← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“The dimwitted view of one individual”
01:25:28
Nicolle Wallace on the uproar from Trump’s base over the Iran conflict, rising threats of political violence, and ICE raid whiplash scaring off workers and closing businesses. Joined by: Michael Crowley, Ned Price, Eddie Glaude, Paul Rieckhoff, Amanda Carpenter, Jacob Soboroff, Lindsay Toczylowski, Rev. Al Sharpton, and Kevin Blackistone.
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- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
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- [00:59]
Ned Price
Situations.
- [01:05]
Michael Crowley
Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the East. For the purposes of the next couple minutes, let's just say we are a traditional ally of the US country we've always seen as the single most powerful nation our planet has ever known, which is in the process of making a supremely consequential decision about it, what it should do or should not do when it comes to Iran. Normally, our American partners might act in conjunction with our allies, people like us, in planning for and acting on a course of action that could upend the world order. But of course, things are very, very different now. So how do we, as a ally of the US Go about pursuing our national security interests on this particular matter? Should we maybe, I don't know, call someone in Congress, a bicameral legislative body that has all but ceded its constitutional authority, including its authority to declare war? Or should we maybe, I don't know, call someone in the intelligence community, the same agencies that Trump said a few minutes ago he, quote, disagrees with when it comes to whether or not Iran is close to having a nuclear weapon? Should we reach out to the new director of national intelligence, a woman named Tulsi Gabbard, regardless of whether or not she was a qualified pick, the same person that Trump just said is, quote, wrong on Iran? Likewise, should we reach out to the new defense secretary, a guy named Pete Hegseth, even though the White House has spent this week refuting reports that he and Gabbard have been generally excluded from small group meetings on this topic? Or should we approach Trump directly? It's dicey, but I don't know. He's the guy who unilaterally does things like igniting a trade war, a trade war that has already upended the world's economy. The man who in word and deed has lit a torch to age old alliances, who just this week said of striking Iran this quote, I may do it, I may not do it and quote, I like to make the final decision one second before it is due. No, perhaps best, most accurate way for any ally of the US Right now to gauge how and when it will react to the Israel Iran conflict is simply to watch some of Donald Trump's favorite TV shows. By now you might have seen the online foreign policy debate raging on this topic between Tucker Carlson and Senator Ted Cruz. We know reporters spotted Steve Bannon, far right personality and former adviser to Donald Trump at the White House yesterday, a short time before the administration announced a two week timeline for making a decision on intervention. Media Matters puts it like this, quote, the Fox propaganda engine is driving this chaotic process. Trump reportedly became more interested in US Military action because he saw favorable Fox coverage of Israel's initial attacks on Iran, while more recent segments have stressed the importance of U.S. involvement. Fox host Mark Levin and his former colleague Tucker Carlson are waging a scorched earth battle for Trump's ear, with Levin apparently gaining the advantage. Top administration officials with roles in a potential conflict, including Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard and Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, are in their positions in the first place because Trump approved of their previous work at the network. Today, with violence still ongoing in the Middle East, Iran's foreign minister met with his European counterparts in Geneva, but refused to meet with American officials. Yet another instance in which US Allies increasingly appear to be going it alone without us. It's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times diplomatic correspondent Michael Crowley is back and former State Department spokesman Ned Price is here with us. Michael Crowley, let me ask you just to set the stage with any developments today that I might have, they might have missed or any dynamics that you're also watching and reporting on.
- [05:07]
Eddie Glaude
Hi, Nicole, and thanks. You know, you covered it really well. And you know, the key dynamic here is what is rattling around in the president's head. So, you know, there is diplomatic activity, as you just noted, and the Europeans are doing their best to try to return this to a negotiation and a conversation so that there's some channel, some alternative to the president deciding bomb or don't bomb, where you have a conversation going with the Iranians again. And by the way, that's one that, you know, in my reporting in the last couple days, I've talked to a lot of nuclear experts. And, you know, I sense a really strong consensus among the people who understand this program best. It's a concern that, you know, military action is not going to completely destroy and end the Iranian program, that you're going to be left with a lot of problems even if the regime doesn't collapse. And you don't get into that whole question of whether Iran turns into the next Libya. You're going to have a lot of questions about where the Iranian program goes from here and the strong possibility that the Iranians double down and try to do things in secret, try to accelerate their program and just precipitate another crisis down the line. And so my point is that these experts really are supportive of diplomacy and say that Iran's never going to completely surrender the program. You've got to come up with an agreement. So in theory, if you believe that premise, this diplomatic activity is helpful and important, but we just don't know that this is what the president is actually interested in. And everyone is trying to decode these bits and pieces, like who's coming in and out of the side entrance of the White House and what is Steve Bannon saying about this. But honestly, I don't think there's any grand theory or guiding North Star right now. It's just an entire world on the edge of its seat.
- [06:57]
Michael Crowley
Michael Crowley, what is the two weeks? Does anyone have a theory on where that came from, other than it is Donald Trump's favorite interval?
- [07:06]
Eddie Glaude
It's his favorite interval. And, you know, I really do think that, look, there could be a lot of different things. It could be a bluff. It could be that he is once again, you know, hoping the Iranians will be caught unawares, as they were apparently last week, whether it was by design, if the president was in on the fact that Israel was attacking, or by, you know, chance, if the president was still hoping to delay Israel from attacking. But the Iranians were hearing President Trump talk about another round of negotiations and seemed unprepared for the Israeli strike that took place before the several days before that meeting was supposed to happen on last Sunday. So maybe this is a bluff. Maybe he was a little bit rattled as he began to hear from allies like Bannon and Carlson, and people were raising all the possible consequences of a strike. But, you know, sometimes the simplest explanation is the one you should rely on. And in this case, I think it's strongly possible that President Trump realizes there's no rush. The Israelis aren't demanding that he do this right away. Fordeau is not going anywhere. They're not going to be able to smuggle the nuclear stuff out of it because it's being watched like a hawk. So he's going to take his time, decide at the last minute, maybe see if things develop in a way that makes the decision any easier for him. It could be as simple as that.
- [08:23]
Michael Crowley
Ned, it's so nice to have you on the program. Thank you for being here. I want to show you some of his refrain of two weeks, but I just first want your thoughts on this moment we find ourselves in as a country.
- [08:36]
Amanda Carpenter
You know, Nicole, it's a fraud moment. It's a dangerous moment. But it is one in which I think we should all be hoping that diplomacy wins out. Michael is exactly right. The people he's been speaking to are exactly right. There is one and only one way to permanently and to verifiably ensure that Iran never acquires a nuclear weapon. A goal which we should all share, by the way, we share with Donald Trump. We share it with our Israeli partners, we share it with countries around the world, and that is through diplomacy, as Michael was alluding to. A military strike might, and I use that term deliberately, might set back Iran's nuclear program. It might set it back by months or longer if it's successful. Successful. And of course, that's an if, even though we have all the confidence in the world in the US Military. But there's another dynamic at play here, Nicole. If, if we go after this solely militarily, it provides Iran every incentive in the world to try to reconstitute its program as quickly and as clandestinely as it as it could possibly do so. And, Nicole, it doesn't take Iran the capability to build a full scale sophisticated nuclear weapon. If Iran is acting quite literally under the gun and it wants to respond quickly, in due time, it could cobble together the enriched uranium that may be left over from the various military strikes. And rather than put together a sophisticated weapon, Iran will have the ability in relatively short order to put together a much cruder nuclear device. So again, there is only one way where we can conclusively deal with this program. It's what we did in 2015 when President Obama and the White House team working on it concluded the jcpoa, the Iran deal. Iran's nuclear program was in a box for those three years. I say only three years because, of course, it was let out of a box in May of 2018 by President Trump himself. The same president who is now trying to reconstitute something like what we used to have.
- [10:39]
Michael Crowley
I mean, Ned, you're making all of the correct and logical insane policy arguments based on facts and knowledge and intelligence. But I just want to. Want to contrast that with what, from the outside, looks very different. This is what's happening on Fox News right now. Folks who know Trump is watching, giving him foreign policy, military and strategic counsel.
- [11:05]
Nicole Wallace
We have to do it.
- [11:06]
Amanda Carpenter
And I know President Trump, probably watching.
- [11:09]
Paul Rykoff
It takes a lot of bravery.
- [11:10]
Nicole Wallace
But as you've, I've been watching your show, you've shown that he's been very consistent about the fact that Iran can never have nuclear weapons. We can't go halfway here.
- [11:21]
Michael Crowley
I mean, what is your sense of what Donald Trump's Information and Advice diet is right now?
- [11:30]
Amanda Carpenter
Well, Nicole, I wish it were a complete diet, and I say that in the sense that I wish he were getting the full and considered view of the US Government. But of course, he's not. He's not for a couple different reasons. Number one, this administration has really taken a jackhammer to the National Security Council. I spent three years on the National Security Council. In my last job at the State Department, I was in every single one of these NSC meetings, including on the issue of Iran. And the point of those meetings is to quite literally get everyone around the table so that the president or the national security advisor or whoever is chairing the meeting can hear the considered judgment of the departments and agencies. You know, Nicole, for people like me, there's, there could be some degree of ambivalence when we hear that someone like Tulsi Gabbard or someone like Pete Hegseth is being excluded from the most sensitive conversations this government is having. And you might be, you might be inclined to say, well, that's great. Pete Hegseth is unqualified. Tulsi Gabbard is a little kooky. You know, maybe it's a good thing they aren't there. But, Nicole, as you know, the point of the National Security Council and the Situation Room itself is not to gather everyone around the table to profess their own personal views, what they think individually we should do. It is to represent the considered judgment of the department or agency that they, that they lead. And when the leader of the Defense Department, the civilian leader of the Defense Department, and of course, we always want civilian control and primacy of the military in this country. And when the person who's in charge of the 17 departments and agencies that comprise our intelligence community are not there, the President, by definition, is not going to have that complete picture. And when the President doesn't have the complete set of facts on something as deadly serious as this, Nicole, the consequences could be significant for all of us.
- [13:22]
Michael Crowley
Well, he just did just that. Let me show you. This is him a couple minutes ago saying he doesn't agree with Tulsi Gabbard.
- [13:32]
Amanda Carpenter
What intelligence do you have? That Iran is building a nuclear weapon? Your intelligence community has said they have no evidence that they are at this point.
- [13:38]
Nicole Wallace
Well, then my intelligence community is wrong. Who in the intelligence community said that?
- [13:43]
Amanda Carpenter
Your Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard.
- [13:46]
Nicole Wallace
She's wrong.
- [13:49]
Michael Crowley
I mean, Michael Crowley. This became normal when the people running the intelligence agencies were steeped in expertise. It sounds even weirder when it's his person who's only there because he put her there over the objections of Democratic senators and Republican senators. Where does it leave us to Ned's argument if he now isn't listening to his handpicked head of the intelligence community?
- [14:17]
Eddie Glaude
You know, that's a great point, Nicole, because I was getting ready to say something about how in his first term, President Trump was trying to discredit the intelligence community, including when he was standing next to Vladimir Putin in Helsinki and said said that Putin was right about the idea that Russia supposedly didn't try to interfere in American elections and the professionals in the intelligence community were wrong and he sided with the Russian president over the US Intelligence community. So he's got this track record of basically dismissing the judgments of the intelligence community when he doesn't like them. But you've added this strange new layer to it, which is that he's got to some degree a new intelligence community, at least a new leadership that is in sync with him, and he still doesn't wanna listen. And I think the conclusion that we have to draw from it is one that has been increasingly clear for a while now. The President just doesn't interested in expertise. He views the world through what he personally intuits, believes, wants to make true and real. It often seems that it's how things fit into a mast narrative that he's trying to shape. And it's really hard to find examples on any subject where he has ever said, well, the people who've really studied this tell me that this is the case or that I need to do this. You get the sense that he feels that he can look at a problem, squint his eyes, size it up, make the assessment, and it doesn't really matter what the experts are saying, even if it's someone who he has cultivated a personal relationship with and handpicked, like Tulsi Gabbard. And that, by the way, I think you can make a case is very dangerous. It's extremely complicated world, as I don't need to tell you.
- [16:11]
Michael Crowley
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, Ned, Tulsi Gabbard was opposed by every Democratic senator and there was some Republican opposition to her. And I'm not even sure it's expertise that he's rejecting, but she has access to actual facts and intelligence that he's rejecting. And this does feel very different. In Trump 1.0, it was people like Sue Gordon and people who were really the best, you know, among the experts. He has abandoned that. This is someone who runs intelligence collection and is in charge of putting it in front of Donald Trump, and he won't take it from her. Where does that leave? Not just our country and the people he leads, but where does that leave our allies? Where does that leave our adversaries?
- [17:06]
Amanda Carpenter
Look, Nicole, I spent a decade at the CIA, and so this is quite, quite personal for me. When you take a look at this disagreement, and I hesitate to even call it that, because what President Trump is doing, he's rejecting the consensus view, the considered consensus view of 17 different intelligence departments and agencies. It's that versus the dimwitted view of one individual. This is not just something on which you can disagree. Now, of course, if you're the President of the United States, it is ultimately your prerogative to decide what to do about it. Presidents and policymakers decide policy. The intelligence community provides policymakers, including the so called first customer, the President of the United States, with what they need to do that, the inputs that they need to do that. And Nicole, this disagreement between them, and again, it shouldn't be a disagreement, but it is so core to the discussion we're having today because it really gets to the urgency of the situation and the options that are available. This has been the view of the intelligence community for nearly 20 years. The intelligence community in 2007 first came to the judgment that Iran in the year 2003 stopped its weaponization program, that is to say, the efforts to actually construct a nuclear weapon. Now, a lot of people are saying, how could that be? Iran, of course, has an active nuclear program, and yes, of course they do. But many people, either willfully or in some cases unintentionally, are conflating the issue of enrichment, which we should be quite concerned about. And Iran has played this dangerous game of nuclear brinksmanship by enriching more at higher levels since Donald Trump left the Iran deal in 2018 versus this issue of weaponization. And as we hear the arguments for war, when people are saying Iran is a week away from obtaining a nuclear weapon, we have to be equipped with the information that the intelligence community itself has declassified under President George W. Bush. As you know, no Iran dub himself that says no, that's not quite right. And actually, there may be a diplomatic option available and we should pursue it.
- [19:23]
Michael Crowley
It's amazing. It's amazing just having these conversations with people with knowledge and expertise and trying to ascertain what the person who is keeping the knowledge and expertise at arm's length is going to do. Just an extraordinary moment. Two of the best people to talk to about it. Thank you so much. Michael Crowley and Ned Price. To be continued. When we come back, a man has been arrested for trying to kidnap the mayor of Memphis. It's another shocking incident highlighting the scourge of political violence in our country right now. We'll talk about that next. Also ahead, Donald Trump promised to take care of our nation's veterans. Now his administration is gutting a program that thousands of veterans rely on to stay in their homes. And later in the broadcast, communities in Los Angeles are reeling from the on again, off again, now, on again, mass deportation policies of the Trump administration. We'll have a live report from the ground. All those stories and more when DEADLINE White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today.
- [20:24]
Nicole Wallace
Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Brit break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before.
- [20:37]
Amanda Carpenter
You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that.
- [20:39]
Nicole Wallace
Haven'T been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you by searching for Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts, nearly home. Isn't home where we all want to be? Reba here for realtor.com, the Pro's number one most trusted app. Finding a home is like dating. You're not just looking for a place to live, you're searching for the one. That's where realtor.com comes in. Like any good matchmaker, they know exactly where to look. With over 500,000 new real listings straight from the pros every month, you could find your perfect match. Today, ranch style with a pool, barndominium with an in Law Suite. Realtor.com's got em modern craftsman with a big yard and a treehouse out back. Realtor.com will have you saying yep that's the one. No more swapping. It's time to start finding download the realtor.com app today cause you're nearly home. Make it real with realtor.com pro's number one most true trusted app based on August 2024 proprietary survey. Over 500,000 new listings every month based on average new for sale and rental listings February 2024 through January 2025. You know who's surprisingly good with money? Green Light Kids. The other day mine stopped to think about the ROI on a bag of chips. Seriously. From getting paid for doing chores around the house to saving up for concerts, Greenlight's teaching my kids how to handle their money. Green light your kids financial future with the number one family finance and safety app. Try Greenlight risk free@greenlight.com podcast.
- [22:23]
Michael Crowley
It has been a tragic week, marred and jolted by the reality of political violence in America. Starting with the politically motivated attacks in Minnesota, the assassination of a Democratic Minnesota state representative, Melissa Hortman and her husband. The suspect also shot and wounded State Senator John Hoffman and his wife in their home. And now in Memphis, Tennessee, there's news that a man has been arrested and charged with attempting to kidnap the mayor. According to the New York Times report, quote, a 25 year old man who said he was angry about crime in Memphis and wanted to confront the city's mayor scaled a wall at the mayor's home late Sunday night and armed with a stun gun, knocked on the front door. They add that Mayor Paul Young was, quote, home along with his wife and two young children when he saw a man knock on his door through the doorbell camera. Following the event, the mayor released a statement writing this, quote, in today's climate, especially after the tragic events in Minnesota and the threats my wife and I often receive online, none of us can be too careful. Each incident is a startling reminder for public officials that in this moment in our country, their jobs, just doing their jobs, puts them at risk as well as their families and children. In a new piece today, the New York Times editorial board is urging Americans to wake up and not treat any of this as normal. They write this quote, the new culture of political violence is being reinforced. When we move on too quickly from an attack against our society's organizing ideas, we normalize it. The next shooter, the next extremist sees a society that accepts violence. Forgetting is dangerous it encourages repetition. Joining our coverage, Princeton University professor MSNBC political analyst Eddie Glad is here. Also joining us, host of the Independent Americans podcast, founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, Paul Rykoff's here. And writer and editor at Protect Democracy, Amanda Carpenter is here. Amanda, this acceptance of violence is a dynamic that started showing up in the polls on the maga, right. Years ago. And it's been noted, it's been pointed out by folks like yourself for years. We're now, it feels like living with the consequences of some of that acceptance and enthusiasm, even for violence.
- [24:47]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Yeah, here's the thing I'm really struggling with, Nicole, is that it is becoming common. People are getting numb to it. But you would think, at least I would like to think that as more people are affected by it in negative ways, that there would be more cause for unity. You know, I'm thinking back to you. Do you remember when Gabby Giffords was shot? I do. I was actually on my way to a dinner with Newt Gingrich and a bunch of right of center writers and it was just so heavy on our minds. And you know, like we took a pause, people took a pause and there was the same politicization that happens online and things like that. But the way this is accelerated. And now it's not just Gabby Giffords. You have Steve Scalise in the baseball shootings, Paul Pelosi, Josh Shapiro with the arson, Gretchen Whitmer, President Trump. Right. Assassination, assassination attempts twice. So why is it, when everyone is increasingly in danger, especially among elected officials, why are we not coming together to stop it? Why is everything such a race to see, okay, well who did it and how can it benefit my team? And, you know, a lot of this comes from the top. I mean, there is such a desire among Trump and his supporters to marshal this kind of stuff as evidence against the other team. And there's so many just, just, you know, it's a missed opportunity. And it's really something that is, you know, it's, it's putting our country in grave danger because when politicians cannot make decisions free from the threat of violence, we don't have a democracy anymore. And it's not just with, you know, these assassination attempts and everything else, but it's Trump, you know, constantly trying to marshal, for lack of a better word, you know, the guys with guns to his team. Right. You see that with the January six pardons, you see that with the signals for, you know, licenses for violence. When it comes to ice and things like all the green lights, we think saying violence directed in this way against these populations and these kind of people. Well, I'm okay with outright, or at the very least, they're not deserving of empathy. And that's something we really just have to get back to. When the violence strikes humans, our fellow Americans, there needs to be more empathy. And the person who can figure out how to do that to try to remind people of who we are, you know, that's. That's our only path back.
- [27:01]
Michael Crowley
It's the only. It's the only door that gets us out of this, Paul. And some of it is mixed up, as Amanda's talking about, with the toxic masculinity or the perception of what masculinity is in the manosphere. But that is not real life. And some of this is the extension of disassociating people's online lives from their actual lives. The things that Mike Lee said seem so disassociated from anything a human being does. I don't know if he goes to the grocery store or goes to Costco, but I can't imagine any human being who goes through life saying those things to anybody's face. You know, must have been a Marxist. If you're wheeling your car through Costco and someone has just heard about or wants to share the pain of a political assassination with an elected official, can you imagine rolling those wide, heavy cards through Costco and Mike Lee saying to someone's face what he said online? I mean, I just. And maybe this is my own wish, casting that in real life, he wouldn't be as hateful in the moments after an assassination. And he has taken the comments down, but only after being blasted from all sides. I wonder what you make of this moment.
- [28:15]
Paul Rykoff
I wish for that, too, but I think I wish for something maybe even more strategic and more of a priority. We have to recognize that this is a new reality. We are facing a new national security threat environment where this is increasing, it's expanding, and it can get worse. I think we have to look at this as kind of like after 9, 11, when people got used to going through metal detectors and higher levels of screening. I think we have to have a national strategy to protect elected leaders of both parties because the threat impacts everyone. But Congress hasn't really responded. And what they need to do, in my view, is come together and in a bipartisan way and do an entire national security review of all elected officials and judges and anyone else in public office across the country and figure out how to make it a strategic national security priority. Because when our elected leaders aren't safe America is not safe. Our democracy is not safe. And there really hasn't been any kind of a national response to what is an increased threat environment that has been noted by the Department of Defense over the years, has been noted by members of both parties. And if the President. President won't do it, Congress needs to, because this could get much worse in the days to come.
- [29:17]
Michael Crowley
Well, Paul, the judges are trying to do it on their own. Friend of our program, Esther Salas, whose son was murdered, is trying to do this on her own, but she's trying to do it, and she's making progress because she herself is a force of nature, but she's making progress. While Donald Trump is using his social media platforms and his massive numbers of followers to call judges haters who are against our country.
- [29:38]
Paul Rykoff
Yeah, And I think the important part to emphasize here is Trump is at increased risk to. Scalise is at increased risk. Democrats and Republicans are all at increased risk. Now, granted, Trump is driving that threat environment. He's throwing fuel on that fire. He's not toning down the violence. But Congress can treat this as a national security threat in the same way we would Al Qaeda or Iran or other national security threats, because, again, this is another example of something that has our enemies celebrating because a lot of our politicians and judges are vulnerable. We're approaching this in kind of a 1990 or 2000 way, and we've got to approach it entirely differently, and not just as a local issue or a political issue, but as a true national security priority.
- [30:20]
Michael Crowley
I don't want to have a conversation detached from reality. And I want to show all of you the reality of who Donald Trump is and how he talks.
- [30:29]
Nicole Wallace
Where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters. Okay.
- [30:34]
Jacob Soboroff
It's, like, incredible.
- [30:35]
Michael Crowley
Do you know what they used to.
- [30:36]
Nicole Wallace
Do to guys like that when they were in a place like this? They'd be carried out on a stretcher. Folks like to punch them in the face. I'll tell you, when you see these.
- [30:47]
Michael Crowley
Towns and when you see these thugs.
- [30:49]
Nicole Wallace
Being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in rough. I said, please don't be too nice. She's a radical warhawk. Let's put her with a rifle, standing there with nine barrels shooting at her. Okay. Let's see how she feels about it.
- [31:07]
Michael Crowley
Eddie, glad these are the words that the current president chooses to use.
- [31:13]
Jacob Soboroff
Yeah. Yes, Nicole. And I think it's important for us to understand that the nature of political violence in the country change shift in 2016 and had a lot to do with Donald Trump and the way in which he talks. And in so many ways, the way in which he talks is it offers a kind of license to certain Americans to just simply be who they are, without checks and balances, without concern or regard for their fellows, without any indication of empathy. So I think it's important for us to understand how Donald Trump has been an accelerant in so many ways in terms of some of the ugliness in our politics. But I also think something else is going on, and that is Americans have forgotten how to disagree, and we've forgotten how to disagree because in so many ways, Nicole, civil society has collapsed. And of course, it has something to do with social media. It has something to do with the epidemic of loneliness. It has something to do with the disappearance in so many ways of vibrant neighborhoods and social kind of interaction. There is something at the heart of this that when Americans feel like they can't make any headway because our politics are so broken, some people just simply reach for these very dramatic and extreme ways of expressing themselves. And then I want to add this just really quickly. So if civil society is broken and then you combine that with the fact that we are broken, I still think that American politics carries the burden of the fact that we're not quite right as a country because we haven't grieved properly. We've talked about this before, and so I think we've moved through this horrific time, and then we were dropped squarely in the lap of Donald Trump's carnival barcode, kind of. And so I don't think we're okay. And our politics expresses it in very clear ways. And it's not just directed at politicians. You know what you go through, Nicole, the press goes through it, and then there are disagreements at the local level, so we gotta tap the root. Even though I understand what Paul is suggesting.
- [33:19]
Michael Crowley
You know, you said something that we're gonna dig in on. We are not. Okay. We'll have that conversation on the other side of a short break. Don't go anywhere. We're back with Eddie, Paul and Amanda. Eddie, you said this thing that is truer than anything else, and that I feel like is more the cause that we just cannot deal with in a scaled manner. I think people are trying to deal with it in their own lives, but we are not. Okay. And the conversations you and I have had are largely about COVID You know, Covid was so awful and so painful. And if you didn't, if you weren't affected directly by losing someone, you know, God bless you, but you were certainly affected by the isolation or the fear or the loneliness or the economic impact. I mean, everyone was affected. And we, we've done nothing to deal with it other than elect someone who has put anti vaxxers and conspiracy theorists in charge of hs hhs. And all of this unprocessed trauma seems to still be roiling our politics and our society.
- [34:25]
Jacob Soboroff
You know, Nicole, I think that's so true. Our politics. How can I put it? Our politics is soaked in grief and grievance, and it's difficult for us to keep our noses above water, to mix my metaphors. You know, there's a sense in which the fact that we have had to deal with over a decade of this form of politics, the kind of invitation of the extreme right, of that rebranding of the alt right into our politics, the removal of certain kind of safeguards to the diminishment of civility, Right, all of it suggests a kind of fever dream that I think is a result of what we've been through, that we have yet, yet to grapple with a kind of collective trauma. And that's the only way, in some ways, outside of some historical realities that I can explain to myself why we assent to this. It's a kind of collective madness that I. That I haven't really been able to wrap my mind around outside of some selfish politicians who exploit it for their own aims and ends.
- [35:30]
Michael Crowley
Paul, you've been nodding at different points of what Eddie's been saying here.
- [35:35]
Nicole Wallace
Your thoughts?
- [35:36]
Paul Rykoff
I think this is actually one of the most important conversations in America that's not happening across America. And Eddie and I have talked about this offline, and I think it's starting to bubble up. But we've got a crisis in America around isolated, lonely men especially. And when you have a country that's got many young men who are angry, who are isolated, who have access to guns, it's a bad recipe. And we've got this brewing all across America. I've spent decades trying to heal the wounds of war, working with people who've experienced trauma. And people need hope and they need connection. And there are a lot of people who don't have hope and connection right now. And our politics are compounding that. And that's creating, I think, a social crisis. I think it's a public health crisis and it's a political crisis. But the reality is that the men who get in this situation sometimes, sometimes they commit political violence, sometimes they hurt others. Most often they hurt themselves. And this also feeds into the suicide rate that we have in the veterans community especially, but facing men all across America. So it's, I think, one of the most central conversations to everything that we're facing right now, and one that Trump has been able to manipulate and turn that grievance into political power in a very dangerous way.
- [36:49]
Michael Crowley
I'm so grateful to you guys for having this conversation. I want to. I want to be able to sustain it. I want to say this to you, Amanda, in a way that doesn't get misconstrued. I mean, there's such. I have such a anxiety about why Trump has been so successful politically, because I think for people like you and me, he did it in the name of a party we were once a part of. Right. But what he was able to do was to create connections in community for some of the people, not all of them, but some of the people that Paul and Eddie are talking about found the answer or what felt like an answer, what felt like connection, what felt like community in Trump and Trumpism. And there was a, you know, someone who was voting out of. Out of pain or loneliness or anger. That vote counts as much as the person voting out of hope and aspiration and benevolence. And I wonder if you think there's anywhere that this conversation is happening in our politics so that people motivated by connection and community who don't want to see our democracy destroyed are being able to plug in and find that.
- [37:58]
Reverend Al Sharpton
I've got to say, given the news cycle right now, when Eddie mentioned unprocessed grief, and maybe because Paul is also at the table, and maybe it's because, you know, I graduated in the year 2000, and a lot of my high school friends went over and served in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I don't think that trauma is ever really processed. And I feel like, I feel that very heavy today as we watch Donald Trump talk about possibly going to war in Iran, like, so carelessly. The fact that he goes on television and says things like, well, maybe I'll tell you in two weeks. Maybe I'll decide the day before. I mean, that kind of carelessness, given the amount of treasure that millions of Americans, families have invested into causes where we didn't have the evidence. Right. I fear we're getting to that situation again. And where this plays into your comments, Nicole, is that, you know, there is a party that is not used to questioning Trump. Right. It has become so tribal that, you know, Republicans in Congress are now conditioned to go along with anything he says, even as he doesn't have expertise by his own, by his own admission. He, he can't rely on the own experts that he has surrounded himself with. Right. And so I feel that compounding in a very real, very dangerous way that, you know, Covid was terrible. And so like all of these things are mounting. And instead of questioning and demanding more accountability for our government, the reaction has been just to go inward. And that's exactly the opposite of what we need right now.
- [39:31]
Michael Crowley
It's so interesting. The only way out is through or whatever. The pileup of trauma doesn't go away because there is a new one. It just piles up. There is a story dealing with veterans in the news that I want to get all of you to weigh in on. The Trump administration is leaving tens of thousands of veterans in the lurch, angering a lot of his own supporters and allies. And anyone that loves and cares about our veterans, I'll tell you about it next.
- [40:08]
Nicole Wallace
This group of lunatics that don't give a damn about the military, we're going to take care of our veterans properly. We're not going to have that happen anymore. Okay?
- [40:20]
Michael Crowley
That was Donald Trump back in October promising a room full of active duty military and veterans and their families that he, he would take care of them if elected. And something there about lunatics now. New reporting from NPR finds that because of Donald Trump's own Veterans Administration, many veterans could end up on the streets. From that new report, quote, last month, out of fear of the potential cost, the VA abruptly did away with the VA Servicing Purchase program, which has helped veterans and service members who got behind on their loans by giving them a new low interest rate mortgage. The program was created as a crucial last resort to help keep veterans in their homes. As one veteran puts it to npr, quote, my social media posts have not been nice to the director of the VA and have not been nice to Trump. And I voted for the guy. It's like, damn, you keep talking big about how you're doing all this for the veterans, but you just turn your back on 80,000 vets that have VA loans. We're back with Eddie Paul and Amanda Paul. You know, we were talking about big, deep things and I'm going to recruit all of you to have this conversation maybe on the podcast or maybe in an hour long special when we can really go deep on it. But this is, this is real. This is where the rubber meets the road. This is real. People in their own lives, regardless of who they voted for, maybe losing their homes.
- [41:41]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah.
- [41:42]
Paul Rykoff
And this is the kind of stuff that drives people to a breaking point. If you consider the earlier conversations, conversation we had in all this confluence of events. Think about veterans who faced a kind of moral injury, many of them a deep moral injury on everything from Iraq to Afghanistan to the abandonment of our Afghan allies to January six. All of this goes into a big cauldron. And then you find out the VA is going to throw you out in the street if you get behind on your mortgage and eradicate a program that's been successful, bipartisan and smart. So I think this is another example of where Trump is hitting veterans, veterans in a way that is going to get a lot of national attention. It should outrage everyone. But I think there's a bigger message here, and it maybe builds on what Senator Padilla said last week. If they can do this to veterans, they can do it to you, too. And I've long said they start with the Pentagon, they're starting with the va and then these policies start to cascade down. So they're being callous. They're making it about numbers in terms of money instead of lives and families. And they, they don't seem to stop. They don't care. They're not slowing down. And if this is how they treat veterans and active duty people, they're going to do the same thing to you. They're just starting with us. There is a silver lining here, though, and I've said this to you before. Veterans are pushing back the patriotic purge. The folks who've been fired, they're organizing, they were involved in protests. They're running for office at a very high rate. That's a lot of my work now is encouraging independent veterans to run for office, to enter the conversation, to become leaders. That's happening, too. So I think in many ways, it's a political misstep by Trump. I think he's screwing up here, and I think he's creating a base that's going to be really formidable for many years to come, because they're not going to forget. They're going to remember if he threw him out on the street, and they're going to tell others and they're going to bring others with them.
- [43:19]
Michael Crowley
Amanda, it is a red line that Trump has always trampled across, describing people who die serving their countries as losers and suckers, not wanting to be associated with people wounded, serving their country, not wanting to visit a cemetery in France where veterans of World War I are buried. I mean, it is something sacred, not just in our politics, but in our, in our civic life that Trump has never respected.
- [43:44]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Yeah, I Mean, it's sort of a basic promise that we, in theory make to our veterans. Right. In exchange for your service, we will provide you education, health care for your family and these other benefits. And here's what I don't understand. Like, I understand, yes, yes, our budget is unsustainable. There are going to be, have to be cuts that are painful eventually. But here you have a program that is given to veterans who are in trouble with their mortgages that is designed to help them. And, you know, you could make an argument for saying, we can't afford to continue this in the future. We'll keep these people on it. Right. But maybe not extend it to others. Like that would be a reasonable proposal.
- [44:22]
Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [44:22]
Reverend Al Sharpton
The normal kind of budget mechanics you would expect. But instead, there's just ripping people off of these mortgages so they get dumped with higher interest rates that they can't afford. I mean, that. That is just callous. And so, you know, maybe by bringing some media attention to it, there's people that will take notice of this because it seems like a pretty easy fix in the scope of the whole budget. This shouldn't be, you know, the biggest line item, and I did notice, and NPR's right up, that this will impact thousands and thousands of veterans in red states, especially Texas, Virginia, Georgia, and Florida. And so maybe there's a chance they can rethink this because it sure is callous.
- [44:56]
Michael Crowley
That's a great point. Eddie Glad, I want to thank you for taking us into the deep end today. We will. The four of us will have that conversation very soon. Eddie Glad, Paul Rykoff and Amanda Carpenter, thank you. Another break for us. We'll be right back.
- [45:13]
Nicole Wallace
Somebody I kind of trust said that they asked you to send in VP vetting papers and you said no, the list would be too long. Is that true? It is true. Why didn't you. Why didn't you consider. I mean, you're out there campaigning with her advisor. Well, the second part of that is.
- [45:30]
Amanda Carpenter
Yeah, the second part of that, my.
- [45:32]
Nicole Wallace
Response was, I'm not very good as the number two person. And so if the last thing we need is me telling Kamala, you know, the president, that, no, that's a dumb idea, right.
- [45:45]
Michael Crowley
I'd welcome that right about now. That was Mark Cuban making some big news with Tim Miller on his podcast for the Bulwark that he was considered. He was asked to submit paperwork to be Vice President Kamala Harris running mate at the time, but turned them down. Our friend Kara Swisher had a hot take on Mark Cuban's political future when we sat down for the Best People podcast. Listen to that. But he like, I'm always trying to get Mark Cuban to run for president. I agree.
- [46:10]
Nicole Wallace
Why?
- [46:10]
Michael Crowley
Why won't he do it?
- [46:11]
Nicole Wallace
I don't know why.
- [46:11]
Michael Crowley
I'm like, why am I backing up another billionaire? I don't know. He has some money. He's a great communicator. He's got a great communication. I appreciate how he communicates.
- [46:19]
Nicole Wallace
He's compared to a lot of people I've covered.
- [46:22]
Michael Crowley
He was such a jerk when he was younger.
- [46:23]
Nicole Wallace
He and I used to be, I.
- [46:24]
Eddie Glaude
Was like, you're such a jerk.
- [46:26]
Michael Crowley
Like arrogant prick essentially. And he's evolved. In celebration of evolving. And for more of my conversation with Karis Fisher, scan the QR code on your screen. You can watch the whole conversation on YouTube as well. Well, we're only at the halfway mark. Coming up next for us in the next hour of Deadline White House on this Friday, the nation's second largest city remains ground zero for both Donald Trump's push for mass deportations. Jacob, sober off will join us right after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.
- [46:59]
Amanda Carpenter
This is Comedy Bang Bang the podcast, the promo and in 30 seconds I'm going to tell you why you should check out the show. I, the host Scott Aukerman have a light hearted conversation with famous celebrities like like Jon Hamm, Allison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few things go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians as well as some new hilarious voices. Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast Listen every Monday wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:37]
Nicole Wallace
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- [48:34]
Amanda Carpenter
Listings February 2024 through January 2025 did you know?
- [48:38]
Nicole Wallace
39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving report. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight Infinity@Greenlight.com podcast.
- [49:13]
Michael Crowley
I think what the status is right now is we continue operations on farms and.
- [49:18]
Amanda Carpenter
Hotels, however we do it in a prioritized manner.
- [49:21]
Nicole Wallace
A lot of worksite enforcement operations are.
- [49:23]
Michael Crowley
Based on criminal information, criminal investigations such as forced labor, such as trafficking, and such as, you know.
- [49:33]
Nicole Wallace
Tax fraud and money laundering.
- [49:35]
Michael Crowley
When it comes to hotels and worksite enforcement operations, we prioritize them and put.
- [49:39]
Nicole Wallace
The criminal operations first.
- [49:42]
Michael Crowley
Hi again everyone. It's five o' clock in the East. You may be feeling whiplash from the Trump event administration's deportation flip flops this week, first rating people's places of work, then saying locations like farms and hotels and leisure are off the table, and then reversing course and saying those places are on the table, they're fair game again, just like you heard from border czar Tom Holman. That whiplash and the fear that accompanies it for immigrant communities and families is being felt deeply around the country, but especially in Los Angeles, which has been the epicenter these past two weeks of clashes over Donald Trump's hardline immigration tactics. Los Angeles has seen ICE raids continue and businesses are now feeling the heat, Bloomberg News reports this quote in downtown LA's fashion district, where ICE raids help spur the protests, mills, usually filled with the buzz of sewing machines, were silent. The shops shut down for lack of workers. Many showrooms that cater to wholesale buyers are padlocked. The LA Fashion District Business Improvement District reported a 40% drop in casual visits to the area since a high profile rate on June 6, while attendance by employees declined almost 24%. Yesterday, a symbol of the city, Dodgers Stadium, found itself at the center of this story fending off federal agents. Members of Customs and Border Patrol were blocked by the LA team from entering the stadium as protesters gathered and chanted at the federal agents in tactical gear. Moments ago, the vice president of the United States landed in Los Angeles. He's heading to tour a federal building command center and meet with U.S. marines deployed to the streets of Los Angeles. J.D. vance's visit comes less than one day after a ruling from a federal appeals court handed the Trump administration a win. They said Donald Trump can maintain authority over the National Guard in California as opposed to returning control to that state's governor, Gavin Newsom. But the court acknowledged that Donald Trump's use of the Guard is not completely unreviewable. Newsom responded by saying this, quote, donald Trump is not a king and not above the law. We will not let this authoritarian use of military soldiers against citizens go unchecked. That is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. My colleague, NBC News correspondent Jacob Soboroff, is in Los Angeles for us again. Also joining us, president and CEO of the Immigration Defenders Law Center, Lindsay Toslowski is here. And the president of the National Action Network, the host of Politics Nation right here on msnbc. My colleague, the Reverend Al Sharpton, is here. Jacob it feels like, I don't know if your life is now in sort of dog years where every week feels like seven, but it is another sort of end of another week in la. Just take me inside what's happening right now today with the Vance visit, but also widen the lens and take me inside the week that has been had.
- [52:42]
Amanda Carpenter
So exactly two weeks to the day since these ongoing immigration enforcement operations began here in la. We're back where we were one Friday ago. This is the federal building in Westwood, Nicole, where last Friday, excuse me, last week, Alex Padilla, the senator from the state of California, was taken down and handcuffed by federal agents inside this building as he attempted to ask questions of Kristi Noem, the secretary of Homeland Security. J.D. vance, who, as you mentioned, has just landed here in la, is on his way here to see ostensibly what is happening in Los Angeles. But I can tell you, not only will he not see what's happening on the streets of Los Angeles, because he's going to be here for a grand total of five hours, an hour and a half of which will be here inside this building. He'll see the Marines, he'll see the beautiful jacaranda trees outside, the manicured grass. But he'll go from here to a fundraiser in Beverly Hills. And then from there, he will make his way back to Washington, D.C. and they have painted a picture, this administration, the Trump administration has, of a lawless city, of riots, of marauding bands of immigrants on the streets. And it couldn't be any further from the truth. It has been two weeks of largely peaceful protests with some clashes, of course, between local law enforcement that have been put in, between Marines like the ones behind me and the National Guard troops that are on the streets of this city by no choice of their own and by their deployment by this administration under that Title 10 authority that the president of the United States has and that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals says will remain in place for now. And I can tell you that if J.D. vance did want to go to the streets, he'd meet a lot of people that are very unhappy about his visit here, about the deployment of the troops behind me here. And he'll be talking to only to federal law enforcement and those troops when he shows up at this building in less than an hour.
- [54:33]
Nicole Wallace
Now, Nicole, I know you have an.
- [54:36]
Michael Crowley
Interview, interview that gets to one of the stories that's just stunning to me that the federal law enforcement was kept out of Dodger Stadium parking lot. Talk about that.
- [54:49]
Amanda Carpenter
Yeah, that's exactly right. And by the way, I want to say we asked to go inside because if I could ask JD Vance a question today, I would ask him, did he see riots on the streets of L. A? Did he see danger? Did he feel unsafe? But we asked, and they declined our participation in the press conference today. Yesterday, the flashpoint was Dodger Stadium, a point of pride, as you said, for so I know you're a baseball fan. So many Angelenos, people call it blue heaven on earth. And it turned out to really be anything but yesterday because of the presence of those federal agents outside of Dodger Stadium. And they were effectively because the Dodgers did not allow them to come inside after they parked out there and processed people they had picked up at raids earlier in the day. They ended up in between protesters and the gates of Dodger Stadium, which they could not enter until the LAPD allowed them to go out the back door. One of the people I talked to was Eunice Hernandez, who is the city council person for Los Angeles. There's 15 of them. But she represents the district where Chavez Ravine, where Dodger Stadium is. And she talked about why seeing those agents there was such an affront to not only her, but members of the community. Here's what she told me, Nicole.
- [55:54]
Nicole Wallace
The way forward is for the federal government to understand that immigrants are part of Los Angeles. The 1.3 million immigrants live here. We have entire economies that benefit and thrive off the work of immigrants. Dodgers, they thrive off the fan base that is Latino, off the workers that are Latino. They're not a detriment to our city or community. They are a benefit. They make our city thrive.
- [56:19]
Amanda Carpenter
They make our city thrive. That is not what JD Vance is going to hear today when he goes inside this building or when he goes into the fundraiser, fundraiser for the Republican National Committee today. And as a resident of Los Angeles and as a journalist who's out here, has been out here every day for the past two weeks watching what's really happening in the city. I wish that he would hear voices like that because they are coming out here and painting a picture of this place that just isn't commensurate with the facts on the ground in Los Angeles.
- [56:46]
Michael Crowley
Nicole Lindsey it gets though to where they've had political success. It is with the facts about immigrants as the fabric of our communities. And I've talked to people who support Donald Trump and say, well, no, no, no. The people in the country without status that I know are going to be fine. That's not who Trump is after. He's just after the criminals. That is no longer the case. I don't know that it ever was. But he is certainly pursuing people who have committed no crimes other than the civil offense of being in our country illegally. How do you inject reality into a political sort of tsunami that's already swept ashore?
- [57:30]
Lindsay Toslowski
It's really difficult to listen to the rhetoric of the Trump administration because, as you say, it is just not true who they are saying are being targeted by these raids in Los Angeles. Over the past two weeks, our team has been meeting with dozens of people. We have hundreds of names on a list of people who've been detained off our streets. Many of them have been in Los Angeles, living in our communities, contributing to our economy, with their families, many with US citizen children. For more than 20 years. Just over the last 24 hours, we worked on the case of a man, Javier, who has lived in Los angeles area for 20 years. He has cancer. He was out at a bus stop on a corner in Pasadena yesterday and was swept up. He was doing absolutely nothing wrong. He has no criminal history. And his story is not unique. Many of the people that we are seeing caught at Home Depots, arrested at car washes, arrested at these businesses in the Fashion District, are hardworking members of our community. They are our neighbors. And really, these raids are Targeting the heart of Los Angeles, the heart of this city. It's really disturbing to hear the rhetoric coming that it's targeting, you know, only people who have been convicted of heinous crimes when the reality is that is just not true. It's targeting our families and it's ripping them apart.
- [58:58]
Michael Crowley
Lindsey, when you see on camera how Trump's immigration authorities are treating sitting US Senators and elected officials in New York City, you have to ask, how are they treating people they suspect of being here illegally? I mean, do you have any anecdotal information about how people are being treated?
- [59:20]
Lindsay Toslowski
Yeah, I mean, the conditions for people in custody. Just blocks from my office here in downtown Los Angeles, where ICE enforcement is happening, steps away from our building. Just today, there's a federal building here. And I know last night more than 300 people were inside that building. Some of them who we met with this morning described 60 to 70 people sleeping inside a room. Medical emergencies happening, pregnant women, people, you know, as with cancer. As I mentioned about our one client, people sleeping with 60, 70 people in a room on the floor, no beds, the bathroom is not working. We've heard similar horror stories once people are transferred to ICE detention centers like the one in Adelanto, California, which is about two hours from downtown Los Angeles. People sleeping in the rec rooms, people having medical emergencies and ambulances being called. This is what happens when people are indiscriminately picked up off of of our streets using racial profiling. And I can say it is not just impacting our immigrant communities. We verified that US Citizens were detained at places like Home Depot parking lots just yesterday and held before eventually being released. This is what is causing those businesses to see such a drop in their workers coming. Because people are afraid to leave their homes. People are afraid to send their kids to school because they know that right now we are a city under siege by federal law enforcement. Things are peaceful here in Los Angeles. But for the fact that we have ICE stalking our neighborhoods, ripping people from their homes and their communities.
- [60:59]
Michael Crowley
Rev. A lot of some of the best coverage, other than Jacob Sobroff's coverage, which is the best coverage. But there's a lot of local coverage from all over the country, from places that maybe aren't in the news of raids, of really aggressive efforts to chase people through the streets wearing masks. And Elizabeth Warren tried to pin Pete Hegseth down on whether or not Trump asked, would he do this in 15American cities, what he's done in LA? And he was, I don't know, cagey. Sounds too Complimentary for what he was. He gave her non answers. Let me show that to you.
- [61:39]
Nicole Wallace
How about if the President says he wants to send troops to 15 cities, would you be willing to do that?
- [61:47]
Amanda Carpenter
Senator, I don't accept your hypothetical because it's.
- [61:50]
Nicole Wallace
That's a hypothetical, not a real question. You're the Secretary of Defense. Would you send troops to 15 cities? If the President thought, said do it.
- [61:58]
Michael Crowley
Would you do it?
- [62:02]
Nicole Wallace
Fifteen cities.
- [62:03]
Paul Rykoff
Again, Senator, it's a complete hypothetical, lacking.
- [62:07]
Nicole Wallace
Any context at all.
- [62:08]
Amanda Carpenter
You're the senator, and I refuse to.
- [62:09]
Nicole Wallace
Box myself in based on questioning on a hypothetical. You're here asking for a trillion dollars, and I want to know how you're going to spend it.
- [62:19]
Michael Crowley
There's Hegseth acting like he's on, you know, cable talk show panel or something, debating with a US Senator, asking him what his plans are if asked to send troops to 15 US cities.
- [62:30]
Kevin Blackistone
It is really striking that in a Senate hearing that you are asking for monies, your funding, that you can't answer something whether you feel it's hypothetical or not. The whole point of the hearing is to find out what you would do with funds. And when we look at the larger picture here, we're talking about some human rights and civil rights violations that are happening in plain daylight in front of the whole world to see they're not looking for criminals anymore, but based on race, if you look like you may be Latino or darker, we're going to just grab you up, throw you in a hole with no sanitary conditions at all. And we're calling that our protecting the American people. No, it is destroying what America ought to stand for. And it is absolutely absurd. And the act. Act as though there was some. These have been nonviolent protests all over the country, and they're the ones that have come with all of the tough guy talk and can't even defend a request for resources, as you saw with Higgs. It is absolutely outrageous what is going on and continue to be going on with this President.
- [63:46]
Michael Crowley
Jacob, I want to come back to you and sort of this contrast between what's really happening on the streets of la, what really makes up the country's second largest city, and the disinformation being peddled. What are the conversations about making sure that people know the truth about that city and about that community.
- [64:11]
Amanda Carpenter
The people, Nicole, that Lindsey Tislowski knows better than anybody that I know are, are the people whose voices, you know, that I think everybody here wants to be elevated in this moment. It's the personal stories. It's Pablo Alvarado who I spoke with on your broadcast at Home Depot after they raided the Cypress Park Home Depot. It's Jenny, who works for the United Farm Workers, who I met in Oxnard after federal law enforcement ran through Strawberry Fields with Blackhawk choppers circling overhead, not in some kind of targeted enforcement like Tom Holman said in that clip that you played at the top of the show. But there were, quote, unquote, collateral arrests because the agents couldn't get into that packing facility. And so they turn around, chase workers that walked out into the streets. People here, as Lindsey said, want Americans and people around the world who are watching this so closely to understand who our neighbors are, who our friends are, who our fellow parishioners and colleagues are in the city of immigrants. That's the conversation that's happening right now that the real LA that it's a beautiful day in Los Angeles and that on this beautiful day, it is a shame that so many people are walking around so scared about literally about unmarked cars driving through the streets, not knowing what's going to happen next and worried.
- [65:35]
Michael Crowley
About their kids, worried about their parents. It's unbelievable. I'm going to ask all of you to stick around. There is another immigration story that we're watching this hour. The release of the release of Mahmoud Khalil. He's the former Columbia University graduate student. He's been detained in Louisiana for more than three months. Now, a judge today ordering him free on bail, saying the Palestinian rights protester is not a flight risk or a danger to the community. He's expected to be released tonight and to return home to his wife and infant son in New York. Also ahead for us, we're on the verge of crowning a new NBA champion in America and with Donald Trump as president. I don't know if you know this, but no NBA or WNBA champion winning team has ever set foot in the White House to celebrate their victory. And while individual athletes have spoken out against the Trump administration, the organization, organizations and leagues in the world of sports have largely remained silent. Why now is the time for the sports world to use its very large platforms to speak up against what is happening in our country? We'll have that conversation later this hour. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. We're back with Jacob Lindsey and the Revel. Jacob, I'm just hearing that J.D. vance is about to pull up. Can you expand on why you were not allowed to participate in a press conference and ask any questions of the vice president?
- [67:04]
Amanda Carpenter
Well, you know this from your time in The White House, Nicole, that we were told this morning it was an open press event and then as the day, which means, by the way, for our viewers that anyone who RSVPs and does it in a timely manner is able to come in. But we never received an RSVP link or request. So we reached out earlier today and then we were told that it's the pool which travels with the Vice President and quote, unquote, invite only press. And so our understanding is he is now inside the federal building here. But we said, you know, look, we've been out here on the streets for two weeks straight covering everything that's going on. We would like to talk to him about the situation on the ground or ask him a question. He is going to have a press availability according to the schedule that was put out by the Vice President's office after he meets with Marines and after he goes and receives a classified briefing from law enforcement officials here. And we didn't get an answer other than, sorry, you're not invited.
- [67:53]
Michael Crowley
I mean, Jacob, there are so many big policy questions to ask. I mean, I would have asked you to ask him what the position is on leisure hospitality and farm raids where Trump has been on six sides of a two sided debate. I wonder too, about the new policy they announced today about banning or barring Democratic members of Congress ICE facilities. Do you know what the current answer to either of those questions is?
- [68:20]
Amanda Carpenter
No, because there's no transparency around this. Another one I'd like to know is how many people have you picked up off the streets of Los Angeles, number one? Number two, how many of those people have criminal convictions outside of entering the country without authorization? In other words, how many of them are the quote, unquote, worst of the worst violent criminals, you know, serial offenders, even people who have entered the country more than once without authorization, which is a different classification of an immigration crime. It's not administrative, but it becomes a felony if you do it twice. We don't know any of those answers to those questions. And we have asked repeatedly over the course of the two weeks what's actually going on, what's behind the reason that the Marines, U.S. marine Corps, members of the U.S. marine Corps are standing outside the federal building in Westwood across the street, by the way, way from ucla. I mean, I wish people could, could every day that we have these conversations, zoom out from these little corners that we're on to understand what's happening in L. A at large. And that's the other thing that I would like to know. What does J.D. benz actually want to see in L. A? What's he seeing outside? What did he see on sepulved as he drove up here from Los Angeles International Airport, passing through many ethnic communities, passing through many peaceful communities, residents of L, A who have been living day to day over the course of the last 14 days that are not under some kind of siege, that don't feel like they need to be quote, unquote, liberated, as Kristi Noem said inside this building last week. But we're not going to get the answers to those questions.
- [69:47]
Michael Crowley
But we could zoom out. Why don't we do that tomorrow? You come with a map and we'll zoom out and show them what's going on in every corner of L. A. Lindsey, let me ask you what questions you would have for JD Van Vance in terms of your ability to best protect your clients?
- [70:04]
Lindsay Toslowski
Yeah, a lot of questions for JD Vance. I suppose one of the most pressing for us is how is what the Trump administration is doing in LA making any of our communities safer? They are literally ripping people out of our communities who are law abiding longtime residents in our immigration courtrooms in downtown Los Angeles, on the west side, in the Valley, all over. They are targeting people who are doing everything the government has asked them to do, who are showing up to court and they are arresting them in those courtrooms. You know, all of the things they are doing are punishing people who are trying to follow the rules, who are doing the right thing. And my question is, how does that keep any of us safe? All it does is terrorize and traumatize our children. It makes people afraid to go to school, to go to work. So that would be my big question. But, you know, in a more granular question, we are seeing rampant issues with accessing people who are in immigration detention. More than 30% of the people we've identified having been picked up off the streets of Los Angeles have been transferred to Texas and other places. We often can't find them in the online detainee locators. Their families are unable to find them, and there are systematic issues with people being able to access counsel. So my question is, why is he afraid of the lawyers? What are they afraid we will find if we're able to speak to people? And I think the answer to that, not the one he would give, but one of the answers is that we will hold them accountable to providing due process for people. We will hold them accountable to the Constitution. And they find the Constitution, they find due process inconvenient to their plans for mass deportation. And that's why they are systematically making it difficult for lawyers across Los Angeles to access the people that they are tearing out of our communities.
- [72:05]
Michael Crowley
Rev to that point. The piece I can't get my brain around is the pleasure, the sadistic elements of this. I mean, there is support for deporting violent, adjudicated criminals in our country illegally, right? That is something that people support. There is no support for denying people due process. There is scant support 9% for deporting people married to US citizens. There is scant support to deport 15% to deporting people with children born in America. And there is scant support 12% of all Americans for deporting people with jobs. And that is where they are putting all their marbles. Why?
- [72:44]
Kevin Blackistone
I think that they have become tone deaf. I think they are playing to a narrow slither of MAGA followers and really not listening and watching what they are doing doing. Because again, you're just arbitrarily picking people out based on if they look brown or black. If they went to Dodger Stadium and was allowed in and started going around, a lot of the whites that would get at the ball game, there would be an uproar. But it's all right to do this to people of color. It's all right to ban people to come to the country from Haiti and other places, but you bring in 59 white South Africanas. So it's a blatant decision to do racial profiling. And on top of that, you do it where you split up families and you do it where there's no rights that anyone respects. I think most Americans are saying, no, wait a minute, that's a bridge too far. But they're not listening. They're listening to each other. They're talking in an echo chamber and not understanding that people don't want a country like this.
- [73:50]
Michael Crowley
Such a good point. Jacob Soborough, Lindsay Toslowski, thank you so much for starting us off. The Rev sticks around a little bit longer with us. There's some more breaking news to tell you about. A federal judge in Boston has blocked the Trump administration's efforts to keep international students from enrolling at Harvard University. That injunction allows roughly 7,000 Harvard students and alumni, alumni from around the world, to continue their studies in this country. Minutes after the ruling, Donald Trump took to social media and claimed that officials have been, quote, working closely with Harvard. And it is very possible that a deal will be announced over the next week or so. Harvard has not responded to that claim about a deal, but we'll stay on top of that story and tell you about it, if there is one, when we come back. One day after the Los Angeles Dodger blocked masked federal immigration agents from entering their stadium, there are new questions about the role athletes and sports organizations can and should play in the face of Donald Trump's excesses and extreme actions. Our next guest says that in this perilous moment for American democracy, it is time for sports leagues to step up that conversation after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.
- [75:07]
Paul Rykoff
Do you have any comment on Trump uninviting the Eagles to the White House after most of the black players decided not to go?
- [75:18]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I just actually just found out about it when I was walking up to the podium. I ain't really digested enough. But it's typical of him.
- [75:26]
Michael Crowley
I mean, I know no matter who.
- [75:27]
Nicole Wallace
Wins this series, no one wants to invite anyways. So it won't be Golden State or Cleveland gone.
- [75:37]
Michael Crowley
So that happened seven years ago. It was during the 2018 NBA Finals between the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Golden State Warriors. The warriors would go on to win the series, but that is not the point of this segment. Donald Trump was president and they were not invited to the White House. Game seven of this year's NBA Finals is on Sunday. It's been a thrilling back and forth series between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers. And come Sunday night, the NBA will have a new champion. It got us thinking, is Donald Trump going to invite the winner, the champion, to the White House? And we ask that because Donald Trump has never, as president the first term, has never invited a men's or women's professional basketball team to the White House. Not the warriors or the Raptors or the Lakers who all won titles while Trump was in office the first term. Nor the WNBA's Minnesota Lynx, Seattle Storm or even hometown Washington Mystics who play literally down the road from the White House. They could have ubered there, but other sports teams have been invited. College football champions like Alabama and Clemson visited. You'll remember they were served fast food by Donald Trump. Baseball champions like the Houston Astros, the Boston Red Sox, the Washington Nationals and this year the Los Angeles Dodgers also visited the White House. This week he hosted Juventus, the Italian soccer team, here for the FIFA Club World Cup. We're not sure exactly why they earned an invite, but they did. And as an extra benefit, they got to listen to him ramble on and on about Iran and trans athletes in sports. Even the super bowl champion Philadelphia Eagles, who in 2018 were disinvited after the list of players attending the ceremony was so embarrassingly short and small, even after they got an invitation, after winning again this year, and some players attended the ceremony. But again, no professional basketball team has been to Donald Trump's White House. So on Sunday night, Oklahoma City or Indianapolis will be the home of an NBA championship team. And Donald Trump may or may not invite that team. The winner, that team may or may not accept the invitation, and the full roster may or may not go. But if this trend of professional basketball champions not making it to the White House continues, it's worth our attention. That's why we're asking why. Let's bring in Washington Post national sports columnist professor of journalism at the University of Maryland. Our friend Kevin Blackistone is back. The Reverend Al is still with us. Kevin, you write about, about, right. About this in a more broad way this week. Let me, let me read from, from what you're writing, actually, let me first get your thoughts on, on, on basketball. I hadn't realized that no NBA champion team had ever been to a Trump White House.
- [78:28]
Ned Price
Well, when Donald Trump was first elected in 2016, I wrote then that that should be the end of any team, any sports team visiting the White House because there is nothing that he stands for that is congruous with athleticism. Right. Or athletes or sports. You know, when we think about meritocracy, when we think about diversity, none of those things does he stand for. So I'm amazed every time any team winds up going to a Donald Trump White House to celebrate its championship.
- [79:04]
Michael Crowley
I think it's more true now as well, because I think one of the, you know, one of the hardest lessons of sports, especially when you've got little kids, is losing and losing with dignity. And I think after January, after January 6th, there's absolutely no intersection. He doesn't belong on the stage with real champions.
- [79:25]
Ned Price
No, absolutely not. I mean, that's one of the things you learn in sports. You lose and you go and shake your victor's hand and you try again another day day. And Donald Trump has turned that on its head. Certainly there have been times in sports where the outcome has been disputed. And that's what sometimes makes sports great. Right? That's the, the human part of it, but never anything like this where you deny the, the, the winner, the opportunity to fully enjoy that. That goes against everything that sports stands for.
- [80:04]
Michael Crowley
Kevin, I'm going to read from some of your piece and then I want you to talk about what you've written today. You write about Jim Keady. It says, meet Jim Keady, former soccer goalie Coach turned activist. Keatty resides in his native New Jersey. He runs a century old eatery and watering hole, the Lighthouse Tavern in Ware town on the shore. He campaigned for Congress twice in the 2010s and lost. And once for the New Jersey State assembly and lost. But he did win a seat on the Asbury park city council in 2005. What made Kitty attractive to speak at a rally sponsored by a group called Refuse Fascism was his fearless progressive activism. So his tanks, rocket launchers and other gaudy weapons of war prepared to thunder down Constitution Avenue, funded in part by our multi billion dollar pro football league. Keedy, a one time coach and athlete, protested again today. He has the unbridled audacity to try to use the military of the United States of America to send a message that the military belongs to him and not to the office of the President of the United States and the Constitution of our Republic. Katie charged Trump's stirring applause. We must fill the streets and town squares across the country in ever rising numbers, not stopping until we become a movement of millions, not relenting until the regime is no longer able to implement its fascist program. Talk about this piece and about Kitty.
- [81:24]
Ned Price
Well, I happened to be out on Saturday going to some protests, and the first one I went to was at Logan circle here in D.C. and I was surprised to see Jim Keaty there. I know him, I've actually invited him to my class to talk about the connection between sports and protests. And he gave that very rousing speech and I just thought it was just so timely. And it spoke to where we are right now. And really what it did was it was a call to action, not only for athletes, but also for those for whom athletes work, and not just their teams, but also the leagues, also the ncaa, because college athletes are laborers. They bring in revenue. And so it just kind of, it just kind of resonated with me. And then to see what unfolded in Los Angeles with the Dodgers, I was so proud of the Dodgers, which is hard because I'm here in Washington, D.C. i'm a Washington Nationals fan. So to root for anything that the Dodgers do is a tough pill to swallow. But this was a pleasant pill to swallow to see them stand up and disinvite, or not even disinvite, but refuse to have immigration officials come on their grounds and try to, to sweep up those who they believe to be here without the proper documentation. And that being the, that being the only reason, you know, so, so many of our sports right now are international. You look at the rosters of the basketball teams that you just mentioned, forget that so many of them are from Canada, but also remember that they have some of those athletes, athletes have roots in the continent of Africa. Just the other day the Senegalese national basketball team was due to come here to do some workshops for practice to learn how we play the game better than anybody else. And suddenly they found out that their visas were being denied.
- [83:31]
Kevin Blackistone
Why?
- [83:32]
Ned Price
Because possibly because Senegal was showing up on the new, the latest list of, I think, what is it, 36 countries, countries that the Trump administration wants to bar from travel. Here There are about 5% now of NFL players who are sons of African born parents if they're not African born themselves, particularly from Nigeria, another country that may find itself on this Trump administration ban list. So these are things that, you know, the immigration issue in particular are things that sports necessarily has to stand up to. You know, the, we, we love the NCAA basketball tournament, which last year or last March when it was played, the women's teams and the men's teams, 15% of those rosters were foreign born players. So just, just think about that. And the perniciousness of this ban is that Trump's administration, once realizing that they would, it would strike athletes, started to figure out how just to allow athletes to get by their ban.
- [84:47]
Nicole Wallace
Why?
- [84:48]
Ned Price
So that American sports can profit off of their labor. Right. But anyone else is Persona non grata. So there are a lot of things that sports can do, I think, to stand up for this and not just the athletes, not just coaches here and there like Steve Kerr, of course, course, whose voice is fantastic. Popovich's voice is fantastic. But also the leagues have to make a statement. And, and I don't expect it necessarily from the NFL because the NFL has been in bed with the Department of Defense for, for many, many years in this country, which is why they, why they stepped up to, you know, to fund this vainglorious military parade for Donald Trump.
- [85:33]
Nicole Wallace
Trump.
- [85:33]
Ned Price
But other leagues certainly they really need to band together and step up. Sports don't stand for this.
- [85:39]
Michael Crowley
And last time they were much more active. Something I asked Doc Rivers about. I want to bring the Rev in on this. I want to read more from your piece. I have to sneak in a very short break, but we'll all be right back on the other side. We're back with Kevin and the Rev. Rev Kevin writes that this Dodgers outfielder Kiki Hernandez spoke out about the situation in Southern California. Quote, I'm saddened and infuriated by what's happening in our country and our city. He wrote on Instagram. LA and Dodgers fans have welcomed me, supported me and shown me nothing but kindness and love. This is my second home. I cannot stand to see our community being violated, profiled, abused and ripped apart. If only the LA Lakers or Clippers made these NBA Finals, the league might have been forced to say something of the same, what with the record of 125 foreign players on NBA rosters this season, including 17 from Africa, where countries have been targeted by the Trump administration's travel ban. Your thoughts on this moment?
- [86:38]
Kevin Blackistone
I think it's a moment that we can really look at the sports world and see how this president is so petty he will not even rise to the occasion of dealing with champions in sports that he feels is dominated by by people that he does not want to deal with. And I think that it is absolutely correct when there are those athletes that stand up to him and there are some in the leadership I know through National Action Network, NBA Commissioner Adam Silver. I think these are sensitive people that look out for the dignity of their athletes and I hope they stand up to him no matter who wins and no matter what he decides to do.
- [87:17]
Michael Crowley
Robert, were you surprised? I mean in the first term there was so much. I mean LeBron was a really good leader and Kerr and I interviewed Doc Rivers about why there doesn't seem to be any activism or much activism and he said that a lot of the players are young. They haven't seen it impact them directly yet, but he thought they would rise to the occasion. What are your thoughts?
- [87:43]
Kevin Blackistone
Rap you talking to me?
- [87:45]
Michael Crowley
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [87:47]
Kevin Blackistone
I think that now with the whole deportation on a mass level, I think that even the young athletes are going to start having to see what is happening because it touches their families. These people don't live on the moon just because they're an athlete. They live in real communities that their relatives, their friends are being affected by. And I think that they're going to in many ways see a backlash from some of these young athletes because now it's hitting home when you have people all over the country in the streets about these issues.
- [88:22]
Michael Crowley
Rev, thank you for being part of this conversation. Kevin, thank you for what you wrote. I hope we can keep this conversation going and track this if people start to speak out and stand up as I hope and expect they will. Rev, we'll see you this weekend on Politics Nation. Coming up for us, how the pro democracy movement can fight back against the toxicity of the right wing manosphere. We'll have that on the other side of a very short break. Don't go anywhere. As viewers of this program and especially the last two hours know, we pay attention to what happens in the manosphere because it looms large over our national politics and no one quite counter programs them more effectively. No one shows us how the pro democracy movement can fight back than the brothers behind the digital news. Galact Midas Touch. Take a listen.
- [89:15]
Nicole Wallace
Where I grew up, you know, my dad would say, you know, Ben, being a man is standing by your word. You know, being a man means you push back against the bully and you uplift people and you don't, you know, punch down at marginalized communities. I mean the bully when I grew up was never like the cool kid or the person that we were supposed to like follow. I mean, that was the bully that was kind of gross. And the right wing manosphere or whatever has built this whole thing around bullying and demonizing women. And that's just, you know, that's not okay. And I think more men need to go out there and say that's not okay. Shut the F up and just, and just stop it.
- [89:53]
Paul Rykoff
Like cut it out.
- [89:54]
Nicole Wallace
Like that's not okay. And we can't, you know, going back to what we said before, you can't hesitate with those things. You know, we can't be like, oh, should we be bullies? No, you shouldn't be bullies.
- [90:05]
Michael Crowley
That was Ben Meiselas. He and his real life brothers Brett and Jordi are my guests on the next episode of the Best People podcast. It's out Monday. If you cannot wait until Monday, scan the QR code on your screen and subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. And you can listen to my conversation with the Midas Touch brothers right now. Quick break for us, we'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are grateful.
- [90:39]
Nicole Wallace
Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen. You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are down. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad, free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply.