, of course they shouldn't. But if they were responding to a request from members of Congress to share names and share information that they had, and they did so willingly, I would think that it would make it much harder to then come at them with defamation lawsuits. They're responding to official requests, and any member of Congress, whether you're a majority or minority, can make those requests for voluntary information. So why don't the members of Congress do that? Again, I don't think we're going to see the Epstein files. There are too many people in power in the Department of Justice and Donald Trump who clearly don't want us to see them. But members of Congress can ask for that information, and then they can make referrals to the Department of Justice with the information that they've compiled. They can say, hey, look at the following people. Just like the Republican members are doing all of these, frankly, sham referrals for criminal investigations. So can the Democrats and those who actually care about getting to the truth here.
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Nicole Wallace
It's interesting the Republicans are using the tactic where the evidence doesn't support the referral. Your point is the victims themselves, the survivors, have corroborated accounts, and they could be. They could be called or subpoenaed as witnesses by Congress. I want to ask you about the lawsuit that we started the hour with from the Attorney General of the state of Arizona. Where does that go? And is it likely to be successful and is it likely to be quick?
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Christy Greenberg
It should be quick, and it should be successful. I mean, it's a slam dunk. There's no question here about whether or not she was duly elected. She's been certified. She got close to 70% of the vote. So, I mean, when you're quibbling over whether to administer her, the oath, to swear her in, I mean, this is a formality. It matters. She's right that it matters, and it needs to happen. But this is not something that it should take long. He has no reason for not doing it. He's clearly playing games here. And I think this is the kind of thing that people are sick of. Like, it's just. It's so ridiculous. Seat her. And I think what the lawsuit is saying, they're asking for two things. One, declare her to be the duly elected member of Congress, Declare her to have that seat, and then declare that anybody can administer this oath. There's nothing special about Mike Johnson, where it has to be him. Anybody could do it. The court can declare that, and then we can move on.
- [18:32]
Nicole Wallace
Representative elect, has this been a. I mean, what a weird way to begin your time in Congress? What have you learned over the last 30 days that maybe surprises even you, having obviously known what your father's experience was in this body?
- [18:51]
Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva
You know, I've been in elected office for 22 years. This system here is pretty broken. It surprises me the ease of. By which people mislead and lie. Like, it's just. I mean, there are certain things that I was at, and then to hear them spun in a way that does not relate at all to reality has been very. A little unnerving. But I have to say, the caucus members that have welcomed me, people have been so kind. And there are some really genuine people here that just want to do good work for their community. So I am very heartened by that. And I wish that we could all just get on with working towards minimally health care for the American people. But, you know, I have to keep fighting for the things that people elected me to do. While I'm here, which is fighting for our democracy and make, you know, help to keep this nation looking like the nation we grew up in. I mean, I have three children. I want to protect it for them and for generations to come. And where we are now is a very scary time and in our nation and we have to protect the people that cannot speak up for themselves.
- [20:03]
Nicole Wallace
It is just stunning to see Mike Johnson swearing in when the House wasn't in session. Republicans and there you are, ready and willing to go to work for your constituents and he won't see to it to swear you in. Representative Electric Halva, thank you for your time. Chrissy and Tara, thank you for starting us off. We'll stay on top of the story when we come back. Donald Trump has pledged that the East Wing would not be touched by construction. But now you can see with your own eyes live pictures, much of the White House is being torn down, the entire East Wing as a point of fact. Our friend and colleague Jen Psaki, who of course served as White House press secretary, joins us next. Also head of Republican abuse of power, so blatant and so dangerous to our democracy. Some of the biggest names in politics are stepping up and getting involved. How the Democratic Party is countering the GOP's rigging of the game. And later in the broadcast, a new effort on Capitol Hill by Donald Trump's top loyalist to prosecute another of his so called political enemies. Former CIA Director John Brennan joins us on this latest weaponized move now by Republicans in the House of Representatives. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [21:30]
MSNBC Announcer
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with former White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci. We are a beautiful, colorful mosaic of.
- [21:45]
Nicole Wallace
People and we are exactly what Lincoln said, the last best hope for mankind.
- [21:49]
MSNBC Announcer
The Best People with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access, ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your fav the.
- [22:40]
Jen Psaki
Second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
- [22:45]
MSNBC Announcer
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- [23:04]
Nicole Wallace
I hate to say this, but you are looking at a live picture of something that's actually happening. Destruction of the East Wing of the White House. Demolition taking place right now at the White House on Donald Trump's orders to make space for Donald Trump's 90,000 square foot ballroom. That number doesn't even make sense if you're a human living on Earth one, but it is bigger than everything that is on the complex now, almost twice as big. Our colleague Vaughn Hilliard first reported on Monday on this show that the entire East Wing will be torn down in this demolition. We're now seeing what that means and what that looks like. And to say these are upsetting views of the destruction of the People's House might be an understatement. If you've ever been to Washington on a field trip or wanted to go after watching Forrest Gump or the American President or the movie Dave, or just thought it was one of those things that would kind of always be there. New York Times is reporting this hour that the demolition will be done. They'll be done destroying the East Wing by the end of the weekend. It is a reversal even from what Donald Trump had promised to do to the structure of the White House in service of his own vanity project. Watch.
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MSNBC Announcer
It won't interfere with the current building.
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Nicole Wallace
I won't be.
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MSNBC Announcer
It'll be near it but not touching it. And pays total respect to the existing building, which I'm the biggest fan of.
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Nicole Wallace
So even Donald Trump thought it was important to tell that lie, to say that they wouldn't touch the building that he was, quote, the biggest fan of, end quote. The National Trust for Historic Preservation is warning in a letter sent yesterday that the planned 90,000 square foot ballroom, quote, will overwhelm the White House itself, which is about 55,000 square feet. According to the White House website, all public tours are suspended indefinitely due to Trump's construction. Joining our coverage, my colleague and friend Jen Psaki. She's the host of the Briefing right here on MSNBC and her podcast the Blueprint, where she sits down with some of the biggest names helping to shape the future of the Democratic Party. It has started its second season. Episode three drops today. She of course, previously served as White House press secretary under President Joe Biden. We're also joined by MSNBC political analyst and pollster Cornell Belcher. And Christy, we convinced to stick around. Jen Psaki, what do you feel watching these images?
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Jen Psaki
I mean, probably a lot of what you feel, Nicole, having worked in that building and walked through those hallways. And I've been thinking about that kind of cobblestone hallway you walk down if you were going on a tour of the East Wing, which is what most people do if they've been to the White House, where the walls are covered with pictures of past presidents and their families and moments in history. And there's a throwback necessary to the hallway, which is what the beauty of it is. Right. And you can see out to the garden that often the first lady sits in. You can see out to the White House lawn. And the beauty of the White House is the historic nature of it. Right. It is the fact that so many people who have been leading the country and families who have been supporting them and leading the country have lived there and walked those halls as HEP leaders. So seeing these photos is honestly a tremendous gut punch. It makes me so sad for the people who won't be able to see it, who haven't seen it. And it's just. It's just, to me, it's kind of one of the most physically destructive things that Trump has done, obviously.
- [26:44]
Nicole Wallace
Cornell, what are your thoughts?
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MSNBC Announcer
You know, it's devastating because it's such a sacred place for us, and it's a people's house. And I remember going there even as. As an intern. Let's show how old I am. And dropping off data for then Bill Clinton, who would go to Bill Clinton. I'm so excited to be there and think of the history that is there. And they're going to tear this down to build a monumental ballroom. You know, Nicole, in so many ways, it's symbolic of, you know, the destruction of norms and the. And the trampling of the people's house. To put up a monumental ballroom that is really about one man's vanity. I think I can't escape the symbolism and the sadness for America.
- [27:36]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, Jen, I think I want to try to root this in Donald Trump's own betrayal of Donald Trump's own supporters, because Donald Trump is never speaking to the whole country. He told us at Charlie Kirk's memorial service that he thinks his political opponents, he hates them, was his word. So he's only ever speaking to his own. And he promised his own people he wouldn't touch the original White House because he said, again, quote, I'm the biggest fan of it. Why lie? And why forbid people at treasury from taking pictures if you're actually proud of the destruction of the East Wing?
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Jen Psaki
Because he thinks people will follow him and because it's, as Cornell just said, a vanity project. I mean, look at what he's done to the Oval Office. I look at pictures of the Oval Office and the gold ordained or ornamented of that, and it's horrifying. But that is all about boosting the fragile, small ego of Donald Trump. And the grandioseness of this ballroom he wants to create is about him being able to show that off. He's like a little fragile boy who needs to have big toys. So why did he lie to his supporters? I think he's lied to his supporters. As you know, as you've covered, as I've covered before. It doesn't matter, because he assumes they're gonna follow him, and he just needs to pat his ego. To him, it's important than staying true to his word.
- [28:58]
Nicole Wallace
Cornell. There's also the matter of how this is paid for. He took corporate donations. So all those corporations, I should disclose, they include our parent company, Comcast, are party to the destruction of the East Wing of the White House.
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MSNBC Announcer
And again, you can't escape the symbolism of, again, this not being about the people and the people's House. Right? It is corporations, big, large, powerful corporations piling in, and for a vanity project for one man, not improving the, you know, any improvement or anything that's about the American people. And by the way, at a time when, you know, there's a story in the Virginia Pilot today, you know, about how, you know, federal workers, where, you know, a lot of federal workers are in Virginia, are now lining up for unemployment because these families are struggling because the government is shut down and prices are soaring, and we have. And we're spending, what, over $200 million on a vanity project and tearing down parts of the People's House. I think the symbolism is just overwhelming.
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Nicole Wallace
Right. Those corporations could have stocked food banks, which are also running out of items that the government shut down, drowning on. I mean, what or who has any legal recourse here? Christy? If anyone wanted to stop the destruction of the East Wing of the White.
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Christy Greenberg
House, I'm not sure there is any legal recourse. This feels like something that's within his authority to do. It's just shameful that he's. That he's doing it. And again, if it's not Funded by the people, but it's funded by these corporations. I think it makes it that much harder to try to legally stop it. But you just see the continued grift. I mean, look what he is spending his money on, as people like you mentioned are dealing with, with being out of work because the government is shut down and you're building a ballroom and you're spending millions on that while also looking to take a handout from the people because you were prosecuted and seeking to get, I think it's over 200 million from that. Which, by the way, when you're prosecuted and the case is dismissed against you, that doesn't mean you get paid for it. I've seen that any number of times. That's not a thing that happens, particularly when you. You can't show there's kind of any vindictive prosecution or there's any reason why you were damaged in some way. I mean, he wasn't damaged. He ran on that and became president. So, like, where's the damage? This is a guy who says he's a billionaire and yet this is what he's spending money on. Taking money from the taxpayers and taking money from these corporations for his vanity projects as he literally tears down our institutions.
- [31:36]
Nicole Wallace
Jen, I have this piece of me that also wonders if he's aware of how much he benefited in the eyes of world leaders and in the eyes of his own skeptics by standing in that place, by walking down the same halls that past president, it elevated him. And to destroy this thing that connoted onto him gravitas of which he does not deserve, and put in its place something ostentatious and tacky. He had that running away. He had lots of. I mean, everything he makes and touches is ostentatious and tacky. But to tear down the thing that is elegant and historic, that actually elevated him a little bit in some people's eyes and replace it with something that is what he already has, also seems from his own brand perspective, stupid.
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Jen Psaki
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I've thought about this when we've watched and covered these Oval Office meetings he's had as well, where some of these foreign leaders must walk in and think, good God, what did you do to this room? And why did you do it to this room? Many of them have been there before. They've seen predecessors go there before. And that is what we're looking at in a much larger scale with this ballroom. And it seems to me quite apparent that a lot of these foreign leaders see through this right There's a transparency to his insecurity that you see. If you need to build a tremendous ballroom, it's not because you're secure in your leadership and your legacy. So it almost shows, to your point, Nicole, his weakness and his own insecurity in kind of being there in this position. The other thing I just wanted to note, cuz I was thinking about this when Christie was talking, he is just the master also of raising money from donors from companies where it's not all required to be disclosed. I mean, we still don't know what he spent from the presidential transition. Right. So people are able companies and people who are trying to get in his good favor. This is another forum for them to buy his favor. And that, that also should be disgusting as a part of this whole discussion.
- [33:40]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I wonder if they'll get like, you know, I don't know, you can buy a brick in Central Park.
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Jen Psaki
Exactly.
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Nicole Wallace
Maybe a table in the ballroom.
- [33:51]
Jen Psaki
Right. Maybe. Maybe they'll spend 30 million instead of 20 million. It's all we're talking about the People's House. It's the People's House. Right, The White House that so many people, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people have gone through. I mean, how many people did you take on tours? I'm sure so many when you were there, Nicole, as did I. And you're making it into something that's gaudy and disgusting and representative of what we're seeing Trump bring to traditions that have lived through Republican and Democratic presidents.
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Nicole Wallace
And that helped him, as Christy said, he won twice. All right, no one's going anywhere. Coming up for us, the state of North Carolina today quickly heard and heeded Donald Trump's call to change the rules of the game for next year's midterm elections. We'll talk about what that means and how Democrats can fight back. Don't go anywhere.
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MSNBC Announcer
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- [35:03]
Jen Psaki
The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.
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MSNBC Announcer
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Nicole Wallace
The first swing state to act on Donald Trump's pressure campaign to find more Republican seats by reshaping their congressional maps for a mid decade redistricting push just past a new map today, importantly, it is the state of North Carolina. North Carolina's New Congressional map will give Republicans an additional seat in the House in next year's midterms, where the margin between Republicans and Democrats is already razor thin. Republicans in the state not even trying to hide how brazenly political this move was. The Republican state senator who prepared the map said to his colleagues this quote, the motivation behind this redraw is simple and singular. Drawing a new map that will bring an additional Republican seat to the North Carolina congressional delegation. North Carolina's Democratic Governor, Josh Stein called that out. If I did have that power, I assure you I would veto this map. True leadership is knowing when and whether to use your power. Republican legislative leaders are abusing their power to take away yours. They're afraid that they will lose in the midterms and afraid to say no to the president. So they've turned their backs on you.
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MSNBC Announcer
To silence your vote in the 2026 election. It's outrageous.
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Nicole Wallace
When a candidate or a party loses an election, you're supposed to work like hell to connect better with voters so that you can win the next time. You do not rig the rules of the game to guarantee your victory.
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MSNBC Announcer
The voters be damned.
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Nicole Wallace
So this push by red states has now moved to swing states and it is a push happening out in the open to redraw the nation's electoral maps. It's putting Democrats in a corner. Right. Republicans have revealed themselves and Democrats have to reckon with just what they're going to do. What are they willing to do to preserve American democracy? It's a question that is driving a big name in Democratic politics to get more involved. Former President Barack Obama. The Washington Post reports that President President Obama maneuvered a behind the scenes push to counter the Republican redistricting efforts, specifically rallying support for California's Countermeasure Prop 50. We're back with Jen Cornell and Christie. Jen, President Obama has always seen the stakes. He's always matched his actions to the rhetoric about the threats to democracy that Trump faces and presents and has now ushered in. Are people following behind him in ways we cannot see? What is happening on the Democratic side?
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Jen Psaki
Well, I think one of the most one, it's very interesting. Barack Obama is involved, having worked for him for 10 years, because he has been quiet at moments and other moments he has spoken out. And he is somebody who has long supported rule of law and not doing midterm redistricting. But he also is not someone who believes in fighting with one arm tied behind your back. And this, to me is a real moment where Democrats are going to have to decide how hard they're going to fight. And one of the most interesting things, I think, in addition to Obama today was Wes Moore. And I don't know if you may have seen this, Nicole, but what Wes Moore said, I've interviewed him a couple times recently and asked him about this, and he's basically said it's on the table, it's on the table, but hasn't been committal. And he said if the president is going to put his finger on the scale to try and manipulate the elections, he's talking about Trump. Of course, Maryland will do its part to make sure our maps are fair. And I use that as an example because Maryland is one of the states, as is Illinois, where there's an opportunity to regain seats if they can move it through their processes. So I think what's happening behind the scenes is there's a real push and pressure and a recognition that this may be a defining issue for people who may want to run for president, but also for Democrats in this moment who want to protect and preserve our democracy.
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Nicole Wallace
Jen, help me understand what in the Democratic Party putting it on the table means, because on the Republican side, they've lit the table on fire, Right. And they've normalized with their there's no price to pay with the Republican voters for rigging the electorate. They're fine with that. And it feels like the Democrats have by putting things on the table and thinking about it and watching, they are, they are all the things that the Democratic base is angry at them for being too slow 1000%.
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Jen Psaki
That's sort of my point. Right. It's when people, when governors have been answering the question and saying it's on the table, it's an option we'll look at, that's just not good enough anymore in this moment. Right. So Gouverneur Moore saying basically, if Trump is going to put his finger on the scale, which he obviously is, we will do something in Maryland is actually beyond it's on the table. Right. He's taking a step further, saying something further. I think we're going to see that, I expect, for other governors who may want to run for president. Right. Who want to be seen as leaders in this fight to protect our democracy. Because it's not over, as we know, as you've been covering very closely. I mean, Texas and California was just the beginning. Republicans are doing this. They tried to do it in Indiana. They have been stopped. Right now. They're trying to do it in Missouri. They're going to try to do it in states across the country. So Democratic governors who have the ability. This is going to be a real test for them with the base on whether they use their power to actually take a step here.
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Nicole Wallace
Cornell I think it goes beyond the base. I think anyone that hates what they're seeing out of the military, active duty troops deployed to the streets of American cities, I think anybody that hates what is obvious, politically motivated prosecutions, I think the misread of this is it's just about whether or not you can manage the Democratic base. I think there is, I mean, Donald Trump has a 37% approval rating nine months in. That's historically abysmal. And that's because people don't like bulldozers knocking down the White House. They don't always love the person in it. But there are certain things that give people reassurances. I don't think people like seeing DOJ turned into any president's party's political hit squad. And I don't think people like troops on the streets.
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MSNBC Announcer
Yeah, well, and there's data to back up all that and an increasing amount of data now showing that Americans are really worried about the democracy and that this, that Donald Trump is a potential dangerous dictator. But I want to focus on North Carolina for a minute. And because this is striking to me what the Republicans are doing there. North Carolina, as you and I know, that's not a, that's not a bright red state. My parents were from North Carolina, done a lot of work there in North Carolina. It is a swing state. They have a Democratic governor right now. And all the issues that are happening in North Carolina, one being with their public education. North Carolina's always been a state that sort of led the region in public education and dollars. And the voters right there, right now are worried that North Carolina is falling behind in that space. And so what are your state legislators people doing? They're listening to Donald Trump, who, again, not a lot of people who are favorable or approving of what he's doing. So they're doing the work and bidding of Donald Trump, I hope. And I also think there's a potential, especially in swing states like North Carolina, that the overreach. And to your point, it's not just about Democratic base, but that moderate, middle of the road mom who's sitting there in the kitchen worried about her child's education and what's happening in this country, especially in North Carolina, why does that help her? And what does, and how does those state representatives talk to that mom about focusing on the issues that are important to her when they're doing this political bidding. I think there's a moderate middle swath of the country, in particular in a place like North Carolina where this might backfire on them, right? Yes. Are they making this one seat safer for Republicans or are they diluting the Republicans ability in other places?
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Nicole Wallace
Yeah, it's like maybe, maybe, maybe you're so unpopular that all of the 3D re rigging is actually politically perilous if your approval goes below a seat.
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MSNBC Announcer
Well, I think if you have a wave election, I think it's.
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Nicole Wallace
You're putting more seats in play.
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MSNBC Announcer
You're putting more seats in play. If I'm, if I'm sitting at dccc, I'm going, I think I may have more season play this year round than I ever had.
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Nicole Wallace
Because you're diluting it. Yeah, that's super interesting. All right, everyone sticks around. Jen, we want to talk to you about season two of the Blueprint. One more break. We'll be right back and do that. This is a live picture of the complete and utter destruction of the east wing of the People's House. The White House. White House sits on an 18 acre plot in northwest D.C. it has housed presidents and their families and their dogs. Jen Psaki was talking about a wall with historical pictures. When I worked in the White House, a lot of them were about the history of all presidents and their pets. That's all gone. It has been torn down despite Donald Trump in his second term promising that he, quote, would not touch the original structure because he was, quote, its biggest fan. It is a all been demolished, or as you see there on your screen in a live picture, in the process of being demolished, destroyed, torn down to build Donald TRUMP A 90,000 square foot room for dancing called a ballroom. We're back with Jen Cornell and Christy. Jen Psaki, first of all, your podcast is the inspiration behind my podcast. So thank you.
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Jen Psaki
I'm honored by that.
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Nicole Wallace
It's so good. It was so good. And it's back. So tell me what you've got and tell me how you're getting at this moment with all your great sources and former colleagues and friends.
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Jen Psaki
First of all, I love your podcast so much because they're conversations that even though you have two hours of show that we all watch every day, you can't possibly have. And they're so important to hear and they're something different. And one of the things I love about having a podcast is, is it's a forum to have conversations. Mine is about the future of the party that's out of power. Right. And there are good debates that are being had in the party that's out of power, about gerontocracy and whether somebody's too old or whether somebody's not experienced enough about what issues should be discussed and what issues should not be discussed about purity tests. Everybody doesn't agree. And I think that's so healthy. And that's part of what we're trying to do. And what I'm hearing from a lot of people out there. You talk to a million people, too. I try to talk to a million people too. Is that that there's still a journey that's happening within the Democratic Party about who the leaders are going to be. And I think that's so exciting. So introducing people people may not know. Well, like Greg Kazar, who was our first guest. I just had Governor Bashir on. I mean, he won an estate Trump won in 2024 by 30 points. It's just different voices, different people, and some time to spend on the party that's out of power, that's trying to get back in power.
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Nicole Wallace
One of the things that my favorite thing about having a podcast is I can talk the way I always talk, which includes words you can't say. My favorite thing that starts with an F sometimes. Exactly. Something that you can interview Heilman without being scared, something that comes up with everyone I interview is real anger, real anger at the Democrats for not fighting and not fighting to win. How do your different guests plan to solve that?
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Jen Psaki
Well, they all have different answers to it. And that's kind of what's interesting, because there isn't one answer. And our first season, we really focused on backward looking, on what the hell just. Or what the fuck just happened right in the November election. This is really forward looking. So when I spoke with Greg Kazar about it, he's in his mid-30s. He's the head of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Right. You'd think he's somebody who would say, I will never campaign for or work with anybody who's not pro choice or has any record on gun violence that doesn't align with mine. And his view is we need to have a bigger umbrella. That's his view. Everybody doesn't agree with that. Right. Governor Beshear feels like people need to talk in more regular language. So they all have different answers. They're all angry in different ways, and they're trying to manifest it in a way that better connects with the people that they're trying to get to vote for them. And a lot of it is disconnection and trying to figure out how to better connect. And that's one of the things I hear over and over again from everybody I'm talking to.
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Nicole Wallace
This funny thing about being pissed. It reminds me of this scene in in Jerry Maguire where Cuba Gooding's character and Tom Cruise are in the locker room fighting and Tom Cruise walks out and says I just can't deal with you. And Cuba Gooding's like, oh, I thought we were just starting to communicate. It's like if they're all mad, then they're finally connecting with their base because their base is furious that an election was for whatever the reasons and the backward looking is important, but whatever the explanation for how they lost in November, I think it'll take a big overwhelming win for the base of the Democratic Party to forgive them.
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Jen Psaki
No question. And it's part self reflection, but it's not wallowing, it's action. And what are you doing to put into action that is different than what was done before. Cuz it's also about getting those voters out who didn't turn out. It's about getting those voters to understand the policies and why they're the right policies to vote for. There are a lot of things that warrant improvement, a lot of reasons for anger and it's about how you tap into it and what you do from here.
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Nicole Wallace
It's so good. Jen Psaki, thank you so much for being here. The first three episodes of season two of the Blueprint are out right now. To listen, you scan the QR code on your screen to subscribe and listen to them. Cornell and Christy, thank you both so much for being here at the table. Christy, thank you for agreeing in a break to stay for the whole hour. We needed you. Coming up next for us House Republicans refer former Director of the CIA John Brennan for criminal prosecution. Prosecution. He will be our next guest. He'll be here to respond after a short break. Don't go anywhere.