← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“The distractions simply aren’t working”
01:26:17
Nicolle Wallace covers the latest on the Epstein Scandal, Trump’s new tariffs going into effect, and the latest personnel purge at the FBI.
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Nicole Wallace
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- [00:58]
Mara Gay
Special offer terms apply. Hi there, everyone. It's 4 o' clock in the East. There's a moment at the end of the emperor's new clothes when the people begin to see the truth. When they start to recognize their leader is not wearing the finest stitching. He's just, well, naked. Well, today, Donald Trump is feeling the breeze. It's no secret that the very foundation of his political power is his unique ability to construct an alternate reality for his supporters to inhabit. But after weeks of deflecting, diverting distracting attention from the Jeffrey Epstein controversy, Earth2's population is waking up to the reality that their emperor might not be entirely truthful on this matter. Just listen to how he's still talking about it.
- [01:50]
John Heilman
Look, the whole thing is a hoax. It's put out by the Democrats because we've had the most successful six months.
- [01:56]
Mara Gay
In the history of our country. And that's just a way of trying.
- [02:00]
John Heilman
To divert attention to something that's total bull.
- [02:06]
Mara Gay
We all have Bill Barr to thank for ushering that word into the regular political lexicon. And it's possible Trump is right about one thing. Someone is trying to divert attention from something. Consider how irregular the process has been between the Trump administration and Epstein accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell, a convicted sex offender. A move to a ritzier prison that just so happened to coincide with her cooperation with the Trump Justice Department. Any meeting she had with Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, who was once Donald Trump's personal attorney. Even this week, Trump did his best to project just how normal everything has been. But every Turn. He keeps getting tripped up. Watch.
- [02:53]
John Heilman
Were you aware of and did you.
- [02:55]
Mara Gay
Personally approve the prison transfer for Ghislaine Maxwell that your Justice Department?
- [02:59]
John Heilman
I didn't know about it at all. No, I read about it just like you did. And do you believe that she is. It's not a very uncommon thing.
- [03:05]
Nicole Wallace
It's certainly possible, but it's.
- [03:07]
Mara Gay
It's hard to believe, given how closely this DOJ has been working with this White House and how many tabs people are being kept on activities that are happening related to this investigation. It would be a little hard to see Ghislaine Maxwell getting moved to this much lesser security prison facility without the President of the United States knowing. Do you believe that she's credible to be listening to? Your deputy Attorney General sat down with her recently.
- [03:32]
John Heilman
Well, he's. Let me tell you, he's a very talented man. His name is Todd Blanche. Whatever he asks would be totally appropriate. And it's not an uncommon thing to do that.
- [03:40]
Nicole Wallace
First of all, the Deputy Attorney General never interviews anybody, okay? That's done by line assistance, not by the Deputy Attorney General of the United States, who's supposed to be the Chief Operating Officer of the Justice Department.
- [03:50]
John Heilman
I didn't discuss it with him, but anything he talked about with her or.
- [03:54]
Nicole Wallace
The fact that he did that, not unusual, number one.
- [03:58]
John Heilman
And most importantly is something that would be totally above board.
- [04:02]
Nicole Wallace
These are not things that are done by accident, George. These are things that are done on purpose. And I think everyone has to start wondering about how objective is whatever the Justice Department is doing, and is it really geared towards trying to get her to give testimony that the President would find favorable to him?
- [04:23]
Mara Gay
So they're all legitimate questions. A sea of legitimate questions. Bill Kristol lays them out like this in the Bulwark quote. It is worth recalling that after reviewing the files, Attorney General Pam Bondi and FBI Director Kash Patel ordered FBI agents to black out every mention of Trump, according to Bloomberg News. Why did they do that? After all, if Trump only pops up occasionally in the files as an innocent bystander or as a subject of third party hearsay with no supporting or corroborating evidence, why the need to black out the mentions? If Trump did nothing concerning while spending time with sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein, as Ghislaine Maxwell is reported to have told Deputy AG Todd Blanche before being moved to a far nicer federal prison facility, then what is the problem? Why not just release the files, let Trump debunk whatever unverified suggestions may be in there and avoid accusations of a cover up, perhaps because the files tell us more about the Trump Epstein relationship, perhaps because they suggest Trump has something to hide. We don't know the answers to those questions yet, but the fact that they're being asked even among Trump's most devoted supporters is an indication that the distractions simply are not working and that perhaps people are starting to realize Trump isn't wearing the finest stitching after all. That is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Staff writer at the Atlantic and author of the Atlantic Daily Newsletter, David Graham is here with an incredible new piece on this very topic. Also joining us is opinion writer for the New York Times, MSNBC political analyst Mara Gay, and Puck News chief political columnist, MSNBC national affairs analyst John Heilman is here. John, I'm going to start with you because you've sort of been my wingman on this story, which I was very late to, I have to say. I covered it during the first term as a heinous crime that was being investigated and prosecuted. And a lot of the victims made harrowing appearances on the Today show. And I remember watching them in tears. But I hadn't really understood something that you helped me understand how central this cover up and Trump's role in unpacking it was to Trump's face. And I wonder where you see that push and pull now that members have been sent home because of the Epstein story. I mean, the reason they were sent home to their districts where they are right now early, was because Speaker Johnson wanted to get them out of Washington. But they're being confronted with questions about this, everyone from Nancy Mace to Congressman Flood and beyond.
- [07:07]
Nicole Wallace
Well, first, Nicole, I'd like to thank you. And I mean that in the most sarcastic way possible with that opening script of yours, which summoned up images. Can we not do images of Trump and naked? You know, the emperor has no clothes at the end. The two words Trump and naked, I would just rather not have them in the same, not just the same sentence, but the same paragraph, the same show. If we could just like stay away from that. I know you got, I understand the appeal of that imagery, the emperor in his new clothes, but it just takes me to a place I don't want to go.
- [07:41]
Mara Gay
Fair.
- [07:44]
Nicole Wallace
I think that you're asking all the right questions. And part of the challenge here continues.
- [07:50]
John Heilman
To be.
- [07:53]
Nicole Wallace
The absence of the questions are mounting. The questions are getting greater and greater and more and more pointed because.
- [08:02]
John Heilman
Because.
- [08:03]
Nicole Wallace
The answers are not getting any clearer. But the questions, the sheer volume of them and the obviousness of them is making it kind of difficult to reach any conclusions just on the logical basis other than what I've been saying to you all along, which is, you know, Trump is taking on water on this matter in a substantial way. He's taking on water across the board. This is, you know, you were talking about a lot of the polling yesterday on the show. We see it, you know, in the, his losing ground with young men. We see it across the board in his approval ratings. We see it anecdotally in these town halls. We see the manosphere turning against him. We see all these things happening. And you know, Trump has a veryhas always had a very acute sense of his own, of what moves his base, what moves his core support. He knows that this is a dangerous issue for him, and yet he continues to do things that only make the situation worse for him, that only raise further suspicion, that only raise more of the questions that we're talking about here, which when someone, again, Trump is not the most rational creature in a lot of cases, but when it comes to his political survival, he's always been very rational and he's made trade offs all along the way in order to maintain the strength that has kept him in our politics and at the forefront of our politics for the past decade. He's now making choices that are hurting him politically day after day after day. And there is only one logical conclusion. Again, I've said this before on the show and I feel like I've broken record, but there's only one logical conclusion, which is that whatever is on the other side, whatever, if he made decisions that would the opposite decisions of the decisions he's making now, which are hurting him politically, that if he made those decisions, that the political cost to him, and who knows, maybe the legal cost to him, I don't know. But whatever the various costs, the psychic costs, emotional costs, political costs, legal costs would be greater. And that, I think, continues to be the case. There's no other logical explanation for what he has been doing other than that he is afraid of what full disclosure of what is in the Epstein files would bring to him. And I think that his base is sees that they are very, as you said, intimately connected to this story and to this issue. They care about it a lot. They listen to what he said. They listen to what Cash Patel said. They listen to what Dan Bongino said. They saw Trump appoint those two guys to the top two positions at the FBI. They had a lot of reasonable expectations about what would happen. And now they are seeing very clearly that they are being gaslit and lied to, and that Trump is doing things that are not in his own interest. And they are asking the same questions we are and drawing the same logical inferences. They are not conclusions. They are not based on facts, because we don't have the answers yet, but they are coming. This is a rare moment where you and me and the Trump base and anybody who's being logical are all in the same place. They're like, something stinks here. And that's, I think, just inescapable.
- [11:15]
Mara Gay
Yes. And a million more things to say about that. I'm sorry, not sorry, for the Emperor's New Clothes. David Graham, you've written a brilliant piece on this very dynamic. I want to read a big chunk of it, and then we'll talk about it. You write. As the Epstein story's lock on headlines enters its second month, the President has employed three main tactics to try to dislodge it. First, he has ordered his supporters to stop talking about Epstein. Second, Trump has tried to change the subject, whether that's attempting to breathe new life into his claims of a Russia hoax, threatening to federalize the District of Columbia, or taking a walk on the White House roof. Distraction has long been an effective tactic for Trump, but it's also a familiar one. Trump's efforts have produced an amusing dynamic where no matter what he does, many people treat it as an attempt to distract from Epstein, which only points back to Epstein. Third, the Trump administration and its GOP allies have tried to provide at least some information to the public in the hope that it will satisfy appetites. Frequently, these moves have just whetted them. This is exactly where he finds himself. And I guess my question for you, my first question for you is about the second, because this is what I find the most interesting as someone who's tried to cover him for nine years, the distractions are so grave. I mean, the accusations against a former American president whose wife has talked about the threats, who's had threat to people arrested near their homes, are legitimate news, and they're being covered, but they're not working in the same way that they have in terms of illuminating Trump's lack of command. And some of this might just be a more disparate media ecosystem. I mean, he doesn't command the lights the way he did during his first term, and that's a good thing for all of us, but it's a bad thing for him politically. So just expand on that second point you make. It's really interesting.
- [13:14]
John Heilman
You know, I think a lot of this Comes down to Trump trying to push the same buttons over and over. And, you know, the Obama button has been very effective for him. His base really dislikes Obama. You can get people going. There's a nice race element to it, but people have gotten sick of that. They're no longer provides the same kind of boost that it once did. And so Trump in this situation where he needs a distraction, is kind of trying to return to the same wells and it's not doing the same thing. I think people are used to the distraction playbook. And also, you know, he simply can't say, as he did in that clip that you played, that this is a creation of the liberal media. If anything, then, you know, mainstream media was covering it in the way you said you did as a story about horrific crimes. It's really only in the MAGA media from people like Dan Bongino and Cash Patel that this has been, you know, enlivened as a big scandal as some sort of COVID up. And now, now that MAGA has made this a story, they have to deal with it as one.
- [14:06]
Mara Gay
You know, Mara, I remember covering January 6th live and calling around to national security officials to really try to understand what we were watching. And one former senior intelligence official said, this is radicalization of what was once the Republican Party. And I said, how do we, how do we combat it? And he said, you can't do anything to combat it. Extremism can only be combated from inside its own movement. And I don't think anything has happened since January 6 to deal with the extremism and the political addiction to conspiracy theories and disinformation and uncorroborated things. But the Epstein story is a conspiracy theory on top of a true and heinous crime. And so to David's point about, you know, the deflections and the distractions and the denials not working, you can't call this a hoax even amid your most rabid supporters, because the underlying crimes are so real, they're among the most heinous and horrific, as we've all pointed out that we've covered. What is your sense of this political moment for Donald Trump?
- [15:18]
David Graham
I think that's exactly the right question. I mean, one of the interesting things is that when you spoke to Trump supporters over the past decade, you got this sense of zealousness that seemed to almost go beyond politics. And it became personal, visceral, including from people who were animated by sometimes by conspiracy theories, but other times by stories like the Epstein story. And it brought into his coalition Americans who wanted to know the truth about powerful people at the heart of American life and politics and were deeply suspicious about all kinds of institutions. They saw Donald Trump as the outsider who, again, let's remember, came promising to drain the swamp. So this was kind of like an Old Testament story for his own political ambition. And this is at the heart of what made people trust him to begin with. It is something that has animated the base for years. And I think, you know, now there is a sense of potential unraveling, of if he is holding something back about this story that drew us to trust him to begin with. You know, maybe he's not who we thought he is or was. And I think this is a very dangerous story for him. I think he knows that. And I, you know, I don't know what his involvement, if anything, was here. But what we do know is, as John said, you know, whatever sense of betrayal he thinks his supporters might feel at the full release of these records feels potentially extremely politically damaging to him. We don't know what that looks like, but he knows this is a bad story for him. And his inability to put this to bed, to change the subject has got him rattled. And so that may also be why he's acting in some unusual and even more erratic ways than we often see.
- [17:23]
Mara Gay
John, let me play for you one more time this back and forth, because I've also been educated in the last 10 days by White House reporters about how infrequently journalists, like real journalists, get to pose questions to him. But it did happen yesterday, and I think this is Kaitlan Collins from CNN asking him about Ghislaine Maxwell's transfer. Let me play this, this little clip again.
- [17:53]
John Heilman
Have you been briefed on what Ghislaine.
- [17:55]
Mara Gay
Maxwell told Todd Blanche?
- [17:57]
John Heilman
No, I haven't.
- [17:58]
Mara Gay
I don't know whether he came up in the conversation.
- [18:00]
John Heilman
I know Todd is a very respected person all over the country, all over the world, legally. So I don't know.
- [18:09]
Mara Gay
That's obviously not. Caitlin Call is from cnn. But he's getting. He's getting faced with questions about this thing that happens. Last Friday, I believe, was reported by Ken Delaney and Elisa Rubin last Friday for msnbc, at least. What is your sense of this response to sort of hide behind how well respected Todd Blanche is? It's got an Echo to 2016, where he tried to talk about the caliber of people he brought in. And he says Todd's a very respected person all over the country, all over the world, legally. So, you know, I didn't do it. Todd did it. Not that I have any stake in Todd Blanche's career arc. He's made all of his own choices, but there's a price being paid for completely subverting and cutting off the arms and legs of the Department of Justice and the FBI as anything other than his political apparatus. He's made clear that that's what he was going to do. He made these people walk through that gauntlet. It was like the Princess Bride, you know, like went through Congress and they had to basically admit that they were cutting off their own arms, cutting off. That they weren't going to be independent, and they were going to carry out all his conspiracy theories. That is not helping him in the midst of this crisis.
- [19:30]
Nicole Wallace
He grew this briar patch for himself, Nicole, and now he can't escape the briar patch. It's like. It's like all of these ironies are the same irony in some way. Right? You know, he somehow thought that he could kind of loosely promote. He was not like the way Dan Bongino and Cash Patel were. He was not constantly talking about Jeffrey Epstein on the campaign trail. But he would stoke it, he would feed it. He hoped to profit off it, knowing that Jeffrey Epstein. There was all this video out there. There were all these photographs out there. There's Jeffrey Epstein saying he was Trump's best friend for 10 years. There was all these pictures of him leering at young women. There's all this audio of him talking about his, you know, his. I would say, I don't even what the right words are. He has spoken in ways that are really skeezy about girls on many occasions, often on radio shows like the Howard Stern Show. So he knew all that was out there. He somehow got it into his head that in the end, he would just be able to somehow talk his way out of it. As David said a second ago, the playbook had worked so much for him that he didn't realize the game had changed. So there's that irony. There's the irony of building a Justice Department where there is no traditional independence there anymore, where people don't look at it. No one takes seriously the idea that Trump doesn't know every detail of what's going on with Julian Maxwell. No one doesn't take that. No one takes that seriously. Everyone assumed the moment that came out of his mouth yesterday he was lying. Maggie Haberman, who is a very careful reporter and a very scrupulous reporter, will never come out on television and say, Donald Trump is an effing liar. But the clip you played earlier was the closest, was the closest you'll ever hear of Maggie doing that. And then the final thing I'll say is that he created a press pool where now he invited all of these MAGA media people in and he knows that if he lets them ask questions, and they're going to ask questions about Epstein, too. So now he's forced to ask mainstream reporters, legitimate reporters, give them a chance at the mic and they're asking Epstein questions. He's built mousetrap on top of mousetrap that his legs are now all trapped in. If he had more than one legs, he had six legs and six mousetraps and he built them all himself. It's incredible.
- [21:50]
Mara Gay
Okay, so mousetrap guy, I'm going to raise you my, I'm going to come back to and double down on my emperor wearing no clothes. After that visual, I need all of you to stick around. There's a lot more I want to show you where this stands in Congress. It is this rare, bizarre little patch of bipartisanship, I think we can call it that. We'll talk about that on the other side of the break. Also ahead for us, the Trump administration declaring this afternoon that it has remade the global order. I guess that's true. True as America's biggest corporations are left with no choice other than to raise prices for American consumers and maybe strike deals with the White House, whatever that means. And later in the broadcast, Trump and his extremist allies in Washington making another unprecedented move to weaponize the FBI against those lawmakers fighting to help preserve democracy. This comes as we're learning that a select group of FBI agents were also fired today. Fired for doing their jobs. We'll have all those stories and much more when Deadline White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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- [24:30]
Mara Gay
Most of the voters that I talk to want to see the files released. I mean, that's what I've heard all across South Carolina. But they're blaming the president's administration, Bondi, for not being transparent enough. Do you understand why they feel that way? Well, I know that the president has asked for files to be released. Like the transcript from the grand jury. He asked for those files to come out and be released, and I guess the judge blocked it. Rebecca, David, Mara and John. I mean, David, we literally have a block later in the show about the threats facing federal judges. So deference to a judge's decision is not exactly central to this moment for the MAGA movement and the MAGA movers and shakers. But that's what Nancy Mays was hanging her hat on. I suppose that's what she intended with that answer. The point is this is not a Washington story. And I think when you go back to where Speaker Johnson sent everyone out of the nation's capitol back to their districts, would you be surprised if they came back and were facing more scrutiny and pressure from being at home than they would have in Washington?
- [25:41]
John Heilman
Yeah. I mean, I think you're going to hear them going to meetings in the districts, meeting with constituents, and they're going to hear more about this because as you say, this is a story that was not driven by politicians in Washington and not driven by the mainstream press. This is being driven by online outlets, originally being driven by people in MAGA circles. And I think everything the administration does to sort of try to give a little bit of taste to people, to try to give them enough to. To satisfy their appetite, seems to backfire. So, you know, yesterday, for example, we had these reports that there was going to be a meeting with J.D. vance and a bunch of top officials to talk about whether to release the interview with Ghislaine Maxwell. Then they canceled that meeting when it was made public. And this just makes it seem more like a cover up. So they can't seem to even get the messaging straight on how they want to approach this. And they're just whetting more appetites, I think.
- [26:29]
Mara Gay
And you know, some of this, Mara, is following all of the dots. One of the dots that's not tricky, that doesn't require any time down the rabbit hole is the role of Alex Acosta. Now, he was in Trump's first cabinet, but he was also, importantly for the purposes of this story, a U.S. attorney in Miami who did this, what's been called by many of the victims the sweetheart deal. This is reporting about subpoenas from this bipartisan quest for information. The House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform on Tuesday listed former attorneys general, a former FBI director, former President Bill Clinton, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. His people all subject to subpoenas for matters tied to Jeffrey Epstein. However, not named in the news release was Alex Acosta, who was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida, whose secret non prosecution agreement with Epstein created a spark that has turned into an inferno of controversy 20 years later. Again, if you're looking at how to and how not to defuse a raging wildfire of a controversy, leaving out the one guy who did the non prosecution agreement does not help tamp down the flames.
- [27:45]
David Graham
Well, that's right. We don't even have to go as far back as Acosta because we can look at Donald Trump talking about Todd Blanche. I mean, Blanche is his guy. So then the obvious question is, well, what is keeping Donald Trump's guy from telling us exactly what Ghislaine Maxwell told him? Why is it necessary for Donald Trump's guy at the Department of Justice to conduct that interview instead of a line prosecutor? So there are no answers to these questions. And the more Donald Trump talks about this without addressing these questions, the longer the story continues. No one, as you said earlier in their right mind could possibly believe that the White House couldn't release this if they wanted to. So what's the hold up? And it becomes more tantalizing just because that's human nature. You know, you're given half the truth. You want to know something else? This is a story that he has kept alive for years. And now, you know, the chickens are coming home to roost. I don't think he can really turn the page on this until he answers some of these questions. And the more he talks about, you know, his guy, the department, Department of justice, the worse it's going to get for him.
- [29:06]
Mara Gay
You know, John Halman, Trump said ON camera in 2017, don't believe your eyes, don't believe yours. Just believe me. And I'm not suggesting it worked on any of us, but being out there requires us to look at the firing of Maureen Comey, who was the prosecutor on these cases as well. Maybe it was about Epstein, but maybe it was just because her last name is Comey. That doesn't really answer the question of why he left her there for five months and 15 days. Right. She gets fired as this scandal engulfs the White House. Have you seen any reporting or do you have any leads on where she figures into all this and when or if she'll ever talk?
- [29:48]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I do not know what, what she, I mean, look, I do not know whether she will ever talk. That's one thing I don't know. I do know that the hatred for and scapegoating of Jim Comey by Donald Trump has been relentless for years, from the moment he fired him right up till now, right? Including this latest batch of subpoenas, right? His, his daughter has worked at the DOJ throughout this whole period and not only worked there, but has been intimately involved in this, in this case, knows maybe more about the details of the Epstein investigation, at least as much, but maybe more than anybody else in the doj. And the timing of the firing suggests, I mean, you know, Donald Trump, if you want to escape Jim Comey, if he wanted to fire his daughter because her last name is Comey, he would have done that years ago, right? Instead, he fired the father. Why wouldn't he fire the daughter? Instead they just let her sit there and keep doing this work until it became potentially problematic to have her there. Became potentially problematic. And I will just say, Nicole, you know, this is a rare moment, a rare thing in Washington. It is, you know, a truism that the COVID up is always worse than the crime. This is a case where the crime arguably is worse than the COVID up. And we don't know if Donald Trump has committed a crime here, but we do know that the underlying crimes at the heart of this story are worse than any cover up could ever be. And I will, of all the things that one can draw reasonable inferences from, definitely this cover up because of the crimes it is attached to. It makes the COVID up more morally heinous than many other cover ups we've seen before, which have been about financial crimes and other kinds of relatively pedestrian things compared to this. But it continues to be the case that Ghislaine Maxwell is a monster. And Donald Trump has the opportunity with every passing minute that we live here on planet Earth to denounce a convicted sex criminal who we know what the details are. We know what she did, we know, we know what she's in jail for. And he has never, to my knowledge, under any circumstance ever offered a public word of criticism or condemnation of someone who is the most heinous kind of criminal you can imagine and who's someone who his own base thinks is the most heinous kind of criminal that you could possibly imagine. He's never said a word about her. I got to say, man, that speaks volumes to me. And when it speaks in loudest, most loudly are the words cover and up.
- [32:33]
Mara Gay
Yeah, I also think she's been moved to a facility that prison experts say is completely unprecedented for a convicted criminal. Cover ilk that they're not even equipped to have convicted child sex offenders there. David Graham, it's a phenomenal piece of writing and reporting. Thank you for spending some time with us to talk about it today. Mara and John, stick around for the hour. Quick break for us. On the other side. Donald Trump's long awaited tariffs have arrived and have hit the American consumers with a wallop. We'll be right back with that. After months of humming and hawing and lots of performative politics and claims of deals that were imminent that never materialized, Donald Trump's long promised tariffs went into effect at midnight. Trump marked the occasion on Truth Social by writing, quote, it's midnight, three exclamation points. Billions of dollars in tariffs are now flowing into the United States of America. If by flowing in he means out of the pockets of the American consumer, maybe. The budget lab at Yale reports, quote, consumers face an overall average effective tariff rate of 18.6%, the highest since 1933, which will cost them an additional $2,400 a year on average. Despite that and the warnings of what Trump's economic policies will do to the American economy, business leaders seem to be bending over backwards to appease the guy who spent Tuesday wandering around on the roof of his house and shouting. Yesterday, Apple CEO Tim Cook presented Trump with a plaque with a 24 karat gold base after Trump threatened a 100% tariff on semiconductors, a key part in Apple products. It's just one of many ways Trump has repeatedly signaled he will be operating more like the head of a banana republic than the leader of so called big business party. Earlier today, in an extraordinary intervention into a private sector company, Donald Trump demanded that the CEO of the company intel, resign over his personal investments in China, writing, quote, the CEO of Intel is highly conflicted and must resign immediately. There is no other solution to this problem. Thank you for your attention to this problem. Exclamation point. Mara and John are back. So, Mara, John, we had lots of conversations about the price of eggs and the political peril it represented to Joe Biden and then Kamala Harris. And I think we'd all be stupid not to acknowledge the economic anxiety felt by Americans, regardless of their political persuasion or geography. And it is also true that the tariffs will make everything more expensive. A lot of things are already more expensive. I wonder, Mara, how you see this political moment shaping up for Donald Trump.
- [35:31]
David Graham
Well, I think that we're still in a period where inflation is still not as high as we have expected under the tariffs. And there are reasons for that. In many industries, the effects are going to take longer to set in. And so I actually think it's going to be the next three to six months, especially as folks get back to school and they're buying those school supplies, they're back in their routines, that Americans are likely to see steeper increases on just everyday items. And of course, you do see the heads of major American companies like Mattel warning about this already and essentially saying, you know, we've eaten as much of this cost as we can bear and it looks like these tariffs are here to stay. And I think that, you know, as much as the back and forth over tariffs was just disturbing and irrational and much more something you would see again from, as you said, the leader of a banana republic than the United States. It did provide some hope, I think, to American companies that, hey, maybe this isn't a permanent situation. Maybe we can eat this cost for now. I think now it's setting in that this is a permanent change, at least as long as this is the President of the United States. And so now we're going to see that cost shifting to consumers. And I don't believe Americans are going to appreciate it, especially when the cause is the president's completely arbitrary and personal obsession with tariffs, not underlying economics that make sense for the American consumer and economy.
- [37:08]
Mara Gay
I mean, John, his obsession with tariffs is only dwarfed by his obsession with the performance of the stock market and his perception as a person who will make everybody rich enough to have a gold toilet just like his. And let me just read some of the reality from business owners out there. This is from cnbc. Everything is about to get really effing expensive, says Melanie Abrantis, an Oakland, California based business owner who sells home decor. A lot of people think this tariff situation is not as bad right now because all of us business owners had inventory on hand. That's another small business owner. But quote, it's only just starting to trickle down to actual consumer goods prices. I think there's been a false sense of ease about this. I think in, in, in other words, that you know what's about to hit the fan, as Mara just said.
- [38:00]
Nicole Wallace
Right. So a number of things to say here. One, Donald Trump calling for the resignation of a head of one of the most important companies really in the history of America. I mean, the intel having been the company that invented and popularized the microprocessor and has the bedrock on which the entire digital revolution was built is an extraordinary thing. And it shows you, you know, a point that people often make, which is that the far left communists and the far right National Socialists want to control industries in just the same way. Then Trump's fascistic autocratic tendencies come through no more clearly than what when he decides to attack the head of intel and demand his resignation because of, not because he broke a law, not because he was convicted of insider trading, not because he was involved in a child sex trafficking ring, but because he did something related to China and money that Trump doesn't like. That is crazy and should make clear to everybody at the Republican Party under Donald Trump is not the party of big business anymore. It's not, there's no, it's another way in which the old Republican Party has been reduced to rubble by Donald Trump. But Nicole, here's the thing about the politics of this, which is the strongest argument for the notion that we should take Trump seriously, that he's not going to run for reelection, he's not going to try to run for a third term. That doesn't mean he won't try to stay, by the way, but that he won't try to figure out some way that his name is on the, the ballot for a third term is the way that he's run this economy. Because the reality is he is beyond political accountability in the sense that if there's inflation, if there's stagflation, if the tariffs hurt three to six months from now, a quarter from now, 2/4, 3/4 in the middle of next year, the people who are going to pay the price for that is not Donald Trump. The Republican Party in the House, the Republican Party in the Senate are going to pay the price, but Donald Trump is not. And finally, my last, last point which is why are all these business leaders capitulating to Trump? It is not because they are, they are in the thrall of Donald Trump. It is because they fear retribution. They fear having Trump put out a true social statement calling for their resignation. They fear Trump's regulatory apparatus getting in the way of deals they want to get done. They fear Trump targeting them either directly, himself or through the agencies he controls in ways that would be bad for their companies. So they are cowering in front of him. I think mostly because of that. It is a, they are attempting to get ahead of him, applying I am your retribution to them.
- [40:41]
Mara Gay
Well, I guess I would ask all of them, some of them are very, very smart to go find me an example in human history when appeasement has worked out well for the appeaser. I mean, I understand why they're doing it, but I don't know. Tim Cook, he seems smart, but I don't think there's a single example of appeasement of the tyrant working out well for the appeaser. Do you, John?
- [41:04]
Nicole Wallace
Look, I'm not defending it as a, I'm not saying it.
- [41:07]
Mara Gay
I know you're not.
- [41:09]
Nicole Wallace
I'm just saying, I'm just saying there that you're correct in the sense in the long run. But the way that American business works, Nicole, as you know, is we've talked about this for years under every president, which is the increasing short term focus of, of, of companies on their stock price. Right. So if you're a company like Apple that is dealing with what's going to happen to the price of the chips or, or other component parts of an iPhone due to tariffs that might get slapped on you. If you're trying to do a merger and you think Trump's FCC are to trying, Trump's FTC is going to get in the way. You're not focused on the long run, you're focused on this quarter and that leads to making these really dumb decisions in the long term that you're pointing to. No, it never works to appease the tyrant in the long run, but it can in the short run if all your goal is to make sure that he doesn't get in the way of you doing the thing you want to do.
- [42:03]
Mara Gay
All right. And that's why we find ourselves where we are with the statistician from the Labor Department fired. All right. No one's going anywhere. Much more on the other side of a short break. Stay with us.
- [42:17]
Nicole Wallace
I'm not against all tariffs, but I think what the president has done has not been very helpful. The Constitution gives tariff authority to the Congress. We've given the president emergency powers. But I think it's being abused in this case and it's creating a lot of damage.
- [42:32]
John Heilman
I saw it in Mexico, where they.
- [42:34]
Nicole Wallace
Don'T feel like we're treating them as a, a good faith partner. And Canada, there's so much anger towards Americans right now. We're losing lots of business, lots of customers, lots of tourists. I feel like there's some consequences to this tariff policy that we've not felt yet, but we will.
- [42:53]
Mara Gay
That wasn't the deep state, that wasn't a Democrat, that was a Republican. Given the magical gift of retirement. To tell the truth, Margay, that is the truth and an understanding of that.
- [43:04]
David Graham
Yeah. And I think it's also a really important reminder that Donald Trump is yet again testing the Constitution. And not only that, but our willingness collectively to actually hold him accountable and to make sure that he acts as a president and not as a king. You know, these tariffs are testing the boundaries of presidential power and that's something that he's good at. But we shouldn't forget that this is abnormal, that Congress does actually have the power to make tariffs. There's a reason for that. And so I think it is. It's critical that we treat this as aberrant because it is not normal, as we've said so many times about so many things Donald Trump has done. And yeah, that's a little dose of reality on the ground. Real people, people are hurting, real businesses are hurting. And America actually can't go it alone entirely, indefinitely. We do have to live in relation to others, including our trade partners up north and down south.
- [44:07]
Mara Gay
End of questionable legality. But that doesn't ever slow Trump down either. Margay and John Hellman, thank you for spending the whole hour with us. It was our pleasure. One more break for us. We'll be right back. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told Fox News in an interview today that Israel plans to take military control of all of Gaza. The comments were made shortly before a security Cabinet meeting. And the Times of Israel reports that the Cabinet is expected to sign off on a phase plan that would initially focus on seizing the central area of Gaza City. In the interview, he said that Israel doesn't want to keep Gaza long term. We want to have a security perimeter. We don't want to govern it. We don't want to be there as a governing body. We want to hand it over to Arab forces that will govern it properly without threatening us and giving Gazans a good life. This despite growing international pressure to reach a ceasefire as Gaza faces a severe famine, as well as Israel's own military leaders pushing back on this plan. The Times of Israel reports that the IDF's Chief of Staff told the Cabinet that, quote, the lives of the hostages will be in danger if this plan moves forward. Well, stay on top of the story for you ahead for us, the Trump administration's attempt to rig the system might be getting another assist today as he moves to weaponize yet another government agency to do his bidding. We'll explain when the next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [45:43]
Nicole Wallace
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- [47:15]
Mara Gay
Do you.
- [47:16]
David Graham
Want the federal government and the FBI.
- [47:18]
Mara Gay
To help locate and arrest these Texas Democrats who have left the state?
- [47:22]
John Heilman
Well, I think they've abandoned the state. Nobody's seen anything like it, even though they've done it twice before. And in a certain way, it almost looks like they've abandoned the state. It looks very bad. Yeah, go ahead.
- [47:32]
Mara Gay
Please get involved.
- [47:34]
David Graham
Should the FBI get Involved?
- [47:35]
John Heilman
Well, they may have to. They may have to. No, I know they want him back.
- [47:40]
Mara Gay
Nobody's ever seen anything like it except the last time it happened. Okay. Hi again, everybody. It's five o' clock in the east, according to Donald Trump. Because of that, the, quote, FBI may have to get involved in bringing back the Texas Democrats who left their state this week in order to block Republicans there from passing a redrawn congressional map. But the question is, can they really legally, as time summarizes it, quote, the FBI's website states that the agency does not supervise or take over investigations of state and local law enforcement agencies, as its primary mandate is to look into federal crimes and enforce federal laws. State warrants can only be enforced by state troopers, but the FBI may assist local law enforcement in locating fugitives. So that's exactly what Texas Senator John Cornyn, who's facing a tough political primary challenge, is requesting the FBI help find the Democratic lawmakers who left the state today. We are learning that the FBI said yes, they have agreed to John Cornyn, who's in the middle of a nasty political primaries, request that the FBI get involved in tracking down elected Democrats. From the New York Times reporting on this extraordinary development. Quote, the activation of federal agents could create a standoff between the Trump administration and state leaders. In Illinois, where many of the absent Democrats have taken refuge. It was not clear on Thursday morning whether federal agents had actually taken action in the case or what role they might eventually play. Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker was firm in his state being a refuge for these Texas Democrats.
- [49:25]
John Heilman
Can the FBI do that? Is there some federal law that these people would be violating?
- [49:29]
Nicole Wallace
I have broken any federal law, and frankly, in the state of Illinois, we're.
- [49:34]
John Heilman
Not going to let them get taken away. We're going to protect those Texas House Democrats.
- [49:41]
Mara Gay
So here's where we are. The FBI does not have the authority to actually bring the Democrats from Illinois to Texas, but there's a good chance that this could still happen, that the White House will still likely try to push the boundaries of the law and weaponize the FBI as much as they possibly can. In separate new reporting in the New York Times today, according to several people familiar with the matter, the FBI is forcing out at least two senior agents. Both. Brian Driscoll, who served as the acting director of the FBI before Kash Patel was confirmed, and Walter Giardina, who was involved in a number of investigations related to Donald Trump, including a case that sent trade adviser Peter Navarro to prison, are both being pushed out of the FBI New York Times reports, quote, the fresh ousters reflect in part a long running effort by senior Trump administration officials to dismiss agents and prosecutors who worked on cases related to the president. About the two individuals, The Time reports this quote, Mr. Driscoll had become an unlikely champion of the bureau, accidentally catapulted to the director's chair after Trump was inaugurated. His tumultuous tenure included fighting off what was seen as a possible purge of FBI agents who had worked on the investigation into the capitol attack. Neither Mr. Driscoll nor Mr. Giardina is eligible to retire. Mr. Giardina's wife died last month of cancer. An FBI spokeswoman at the Washington field office where Mr. Giardino worked declined to comment. The further erosion and weaponization of the FBI is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Former Federal prosecutor, former January 6th prosecutor Brendan Ballou is back. Also joining us, former top official at the doj, MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman is here. Brendan? Brendan, just take me through. Just help me establish some facts. One, do FBI agents get to pick and choose which cases and investigations they work on?
- [51:47]
John Heilman
They certainly aren't supposed to.
- [51:48]
Nicole Wallace
So what's happening here is completely unprecedented.
- [51:51]
John Heilman
And you already hit on one of the core points, which is that the FBI enforces federal, not state laws. So, you know, there's no above board way to see what's happening with these Texas Democrats.
- [52:04]
Nicole Wallace
I suspect what will probably happen is.
- [52:06]
John Heilman
That FBI and DOJ will try to.
- [52:09]
Nicole Wallace
Cook up some sort of bribery or mail fraud or wire fraud conspiracy between.
- [52:15]
John Heilman
The Texas Democrats and Governor J.B. pritzker. And that's how they're going to try to get jurisdiction here.
- [52:22]
Mara Gay
And on the firing of these two senior FBI officials, your thoughts?
- [52:28]
John Heilman
It's tragic. You know, I think about the message that this sends within the FBI. You know, when we were working on.
- [52:35]
Nicole Wallace
January 6th cases, we never talked about politics.
- [52:39]
John Heilman
But the sense that I got is a lot of the FBI agents I.
- [52:41]
Nicole Wallace
Worked with were pretty conservative folks by nature.
- [52:44]
John Heilman
But as they got into the case, you know, they saw the video, they saw the rioters attacking police officers. You know, they did their duty and.
- [52:54]
Nicole Wallace
Did their best to investigate and help prosecute these cases.
- [52:57]
John Heilman
Thousands of FBI agents did this and now they and the leaders who supported them, all their jobs are threatened. And so it's, it's really a scary day for the FBI. And it's heartbreaking to think about the people I worked with.
- [53:15]
Mara Gay
Andrew Weissman, let me show you what Michael Feinberg, who was an FBI agent and on a track for promotion at the bureau said on. On this program last month.
- [53:28]
Nicole Wallace
The only word to really describe that atmosphere is toxic.
- [53:32]
John Heilman
There is a culture of fear that.
- [53:37]
Nicole Wallace
Anybody'S career, whether you are a senior.
- [53:40]
John Heilman
Executive or a probationary employee, can end at any moment for a spurious political reason. And what we're seeing is that those sort of ideological purges that are going.
- [53:55]
Nicole Wallace
On are really causing an outflow of.
- [53:58]
John Heilman
Subject matter experts on a wide variety of national security and criminal threats. And as a result, these efforts of.
- [54:06]
Nicole Wallace
Bongino and Patel's are making Americans less safe.
- [54:13]
Mara Gay
I mean, all of that is true with these two political purgings, for lack of a better word. This is part of an email that, that Mr. Driscoll sent to his colleagues today. No cause has been articulated at this time. Please know that it has been the honor of my life to serve alongside each of you. Thank you for allowing me to stand on your shoulders through it all. Our collective sacrifices for those we serve is and always will be worth it. I regret nothing. You are my heroes, and I remain in your debt. This is similar to the outgoing messages of a lot of other senior FBI agents. Your thoughts today, Andrew?
- [54:54]
John Heilman
Sure. Well, first, I just want to comment because I was the general counsel of the FBI, and I just want to make sure people know the FBI does have the legal ability, given certain requirements being met, to aid state and local law enforcement in a variety of different contexts. It requires various approvals, it requires the state asking, it requires the Attorney General's approval, and there are all sorts of documentation and notification provisions. So there is a potential legal way for the FBI to do this, even absent a federal crime. The issue is, to what end? Like, what's the point? Because they can't actually make an arrest on state charges and there are no state charges. So it all seems very performative, as you mentioned, Nicole, and that there may be very sort of good political reasons this is happening, but very poor law enforcement reasons. I think the big story, and one that I think people should really not just think of as more FBI agents being fired for no reason, is the fact that you have the dismissal of the acting head of the FBI, the head of the sort of counterintelligence division, and other people. You really have to ask yourself, why? Why would you fire experienced career people? And the only answer I can really think of is because you want actually no pushback over an agenda that is contrary to law and FBI rules, because there's no question these people are going to follow the rules. And so the only reason to get rid of them that I can really think of is if that's not what you want and that is really the big story that this is an example of and you see it all over the government, not just at the FBI is a real takeover of the government from career people who are just going to follow the articles.
- [57:13]
Mara Gay
I mean Andrew, this mess of an Epstein scandal for the Trump administration. If you sort of track how the FBI has been dragged into that or through that. There was reporting two days ago that J.D. vance was convening a meeting with Kash Patel and Pam Bondi and Todd Blanch and others to clean up the Epstein Mass. And then they said oh no, no, no. That might be on the agenda, but it's really a meeting to talk about getting rid of these two FBI agents. I mean to me and to your point, that's worse. Why is the Vice President United States meeting with the AG and the Deputy AG and the FBI Director to talk about purging agents? And I want to ask you to respond to that, actually respond to that first. And then I want to read you a statement from the FBI Agents Association. That seems like a bananas thing for the Vice President of the United States to want to be associated with.
- [58:09]
John Heilman
Absolutely. It reads like a fig leaf. I mean that they have to come up with some reason. And my reaction is that's the best you have, that the Vice President has no better things to do than to be involved in the firing of career people. And remember the reports are that there's been no cause given, there's been no reason. And that, you know, having served at the department like Brendan and having been the general counsel of the FBI before you took disciplinary action up to and including termination, there were all sorts of requirements and legal requirements and essentially due process that is required. And again, what you're seeing, whether it's here or whether you're again, connect the dots, connect it to. What you're seeing in the immigration cases is an administration that is unwilling to sort of adhere to the law that requires due process. And that is not something that is just me saying it. You have judges over and over, up to and including the Supreme Court of the United States saying that due process has not been followed. And that to me is sort of the big story for the take home of getting rid of agents up to and including the former acting head of the FBI.
- [59:40]
Mara Gay
I mean, let me ask both of you about the national security implications of hollowing out the FBI. It seems that we always cover these for the political retribution that it signals. And the administration doesn't run from that. But at what point, Brendan? At what point is the Bureau and the department incapable of carrying out key national security functions?
- [60:07]
John Heilman
Yeah, so there are two issues here. One is, as Andrew is mentioning, which is so important, is that career officials at the FBI are being pushed aside in favor of unqualified political ones. You know, these are people that have expertise in counternarcotics, international terrorism, domestic terrorism, and so, so much knowledge is just leaving the building right now. There's also the problem that the FBI needs to work with partners domestically and internationally.
- [60:36]
Nicole Wallace
And at certain point, these partners are.
- [60:38]
John Heilman
Going to stop, to stop trusting the FBI to fulfill its mission. I think the one sort of silver lining, as it were, in these firings is that somebody like Brian Driscoll, you know, really very quickly became beloved among the rank and file within the FBI.
- [60:57]
Nicole Wallace
And so his firing without cause.
- [60:59]
John Heilman
I can't think of something that would more effectively turn rank and file FBI agents against this administration and what it's trying to do to the agency.
- [61:11]
Mara Gay
I mean, let me ask you, Andrew Weissman, what you're hearing about the agency, the last we heard was from Laura Loomer, who had tweeted or posted about Dan Bongino not going to work. It was the Friday after a fight that's been reported by multiple news organizations, including ours, between Bongino and Bondi, that angered Susie Wiles, is Bon Hilliard's telling, and Glenn Thrush's and others. What is your sense of the state of stability inside the FBI?
- [61:44]
John Heilman
Well, one, the clear message is do not speak up, just go along. That is, you know, that sort of fear of, sort of retaliation, fear of being blacklisted is something that you're seeing in law enforcement. You're seeing it in universities, you're seeing it in law firms, you're seeing businesses all across the board. But in law enforcement, it is really necessary. I mean, this is what you do, is you want that pushback, you want that discussion. And the firings that have been reported today, I think are particularly pernicious because when this sort of senior leadership team was put in place by Kash Patel, one of the things that I was hearing was that some of those people were. People were. They said, oh, you know what? That person's actually good and qualified. And they put people in who actually knew what they're doing. They have now been fired. And so the extent that there were people thinking, okay, you know what, maybe we have enough horses to pull this sled along and to get the job done and that we have some good people in senior leadership. That is today we're hearing that those people, or a chunk of them are being removed. And I agree with Brendan. The message is so incredibly demoralizing across the FBI, but including the Department of Justice and the intelligence community. And that is the last thing that you want. I should just point out the irony, the hypocrisy that this is an administration that faults the Biden administration and the Obama administration, saying, oh, look, you didn't allow any pushback. You didn't listen to contrary voices. And it's really rich for this administration to be saying that when their answer to pushback is, is you're fired.
- [63:48]
Mara Gay
I mean, irony was was mauled and murdered months and years ago. But yes, it is all those things. I need you guys to stick around. When we come back, we'll be joined by the Washington Post reporter behind the exclusive reporting we brought you yesterday about how the director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, dismissed concerns from inside the CIA so she could score political points for Donald Trump. Trump and help him distract from the growing Jeffrey Epstein scandal. The reporter will join our conversation next. Also ahead, there is alarming new evidence of what happens when Donald Trump's constant verbal assaults against the judiciary and individual judges go unchecked and the violent threats more and more judges are now facing on a daily basis. We'll show you and we'll play for you what that looks and sounds like later in the hour. Also ahead, why health experts all across the country and around the world are sounding the alarm today about Robert F. Kennedy's latest anti vax moves. DEADLINE White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. According to new reporting the Washington Post, which we brought you a little bit of yesterday, the Trump administration's desperate attempts to distract from its handling of the episode scandal are now raising huge intelligence concerns. The Post reports that Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, with the blessing of Donald Trump, overrode the concerns of officials inside the CIA and other intelligence agencies to release a highly classified report on Russia's interference. The report had been done by Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee back in the year 2017. And as the Post reports quote, the the House report is the most sensitive document the Trump administration has yet released, and details of how its publication occurred have not been previously reported. The document contains multiple references to CIA human sources reporting on Putin's plans. Such sources are among the agency's most closely guarded secrets. After the report was completed in 2020, it was considered so sensitive that it remained in storage at the CIA rather than on Capitol Hill. Joining our coverage, Washington Post national intelligence reporter Warren Strobel. He is bylined on that reporting. Brendan and Andrew are also back. Warren, first, I wonder if you could just explain to sort of the untrained eye, what about what Tulsi Gabbard released was so sensitive and worrying for intelligence officials.
- [66:20]
John Heilman
Well, first of all, thanks, Nicole, for having me on. There were multiple versions of this report and it was going to come out one way or the other. But what happened is Tulsi Gabbard, using her authorities at dni, opted with blessing from Trump to release the most open version of it. And the document, as we reported yesterday, does contain a lot of highly sensitive information about human sources and other sources that former intelligence officials were really surprised to see when they saw what was released.
- [66:50]
Mara Gay
And why did they do that? I mean, what is, I mean, what is their explanation for why they did that? What, Aha. Do they think is in here?
- [67:00]
John Heilman
Well, I don't want to be partisan here, but they have released, as you know and your viewers know, five, six, seven documents over the last month trying to make the case that the Russia's interference in the 2016 election, its preference from Trump, was a hoax. The facts do not support what they're trying to say. And I think this is just an example of Gabbard and the people at ODNI feeling like they have a case to make and they're just going to let it all out there. And they sort of overrode concerns at the CIA. It's not like the CIA wanted the whole thing kept under wraps or not coming out. But they had a version that had more redactions, more of those black lines that you see in documents sometimes.
- [67:39]
Mara Gay
But I went and clicked into all the links in your story. The version they released doesn't say anything different than the original assessment that Russia meddled in 2016 and preferred Trump, does it?
- [67:52]
John Heilman
Yeah. Well, this new, this report was done, as you said, in 2017 by just by the Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee. They were in the majority of the time. They take issue with the one finding of US spy agencies after the 2016 election that Trump, or, sorry, Putin, developed a preference for Trump over time, I'm told, by people who were there at the time. It's a very partisan document. And we've talked also to people who worked on the actual 2017 intelligence community assessment on Russian interference, and they very much stand by their work. So I don't think this one document, as you say, it doesn't prove A lot one way or the other.
- [68:27]
Mara Gay
It made me think of the Ratcliffe production. So Ratcliffe produces this document sort of about the tradecraft and it too corroborates the intelligence assessment. It has some criticisms on process, but I guess what I want to ask you is has anything been released that has undermined the intelligence assessment about Russia's role in the 2016 election?
- [68:55]
John Heilman
I don't think so. And Nicole, I covered this in 2016 and again when Trump was elected, when we went through the whole 2020 election, they've released a lot of stuff. I'm not trying to be partisan, but they have mischaracterized what is in the stuff they've released. They've come conflated things and I don't think, you know, as your viewers know, there's like a five volume bipartisan Senate intelligence can report on all this as a Mullen investigation, the Durham investigation. I don't think anything they've released over the last four or five weeks has fundamentally changed what we know.
- [69:27]
Mara Gay
Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any partisan overlay to Marco Rubio's work product, which he described at the time as the, quote, most comprehensive look at the intelligence assessment and all of the tradecraft and spy craft and substance. And so I think that what everyone is releasing simply seems to affirm what was investigated by John Durham, who was handpicked by Bill Barr and accompanied to Italy and other foreign destinations by Bill Barr and what was led by Marco Rubio. Can you just explain whether there is still work being done inside the CIA or inside the intelligence agencies to come up with a different assessment, or are they simply trying to recharacterize the assessment that's been corroborated by the work of Marco Rubio and John Durham?
- [70:20]
John Heilman
I think it's more that they're trying to recharacterize the assessment, release stuff that was only partially released before, or declassify further documents and to say that it makes their case. But again, I, I've covered this perhaps as you have for many years and I just don't see anything that made me say, oh wow, what we knew about this was wrong. And that Senate Intelligence Committee report, they spent years on it, it's five volumes, it's very thorough, it was bipartisan, had Rubio's name on it, and I think that's the touchstone document here.
- [70:50]
Mara Gay
Well, Andrew, I'm one of the handful of people that dedicated more hours than I care to admit reading the whole thing. It's more salacious than the investigation and the documents produced by the investigation you were a part of, I mean, it goes into sex and kompromat in ways that Mueller Volume one really doesn't. And I wonder if you can just weigh in on the established fact pattern so that whatever wild ride Donald Trump and his Justice Department and Tulsi Gabbit are about to take us on is at least rooted in foundational truths about what agencies now under three presidents have found it in the facts about 2016 in Russia.
- [71:32]
John Heilman
So before coming on, I spent some time going back over the Senate report, the Mueller report, and also an indictment called Active Measures, which was brought by the Mueller team. And there is no question, it is not debatable that the Russians were trying to help Donald Trump and they were trying to hurt Hillary Clinton. They say as much over and over again. The only other candidate they try to help is Bernie Sanders because he was competing with Hillary Clinton. But they attack Hillary Clinton, they attack Ted Cruz, anybody who is essentially a threat to Donald Trump. And of course, you have Putin's own words after Donald Trump was elected in Helsinki, where I believe he said, I supported him, I wanted him to win. And that makes a lot of sense because Hillary Clinton was really anathema to what we're seeing Russia do right now in Ukraine. Hillary Clinton and John McCain were really tied at the hip in terms of understanding the Russian threat. And so it made total sense that Russia would be against her and be doing things to support her. And you can read it in black and white. This is not something where you have to speculate. You can see exactly what this Russian team of troll farms was doing. And then, of course, we know that they hacked into the dnc, they got stolen emails, and then they released them at strategic moments in order to hurt the Hillary Clinton campaign. All of that is a given. All of that was found by John Durham, by Robert Mueller. It's been subject of an indictment, and as you mentioned, the bipartisan Senate intel report, there's nothing partisan about any of that. And so the effort now to re litigate this is a huge distraction and a dangerous one. And what is really just unconscionable is that they wouldn't even take the time in doing something that's so brazenly political to at least protect methods and means. And so you are making this country less safe because you didn't bother to go through what has been reported that career CIA officers were saying needed to be protected it in order to make this country safe because they wanted to protect our manner of getting that intelligence.
- [74:18]
Mara Gay
Which is an extraordinary moment. Warren Struggle, thank you for the reporting and for joining us today to talk about it. Brendan Blue, thank you for spending time with us today. Andrew Weissman sticks around a little bit longer with us. When we come back, the frightening ripple effect Donald Trump's assault on the rule of law continues to have for judges and their families as they continue to face a skyrocketing number of violent threats against them. The climate of fear for public servants is so pervasive right now that it is reaching places it doesn't normally reach federal judges and their families. Their fear is so heightened that New York Times columnist David French describes it this way, quote, have you ever written words that you thought might get you killed? Have you ever written words that you worry might get someone you love killed? That is the reality that federal judges are facing across the nation. Our awful era of intimidation and political violence has come for them. It is leading judges to sound the alarm publicly about what they are facing. Threats like this voicemail left to Rhode island Judge John McConnell after he placed a block on Trump's freeze on federal aid. We should warn you, it is incredibly disturbing.
- [75:36]
John Heilman
So you better tell little mother. Judge McConnell, I don't know who the hell he thinks he is, but he's stepping way over his mother boundaries. So I double dare you, mother. I've double buried. Tell the judge give me a call back. Okay. My phone number and my name is. Okay. And tell the son of a. We're going to come for him. His ass is going to pr. Dare you to try to put charges on Donald J. Trump. You son of a. Okay. You will get your asses whooped. Okay. I will slap the out of it. Okay. I'll slap your face to your face, mother. Because you know what, mother? Your ass is gonna go to prison. Okay. Son of a. And I wish somebody will assassinate your ass. Somebody needs a wipe his ass out. Stupid son of a. Your ass is gonna go to prison. McDonald, you little punk. Okay. You damn white son of a. Trashy.
- [76:48]
Mara Gay
Joining our conversation is senior opinion writer and columnist for the Boston Globe, MSNBC political analyst Kim Atkinstor. Andrew's back as well. We make careful decisions about what to platform and what to amplify. And if I could platform and amplify that every single day to see what is in the coalition that is threatening the rule of law, I might. I mean that is in a side. It is part is a slice of American political life that judges have to contend with every day when they leave their homes or drop their kids off at school. Or show up at work. That is what has been ushered in in this country. Kim it is.
- [77:36]
David Graham
And it is remarkable that judges chose to speak out publicly about it. But it also underscores just what a threat this is. Getting a voicemail like that isn't just a nuisance. It isn't something, something a judge can just brush off. Because we've known, we have seen violence, deadly violence against judges. One of the judges who spoke out was Judge Esther Salas, who had a pizza delivery, ostensibly at her home, only to have that person open fire on her family, killing her son Daniel. And what is happening now is judges are getting delivered pizzas in his name that cannot be construed as anything other than a death threat. And this is what judges are facing just for doing their jobs, administrating the law fairly. That's unconscionable. And I'm glad that we're talking about it because I think before now, people may have heard about these pizza deliveries and thought maybe they were just silly or nuisances. No, there's something far more serious. And judges are living under the specter of this every day.
- [78:47]
Mara Gay
So also, one of the stories that's tangled up in so many obstacles to covering it honestly and forcefully. I've been swatted. I thought a long time about whether or not to talk about it. And when I did, it was the first time. It was with George Stephanopoulos, who had a book out and he said, me too. And then the minute you say it out loud, you realize how many other people in the arena have been swatted. Swatting is when someone calls in a false either assassination attempt or shooting at your home and law enforcement responds in force. It's happened to a lot of people in the public arena. It is not a both sides problem. The political threats climate is directed at people perceived to be aligned with the pro democracy movement. And it is a globally recognized tool of authoritarians to use the threat of political violence to silence dissent. I guess the distinguishing factor now is that the FBI and all the helpers are now under the command and control of Donald Trump. So say Donald Trump and the people running the law enforcement agencies. Where does that leave us? ANDREW Weissman.
- [79:57]
John Heilman
The White House has said that they deplore violence and they would ask for comment. They say some of the right things about this is obviously there's no place to. But those are words. When you pardon every single person who participated in the January 6th insurrection and you say that the people who investigated and prosecuted are the villains and the criminals are in fact the ones who deserve to be free and lauded. You are sending a clear message. When you don't see the attorney general, the deputy attorney general, and the head of the FBI, instead of going to meet with a convicted sex trafficker, you should be having press conferences to talk about the task force that you have created and the number of cases that you have brought against people who are making these threats, whether they are going to people on one side or the other, that there's no place for it. And so this is a moment not for words, but for action. And this is where I put on sort of my law enforcement hat and think there is something that can be done about this. These kinds of people who are making these calls can be investigated and can be prosecuted. When you leave messages like that, that is a crime. And so this is not a moment to have just words, but to be doing something about it. If you actually care about having a culture where violence has no place, if you're saying that and you believe it, then where is the action behind those words?
- [81:49]
Mara Gay
I wonder, Kim, if Chief Justice John Roberts will regret not being in the public arena seven days a week pleading for people to stop attacking judges appointed by Democrats or Republicans.
- [82:02]
David Graham
I wonder that, too. I mean, several other justices, including Justices Ketanji, Brown Jackson and Justice Elena Kagan, have talked about that it's unacceptable for judges to be threatened. The Chief justice did condemn calling for one judge to be impeached, but he has not given the same full throated defense of the judiciary writ large, despite the fact that judges. We now know that Judge Boseman spoke to him about it in a private meeting. Instead of that leading to a decisive denunciation by the Chief justice. It led the DoJ to seek disciplinary action against Judge Boseman, which this does not in any way warrant. Disciplinary action is when a judge speaks publicly about a case. He wasn't doing that. He's speaking privately about the safety of judges. Excuse me. So, yeah, I'm disappointed in that. As the head of the federal judiciary, there is a role for the Chief justice to play here, and I really wish he would do it.
- [83:08]
Mara Gay
Yeah, that's Judge Boasberg, I think, and he's been right.
- [83:12]
David Graham
Thank you.
- [83:12]
Mara Gay
Thank you for that. The ire. No, no, no. He's an important figure in all this. He's inspired the ire of the Trump administration. He did seem to inspire Chief Justice Roberts to speak out, but I'm sure he is not immune from the kind of vitriol being directed at him and his family. That's being directed at Judge McConnell and others. Kim Mackenzie, thank you for joining, joining us on this admittedly dire and depressing topic. And Andrew Weissman, thank you for spending time with us on a myriad of dire topics. When we come back, there are major concerns from health experts over RFK Jr's decision to cancel hundreds of millions of dollars for promising vaccines. We'll have that reporting next.
- [84:05]
John Heilman
The gold standard vaccine has been done in less than nine months. People that aren't necessarily big fans of Donald Trump are saying, whether you like him or not, this is one of the greatest miracles in the history of modern day medicine. You're going to be very proud of this day and you're going to be very proud of this period of time because nobody thought this was possible.
- [84:30]
Mara Gay
Hmm. Donald Trump praising the new miracle technology that brought us safe and effective Covid vaccines. Vaccines in as he said, they're just nine months in 2021. Covid vaccines went on to save an estimated 14.4 million people from dying around the world. Scientists whose discoveries led to the creation of MRNA vaccines were awarded the Nobel Prize in medicine. They gave us promising game changer to fight future pandemics as well as the flu and cancer and other diseases. That's why vaccine experts are horrified that the Trump administration is now pulling nearly $500 million in contracts for new MRNA vaccines. Experts say the announcement by Trump's health secretary, RFK Jr. Was riddled with false and misleading claims about the proven effectiveness of the vaccines to sow the doubt that he needs to continue to push his aggressive anti vax agenda in this country and around the world. Joining our conversation is global health policy expert MSNBC medical contributor, our friend, Dr. Ven Gupta. Thank you for being here.
- [85:39]
John Heilman
Thanks for having me.
- [85:42]
Mara Gay
So let's deal with the knot of lies that this announcement is wrapped up in. Why not just say the truth about vaccines, but we're canceling it anyway? Why do they need the disinformation to push their agenda?
- [86:02]
John Heilman
Well, you know, Nicole, I've been thinking about the same thing. And my conclusion is they have built a lot of their public identity, whether it's RFK Jr. Whether it's his main medical leaders, Dr. Oz, Marty Macri, the head of the FDA commissioner or the head of the FDA. Their entire public identity and the reason why they're in their positions is because they took a stance against these MRNA vaccines, not based on any evidence, but because that was their path to notoriety, as their path to recurrent positions is they took a firm stance against it. They've now been selected to these major leadership positions. So that's why they have to this is the end game. And to your broader point, this, it's internally inconsistent. They're actually saying they're going to keep MRNA technology investments for cancer treatment purposes or prevention purposes. They're not going to do it though for infectious disease, to your point on Covid and flu. But they're also drawing skepticism and sowing doubt on the inherent technology itself. So why is it okay to nix the investments for Covenant Flu but not for cancer if you're worried about the technology itself? Doesn't make any sense. It's the same technology technology, just different applications. So it's internally inconsistent and they built their entire identities around doing this.
- [87:16]
Mara Gay
I just want to make sure our viewers understand how completely political this is as well. Here are some prominent Trump Republican allies touting the vaccine.
- [87:26]
John Heilman
My view now we should continue to treat Covid seriously. We should take reasonable steps to stop the spread of the disposition disease when it comes to vaccines. I believe in vaccines. I've been vaccinated. My wife has been vaccinated. My parents have been vaccinated. Her parents have been vaccinated.
- [87:43]
Nicole Wallace
Every one of us on this subcommittee.
- [87:45]
Mara Gay
Should look our colleagues in the eye.
- [87:47]
Nicole Wallace
And say that there is bipartisan agreement.
- [87:50]
Mara Gay
On this subcommittee that it was the vaccine that ended this pandemic.
- [87:54]
John Heilman
The vaccine saves lives.
- [87:58]
Nicole Wallace
Operation Warp Speed has brought to our country three effective vaccines.
- [88:03]
John Heilman
It is a big part of our.
- [88:04]
Nicole Wallace
Economic recovery, our health care recovery, getting the country back on a normal track. It is the answer to the prayers of the American people.
- [88:14]
Mara Gay
What does it mean for science when politicians will say whatever the dear leader wants them to say about a vaccine? Obviously that was a different time. Donald Trump thought he was going to get the call credit for the vaccine for Operation Warp Speed. So they said those things. I believe at least one of them is a doctor. I think John Barrasso, maybe I'm wrong about that. But what does it mean for science when political leaders only say things about vaccines if they will please the politician in charge?
- [88:46]
John Heilman
Well Nicole, you know, incredible innovation in medicine MRNA technology didn't just have happen in a nine month period of what the president said earlier. It was actually years, decades of basic science research that allowed for that nimbleness in the setting of a crisis. But yes, it took 20 years of investment and that's not going to happen. To your point, your tee up here, if we know that every 48 years we're going to have somebody in the White House that's going to draw skepticism on basic NIH funding for cancer chemotherapy or for MRNA vaccine, then who's going to invest in it? Who's going to have the patience to invest in it? If one day we have the lights on and then a few years later lights are off, that doesn't jive with the time horizon of basic medical innovation, which requires years of investment.
- [89:33]
Mara Gay
It's a really scary moment. We're going to need to call on you to talk us through all of it. Dr. Van Gupta being Gupta, thank you for coming back. Thank you for talking to us today. One more break. We'll be right back. Just a reminder, MSNBC's senior national and political correspondent Jacob Soborough is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. He brings us some exclusive new reporting. Scan the QR code on your screen or download it wherever you get your podcast. I hope you'll listen and let me know on Bluesky or Instagram what you think of the conversation. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.
- [90:16]
John Heilman
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